Report (2nd Day)
Relevant documents: 15th and 18th Reports from the Delegated Powers Committee
35: After Clause 13, insert the following new Clause—
“Change of use of drinking establishments
(1) In regulation 3 of the Town and Country Planning (Use Classes) Order 1987, after paragraph (6)(o) insert—“(p) as a drinking establishment”.(2) Before exercising his or her powers under section 41(1) of this Act, the Secretary of State must exercise the powers conferred by sections 59, 60, 61, 74 and 333(7) of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 to remove permitted development rights relating to the change of use or demolition of “drinking establishments”.”
My Lords, as this is the first time that I have spoken today, I refer noble Lords to my entry in the Register of Lords’ Interests. I declare that I am a councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham and a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I should also mention that I am a member of CAMRA and vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Beer Group. I am a supporter of pubs and recognise the important role that they play at the heart of local communities, be they in our cities, towns, villages or rural areas. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for signing up to my amendment today.
The amendment is simple in its effect. It seeks to amend the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 to provide further protection for our pubs. We have to take further action to protect our pubs, and by that I mean protecting thriving businesses, not businesses that have failed. There are a number of problems that need to be addressed. First, I want to pay tribute to CAMRA, which, since its formation in 1971, has stood up for the enjoyment of beer, responsible drinking, the pint, and pubs at the heart of our community. It is without doubt one of the most successful consumer campaign organisations in the UK.
Permitted development rights, as noble Lords will be aware, removed the requirement for a building owner to seek planning permission before making changes to a property. This includes change of use or even demolition. The permitted development rights that we are talking about here allow pubs to be changed to retail or to temporary office use without the need to secure planning permission. The effect is that the people in the local community are prevented from having a say over their local pub. We should be clear: these are small businesses, not failing businesses, but decisions are taken and the community loses its pub, having no say whatever. That cannot be right.
Pubs are a much-loved part of British life. They bring people together to meet, socialise, watch football or other sports, and enjoy live music or conversation with family and friends. I recall going to the event in this House organised by the Royal Voluntary Service some years ago to speak to some of the volunteers there. They were getting people out of their homes to potter down to the local pub to meet their friends and keep up their friendships. That was an important part of keeping them involved in the local community.
Pubs are also much loved by tourists. Both my brothers and my father have been black taxi drivers in London, and they could tell you about the number of tourists who arrive in London, get in the back of a taxi and want to visit a traditional pub, as well as see some of the magnificent sights that we have here. It is not uncommon for a Prime Minister to take a head of state down to the Plough in Cadsden for a pint. But permitted development rights, as they are presently in force, are estimated to contribute to the closure of 21 pubs a week.
We, of course, have the assets of community value scheme, which was introduced by the coalition Government in the last Parliament. It has proved to be a popular initiative and it has led to the removal of the permitted development rights for listed pubs. There are, however, issues and unintended consequences associated with the ACV scheme, which I will spend a little time talking about. There is a burden of time and cost placed on local authorities, community groups and pub landlords and owners. There are also a few instances where local authorities, for whatever reason, are not keen to list pubs under this scheme. All sorts of reasons are given, including that the authority is fearful of costly appeals. There have also been problems where some landlords or owners have struggled to raise funds for works, as the listing has proved a deterrent to some lenders. These are clearly an unintended consequence, but they are a consequence nevertheless.
The amendment before us today will lead to fewer pubs needing to be registered under the scheme. It will put them on a level footing with other businesses so that a developer looking to convert a pub, for whatever reason, would have to go through the normal planning application process. It is quite possible, even likely, that the application will be approved, but my amendment would give the local community a proper say in the sort of development it wants in its area and stop local assets being lost for ever with local people having no say. Surely that is something we should all support. I beg to move.
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 39, to which I added my name. I also support the thrust of what the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has just said. As it is the first time I have spoken today, I will place on record my interests in the register as a member of Sheffield City Council.
In Committee, the Minister generously asked for examples of where the asset of community value scheme was not working well in particular authorities. He will be aware that I contacted CAMRA in Sheffield to ask whether there were any incidents of such difficulties with the scheme in regard to pubs. I was quite surprised at the amount of information CAMRA gave me—which I am sure the Minister has seen. It became quite clear from reading about what was going on that this is not isolated to Sheffield, which merely exemplifies what is happening in many communities across the country. This is a burden on communities. It is a David and Goliath fight where the community must fight sometimes a large local authority to prove that an asset is of community value. We talked many times in Committee about the difference between pubs and other commercial operations. It is about not just the economics but also the community and social value that a pub has in binding communities together.
I have come to the view that the asset of community value is not enough in itself to protect those pubs, particularly given the time needed and the burden put on community organisations to save a pub. It is an unbalanced fight between the giant and the small community organisation. For that reason, pubs should have permitted development rights taken away. As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said, that would give the community an equal voice in the planning process. It does not necessarily mean that a pub will not be converted to a particular use if it goes through the planning process, but it gives a statutory right to every single member of the community, without cost, to have a say within the planning process, and to be able to explain why a particular pub should or should not be changed and the effect that that will have on the community and the setting of that pub. For that reason I have come to the conclusion that we need to take the permitted development rights away from pubs if they are changing specific use or will be demolished and put them properly and correctly within the framework of the planning process.
My Lords, I must declare my various interests in this area: as the founder and chairman of Cobra Beer; as the chairman of the Cobra Beer Partnership Ltd, a joint venture with Molson Coors, one of the largest brewers in the world and the largest brewer in Britain; and as an officer of the most popular and largest all-party parliamentary group—the All-Party Parliamentary Beer Group.
I came to this country as a 19 year-old student from India and remember my first evening here, staying at the Indian YMCA in Fitzroy Square in London. Opposite was the White Horse pub. That was my induction to Britain. Pubs are a way of life in this country. I have been lobbied and lobbied by various organisations, including two of the most prominent associations in our industry. The British Beer and Pub Association, or BBPA, represents companies that between them own 20,000 pubs and brew more than 90% of the beer sold in the UK. The ownership ranges from UK plcs, large companies such as my joint venture partner Molson Coors, privately owned companies, independent family brewers, microbrewers and divisions of international brewers. The association is campaigning to support a thriving brewing and pub industry in the UK. After all, pubs are at the heart of our community.
The amendments in this group are important. When one wishes to recategorise a pub from an A4 outlet, a drinking establishment, planning permission to change it to an A3 outlet—that is, one serving food and drink —is required. Nowadays pubs very much rely on food for their business. In June we are sponsoring London Food Month. Britain was the laughing stock of the world regarding food when I came here in the 1980s; today, London is the food capital of the world and Britain is famous for its range of cuisines. Our pubs are phenomenally good at providing excellent value-for-money food. These amendments are important because pubs are vital to the community, and existing planning rules require flexibility to allow pubs change of use.
Pubs increasingly focus on the sale of food and serve more than 1 billion meals a year. While they are categorised as drinking establishments and food-and-drink premises, there are no fixed definitions. Pubs, wine bars and other drinking establishments are permitted to change from A4 to A3 without a planning application. If that right were removed from pubs, there is a real concern that a pub could be penalised and prevented from increasing its food offering. The local authority could instead insist that the pub needed to apply for a change of use if its food turnover reached a certain threshold. This would lead to disputes, costs and complexity, and increased time taken by the local authority.
Drinking establishments are also not just traditional pubs but sometimes wine bars, microbreweries and other establishments, such as those for casual dining. We need to retain flexibility in the distinction between pubs, bars and restaurants. They must continue to have the right to convert to A3 in appropriate circumstances without planning permission in order to prevent distortion of the market.
The impact of the amendment on property values could be significant. The BBPA suggests that there should be full consultation and an accompanying impact assessment. Does the Minister agree?
Then there is the whole issue of the asset of community value process. ACVs were introduced to add protection to pubs and other buildings. A building that has ACV status is already subject to the same planning protections outlined in the amendment, but the vast majority of existing ACVs have been placed on pubs. While offering protection, they are complex and the amendment provides protection to some pubs that are not necessarily an asset and are, in reality, barely viable. Some pubs are historic, and the BBPA believes that pubs should be designated ACVs only if they have a future and are supported by the local community.
As regards minor planning changes, the amendment relates only to planning permission for change of use and demolition. It is imperative that this remains the case and that planning permission under permitted development rights is not required for minor changes to properties because it would deter investment.
To conclude, this is part of the wider support required for the pub sector. These planning changes are not the complete solution to this situation and pubs are closing down every year. Pubs have the third-highest excise duty rates in the EU for their core product, beer —rates many times higher than in Germany, for example. Pubs are disproportionately penalised by business rates, a topical subject at the moment. Compared to other sectors, pubs overpay by half a billion pounds per year on a turnover basis. The sector has huge regulatory burdens, and a change in the planning system should be considered as part of a broader package of support for the industry.
In 2013, CAMRA, the Campaign for Real Ale, conducted a survey of council planning officers and found significant dissatisfaction with current planning protections for pubs: 65% of respondents were not satisfied that existing planning regulations gave sufficient protection to public houses from change of use or demolition; 65% of respondents supported a change in planning regulations to require planning permission to be in place before a public house could be demolished; and 67% of respondents supported a change in planning regulations to ensure that the conversion of a public house to any other use would require planning permission.
In 2015, CAMRA did a consumer poll that showed strong public support for better planning protection for pubs: 68% of respondents supported planning permission being required to demolish a pub and 69% of respondents supported planning permission being required to change the use from a pub to a shop. If we had had a supermajority clause in the European Union referendum, those figures would have passed all the thresholds. CAMRA urges that local people be empowered to keep valued community pubs open. As a result of these amendments, councils would be able to deliver planning policies designed to support the retention of valued pubs and reduce the burden of assets of community value on communities, councils and businesses. I wholeheartedly support these amendments. They protect British pubs, which are a valued part of our wonderful country.
My Lords, Amendments 35 and 39 were debated extensively in the other place. They relate to planning protection for pubs. At the moment, pubs are subject to permitted development rights, meaning that they can be developed for alternative commercial use—for example, they can be turned into offices or shops—without the need for planning permission. The only exception is where a pub has been designated or recommended as an asset of community value—an ACV. More than 1,750 pubs have been given ACV status but, like the noble Lord who moved Amendment 35, I argue that the process is too cumbersome. As Roberta Blackman-Woods put it on Report in the other place:
“Although pubs can be protected if they are designated an asset of community value, the process for that can be very cumbersome. I believe it is much more appropriate to return the decision on whether a pub can be demolished or converted to the local community, where it belongs, rather than dealing with it through permitted development”.—[Official Report, Commons, 13/12/16; cols. 737-8.]
Unless pubs are designated or recommended as an asset of community value, they are at risk of closure in a difficult market for pubs and landlords. Pubs in high-value areas are highly sought after for conversion, even if they are profitable. The amendments would remove pubs from permitted development rights, meaning that planning permission would be needed for conversion, regardless of ACV status. It is argued that this would help local communities protect profitable pubs as the local council will be able to refuse an application for conversion where the pub is profitable and viable. Given that pubs are considered an important aspect of a vibrant community life, and given the Church of England’s concern for that community life being vibrant, these amendments should be supported. I have no investment in any pub.
My Lords, pubs, as we realise, arouse strong emotions. We had a lengthy debate on this topic in Committee in the Moses Room. I do not want to rerun all the remarks that I laid out then. I remind the House that until three years ago I was a non-executive director of a company that operated brewers and about 2,000 pubs. I am outside the quarantine period, so that is no longer in my entry in the Register of Lords’ Interests.
I begin from what I hope is a shared position: we all want to keep pubs open wherever possible. The question posed by this amendment is at root this: will pubs be kept open by this additional legislation? I am afraid that for me the answer is negative. Pubs are closing because people use them less, and people are using them less because of changing leisure habits. Pubs are closing because people can buy the beer far more cheaply in the supermarket and then drink at home. Pubs are closing because of increasing beer duty and council tax and because of the introduction of the minimum wage, the living wage, the smoking ban, the drink-driving ban, new licensing requirements, and new health and safety legislation. Collectively, these have all combined to squeeze the general profitability of pubs to a point where many can no longer provide an adequate return to long-suffering and hard-working landlords.
Legislation cannot make a bad landlord into a good one. Legislation will not enlarge the curtilage, or land area, of a pub to enable new kitchen facilities or new parking areas to be constructed.
Will my noble friend give way? He said that no pubs are closing because of the changes to permitted development rights. I do not think anyone disputes that a number of pubs will close because they are not used by the communities that they are situated in, but can he prove that no viable pubs have been turned into supermarkets?
I certainly cannot. There are 37,000 pubs in the country and I am not able to stand here and say that the 37,000 pubs have been operated completely to the highest standards or that people have not tried to run them down. I shall return to the point about how there is already adequate protection for the community if it chooses to use it. One of the ways to improve a pub is to improve your kitchen facilities or enlarge your car park, but some of these pubs do not have the land area or curtilage to be able to do that.
It is not as though there is not already an opportunity for individual communities, using the asset of community value—the ACV facility—to apply for it to be listed. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, suggested that this was not an adequate remedy and that in some cases local authorities were reluctant to get involved for a series of reasons. I am sure there have seen cases like that, which is why I shall come in a minute to the question of one of the remedies for this. But equally, it is fair to say there are cases where local authorities have blanket-classified a whole series of pubs in their area—the lot—and that is also not what the ACV arrangements were designed to do.
Am I suggesting that every pub is being run scrupulously? Of course not: there are thousands of them and there will be outliers, on both sides of the case, in every community and every part of the country. But to introduce new legislation on the basis of a small number of cases—and it is a small number of cases, some of them anecdotal—is in my view a mistake. What the industry needs above all is more investment, not less, and nothing is more likely to put off potential investors than restrictions on how they can, in the end, realise their investment.
It has somehow gained credence that the groups at which these amendments are aimed are the allegedly rapacious pubcos and integrated brewers. If that is the aim, I have to tell the House that the target is being missed. The losers will be the independent operators, for example the many thousands of mum and dad operators. There are probably 20,000 couples who have worked long and hard, maybe after inheriting the pub from parents, and who now wish to sell up and retire. But because of restrictions like these, they find the sale price of the pub—also their home and their only asset—reduced in price drastically and maybe even unsaleable pending the ACV negotiations. If it is felt that the ACV process is not working well, I agree that it should be reviewed—but reviewed in the round so that the cases that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, refers to and the other cases where there have been block listings can be looked at and we can see how the balance of the ACV operation has been proved to work.
I urge those who support the amendment to be careful what they wish for. Legislation about the pub industry in the past has all too frequently led to some very unhappy unintended consequences. It is worth remembering that the emergence of the pubcos—companies that only own pubs, buy in all their beer and alcoholic drinks and are most disliked by CAMRA—came about only because of legislative action. The beer orders had the intent of opening up the market by reducing the power of the large brewers to dictate which beers were produced, and which owned and controlled the vast majority of the pubs.
Forced divestment of pubs did not lead to the anticipated happy outcome. It led instead to the emergence of what were essentially specialist property companies, all too often highly geared, with all that that implied for reinvestment in the pub industry. In my view, a similar unintended consequence may result if my noble friend were minded to accept this amendment, or the noble Lord was minded to put it to the vote and won the subsequent Division. My reason is this: because of the highly competitive nature of the market for the sale of alcoholic drinks and other changes in our socioeconomic life, pubs have increasingly turned to food, as a means of improving their profitability. Increasingly, they are becoming, in effect, restaurants. If I were an independent owner of a pub, faced with yet further changes, I would consider what the balance of my business was like; I would boost my food offering and apply for a change of use from my current A4—drinking establishment—to A3—restaurant/café. As a result the loss of pubs would accelerate, not slow down.
There is no evidence of widespread running down of pubs to accelerate closure. Where it happens the ACV procedure is available for the community to use. A handful of cases do not justify the imposition of additional restrictions on the whole industry. Hard cases make bad law—
I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I made the point about pubs increasingly offering food. That is happening—it is part of their offering, along with the drink. But the noble Lord’s argument seems to imply that he is not for the British pub industry and British pubs. The BBPA, which represents 20,000 pubs in this country—the majority—and CAMRA, which represents a huge part of our beer industry, feel that these amendments are good. The noble Lord has not convinced me, for a start.
