First, I declare my interests as recorded in the register with one important addition as of this moment. I am delighted and honoured to have been asked to serve as chairman of the independent company set up to oversee the implementation of the McDonald’s apprenticeship programme, following the company’s announcement in January that it is set to become the UK’s biggest provider of apprenticeships. This year, McDonald’s will provide apprenticeships in multiskilled hospitality for up to 6,000 of its 71,000 UK workforce, increasing to up to 10,000 a year from next year. Staff will enjoy the opportunity to gain a valuable nationally recognised qualification that is equivalent to five GCSEs at grades A to C. I thought that I should explain the situation, as the qualification recognises job-specific skills acquired through workplace training, combined with GCSE-equivalent maths and English, and will be accredited by the leading awarding body City and Guilds.

Apprenticeships come in many shapes and sizes, as the Government’s newly appointed enterprise tsar would no doubt be able to confirm were he already a Member of this House. Different apprenticeships suit different individuals, but I believe that it is crucial that we should be clear in each instance about what is being demanded of an individual and what the value of any qualification earned is going to be, especially in the eyes of potential employers. Of course, the first wave of McEdCo qualifications will be the equivalent of educational level 2. Vocational qualifications may vary in the level of attainment that they signify, but the apprenticeships that lead up to them generally have numerous features in common, which leads me directly on to the substance of this group of amendments.

As matters stand, there is no clear and concise definition in the Bill of an apprenticeship. Amendments 1 and 13 would define “apprenticeship”, because there is no statutory definition. Amendments 3, 6, 57, 61, 178 and 208 would ensure that some element of workplace training is included in apprenticeship training. Amendment 70 would ensure that, when careers advice is given on an apprenticeship, it is taken into account that the apprenticeship is defined as training that will lead to,

“competence in a chosen trade, profession or occupation”.

We are trying with these amendments to set out in a readily understood form what we believe most people would regard as the essential features of a meaningful apprenticeship. It should be a job. It should offer a combination of on-the-job and off-the-job training. There should be substantial employer engagement. It should lead to a recognised level of proficiency, clearly expressed in terms of the equivalent educational attainment. Standards must be robustly and rigorously monitored.

Ideally, these matters should be discussed, and ultimately resolved, far above the usual party-political fray. My noble friend Lady Morris of Bolton explained why I could not be present—it was my 36th wedding anniversary and it was more than my life was worth to be absent—but I listened to the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Drefelin, when she claimed credit for the Government’s supposed achievement of bringing apprenticeships,

“back from the brink of extinction”.—[Official Report, 2/6/09; col. 108.]

That is fine, rousing rhetoric, but it is a staggeringly hyperbolic assertion far removed from the truth.

When I had the honour to serve as Secretary of State for Employment in 1993, I was able to introduce these new, modern apprenticeships at qualification level 3 or above, working in partnership with the private sector. Our ambition was to have 150,000 places at any one time. From what was effectively a standing start, we had reached 65,000 by 1997. We made a substantial investment and this was a substantial achievement, greatly helped, I might add, by a number of bodies, including training and enterprise councils and the TUC—the noble Lord, Lord Jordan, gave me the vision of these new apprenticeships, which was brave at the time. We were also helped by the CBI and many other bodies. It is not a good idea to belittle all that was achieved in moving away from the old-fashioned system to a new, modern apprenticeship system.

I hope that we can take this forward on a non-partisan basis. It would make it a lot easier if we stuck to agreed facts and definitions. Ministers have changed the working definition of apprenticeships before—in 2000. I suppose that that made the figures look a bit better, but it underlines the need to be absolutely clear in the legislation about what we mean by an apprenticeship—otherwise we shall find ourselves compared to Humpty Dumpty, who said:

“When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less”.

We must seek to guarantee the integrity of vocational qualifications.

Amendments very similar to these were rejected in another place. However, the Minister, Siôn Simon, appeared to agree with our intention, if not with our precise formulations. He said to both the Liberal Democrat and Conservative Front Benches:

“The fundamental underlying principle of an apprenticeship is that it is a paid job … I understand and sympathise with the spirit and the intention of his amendments … This is an occasion—and not all of politics is so—on which we agree wholeheartedly on the ends and are merely disputing the means … I certainly agree that all apprenticeship frameworks must include supervised training in the workplace. There is no doubt about that, and the Government have never been equivocal about that. Supervised workplace training is central to the apprenticeship experience. It is what all apprentices have a right to expect”.—[Official Report, Commons, Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill Committee, 10/3/09; cols. 204-05.]

We on these Benches agree with every syllable of that.

On that basis, we look forward to hearing the response of Ministers here. I hope that they will feel able to accept these amendments not only in principle but also in practice. Otherwise there is a genuine danger that some of the qualifications awarded at the end of an apprenticeship may be regarded by potential employers not as a gold standard but as a very base metal indeed. I beg to move.

I cannot declare any interest in relation to learning providers such as McDonald’s, but I declare an interest as a member of the corporation of Guildford College of Further and Higher Education, which is involved in providing work-based learning in various forms. I would like to be able to give it a similar advertisement for what it achieves as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has given to McDonald’s and its training programmes.

We have a great deal of sympathy with this raft of amendments. It has been put to us by quite a number of those who have been in touch with us about the Bill that there should be incorporated somewhere within it a clear definition of “apprenticeship”. We are sympathetic to that point of view. It does come out in the Bill and is quite clear from different bits if you put them all together: you are to be employed and to have off-the-job training leading to a recognised qualification for a trade or profession. All of this is in the Bill, scattered in different bits, but you have to put the bits together to arrive at the definition. It would be nice if, somewhere early in the Bill—and this comes at the beginning—there was a clear definition of “apprenticeship”. After all, it started off as the draft apprenticeships Bill, and the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill now has all these other bits hanging on to it.

We are also sympathetic to the notion that an apprenticeship involves being employed, but we have some problems with that being stated blankly within the definition. It does not always work that way, does it? I refer your Lordships to an excellent report produced by the Economic Affairs Committee of this House on apprenticeships. There is currently a dearth of apprenticeships in this country. Employers are not offering them. How can we offer an entitlement to an apprenticeship, which is core to the Bill, for those aged 14 to 16 who want to go into one if the jobs are not there?

Over time, we can perhaps deliver on that entitlement. In particular, it is vital that the public sector opens up. There is currently a marked contrast between the number of apprenticeships offered within public sector organisations and those offered within the private sector. I know that the Government are conscious of this and are now trying to expand the number of public sector apprenticeships.

I hope that the noble Baroness will forgive me. She is very anxious about the exclusion of people with disabilities or learning difficulties, which we sympathise with. Could she direct my attention to what in my noble friend’s principal amendment amounts to an exclusion?

If you write into the Bill that they must be employed, it can create difficulties in this respect.

I am sorry, but I am asking how it excludes disabled people, rather than others. I take the point that if the jobs are not there, people cannot be employed. The question then arises of whether we ought to call these apprenticeships but that is a wider debate. I am asking how a handicapped person is excluded by the proposed new clause.

They are not, necessarily, obviously, but there are occasions when those with disabilities—as everyone will know—find it extremely difficult to get jobs because of problems of physical or other access. If you look at the proportion of young people with disabilities of one sort or another who are employed, it is extremely low compared to the general proportion.

I declare an interest as a member of the Skills Commission, which is an all-party group. It has done several studies of different areas of skills. When the Bill was introduced in the other place, the commission was looking at this. We looked in particular at what are called programme apprenticeships and of sorts of apprenticeship. By and large, the commission agreed that the sort of training that provided very little in the way of work-based training—in particular by further education colleges—is not acceptable.

