Motion to Approve
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have supported the presentation of these four statutory instruments, and I will also speak to the remaining three.
These regulations were laid before both Houses on 30 January. They enable the Government to address deficiencies in retained EU law caused by the United Kingdom withdrawing from the EU, which would impact the operation of the retained social security co-ordination regulations in a no-deal scenario. The whole system of social security co-ordination across the EU relies on co-operation and reciprocity. The legal framework for this will cease in a no-deal scenario. The UK will have no means of enforcing reciprocal obligations on EU member states and cannot therefore legislate for this when correcting deficiencies in the co-ordination regulations.
These instruments aim to maintain the status quo on a unilateral basis, ensuring that citizens’ rights are protected as far as possible in a no-deal scenario in relation to social security. They are intended to ensure a functioning statute book in the event of no deal, by fixing deficiencies in retained EU law, in line with the power provided by Section 8 of the EU withdrawal Act.
The list of specific legislation that these regulations amend is lengthy but can broadly be split into three categories. The first is data and information sharing. The co-ordination regulations require EU member states to exchange information through specific administrative procedures laid down in the regulations. Data shared is used, for example, to establish which member state is responsible for payment of benefits to avoid overlapping benefits being paid in different member states. These instruments will enable us to ask claimants to provide, within reasonable time, the relevant information to determine competence in cases where the relevant member state does not do so when asked. They also include provisions to ensure that the UK can continue to share data with member states when they are applying the co-ordination regulations.
These SIs also remove provisions within the retained co-ordination regulations that will be inoperable if the UK leaves the European Union without a deal. For example, the co-ordination regulations make provision for a number of bodies at EU level to deal with administrative and technical issues or disputes arising from the application of the social security co-ordination regulations—the administrative commission being the main one. These instruments remove references to these bodies on the basis that they will be inoperable when the UK withdraws from the EU in a no-deal scenario.
Finally, they deal with applicable legislation. The co-ordination regulations state that an individual shall be subject to only one EU member state’s legislation at a time. These arrangements rely on co-ordination between member states in order to operate effectively. These instruments amend the co-ordination regulations to maintain the status quo for when UK legislation does, and does not, apply. These regulations are made using powers in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to fix legal inoperabilities and other deficiencies that will arise on exit in retained EU law, so that the converted law continues to operate effectively post exit, and to make consequential provision.
The legal powers used are those provided for under the EU withdrawal Act, and the amendments made are completely in line with both the policy and legal intent of that Act. The use of secondary legislation to amend primary legislation—the so-called Henry VIII powers—was debated at length during the passage of the Act.
These statutory instruments are part of a wider legislative package that my department is laying. We have already laid SIs relating to private pensions, the European job mobility portal regime—more commonly known as EURES—and consequential powers. My officials will be happy to provide noble Lords with more information on the department’s legislative programme following the debate.
No formal consultation on the regulations has been carried out by the Department for Work and Pensions as the instruments address deficiencies in retained EU law and there is no significant impact as a result. My officials, nevertheless, had informal discussions with the Social Security Advisory Committee on these instruments; these focused on technical issues and policy considerations. Similarly, we expect the regulations to have no impact on business, charities, voluntary bodies or the public sector.
In my view, the provisions in these statutory instruments are compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. The Minister of State for Employment has also made the same statement.
All noble Lords will know that the EU withdrawal Act is a crucial piece of legislation that will ensure that whatever the outcome of negotiations, we have a functioning statute book on exit day, providing certainty to people and business across the UK. The Act enables this by providing a power for Ministers in the UK Government and devolved Administrations to deal with deficiencies in the law arising as a result of our exit from the EU.
These regulations are an essential part of the legislative programme that my department is laying in preparation for a no-deal scenario. They are needed to correct deficiencies so that the system can function, albeit unilaterally, and to retain the department’s ability to make payments to claimants and to determine claims. Not proceeding with this legislation would result in a statute book that does not function correctly and would fail to protect citizens’ rights. Passing these SIs will ensure that we are ready for all eventualities.