I hear what the noble Lord says. Actually, I am not sure that the British Beer and Pub Association does approve of these amendments. It is concerned at further restrictions being placed on the operation of pubs which will deter investment. What the British Beer and Pub Association favours, with which I entirely agree, is a review of the operation of the asset of community value system in the round. We are taking a sledgehammer to crack a very small nut. The danger is that we will miss the nut and damage the industry.
My Lords, I am very interested to hear the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, for once sticking up for the couples who run pubs. We have been listening for the past two or three years to him, virtually single-handed, opposing the ACV system that both the Labour Party and the Government supported. There are still problems with it, as we know; we need not get into it. It was, however, good to hear him stick up for the small pub couples. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, that the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, is wrong. Pubs are closing. They are closing and having change of use when the community does not want them. It is very easy to stereotype. I live in Cornwall, in a little village by the sea; if the two pubs there were to close it would be a disaster for the community, but the owners would make much more money selling them as desirable second homes. The same applies in London, because the property prices are so high. Many owners would rather sell their pubs and turn them in to luxury flats or something rather than keep them going, especially when the business rates issue is coming to the fore and there is fear of an enormous growth in the rates they will have to pay.
It is perfectly reasonable and very desirable that these amendments are supported. Pubs, as other noble Lords have said, are an essential part of the community. There have been examples where people have walked down the road and found that their pub suddenly has a barrier around it and is closed for good. They did not know that was going to happen as it was all done in secret.
There are many types of property in this country that have different constraints on them, and from my point of view pubs should be one of them because they are a very important part of the community. These are reasonable amendments and I fully support them.
My Lords, I declare my interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I should perhaps also declare a non-interest: I have never been involved in any way in running a pub but am simply an occasional and perhaps too frequent consumer.
I do not think any of us here are suggesting that all pubs should be preserved in aspic regardless of circumstances. Of course pubs become unviable for all sorts of reasons, such as different social trends or changes in the local neighbourhood. There are all sorts of reasons why a pub genuinely becomes no longer viable. However, there is a big difference between “not viable” and “not as profitable as it could be”. In other words, a building can certainly be used more profitably as something other than a pub; the site on which a pub stands could certainly be developed more profitably than by being retained as a pub. That is the difference, but no one here is suggesting that pubs should be retained regardless of local circumstances.
The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, referred several times to new, additional legislation. I suppose, since we are considering legislation, it is in a sense new legislation, but actually the effect of what is being proposed is simply that the consideration of any demolition or development of a public house should go through the normal planning process. I am not sure that strictly speaking that is what I would have understood by “new legislation”. What we are saying is that the local community should have its opportunity to give voice to its views on any proposed development of a public house in the normal way through the normal planning permission. The position at the moment is that through permitted development rights the owner or someone else has the right to demolish or develop the pub regardless of the local planning authority or the local community’s views. That is what is objectionable and it is one of the reasons, though not by any means the only one, why so many pubs are disappearing—because there are more profitable uses for the building and/or the site. That is what is causing so much concern.
The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, is probably right that some local authorities have possibly used the device of assets for community value rather too liberally or generously. Maybe so, but there is a good reason why they are doing that: it is the only way that they can avoid the problems with the permitted development rights. I think “assets of community value” was an excellent measure, introduced as it was by the coalition Government through the Localism Act—“localism”, incidentally, is a word that we do not hear very much these days—but it was put in there for rather different purposes than a blanket position to refer to all pubs in a particular local authority area regardless of circumstances.
All that is really being suggested here is not strictly new legislation but rather that we revert to the situation that used to apply that, if you wish to make appropriate changes to a building—in this case a public house—whether by demolition or redevelopment of the site, you apply to the local planning authority. It goes through the normal planning process; the local community has its opportunity to make representations and the planning applicant has its opportunity to make representations and the elected planning authority makes the decision. That is what is being proposed here—not that all pubs should be preserved regardless of circumstances or, alternatively, that all pub site owners should have the right to develop regardless. I very much support the amendments and I hope that they will be put to the vote. I hope, of course, that that vote will be successful, and I hope then that the Government will consider very seriously what seems to be—we may be about to prove it—a majority view on all sides of this House, which is most certainly the majority view in most if not all communities.
I spoke very briefly in Committee in support of this amendment, and I would like to do the same again now. I have no shares in pubs but, like many Members of your Lordships’ House, I have made a considerable investment in a number of pubs over the years and continue to do so.
I understand the points that the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, makes in an accountancy sense and a clinical sense. Of course, they are true. He talked about people drinking at home, which people are doing more of, as we know—but this is not about people drinking at home; it is about people drinking with other people, in the community, and all that brings to the community. It is not just about drinking anymore. I think of my local pub, which has wi-fi and excellent food—not just fish and chips on Friday, although it does that very well. It has an art gallery behind it and all sorts of things, including pub quizzes, of course. It is a major hub in the community and would be hugely missed.
I am sure that in your Lordships’ House we all have memories of pubs and pubs we currently use. They are a uniquely British institution. We are losing them too fast anyway and surely we should do anything we can to hang on to those that we have. There are good reasons why we might have some difficulties in keeping them open, but they are a uniquely British institution and this amendment is a very sensible one. I hope that the Minister feels minded to accept it.
My Lords, I agree very much with what the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, has just said. There is a big problem. The facts are these: more than 20 pubs are closing every week, and 2,000 pubs have been listed as assets of community value, but around another 40,000 have not been listed and, currently, have permitted development rights applied to them. As the London Borough of Wandsworth has demonstrated, it is possible for local authorities to use Article 4 directives on pubs, but that is a very complex process—and certainly in this respect far too complex for most areas.
I puzzled over the question of whether, if you have 2,000 pubs listed as assets of community value, there is actually a problem. If 2,000 community organisations can make a proposal for their pub to be listed, the process seems to work fairly well. However, there is another way of looking at that, which is the view that I take, which is that if communities feel that it is necessary to list 2,000 pubs as assets of community value, there is clearly a problem that needs to be solved, because 2,000 is a very large number. Of course, we have now experienced the fact that, despite 2,000 pubs being registered, large numbers have not been listed and have been lost. The solution is simply a minor amendment to the law to end permitted development rights and to require that any proposed change to a pub should secure planning permission. It is a simple remedy.
After Committee, when we had lengthy debates about this, I saw in my local newspaper in Newcastle reference to a research project. It had been carried out by Northumbria University and funded by the British Academy. The research, undertaken by Professor Ignazio Cabras and Dr Matthew Mount, showed that there was stronger community cohesion in parishes with pubs. They examined 284 parishes and demonstrated that, where there was a pub, there were more community events and clubs than in parishes without a pub—even in parishes with a sports or village hall. The very existence of a pub promoted community cohesion. Their conclusion was that we needed legislation to prevent unnecessary closures. That has convinced me that we need to do something to address this problem. Removing permitted development rights seems the most effective way. Many pubs may still close, as we have heard, but some will be enabled to stay open. That should be our objective.
My Lords, I support the amendment. Of course, pubs have to be closed where there is no business. All we are seeking is a filter so that there is an opportunity for the local community to make representations and consider it seriously. Planning laws cover so many—often very minor—things. It is not asking a lot that, if there were a request for a pub to be closed, at least a planning application would have to be made. This would mean that the local parish council—and I declare an interest as the chairman of my parish council—would have the opportunity to gather the views of the community. They could make their point to the planning authority—the district council—which may go the other way.
There are two reasons why pubs close. The main one is that there is not the business to keep them going. The other is that people buy pubs in order to convert them to houses. I know cases in Suffolk where that has happened. They buy them as going concerns and then, quite callously, seek planning permission to close them.
The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has a strong point and I hope the Minister will agree that, at least, closures should be subject to a planning application. I think it is pretty silly to have to get planning permission to put up a garden fence more than six feet high and eight feet from the road. All one is asking here is for the community to have the opportunity to express a voice.
My Lords, my name is attached to this amendment. I have no interest to declare in every sense of the word. I became interested because the area where I live has seen a great deal of development. Houses have been pulled down; big new estates have arrived. The very few local pubs have served as stabilising factors and community centres. They are places where people can meet to get to know each other and, in particular, they act as a sort of verbal noticeboard to find out what is going on in the community. Communities would be much impoverished were these pubs to be closed down more readily.
All this amendment is asking is that pubs should not be treated more casually than other demolitions and changes of use. There can be no harm in this. I hope that the Government will see the truth of it.
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in this debate, in which there has been a great deal of passion and much agreement. There is not anything that divides us on the basic tenet that we want to protect pubs. Where there is a difference is on the best way of doing that. There is no disagreement about the diagnosis, only about the remedy. One or two noble Lords were, perhaps, in error—or have expressed themselves ambiguously—on one point. If you are converting a pub to residential accommodation, you need planning permission; that is already the case and this would not alter that.
I thank the noble Lords, Lord Shipley, Lord Tope, Lord Scriven, and Lord Kennedy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, for speaking so effectively to the amendments. I reaffirm that the Government do recognise the importance that local communities place on valued community pubs. I have experience of this because, in another life, I was co-chair of the All-Party Beer and Pub Group in the National Assembly for Wales— one of my more pleasant jobs there—and met regularly with CAMRA and the British Beer and Pub Association. I was pleased to set out in Committee the range of support that we are providing to some communities to enable them to purchase their local pubs and to enable other pubs to diversify. I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, that this is a package of arrangements. It is not a silver bullet; we have to look at the problem more holistically.
Our package of fiscal measures—scrapping the beer and alcohol duty escalators and freezing beer duty at Budget 2016—has supported all pubs. These measures have made a considerable difference and have been widely welcomed across the House and in communities up and down the country. Some noble Lords have made the point that some pubs are not viable and no amendment we pass will make them so. There are others which we should seek to protect. There are things we can do today, but whatever we do will ameliorate and help the situation, not solve it with a silver bullet.
As I said I would in Committee, I have continued to give consideration to the issue of pubs and assets of community value, to try to do something that will address this across a range of pressure points and issues. I have met with the Campaign for Real Ale—an excellent organisation for which I have great respect—and the British Beer and Pub Association. I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, that it was clear from our meeting that they are much more of the view that we should have a review than that we should press this amendment. I was intent on listening to their views to see how the current arrangements work.
I am very keen to respond to the concerns that have been raised today, and it is clear that a delicate balance needs to be struck. Indeed, the evidence put forward by the Campaign for Real Ale does not necessarily point to permitted development rights as having the most significant impact on pubs. I am keen that we should look at this issue and the evidence available to us. It is clear from these conversations that the majority of pubs that change use do so following local consideration of a planning application in relation to residential development rights—or, in this case, non-rights.
Figures provided by CAMRA estimate that 90% of pubs changing use do require planning permission. Where this is the case, for example for the change of use to residential, there are strong policy protections for pubs. Paragraph 70 of the National Planning Policy Framework requires local planning authorities to deliver the social, recreational and cultural facilities and services that the community needs, including pubs. That is why it is important for local planning authorities to have relevant, up-to-date, local policies in place to support their decision-making.
In respect of the change of use or demolition of pubs under permitted development rights, as noble Lords will know, the current arrangements already provide protections for pubs that are valued by the community. As has been indicated in this debate, permitted development rights for change of use or demolition are removed from those pubs that are listed as an asset of community value for the period of the listing. I have had a look at the process of nominating as an asset of community value. It is not complicated and there is no fee attached to it. Communities have responded positively, and more than 4,000 assets have now been listed, of which over half are pubs; a “very large number” as the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, said.
That is a sign of success, not failure, but I agree that we have to see how we can do better. My starting point would be to look at the impediments to other pubs being listed as assets of community value. For example, it may be that some local authorities are not looking at this in the way they should. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, for coming up with some evidence, which we have certainly had a look at. That, together with other evidence I have heard, has persuaded me that we do need to consider the issue.
While we recognise the intent of the amendments, we cannot support them as such. However, that is not to say that there is no room for improvement. Clearly, there is. I believe that there is scope for improvement in the assets of community value area. I am pleased therefore to be able to offer—as an alternative to pushing this to a vote—that the Government will undertake an open and transparent review of the current arrangements in respect of assets of community value and the planning regime for pubs, including looking at permitted development rights. The review would start no later than straight after the local elections, with a clear commitment to report within six months—that is, to come back in the autumn with a view to taking action on whatever the review throws up.
We all want to protect assets of community value. The review would therefore look at the process of nominating and listing pubs as assets of community value—at how communities can better be supported to take advantage of the community right to bid and have a say in the future of their pubs, while appropriately safeguarding the rights of owners. We would invite detailed comments from communities, pub owners, local authorities and interested parties on where changes, improved guidance and other support would be helpful. This could include looking at whether there was a case for changing the planning rules—that would be part of the review.
For example, from my discussions it is clear that across the country there are inconsistencies of approach. The evidence brought forward by the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, demonstrated that and, of course, there are other examples of local authorities not applying the rules in the way they should. While decisions on whether to list a pub as an asset of community value are rightly matters for individual local authorities, we can look at whether further guidance for communities and local authorities would be helpful. In one case I heard about, a local authority did not want to list a pub because it served alcohol—which seems rather to miss the point of what we are seeking to do. So I would be keen to put a spotlight on cases like that and make sure that we get some sense into the system.
Alongside this, the review would consider the impact of the removal of permitted development rights for change of use—including the impact on owners. I would also be keen to look at issues around the raising of finance, which the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and others have raised. It is inconsistent; some financing bodies do not regard listing as an impediment while others do. The objective is to ensure we get best practice here. The review would enable us to look at this on a fairly short timescale and on a much broader front. This is not just about planning issues; it is broader than that. It is also about the assets of community value approach, which does work extremely well in many parts of the country. In the borough of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy—indeed, on his doorstep—the Ivy House, where he is, perhaps, an occasional rather than a frequent imbiber, appears to be working very successfully. So there are examples that we can use to inform this review of where the approach is working extremely successfully.
I would be content to put on the face of the Bill that we will have a statutory review within the timescale I have indicated. I do not think I can be fairer than that. This would look at things across the range and come up with evidence not just on the narrow area of planning permission but around the assets of community value scheme—which all parties have signed up to as a valuable process—to see if we can find a way forward.
I have been pleased to engage with noble Lords on these issues. We have had some good discussions and we share the aim of doing something positive. However, I believe that a review within this tight timescale would be the answer. I therefore ask the noble Lord and other noble Lords not to press their amendments.
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I am very grateful to them all. I agree very much with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Scriven. His analysis of the problems experienced in Sheffield was very telling and highlighted that action needs to be taken. The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, was right when he spoke about the variety of food and drinks sold in pubs. I live in Lewisham and the pubs there have different offerings depending on their clientele. The amendment simply asks that those who want to convert pubs apply for planning permission, and I am delighted to have the noble Lord’s support.
The most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York spoke about the need to protect profitable pubs and I very much concur with what he said. My noble friend Lord Berkeley made an important point about the value of pubs to the community, and he mentioned in particular Cornwall, where he lives. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, highlighted the loss of local pubs by the conversion of an asset through permitted development and not because they are failing businesses. I am also very grateful to have the support of the noble Lord, Swinfen. I thank, too, the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, for his supportive remarks. Like him, I have no shares in pubs, although I have spent quite a lot of money in them over the years.
I return to my earlier remarks about the visit to the House by representatives of the Royal Voluntary Service. They talked about how they would take people to a pub not just to have a drink but to meet their friends and family. They emphasised how that was an important part of getting people involved in their community.
The noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, was right: this is a modest proposal which simply allows the community to have a voice. The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, made an important point about the need to show that pubs are treated no less favourably or more casually than any other business.