We have concluded that we have particular sympathy with the principles behind the amendment. In particular, as I mentioned at the beginning, we are very sympathetic to having the definition of an apprenticeship in the Bill, but we believe that there has to be an element of flexibility to allow for the exceptions that I have mentioned. We have drafted a series of amendments that can introduce such flexibility to the Bill without running a coach and horses through its principles. These will shortly be introduced by my noble friend Lady Walmsley. While we have sympathy, we do not wholeheartedly go along with the Opposition in endorsing the whole raft of amendments that they have tabled here.

While welcoming what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, has said about it being clear in the Bill about exactly what an apprenticeship is, there is a difficulty, which the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guildford, has raised. As David Blanchflower, the retiring Monetary Policy Committee member, said last night, we have seen the worst month’s employment figures ever, with the largest, and highest percentage, increase in one month. He spoke of a lost generation of young people. We are talking about nearly 900,000 under-25s now, and when the class of 2009 graduates there will be more than a million. When we have this problem, we particularly wish to think about the issue that the noble Baroness referred to—and was raised by Rathbone and Barnardo’s—of not just children and young people with disabilities, but those who are on the margins. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to defining an apprenticeship as having to be paid employment. There are concerns, which we will come to later, that there should be some flexibility and that some unpaid programmes should lead to paid employment and could particularly benefit young people who might otherwise be disengaged from any idea of employment. While welcoming the broad thrust of what the noble Lord said, I think that there is that concern on the side.

I support all the amendments in this group. However, I want to talk specifically about Amendments 1, 3, 6 and 13. Amendment 1 seeks to define an apprenticeship to ensure that employers are compliant with the terms of an agreement. This definition is essential to the success of apprenticeships as it clearly states what is required of employers, thus ensuring that apprentices gain broad knowledge and interest in the specific industry.

The purposes of an apprenticeship are threefold. They are vital in making sure that apprentices develop the practical skills and qualifications that will enable them successfully to gain employment in their chosen industry. The contents of apprenticeships must be in synergy with the demands of employers in a specific industry. It is crucial that relations of mutual understanding and respect are fostered between employers and apprentices. This would promote the likely scenario that the employer would be willing to offer an apprentice a job in their company after the completion of an apprenticeship.

The proposed new paragraph (b) in Amendment 1 requires an employer to provide a varied apprenticeship programme that encompasses both on-the-job and off-the-job training. This amendment is of particular importance as it will give apprentices the opportunities to master their fields across a spectrum of practical and office-based learning. It is a common occurrence for some employers to state that many of the younger employees excel in the textbook application of their duties, but are lacking in the vocational sense. I congratulate my noble friend on this amendment as I feel it will be strongly supported by employers and apprentices alike.

The proposed new paragraph (c) in Amendment 1 seeks to provide apprentices with training that has the long-term goal of providing apprentices with an award of proficiency that is recognised in their field. This will work towards enabling apprentices successfully to gain employment in their chosen trade. The development of a qualification that is respected and recognised in the industry will give learners confidence in their achievement and could also lead to international recognition of British apprenticeships. This would greatly support and promote our young people, while creating a reputation for Britain as a place where apprenticeships are highly valued, which would consequently boost our economy.

Amendment 3 makes provision for supervised training in the workplace as part of an apprenticeship. The value of practical work experience in a chosen field must not be underestimated. By providing supervised training as part of an apprenticeship, the employer may offer further guidance to the apprentice that may not occur otherwise. This amendment has additional benefits to learners in the sense that supervisors may feel inclined to ensure that the apprenticeship is successfully completed. This is a likely probability as the amendment could lead to employers building a rapport with learners that may lead to long-term mentoring after the completion of the apprenticeships.

I welcome Amendment 6 on the issue of apprentices’ certificates as it makes supervised training in industry a provision for which a certificate cannot be issued in its absence. This provision will ensure that learners get a broad experience of what working in industry will entail. The difference between apprenticeship and the traditional academic path of study essentially rests upon this requirement. This amendment will also add legitimacy to apprenticeships and will encourage a greater commitment from learners to really apply themselves to their courses. Students are awarded certificates after successful completion of their GCSEs and A-levels; it is right that this should be the case for completing an apprenticeship.

Amendment 13 states that employers should be given the freedom to decide upon the provision of the apprenticeships in relation to the workplace. Employers should be encouraged to sponsor apprenticeships and decide upon their content as they have full knowledge of the skills required by the industries. Apprenticeships should have the status of vocational courses, which are on a par with academic qualifications and give learners a clear path to a degree-level qualification. This method could prove to be an effective way of destroying the unfortunate stigma attached to vocational courses in certain circles. This amendment also provides apprentices with protection as they will be in a position to make a complaint should an employer renege on the terms of an apprenticeship agreement.

I, too, support these amendments. I have added my name to three of them that emphasise the element of supervised training. We all know that the quality of an apprenticeship depends very much on the supervision that is given in the workplace; how seriously the employer takes the responsibility of what is actually happening to the young person. I am sure that many other noble Lords have heard, as I have, some pretty grim stories of apprentices being pretty well left to their own devices with very little supervision of what is going on and very little constructive learning of the trade.

I hope very much that the Government will accept the amendment and support the amendments in the group that emphasise the importance of the employer’s role as a partner in the young person’s learning. It is not just the FE college that is responsible for the learning; it is very much the employer as well. I hope that the Government will take this on board.

I also welcome this group of amendments. It is essential that we know what the Bill is about. I shall listen with great interest to the Minister’s reply to the noble Baroness’s question of how you carry on if you give an entitlement to something that does not exist. We have to agree on what we are offering an entitlement to. It seems to me that we cannot escape the necessity to define. The debate must surely be about what the definition is; it is not a case of whether my noble friend’s amendment should be accepted but of the modification that would make them acceptable.

I would like to try a line about inclusion. I think the whole House would agree that further education and training is a must; it is a necessity for everybody who can be persuaded or cajoled into becoming included. The question then is complicated by the fact that there is a mismatch between the demand for certain types of job and the supply of them. This mismatch affects apprenticeships.

Perhaps the classical apprenticeship is in Wagner’s “Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg”, between Hans Sachs and David. There you see a very small, self-employed firm in the shape of Hans Sachs, very much training on the job. My worry is that making apprenticeships all-inclusive may be a mistake; it would devalue apprenticeships, in my view. They need to be specific, as my noble friend Lord Sheikh was pointing out, and not a kind of class of further education available to all. Surely we can achieve the inclusion through other available methods: through further education colleges, training, Rathbone and all sorts of ways.

I end on one thought. There is a certain danger of there being a mythology about apprenticeships. Apprenticeships after all were originally about craft. In many industries, including those that I have been in myself—I cited the foundry industry at Second Reading—we have been deskilling, in the craft sense, for years and years. We have been putting in much larger chunks of capital in order to reduce the need for craft labour. We have then had to put a great deal more emphasis on numeracy, literacy and the ability to handle IT in all sorts of shapes and forms. I shall cite just one example. Lace-making is done very little by hand and almost wholly on large machines. The skill is in the setting up of the machine, not in the operating of it. Once you have set the machine up with the right fibres in the right places, the floppy disk in the end of the machine can be sent to China and put into the same machine made by the same German manufacturer, and out comes the same lace. The skill is in the setting up and the maintenance of the machines. It is entirely specific. I am concerned that we do not believe that in some way we can generalise apprenticeships to be the all-inclusive form of further education and training that is implied if we do not accept the amendments.

Briefly, I want to support the noble Baroness, Lady Perry of Southwark. I was speaking recently to, I think, a 20 year-old woman who had been doing a two-year apprenticeship that she had failed to complete. Her first comment was that she and her fellow apprentices very much valued individual supervision with their supervisor, but she did not feel that they had had sufficient of it. Then there was the issue of the way in which the supervisor treated the young people, which I will not go into now. That interview brought home to me the importance of our doing all we can to support supervisors in what they are doing.

In prefacing my reply I should declare my interest as a former apprentice, I suppose, so I have had some experience. Admittedly it was one or two years ago but it left a searing impression on me, in the best possible way.