My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing these regulations. As we have heard, they seek to address deficiencies in retained law caused by the UK withdrawing from the EU. They amend the retained EU regulations comprising the co-ordination regulations, which currently co-ordinate social security systems throughout the EU.
Given that the changes these regulations cover potentially create new imposts and a move away from the status quo, it seems to us that there is a case for an impact assessment and some consultation. Change is necessary, as we have heard, because the current system relies on co-operation and reciprocity from other member states and that cannot be guaranteed when we withdraw in all respects. It will not be possible, for example, to impose reciprocal obligations on member states when correcting deficiencies, or say when co-ordinating rules relate to individuals moving to or from the UK. We understand and accept that.
The regulations will amend retained co-ordination regulations covering provisions that will not apply to the UK, confer functions on EU entities that will no longer have functions in relation to the UK, and make provision for reciprocal arrangements between the UK and other European Union member states. According to the Explanatory Memorandum:
“The instruments aim to ensure that citizens’ rights are protected as far as possible in a no-deal scenario”.
How? It is asserted that this is about maintaining the status quo, but will the Minister say to what extent the instrument varies from the maintenance of the status quo in practice? How does she characterise this?
The legal framework, as we have heard, for co-operation and enforcing reciprocal obligations in a no-deal scenario will cease. The Explanatory Memorandum states that:
“These instruments aim to maintain the status quo on a unilateral basis”,
but there will be arrangements which are inoperable. These include the denial of membership of such bodies as the administrative commission, the advisory body and the audit board. Will the Minister say in more detail what the implications of this are? It is noted that the ability to make provisional payments in the event of an unresolved dispute will no longer exist, although it is understood that these are in fact little used.
The approach to amending the co-ordination regulations is to focus on circumstances where the UK legislation does apply. Will the Minister please expand on that assertion? The Explanatory Memorandum identifies that the change,
“may give rise to occasions where an individual becomes subject to the legislation of more than one state at a time”,
and possibly to the legislation of two or more states. This is noted as being an unavoidable consequence of a no-deal exit which cannot be managed using powers in the withdrawal Act, but has any assessment been undertaken of the consequences? On what basis does the Minister conclude that the changes,
“do not give rise to any new costs or any financial or economic impact”?
Further, it is understood that fixes for deficiencies relating to healthcare are not provided for in these SIs. How and where are they to be provided for? We know that, by virtue of the EEA agreement and the Swiss free movement of people agreement, the co-ordination regulations also apply in the EEA. Will she outline the full consequences of that for us tonight? I am conscious that there were one or two technical questions there, but this is a technical document and we are entitled to ask them, although I do not believe that we will have undue problems in supporting the regulations.
My Lords, I also thank the Minister for introducing this rather hefty set of statutory instruments and I echo my noble friend Lord McKenzie in citing paragraph 2.6 in the Explanatory Memorandum—which the Minister also cited:
“These instruments aim to ensure that citizens’ rights are protected as far as possible in a no-deal scenario”.
Phrases such as “as far as possible” rather leap out at us when we are looking at these things. What does it mean exactly? Will the Minister tell us what scenarios are envisaged in which it will not be possible to protect existing citizens’ rights?
Noble Lords will be pleased to know that I will be very brief, after my rather lengthy speech earlier, but I am more worried having read the debates in the Public Bill Committee on the Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill. A number of those giving evidence to the Committee raised serious concerns about Clause 5, which deals with future social security co-ordination and which, in the words of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee is,
“so lacking in any substance whatsoever that it cannot even be described as a skeleton … There is, moreover, no indication at all in the Explanatory Notes or Memorandum that the Government have even begun to devise their policy on the future of social security co-ordination post EU exit”.
Will the Minister explain how the regulations and this thinner-than-a-skeleton clause in the Bill relate to each other? Can she give us some assurance that the Government have begun to devise their policy regarding future social security co-ordination post EU exit, and perhaps some inkling of the lines on which they are thinking?
My Lords, I too have some questions. In May 2018, the Commons European Scrutiny Committee raised very strong concerns about providing legally binding arrangements to protect existing rights. We have already heard mention of non-emergency healthcare; these regulations apparently do not provide that. There are also issues about EU-wide dealings or the need for bilateral arrangements with EU and third countries.