That brings me to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, with whom I did not agree. It was an interesting intervention but it did not address the substance of my amendment in any way. This amendment is not about propping up failing businesses. If a business is failing and cannot pay its way, meet its liabilities and return a modest profit, it will close. Nothing in my amendment seeks to change that, and it would have no effect whatever on the type of issue that the noble Lord raised. Not one word of my amendment would keep open a pub or business that was failing and not meeting its liabilities. It would simply close a loophole and ensure that, specifically on change of use, a planning application would have to be made and the local community would get to have its say. It would do nothing more and nothing less, and really should cause the Government no problems whatever.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, for his remarks. I have great respect for him. He is an effective Minister and an effective operator in this House. He deals with all noble Lords with great skill and courtesy, as has been evident as he has taken the Bill through this House, and I am very grateful to him, as we all are. I have considered all the issues in today’s debate and in Grand Committee very carefully. I do not do anything by halves but clearly we are at the point of calling time on this debate, and I now want to test the opinion of the House.
Amendment 36 not moved.
Amendment 37 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.
38: After Clause 13, insert the following new Clause—
“Retrospective planning permission
(1) Where there has been a breach of planning control, as defined under section 171A of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 (“the 1990 Act”), the person or body who has caused the breach must make a retrospective planning application for planning permission under section 73A of the 1990 Act (planning permission for development already carried out).(2) In respect of a retrospective planning application, the person or body who has caused the breach of planning control is liable for the payment of fees or charges to the local planning authority in respect of the costs incurred in carrying out the functions connected with the retrospective planning application.(3) The person or body who has caused the breach of planning control is liable for the payment of a significant additional charge, connected to the retrospective nature of the planning application, in addition to the fees and charges the person or body is liable for under subsection (2).(4) In carrying out the functions connected with a retrospective planning application, the local planning authority must consult the people residing in the local area to which the retrospective planning application relates.”
My Lords, I have brought this amendment back in exactly the same form it had in Committee because I thought the comments the Minister made then really deserved to be re-examined. This is an important issue that ordinary people care about very much. Everyone is very unhappy to find suddenly that something has been given retrospective permission without them having any idea that it was even up for reconsideration.
As the Minister said on that day in Committee:
“How we deal with unauthorised development is an important issue that concerns many people”.
I think that is right. He also said:
“It is important to note that retrospective planning applications must be determined in exactly the same way as any other application, that is, in accordance with the development plan unless material considerations indicate otherwise”.—[Official Report, 6/2/17; col. GC 346.]
He then referred to what the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said about this, which was also interesting. The Minister mentioned that if somebody has deliberately concealed the fact that they are doing development, as in the famous haystack case, they can be required to demolish the property.
What I found most disappointing in what the Minister said was that the local authority concerned does have an obligation to consult people—I put the part about consultation in my amendment because local authorities are not doing so. Certainly, in the cases where I have been affected by retrospective planning permission, the first thing I have known about it is when I received a note saying, “We have granted planning permission” for whatever disastrous thing it was near me. I have met so many other people who have been in the same situation. If there is an obligation to consult the same people whom you would have consulted before, why is it not being done for retrospective permission? It all smells a little bit. Is this because someone is trying to slip something through retrospectively and feels that they will get away without any consultation or having to attach any conditions? It bears looking at again.
I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, who mentioned the serving of enforcement notices. The Minister certainly picked up the point about enforcement proceedings, but I am not suggesting going any further on those issues.
I must reiterate that my interest is declared in the register; I should perhaps have said that at the beginning.
The Minister went on to say, regarding enforcement, that,
“there is already a double charge”.—[Official Report, 6/2/17; col. GC 347.]
I had not appreciated that there was already a double charge, but apparently that is the case only if you have an enforcement notice. There is no extra charge if you have simply not applied and come back to get your permission, and the local authority has not notified those people who should be consulted. Is that because there is corruption, or is it laziness on their part? It is very important to have some way of ensuring that—it really would be good. The Minister said that it would not be helpful to delay effective enforcement action. All of these things are true, but why are they not adhering to the letter of the law as it is? Why are ordinary people suffering? They are finding that, instead of being able to insist that some reasonable condition that would suit everyone in the locality be included in the planning consent, and the planning authority would consider whether it was a justifiable condition to attach, they are simply not being consulted and are getting word after it is all over and done with.
I suggested a penalty fee in that proposal because planning officers to whom I have spoken have said to me that, at the moment, there is no disincentive whatever to going retrospectively for permission. You can be brave and just have a go and you have nothing to lose because you have no disadvantage: if you find out that you have not got permission, you go for it then and it does not cost anything more; you might have saved yourself a lot of time, trouble and bother, and you have just gone ahead with what you wanted. On the idea of a penalty fee, the Minister said:
“It is a matter which I know previous Governments have considered and to some extent grappled with, but in the interests of fairness have decided not to take forward”.—[Official Report, 6/2/17; col. GC 347.]
In speaking to other amendments in Committee, the Minister said that he would be looking very seriously at various things for secondary regulation, as to what should or should not be regulated and what should or should not be considered. However, I believe that this is the sort of instance that should be looked into. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has said to me that this is more complicated than I imagine. I am sure, from his wisdom and knowledge, which is very great on these subjects, that I would accept that that probably is a fact, but it does not mean that it cannot be investigated and looked into. If, as I understood from the answers in Committee, there is going to be all this consideration of future regulations, then this merits being looked at much more closely. Rather than going on and on, because we have an awful lot to get through today, I beg to move.
My Lords, this matter was debated briefly in Committee. I made the point then that I had a good deal of sympathy with the intentions of the noble Baroness’s amendment requiring a retrospective planning application, although it did not seem to me that the rest of her proposals—with all due respect—had been fully thought through in terms of how they might be applied.
In particular, subsection (2) in the amendment is unnecessary, because if there was a planning application then, of course, fees would have to be paid. There is also a real problem with subsection (3)—I think I said this to her in Committee as well—which prescribes the payment of an additional charge without giving any indication of how that might be calculated. I suggested that the matter could have gone forward on the basis that that would be determined by secondary legislation, but that has not appeared in this amendment. For those reasons, I am afraid that we cannot support the noble Baroness’s amendment, although I suspect that she will not divide the House in any event. While her intention is very good, the means of carrying it through do not quite meet what is required.
My Lords, I draw attention to my interest as a councillor in the borough of Kirklees and as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.
I agree with the principle behind the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes. The issue that she has brought to our attention is important, although, in common with the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, I am not entirely clear that the amendment that she has drafted will address the fundamentals behind the issue that she is trying to address.
This issue is important because, currently, irresponsible individuals who believe that they can avoid the irritation of planning regulations and legislation go ahead and build at their own risk. They know they are taking a risk; no doubt they assess the risk of getting away with the development which might otherwise be turned down were planning permission sought in the normal way. Of course, that risk assessment might well be right. Certainly in my experience as a local councillor over a number of years, several developers got away with taking that risk and so had a development that they might not otherwise have been granted permission for.
The issue is that planning enforcement in local planning authorities has been depleted as a consequence of the cuts to local government. That has meant there are not enough planning enforcement officers to investigate where development takes place without planning permission except in the most outrageous cases. Even then, there is an example in my own area where a vast house, described locally as a palace because it was of that sort of scale, was built without planning consent. Enforcement action was taken, and it was agreed that it could stay. That person got a substantial financial advantage out of avoiding planning consent. It seems that the balance of the rules—in planning, it is nearly always a question of balance—is now weighed too heavily against enforcement and in favour of those individuals who want to take a punt against planning law and regulations.
I hope that the Minister will look at planning enforcement in the way he looked at planning fees to strengthen that area of local government planning departments and see whether planning enforcement could be reinforced. Every time an individual takes a punt against planning legislation and going through the proper routes and gets away with it, it undermines everything that we have discussed in this and the previous planning Bill. Most people do the right thing; those who do not and get away with it seriously undermine that level of community responsibility that enables us to have planning policies and rules that help everybody. That is my plea, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, for raising this issue.
My Lords, having listened to the debate, I will intervene briefly because this issue goes back a long way. I declare my interest as a vice-president of the LGA and many years ago I was a councillor.
One thing that happens is that, if people get away with this once, they go on doing it again and again. I was once successful in persuading the planning committee to say to this man, “You must change what you have done”, to stop him in his tracks. However, there is a bit of a nasty turn to this, because I was standing at the bus stop in front of the building where he had to change the windows at the top and I heard this lady say, “Oh dear, it is a terrible waste of money doing that, isn’t it?”. That may have been the case, but this is important. I did not realise that nothing had been done in the time since I dealt with this issue years ago. The real problem is that, if nothing is done, people who do it once go on doing it again. We need to take that into account when listening to this argument.
My Lords, it is 43 years since I was on a planning committee and I am sure that the law has changed a lot. However, when I was an MP, I became involved in a case in the Lake District in which someone built a building without planning permission, and there was subsequently a row. The conclusion I drew was: “Knock it down”. The law allows too much flexibility. The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, mentioned risk. People are prepared to take a risk, and the only way in which we can make this law work well is if we are far more vigorous in its application.
My Lords, I very much agree with what has been said and thank my noble friend Lady Gardner for tabling the amendment. I am conscious that we all want to make progress. This is an area where, in time, we should have some examination and this is not a statutory matter to address now.
I always conceive planning as being about good neighbourliness. One of the problems is that retrospective planning applications often come in when someone has encroached a little too much and not quite followed the drawings. Then, because a neighbour who has opposed an application is cross, they go to the council and say what they want to happen. One can get into a whole rigmarole involving costs, not only of retrospective application but of demands to building control such as, “Are you coming?”, “I don’t think that they are building on the right line”, or, “They are moving that hedge”.
Such areas, which seem small, have an impact on the issue of consent in the planning system, about which I have spoken to your Lordships in Committee on this and other Bills. For many reasons, including that given by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, my noble friend’s amendment does not work but I hope that we will hear some sympathetic sounds—I know we always do—from my noble friend on the Front Bench. This is an issue on which the Government might reflect as time goes by, because there is a sense that a lot of injustice is done out there by those who willingly or unwillingly play the system. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, that local authorities are generally loath to intervene unless it is a big issue. Planning officers ask themselves, “Would I have refused the planning application for that one or two-foot encroachment?”. These are the kind of considerations that apply. People should do what they promise they are going to do; that is what the system is about and should be delivered. People should not play the system.
I do not think that we can take this matter further now but hope that my noble friend will think about it over the months and perhaps years—I hope not too many years—ahead and closely examine where the frontier between consent and abuse of consent should be.
My Lords, I should declare an interest as an honorary officer of the Campaign for National Parks. I am glad that the noble Baroness has introduced her amendment and is standing by it here on Report because this is a worrying development. A growing number of people deliberately defy the regulations that are meant to operate. It is not just a matter of building something for which they do not have permission and looking for retrospective approval; a more sinister element is that they get approval with conditions attached—for example, compliance with national parks’ general policy. However, the people then try to do what they want with the building and do not observe the conditions. There is an indication that they are doing this believing, for example, that the national park authority will be hesitant about pursuing them because it is worried about its budget, the costs and all the rest if that person appeals.
We must take seriously the prospect that the quality of an area can change within a short period because, once one person has done it, there is an invitation for all sorts of other people to do it too. I am glad that the noble Baroness is making a stand.
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in this debate on Amendment 38. I particularly thank my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes, who has vast experience of not just national politics but, in particular, London politics. I know she feels very strongly about this issue. I have great respect for her and for the way she has presented the case. I am conscious that she has raised it on a number of occasions, most recently in Grand Committee.
Other noble Lords participated in the debate and sympathise with the general thrust of what my noble friend is seeking to achieve. They include the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, who stunningly remembers being on a planning committee 43 years ago. It is hard to appreciate that, but he clearly has vast experience in this area. There were also the noble Baronesses, Lady Pinnock and Lady Maddock, and my noble friend Lord True, who talked about good neighbourliness, which goes to the essence of it. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, sympathised with the thrust of what is being said here.
At the outset, I remind noble Lords that one thing that we are seeking to achieve in this legislation and more generally as a Government—supported, I think, by noble Lords from around the House—is localism, and therefore we have to be a little careful about resisting the temptation every time something goes wrong to weigh in and say, “That is not the right way to do it”. I appreciate that there is more to it than that, but we need to keep that sense of perspective in our minds.
The ideal is, of course, that everybody should seek planning permission before they start work. That is what the majority expect and, indeed, what the majority of people do. Sadly, as my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes has experienced, that does not always happen. We therefore need a way to deal with these cases. Where a local authority considers that a planning application is the appropriate way forward, it can invite a retrospective planning application. Otherwise, local authorities have at their disposal a wide range of enforcement powers.
My noble friend’s amendment calls for changes to the retrospective planning application process. I am afraid that the Government’s position on this has not changed. I think I said in Committee, and I say again now, that there are many cases where there is a genuine error, so we need this process to deal with that situation rather than a harsher regime. The retrospective planning application process is there primarily to give those who have made a genuine mistake the opportunity to rectify the situation, but I appreciate that the examples that get into the media are much higher profile than that. We have had the haystack case, the palace in Kirklees and so on. Different considerations will apply there.
Local authorities have other tools at their disposal. Local planning authorities have flexibility, but planning applications have to be determined in the same way as any other application. My noble friend did not receive notification of the planning application. That is a mistake under the current law, and we need to look at proper enforcement. If she is able to bring forward evidence of the process not being followed, I would be very keen to look at it with officials, and I undertake to do so. I am sure that there are things that we can be doing better in relation to that with a view perhaps to looking to the future rather than this legislation. She has highlighted an important problem.
There is no guarantee that planning permission will be granted just because the development already exists. We have seen examples where that has not been the case, so we know that there are local authorities that are tough and are probably doing the right things in relation to some development. In some cases, the impact of the development may be mitigated by imposing planning conditions on the retrospective grant of planning permission. Otherwise, local planning authorities have a wide range of enforcement powers, with strong penalties for non-compliance, at their disposal. Where an enforcement notice is served and the person appeals on the ground that planning permission ought to be granted, the person is deemed to have made an application for planning permission and must pay a fee. That fee is twice the fee that would have been payable in respect of a planning application to the relevant authority seeking permission for the matters stated in the enforcement notice. This is in recognition of the additional work and would obviously act as a disincentive in that situation.
My noble friend’s amendment would make retrospective planning applications compulsory for all breaches of planning control. As I say, we cannot accept that because we see situations where that would be inappropriate, as I think successive Governments have done. It would be difficult to enforce and could lead to delays and additional burdens. My noble friend’s suggestion of a penalty fee in addition to charges in respect of the costs incurred by the local planning authority would unfairly penalise those who had made a genuine error, and discourage the submission of such an application for proper consideration by the local planning authority.
That said, I recognise that my noble friend has brought forward a very important issue. As I say, if she is able to come forward with some evidence of local planning authorities not doing what they should be doing and not enforcing the law, I would be very keen to see that; if other noble Lords have experience of it, I would be very keen to see that too. I can give that undertaking. However, while thanking my noble friend for bringing forward an important issue which clearly has resonance around the House, for the reasons I have outlined and in the light of the undertakings I have given, I respectfully ask her if she would withdraw her amendment.
My Lords, I thank those who have spoken. I have been very impressed by how clear they have been and by how many have had direct experience of exactly what I have brought forward, which encourages me to think that we have a case that should be looked at. On my last amendment, the Minister remarked helpfully that he would be willing to look at the issues raised, particularly in terms of secondary legislation that was possibly going to come forward later in the year. If he could similarly assure me that this would be the case here, and the matter would not be just dropped and forgotten, I would be very happy to accept that assurance. It is an important issue, and ordinary people feel justifiably aggrieved when something like that happens and they did not even have the opportunity to know that it was going to happen before suddenly getting the letter which says “We have granted permission”. You did not even know anything was going to be considered, and it has gone through the whole retrospective permission without anyone being notified.
Perhaps the Minister could do something to ensure that people considering retrospective permissions see that the correct consultation takes place and that people know that these matters are being considered. It is very upsetting for people when they suddenly find out that it is all a fait accompli. A very telling point indeed was made that if someone is doing this as a deliberate policy, they will do it again and again. A lot has come out in the debate today and I just hope that the Minister will say that he will look thoroughly into these issues in terms of possible regulations or secondary legislation on the subject at a later date.
