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Orders Of The Day

Volume 47: debated on Tuesday 21 January 1913

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Tellers For Divisions

I beg to ask, Mr. Speaker, a question relative to an incident which occurred at the end of the second Division yesterday afternoon, when only three Tellers appeared at the Table to announce the result. After a short period of suspense, Mr. Chairman decided to accept the figures from three of the Tellers, one being absent. I wish to ask whether there is any precedent for this, and whether you can give any ruling or direction to prevent any recurrence of this irregularity?

There is a precedent which I recollect very well, because I happened to be Chairman of Ways and Means at that time. I think it was in August, 1895. One of the Tellers absented himself, and did not appear at the Table to report the numbers; and I may take the opportunity now of repeating what I said on that occasion—that is, I informed the hon. Member—the defaulter—that it is his duty as Teller to remain within the House after he has told the numbers and not go outside the House until he has reported the numbers to the House. I regret that the incident should have occurred again yesterday. I think that after this statement hon. Members will take care to appear at the Table to report the numbers before they go into the Lobby or elsewhere. This can only have happened by the inadvertance or forgetfulness of the hon. Member in question.

Business Of The House

May I ask the Prime Minister if he can now make a statement as to the business for the rest of the Session?

When the House has concluded all the stages of the Established Church (Wales) Bill and the Franchise and Registration Bill—which we hope to do by 12th February—we shall ask the House to consider the Lords Amendments to the Temperance (Scotland) Bill, and we shall take some necessary Supplementary Estimates. Apart from one or two non-controversial measures, which we hope will pass by general agreement, there are two Bills, one of them of a more or less controversial nature, which the Government think it their duty to get through before the Session closes. I refer to the Trade Unions Bill and the Railways Bill, the latter introduced in fulfilment of a. Government pledge, and which I hope may be regarded as non-controversial. In order to abridge the length of the Session, and to consult the general convenience of the House, the Government suggest that these two Bills might be taken after 10.30 in the evening, on the understanding that the proceedings will not be prolonged on any night to a late hour. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]

Does the right hon. Gentleman really suppose that, the Trade Unions Bill can go through under such conditions? May I ask if he has made no provision for the day he promised for the discussion of the India Office Finance contract?

I did not mention that, because I was only dealing with legislation, but that promise will be fulfilled. As regards the other question, it is really a matter for the general convenience of the House. If the suggestion I have made—it is only a suggestion—that we should take these Bills after 10.30 is not adopted, the result, of course, will be that the House will have to sit longer, and it is really in the general interest of the House itself that I have made the suggestion.

I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will realise that, however anxious we may be for holidays, we are also anxious that the Trade Unions Bill should be properly discussed. I should like to know what the right hon. Gentleman's idea is as to the time we shall have for the recess after the end of this Session?

If the suggestion I have made be adopted, I should hope that we shall get a recess not later than the 19th February, or perhaps the 20th—I will not pledge myself—until 13th March. Of course, if the suggestion be not accepted, the length of the Session will be prolonged.

I am sure we all wish to get as much information as possible. How much Supply does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take, and is it his intention that the Session should not begin until 13th March?

I cannot say how many days at this moment. I hope it will be a very short time.

Will the Supplementary Estimates not require a Consolidated Fund Bill during the present Session?

Is there any hope of giving a day for the Public Accounts Committee this Session?

I do not know whether this is the time to raise a point as to what the Prime Minister has said. The questions which have been asked the right Gentleman suggest matters of the greatest importance and magnitude. I understand that his proposal is that the new Session should begin on the 13th of March. Good Friday is on the 21st March. Therefore, the King's Speech will last the whole time before Good Friday. It has always lasted a week, and unless there are specially few subjects to discuss in connection with the action of the Government, I presume it will last a week on this occasion, and any Supplementary Estimates not passed in the course of the present Session will have to be got. It is incredible in conformity with constitutional usage that all this should be done.

All the great questions of policy will have to be discussed, and Vote A and Vote I will have to be got, and also the Income Tax Bill.

I do not know whether that is a question; but assuming that it is a question, if the right hon. Gentleman refers to what happened in 1895, and in a later Session in which he himself was responsible for the business of the House, he will see that the same problems were substantially solved in this way.

Will the Supplementary Estimates include the £50,000 allocated for the Insurance Act in Ireland?

Do I understand that all the Supplementary Estimates for this financial year will be taken together 'with the necessary Consolidated Fund Bill in this Session and not in the next?

Bill Presented

Intermediate Education (Ireland) Bill

"To amend the Law relating to Intermediate Education in Ireland." Presented by Mr. BIRRELI; to be read a second time To-morrow (Wednesday), and to be printed. [Bill 351.]

Established Church (Wales) Bill

Further considered in Committee.

FOURTEENTH ALLOTTED DAY.—[ Progress, 20th January.]

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

Clause 23—(Supplemental Provisions As To Burial Grounds)

(1) Nothing in this Act shall during the incumbency of an existing incumbent of an ecclesiastical parish—

  • (a) affect any powers or rights with respect to burials in the burial ground of that parish, including the consecrated portion of any burial ground provided under the Burial Acts, 1852 to 1906, or affect any enactment requiring or authorising a notice or certificate of any burial to be given to the incumbent; or
  • (b) affect the right of any existing clerk or sexton to fees in respect of such burials.
  • (2) The vesting of any burial ground under this Act shall be without prejudice to any existing public and private rights of burial therein.