The noble Baroness spoke about data and information sharing. Again, this is a vexed area of negotiation. Certain laws govern the ability to share information and, unless we have some form of legally binding agreement, I cannot really see how this can happen, having looked at the evidence of various people who have looked into data sharing with the EU after Brexit.
We are talking about removing inoperable clauses, under the withdrawal Bill, in relation to the administrative commission. We have mention of disputes; who will settle disputes? There will be a need for medical assessments if they are not provided by individual countries.
It is not clear what is meant by “evidence”. I know that, in my own city, EU citizens have had a very hard time providing evidence of residence in this country, even though some of them have lived here for 40 years. I would like to know what sort of guidance will be given on the quality of the evidence, and how that will be provided to people.
On disputes and the removal of provisional payments, again it is not clear how and under what authority disputes are to be resolved. What is the final authority? This is left fairly open, and could be open to legal action. How will rulings be managed if we come out without a deal and are not proposing to recognise the European Court of Justice?
I am sure it is important that the Government look ahead to the possibility of no deal, but it seems to me that there are lots of very open areas in these regulations that need to be fleshed out. We are talking about the rights of individuals and how they can manage without benefits—where there are disputes, for example.
I very much echo the calls made by other Members here for an impact assessment. It seems to me that there is a fundamental need, given the potential impact of these systems not working after Brexit day, for an impact assessment to be carried out.
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her introduction and all noble Lords for their contributions. I start with an apology, because I will not be brief. I do not often make lengthy speeches in this House, but I have been through these regulations as best as I can—and there are a lot of them—read the Explanatory Memorandum and listened carefully to the Minister’s introduction, and all that I have read in the Memorandum and the introduction implies that these are simply technical amendments which will not make much difference or have much impact. I must therefore have misunderstood them, so I apologise because I will ask quite a lot of questions, since I can only conclude that my understanding of their impact is in some way erroneous. I look forward to having that corrected.
First, my understanding is that the current rules about social security co-ordination within the EU are based on four principles: the single state principle, which means that at any point in time I am covered only by the social security system of one country and pay contributions only in one country; equal treatment, which means that if I am in another member state then I am treated by it the same way as one of its nationals; aggregation, by which periods of insurance, employment or residence in another member state count when determining my eligibility for benefits; and exportability, which means I can receive benefits from one member state even when I am living in another one.
If we have a deal, the withdrawal agreement will cover the transition period during which EU social security co-ordination will continue to include the UK and our citizens, and the political declaration says that the UK and the EU agree to consider future social security co-ordination in the light of future movement of persons. I guess that the presumption, therefore, is that the UK will seek to strike a single deal with the EU rather than bilateral agreements with member states.
However, if there is no deal, there are no provisional transitions, and in the absence of comprehensive alternative arrangements, problems could arise on all those fronts, including whether you can aggregate contributions, export benefits to other member states, the risk of having to pay double national insurance contributions, a lack of clarity about which country is responsible for paying someone’s benefits, and no mechanism for resolving disputes.
The scale is significant. The House of Commons Library briefing on the immigration Bill said:
“In 2017-18, UK benefits totalling around £2 billion were exported to around 500,000 claimants living in EEA countries. Over 90% … was on State Pensions, and over 90% of the recipients … were UK or Irish nationals.”.
In addition, more than 1 million people will be affected by the aggregation issues, according to evidence given to the Commons committee on the immigration Bill by British in Europe.
My first question for the Minister is this. There were some bilateral agreements between the UK and some EU member states, which predate either their or our entry into the EU. Would any of those still be applicable in a no-deal scenario? Would we seek to update them, would we want to negotiate additional unilateral arrangements with other member states, or is it our intention to seek a whole EU deal in the event of there being no deal?