My Lords, I shall respond to my noble friend’s suggestion. There is certainly no intention to postpone action on this where action is needed, but I would first like to see the evidence of what the problem is before identifying possible solutions to it. I certainly give her the undertaking that I very much look forward to her bringing forward evidence, but some of this seems to relate not so much to not having the legal process there but to the legal process not being enforced. If we see evidence of that, we can look at how it can be properly enforced, but I am very happy to engage in discussion with my noble friend. I think she knows me well enough to know that that would not be with a view to postponing action but with a view to amassing the evidence so that we can look at this.
I thank the Minister for that undertaking, which is very valuable. It is up to us now, particularly those who have spoken today and who clearly have direct experience of this. I would be very grateful if they would bring forward cases that they have come across so that the Minister has a fairly good list of things, ranging over different parts of the country, because the practice varies from place to place. He has given a very fair answer to my debate and for that reason I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 38 withdrawn.
38A: After Clause 13, insert the following new Clause—
“Planning: duty to have regard to the protection of ancient woodland and veteran and aged trees
In section 197 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 (planning permission to include appropriate provision for preservation and planting of trees), after paragraph (b) insert—“(c) to refuse permission for any development which may result in the loss or deterioration of ancient woodland, and the loss of aged or veteran trees found outside ancient woodland, unless the need for, and benefits of, the development in that location are wholly exceptional;(d) to refuse permission for a development in respect of which there is insufficient provision made for the preservation of woodland and planting of trees; and(e) to impose any such conditions and make any such orders as are necessary to protect woodland and trees.(2) The local planning authority must—(a) ensure that all planning applications are compatible with the protection and enhancement of the environment; and(b) ensure that the protection and enhancement of the environment is identified as a strategic priority in the authority’s area under section 19 or 35 of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004.(3) In this section—(a) “ancient woodland” means an area that has been continuously wooded since the year 1600;(b) “veteran and aged trees” means trees which because of their age, size or condition are of exceptional value culturally, in the landscape or to wildlife.””
My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my chairmanship of the Woodland Trust and my interests as president or vice-president of a range of conservation organisations as recorded in the register of interests.
First I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, who, in my absence abroad, led on this amendment in Committee. I also thank noble Lords who spoke so eloquently in support of the amendment. It seems to have done the trick—because I also want to thank the Minister and the Government, who have responded since then, in the housing White Paper, to the evidence of increasing damage to ancient woodland and veteran and aged trees with a strong statement of commitment to increasing their protection. All of us in this House, in the other place and among the wider conservation community, and all those who value ancient woodland, are very grateful. The Minister may therefore find it a bit churlish of me to move my amendment again, but let me explain why I am doing so.
I am delighted that the Government have clearly recognised the importance of ancient woodland and the need for better protection, and put forward a proposal for consultation to include ancient woodland in a rather bizarre little list in footnote 9 of the current National Planning Policy Framework. Planners would be encouraged by this footnote to recognise ancient woodlands as being as valuable as the rest of the list, which includes sites of special scientific interest, national parks and green-belt land, meaning that the development which impacts on them should be more definitively restricted. The list is also strengthened in that it is no longer just a set of examples but intended to be a clear list of categories of land where development should be restricted. I absolutely welcome the Government’s intention to improve protection but fear that the actual proposal will not deliver that very welcome intention.
I have two concerns about the footnote list approach. First, the list includes a range of types of protected land, all of which have got very different levels of protection. I can give two examples. Sites of special scientific interest have had strong protection for some time, and indeed the rate of loss or damage to SSSIs has dropped hugely over the last 20 years—from the early 1990s, when 15% of SSSIs were lost or damaged every year, to the position now where only about 0.1% of SSSIs suffer damage each year. But at the other end of the spectrum of this list are local green spaces, which, alas, get challenged by development on a regular basis. It is therefore not clear what level of protection amending this footnote would result in, in practice, for ancient woodland.
My second concern is that each of these categories in the list has its own corresponding policy wording in a specific full paragraph elsewhere in the NPPF, and ancient woodland is no exception. The relevant wording is paragraph 118:
“planning permission should be refused for development …unless the need for, and benefits of, the development in that location clearly outweigh the loss”.
A kind of balancing act is described there. It is absolutely clear that the wording in paragraph 118 is currently failing to deliver sufficient protection for ancient woodland. It seems to imply—and I know that planners interpret it this way—that the protection of ancient woodland is optional if the development has benefits. We know from surveys that that is how planners see it. I believe that paragraph 118 also needs to be addressed if we are really going to secure the clarity of increased protection that I am sure the Government intend in such an admirable way.
My amendment would place protection in equivalent terms on the face of the Bill—though in reality none of us wants that. What we need is one further change in paragraph 118, and I urge the Minister to seriously consider adopting the revised wording that has been suggested previously by several parties who have already considered this matter in some detail, including the Communities and Local Government Select Committee, the All-Party Group on Ancient Woodland and Veteran Trees, and the Woodland Trust. The wording that is being commended by those groups in paragraph 118 would make it clear that:
“Substantial harm to or loss of irreplaceable habitats such as ancient woodland should be wholly exceptional”.
That is an equivalent wording to the level of protection given to heritage buildings.
So I hope that the Minister does not judge me ungrateful. It cannot be often that a new White Paper commitment comes within days of an intervention in the House of Lords. I am sure that it was entirely due to the skilful advocacy of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, and the other noble Lords who supported the amendment in Committee, though I have a sneaky feeling that, as a result of the logic of the case and the persuasion by a range of groups and parliamentarians across both Houses, the Minister has actually been cooking up this improved commitment for some time. There was a bit of winking and nodding going on at each of my meetings with Ministers in both Defra and the DCLG.
This further wording would ensure that there was no confusion in the minds of the planning authority or the developers about the Government’s intended protection. That cannot be anything other than a benefit in the drive to deliver houses for people. It would help developers by making it clear that ancient woodland should be avoided, and hence streamline a process that might otherwise get bogged down when the controversial damage of ancient woodland is enthusiastically campaigned against by local communities or conservation bodies.
There is much to play for. Since the NPPF was introduced in March 2012, more than 40 ancient woodlands have suffered loss or damage from development. The Woodland Trust is currently dealing with more than 700 ancient woodlands under threat across the UK, and the number continues to grow. One last tweak to paragraph 118 of the NPPF could deliver a landmark improvement. I hope the Minister, who has been absolutely ace so far in his support, can get that one further change to the NPPF and complete the package. I beg to move.
My Lords, I support the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone. I think the words “clearly outweigh the loss” are not going to give the same protection that “wholly exceptional” would. For those of us interested in this issue, and that now includes many people, our campaign and indeed our mission is to turn the fine words about and growing understanding of the value of trees and woodlands, particularly ancient woodlands, into action. In this, the lead given by the Government is crucial.
It is a question of priorities. In planning terms, the balance between the built environment and the natural environment is slowly being understood. Trees are not just an adornment to the built environment but play a much more important role in so many ways. In our rush to build more houses, it is important that the role of trees is kept at the top of the agenda. Ancient woodlands are so very valuable and, although planning deliberations can sometimes drag on for years and be extremely complicated, a thoughtless 10 minutes with a JCB can do untold and irreparable damage.
The amendment would give greater clarity to developers, who would be better aware of what they could and could not do. It would fit very well with the idea of every planning authority holding maps and registers of ancient woodlands and important trees, saving everyone time and money as well as protecting the ancient woodlands. The current White Paper is extremely interesting and helpful but the Bill is our current vehicle for these important changes. It is an opportunity not to be missed. If you let one vehicle go, you never quite know when the next one will come along—and what ancient woodlands may be damaged in the meantime.
The Minister has been extremely helpful and constructive in all these debates, but he knows what a significant effect a modest tightening of the law can sometimes have without detriment to the planning process. This is just such an issue, and I hope he will be able to accept the amendment.
My Lords, I am very attracted to the amendment. I agree with everything that I have heard, and I am encouraged. I know the Minister is himself very keen on trees, green spaces and ancient woodland.
It is terribly important, given what the noble Baroness was saying, not to forget how, especially in underprivileged areas, trees and green spaces have been shown in recent research to have a quite astonishing effect on the well-being, the social cohesion, of a society. We really have to treasure these trees. I am pleased to see that we are talking about not just ancient woodland but the odd oak tree that has been there for 300 years and which can be for a community a kind of fulcrum—a meeting point, something which generates huge affection. The fact that sometimes these trees have been, as the noble Lord has just said, bulldozed out because of a slip or because stringent due attention was not paid to them is often a tragedy for a local community.
I note that in proposed new paragraph (c) in Amendment 38A there is the caveat that the development in that location is “wholly exceptional”. The Government and the Minister therefore have a way out in this clause—it is not absolute. Where woodland communities are concerned in their relationship to them, we have to be as strong as possible in protecting ancient woodland, trees and green-space areas.
I am very glad to support my noble friend in this amendment. She has put the case admirably this afternoon. I, too, am deeply impressed by the Minister. I have been in this place a long time now, and I find it difficult to think of a Minister who has gone out of his way more generously to try to meet wishes expressed in the context of serious debate. We had a very serious and useful debate in Committee.
Ancient trees and woodlands are almost impossible to value, because they have so much significance. I am particularly concerned in this context with urban areas. We are desperate to build houses and we very much need more houses in this country; it has to be a priority and we have to get on with it—but it is not just about putting people into shoeboxes. It is about putting people into a situation in which they can live and in which their imaginations can be stimulated—in which they can feel the spiritual dimensions of life, as the noble Lord has just said. All trees contribute in that context, but ancient trees have particularly powerful significance. Of course, if there are imaginative teachers in local schools, there can be references in the context of the education going on in those schools to what those trees represent in terms of the history of the country. We are at a time when we are very worried about national identity; we are very worried about people feeling what it means to be British and how the roots of being British are planted. Of course, the tree is a link to the past; what the tree has witnessed in its life is almost invaluable. From that standpoint, we ought to be very certain indeed that we are doing everything possible to protect trees in the situations that might threaten them.
I too find the wording in the Bill not convincing. Sometimes, there is an urban community—perhaps a relatively deprived community—where there are trees that matter in the ways we have been describing. What happens when it comes to the development process? You have the big forces of development—the big boys at work. How does the community assert itself effectively? We want to make sure that it can and that those who are concerned for the community can make representations on its behalf.
Personally, I would always like a total ban and to say that developers everywhere should do their development around the trees, particularly where there are ancient trees. This would be the ideal, but what we are putting forward seems to be a reasonable compromise. I much appreciate the sincerity and commitment of the Minister in trying to find ways of meeting our concerns. So I support him in every way I can—together with others, I am sure—by saying: let us just go this further mile and make sure what he has already been trying to do can be done well and effectively. I believe my noble friend’s amendment will make this possible.
My Lords, in Committee we heard powerful arguments both for retaining veteran and ancient woodlands and for the planting of new trees in new estates. I welcome the proposals in the White Paper but, as the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, has said, this is the vehicle that we are discussing now. So I support this amendment, as I feel strongly that trees in any form hugely enhance an urban setting. They can ameliorate the sterility and newness so often and inevitably associated with such new developments. It is not just landscape or townscape; it is biodiversity and ecology that are improved. It also has a beneficial effect on the people, young and old, who live in the new community; it is they who will benefit from these trees. Trees and plants promote respect and foster community by softening the architecture and giving scope for educational projects.
In Committee, I gave a long list of benefits associated with urban tree planting, so I will not repeat them now. I will merely say that trees add value to a scheme, over and above any detriments that one can imagine. As to what those detriments may be, I await the Minister's reply, as I cannot discern any. When he answered in Committee, he had none, except to cite the forthcoming White Paper. I thank him for what this will do, but support the greater aims of this amendment.
My Lords, from these Benches, I support the intent behind this welcome amendment. I too thank the Minister and the Government for what they have already committed to do. If we could just nudge them a little further, it would give life to the position that this House made clear in Committee—which is that we believe there should be an equivalence of protection for ancient woodlands. At Second Reading, the noble Baroness, Lady Young, used the memorable phrase,
“the cathedrals of the natural world”.—[Official Report, 17/1/17; col. 161.]
We need to be clear that the wording has to be watertight. We have seen with the National Planning Policy Framework that every word matters. We have boiled down planning policy guidance and we need planners to be clear about the level of protection that the Government want to offer to ancient woodland. If it is not given an equivalence in the wording, then there will be arguments about the level of protection that the Government wish to see and that this House has so clearly articulated that it would wish them to give.
That equivalence is important but if we do not do it now, at an early stage when we are beginning to understand the natural capital resources in trees—their cultural, social and biodiversity significance—there will be endless arguments among planners as this emerging field develops. The Minister’s clear statement that the Government want to give protection to ancient woodlands is welcome. With a small step in this direction, and tightening the wording of the NPPF, the Government could give us confidence that this intention can actually be delivered on the ground.
My Lords, I could not agree more with the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. There is a strong argument for consistency of vocabulary and for the notion of significance in planning and the treatment of national assets. Paragraph 132 of the NPPF states that:
“The more important the asset, the greater the weight should be. Significance can be harmed or lost through alteration or destruction … As heritage assets are irreplaceable, any harm or loss should require clear and convincing justification”.
This new status has taken many years to achieve. I remember having discussions in the department about how to increase the protection of ancient woodlands at least a decade ago. Thanks to the Minister and his officials, we have now got to the point where we recognise that there is an equivalence between a natural and a built asset. When we are dealing with the question of loss—even more than damage, in terms of ancient woodlands—it is fair to look at what equivalence can be made in relation to the NPPF. It is not just the use of language but the significance we attach to the notion of damage, and how extensive or irreparable it is, and to what it means to be wholly exceptional.
The formula which my noble friend Lady Young has come up with is quite sensible. It will save time and grief for planning authorities and people who have to deal with balancing these issues. Greater clarity and some consistency would be a help rather than an obstacle to achieving the objective and facilitating development.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, for her kind words and for raising again the important issue of protecting our ancient woodlands and veteran and aged trees. She should not underestimate the role she has played in putting this on the agenda. She made a very powerful case, as did other noble Lords. I thank noble Lords who have participated in the discussion, including my noble friend Lord Framlingham, the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, and the noble Duke, the Duke of Somerset. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, spoke with great force and passion as he always does on these issues; his generous words were most kind. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, about ensuring that we have watertight protection, and with the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, who talked about consistency of vocabulary and these “irreplaceable assets”.
In Committee we had a range of passionate and compelling speeches including from many noble Lords who have spoken to this amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, the noble Lord, Lord Judd, the noble Duke, the Duke of Somerset, and my noble friend Lord Framlingham all spoke then, and again today, about protecting these irreplaceable natural resources. The noble Baroness, Lady Young, so evocatively—almost hauntingly—described them as the “cathedrals of the natural world”. I do not know whether she has ever thought about taking up another career as a wordsmith, but there is a Daphne du Maurier role to be carved out there. For somebody such as me, who is particularly attracted to cathedrals, that haunting image certainly brings it to life.
We have responded positively and are now consulting on the housing White Paper. This is not part of the legislation but part of the housing White Paper; we have succeeded in getting it in there and are very much committed to this. At the end of the consultation the Government will, we hope, clarify the protections for ancient woodlands and aged and veteran trees along the lines we have been talking about in this debate. The proposed change would put policies on ancient woodland and aged and veteran trees alongside other national policies. I am pleased that the proposal was warmly welcomed by the Woodland Trust and I thank the Trust for its role in helping on this. I believe we are making massive progress.
A consultation on the White Paper is open until 2 May. I encourage noble Lords and, through them, other sympathetic organisations, to contribute to the consultation, so that we can achieve something along the lines that noble Lords have been discussing. We are holding engagement sessions with a variety of groups alongside the consultation, so that everyone has the opportunity to contribute their views. The consultation will enable us to work together with these parties on appropriate protection for these irreplaceable assets and habitats.