    (3) Where any burial ground which, under this Act, is transferred to any authority (whether a burial board, council, chairman of a parish meeting and overseers, or trustees) adjoins a church vested

    in the representative body, then after the determination of the incumbency of the existing incumbent—

  • (a) the burial ground shall be held subject to a right or way in the representative body, and the clergy and congregation attending the church, and such other persons as may resort thereto for the purpose of Divine worship, or of repairing the church, or for any other lawful purpose; and
  • (b) no funeral shall be allowed to take place during the usual time of the ordinary services in the church, and such other regulations shall be made as may be found necessary to prevent any interference, by persons attending funerals, with the clergy or congregation attending the church; and
  • (c) any road or path through the burial ground to the church shall be kept in good and sufficient repair.
  • (4) Subject as aforesaid, every such burial ground shall after the determination of the incumbency of the existing incumbent be held for the same purposes and subject to the same rules and regulations as if the Burial Acts, 1852 to 1906, were in force in the area of the authority by which the burial ground is to be administered, and as if it were a burial ground provided under those Acts, and those Acts, so far as is consistent, with the tenor thereof, and with the provisions of this Act, shall apply accordingly:

    Provided that where any such burial ground is under this Act transferred to the chairman of the parish meeting and overseers of a rural parish the necessary steps shall forthwith be taken for a constitution of a burial authority for the parish.

    had given notice of an Amendment in Sub-section (1), after the word "shall" ["nothing in this Act shall"], to leave out the words "during the incumbency of an existing incumbent of an ecclesiastical parish."

    The first Amendment is not in order, as it would negative what the Committee has already decided in Subsection (1) of Clause 8.

    On a point of Order. May I submit that this has nothing to do with what has passed before. It has to do with powers and rights and has nothing to do with the vesting Clauses under them.

    If the hon. Member looks at Clause 8, Sub-section (1), paragraph (b) he will see that this Amendment would negative entirely the decision come to on that occasion.

    What was dealt with, in Clause 8 was the transfer of the property to different bodies, but this deals with certain rights and provides that during the incumbency they are vested in the existing incumbent.

    So far as that point is concerned if it is raised it can be dealt with on the next Amendment to leave out Sub-section (2).

    4.0 P.M.

    It may be sufficient to raise the point to leave out Sub-section (2), but that Sub-section only provides that "the vesting of any burial ground under this Act shall be without prejudice to any existing public and private rights of burial therein. That is an entirely different matter from what is dealt with in Clause 23, Sub-section (1), paragraph (a), which deals with "any powers or rights with respect to burials in the burial ground of that parish "—that is to say, the powers and rights with respect to burials. Those rights would not have anything to do with public or private rights, which would coexist whether you had the control in one hand or in another. Therefore the powers with respect to burial have nothing to do with the burial ground or with public and' private rights.

    The point would come up on Sub-section (2). Sub-section (1) makes provision during the existing incumbency, and Sub-section (3) deals with-what is to happen after the determination of the incumbency.

    I am sorry to be persistent, but it does not seem so clear to me. I quite agree that the question of vesting the property was dealt with under Clause 8. That is over. Then under Clause 23 there are two distinct matters. One has regard to powers and rights with respect to burial after that change has been made. That is one point. The other question, which is a definite one under Sub-section (3), is as regards the particular churchyard, or adjoining churchyard, and that is dealt with in a particular way. I cannot press the point any further, but I suggest that the first part of Clause 23 is really distinct, and deals with a matter distinct either from Clause 8 or the subsequent portions of Clause 23.

    It appears to me that if the hon. and learned Member's Amendment were carried it would make the decision of the Committee on Clause 8 of practically no effect.

    May I, on the point of Order, put this consideration? Clause 8 transferred the property of the incumbent during his lifetime. That is all done. But my hon. and learned Friend's Amendment does not deal with the property at all. The property is in hand of the burial authority, and the Amendment deals purely with the rights that will exist while the property is in the hands of 1he other body. The two points are quite distinct. Clause 8 deals with the properly irrespective of whose hands the property happened to be in.

    I have examined the point very carefully, and the Amendment would, in effect, undo what was done by Clause 8.

    I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (2).

    I move this in the absence of my Noble Friend (Viscount Wolmer). The point, as I understand—the Home Secretary will tell me if I am right—dealt with in Subsection (2), is not as regards any general power or right with respect to burial, but whether the existing public and private interests of burial therein are to be affected by this Bill. If I may, I will put it to him in this way: Supposing there is a private right of burial in a reserve part of a churchyard or a burial ground, if I follow aright the reading of Sub-section (2), that right cannot be affected by the passing of the Bill into an Act of Parliament. Also, if I follow aright the wording of Sub-section (2), when you talk about the existing public right of burial therein you mean such a right as existed in regard to any particular burial ground before this Act had passed. If, of course, it is limited in that way, if that is the real limitation, then, so far as I am concerned, I should not desire, naturally enough, to cut out a limitation of that kind as regards the right of burial held by any private individual in a particular part of a burial ground. I want to know particularly whether it goes further than that. I apprehend that the vesting of any burial ground as a property does not alter the existing public rights or private rights which at the present time, for instance, are vested in the incumbent. It only means so far as* representatives of a deceased person desire that he should be buried in a particular burial ground, that then his burial should be subject to the same rights as it would have been if this Act had not passed. Of course, limited in that form I should not care personally to carry my objection any further, but is that right? I want this to be made quite clear. If it is limited in that way, then it does not in any way affect any rights which the incumbent now has, as regards the general powers for burial, which, of course, are entirely apart and have nothing to do with the person in whom the property is vested. It is common ground, I think the Home Secretary will recognise, that the vesting of the property in the burial ground is quite distinct from the control of burial, and if this Subsection is merely to preserve the existing rights of burial, so far as I am concerned I should not carry my opposition further to Sub-section (2).

    I am advised that the hon. and learned Member has stated the construction of this Sub-section quite accurately. On the vesting of the property in any burial authority, Sub-section (2) preserves all existing rights. This Sub-section might be considered not to be necessary, but it is put in by way of precaution. Clause 8, Sub-section (2) declares that existing rights are preserved, save as may be otherwise provided by this Act. Inasmuch as Clause 8 deals with burial rights, these words are inserted by way of precaution. I think that what the hon. and learned Gentleman has stated is strictly right.