If we end up with no deal, we could see UK citizens returning to the UK, perhaps in significant numbers, and needing help. DExEU published a policy paper on 6 December called Citizens’ Rights—EU Citizens in the UK and UK Nationals in the EU, which accepted the importance of returning UK nationals being able quickly to access benefits and housing. Paragraph 24 stated:
“Arrangements will be made to ensure continuity of payments for those who return and are already in receipt of UK state pension or other UK benefits while living in the EU. We are considering how support could be offered to returning UK nationals where new claims are made and will set out further details in due course”.
Given that “in due course” is running out, can the Minister tell the House what continuity arrangements have been put in place for those whose benefits are already in payment, and what support will be offered to new claimants?
The European Commission has called on member states to protect citizens by taking account of periods of work or insurance in the UK before Brexit for both EU 27 and UK nationals, by ensuring the aggregation benefits for those who carry on living in the UK, and more crucially, by encouraging member states to carry on exporting pensions to the UK even though it will then be a third country. But we do not know what will happen in practice. The Government’s website has a page entitled “UK nationals in the EU: benefits and pensions in a ‘no deal’ scenario”. However, it tells you very little at all, except that if someone is already getting UK benefits for a state pension transferred to another member state, that can carry on being paid there, and that their entitlement to any in-country benefits will depend on what the EU decides. So we are very much in the dark.
As my noble friend Lord McKenzie said, the whole system of social security co-ordination relies on reciprocity, which cannot be assumed in a no-deal world, so we cannot make other states give us information or co-operate, or require them to apply the current rules to us. The Explanatory Memorandum said—and the Minister has said—
“These regulations aim to address deficiencies in retained law caused by the UK withdrawing from the EU and ensure citizens’ rights are protected as far as possible in a no deal scenario”.
In other words, they are designed to maintain the status quo. I have never liked this language of “deficiencies”, because these are not accidental deficiencies but a direct consequence of the Government refusing to rule out no deal. Those deficiencies are a loss of all kinds of rights, acquired in some cases over decades, which people may experience. This is entirely avoidable—it is simply because we could be in a no-deal situation.
These regulations are intended to maintain the status quo, so I want to try to test the veracity of that claim in a no-deal scenario. The current rules allow you to use periods of insurance contributions elsewhere which can be aggregated together. So someone who has worked in other member states can make one application to the relevant agency in the country in which they live. In the UK, this is the International Pension Centre in Newcastle.
The Commons brief on the immigration Bill gives a really good example, if noble Lords will allow me to describe it. Someone called Jo worked in France, after leaving university, before returning to the UK in 2008. He carried on working here, paying UK national insurance contributions until he reached state pension age in November 2018. As things then stood, Jo did not have to make separate claims to get his French and UK pensions. He had to submit a single claim to the international pension authority, and the centre in Newcastle contacted the French pension authorities. They calculated his entitlement to a French pension and put it into payment. The centre also calculated that Jo was entitled to 9/35ths of a full UK state pension because he had paid nine years of contributions here. That was put into payment as well. The only reason he got it was because his period of insurance in France meant that this tipped him over the minimum of 10 years of national insurance contributions that you have to have to get into the British state system in the first place.
My primary question is: do these regulations preserve the right of UK and EU nationals to aggregate periods working in other EU member states when determining entitlement to UK benefits and the state pension? Where is this spelled out? Is it in domestic legislation? Is it remaining unchanged? Does it include EEA states? Where is it laid out unequivocally?
Secondly, the regulations allow the DWP to ask claimants to provide the relevant evidence where the EU member state cannot or will not. The Explanatory Memorandum says, at paragraph 7.2:
“in the event that the information provided by the claimant is insufficient, the UK will no longer be required to fulfil any obligation under the Coordination Regulations”.
This sounds quite harsh. What would happen to Jo if he retired after a no-deal Brexit? He would have to do two things. First, he would have to access his French pension. Would this be done through the International Pension Centre, as it is at the moment? Or would he have to apply directly to the French authorities? Crucially, would he definitely be able to have that French pension paid to him in the UK? In other words, would France export the pension, as requested by the Commission? If not, Jo could be in an impossible position. He might need to return to the UK to care for elderly parents, but if he could not get the bulk of his pension here, what would he do? What if some of our citizens found that they had no residence rights anywhere else, so were forced back to the UK and yet could not access the benefits or pensions they needed because they had entitlement in other member states? What would happen to them?
