To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they plan to increase the income that junior counsel at the criminal Bar receive from legal aid.

My Lords, the Government have no plans to increase the legal aid rates payable to junior counsel at the criminal Bar.

My Lords, that was a rather disappointing but not unexpected Answer. Is the noble Lord aware that after four or five years’ intensive training, aspiring criminal law barristers earn about the same as unskilled workers until they get a tenancy, which may take several more years?

My Lords, I am not aware of what the noble Viscount says and, if he will forgive me, I do not really accept it. The Bar got a very good deal from the 2006 review of legal aid procurement conducted by my noble friend Lord Carter. He increased the amount in the graduated fee scheme, particularly in the shorter cases, to benefit exactly the people about whom the noble Viscount is asking—the junior Bar. The Bar itself supported the aim of taking money out of the highest-paying cases and putting it into the lowest-paying cases. We put an additional £29 million into graduated fees in 2007, which the then chairman of the Bar said amounted to an increase of approximately 16 per cent over graduated fees across the board.

My Lords, does my noble friend agree—I suppose that he does not—that criminal legal aid is very deficient, despite what he has said? Many junior counsel and solicitors specialising in this field are finding it very difficult to make a living. Accordingly, the public are suffering as well. What are the Government prepared to do about that, if anything?

My Lords, I do not think that that public are suffering. The criminal Bar is still doing well. I give my noble friend and the House a few examples. For a guilty plea—that is, defending someone who has pleaded guilty—to wounding with intent, a class B offence, with 75 pages of prosecution evidence, the total that the barrister would receive is in the area of £872.50. For a four-day trial of a Section 18 wounding, with 75 pages of prosecution evidence and 14 witnesses, the same barrister would get £2,643.89. I submit that those are large amounts, particularly compared with the earnings of unskilled workers.

My Lords, while declaring a possible interest as a member of the Bar, perhaps I may ask about the Legal Services Commission’s proposals on awarding legal defence contracts for police station workers at the bottom end. Is it not misleading to call these proposals “best value tendering”, given that contracts would be awarded on the basis not of sound and objective valuation but of the price of bids alone?

My Lords, the BVT proposals, which spring from those of my noble friend Lord Carter, focus on securing what we want, which is a sustainable, effective and efficient supply base. They will enable the Government and the Legal Services Commission to manage the legal aid budget effectively and plan for the future. I need to tell the noble and learned Lord that we are in consultation on the scheme for solicitors at police stations. This is a real consultation; we want to hear what is said. The department will then consider the proposals and whether this is the best way forward to ensure best value for taxpayers’ money while ensuring the quality of criminal defence services for those that need them, which is crucial.

My Lords, I am interested to hear the noble Lord describe this as “a real consultation”; I imagine that the other consultations that his department has conducted were fakes. Who in the entire profession—whether it is the Bar Council, the Law Society or the Criminal Bar Association—supports the best value tendering scheme?

My Lords, not long ago the Conservative Party supported it; perhaps it will be good enough to tell us if it has changed its mind. As I said, we are consulting on the BVT scheme and we will find out whether it is workable and whether it is what we should be doing. I have to tell the House that the legal aid budget is limited and, at a time of recession, we need to spend more not less on social welfare law—that is, law that looks after those with debt needs, housing needs and employment needs. I hope that the House will accept that, while there is a lot of pressure on the fund, those are the areas in which you should not cut back.

My Lords, I declare an interest as chairman of the Bar Standards Board. Is the Minister aware that best value tendering, which appears to be about the lowest price, and various other undoubted cuts in legal aid have the most impact on women and black and ethnic minorities, both as clients of the Bar and as those who are attempting to earn a living, and that the Government’s programme on social mobility and access to the professions is undermined by pulling the rug from under their feet?

My Lords, I do not accept that the savings that we will make will necessarily be in relation to the class of person to which the noble Baroness refers. However, I have to say that it is not the Government who decide which barrister will do which case. That is a matter for the clerks in chambers and it is sometimes the case that clerks will give the lower-paid work to those from the categories that she mentions.

My Lords, I declare my interest as a barrister. Will the Minister recognise that the Legal Services Commission has paid no attention whatever to those very junior barristers who are required day after day to appear in magistrates’ courts and are often losing money as a result of travelling to them? Will he bear in mind the fact that such barristers are actually dealing with people with social need, housing deprivation and other forms of poverty and disadvantage who find their way, unhappily, into a summary court?

Yes, my Lords, I accept what the noble Lord says. This is not always an easy time for the very junior end of the Bar—not that it ever has been particularly easy for people who have just gone to the Bar. However, I stressed social welfare law because, if you can give some legal help at an early stage, you can perhaps prevent people from ending up in the criminal courts.

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that this is not an easy time for solicitors? Does he know how many criminal legal aid solicitors have had to leave their jobs because of the Government’s policies?

My Lords, a large number of solicitors are still doing legal aid and they do a wonderful job, as do barristers who do legal aid. However, these are professions where people come and go—the numbers will never stay the same. The Government have to concentrate on the fact that they have a fixed budget for legal aid and we need to spend it where it is most needed.