    I realise that they are burial rights, but I want to ask a more specific question. So far as I am aware, any parishioner has a right to burial in the churchyard—that is to say, in consecrated ground. Will he have exactly the same right after this Bill is passed? I want to know what becomes of the theory of Disestablishment. You are really compelling the Church to undertake certain duties which it does now because it is an Established Church, and you are compelling the Church to perform those duties even though the Church has ceased to be Established. Let me put another point. I think I am right in saying that the bishop is under an obligation to consecrate a part of the cemetery, or any addition to the churchyard. Is that right preserved? Is that duty preserved? If so, I want to know how it is to be justified. Here, again, you will be putting compulsion upon an officer of what has ceased to be an Established Church to carry out certain duties. Are you putting that compulsion upon him? If not, we ought to know what the rights and duties are. One of the rights existing now is the right of every parishioner to be buried in consecrated ground, and he can be buried in the churchyard, and has a common law right to be so buried. It seems to me that you have got the thing into an absolute tangle; we do not know where we are in the least; and, while you profess to free the Church from all kinds of liabilities, you are, at all events as regards the burial ground, maintaining a number of duties and liabilities which attach to the Church at the present time. I regret very much that we were unable to discuss the first Amendment on the Paper, but, as we could not, the point has been raised on the present Amendment. I think we have a right to know a little more definitely what are those rights and duties.

    There are no duties. The Sub-section does not contain a word about duties. It refers to certain rights of parishioners to be interred in the churchyard.

    It seems to me if there is a right belonging parishioners there must be some corresponding duty on the part of the Church. I do not see how you are to divorce them.

    This Clause makes no duty of the Church or any officer of the Church. The churchyard is parish property, of which certain officers of the Church have been the trustees. Hereafter, when this parish property is vested in a burial authority, the same will be subject to all existing rights of parishioners to be buried in a particular plot of land.

    There is a difficulty which probably the right hon. Gentleman may be able to clear up in regard to the rights of parishioners or the inhabitants of the parish. The parish in origin was certainly ecclesiastical, though it is quite true it has been used for civil purposes since. But if you destroy the Church altogether, if you Disestablish her altogether, do you not destroy the parish altogether also, at any rate as far as it is in ecclesiastical area? It seems to me exceedingly doubtful whether there is anything left to the parishioner at all. I took the trouble to look at a well-known text-book on the subject to see what the rights are, and I find it says:—

    "Every parishioner or inhabitant of a parish, and every person dying within the parish, has the right of burial in the parish churchyard or burial ground.
    That is true, but that depends whether the parish is existing. The right of the parishioner depends on the existence of the parish, and if the parish does not exist there can be no right of a parishioner. The matter is one of very considerable doubt, and is one which is not dealt with in this Bill. One would have expected some Clause saying that parishes for the purposes of this Bill would still exist, though for ecclesiastical purposes they would not. I confess it is a matter of very great doubt whether anyone would have the right to be buried in the parish churchyard after this Bill is passed. Whether that be so or not, one thing is certainly clear, and that is that this particular Subsection is unnecessary if Sub-section (2) of Clause 8 is to remain, because it is merely repeating in respect of burial ground what has been already put in the Bill in respect of the whole Bill. The right hon. Gentleman said it does, not retain or affect the duties of the bishops to consecrate. Surely he is wrong. The duty of the bishop he owes to someone; it may be to the Crown or to the people. I do not know how you will enforce it. I suppose there is something in the nature of maintenance on some similar basis as in the Ecclesiastical Courts that depends on the right of the Crown to maintain that duty, and therefore the right will be preserved.

    That may, and therefore my observation is really confined to the first proposition, namely, as to whether the right of the parishioner is preserved and if a parishioner still exists. I ask does a parishioner still exist, and, if he does, does he exist for all purposes? If he exists for burial purposes, are we to take it that he exists for all other purposes? Is he to have all the existing rights in the Church, to the ministrations of the clergy, and all the rest of it? What rights are maintained and what rights are not? I quite agree it is not very convenient to ask these questions on this Amendment, but we are in this difficulty, that we never discussed Clause 8, Sub-section (2), and we never found out what really was intended to be preserved by that Section, and we have never been told yet by the Government what they do mean by Disestablishing all connection between State and Church, and what common law and Statute laws are really repealed. They have always resisted any attempt to define those laws. They have these general phrases. We cannot get from them what it is is destroyed, and what it is is left, and that is what we want to know. I do think, in the interests of everybody, Nonconformists as well as Churchmen, that it is desirable we should really know who are parishioners under this Bill, and what rights they have, not only in the churchyard, but in the Church itself. It seems to me that this is a crucial and excellent instance of testing the extent of the knowledge of the Government of their own Bill.

    Let me put a concrete case. One of the first results of the Disen-dowment portion of the Bill will be that the Church will have to reorganise its system in Wales altogether, and it seems most probable that they will do what they often had to do before when they have been in an impoverished condition, amalgamate several parishes. What is going to happen then, and who is to say who is a parishioner—that is, as my Noble Friend remarked, if the parochial system still goes on at all. I should have certainly thought that the parochial system, as an ecclesiastical system, has been destroyed and irrevocably broken up over and over again by the Clauses that we have already passed. Take another point. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary said that we were only dealing with rights, and that there were, no duties involved in this particular Sub-section. Is that so? I own I speak as a layman, but it is my opinion that the rights of the parishioner do involve corresponding duties on the incumbent. Take a particular instance. Is it not the fact that the incumbent is bound to read the Burial Service over a parishioner who is a member of the Church of England? That is only one instance, and no doubt there may be many others which one cannot go into now. I feel sure that the right hon. Gentleman is wrong when he says that there are no duties involved in this particular Sub-section. As my Noble Friend stated, this is one of the cases where we are left absolutely in the dark as to what is meant or is not meant by the rights of the parishioners. It only bears out what we have said time after time on this side of the House, namely, that we should have had a specific list set out in a Schedule to this Bill stating what Acts are being repealed, for most of these parochial questions do depend on specific Acts of Parliament, and how far they are repealed. I think we should have some answer from the right hon. Gentleman as to what he really means by these parochial obligations going on after the parochial system will probably have been destroyed.