Then Jo would need to access his UK pension. To get that, he would need evidence that he had paid national insurance contributions in France, as he would need a minimum of 10 qualifying years to get into the UK system. This would raise other questions. Would the International Pension Centre in Newcastle contact the French pension authorities to get this evidence for Jo, or would he have to get it himself? Either way, if the French did not oblige, what would Jo have to produce? If he did not have documents that the DWP liked, he would get no pension at all in the UK, even though he was legally entitled to it. Would he have to pay to get documents translated and notarised? How long would this all take?
As the noble Baroness, Lady Janke, said, it is crucial to know what would count as evidence. I could not produce payslips from 20 years ago, and I think a lot of noble Lords could not either. So, if the authorities in another EU state refuse to co-operate, what should people do? They could go back to their employer, but firms go out of business or merge. In most countries, they would not be required to keep records dating back decades. So, would other forms of evidence be accepted—for example, witness statements from co-workers, neighbours or doctors? Has the evidential basis been published? If not, will the Minister guarantee to conduct a consultation on it at once, so that we can see what would happen?
If a UK firm posted a worker abroad, could the firm be compelled to provide the necessary information to the DWP? If Jo were legally entitled to a state pension here, but could not prove it because the French Government would not co-operate, who would decide that he would not get that to which he was entitled? How could he appeal a refusal?
I have a few more short questions. The Commons brief points out that these regulations remove entirely article 4 of EU regulation 883/2004 which contains the equal treatment provisions to which I referred at the outset. The Explanatory Memorandum does not explain why this provision has been removed. Can the Minister tell us why it was? UK nationals working in the EU and EU residents working in the UK could be required to pay national contributions here as well as paying contributions in another EU member state, so a worker posted to Germany by her British company could end up paying double national insurance contributions. Did the Government consider waiving NICs for someone in this country, which would of course replicate the status quo rather more precisely that what seems to be in here? If not, as my noble friend asked, how could they then say that there are no costs attached to these regulations?
The regulations abolish provisional payments while a dispute is being resolved with an EU member state. The memorandum says that these provisions are hardly ever used, but since there will not be any resolution mechanisms in the future and there will not be a common rulebook, it is entirely possible that the situations which might require them to be used could be far more numerous. What assessment was made of the likelihood of disputes arising in no deal which would trigger payments of this sort? While these regulations are operational, if they ever come to be, what is the status of post-Brexit contributions in other EU states? Will UK state pensions be uprated when paid in other EU member states after no deal? Ministers have said that they will be for 2019-20, but what happens after that?
I want to say a brief word on the point raised by my noble friend Lady Lister about the Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which has been debated in another place and which in its territory overlaps very much with this instrument. As we have heard, that Bill contains eye-watering Henry VIII powers that basically would allow Ministers to rewrite the social security co-ordination rules at will. I am not a Brexit specialist, so can the Minister can explain this to me? If there is no deal, does that Bill fall? If it does not, how do the Government intend to honour the commitments spelt out by the Minister herself and spelt out in the memorandum when they have the power to rewrite them entirely? Will they commit to use those Henry VIII powers only to replicate the provisions of these regulations?
Finally, if there is a deal, what is the status of these regulations?
I apologise for asking so many questions, but they are all important for the great many people who could be affected. I gave the Minister notice of my technical questions, albeit only yesterday, but my priority is to get things answered on the record. The date of 29 March is only three weeks away. If the Government allow a no-deal scenario, these problems will become a reality for many UK citizens living in the EU and vice versa. They and I look forward to the Minister’s reply.
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this excellent debate and for the searching questions, if I may say so. I am particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, for giving me early notice of some of the very technical questions. I have to say, I am certainly not an expert in Brexit and I am not quite sure who is. We all hope very much that we will have a deal and we wish it was already in place. Let me do my best to respond to noble Lords’ questions.