I shall set the scene before I launch into the detail. I do not want to engage in a particularly bipartisan way but I can resist anything except temptation, as Oscar once said. We pay tribute to the role played by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt; unfortunately, I was not at Second Reading but I observed the point about his involvement with the modern apprenticeships. Yes, the numbers had grown a bit, but from a very low base. Unfortunately, only just over 27 per cent of people were completing their apprenticeships, so nearly three-quarters were not. Maybe noble Lords think that it is hyperbole, but I believe that it is right to say that we have witnessed a renaissance in apprenticeships, because 10 years on we have 250,000 and nearly two-thirds of people are completing them. That is something to be proud of. It needed to be done, and perhaps I acknowledge that it built on a foundation. That is fair.

There were lots of comments about the importance of quality, which I will address. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, made the point about employers, and that we need to ensure that we continue to generate apprenticeships if we are to meet the entitlement in 2013. I agree. That is why the Government have taken a number of steps to ensure that we do that including, as was specifically announced at the beginning of the year, £140 million for another 35,000 apprenticeships—15,000 in the private sector and 20,000 in the public sector. It is true that the public sector had 20 per cent of the employees and 10 per cent of the apprenticeships; I described it as apprenticeship-light, which is why we need to drive on that. I also draw to noble Lords’ attention that we have made it mandatory when people bid for public procurement contracts—first in construction, but we are moving on to IT and facilities management—that they will have to contain the number of apprenticeships and specify training. That will be another important area for generating apprenticeships.

I was interested in and agreed with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, about universities. Not only universities but schools and FE colleges have opportunities. Indeed, we have a champion for their promotion in universities, and another in FE. Some progress is already being made in those areas. We have created the National Apprenticeship Service precisely for that reason—to drive the creation of apprenticeships, and to be the one-stop shop for employers. Of course, we have also implemented the national Apprenticeship Vacancy Matching Service, where young people, teachers and parents can check what apprenticeships are available and employers can register their vacancies. It is in its early days, but it is already beginning to have some success. There is no doubt that, in the current environment, we will need to push as hard as we can to ensure that employers understand the need for apprenticeships. By and large, we are in a different situation from that in previous recessions. There seems to be recognition that apprenticeships will provide the core skills of the future.

The best thing I can say about the concerns on disability is that we will address a lot of them on the fourth group of amendments. I do not want to anticipate too much of that debate, except to make it clear that it would be totally wrong to create an environment in which people with disabilities were excluded from apprenticeship opportunities, of course.

Amendment 1 proposes a definition of an apprenticeship, and Amendment 13 would require that the proposed components of the definition were inserted in the interpretation of an apprenticeship framework. Amendment 70 uses part of that definition in relation to Clause 35, which regards careers education. I understand the intention behind these amendments, but we consider such a definition unnecessary.

Part 1 sets out the four key elements that together provide the structure for the operation of statutory apprenticeships. The specification of apprenticeship standards will set out the standards that all apprenticeships in whatever discipline must satisfy. Apprenticeship frameworks, issued by the sector skills councils, will set out the specific requirements for apprenticeships in different trades or sectors. We are going through consultation at the moment on the specification and standards for apprenticeships in England. Apprenticeship agreements will in effect be the contracts between the employer and the apprentice, setting out their respective responsibilities and what each can expect from the apprenticeship experience. They will be really important. I concur with the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, about the importance of quality. That is what we are looking for. The Bill is about not just creating more apprenticeships but ensuring that they remain a respected brand, with people feeling that they are being given a real career opportunity and delivered a quality experience. Apprenticeship certificates, issued by the National Apprenticeship Service, will carry the appropriate sector skills council logo as an endorsement, and certify that the requirements of an individual apprenticeship framework have been met.

I recognise that the desire of noble Lords opposite to set down in statute a concise definition of an apprenticeship flows from a genuine desire to ensure that the standards of apprenticeship are maintained. I share that ambition; it lies at the heart of why we have decided to legislate again on apprenticeships through this Bill. However, we believe that the quality will flow not from a few rather high-level and unspecific points included in the proposed new clause, but from the robust operation and monitoring of the four core elements of the apprenticeship programme that I have set out.

A key part of the proposed definition in Amendments 1, 6, 57, 61 and 178 seeks a requirement in the Bill that an apprenticeship should include supervised training in the workplace. Of course I concur with that view. It lies at the heart of what an apprenticeship is delivering. It is no good delivering technical qualifications if the individual does not have the core competence and practical skills. A fundamental part of any apprenticeship is supervised training on the job with the support of an experienced work colleague. At the same time we should involve structured learning, away from the immediate work station. It must lead to competence in the relevant trade, profession or occupation. I humbly submit that merely referring to those elements in the way proposed by the noble Lords opposite does not complete the task. If I were an apprentice starting out, I would want to know how much time I could expect to spend away from the workplace and in college. I would expect to know what my employer proposes to do to ensure that I receive the appropriate training and support while in the workplace. I would want to know clearly what knowledge and skills I would need to demonstrate to complete my apprenticeship.

The centre of the noble Lord’s opposition to my noble friend’s request for a definition of apprenticeship seemed to be a list of other provisions that could not be written in the Bill. I do not see that that has anything to do with the matter.

The second leg of his argument was, as I recall, that a great deal of the definition would become clear in regulations and agreements. That would fit inside the definition that my noble friend proposes, which would be a requirement that those standards and specifications should be in the agreements about which he is speaking. He is asking to have robust machinery to deliver what the noble Lord is offering. I hope therefore that he will not be as antagonistic to it as he has been.

I am hurt. I did not believe that I was being antagonistic—I thought that I was being emollient. Rather than trying to write all that information into the Bill, it will be most effective in the specification and standards, and in the apprentice agreement. Those documents will define the quality of the apprenticeship framework. I attach a great deal of importance to that matter, which is about setting the standards and quality.

The next document that addresses a number of concerns that have been raised by noble Lords is the agreement. We must ensure that it is not just dealt with theoretically in a framework but that the agreement between the employer and the apprentice lays down clearly the obligations on the employer in terms of workplace learning and away-from-the-job learning. Those places are the most effective to address the concerns that have been expressed here.

The other thing that puzzled me about the noble Lord’s remarks is that he spent a great deal of time agreeing with my noble friend that an apprenticeship would naturally include a great deal of on-the-job instruction and supervision. His answer to the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, about what happens if the jobs are not available as described seemed to be a case of “it will be all right on the night”. Can he give us any specific assurance as to what will happen if there are more candidates than places?

My answer was a little more explanatory than, “It will be all right on the night”. I pointed out a number of areas where the Government had explicit proposals, whether it was in public sector apprenticeships, where we are investing more money; or public procurement, where that will generate apprenticeships; or the creation of the National Apprenticeship Service, where we believe that it is important to have a body. We do not believe that we can leave the matter to chance. We will have to work hard in the current environment.

I am merely pointing out that in going round and meeting many employers—large, small and medium-sized enterprises—I detected a different mood and much more willingness to understand that if they do not continue training in the current environment, when we inevitably come of out this recession, we will be where we were previously, lacking skills that are desperately needed in UK plc.

I do not want to prolong the discussion, but everything the Minister said is right. What on earth are we talking about here this evening? The Minister has a background of looking after working people, apprentices and so on and so forth. He is trying to do the best for working people in this country. Why do we not accept that?

Before the Minister replies to that statement, may I briefly interject to prevent him having to get to his feet again? He has so much experience in this area that his response was very comforting. He clearly outlined that young people will know that if they are being hard done by, they have someone to turn to in the workplace, and they will have a clear idea of what to expect. That is comforting to me.

I have two specific points, and the Minister may prefer to write to me on them. First, there is the point raised by the young woman. In the apprenticeship agreement, will there be, in most cases, an idea of how much individual supervision the applicant will receive? That may be a detail too far, but it might be helpful for young people. Secondly, speaking with supervisors in the past, they have said to me that bringing on young people is a wonderful job, but it can involve a lot of stress. This may be outwith the Bill, but I would appreciate hearing what sort of support supervisors would be expected to receive when working with young people, sometimes quite troubled young people or perhaps challenging young people. The Minister might prefer to write to me about this rather than reply now.