    The Noble Lord was right when he pointed out that this Sub-section is already included in Clause 8. On the other hand, we want to make it perfectly clear that there shall be no dispute on this point. Speaking as a Nonconformist, I regard it as a very important point. At present, as I understand the matter, there is a right in the parishioner and in the inhabitant and non-parishioner who dies in the parish to be buried in the parish churchyard. That is my contention, and I think it is right. The hon. Member who spoke last said that where there is a right there is a duty. The right is as against the clergyman and the churchwarden at present. That right can be enforced against the clergyman and churchwarden. What is to become of that right under this Bill? Without going into controversial matters as to whether the right over the churchyard is in the incumbent or in the parishioners, at any rate when the churchyard has been transferred from the incumbent or parishioner to the burial authority we want to make it perfectly clear as against this new burial authority that the right of the parishioner and of the non-parishioner who dies in the parish is preserved. I said I spoke to some extent as a Nonconformist in this matter. I daresay there are hundreds of chapels in Wales where there are no churchyards connected with the chapels. The parish where I was brought up was one of those. Nonconformists are buried in those churchyards, and many of us, of course, have got certain rights there. This is a portion of the Bill about which 1 feel most strongly, and Nonconformists want to put this question beyond all questions so that, whatever happens in the future, we shall have the rights under the new burial authority to be buried in the churchyard after Disestablishment. I am sure hon. Members will understand and sympathise with us in our desire to put this matter beyond all controversy.

    I quite admit that, but the Noble Lord himself mentioned Nonconformists. I accept that, and I say it is important for us that these rights shall be safeguarded. As far as churchyards are concerned, when there is no legally Established Church they are vested in the burial authority. We are most anxious that this right shall be absolutely clear—that is, the right of the parishioners and of all inhabitants and non-parishioners who die in the parish to have their old common law right to be buried in the churchyard, and that that should be preserved under this Bill.

    I think the hon. and learned Gentleman, although quite lucid in the part of the Bill with which he dealt, omitted to deal with several points raised. In the first place, he has not answered what I took to be a specific question put by the Noble Lord, namely, what, after this Bill is passed, constitutes a parishioner. Take a perfectly simple concrete case. I suppose there are a great many cases in which the civil and ecclesiastical parishes do not coincide. I am not an expert in this or any other branch of law, but I presume that the right of burial as it deals with ecclesiastical matters is settled by Ecclesiastical Courts.

    There may be doubtful cases, but the hon. and learned Gentleman who very courteously and very properly threw in that interruption will be able to answer this specific question. Take the case where the ecclesiastical and civil parish are not the same, and where a man who is in the ecclesiastical parish, but not in the civil parish, dies after this Bill has passed; has he the right, based upon the ecclesiastical parish, to be buried in the parish churchyard, or, in other words, is the ecclesiastical parish maintained as well as the civil parish after this Bill has become law? I do not suppose these cases are very common, and I do not suppose, when they do occur, there is likely to be a dispute, but there may be a dispute, as it is a cantankerous world, and the amount of feeling they give rise to when they do occur, and the extreme bitterness they cause, is out of all proportion to the importance of the case. I think it should be made absolutely clear whether the parishioner is the civil parishioner or the ecclesiastical parishioner. The second question which has been put in the course of the Debate, and to which again no answer has been vouchsafed, is when a member of the Church of England dies, is he to have the right to the English burial service or not? He undoubtedly has, of course, the right to be buried in the parish churchyard. That he shares with Nonconformists and everybody who lives in the parish. He has got other rights than those now; he has got the right, as I understand, to require the incumbent to read the burial service. Is that right to go on? I think that is a question really again which ought to be settled. I quite admit that the cases where there would be a dispute are likely to be very few, and I hope so, but how unfortunate it would be if, through our lax legislative methods, we left the question undetermined.

    The third question as to which I would like to be informed is one which has also been put in the course of this Debate. I gather, and it has not been contradicted by the Home Secretary, that every parishioner has the right to be buried in the churchyard so long as there is room. I gather, when there is no room in the churchyard there is machinery which compels the churchyard to be extended, and I gather that when it is so extended there is machinery which requires the bishop to consecrate the added ground. All those things are now in existence, and, putting all those things together, it is clear that every parishioner who desires has this right to be buried in consecrated ground in every parish in Wales. Are you, or are you not, interfering with that machinery? Do you, or do you not, retain your power of requiring the proper ecclesiastical authority to consecrate any additional ground that may become necessary to an existing burial ground? If you are keeping in operation that part of the machinery, you are throwing upon the officials of the Disestablished Church duties which you could not throw upon any member of a Nonconformist church, and you are pro tantokeeping the Church Established so far as these duties are concerned. If, on the other hand, you are not doing that, I do not know that any bishop is likely to refuse to consecrate ground actually required for the extension of a graveyard, but you are altering the rights of the members of the Church of England. You are depriving such members of a right which they now possess, namely, the right of being buried in consecrated ground. These are three quite specific questions. I do not for a moment suggest that any one of them is likely often to be raised, but let us frame the Bill without any loophole for those most unhappy controversies which have occasionally arisen in the past—I do not say through whose fault—in connection with the last rites of the dead, and which from the very fact that they have arisen at that particular moment have produced feelings of impassioned resentment on the one side or the other, the recurrence of which it is our business if we can to prevent.