As regards an impact assessment, I shall be absolutely straight. An impact assessment has not been prepared for these instruments as they make only technical changes to retained EU law and, as such, do not give rise to any new costs or financial or economic impact beyond the status quo. There is no, or no significant, impact on businesses, charities or voluntary bodies as a result of the instruments and there is no, or no significant, impact on the public sector. That said, as I referenced in my opening remarks on the statutory instruments, we take the role of the Social Security Advisory Committee very seriously. In response to the question of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, on consultation, the SSAC provides impartial advice on social security and related matters. It scrutinises most of the complex secondary legislation that underpins the social security system. The committee had the opportunity to review these regulations and a meeting was held on 7 March last year for it to share and discuss the initial drafts. The committee was content with the approach being taken.
Noble Lords asked a number of questions about future policy for social security and how these SIs fit with the immigration and social security Bill currently going through Parliament. These statutory instruments provide for a functioning statute book immediately after exit day, and the immigration and social security Bill ensures that there is the legislative framework required to deliver future policy at the appropriate time. Future policy changes will be set out in regulations made under that Bill and will be subject to the affirmative procedure.
The noble Baroness, Lady Janke, and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, referred to healthcare entitlement. I assure noble Lords that these statutory instruments do not make changes to healthcare policy. Any such changes will be brought forward by the Department of Health and Social Care via the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill and its statutory instruments. The Department of Health and Social Care is bringing forward the healthcare Bill to enable the UK to implement any future relationship with the EU on reciprocal healthcare as necessary and to ensure that the UK is prepared for any outcome if there is a no-deal exit. The healthcare Bill contains a power to amend, repeal or revoke retained EU law, so we do not anticipate the Department of Health and Social Care using this power.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked how the regulations vary from the status quo. The amendments retain the status quo for UK obligations to individuals. They include provision to allow information to be provided by the claimant where we now receive it from the member state. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also asked why provisional payments have been removed. The current provisional payment system operates where there is a dispute between member states of the European Union, disputes being an issue raised by all noble Lords. These disputes are resolved following a decision made by a mediation body, the administrative commission of the European Union. In a no-deal scenario, the UK will no longer be a member state or part of this body. That is why this provision has been removed. We will continue to use the same rules as now to determine whether the UK is competent. Any challenges will instead be resolved through domestic routes.
The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked about the terminology “as far as possible”. Perhaps it is the lawyer in me, but the reality from a legal standpoint is that it is sensible to use the terminology “as far as possible” rather than providing guarantees and raising an expectation, when something could happen where we would then fail to deliver. We are extremely keen to avoid that, particularly on such an important issue as social security. The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, also asked why this legislation only maintains the status quo and whether it is the Government’s plan not to change anything relating to social security. This legislation is about maintaining a functioning statute book. Of course, future policy is a matter for negotiations and, as such, cannot be discussed or raised today. I cannot say more than that today, but we are considering future policy with care. The Government are planning an ambitious deal with the EU in many areas, and this legislation is not about future policy but technical amendments to retained EU law.
The Government are confident that a deal will be reached. However, as a responsible Government, we are planning for all eventualities, including a no-deal scenario. Announcements relating to social security will therefore be made when it is appropriate to do so.
The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, also asked about social security co-ordination and how these statutory instruments fit with the immigration Bill. As I have said, this will be set out in regulations under that Bill.
There was a question about the ESIC referring to changes to retained EU regulations ensuring that any bilateral agreements between the UK and an EU country take precedence over the retained regulations and what impact this will have. Changes made through these fixing SIs are intended to deliver a functioning statute book on day one of exit to ensure a smooth and orderly exit. However, the UK will operate these retained regulations on a unilateral basis. As the Government negotiate future agreements with EU countries that provide for reciprocal social security co-ordination or agree to revive an existing reciprocal arrangement, retained EU law that delivers a unilateral system will no longer be appropriate.
Noble Lords may be interested to know that we have 17 reciprocal social security arrangements within the EU—with Austria, Belgium, Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Portugal, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden. We have reciprocal arrangements with two EEA countries, Iceland and Norway, and with Switzerland. However, there are apparently no reciprocal agreements with Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Greece, Hungary, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Poland, Romania and Slovakia.