I think that would probably be best. I accept what my noble friend said but, nevertheless, I am sure that there will, as ever, be a robust exchange of views. Perhaps the Bill will benefit from that.

The Minister said that we need the specification, the standards and the agreement. They are all defined in the Bill. The problem is that the definition of an apprenticeship is spread out in bits and bobs throughout the Bill. I started by saying that we have some sympathy with the notion that we need to start by having a clear definition of what this is about. My noble friend Lady Walmsley has pointed out to me that while I was objecting to some extent to the notion that an apprentice must be employed, the wording of the amendment is that an apprenticeship is,

“an agreement with an employer to train a person”.

The Barnardo's or Rathbone type of scheme frequently involves an agreement with an employer. As far as the Skills Commission was concerned, if we looked to programme-led apprenticeships, they had to involve a great deal of workplace-based learning leading on to an agreement with an employer.

We have all this business about the specifications and so forth, but they mean much more if they start off with a general definition. We may want to add to it, but it does not exclude the rest of the Bill in any sense. The rest of the Bill builds on a definition that could be at the beginning.

The noble Baroness talked about the nature of the employment relationship. There is a balance to be struck on two fronts. One was addressed by the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, when he talked about sustaining the quality of apprenticeships. That is very important. Whatever we do, we must ensure that we do not dilute the brand. We are going to deal separately with ensuring that people with learning difficulties and disabilities have access to apprenticeships.

Another problem was defining an apprenticeship. When we counted them, the Government took a view that the best way of ensuring that we had a clear and acceptable definition was by stating that there had to be workplace employment. An apprenticeship could not be completed without that connection. We can address the Rathbone and Barnardo's thing in the right place as I do not want to confuse this debate. There are other flexible approaches, but we are trying not to have the arguments and debates about how many apprentices we have that we had with programme-led apprenticeships. People argued that they were not proper apprenticeships but simply college-based work with insufficient on-the-job training. We have taken a fairly hard line on this, but there is some ability to be flexible to address specific situations. For example, the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, pointed out that young apprentices, especially in the construction industry, were being made redundant. We wanted to ensure that if we could not find alternative employment, which we did for hundreds of them by having a construction industry vacancy-matching service, if they were six months away from completing a two or three-year apprenticeship, we enabled them to complete it in a college, provided they had had sufficient on-the-job workplace experience. That is an example of flexibility.

I have been listening to all of this because I have considerable sympathy with all the points that have been made. However, the longer I have listened, the more I have sympathy with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, that it might be possible to construct a general definition out of the definitions that are scattered around the Bill, which would help us start off on the right foot.

I hear what the noble Baronesses, Lady Howe and Lady Sharp, said. We think we have got the specific definitions in the right place in the apprenticeship standards specification and the apprenticeship agreement. We will look at the points that have been made, but we believe that that is where we should refer to the detailed requirements. We believe that that will have the most effect in relation to apprentices. They will not be looking at the legislation to find a definition of their apprenticeship, but at the agreement between them and their employer. If we want to look at what an apprenticeship framework represents, we will look at the standards. That is why we believe that is the appropriate way. However, we will look at the scattering to see whether there can be any improvement, but we believe we have it about right.

What an interesting debate this has been. First, I welcome the noble Lord to his new position as Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. I am delighted with his appointment as he knows a great deal and, as his noble friend Lord Brookman said, he was an apprentice. But I would differ with the noble Lord, Lord Brookman, in that we have moved on from the sort of apprenticeship that the noble Lord undertook. I pay tribute to the TUC and the CBI and to the work of the noble Lord, Lord Lea. I see the noble Lord, Lord Morris, in his place. A number of noble Lords helped us all to try to move forward with the whole notion of apprenticeship.

The noble Lord has sought to clarify for everyone that the Government have given a great deal of thought to the question of whether there should be a definition of apprenticeship. They have concluded right at the outset that there should not be such a definition. As the noble Baroness said, it is contained all over the place. The noble Lord tried to explain by saying that it could all be in the agreement—part of what the employer agrees to. But that is a sort of bureaucratic answer. I want someone to know what an apprenticeship is. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Perry of Southwark and a number of other noble Lords, including my noble friends Lord Sheikh and Lord Eccles.

The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, made a very important contribution, which was absolutely on all fours with what my noble friend Lady Perry said. My noble friend Lord Elton pinpointed this area by giving the Minister a chance to say, “All right, we will go away, have a look and try to reach a decision about what the definition should be”. The noble Lord had that opportunity, but he sought to avoid it by resorting to something that I used to have to do—defend the indefensible. I readily admit that there were those times, and I sense that deep down he would like a definition.

I pay tribute to the noble Baroness for all her experience. She served with Tim Boswell, my honourable friend in the other place on the Skills Commission, and has done valuable work at Guildford College of Further and Higher Education. We will come to many of her points in other debates. There must be no barriers; no bar. Some of us have been discussing how we recognise pre-apprenticeship and how apprenticeship becomes part of an ongoing process, which is extremely important. This is the new way in which real apprenticeships can be fashioned.

As always, I found myself in total agreement with the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote. We have a sense that we want a general definition. What on earth should I do? My noble friends Lady Verma and Lord De Mauley have given me the answer. I am moving Amendment 1. Let me make it clear that I am doing it because I wish to have a definition, but not one that excludes. I cite the three proposed new subsections referring to,

“an agreement with an employer to train a person, using the practices, equipment and personnel of his or her enterprise in doing so … a mixture of on and off-the job learning”—

the balanced point—

“and … training designed to lead to a generally recognised level of proficiency in a trade, profession or occupation”.

That is the limit on which I wish to test the opinion of the Committee.

I believe that there should be a definition. Whether this is just a step—the noble Lord said that perhaps this is the start of the process and believes that it can be achieved in other ways—I think we ought to pause for moment to ask whether this is the path we want to follow. Let us have a definition. This is a good start at a definition. There is more to be done and more amendments to come. In the mean time, I beg leave to test the opinion of the Committee on Amendment 1.

In speaking to this amendment, I shall speak to all the other amendments in this grouping in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Walmsley.

As presently set up, the National Apprenticeship Service is an agency working under the Skills Funding Agency, which, as established in this Bill, is not a non-departmental public body with its own board and its own chair but a next-steps agency and part of the new Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Liberal Democrats have considerable reservations about replacing the Learning and Skills Council, which is a non-departmental public body, with the YPLA, which again is a non-departmental public body, and the SFA, when the SFA is not set up as a non-departmental public body but is under the thumb of the department and is set to administer so many different sub-agencies.

The SFA has four distinct sub-agencies working under it: it will administer the Adult Advancement and Careers Service, the Train to Gain service, the National Employer Service and the National Apprenticeship Service. This is all part of the complex changes to the machinery of government that have been introduced as the successors to the LSC. Now we have yet more such changes. Initially we had the separation of the under-19s into the Department for Children, Families and Schools and the over-19s into DIUS. Now DIUS has disappeared and further and higher education and skills have all moved into the mammoth new Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. The danger is, of course, that they will get lost and that a next-steps agency within that department, amid masses of agencies that that department runs, will also get lost.