    The questions put by the right hon. Gentlemen deal with difficulties which exist mainly because he has invented, quite innocently, duties with regard to the Church which the Church does not possess at the present time. He put the question: Will a bishop, after this Bill is passed, be compelled to consecrate ground in the event of an extension of a churchyard? I am not aware that a bishop is compelled to consecrate ground now. [An HON. MEMBER: "Certainly."] The only compulsion that exists now is that a burial authority which refuses to allow any part of its ground to be con secrated can be compelled to consecrate a certain portion, but there is no power to compel a bishop to consecrate the ground. Of course, it is quite obvious that the exercise of such a power would never be needed. The right hon. Gentle man also said that the duty now exists for a clergyman of the Church of England to read the burial service over a member of the Church of England who is buried in unconsecrated ground—

    And whose legal representatives desire that he should be buried according to the rites and ceremonies of the Church of England. That is quite true.

    I think the right hon. Gentleman somewhat understates the right. It extends to everyone who has the right of Christian burial.

    I am dealing with the right hon. Gentleman's question. Under the Act of 1880—

    As regards the right to burial according to the particular rites and ceremonies which the representatives of a deceased person may require, that right depends on the Act of 1880. According to the common law every person has a right to be buried with a religious ceremony. That religious ceremony under the common law will be the religious ceremony of the Church of England and under the Act of 1880, the legal representatives of any deceased person have the right to ask and to obtain the services of a clergyman of the particular denomination that they require. The right hon. Gentleman put to me this point, which appears on the face of it to be an extremely good one. The legal representatives of a deceased member of the Church of England can require the services of a parish clergyman for the purpose of reading the burial service over the grave. Will a member of the Church of England or anybody else have the right to demand such services of a clergyman of the Church of England when the Church is Disestablished? That would appear, as the right hon. Gentleman said, to throw a duty upon the clergyman of the Disestablished Church which does not equally attach to the minister of any other free Church. Whether that duty will or will not exist in the case of a clergyman of the Disestablished Church is a question of the construction of ecclesiastical law. Hereafter ecclesiastical law will not exist as law in Wales. Supposing the governing body of the Disestablished Church hereafter determine as a rule of that Church that the whole ecclesiastical law shall continue, and that the clergymen of the Disestablished Church shall be bound to read the Church of England Service over the grave of any deceased person whose legal representatives ask for it, then the clergy will be bound to do so, but they will be bound to do so by the free will of the governing body of their own Church. If, on the other hand, the governing body of the Disestablished Church declare that that part of ecclesiastical law, not only shall no longer operate as law in Wales, but shall not be the subject of law by contractual arrangement between the members of the Church, then the clergy of the Church will not be at all bound; they will be as free as the ministers of any other free Church to read the service or not, as they please. The other point put by the right hon. Gentleman was a very ingenious one with regard to the parish. Who is a parishioner? The point was raised also by the Noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil). This Bill does not touch the existence of parishes.

    Is the right hon. Gentleman referring to civil parishes or to ecclesiastical parishes?

    Ecclesiastical parishes. The Noble Lord's argument is that an ecclesiastical parish is the creature of ecclesiastical law. Ecclesiastical law is abolished as law under this Bill. Therefore, with the abolition of ecclesiastical law as law necessarily goes the abolition of the ecclesiastical parish. That does not follow at all. The Noble Lord might as well say that a bishop, whom we know as a bishop in Wales, exists as a product of ecclesiastical law. This Bill abolishes ecclesiastical law as law; therefore, the bishop is abolished.

    What I mean is, abolished from a legal point of view. The bishop as bishop will have no legal rights under this Bill, and the members of a parish as a parish will have no legal right or legal privileges.

    A parish as a parish has no rights or legal privileges now. It is a geographical area, and the geographical area will remain untouched by this Bill. The parishioners will be, presumably, the inhabitants of the parish. The inhabitants of the parish are the inhabitants of a geographical area, and this Bill does not touch those geographical areas, which, as a matter of fact, at this moment are historic. The question is asked. In whom does the right now lie to be buried in the parish churchyard? Does it lie in the parishioner of the ecclesiastical parish or in the parishioner of the civil parish? The short answer is that the right vests in the parishioner of the ecclesiastical parish. In the case of an ecclesiastical parish which is divided into two, I think always, certainly in most cases, the parishioners in the daughter parish retain the right to be buried in the parish churchyard of the mother parish. Whatever rights and duties, whatever difficulties there may be at this moment with regard to the distinction between ecclesiastical and civil parishes, those rights, difficulties, and duties will remain after this Bill is passed precisely as they are to-day. We do not create any new rights or new difficulties. All we say under this Sub-clause is that whatever those rights are at the date of Disestablishment, those rights in the parishioner to be buried in the churchyard shall remain. As I think we are all agreed that those rights ought to be retained, I would suggest that it would be desirable, if we could, to get to a general discussion on the next Sub-clause which raises the whole question.