There was question about people being affected by double contributions. The latest published figures from the EU show that in 2017 around 50,000 UK workers went to work in the EU and around 60,000 EU workers went to work in the UK under the co-ordinated regulations, which work to avoid duplication.
The noble Baroness, Lady Janke, referenced data sharing. We will continue to work closely with the EU 27 so that the first port of call for all contribution queries will be the appropriate administration in a member state. We would expect the claimant to provide wage slips or proof of contributions made. The Government will provide support to claimants where any additional information is required from them. The instruments include provisions to ensure that the UK can continue to share data with the EU member states when they are applying the co-ordinated regulations.
The noble Baroness, Lady Janke, asked what evidence an individual will have to produce to confirm contributions in the EU. The UK will consider evidence on a case-by-case basis. We would expect the claimant to provide wage slips or proof of contributions made. The Government will provide support to claimants where any additional information is required from them.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about healthcare. As I have said, the Department for Health and Social Care is bringing forward a healthcare Bill.
The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked what scenario is envisaged where rights would not be protected. We are not able to protect the rights of citizens to the extent that they are provided by member states. We have sought assurances, and will continue to do so, from member states that they will respect the rights of UK nationals.
The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked about bilateral agreements. In the event that the UK leaves without a withdrawal agreement, we will keep pre-existing reciprocal agreements with individual member states under review. Whether these come back into force will be subject to discussion and agreement between the UK and the relevant EU member state.
Will returnees have access to benefits? Returning UK nationals have the same rights to access benefits as other UK citizens or UK residents. For some benefits, in addition to meeting the entitlement conditions, certain residence criteria must be satisfied. For income-related means-tested benefits, such as universal credit and pension credit, claimants must be habitually resident in the UK. In general, this means that they will need to show that they have made the UK their home and plan to stay here. Those returning to the UK after a period spent abroad may be considered to be habitually resident on arrival if it can be established that they were previously habitually resident in the UK and are returning to resume their residence.
For some disability and carers’ benefits, such as personal independence payment and carer’s allowance, claimants must be habitually resident in the UK. They must also have been present in the UK for a specified period before the claim but this requirement may be satisfied if they have links with the UK—for example, if they have worked and paid national insurance contributions in the UK in the past.
The noble Baroness referred to the terminology “deficiencies”. The word “deficiencies”, from a legal standpoint, contains anything with no practical application to the UK rather than this being a political deficiency on the part of government. I want to make that clear.
I hope noble Lords will bear with me. The noble Baroness asked a number of technical questions, and I will do my best to answer them as efficiently and speedily as possible. First, it is correct that the UK has reciprocal social security agreements with 17 EU member states, as I have already referenced. These arrangements are generally superseded by EU social security regulations in the UK but are still in use by the Crown dependencies, where EU social security regulations do not apply.
The noble Baroness questioned bilateral arrangements between the UK and some EU states that predate their or our entry into the EU. In the event that the UK leaves without a withdrawal agreement, the UK will keep under review the role of pre-existing reciprocal arrangements with individual member states. Whether these come back into force will be subject to discussion and agreement between the UK and the relevant EU member state. The agreements will not automatically revive on exit. The UK is seeking discussions with member states on reciprocal social security co-ordination arrangements in a no-deal scenario.
An agreement has already been reached with Ireland. The UK Government have announced an agreement on social security with Ireland that guarantees continued access to state pensions and benefits for UK and Irish citizens and their qualifying family members when in the other state. I also say in response to the question from the noble Baroness on citizens’ rights that individuals who return to the UK post exit who were in receipt of a UK benefit while they were living in the EU will continue to receive it as long as they continue to meet the relevant entitlement conditions that I have referenced in relation to residency. In that case, returning UK nationals will have the same rights to access benefits as other UK citizens and residents.
The noble Baroness asked about aggregation. The EU withdrawal Act under which these SIs are laid will convert EU social security co-ordination law as it stands at the moment of exit into UK domestic legislation. This includes the rules governing aggregation that are covered in article 6 of Regulation 883/2004. These SIs do not remove these rules. Their purpose is to ensure that the UK statute book continues to work after exit day. However, it has to be said that, without reciprocity, there are limits to what the Government alone can do. We cannot bind other member states to recognise contributions made in the UK. Therefore, obviously, we will continue to pursue this matter with EU member states.