We believe that the National Apprenticeship Service is thoroughly important. We were delighted when the Government proposed to set it up and we certainly endorse its broad aims. We believe that it should be a non-departmental public body in its own right, with its own chair. Its aims should be, first, to champion apprenticeships among employers; secondly, to liaise with the sector skills councils; thirdly, to award certificates; fourthly, to operate the Apprenticeship Vacancy Matching Service, which is now beginning to emerge and which was one of the main recommendations in the Select Committee report on apprenticeships from your Lordships’ House; fifthly, to liaise with the DCSF and local authorities to increase demand for employer-based 14 to 19 apprenticeships, including public sector apprenticeships; sixthly, to ensure that proper careers guidance in schools and colleges about apprenticeships is delivered; seventhly, to promote 14 to 15 pre-apprenticeship training, with schools and colleges collaborating with each other; and, lastly, to liaise with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Department for Children, Families and Schools, the SFA and HEFCE to promote levels 1, 2, 3 and 4 apprenticeships and progression within those apprenticeships.

All these are worthwhile objectives for the National Apprenticeship Service. We feel strongly that the service should be able to stand on its own and promote those objectives. We worry that, as set up as a next-steps agency under the wing of the Secretary of State, it will not have the degree of independence or business leadership that it needs. For example, in Clause 11, it is the Secretary of State who runs the show and chooses who shall be designated to issue the frameworks; in Clause 21, the Secretary of State tells the chief executive of skills funding to prepare the specification; in Clause 80, the Secretary of State tells the chief executive again what he should be doing. Much too much micromanagement is written into the Bill.

Our vision is that the Bill should set up the National Apprenticeship Service with its main functions. Clauses 81, 82, and 83 set out the sort of functions that we think should be included. We would hope also to look at apprenticeships for the post-19 group. In this Bill, that is a big black hole at the moment, yet, if you talk to employers, they will tell you that they have more people aged over 19 wanting to take up apprenticeships than they have people under 19. This is the area of big expansion in apprenticeships at the moment, yet this Bill hardly deals with apprenticeships for those post-19.

As I say, we would like the National Apprenticeship Service to be set up as what is known as a non-departmental public body, with its own chair, with its own board and with a secure set of objectives. There should have been a fourth subsection to Amendment 2, which has three subsections. We had added a fourth subsection that there should be a schedule that makes further provision for the National Apprenticeship Service and we would have modelled that schedule on Schedule 3, which sets up the YPLA as an NDPB. We could quite easily have gone through it all and changed “YPLA” to “NAS”, but we talked to the clerks and they suggested that perhaps it was not sensible to waste all those trees in printing; we, too, felt that it was not sensible to waste the trees on this occasion. Therefore, the Committee has not been presented with a Marshalled List of an extra eight or so pages; I think that noble Lords are probably quite glad of that. However, that is how we would like to set up the service.

The substantive amendments are Amendment 2, which would set out the National Apprenticeship Service as a body corporate; the question whether Clause 4 should stand part, as the English certifying body, as far as we are concerned, should be the National Apprenticeship Service and not the chief executive of skills funding; and Amendment 16 to Clause 11, which would designate the National Apprenticeship Service as the body responsible for issuing general guidelines and the general specification in relation to apprenticeship frameworks and for designating other persons. We shall talk about that later, because, as we all know, “person” in parliamentary draftsmanship can mean a body as much as a person—in this case, the sector skills councils. Our vision is that the National Apprenticeship Service should be responsible for the general specifications in relation to apprenticeships, with the sector skills councils responsible in relation to specific sectors. Finally, we question whether Clause 80 should stand part, to prevent the Secretary of State from constantly interfering. This is our vision. This is what we would like to see.

There is one question that I should like to put to the Minister. What is the strategic role of the Secretary of State in relation to skills? Section 10 of the Education Act 1996 has a general duty for the Secretary of State:

“The Secretary of State shall promote the education of the people of England and Wales”.

Section 11 states, under the heading “Duty in the case of primary, secondary and further education”:

“The Secretary of State shall exercise his powers in respect of those bodies in receipt of public funds which—

(a) carry responsibility for securing that the required provision for primary, secondary or further education is made—

(i) in schools, or

(ii) in institutions within the further education sector, in or in any area of England or Wales, or

(b) conduct schools or institutions within the further education sector in England and Wales,

for the purpose of promoting primary, secondary and further education in England and Wales.

(2) The Secretary of State shall, in the case of his powers to regulate the provision made in schools and institutions within the further education sector in England and Wales, exercise his powers with a view to (among other things) improving standards, encouraging diversity and increasing opportunities for choice”.

The general duty of the Secretary of State to promote the education of people in England and Wales was written into the Education Act, but what is the general duty of the Secretary of State—we have now two Secretaries of State—in relation to skills? Do we not need a similar commitment from the Secretary of State in relation to skills? Do we not want the Secretary of State to work with local authorities, industry and other bodies to ensure that there is necessary provision to deliver the Government’s commitment? An important part of that commitment is the entitlement given to young people by this Bill: if they wish to be trained through an apprenticeship and have the necessary capabilities to cope with that training, they should be able to do so. We think that it is important that the body charged with delivering that commitment should be given the status and independence that it deserves. We are proposing this series of amendments to set up the National Apprenticeship Service as a service in its own right, with its own board and its own chair. I beg to move.

I have some sympathy with the amendments that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guilford, has just proposed. As it stands, the Bill introduces a statutory right to an apprenticeship. We very much share the desire to increase the number of apprentices. Nevertheless, as my noble friend Lord De Mauley said at Second Reading, one cannot simply legislate for improvements; one has to make them happen. Once we get into the nitty-gritty of attempting to provide the mechanics, we see, as the noble Baroness has just pointed out, the complex intricacies of the relationships between the Government’s many institutions. My fear is that this can only have a damaging impact on the growth of an apprenticeship system, which I hope and expect all noble Lords right across the Chamber are keen to see develop.

As the Bill stands, it is clear that the English certifying authority will be the chief executive of skills funding. Nevertheless, the Explanatory Notes state that it is expected that the chief executive will delegate the responsibility to the chief executive of the National Apprenticeship Service. I am not sure that the NAS needs a separate status, but given that the NAS will be responsible for the day-to-day running of the apprenticeship scheme, could the Minister please explain to us why it has been decided that the English certifying authority will be the chief executive of the SFA? This may be a sensible position for the NAS, but I should be grateful if the Minister could expand on the theory behind it for the benefit of us all.

In discussions in another place, my colleague Mr John Hayes talked about the sector skills councils as the issuing authority at the moment and as the bodies that, according to the Explanatory Notes to this Bill, are expected to help to develop frameworks for apprenticeships in conjunction with the standard-setting bodies. The argument is that it would not make sense for the sector skills councils to translate into the certifying authority, because then there would be too many different certificates, rather than just one produced by the NAS. Nevertheless, this need not prevent the NAS from being held accountable to the chief executive of skills funding. At the moment, the issuing authorities are the sector skills councils. After the Bill becomes an Act, the chief executive of the SFA will be the certifying authority who will then delegate the function to the NAS, which will sit inside the body of the SFA.

I understand from the Minister in another place that none of this will mean any “diminution” of the role of sector skills councils. I reflect for a moment that the Government are creating a complex web. I am not averse to the NAS remaining under the aegis of the chief executive of skills funding, but I very much look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. I hope that he will untangle it all for us with a clear explanation of the accountability and reporting functions of all these bodies. It is in that expectation that I await his reply.

As so often, I greatly sympathise with what the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has argued. I also greatly sympathise with her aversion to the way in which the Bill gives so much more centralised power to the Secretary of State. We see the Secretary of State doing almost everything on every other page, and that is the wrong direction in which education should move or be controlled.

As I listened to the noble Baroness, I also had considerable sympathy with the concept that the NAS should have some kind of senior status within this appalling “network”, as my noble friend Lord Hunt so graphically described it, of quangos that the poor people on the ground who have to deal with all these various bodies have to cope with. The Minister himself said that there have been attempts to improve the status of apprenticeships and to increase the number of young people going into apprenticeships, which the country so badly needs, so would it not be a gesture to say that the NAS should be separate from a funding individual or agency that regulates the money? The NAS should be there to ensure that the apprentices have a proper experience of quality, that the numbers of employers who are prepared seriously to take on apprentices improve and that the numbers of apprentices steadily increase over the years.