I understand how passionately the noble Baroness and others feel about this subject, for which she has certainly been a tireless advocate. The proposed change to the NPPF would further protect our ancient woodland. We will work constructively to ensure that any concerns raised during the consultation—as I said, I hope people will put their concerns into the consultation—are taken forward. However, we cannot pre-empt the outcome of the White Paper consultation. Having opened the consultation until 2 May, we have to wait for that process to unroll. With the commitment given that the Government are determined properly to protect these assets and cathedrals of the natural world, this is the best way for us to move forward. I am very happy to continue to engage on this with the noble Baroness and others, including the Woodland Trust, on how we move things forward, but it has to be through the consultation, to ensure we follow process in the fair and proper way.
With the assurance that I am very happy to meet the noble Baroness—and, as I said, other noble Lords who may wish to join that process as well as the Woodland Trust—again following this debate, I respectfully ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who spoke so helpfully and supportively in this debate. It is wonderful to have this degree of support for these cathedrals of the natural world. I have to make a terrible admission to the Minister: I discovered in my research that he is rather keen on cathedrals, so it seemed a good idea to call these the cathedrals of the natural world. I thank the Minister very much for his kind words about the case. They are irreplaceable; we do need equivalent protection. I thank noble Lords who pointed out the value of ancient woodland, the help recognition of this would give to both planners and developers to avoid conflict for the future, and the need to strengthen the NPPF further.
The Minister kindly pointed out that the consultation, which he cannot pre-empt, goes on until 2 May. I hope he realises that means there are three months of wall-to-wall pressure heading in his direction, as we gird the loins of many others to respond to the consultation along the lines of the support that has been given in this House. I hope this is another of the Minister’s nods and winks but, no doubt, we shall find out only at the end of the consultation period. So, with many thanks to all supporters and to the Minister for the help he has given so far, I look forward to the next three months of enunciating this case, until the point where, eventually we get the change that is needed to bring into effect the very real and welcome commitment that the Government have shown. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 38A withdrawn.
38B: After Clause 13, insert the following new Clause—
“Local determination of the application of prior approval for conversion from office to residential use
(1) Notwithstanding—(a) any section of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015, the Town and Country (General Permitted Development) (England) (Amendment) Order 2016, or(b) any section of any other order or regulation purporting to convey a right to developers to automatic prior approval of the conversion of an office (Class B1(a)) or retail premises to residential use (Class C3), or the demolition of such premises for such conversion,consent may be refused by the local planning authority for the conversion, or demolition for conversion, of any such office or retail space to residential use, if the local authority has, by a majority vote in Council, passed a formal resolution stating that the purported right to approval for such demolition or conversion without full planning consideration shall no longer apply within that local authority planning area, or in any part of it.(2) In reaching any decision on the conversion of offices to residential use the local planning authority shall be able to take account of all representations from the public or from local businesses, and of all aspects of an approved local plan, neighbourhood plan or supplementary planning document incorporated within an approved local plan, provided that it has previously passed a resolution under subsection (1).(3) A resolution under subsection (1) may only be adopted if the local planning authority has laid before the Council no less than a week prior to the vote under subsection (1) a report demonstrating that—(a) the operation of prior approval is damaging local businesses and the local economy and that planning control over the retention of office space is necessary for the future economic development of the area, or(b) active businesses within the area covered by the resolution are being expelled from office or retail space to enable its conversion to residential use.(4) No resolution may be adopted under subsection (1) if the local authority concerned has not met its housing targets in the preceding year, or cannot satisfactorily demonstrate in the report tabled under subsection (3) that it will exceed those targets in the year concerned.(5) A copy of the report laid under subsection (3) must be submitted to the Secretary of State no later than the day on which the agenda for the Council meeting concerned is published.(6) The Secretary of State may set aside, within three months of its passing, any resolution made by a local planning authority under subsection (1) if the Secretary of State does not consider that conditions under subsection (3)(a) and (b) are being met.”
My Lords, I apologise for bringing new material before the House at this stage of the Bill, though I did give notice that I might do so at the previous stage. This Bill has been scheduled in a way that could not be more difficult for me. I declare an interest as the leader of a London borough and this evening is our annual budget council meeting, which begins at 7 pm. Looking at the clock, this will probably be the first council meeting in 20 years on the Front bench for which I have been late—I hope I will not miss it, as I hope your Lordships are not that prolix. But it is a testimony to the importance that I feel this matter deserves.
This is something that came up during the passage of the Housing and Planning Act last Session and I argued the point at some length. Ultimately it was stated that it was a red line for the then Chancellor of the Exchequer. I felt that his red lines were around trying to ensure it was possible to oust small businesses in the suburbs of London and that, had he found his red lines somewhere else, perhaps history might have evolved differently. But that is the past. I have since found, having been given some indication that there would be a readiness to discuss this matter, a willingness to discuss it, personified by my noble friend on the Front Bench. This is entirely distinct from the attitude that I encountered not so long ago and I am enormously grateful for that. I underline everything that so many noble Lords have said in the passage of the Bill about the open and thoughtful conduct of my noble friends on the Front Bench and indeed of Ministers. I met the Minister, Mr Barwell, this morning and I found the same open response there.
In a nutshell, this long amendment is about trying to close off some of the issues that were raised with me on the previous occasion. Under the system that was introduced in May 2013, permitted development rights allow office floor space—classified B1 in the technicalities —to be converted to residential space without planning permission. In some areas of the country that is fine. Indeed, these changes have made a great contribution to housing development, including in my own borough, where no one has an interest in defending redundant office space. At no stage have I wished to strike down the willingness of local authorities to go along with that power and use it.
The problem is that in some areas, including my own authority of Richmond, which is a conspicuous example, the difference in value between office property—or, for instance, a stables in my ward that has been affected—and residential property is so great, at 3:1 or 4:1, that the policy has acted as a magnet for unscrupulous developers. I have even traced one or two with offshore designations. They come in, buy properties and begin to expel working businesses. As a Conservative, this is absolutely contrary to everything I believe in and to what our party stands for—aspiring for people who work hard. Indeed, how often do we hear such things from all Benches in this House?
It is wrong that, to make profits for somebody else who has no interest in the community, offices and business premises can be closed. This should at least be subject to local determination. I do not wish to trouble the House at too great a length, as that would repeat some of what I said last year, but in Richmond, up to last autumn, we had 251 of these so-called prior approvals and we have lost more than 30% of our overall floor space. In more than half of the cases, the offices subject to prior approval were, in the jargon, either fully or partly occupied. That meant someone was trying to make a living or was employed there. The owner saw an opportunity to make a profit on this arbitrage between the two classes and pushed somebody out. I think that is wrong, as do all of us in local authorities and local government. There was a wonderful malapropism from my noble friend earlier when he said that the “interesting” parties would be consulted. I am not sure that most people find local government very interesting but we are certainly interested.
We come across many personal cases of people who are homeless, terribly sick, suffering from dementia or in poverty, but one of the most difficult things I have found has been having to explain the situation to constituents—in one case, the grandson of somebody who founded a business in the premises from which they were being ousted so that a developer could make a profit. Therefore, I have put forward some proposals for how this might be addressed, although I make no claim that my solution is necessarily the best one. I look forward with interest to hearing what my noble friend on the Front Bench has to say.
Article 4, which is often proposed as a solution, is not perfect. It is too slow. In the case of prior approval, the new buildings make no contribution to infrastructure —schools, transport or health—and are not required to meet space standards. There is no consideration of loss of business rates or council tax income and so on, and under Article 4 planning fees do not come to the local authority. The current provisions of Article 4 do not allow a planning authority to demand a fee for associated planning applications, so even the standard approval application charge of £80 is lost. Of greater concern is the loss of the planning application fee.
In my borough, according to the figures that I have been given, the 251 prior applications determined would previously have generated fees of in excess of £400,000 but rendered just £20,000 for the borough under the prior approval process. There is a massive gain for the arbitragers and a massive loss for the local authority. A much sharper process will have to be introduced swiftly into Article 4 if we are to address this matter. The problem shifts because the arbitragers move very fast from one place to another, so at the very least some reform is needed.
I also hope the Government will think again about extending the proposals—certainly in areas such as mine, which are already badly affected—to allow demolition and replacement without planning permission. Instead of going in the direction of amelioration, this is going in the wrong direction.
In my amendment, I have tried to accept two points that were legitimately put to me by the Government: first, that a local authority should be able to show that it is conforming with its housing duties and meeting its housing targets; and, secondly, that at some point the Government must have a stopping power if a local authority behaves unreasonably or if it can be shown that a local authority has no reason, in terms of lost employment or threat to the economy, to act. Again, I am not sure whether my formulation is right, but I hope that if my noble friend on the Front Bench—I anticipate that he might give me some hope—cannot accept that this is the way forward today, he will be prepared for there to be further considerations and discussions on this matter. I believe that that is the spirit that I am finding in the Government, but I beg him to understand that, in the spirit of localism, something which may be a boon in other parts of the country is a bane in ours. I hope we will find a way forward to resolve what I believe, in terms of the eviction of businesses, is a social evil.
My Lords, I have added my name to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord True, and, once again, I find myself supporting him strongly on this issue. We went through the Housing and Planning Bill together, usually extremely late at night—I recall being worried about whether I would get away in time to catch my last train. It worried me at the time that Conservative Richmond and Liberal Democrat Sutton, which are almost neighbouring boroughs, were so much in agreement. Now, when I hear that tonight we might be keeping the noble Lord, Lord True, from his budget-making council meeting, I feel that I almost owe it to my Liberal Democrat colleagues in Richmond to speak for at least another three hours on this extremely important amendment. Maybe we will do that.
I strongly support the noble Lord, Lord True, on this issue. I was, for 13 years, leader of a council in an almost neighbouring south London borough—Sutton. As I have said many times in this Chamber, I was a town-centre councillor in that borough for 40 years. I should perhaps add that it is still Liberal Democrat run after more than 30 years, so we are clearly doing something right there. This is a serious issue. It has affected Sutton and many London boroughs, and no doubt other parts of the country but particularly London, where residential property values are much higher and property owners and developers can make much more money from residential development than from office development.
Like the noble Lord, Lord True, in spite of the temptation he offered me, I will not go through all that I have said in previous debates, both on the Housing and Planning Bill and in Committee on this Bill. This matter was discussed in Grand Committee. I know that the noble Lord, Lord True, was unable to be there but I raised the issue there as well. I repeat that, in the time it took us to get an Article 4 direction into the town centre in Sutton—in a little over a year, but I will come back to that in a minute—the town centre lost 28% of its office space in about 18 months. The noble Lord, Lord True, talked about the figures for Richmond. Similarly, the percentage of office space in Sutton that was occupied or partly occupied was 62%. So we are not talking about empty and redundant offices which are past their sell-by date or are in areas where they are no longer needed; we are talking about active employment zones where people have jobs or go to shop or eat in their lunch hours, and which are a very important part of the local community.
I mentioned the Article 4 direction, which eventually we got for the town-centre area. Initially, my council proposed to get an Article 4 direction for the borough as a whole. I see the noble Lord, Lord True, nodding in agreement. Perhaps that was also the case in Richmond—I know that it was in a number of other London boroughs. It was made very clear to us by the Government at the time that that was a non-starter—it would not happen. So in Sutton we attempted to get an Article 4 direction in rather more targeted areas. Again, it was made clear to us that that would not succeed, so we targeted solely the town-centre area, to which I have referred on a number of occasions.
If you introduce Article 4 immediately, you are liable for considerable compensation payments to potential owners. It is simply not a viable option, particularly in a valuable town-centre area, so it needs 12 months’ notice. That was probably a significant contributor to why we lost 28% of our office space in the notice period for the Article 4 direction. As I said in Grand Committee, since Article 4 has applied in the town centre, that process has slowed down considerably for a number of reasons, but what has happened now is that the same developments are happening in a number of the district centres, where Article 4 does not apply and where, frankly, to go through the lengthy and expensive process of introducing Article 4, even if it were likely to be successful, would be time-consuming, expensive and possibly not so effective.
Minister after Minister, including the noble Lord on the Front Bench today, has quoted Article 4 as the answer to this problem. Clearly, attitudes have changed, and perhaps the understanding of the problem is greater than it was. Are the Government any more minded now than they were 12 or 24 months ago to accept Article 4 directions for the whole of a local authority area, as distinct from a very targeted approach? If that were the case, it would be very useful to know that from the Minister and would at least be of some help—and a very refreshing and welcome change.
I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord True, that the proper answer to this issue is to allow local authorities to decide for themselves, knowing and recognising the local situations. Like the noble Lord, Lord True, and as I have said on other occasions, I have no problem with the issue in principle. I understand and entirely accept that in other parts of the country it has proved very successful. However, in our part of south London, and in other parts of London, exactly the opposite has been the effect; it has been disastrous.
I turn now to the reason for which this measure was introduced. The current Minister, Gavin Barwell, a former Croydon councillor—another south London councillor—has said that housing need and the need to meet the Government’s housing targets override any concerns about permitted development rights. As I said before, it is not just about housing numbers. It is about housing need and about actually getting the right sorts of homes—not necessarily houses—in the right places. It is about the homes that are needed in areas where there are jobs for people to work in and where they support the local economy and do not detract from it.
Above all, this should contribute towards affordable homes. I leave aside for the moment what is the definition of an “affordable home” in south London, but south London needs affordable homes, and this process is providing very few, if any, affordable homes at all. Indeed, London Councils gives some figures, stating that:
“Between May 2013 and April 2015 at least 16,000 new dwellings have avoided the full planning process through office-to-residential PDRs. Had these developments been required to seek full planning permission for their conversion, many of them could have been required to contribute to affordable housing provisions”,
and, indeed, to contribute in many other ways to the local infrastructure—all of which is avoided by permitted development rights. It is questionable to what extent these really contribute to housing need in parts of London, as distinct from housing numbers. We should remember that there is an important distinction there sometimes.
A final point, which I raised very late at night during the Housing and Planning Bill, is that I would understand this a bit better if it was felt that the councils concerned were failing to meet their housing targets. Almost a year ago, I quoted the figures from my own council, and no doubt the noble Lord, Lord True, could do the same for his council. For each of the previous 10 years, my council—of which I am no longer a member—has more than met its housing target. Taken over the 10 years as a whole, housing completions in our borough were 130% above target. What is the justification for imposing the permitted development rights when it means losing all other planning gain that comes from such developments and, most importantly, losing the opportunity to get more much-needed affordable housing?
For all those reasons, I am more than happy to support, once again, the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord True. Like him, I do not know whether they are precisely right or necessarily the right answer. For me, the right answer is to trust the local authorities to do what is best for their area. But if we still do not have a Government willing to do that—I accept that the coalition Government were no better; indeed, they were arguably worse—then at least let them allow some leeway in those areas where it is an extremely important and pressing issue. What is happening in London today will happen in other parts of the country very soon, if it has not happened already.
My Lords, I support the amendment and declare my interests in the register as chairman of the Local Government Association and leader of a small rural district council, which, thankfully, is not affected by this issue and I do not think will, at any point soon, be directly affected by this issue.
I apologise to the House because, having tabled a similar amendment for Grand Committee, I was unable to attend to move it because I had an important diary clash and was speaking elsewhere at a conference. I thank my noble friend Lady Cumberlege for moving the amendment, which by all accounts she did much more eloquently than I would have done, so noble Lords had the bonus of having a better speaker delivering it.
I will not say too much because I need my noble friend to get back to make sure his budget is safe. This is a problem in very few areas around the country. It would not take much to shift from the Government’s point to be able to meet at least some of the concerns that are being raised. I do not think that anybody has a problem where redundant office accommodation has been lost that then becomes a benefit and an asset to the community by being turned into residential. But when this policy is driving viable businesses out of their homes, it has probably gone a step too far. Having listened to the debate on the previous amendment, I wonder whether it would help the Minister if we started to refer to these offices as white-collar cathedrals.