The noble Baroness referred to the case of someone called Joe and asked whether the international centre would apply for his French pension for him, or whether he would have to do it himself in France and whether he will definitely be able to have his pension paid to him in the UK. Under no deal, the International Pension Centre in Newcastle will continue to accept all claims that would be accepted under the current system. We cannot make any guarantees on the rules that would apply in other member states under no deal. However, as I said, we will continue to press on the matter.
Will the International Pension Centre in Newcastle contact the French pension authority to get this evidence for Joe, or will he have to get it himself? We will continue to work closely with the EU 27 so that the first port of call for all contribution queries will be the appropriate administration in a member state. The instruments include provisions to ensure that the UK can continue to share data with EU member states when they are applying co-ordinated regulations. If this is not possible, the UK Government will assist claimants in providing the appropriate evidence.
If the French do not oblige, what will Joe have to produce? Would payment of his French pension count as evidence? The UK Government will consider evidence on a case-by-case basis, but we would expect the claimant to provide wage slips or proof of contributions made, and we would accept payment of Joe’s French pension as sufficient evidence if there was adequate information on what the payment proves about his contributions and residence periods in France. I noted the noble Baroness’s question about what happens if one does not have 20 year-old wage slips lying around.
Will claimants have to pay to get documents translated and notarised? The Department for Work and Pensions currently receives documentation from all 27 EU member states and, where necessary, translates these documents. The claimant will not need to pay to translate or notarise documents.
We would expect claimants to provide what they can but the Government will provide support to them where additional information is required. We will keep evidence requirements under review as the documentation that will be provided by EU member states becomes clear. The purpose of these SIs is to ensure that current entitlements continue as best they can in a no-deal scenario. A claimant could appeal refusal of a claim through the usual appeal processes.
I am almost at the end but not quite. The current provisional payment system operates where there is a dispute between member states of the European Union. These disputes are resolved following a decision made by a mediation body of the administrative commission of the European Union. In a no-deal scenario, the UK will no longer be a member state or a part of this body, but we will continue to use the same rules as now to determine whether the UK is competent. Any challenges will be resolved through domestic routes—that is, through UK courts or tribunals.
I was asked whether we will compel UK nationals working in an EU member state to pay national insurance, even if they are also compelled to pay contributions in the state they are working in or even if they are posted workers. These instruments maintain the status quo with respect to paying national insurance in the UK. That means that workers posted to the EU will continue to pay UK national insurance so that they can maintain continuity of access to UK contributory benefits and the state pension. We are urging the EU and all its member states to protect the rights of UK nationals in the EU.
I think I have already dealt with the question of whether these SIs fix deficiencies in terms of the regulations being operational.
It has already been announced that state pensions for pensioners currently living in the EU will be uprated for 2019-20. We wish to continue uprating pensions beyond that point but will take decisions in the light of whether reciprocal arrangements with the EU are in place, as we hope and expect them to be.
With regard to whether UK nationals living in the EU will receive equal treatment with the nationals of the state administering the benefits of those UK nationals, the UK cannot protect the rights of UK nationals in the EU unilaterally, so, again, we are encouraging member states to do so. Clearly, we are not in a position to comment on the domestic law of member states but, in relation to benefits already in payment, member states will be bound by the European Convention on Human Rights, which might provide protection from benefits being removed.
Finally, these regulations have been drafted to apply only in a no-deal scenario to ensure that the UK statute book functions effectively with regard to social security co-ordination. In a deal scenario, we will consider what amendments to the retained social security co-ordination rules are appropriate.
That brings me to the close of this important debate. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions and for the constructive approach they have taken towards today’s debate. I hope that I have answered all the questions. The Government are committed to ensuring that the social security system works for everyone post exit day, and these regulations will help to do that by fixing minor and technical changes to existing DWP domestic legislation.