I remember the early 1990s, or perhaps even the late 1980s—my memory goes back a long time now—when the NVQs were first introduced. I had the great fun of being on the national advisory council and working on the Aspire Training Team targets for NVQs. Separate from funding and regulation, our job was to encourage employers and more young people to take up NVQs. I could envisage something quite positive for the NAS in that sort of field—something that was separate, as I say, from the Skills Funding Agency, which will be very much more a regulatory and finance-based kind of body. Although I am the last person to want yet more quangos in the field, I have a great deal of sympathy with the noble Baroness’s arguments.

I support the amendment because the National Apprenticeship Service needs a separate status. Under the Bill, as we have heard, responsibility for the apprenticeships service is given to the chief executive of skills funding. However, the agency that he heads—the Skills Funding Agency—has no life under the Bill, which does not even mention it. The head of the agency is the chief executive of skills funding, who will simply be a senior civil servant in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.

Three things are wrong with this. First, it means that the SFA is completely unaccountable to Parliament, unlike its predecessors the LSC and the Further Education Funding Council. Given that this agency will have responsibility for more than £5 billion of public expenditure on skills and development, this seems to be quite wrong. Of course, it will be accountable through the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, as that department is accountable for all its activities, but it will have no direct accountability. Its accountability through a great department of state, such as the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, will be much diluted—one might say almost to the point of invisibility.

Secondly, not being established on a statutory basis, the agency will be that much less immune from further ministerial and administrative tinkering. One might say that being established on a statutory basis has not proved to be much of an obstacle to Ministers tinkering in the recent past. Still, it would be preferable if the agency was firmly established on its own statutory basis.

Thirdly and finally, of particular importance is the fact that this also means that, unlike the LSC, the SFA will not be subject to the disability equality duty under the Disability Discrimination Act or to the public sector equality duty when it comes in under the Equality Act later this year or next year. It will fall under these duties only indirectly in so far as it comes within the scope of the department’s duty. As will become clear as we go through the Bill, the activities of this agency will have a considerable impact on disabled people and the ease with which they can access apprenticeships, so its effective exclusion from the requirements of the equality duties is a particularly unwelcome feature of the Bill.

In summary, the amendment would remove the responsibility for apprenticeships from the SFA and create an accountable body, the National Apprenticeship Service, with general and specific duties under the Disability Discrimination Act and other equalities legislation. Given that the body will have an end-to-end responsibility for apprenticeships and government targets, this is not an unimportant matter.

I, too, support this series of amendments, and Amendment 2 in particular. The more I look through the document on the National Apprenticeship Service, the more the service seems to have a great deal of responsibility; it will evaluate what is going on the whole time to see that it really is value for money and so on. However, we suddenly find out that it actually has very little authority of its own. It must work indirectly, really. Perhaps even more important, it does not seem to have quite enough accountability to the rest of us, other than what we are going to be told by the government department, BIS. The more I have listened, the more I think that there is a lot to be said for the amendment, which would set up a body that was rather more independent and responsible to all of us: the National Apprenticeship Service in a rather stronger form.

I endorse what my noble friend Lady Perry has said, particularly about centralisation. If we must go on having centralisation, can it please be on Parliament and not on Ministers?

Amendment 2 would insert a new clause that would place the National Apprenticeship Service on the face of the Bill, changing its status to a non-departmental public body. The NAS would no longer be a discrete service within the Skills Funding Agency, and would have powers and duties in its own right.

I understand that in part the amendments have been inspired by concerns among some bodies, including members of the Special Educational Consortium, that the apprenticeships programme be established under a single entity. I must admit that we were puzzled: given the criticism that we have faced for the number of public bodies that the Bill already creates, I hope noble Lords will forgive me for expressing some mild surprise that we are being encouraged to establish yet another one.

That said, I can assure the House that establishing the NAS as a separate NDPB was certainly one of the options that we considered when framing the legislation. We discounted it because we believe that there are significant benefits from housing the NAS within the Skills Funding Agency. In particular, it will ensure that apprenticeships form a key part of the overarching skills agenda managed by the Skills Funding Agency. That connection may be lost if the NAS has the level of independence and status conferred by being a separate NDPB, and would create the potential for the NAS to separate itself from the overarching aims and objectives of the Skills Funding Agency. It should be a part of that, not something separate. We understand the need to focus on apprenticeships, but apprenticeships must be part of a skills and training programme that is helpful to our policy aim of achieving a more coherent system for learners and employers.

In creating the Skills Funding Agency, a key design principle has been to ensure a much stronger employer and learner focus, and that it why it will house a number of discrete client-facing gateways. As well as the National Apprenticeship Service, these will include Train to Gain, an employer skills service including the National Employer Service and the Adult Advancement and Careers Service, ensuring that all of these gateways offer a coherent package to learners and employers.

Within this structure, the National Apprenticeship Service will have a significant level of operational independence, as its activities will be managed by its own chief executive who will be directly accountable to the Secretaries of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and for Children, Schools and Families, bearing in mind that we have a range of apprenticeships from those age ranges covered by the DCSF and post-19. This structure will also enable more streamlined funding arrangements for colleges and other providers, as contracting for apprenticeships will be managed through an account management system which will sit within the Skills Funding Agency.

I understand that there are concerns about whether the Skills Funding Agency, and by extension the NAS, will be covered by discrimination legislation—a concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Low—such as the Disability Discrimination Act and the new Equality Bill. I can reassure the Committee that, as a government agency, the Skills Funding Agency will be covered by a single equality duty which will be placed on the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills by the Equality Bill when it comes into force. However, we also want to follow the spirit of this legislation, and following the practice of other agencies such as Jobcentre Plus, we will expect the Skills Funding Agency to have its own Single Equality Scheme. That requirement will be set out in the framework document that will underpin the relationship between the department and the Skills Funding Agency.

We will discuss the reasons for establishing the Skills Funding Agency as an agency rather than an NDPB at a later point in our consideration of the Bill, so I will not go into detail here. Suffice to say that it strikes an important balance between making the Skills Funding Agency, including the apprenticeships programme, responsive to evolving policy and giving it the legal accountability we would expect would accompany a budget of this scale.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, said that we were micromanaging. I find that strange because many of these powers existed and needed to exist with the LSC as well. We had to have the ability for the Secretary of State to direct where necessary. For example, we do not regard as micromanagement the Secretary of State's powers to direct that certain key documents be produced, such as the specification of apprenticeship standards in England. This is all about delegating powers away from the Secretary of State. There is absolutely no chance of the Secretary of State wanting to intervene and micromanage as has been suggested. I would be interested to know a Secretary of State who had the time to do that, let alone the inclination.

We have already established the National Apprenticeship Service with its own chief executive already doing a good job in focusing on the important need for more apprenticeships and ensuring that we set the right standards. It is already functioning. There is no question of micromanagement in those circumstances. Will it be accountable to Parliament? Yes, it will be through its chief executive, who will be named in legislation and will be an accounting officer in their own right. If Parliament wants to hold the CEO of the Skills Funding Agency to account, it can do so.

We believe that we have got it right. We would not say that the structure is simple, but we have tried to ensure in the new arrangements that we are devolving, which is the opposite of centralising. Part of the criticism of the current arrangements of the Learning and Skills Council is that it is a large, central body. We have been trying with this policy to push that power down towards local authorities and make the agency more responsive to employer demands, which is something that those on the Opposition Benches normally applaud. We do not believe that creating yet another NDPB is the right solution in the circumstances. I hope that I have addressed the points of concern raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. I have dealt with the question of the chief executive of the NAS.