My Lords, I will speak very briefly because I want to ensure that the noble Lord, Lord True, can get off quickly to his budget meeting tonight. I certainly support the noble Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Tope, in their amendment and I am sorry that I did not actually sign up to it; that was an omission on my part. I am also very glad to be part of this south London, all-party coming together, certainly on behalf of Labour-controlled Lewisham. We would be very much in support of the amendment in front of us here. The noble Lord has set out a compelling case, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, can respond positively to that. I know that he will certainly try his best and I look forward to his response.
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords who have participated in the debate on this important amendment. I thank in particular my noble friend Lord True, who has been very committed to this issue. He has been a tireless advocate of change in relation to permitted development rights for office to residential and has been extremely generous with his time, both with me and with officials, particularly in sharing with us his experience in Richmond. There is no clearer indication of his commitment to his borough than that he is here this evening prior to going to the meeting on the all-important budget.
I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Tope, for giving his perspective from Sutton. I appreciate that this is largely a London issue. I do not know whether it is a particular issue in the borough of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, but it seems to be more focused on London than elsewhere—perhaps for understandable reasons.
Before turning to the detail of the amendment and what I am proposing, I will say a few words about why the Government see permitted development rights that support the delivery of new housing as an important tool in helping to address the current housing challenges the country faces. That is true of the Government, it is true of the department and it is true of the Minister, my honourable friend Gavin Barwell, although he does not believe that it comes without the need to act in particular instances. I do not think he sees this as a totally monochrome issue.
The Prime Minister has made clear that the chronic shortfall in the delivery of new homes is one of the greatest barriers to progress in Britain today, which I am sure we would all agree about as a basic principle. As we have said as a Government many times over the last few weeks, the housing market in England is not working. Noble Lords have identified that issue, too, and therefore we have announced through the White Paper a series of measures to help the country to plan for, and build, the homes it so desperately needs. This includes plans to diversify the market by bringing in smaller and medium-sized builders, encourage innovation through modern methods of construction and attract investors to develop new homes for rent as well as for sale.
At the heart of the housing White Paper is a clear expectation that every part of the country should have in place an up-to-date local plan that starts from an honest assessment of the need for new homes in the area. The White Paper also proposes to introduce a new housing delivery test, which will hold local authorities to account on the delivery of sufficient homes in their areas to meet local need. While I recognise the concerns that noble Lords have highlighted today, it is clear that permitted development rights in generality for the change of use to residential are delivering new homes. In the year to March 2016, over 13,800 additional new homes across England were delivered under these rights, providing young people and families with a chance of a much-needed new home. Over 12,800 of these homes came from the change of use from offices to residential. Such statistics cannot be lightly ignored. These rights play an important role in the planning system, making effective use of existing buildings as part of our broader brownfield strategy, avoiding the need to build on greenfield land, for example.
However, I recognise that while the national picture is positive in terms of how these permitted development rights contribute to housing delivery, in some places—we have heard specifically about two today—there have been concerns about the local impact. My noble friend Lord True and the noble Lord, Lord Tope, in particular have spoken eloquently about this and the experience of the rights in their areas.
Again, at the national level, the picture is positive. The British Council for Offices reports that the market is responding, particularly in regard to prime office space. In addition, it is also providing cheaper and smaller office space, including through hub, incubator and serviced office models. In addition, Jones Lang LaSalle reports that in the year to December 2016, overall UK office rents fell by 1.3%. However, the Government accept that this is not the picture everywhere, and I assure noble Lords that we are sympathetic to their concerns about the impact of the right in certain areas. Where there are local issues, it is already open to the local planning authorities, as has been said, to bring forward an Article 4 direction to protect the amenity or well-being of the area. We know that local planning authorities are already doing so, with 33 directions having been made to restrict office to residential permitted development rights in specific areas, including in the London boroughs of Richmond and Sutton, as, in all fairness, we have heard. Although rarely used, the Secretary of State retains powers to intervene in directions—for example, to modify a direction where it is too widely applied.
Having listened carefully to the concerns of my noble friend Lord True and the noble Lord, Lord Tope, and to the points made briefly by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, during this and previous debates, I am interested in the approach suggested in this amendment that areas that are delivering the homes that their communities need should have greater flexibility to remove permitted development rights. Building on the existing Article 4 process, I am keen to work with my noble friend Lord True and the noble Lord, Lord Tope, to explore an approach that would provide more certainty that where an Article 4 direction removing the permitted development right for the change of use from office to residential is necessary to protect amenity and well-being, the Secretary of State will not intervene where an area is meeting its housing need, tied to housing targets. As now, a direction will still need to be supported by robust evidence of the impact on amenity and well-being, including from the loss of office space. In particular, I am interested in exploring how we can build on the proposals in our recent housing White Paper for a new housing delivery test. I am keen to discuss this proposition further with my noble friend Lord True and the noble Lord, Lord Tope, and to return to this matter at Third Reading. This approach would reflect the intent of my noble friend’s amendment in that it provides local flexibility for those areas that are meeting their housing requirements to have greater say over where the right would apply, as long as they can demonstrate that removal of the right is necessary, without adding new procedures or complexity to the statute.
I have also heard concerns raised, and discussed them with my noble friend Lord True, about the importance of ensuring that local authorities are adequately resourced to consider planning applications in areas where an Article 4 direction is in place. If noble Lords agree, I would like to return once again to this matter at Third Reading. In the light of assurances on those two important issues, which I know have been raised by noble Lords, I ask my noble friend Lord True and the noble Lord, Lord Tope, not to press this amendment to a vote at this stage.
That was a very gracious response. Obviously, I want to study carefully what my noble friend has said in Hansard, but it would be churlish not to accept his offer to look into ways of resolving the issue. I am extremely grateful to have that for the first time. This reflects what I described in my opening remarks today as this very constructive attitude from the Front Bench this time round. I could not be more grateful for that.
I sincerely thank the noble Lord, Lord Tope. It seems quite a long time ago but he was my noble friend when we started along this road in 2013. He has been staunch on the subject because, like me, he has seen it in real life. Good policy has to reflect real life and be flexible enough to accommodate the wrinkles of life. We are not machines. I am grateful to him for his strong speech this evening. I agreed with every word he said. I am obviously also extremely grateful for the brief words from the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the chairman of the Local Government Association. I should have made reference to the amendment tabled in Grand Committee and I endorse what my noble friend Lord Porter said about my noble friend Lady Cumberlege who has, in a sense, been the conscience of the Committee and the House in the progress of this important legislation. Even though she did not speak on this occasion, I rather felt that the spirit was moving within her. I am extremely grateful. I hope that between now and Third Reading, we can find a way forward. On the basis of what my noble friend said, I am hopeful that that will be the case. I recognise the needs of the Government and of the country as much as anyone else.
With that, I guess I ought to be away to the council meeting. I hope that the House will not be offended if I go off to attend a meeting. The budget is not presented by the leader in my local authority but by my deputy, who is in his mid-80s and about to marry again in July. He is well able to see off a Liberal Democrat and Labour challenge should there be one. I will not break up the sense of unity that we have had around the House. I am grateful for the support from all sides and to the Front Bench, and specifically for my noble friend Lord Bourne’s role in all of this. I look forward to positive talks between now and Third Reading. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 38B withdrawn.
Amendments 39 and 40 not moved.
Clause 16: Procedure for authorising temporary possession etc
41: Clause 16, page 16, line 30, leave out subsection (2) and insert—
“(2) The temporary possession of the land must be authorised by the type of instrument (the “authorising instrument”) that would be required if the acquiring authority proposed to acquire that land compulsorily for the purposes for which it proposes to take temporary possession of that land.”
My Lords, the co-pilot is back in charge and I am hoping for a smoother flight than the one I had on Thursday, when I encountered some turbulence as we flew over Clause 13. I listened with some interest to the debate we just had as a former councillor of the south London Borough of Lambeth; that was a very long time ago. We now move on to Part 2 of the Bill and amendments to the compulsory purchase provisions. Noble Lords will have noted that there are a large number of government amendments. These are mainly to ensure that the temporary possession provisions in the Bill work as intended and are fair to all, but they also respond positively to issues raised by noble Lords in Committee.
Amendments 41 to 43 amend Clause 16, which sets out the procedure for authorising temporary possession. In Grand Committee the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, spoke eloquently to the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, and herself about the need to ensure that land held inalienably by the National Trust is appropriately protected in the context of the new temporary possession power. As I indicated we would, the Government have considered the matter further, and I am happy to tell both noble Baronesses that we are now in agreement that the special interest of inalienable National Trust land, and its irreplaceable nature, requires particular protection.
Amendment 42 is the principal amendment in this group. It makes provision for any inalienable National Trust land which is required temporarily to be subject to the same additional protection as National Trust land which is to be acquired by compulsion. This means that where the National Trust sustains an objection to the taking of temporary possession of any of its inalienable land, the authorising instrument will be subject to special parliamentary procedure, in the same way as it would if the land was being acquired by compulsion.
The other amendments are technical and consequential. Amendment 41 clarifies that temporary possession must be authorised by the same type of instrument as would have been used if the land in question had been compulsorily acquired for the same purposes for which temporary possession is needed. Amendment 42 works by an exception to Clause 16(3)(c), which provides that where an authorising instrument authorises temporary possession then, for the purposes of the procedures for authorising and challenging it, temporary possession is treated in the same way as compulsory acquisition. Amendment 42 is therefore drafted so that it disapplies special parliamentary procedure for special kinds of land except for National Trust land held inalienably. As confirmed in the Government’s policy paper published in December 2016, special kinds of land other than National Trust land will be subject to the serious detriment test in the temporary possession regulations made under Clause 26. Amendment 43 clarifies Clause 16(3)(c) by removing a potential ambiguity allowing the clause to be interpreted in two different ways.
I now move to Clause 17 and Amendment 45. In Grand Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, raised the issue of whether there would be a time limit on acquiring authorities exercising their power of temporary possession after it had been authorised. This is an important matter and I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising it. Amendment 45 addresses the issue by providing that acquiring authorities must serve a notice of intended entry within three years from the date on which the compulsory purchase order authorising temporary possession becomes operative. Where temporary possession is authorised by a different type of authorising instrument—for example, a development consent order—the time limit for serving the notice of entry is within five years of it becoming operative. These limits are in line with those where land is being acquired by compulsion.
Amendments 47, 50, 50A, 50B, 50C, 51, 52 and 61A deal with the power to override easements and other third-party rights over land taken for temporary possession. Where land is taken by compulsion, acquiring authorities have this power, which is necessary to ensure that there are no impediments to the scheme going forward. These third-party interests are typically rights to allow underground services such as water, gas, electricity and telecommunication belonging to one property to pass beneath the land of neighbouring properties; there are also rights of light and of way and covenants restricting development to certain uses or density. Land needed for a temporary period may also be subject to easements or restrictive covenants, so to avoid problems such as those with insurance or litigation it is necessary for acquiring authorities to have the power to override these rights when they take temporary possession of land. That is what these amendments do. The provisions are modelled on the corresponding provisions for schemes where land is acquired by compulsion as set out in Sections 203 and 205 of the Housing and Planning Act 2016. Amendment 51 is the principal amendment, as it contains the power to override a relevant right or interest. Amendment 47 sets out the compensation provisions.
I come now to the four starred amendments. Noble Lords will have observed that the Government have withdrawn Amendments 44, 46 and 61 from the Marshalled List, and these four amendments are consequential on the withdrawal of Amendment 44. For the Government to withdraw three amendments and table four consequential amendments the day before Report is unusual, and I apologise to the House for that.
Amendment 44 would have required the acquiring authority to serve a notice of intended entry on those who own land subject to easements and other third-party interests, as well as those who have an interest in or a right to occupy the land. Amendments 50A and 61A replace Amendments 46 and 61. Amendment 50B is required to amend the advance payment provision in Clause 21 because, as currently worded and in the absence of Amendment 44, third-party right owners would not be able to claim an advance payment of compensation. This would clearly be unfair to them and should be corrected. Amendment 50C is consequential on Amendment 50B. I hope I have been able to reassure the House that these late amendments are minor in scope and will ensure that the temporary possession process mirrors the compulsory purchase process on this small but important point.
Amendment 52 provides protection for statutory undertakers and National Trust land and this corresponds to the provisions in Section 203 of the Housing and Planning Act 2016. Amendment 50 is consequential.
Amendments 48 and 49 relate to the compensation provisions for temporary possession. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, tabled an amendment in Grand Committee seeking to remove subsections (3) to (6) of Clause 20. In responding to that amendment I indicated that the Government would discuss the issue further with the Compulsory Purchase Association. Those discussions have happened and I am pleased to say we have reached an agreed position. Amendments 48 and 49 delete subsections (3) and (4) of Clause 20, which require the value of the leasehold interest in the land for the period of temporary possession to be taken into account in calculating the amount of compensation due to a claimant. Expert practitioners have advised that taking into account this interest for this period may not be relevant in all cases. Saying it should be taken into account is, therefore, likely to lead to confusion and may cause unnecessary disputes about how the leasehold value is to be assessed.
The key point in this is that a claimant will be compensated for any loss or injury they sustain as a result of the temporary possession, as set out in Clause 20(2). We consider that the Upper Tribunal can assess loss or injury perfectly well by applying the established common-law principle that losses must be reasonably incurred and subject to the principles of causation, remoteness and mitigation, without being required to take into account something that may be irrelevant in a given case. We consider subsections (5) and (6) of Clause 20 to provide useful clarification to the compensation provisions concerning disturbance compensation and have therefore retained those subsections.
Finally, on temporary possession, we have a number of amendments which deal with the recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee concerning the regulation-making power in Clause 26. As I said in Grand Committee, we take the committee’s recommendations very seriously. We have, therefore, given further careful consideration to these matters and discussed them again with key stakeholders. I am pleased to inform the House that we agree completely with the committee’s recommendations in respect to the reinstatement of land subject to temporary possession. Amendment 53, therefore, places an obligation on the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers to make regulations providing for the reinstatement of temporarily possessed land and for the resolution of disputes about reinstatement by an independent person.
Amendment 57 removes the previous reinstatement provision in Clause 26(2)(i), which is no longer required as a result of Amendment 53. Amendments 54 to 56 respond to the committee’s recommendation on Clause 26(2)(a). This subsection states that the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers may make regulations to exclude or modify the temporary possession provisions in the Bill in particular cases or types of cases. The Delegated Powers Committee thought that this subsection was too wide and should be redrafted to reflect the narrow policy intention set out in the Government’s policy paper. We highlighted in the policy paper that development consent orders under the Planning Act 2008, and orders under the Transport and Works Act 1992 and Harbours Act 1964, can modify or exclude a statutory provision which relates to any matter for which provision has been made in the order, but that there is currently no corresponding power under the Pipe-lines Act 1962 or the Gas Act 1965.
Having now explored this issue further with stakeholders, we have discovered that the Pipe-lines Act 1962 and the Gas Act 1965 are not the only examples of legislation which do not contain the corresponding power to modify or exclude statutory provisions relating to matters for which provision has been made in the order or authorisation. We understand the committee’s concern that the power to exclude provisions, as drafted, could be used more widely. Amendments 54 and 55 therefore remove the general power to exclude or modify in Clause 26(2)(a) and limit the power to exclude provisions to the Pipe-lines Act 1962, Gas Act 1965, Gas Act 1986 and the Electricity Act 1989. However, we consider that there is a need to retain a general power to make limited modifications that appear necessary or expedient for giving full effect to the temporary possession provisions. For example, in some cases it may be appropriate to modify the time limit within which notice of intended entry must be served. Amendment 56 amends Clause 26(2)(b) to allow for this. Amendments 70 and 73 are consequential on Amendments 53 and 54.
Another recommendation from the Delegated Powers Committee was that Clause 26 should be amended to include a requirement that interested parties should be consulted before any temporary possession regulations are made. It has always been our intention to consult on the detail of the regulations before they were made. Amendment 58 demonstrates that the Government are therefore fully content to agree to the committee’s recommendation to include in the Bill a requirement that interested parties should be consulted before any temporary possession regulations are made.