    I think that the difficulty in regard to this matter is increased because we have not discussed the earlier part of this Clause. The Home Secretary will there see that existing powers and rights with respect to burial are saved only during the incumbency of an existing incumbent of an ecclesiastical parish. Will there not be a necessary inference from that that when the incumbency of an existing incumbent of an ecclesiastical parish comes to an end, these powers and rights with respect to burial will no longer be as they were before this Bill was passed? What we have been discussing really is not merely the right to burial per se.That is one thing. The Home Secretary says that the rights and powers with respect to burials as they were in the past will be preserved in the future. That is clearly wrong. As the Bill stands, those rights are only to be reserved in the future during existing incumbencies. On reading the Bill as it stands, I think that the legal effect of this Sub-section must be contrary to what the right hon. Gentleman has stated his view to be. Take, for instance, the question regarding the burial service. He is quite right when he says that when we talk about the right to the burial service we mean only that, under the existing law of the Ecclesiastical Courts, in the last resort where there is an excommunicate the clergyman does not fulfil his duty towards the parishioner by reading the burial service. So it will stand while the existing incumbency remains. But when the existing incumbency comes to an end there is a complete change. So far from the private rights of burial in that respect being maintained, they are absolutely altered. I think the Home Secretary is right when he says that in the future it will be a question of the new constitution what rights are given to a parishioner as regards the reading of the burial service. The position will be entirely different from what it is at the present moment, unless some Clause on that point is introduced in the new constitution. We cannot deal with that at present. But the Bill seems to say under this Sub-section that the existing private rights of burial which now exist shall be retained in the future; but under the preceding part of the Clause you abolish them except during the currency of an incumbency of an existing incumbent.

    Take the case of burial, which is an exceedingly important matter. Take such a question as fees, which we know can be different as between parishioners and non-parishioners. In none of these respects, if I follow this Act aright, will the existing rights of the parishioner be retained in any way whatever. All you retain to him in this Sub-section (2) is what I may call the bare right of burial. It is not desirable at all that that burial should be under conditions which are entirely divorced from the feelings of the representatives of those concerned. There are no guarantees as regards solemnity and quiet in the churchyard as exist at the present time. I ask the Home Secretary—I quite appreciate what he said upon this point; he recognises that point frankly—does he mean to reserve these rights or not, or does he mean to put parishioners and non-parishioners in a worse position in the future than now? As the Bill stands, the parishioner is certainly in a worse position. As regards the other point, as to whether the word "parishioner" has to apply to an ecclesiastical or a civil parishioner, I think that is a most difficult and complicated matter of law. It is certainly a question which ought to be made quite clear on the face of the Bill itself, so that it should be impossible that difficulties in connection with it should arise in the future.

    I think the contribution of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London was entitled to a more sympathetic reply from the Home Secretary than it has received. I mention that in no unkind spirit, for at the same time the point which he put before the Committee I must confess was passing through my mind very rapidly, and possibly through the minds of others. It is not an ingenious point for anyone in discussing a question of this kind to call attention to the boundaries, ecclesiastical or civil, of the parish, or to the position that the parishioner will be in in the Disestablished Church; what will be his boundary then or his particular rights? The question is alive now in this country under the Established Church of England. I remember the parish in which I was born. It is a parish which has been carved out of two others owing to the growth of population. There is no burial ground there. There is at present occasionally the unedifying spectacle in the shape of letters to the public Press by the rival vicars claiming that theirs is the parish church. This all centres upon the controversy really as to who shall conduct the funerals. The case is further complicated by the fact that neither before the new parish was carved or now, are any of the boundaries in the district at all coterminous with the civil parishes. The ecclesiastical parishes largely went by groups of population; the civil parish chiefly by natural boundary and a running stream. That is in a large measure how the civil boundaries have arisen; whereas the ecclesiastical boundaries were for the convenience of certain groups of people, and their proximity to the parish church or convenience of access to it. It does seem to me that we ought not to treat as a light matter the position of any of these people: whether or not they are members of the Church. It is not merely a question for what are now called the worshippers at the Church or of Nonconformists—whose position was so very well put by the Under-Secretary—but for Church people who may not now be active members.

    I will put some cases by way of illustration of what I mean. A new vicar comes who may be High or Low, and somewhat gradually—I hope in all cases when there is a change—a change takes place in the ritual. Consequently some of the people devotedly attached to that particular church give up the service and attend another, or go anywhere. One of the bishops dealing with this matter some time ago said, that if parishioners did not like the ritual they had the advantage of going to another church where it was different. That advice misses the point of this Clause, namely, the rights of the parishioners. There are many cases in Lancashire where the feeling between High and Low Church have been very strong, and in many cases where fairly large bodies of people have seceded or stayed away altogether upon a change of ritual. Sometimes they are lost to the Church. Sometimes they walk miles to a Church whose service they like better. In my youth I remember my father pointing out to mo on a Sunday morning people tramping miles to go to a particular parish, because of disturbances of the kind to which I have referred. I want to ask the House what is the position of these people when you come to consider their burial rights? They may, or may not, have been enrolled in the other parish. In nearly every case I venture to say the one thing which these people would cherish to their dying hour, and particularly at their dying hour, is the thought that, however much they have diverged from the particular ceremony in that Church, they will be buried with their fathers and grandfathers. I submit that to take a narrow view upon this point will cause pain and consternation in many a household where the people may not consider themselves religious, but at any rate want to know one thing: when they are laid aside it shall be by the grave of their mother or other dear, departed ones. Whether they are active members or not, or whether they are Nonconformists or not, surely we ought not to treat this matter in any way as a light matter. They should still have those same rights of burial in the ancient parish where lies the dust of their respected forefathers.

    One question I would like to ask before the Question is put, and that is as to the exact force of the word "existing." I do not want to press the Government for an answer, but I wish to call their attention to the matter. A right is a claim which an individual is capable of enforcing in a Court of Law. I know no other meaning that can be attached to it. The Bill only says "existing" rights. Is it quite certain that anyone who is not alive at the present time will have any rights under this Bill at all? They will not be rights exist- ing at the passing of this Act; they will be rights that will come into existence after the passing of this Act, namely, when the person is born after the passing of this Act. It appears to me to be a matter in which the word "existing" ought to be struck out.

    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    The hon. Member for Dudley (Sir A. Grimth-Boscawen) proposes to move to leave out Sub-section (3). I will accept that Amendment, which will give a rather broader discussion.