On the role of the sector skills councils, the nature of that relationship is fundamentally important. The most important part of the sector skills councils’ job will be to work in conjunction with the employers—who, after all, make up the sector skills councils—on the design of the apprenticeship framework and to ensure that we sustain the largest number of apprenticeships possible. The role of the SSC will continue. The only thing that we have done is to enable the National Apprenticeship Service to be the body that issues the certificates and we believe that that is right. Again, we are ensuring that there is one standard apprenticeship certificate to ensure that there is a quality brand. As I acknowledged in the previous debate, the particular sector skills council logo will form part of that certificate.

I cannot accept that we have created a scenario where there is constant micromanagement by the Secretary of State. There are occasions where, I suggest to the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, we would want the Secretary of State to have some power to direct if the circumstances changed—as they did on the question of apprentices being made redundant, for example. Powers would be exercised as they currently are only in urgent or necessary circumstances. There is no question of micromanagement. Again, I hope that that reassures the noble Baroness and that she will consider withdrawing her amendment.

I am grateful to the Minister for his response and to other noble Lords for their substantive contributions.

The Minister has made three points in response. The most important is that, in answer to the question of why the SFA and why this complicated system under it, it gives greater system coherence to the skills agenda. He talked about a more coherent system of learning and employment. I am not sure that it does; it is split between the YPLA and the SFA, so there is already a split between under-19s and over-19s, which actually complicates the whole apprenticeship area. A great advantage of bringing the National Apprenticeship Service into one body is that there is then a single body to champion apprenticeships and run the clearing house service that is so necessary.

The notion of having a single body gives it greater coherence rather than less, particularly because apprenticeship is such a satisfactory way for young people to learn by doing. That was another point that came up in your Lordships’ report on apprenticeships: it is the most satisfactory form of work-based learning. We want to see an expansion of apprenticeships and we want a champion; we want something that pulls together all the different bits so that it is not split between pre-19 and post-19 in the way that it is. There is coherence there.

Secondly, the Minister said, “Why on earth do you want to make another quango when we already have so many?”. If he looks carefully at the Bill he will find that we, alongside the Opposition, do not want to see quite so many of them. Part of what we are about in the Bill is to try to ensure that there are not so many quangos in the offing. There is coherence in what we are proposing because it puts the National Apprenticeship Service under a single body.

He says that the SFA is about devolving responsibilities, not micromanagement. He says that all the instances where I accuse him of micromanagement were already written into the Learning and Skills Act. One reason why the Learning and Skills Council failed so badly was that the Government kept putting their nitpicking fingers into the council and telling it what to do. It might have done somewhat better if it had been left alone to get on with the job. I am not sure about that—it really did make a mess of its capital programme, didn’t it?—but I do not think that it is a good example of how this should be done.

Thirdly, there is the whole question of accountability. The Minister says that of course it is going to be accountable: its chief executive officer will be its accounting officer, and he will be accountable to Parliament. That is true, but only through the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills or his Permanent Secretary. As we know perfectly well, the chief executive officer for skills funding is going to be a civil servant sitting within the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, not a Minister. We are asking for a degree of accountability directly to Parliament. The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Elton, is a telling one: we want to see if we can get centralisation. “Let’s have centralisation around Parliament”; this is what people are asking for now. We do not want more centralisation around the government Benches; we want to see Parliament being able to scrutinise to a greater degree what is going on.

This has been an interesting debate. We have opened up a number of fascinating areas here, and we will have to ponder this issue further. I put it to the Minister that there is coherence in what we are proposing. As he says, the National Apprenticeship Service is already set up, like so much that is in the Bill; it is already there in shadow form. We are being asked ex post to pass the legislation for what is already happening, and this occurs too frequently.

Having said that, I am pleased at what the National Apprenticeship Service, which has been going for six or nine months, has been doing. It is doing the right things, but I would like it to have greater autonomy. We will think more on these things, but for now I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

The amendment seeks to probe the Government on the purpose of the inclusion of the words “otherwise than for reward” in Clause 1(6). We want some clarity regarding the validity of apprenticeships for those who are working otherwise than for reward and the Government’s intention in that regard. We cannot yet see why it is necessary, for example, to highlight unpaid apprenticeships in the way that this subsection does. Does it mean that those in work-based programme-led apprenticeships will be able to complete an apprenticeship but not to work under an apprenticeship agreement? I beg to move.

We understand the intention behind the amendment, which is to ensure that the quality of apprenticeships and the apprenticeship brand is maintained, something that I have already committed the Government to, and which I think is demonstrated by our actions. We share that commitment, and it goes to the heart of why we are legislating on apprenticeships now.

An apprenticeship is a job. We see employment, particularly the apprenticeship agreement between the employer and the apprentice, as a central and fundamental part of the system of apprenticeships that we are establishing through the Bill. However, we think it is important, without in any way lowering the bar, to allow a degree of flexibility for apprentices who are working under alternative working arrangements in certain exceptional circumstances.

Clause 1(6) provides some examples of the kinds of working where regulations may provide for alternative completion conditions. It is intended to provide examples and a guide to where such flexibility may be needed. For example, we recently had some problems with redundancies in retail apprenticeships. One of the ways in which those apprenticeships could have been completed might have been by working in a voluntary capacity in a retail shop.

I reassure the noble Lord that in no way do we want to use this as a back door for programme-led apprenticeships, but there are circumstances where we believe that a degree of flexibility is both necessary and desirable. They will be exceptional and we will ensure that they are specifically described. We are not granting this as a general opportunity, and certainly not one that would allow the widespread creation of programme-led apprenticeships where there was not a clear employment connection.

I thank the Minister for his explanation. I said that this was a probing amendment, and I can certainly see attractions in flexibility. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

I shall speak also to Amendments 62 and 207. Before I get into the substance of the amendment, I should point out that our support for Amendment 1 did not preclude this group of amendments, simply because that amendment was so broadly drawn. Had the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said in his proposed subsection (a) that the person had to be employed and paid by an employer, we may not have been able to support it, but since it said,

“an agreement with an employer to train a person”,

we found ourselves able to support it.

The purpose of these amendments is to take account of the needs of those young people who have been out of education or employment for a while but who nevertheless are capable of benefiting from work-based training. They may not have the expected qualifications because they dropped out of education some time ago, nor a conventional background because they may be somewhat older than the average apprentice, but these are some of the young people whom we know the Government want to help and we must make sure that the Bill that leaves this House does not exclude them.

A number of organisations, training providers and charities, such as Barnardo’s and Rathbone, provide such work-based courses and pay employers to take on the young people for the work-based part. They often run events in your Lordships' House and many of us have had the pleasure of meeting many impressive young people who have succeeded for the first time in their lives on these programmes and as a result have gained in confidence. These amendments seek to include those young people. The problem with the Bill is that it does not make adequate allowance for them.

Rathbone has given us the case history of a young lady, Amina Begum, who is 19 years old and lives in Denton. Amina left secondary school with no qualifications and felt that she had nothing and could achieve nothing. Connexions advised her to go to a training provider. She went to Rathbone where she successfully retook her GCSEs and began an apprenticeship in childcare. Amina also suffered from crippling shyness, which she overcame with the help of an inspirational teacher at Rathbone. She now works full-time in Alphabet nursery in Denton, which is where she did her training, after which she was taken on. In the future, she hopes to own her own nursery. She said:

“I never really spoke to my family about doing an apprenticeship. As soon as I saw the opportunity I just went for it. I just thought, ‘yes, I’m getting somewhere, just go for it’. When they found out, they were really happy about it”.

We have a second problem in that there are, as my noble friend Lady Sharp said earlier, not enough employers offering apprenticeships. We agree that apprenticeships would normally be where a young person works normally in the workplace while receiving on- and off-the-job training. However, if we find a way to accommodate the young people I have just mentioned, many of whom are the most disadvantaged, we can kill two birds with one stone. We can provide a route to apprenticeships which avoids cutting out a whole raft of people, while ensuring that those who can fulfil the usual conditions do so.