Moving away now from temporary possession, I turn to Clause 29 and Amendment 62. New Section 6A of the Land Compensation Act 1961, in Clause 29, will set the rules by which the no-scheme world is defined. This is the world in which compensation for compulsory purchase falls to be assessed, and this amendment deals with no-scheme Rule 4. In Grand Committee the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, argued that Rule 4 is unnecessary and should be omitted. In responding, I said that we would discuss the matter further with the Compulsory Purchase Association. These discussions have now taken place and I am pleased to inform the House that the Government and the Compulsory Purchase Association agree that Rule 4 serves a useful function and should be retained.
Rule 4 was thought to duplicate no-scheme Rule 3 but, in disregarding other schemes that could be brought forward only by,
“the exercise of a statutory function or … compulsory purchase powers”,
Rule 4 performs a different function to Rule 3. Rule 4 comes into play when the same land is subject to two statutory schemes: an example would be those of the Olympic Park and Crossrail. Where land would be taken for the Olympic Park, that scheme is assumed to be cancelled, applying Rule 1. It is then assumed that there would be no other scheme to meet the same need, applying Rule 3. Applying Rule 4 assumes that no other public scheme would come forward; this allows the blighting effect of Crossrail to be disregarded as well, thus creating a fair no-scheme world for claimants.
I should mention here that a question has been raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Walker of Gestingthorpe, who is in Hong Kong and so unable to be in his place, about a possible tension between no-scheme Rule 4 and Section 14 of the Land Compensation Act. Having carefully considered his question and discussed this with expert practitioners, we are satisfied that there is no tension between Rule 4 and Section 14. I shall therefore write in detail to him and place a copy of the letter in the Library.
Amendment 62 adopts a conceptually different approach for what the valuer must do in applying Rule 4, to be consistent with the conceptual approach adopted for no-scheme Rules 1 to 3. It changes it from a negative into a positive action—from,
“no consideration of whether other projects would have been carried out”,
to an active assumption that,
“it is to be assumed that no”,
other projects would have been carried out. Amendment 62 therefore brings no-scheme Rule 4 into line with the conceptual approach used for no-scheme Rules 1 to 3, which use the same formulation.
I am sure that the House will be pleased to know that we are now nearing the end. Perhaps I may tell noble Lords that this speech is a lot shorter than it was originally. Amendment 63 is the Government’s final amendment to Part 2. It is a minor and technical amendment to correct an omission in Clause 33, which inserts new Sections 403A and 403B into the Greater London Authority Act 1999. It ensures that new Section 403B is treated in the same way as new Section 403A for the purposes of paragraph 20 of Schedule 11 to that Act. I beg to move government Amendment 41.
My Lords, this speech will be shorter than that given by the noble Lord, Lord Young, and this speaker is, of course, somewhat shorter than him. I congratulate him on incorporating the two amendments which I had intended to move, Amendments 59 and 60, although I note that there was no attribution in his speaking on the matters which substantially cover them. Nevertheless, I am grateful to him for his clear exposition of all these amendments, for the adoption of the two that I would have spoken to and for clearly listening to the comments, criticisms and suggestions from around the House. I am happy to endorse those matters and I will not move the amendments in my name.
My Lords, I thank the Minister for all that he said about compulsory purchase, both temporary and non-temporary. I think that his comments demonstrate the role of scrutiny and the value of this Chamber. I had a great deal to say on compulsory purchase in Committee but now I have virtually nothing at all to say because the matter has been resolved. It demonstrates the importance of talking with expert practitioners. Perhaps I should also repeat what I said in Committee about the large number of government amendments regarding compulsory purchase although the Bill had come to us from the House of Commons as a finished Bill. In this respect at least—but also on the planning side, as we know—it did not merit the status of a finished Bill. However, I am grateful to the Minister and his colleagues in the department for all the work that they have done. As far as I am concerned, we now have a Bill—assuming that all the amendments are adopted—that will make the statutory position a great deal clearer. I shall say something further when we come on to the question of Henry VIII powers, because some powers will still apply to this part of the Bill. For the moment, however, I have nothing further to add.
My Lords, I was unfortunately unable to attend the Committee stage on the Bill because it clashed with other meetings. However, I want to use government Amendment 62 to raise an issue that, from what I have heard, was not dealt with in Committee.
I want to go back to the debate that took place on 17 March 2016, when the noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, commented on this whole question of the no-scheme world. Perhaps I may read out what he said and then ask some questions about how we should interpret it. He said that the compensation code—which, as I understand it, is dealt with under Amendment 62—
“is underpinned by the principle of equivalence. This means that the owner should be paid neither less nor more than his loss. The code provides that land shall be purchased at its open market value, disregarding the effect of the scheme underlying the compulsory purchase”.
I think that that is what the noble Lord, Lord Young, was referring to, and it is a question of rules. The noble Viscount continued:
“The land is valued in a construct called the ‘no-scheme world’, whereby any increase or decrease in value which is due to the scheme is disregarded. Land will always have its existing use value but market value also takes into account the effect of any planning permissions that have already been granted, and also the prospect of future planning permissions”.
He goes on to talk about “hope value”, and then says:
“In some situations there will be no hope value, because the individual claimant could not have obtained planning permission for some more valuable use. For example, the land might be in an isolated rural location where permission for development would have been unlikely to be granted”.—[Official Report, 17/3/16; col. 2040-41.]
In other words, as I understand that, there is provision within the law whereby we can acquire land at a very low price, depending on what the ultimate use of the land will be.
What I cannot quite get my head around is why, if that is the case, we cannot buy land for housing on that basis. Why cannot we buy land for housing on the same basis as we buy land for airports, motorways, bypasses, railways, reservoirs and other utility uses, and then build housing developments on that land? It could be acquired at a very low price, probably something like £8,000 or £10,000 a plot on which to build, as against often spending £50,000, £100,000 or £200,000 for a plot of land.
On this sort of housing use, Section 226 of the land compensation Act 1965, as amended by Section 99 of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004, sets out conditions for applying for a compulsory purchase. It must aim for,
“the promotion or improvement of the economic well-being of their area”—
“the promotion or improvement of the social well-being of their area”.
Therefore it is defined in the law that where there is an acquisition for improvements in social well-being, a CPO can be used. So why cannot we use that procedure for acquiring land at a low price to build the hundreds of thousands, if not potentially millions, of houses that are going to be needed here in the United Kingdom?
I go back again to the argument that I have used repeatedly in the House. I do not want to bore noble Lords, so I will put it simply: there is a difference in the cost of land in United Kingdom. You can buy land around the London area—agricultural land—at £20,000 to £25,000 an acre which, at a stroke of a planner’s pen, is worth £4 million or £5 million per hectare. If that is the case, it is the community that has increased the value of that land, not the landowner. Therefore, it is the community that should see the benefit of that land. If the community is to see the benefit of that land, it potentially means that we could create cheaper housing for thousands, or perhaps even millions, of people. We somehow do not do that, because we are always protecting the land value, which is only to the benefit of the people who own the land. I cannot understand why, if we have provisions in the law like this, which allow for the acquisition of land, we do not use them. We have a judgment from Lord Denning where he says that,
“Parliament only grants it, or should only grant it, when it is necessary in the public interest”.
It is in the public interest to acquire cheap land to provide housing for people in the United Kingdom. I have used this amendment as a peg, and I ask Ministers once again: why cannot we proceed on the basis that I keep advocating in this Chamber?
My Lords, I sincerely thank the Minister for the consideration that he and the ministerial team have given to the comments and concerns that I raised in Committee. I offer those thanks on behalf of myself and the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, who is no longer able to be in her place. In particular, I welcome Amendments 42 and 55, which specifically address the concerns that we had about the impact of the temporary possession proposals on the special land that the National Trust holds for the good of the nation. I am delighted with the way that the Minister has retained the status quo for the National Trust’s inalienable land. I thank him most sincerely.
I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, particularly to those who welcomed the amendments tabled by the Government to meet concerns expressed earlier on.
If I may respond briefly to the very important issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, no one is more anxious than I am to see more houses being built. In view of his interest, he might like to come along on Thursday, when we have a debate on the White Paper, which will be a broader debate about housing. I will make three quick points about the question that he raised. First, Clause 29, the no-scheme principle, makes no fundamental changes to the principle of compensation. It seeks to clarify where we are by looking at past cases and setting out some clear rules, Rules 1 to 5, so that we can, in future, fairly assess the compensation that people are entitled to if they are affected by a CPO.
The second point, which really arises from that, is that we have always paid the market value. For as long as I have been involved in this type of legislation, when somebody’s land or property has been acquired, we have always paid the market value. That is the right thing to do in a fair society; otherwise, one is verging towards confiscation. If you are going to take away something at less than its value from an individual who does not want to part with it, that is approaching what could be called confiscation.
The compensation is based on the existing use value. Sometimes that might have a hope value, and in some of the circumstances he has outlined, it might not be zoned for housing, but the market value might be slightly above agricultural value because of so-called hope value. That gets priced in. The important point is that we pay market value. What the noble Lord wants to do is to acquire it at below market value to facilitate the building of more houses. I understand that, but that is not the principle on which people have been compensated for the last 40 or 50 years; they have always had the market value.
Thirdly, the no-scheme principle says that if the value of your property has suddenly gone up because of something that the public sector is building—a station or whatever—then that is disregarded for the purpose of assessing its value. That is what we do: that is what the no-scheme principle implies, so you do not get the benefit of the public investment that has accelerated the value of your land. I hope that I have satisfied the noble Lord. Although he is smiling, I suspect that I might not have. On the rather slender hook of Amendment 62, he has hung a very substantial debate, perhaps more appropriate to the Second Reading of this Bill many months ago. Of course, however, I would be happy to have further discussions with him if he has any continuing concerns about how land is acquired compulsorily.
Amendment 41 agreed.
Amendments 42 and 43 agreed.
Amendment 44 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.
Clause 17: Notice requirements
Amendment 45 agreed.
Amendment 46 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.
Clause 20: Compensation
Amendment 47 to 50A agreed.
Clause 21: Advance payments
Amendments 50B and 50C
50B: Clause 21, page 19, line 38, leave out “to the claimant” and insert “in relation to the land in respect of which the claimant is or will be entitled to compensation”
50C: Clause 21, page 19, line 40, leave out “a notice of intended entry to the claimant” and insert “such a notice”
Amendments 50B and 50C agreed.
Clause 24: Powers of acquiring authority in relation to land
Amendments 51 and 52
51: Clause 24, page 22, line 27, at end insert—
“( ) The acquiring authority may use land as described in subsection (1) even if this involves—(a) interfering with a relevant right or interest, or(b) breaching a restriction as to the user of land arising by virtue of a contract.”
52: Clause 24, page 22, line 30, at end insert—
“(4) Nothing in this section authorises an interference with—(a) a right of way on, under or over land that is a protected right, or(b) a right of laying down, erecting, continuing or maintaining apparatus on, under or over land if it is a protected right.(5) Nothing in this section authorises—(a) an interference with a relevant right or interest annexed to land belonging to the National Trust which is held by the National Trust inalienably, or(b) a breach of a restriction as to the user of land which does not belong to the National Trust—(i) arising by virtue of a contract to which the National Trust is a party, or(ii) benefiting land which does belong to the National Trust.(6) For the purposes of subsection (5)—(a) “the National Trust” means the National Trust for Places of Historic Interest or Natural Beauty incorporated by the National Trust Act 1907, and(b) land is held by the National Trust “inalienably” if it is inalienable under section 21 of the National Trust Act 1907 or section 8 of the National Trust Act 1939.(7) In this section—“protected right” means—(a) a right vested in, or belonging to, a statutory undertaker for the purpose of carrying on its statutory undertaking, or(b) a right conferred by, or in accordance with, the electronic communications code on the operator of an electronic communications code network (and expressions used in this paragraph have the meaning given by paragraph 1(1) of Schedule 17 to the Communications Act 2003);“statutory undertaker” means a person who is, or who is deemed to be, a statutory undertaker for the purposes of any provision of Part 11 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990;“statutory undertaking” is to be read in accordance with section 262 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 (meaning of “statutory undertakers”).”
Amendments 51 and 52 agreed.
Clause 26: Supplementary provisions
Amendments 53 to 58
53: Clause 26, page 23, line 16, at end insert—
“(A1) The appropriate national authority must by regulations make provision about— (a) the reinstatement of land subject to a period of temporary possession, and(b) the resolution by an independent person of disputes about reinstatement.”
54: Clause 26, page 23, line 16, at end insert—
“(A2) The Secretary of State may by regulations exclude the application of any provision of this Chapter in relation to a person who is an acquiring authority as a result of an authorisation by virtue of—(a) section 11, 12 or 12A of the Pipe-lines Act 1962 (compulsory purchase of land or rights over land in connection with pipe-lines),(b) section 12 or 13 of the Gas Act 1965 (compulsory purchase of rights in relation to storage of gas etc),(c) paragraph 1 of Schedule 3 to the Gas Act 1986 (compulsory purchase of land by gas transporter), or(d) paragraph 1 of Schedule 3 to the Electricity Act 1989 (compulsory purchase of land by licence holder).”
55: Clause 26, page 23, line 25, leave out paragraph (a)
56: Clause 26, page 23, line 29, at end insert “including by modifying that provision so that it is effective in relation to those cases or types of case,”
57: Clause 26, page 23, line 45, leave out paragraph (i)
58: Clause 26, page 24, line 3, at end insert—
“( ) Before making regulations under this section the Secretary of State or the Welsh Ministers, as the case may be, must carry out a public consultation.”
Amendments 53 to 58 agreed.
Amendments 59 and 60 not moved.
Amendment 61 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.
Clause 27: Interpretation
61A: Clause 27, page 24, line 16, at end insert—
““relevant right or interest” has the meaning given by section 20(11).”
Amendment 61A agreed.
Clause 29: No-scheme principle
62: Clause 29, page 25, line 17, leave out “there is to be no consideration of whether” and insert “it is to be assumed that no”
Amendment 62 agreed.
Clause 33: GLA and TfL: joint acquisition of land
63: Clause 33, page 32, line 45, after “403A” insert “, 403B”
Amendment 63 agreed.
64: After Clause 38, insert the following new Clause—
“CHAPTER 3CONSEQUENTIAL PROVISIONConsequential provision
(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision in consequence of any provision of this Part.(2) Regulations under subsection (1) may amend, repeal or revoke any enactment.(3) In subsection (2)“enactment” includes—(a) an enactment contained in subordinate legislation within the meaning of the Interpretation Act 1978, and(b) an enactment contained in, or in an instrument made under, a Measure or Act of the National Assembly for Wales.”
My Lords, I will speak collectively to government Amendments 64, 72, 76, and 77. I listened carefully to the concerns raised during Grand Committee and am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge. He is not in his place but was most generous with his time in meeting with me between Committee and Report to discuss the matter further. I know that other noble Lords have focused on this area: the noble Lords, Lord Pannick, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham, and my noble friend Lady Cumberlege have all raised concerns on this.
These government amendments narrow the scope of the consequential power in Clause 40 to apply it to only Part 2 of the Bill—the part related to compulsory purchase and not the part related strictly to neighbourhood plans. We expect it to be most needed in relation to compulsory purchase and therefore have responded to concerns raised in Grand Committee.
The Government have also ensured that the new consequential power which applies to Part 2 of the Bill allows provision “in consequence of this Bill”, rather than provision which the Secretary of State,
“considers appropriate, to be made in consequence of this Bill”.
This change of words may appeal to those who thought that the original language was too subjective.
I do not wish to pre-empt any points that noble Lords may wish to make on this but I do want to address the concerns raised. We have responded to those concerns and significantly narrowed the scope of this provision in the Bill. I beg to move.
My Lords, I declare an interest. As noble Lords are aware, I have a legal case pending. I took advice from the Clerk of the Parliaments and was told that the sub judice rule does not apply in my case. My other interests are in the Lords register.