    I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (3).

    In most cases the burial ground of the parish is the churchyard, unless it has been closed. If it has been closed in most cases there will be a cemetery which probably will adjoin the Church. By Clause 8 we have already decided that all churchyards and burial grounds that are still open 'are to be transferred to the Welsh Commissioners, and by them subsequently to 'the local authority. But we on this side do protest very strongly against the proposal to transfer the churchyards actually adjoining the Church. There is a great deal of feeling about that. The churchyard adjoining the Church has always been regarded as "God's Acre," practically regarded as part of the Church, and there are all kinds of associations attaching to it. It is used now not merely for burials; it Is used very often for processions which may take place in connection with the Church services. The approach to the Church lies through it. We hold very strongly that it is a grave injustice and a thing likely to be much resented if this Bill gives power that the adjoining 'churchyard should be taken away from the Church. Let me point out to the Committee and the right hon. Gentleman— though I have no doubt he is aware of it— that in the case of the Irish Act whenever a burial ground adjoined a church it was left to the representative body; it was not taken away. We have said very often that we do not accept the Irish case as a precedent on all-fours; that it is far from it; but we do think, when you come to deal with a specific point like the one as to how you are to treat the burial grounds adjoining the church, the Irish case is a precedent. Let me quote the words used by Mr. Gladstone when he was dealing with this very point. He said:—
    "When the church was entirely surrounded by the burial ground it was impossible to separate the two, and that consideration appeared to have greater weight than the theoretical infringement of the abstract principle of religious liberty."
    He went on:—
    "The facts could not he got rid of, and it must be seen that they were not attended with practical grievance; while there would be a grievance to the Church authorities if they had not command of the site in case, for instance, of their requiring to rebuild and enlarge the church."
    It is quite easy to point out the many great inconveniences that will arise unless burial grounds adjoining the church belongs to the Church authorities. I have spoken of the approach. It is quite true that there are words in this Clause which compel the local authority to keep the roadway and the path in good repair, and secure to the church a right-of-way. We hold very strongly that rather more is wanted, and that the actual approach and the roadway to and from the churchyard ought to belong to the church itself. I do not see why that should not be the case. It may be used, not merely as the approach to the church, but also for processions and for functions of a really semi-religious nature. As to the question of repairing the church, we cannot find anything more inconvenient when the church is to be repaired: there will be scaffolding poles, and so on, upon land that does not belong to the Church authority! I do not quite know what the Government propose in relation to that, but whenever the Church authorities happen to be trying to repair the church they would be in the nature of trespassers. So far as I can judge, no provision whatever has been made to meet that point. It it quite true, when we come to the question of enlarging the church, that the Government have put an Amendment down, but it is a very remarkable one. It reads "thus:—

    "Where the use of part of the burial ground is required for the enlargement of the church, it may be so used in any case where it might lawfully have been so used, and subject to the like conditions and restrictions, as if this Act had not been passed, and the part so used shall thereupon vest in the representative body."

    What on earth does "may be so used" mean? Actually the freehold will have been vested in the local authority! Do you mean the Church to make good the trespass of using a bit of ground that belongs to another body, and after that has been done for this piece of the churchyard to be vested in the representative body?


    Apparently, by some sort of French leave, the Church authority are to suddenly come down and enlarge the church; they may even double it. They may throw out porches and erect considerable buildings; they may erect side aisles and vestries, but no provision is to be made made as to how that is to be done, and the Church authority are to come down and by French leave seize a piece of property to build on. I can imagine nothing more likely to cause trouble and friction than that, and it seems to me you are driven back to the only alternative and that alternative we were not permitted to discuss because it is already decided by Clause 8, Sub-section (1), paragraph (b)At all events, we may ask that first of all that the approach to the church should vest in the representative body, and, secondly, that a sufficient space round the church should vest in the representative body, which would enable them to repair the church and if necessary to enlarge the church at some future date. At any rate, all these questions can be raised upon the discussion of the Subsection.

    The Government, it seems to me, by taking away these adjoining churchyards, are taking steps that will cause more bitterness, ill-will and rancour than any other provision in the Bill. It is practically impossible to separate, as Mr. Gladstone said, the church from the churchyard in the minds of the people. The two things are taken together and looked upon with reverence. What is true of the approach to the church is true of the churchyard, which contains the remains of the ancestors of the parishioners, and it is to my mind because the churchyard? part of the church precincts that it should not be alienated from the Church body. If it was in order to do so, I should very much prefer to move that, notwithstanding anything that occurred under Clause 8, it should be lawful for the Welsh Commissioners, or rather the local authorities, to retransfer the adjoining churchyards back to the representative body. I do not know how far such an Amendment would be in order, but in any case I am called upon now to move the omission of this Sub-section. This Sub-section makes provision as to what it is in the adjoining churchyard that is to be transferred. I move this Amendment because I think it affords a good opportunity of discussing the whole policy of this part of the Bill. If the Government really mean what they say that they do not want to hurt the Church, and that they do not want to start all sorts of bitter memories, and if they do want to get rid of any bitterness this Bill may cause, they should be ready to meet us in a generous way in this matter, because nothing will rancour more in the minds of Welsh Churchmen than the alienating of the churchyards adjoining the churches.

    I do not understand that the hon. and gallant Member moves this Amendment with any desire at all that the Sub-section should be in fact omitted from the Bill, but in order to raise a discussion upon the policy of the Clause?

    The property of the churchyard adjoining the church having been vested in the public authority under Clause 8, this Sub-Clause mitigates the evil and does not increase it, and therefore I assume the hon. and gallant Gentleman does not desire that his Amendment in its present form should be carried?

    That is perfectly true, but this is the only way in which I could raise the question, inasmuch as Sub-section (1), paragraph (b), of Clause 8 was taken without discussion.