The third sector is willing and able to continue doing its good work and take part in this important programme for young people. These amendments ensure that it can do so. Subsections (5) and (6) of Clause 1 offer an opportunity to start to put things right. The first of these probing amendments asks how far regulations may be extended to cover programmes of the sort offered by Rathbone and other learning providers, which offer the concept of an apprenticeship as a work-based programme by a recognised provider meeting recognised standards. That is very important. Is this covered by Clause 1(6)(b), which refers to,

“otherwise than for reward”?

Or do we need to be very clear, as suggested in our amendment, and add the words,

“as part of a recognised programme of training for an apprenticeship framework”?

Amendment 62, to Clause 30, pushes this a little further. Clause 30(2) states that an apprentice must undertake “work for another”, who is called “the employer”. Can that person be de facto a registered charity or a learning provider when it is offering the majority of the training in a workplace or do we need to specify clearly by putting in our new definition, which includes registered charities? Amendment 207, to Clause 91, goes one step further. It suggests that an apprenticeship place may be obtained either by employment or by,

“arrangements with a recognised charity or training provider which involve preparation for employment under such a framework”;

that is, an apprenticeship framework.

Noble Lords may have a few questions about the apprenticeships I am talking about. For example, are these apprenticeships real? Yes, they are. Young people on these work-based programmes do everything that a paid apprentice does. They obtain the same qualifications at the same levels. They get the same learning on the job and they acquire key skills et cetera. They get experience of doing a real job under full working conditions. The only difference is that they are not paid.

That brings me to the second question, which is why do not employers pay them if they are so good? These young people have chaotic backgrounds. When an employer takes on a young person, they always take a risk of some sort. These young people represent an increased risk for employers. Therefore, employers are reluctant to recruit and pay them as employees. Earlier today in the Bishops’ Bar, I heard someone say, “Well, should they not be on pre-apprenticeship programmes”? No, they should not. They have already done programmes designed to overcome their disadvantage, whether it is an academic or a social disadvantage. They have overcome those difficulties and are now ready to start a real apprenticeship. However, finding an employer prepared to take them on with their chaotic backgrounds is very difficult. But these programmes allow the employer the opportunity to see the young person in the job without a financial risk. Once the employer sees a young person like Amina in action, they take them on.

We have talked about the definition of apprenticeships. I do not believe that the core of an apprenticeship has anything to do with being paid. It is about whether the apprentice is learning from and working alongside a skilled man or woman in a real work setting and doing a real job. For many years, apprentices were very much accepted by society, but they were not paid. I am very glad to say that that has changed and that we now have paid apprentices, which is a good thing. However, employers might be happier to have apprentices undertaking a Rathbone or Barnardo’s training programme who they do not have to pay, rather than take on ordinary apprentices who they do have to pay. That situation would not occur if measures are taken to restrict either the organisations which can offer this type of apprenticeship or the types of individual who would qualify. That situation would be very easily dealt with.

We are sure that the Government do not want to exclude the disadvantaged from apprenticeship opportunities. I hope that the Minister will either accept these amendments or let the House know how the Government will include these groups of young people. They deserve the same opportunity to have apprenticeships as all young people, but the Bill does not make that clear. I beg to move.

I support my noble friend in these amendments and I welcome the comment made by the Minister in response to the previous group as regards being keen to ensure flexibility and finding alternative methods of work. These amendments would apply particularly to people who need additional resources to help them have access to work opportunities if they are disabled or disadvantaged in some way and to prevent them from getting caught in the benefit trap. That perhaps is an aspect of these amendments which could be addressed. People with little experience of learning or success, either at work or in education, would be helped to gain confidence and self-respect if these amendments were added to the Bill.

I strongly support the amendment. Clearly, there is a lot of concern about this, from Rathbone in particular. I hope the Minister can offer a clear assurance that these important work-based programme-led apprenticeships are valid. It is estimated that in excess of 12,000 young people could be affected. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

I support the amendments because the issues raised are important. I feel sure that the Government will be able to reassure us on these points because a lot of what was said earlier indicated that these are some of the routes down which the Bill is pointing. I hope that I shall be satisfied along with many other Members of the Committee.

I support in particular the widening of access and the emphasis on a majority element of training in the workplace.

I add my voice to the many who have praised the excellent work of Rathbone and Barnardo’s in helping young people who have sometimes chaotic backgrounds, as eloquently described by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and who might otherwise have trouble persuading employers to give them a chance into work. The benefits that many young people have derived from these schemes are beyond doubt.

Our aim in legislating on apprenticeships has been to ensure a high-quality experience for apprentices and employers alike. We have rightly been scrutinised closely in this House and in another place so that we do nothing to dilute the apprenticeship brand, which is critical for maintaining the credibility of apprenticeships in the eyes of young people and business. At the heart of the statutory framework that we are proposing is a requirement for an apprenticeship agreement between the employer and apprentice which will set out the responsibilities and expectations on both sides. Paid employment is a fundamental part of this agreement. If I had to part company with the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, it was perhaps when she said it did not matter about paid employment—I might be paraphrasing slightly. We would say that it does, but I shall return to why I understand her reasons for saying that. We see paid employment as a fundamental part of an apprenticeship agreement. If we depart from that principle, we should be clear about the circumstances and why we are doing it.

Any derogation from this central requirement risks undermining the strong employment relationship between apprentice and employer which we see as being key to providing a high-quality, transferable, on-the-job experience. Indeed, the previous group of amendments focused on concerns about the sections of the Bill which provide for regulations to be made so that an apprenticeship can be recognised for those working otherwise than for reward.

However, we have listened to the debate. I am sympathetic to the intention behind the amendments. I recognise that many young people engaged in the programmes offered by Rathbone, Barnardo’s and others progress to an employed apprenticeship part way through their training. I understand the intention behind the amendments to ensure that young people in this position are issued with an apprenticeship certificate under Clause 2. We would not wish further to disadvantage those young people or to discourage them from aspiring to take up an apprenticeship place. The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, said that the last thing that we would want is for people to be left in a benefit trap, which does not benefit the individual or society. We are motivated strongly to do something to help those young people, especially when, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, described to us, apprenticeships prove to be such a life-changing opportunity for so many disadvantaged young people already. Like her, I have encountered numerous cases that demonstrate that.

I want to ensure that we strike an appropriate balance. My officials are already in discussion with representatives from Rathbone and Barnardo’s. With noble Lords’ agreement, I should like to give this issue more detailed consideration and to come back to it on Report. That is a genuine commitment. We share the concerns expressed on all sides of the Committee that we have to do something about this situation. With that assurance, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.

I am grateful to the Minister, particularly as he said that he would give the matter consideration and come back on Report. I am grateful also to other Members of the Committee for their support.

I was a little concerned by the Minister’s opening remarks, because he seemed to suggest that these programmes are not high quality. I can assure him that they are of high quality and that the various measures elsewhere in the Bill to ensure that all apprenticeship schemes—

It was not my intention to suggest that they are not high-quality programmes. I am saying that we have to be careful in whatever we do not to undermine the quality of the apprenticeship brand. I have no doubts about the quality of the programmes; I know that they are effective and of high quality.

I agree with the Minister that it is important that the quality is maintained, but perhaps he will bear in mind that elsewhere in the Bill is a whole raft of arrangements to ensure that standards are maintained in whatever apprenticeships are finally included in the framework. If such arrangements as I have described did not come up to those standards, they would simply not be allowed to be called apprenticeships.

I do not believe that there is any reason why there should not be an agreement with the employer such as makes clear the responsibilities of the employer and of the young person in the arrangements that I have described—that could easily be done. Nor do I believe that it would dilute the brand. Does it dilute the brand of a university degree to have the various financial and other support mechanisms for university undergraduates which the Government have in place? I do not believe that it does. Therefore, I do not think that the kind of support that we are talking about would dilute the brand of apprenticeships.

However, as I have said, I am grateful to the Minister for having said that he will consider before Report how we can reassure those organisations which provide such a valuable service that their programmes can continue and can somehow be included in the framework. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.