I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Bourne for adding his name to my Amendment 68. As he explained, it will delete the Henry VIII clause pertinent to the compulsory purchase and compensation part of the Bill and will narrow the scope of this clause. We had a robust debate in Committee and I was extremely grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, for speaking to the amendment there with such lucidity, force and wisdom. Again, he put his name to my amendment here but sends his apologies to the House because he has a long-standing engagement.
I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is here this evening and will support the amendment, as will the redoubtable noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. Best of all, my noble friend Lord Bourne, the Minister, put his name to the amendment as well. I am sure that, having reached this agreement, he put in a huge amount of time and energy in negotiating to achieve what we have achieved this evening.
I am very much aware that we are nearing the end of Report. If noble Lords will forgive me, I will say a few words about the use of Henry VIII clauses that come to this House and to the other place. They can be a recipe for sloppy drafting. Sometimes it is easier to introduce a Henry VIII clause than to think through an issue with great clarity before it is brought to the House. We have had a procession of planning Bills and a lack of coherent policies.
Sometimes, if noble Lords will forgive me, I have a vision of Sir Humphrey Appleby in the Department for Communities and Local Government. “Of course, Minister, the Bill is not perfect. In an age of rapid change, we cannot cover every eventuality. But with a Henry VIII clause we can just tweak a few of the sections that aren’t quite right in line with what is required, without going to the trouble of parliamentary scrutiny”. “But Humphrey, that is not democratic”. “That is up to you, Minister. But do you really want to go through the whole process again with that intolerable Baroness Cumberlege and her interminable questioning of clauses and sections? You look tired, Minister. You need to lead a balanced life”. “True, Humphrey. Democracy has its limitations”.
Fortunately, my noble friend is not Jim Hacker. He has unquestioned integrity and has been selfless in the pursuit of getting what is right for this legislation, for planning as a whole and for the country. The planning laws are very many and they are pretty impregnable. We have one amending another—inserting, deleting, referring back and almost certain to confuse. Again, I can hear Sir Humphrey: “I know, Minister, but making it clear is not the purpose of the Act. With a Henry VIII clause, if we can get that through Parliament, we could change it to confuse planning authorities. That way, you can do as you want and maintain a work/life balance”. Fortunately, we do not have any Sir Humphrey Applebys in the Department for Communities and Local Government.
In conclusion, I hope that every Member of this House will be diligent, search the furthest corners of each Bill for Henry VIII clauses, challenge them and instigate debates to have them removed—or partially removed. In this case, it is a partial removal. I understand the reasons for that and I think that they are legitimate. After all, we have just been through 24 different amendments to the Bill to ensure that the compensation and compulsory purchase remit for the future is right. But, in the longer term, we need some clearer thinking and to concentrate on strategy rather than minutiae. We need time to consolidate legislation, to make it more comprehensible to those of us—I include myself—who have to wrestle with hundreds of interconnecting clauses in many disconnected Acts of Parliament.
I do not want to be ungracious. I thank my noble friend Lord Bourne for doing what is unquestionably right and for his enormous diligence, patience, courtesy, integrity and graciousness—a term used earlier in the debate—throughout this and earlier stages of the Bill. I am delighted that he debated this with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and saw fit to add his name to this amendment, which deletes Clause 40.
My Lords, I am pleased that the Minister has wisely responded to the concerns expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and others. I congratulate her on her efforts and successful attempts to draw attention to the mischief of Clause 40. In its original form, it was a manifestly unacceptable provision —indeed, a quite extraordinary clause. I remind your Lordships that it said that by regulations the Minister may “make such provision” as the Minister,
“considers appropriate in consequence of any provision of this Act”,
and that the provision that the Minister may make included amending, repealing or revoking any enactment —any primary or secondary legislation.
Your Lordships’ Constitution Committee, of which I am a member, has regularly drawn attention to the constitutional impropriety of such broad Henry VIII clauses. Clause 40 should never have been tabled in that form. I added my name to Amendment 68 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, which would leave out that clause, because of my concern at the constitutional impropriety. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, added his name for the same reason, as he explained in Grand Committee.
The wording in the amendment is much more acceptable. As the Minister indicated, it is confined to consequential regulations, not regulations that are, in the view of the Minister, appropriate in consequence of the Act. I have no doubt that a court would hold Ministers to that objective test. The new wording is also confined, as he said, to provisions consequential on this part of the Bill.
I am therefore grateful to the Minister for tempering the wish of the Executive to take broad powers to amend primary legislation. I hope he will communicate to his ministerial colleagues that noble Lords are focused on this subject and that if Ministers again bring forward broad Henry VIII clauses such as Clause 40, we will put down amendments and, if necessary, divide the House.
My Lords, I add my thanks to the Minister for the proposed changes. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has said what I was going to say and I will not repeat it. The change of wording in the amendment is significant because, as he indicated, it is no longer the case that the Secretary of State has the power to consider something “appropriate”. Rather, he can make provision in consequence of any provision in this part of the Bill. This is much better. Henry VIII powers should never have been applied to the planning chapters of the Bill.
I said earlier that compulsory purchase is indeed complicated and I accept that consequential provision may be needed, which can be taken quickly if there is found to be a further flaw in the legislation that Parliament passes. That said, I seek the Minister’s confirmation that the wording now being used in relation to compulsory purchase is the standard wording used in other Bills. It has been said that there is a power in recent planning Acts for Ministers to make consequential provision. We need to be clear about that and that we are not doing something in the amendment that has not been in any other Bill or Act. I understand that to be the position but would be keen to hear the Minister confirm that there is nothing unusual in the wording of the amendment.
My Lords, I join other noble Lords in thanking the Minister and, indeed, in congratulating him on these substantive changes, which are ultimately, I suppose, a concession to the powerful arguments advanced, in particular by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and other Members across the House.
It would have been good to see a similar approach from Ministers when we discussed the Housing and Planning Bill at great length last year. It is not a personal criticism of them; the Minister at that time, the noble Baroness, was not allowed to move in the direction in which Ministers on this Bill have been able to move, which I very much welcome.
For clarification, may I assume that my Amendments 71 and 75 are effectively covered by the welcome amendments that the Government have brought forward? That is right, and that is a repetition in the case of the previous amendments. However, I am not entirely clear about Amendment 67 in my name, which requires the Secretary of State to consult the Welsh Ministers before making regulations under Section 38. That proposal was dismissed on the previous occasion, although it had been a matter of strong concern to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, to which the Government’s official response was extremely negative. I do not know whether the Minister can offer any assurance that, whether or not is contained in the amendment, the Government will consult Welsh Ministers. There was rather a general statement that this happens automatically. The purpose of including it in the Bill was to make sure that more than just custom and practice would apply in this case. It would therefore be helpful if the Minister indicated whether the government amendments cover my amendment or, in the event that they do not, whether he will again confirm explicitly that there will be consultation with Welsh Ministers before making regulations under Section 38. It would be preferable to include that in the Bill but, at the very least, a ministerial assurance would carry some weight. In those circumstances, if that were the position, I would withdraw my amendment.
My Lords, perhaps I may respond, particularly to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, in relation to Wales. I will pick them up at the end of this part of the review of other noble Lords’ amendments. I once again thank those who have participated in the debate, including my noble friend Lady Cumberlege, who set out a horrifying “Yes Minister” position. I am sure that one or two officials in our department will be listening but it is not regarded there as a training manual—although it possibly is the case in other departments. However, I give fair warning to anybody who thinks it is that it is not. The point was well made.
I am grateful for the welcome given by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, to the position exhibited in the government amendments, as well as by the noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord Shipley. It was certainly the subject of my fruitful discussion with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, who was instrumental in putting a strong case.
I confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, that the wording is the usual wording. I hope he is reassured by that.
I think we have responded. As a lawyer I understand the concerns, so I was very keen that we responded positively. We have sought to restrict the power to the area where we will need it for reasons that I am pleased noble Lords appreciate. We have also slightly altered—perhaps significantly altered in a few words—some of the wording.
The view of experts is that the position as now set out in the legislation will be construed very strictly against those seeking to rely on it—that is, potentially, the Government. That is enforced by Craies on Legislation: A Practitioner’s Guide to the Nature, Process, Effect and Interpretation of Legislation. It provides that consequential provision,
“will be construed strictly against the legislature”.
This passage goes on to state that provision made in reliance on the power,
“will be strictly tested to determine whether it can fairly be presented as a mere consequence (whether absolutely necessary or clearly desirable) of the principal provisions”.
In the event that the power is used to amend or repeal a provision of an Act of Parliament, or a Measure or Act of the National Assembly for Wales—so, in answer to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, in relation to this general provision, it will apply to measures in relation to Wales as well, although I will deal with his specific point shortly—it will need to be approved by each House of Parliament before it can be made by affirmative resolution.
It may assist noble Lords if I quickly provide an example of how the power is most likely to be used. We need to make sure that the new powers to take temporary possession of land, for example, can be conferred under all the numerous Acts which enable compulsory purchase powers to be conferred. We hope to do that by the time the Bill is passed, but that may not prove possible. That may entail amendments which may not be considered minor in the strict sense of the word but go beyond merely updating cross-references.
I understand the depth of feeling about this provision and hope that with the assurances made by my amendments, particularly the significant narrowing in the scope of the power, my noble friend and noble Lords will not move their amendment.
Amendment 67 is tabled in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. It seeks to require the Secretary of State to consult Welsh Ministers before making any regulations which amend legislation in consequence of this Bill. There was a perhaps slightly unsatisfactory discussion of this in Committee, for which I share some of the blame. This happened in relation to the then Wales Bill very recently. I was seeking to say—perhaps I did not do so elegantly, and I certainly did not seem to get the message across—that, mutatis mutandis, we would apply it in the same way here. That is, as soon as we know of regulations that we need to make in this direction, we would have an exchange of correspondence with, first, the First Minister in Wales, and, secondly, the Presiding Officer in Wales, so they would be notified at a very early juncture. I will ensure that once we have the exchange of correspondence, which we do not yet have, I will share—subject to Chinese walls of government departments—the exchange we had in relation to the Wales Act, because it will closely follow that. That is the intention, so I hope that noble Lords will accept that that is effectively consultation and that they would be able to object and raise concerns at that stage—although we will, in practice, have notified them at a much earlier stage and discussed it, as we have discussed this provision.
As I said during the passage of the Wales Bill, it is tempting to think that there is always conflict between the National Assembly for Wales and this Parliament. That is not the case, and it has got less so just because of the effluxion of time. Even with different parties in government here and in government there, it is largely a helpful, fruitful discussion. We would engage at an early stage in relation to things that I think would be minor. We would formalise in an exchange of correspondence. I hope that takes care of the noble Lord’s concerns. I understand that he would prefer it in the Bill, but he has that assurance which will appear on the record, and that is the way that we have proceeded in relation to other legislation.
Amendment 64 agreed.
65: After Clause 38, insert the following new Clause—
“Amendment to TfL powers
In Schedule 11 of the Greater London Authority Act 1999 (miscellaneous powers of Transport for London) after paragraph 12 insert—“12A_ Transport for London or any subsidiary of Transport for London may sell, exchange or lease its land for the purpose of providing housing of any description at such price, or for such consideration, or for such rent, as having regard to all the circumstances of the case is the best that can reasonably be obtained, notwithstanding that a higher price, consideration or rent might have been obtained if the land were sold, exchanged or leased for the purpose of providing housing of another description or for a purpose other than the provision of housing and for the purposes of paragraph 29 below Transport for London or any subsidiary of Transport for London shall not be required to act as if it were a company engaged in a commercial enterprise if undertaking any activities at paragraphs 15(2) or (3) below with a view to selling, exchanging or leasing its land under this paragraph.”
My Lords, this is the last amendment on Report. We had a short debate in Grand Committee on 8 February. The amendments I tabled then and have tabled now are to help the discussion taking place between the department, the Government, Transport for London and the Greater London Authority in respect of the powers that those authorities think they need to dispose of land and help build more housing.
I am hoping the Minister will be able to respond to this and update us on where we have got to in discussions so far. I do not believe any agreement has been reached, as yet. I hope we are going to get somewhere and that we will not reach the end of this process with nothing having been agreed. That would be most disappointing. I got a fairly positive response from the Minister in Grand Committee. I will leave it there. I hope the Minister can respond positively and tell us that, although nothing has yet been agreed, the discussions are ongoing. We all hope that we will get some resolution before we reach the end of this process. I beg to move.
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for the bridge-building way in which he moved the amendment. Amendments 65 and 66 seek to make new provision in the Greater London Authority Act 1999 which would amend the powers of Transport for London and the Greater London Authority to dispose of land.
Amendment 65 seeks to give Transport for London the flexibility to dispose of land for housing, even if a higher value use was available, provided the best consideration reasonably obtainable for housing use had been achieved. To achieve this, Amendment 65 would disapply the requirement for TfL to,
“act as if it were a company engaged in a commercial enterprise”.
Amendment 66 would remove the requirement for the GLA to obtain the consent of the Secretary of State to the disposal of land for housing, even if a higher value use was available, provided the best consideration reasonably obtainable for housing use had been achieved.
In Grand Committee, I promised to facilitate a meeting between the Government, the GLA and TfL before Report to discuss how we should respond to the concerns the noble Lord had raised. I confirm that that meeting has taken place.
We have been working with TfL to assess the impact of making the proposed amendment, but unfortunately we remain concerned about the potential impact of Amendment 65 on TfL’s overall receipts targets and consequently on public finances more generally. Given these ongoing concerns, I cannot accept the noble Lord’s amendment, but I can assure him that the Government will continue to work with TfL to address those concerns and ensure that TfL is able to meet both its housing and its receipts targets.
On Amendment 66, the noble Lord will be aware that the Government made a commitment in the housing White Paper to consult on extending the ability of local authorities to dispose of land at less than best consideration without seeking consent to do so from the Secretary of State.
Land disposals by local authorities are governed by a separate regime from those undertaken by the GLA. I do not believe it would be right in this Bill to reduce the protections established by the current requirement for consent of the Secretary of State for disposals by the GLA at less than best consideration. The White Paper did not specifically reference this GLA consent requirement, but I reassure the noble Lord that the scope of the consultation announced in the White Paper will extend to the GLA consent regime.
With the reassurance that we will continue to work with TfL and the GLA to find appropriate solutions to the very real concerns the noble Lord has raised, I hope he will be prepared to withdraw the amendment so that we can end Report on a consensual note.
I am happy not to press my amendments at this stage, but will just say that I do not know whether these discussions are ongoing. Is the noble Lord suggesting that there may be some light and that this may come back at Third Reading or is he suggesting that it is more likely that this will be addressed in a White Paper? Or could it be either? Some clarification on that would be useful. Important points have been raised. The Mayor of London has specific targets for building homes in London, and we all want to see that happen—but if you want to get it done, these things need to be addressed. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 65 withdrawn.
Amendment 66 not moved.
Clause 40: Consequential provision
Amendment 67 not moved.
68: Clause 40, leave out Clause 40
Amendment 68 agreed.
Amendment 69 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.
Clause 41: Regulations
70: Clause 41, page 36, line 12, leave out “26(1)” and insert “26(A1), (A2) or (1)”
Amendment 70 agreed.
Amendment 71 not moved.
Amendments 72 to 74
72: Clause 41, page 36, line 13, leave out “40(1)” and insert “(Consequential provision)(1)”
73: Clause 41, page 36, line 16, leave out “26(1)” and insert “26(A1), (A2) or (1)”
74: Clause 41, page 36, line 23, leave out “40(1)” and insert “(Consequential provision)(1)”
Amendments 72 to 74 agreed.
Amendment 75 not moved.
Clause 42: Extent
76: Clause 42, page 36, line 40, leave out “This Part extends” and insert “Section (Consequential provision) and this Part extend”
Amendment 76 agreed.
Clause 43: Commencement
77: Clause 43, page 37, line 13, at end insert—
“( ) section (Consequential provision);”
Amendment 77 agreed.