    Let us now see what is the origin of this Sub-clause. In the Bill introduced in 1885 there was a long Debate on the question of granting the graveyards to local authorities. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, who was then in charge of the Welsh Church Bill, promised in the course of the Debate that he would introduce Amendments in order to mitigate what was then described as a great hardship in connection with this particular Clause on the question of the churchyards which adjoin or surround the Church. This Sub-clause is introduced here in order to carry out the promise given by the then Home Secretary seventeen years ago, and we have even gone beyond the extent of his exact promise, because we have put down a further Amendment "which will enable the Church to extend the building where it is required and for that purpose to take back and to use part of the burial ground. I have looked back upon that Debate of 1905, and I am bound to say that having read it with some care we have in this Clause gone, I will not say to the full length of what was asked for in 1895, but very near it. I ask the Committee in fairness to observe what happened. We do carry out the promise given in 1905, and we go beyond it and we introduce a new Amendment giving the Church power to get back part of the churchyard.

    And we have done it to the fullest, and what is the result? The hon. and gallant Gentleman gets up amidst the applause of his Friends and complains of this Amendment. I will not press this Amendment or Sub-clause, although I recognise that he does not wish me to drop it. The only point we have to consider is are we really acting fairly and doing justice between the parties? Where the churchyard adjoins the church all the parishioners of every denomination have certain rights in the churchyard. The only question we have to decide in principle is, Who ought to be the custodians of these rights? Are the custodians of these rights to be in future an irresponsible body, the governing body of the Church of England, or should the custodians be some public body? We have decided that the parishioners have substantial rights to the graveyard, and it naturally follows that those to whom the safeguarding of these rights should be committed should be a public authority. Having agreed upon that in principle, and I should think it cannot be disputed, what does the Church suffer? How do we meet its difficulty? If the churchyard is vested in the public authority not very sympathetic to the Church, perhaps the Church services might be disturbed. Immediately we put in a proviso safeguarding against any disturbance. Perhaps the public authority may not keep the right-of-way open. Immediately we put in protection for the right-of-way. We secure access for the members of the Church; we secure quiet and peace in the conduct of the Church services. What grievances do they suffer? We are told there is the sentimental grievance of the Churchman who wishes to retain his freehold of the churchyard in which his ancestors are buried. So are the ancestors of the Nonconformists. Their ancestors are buried there as well as the Churchmen's, and they desire equally strongly to retain public rights which they share over the churchyard. If we are agreed that the proper custodian of public right is to be a public authority, can we do more than give the Church the security which we give under this Sub-clause? By the protection against all these risks, and the preservation of what I may call the amenities of the Church we think we have secured these amenities, and having done that, I submit we have done all that can be fairly asked of us.

    The right hon. Gentleman seemed as if he really regarded my hon. and gallant Friend's speech and the moving of this Amendment as a grievance in the year 1913, I suppose against the present Prime Minister, who was Home Secretary in 1895. That is a very unique effort on the part of the right hon. Gentleman. He says that we have agreed that the churchyard should be vested in a public authority, but we have had no chance of agreeing; we have not even had a chance of discussing it at all. The right hon. Gentleman talks as if the vesting of the churchyards had been arrived at after careful consideration and Debate of all the circumstances affecting the case. There was no Debate. When he said we agreed he meant that he and his draftsmen agreed. It was not decided by the House; there was no Debate and no discussion, and although it is quite true that Clause 8 is embodied in the Bill no human being could say that the results of the joint efforts of the framers of the Bill and the Committee are embodied in the Bill. We never discussed the question of what body the churchyard should be vested in. Mr. Gladstone in the views and action he took in dealing with the Irish Church, shows the value he attached to sentiment existing in connection with the churchyards, and shows he felt that people were really touched, and touched to the quick, upon that question. The churchyard in many respects is almost part of the church, and it should not be violently taken away. I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman in saying that the Nonconformists or those who do not belong to the Church not only have a legal right, but have what I may call a senti- mental right to be buried in the churchyard. Their sentiments are as sacred and ought to be as carefully considered as the sentiments of Churchmen in this matter. I draw no distinction between Churchmen and non-Churchmen in all these matters of burial in the ancient and traditional burial grounds. I fully admit that everything a Churchman feels a Nonconformist may well feel in connection with the graves of his forefathers, and may desire as much to be laid at rest by them as any man who is a member of the Church. But while I admit that would fail, I think you cannot get away from the fact that those to whom the churchyard belongs will suffer a real loss. Do not deceive yourselves on that point; it was so felt by Mr. Gladstone in dealing with the Irish Church, and assuredly the sentiments of members of the English Church in Wales are not different from those of the members of the Irish Church across the Channel. Therefore, I think the Home Secretary has done much less than justice in his speech just now to the legitimate feelings of the Church in Wales. I agree that so far the right hon. Gentleman is justified in saying that this Sub-clause is a genuine attempt to meet the grievance, but he starts with the illegitimate premise that the House has agreed to the principle of vesting the burial ground in a non-ecclesiastical body. I do not think we have done anything of the kind. That principle, however, has been embodied in the Bill.

    The right hon. Gentleman has tried to take advantage of the known methods of the Closure, and he has been reproaching us on this side in regard to this point. I wish to point out that we have never had an opportunity of discussing this matter. The right hon. Gentleman says this sub-clause is intended to mitigate the difficulty. I go further and say that, in my opinion, this is a great and invaluable safeguard to the Church, and if you are to vest these graveyards in an alien body it is absolutely necessary to bring forward a Sub-section of this kind. I hope this arrangement will work without any friction between the public authority and the ecclesiastical authority. If there is no feeling, and they work in harmony, this arrangement, in ninety-nine cases out of one hundred, will produce no great or substantial grievance. On the other hand, I am afraid if they do not work in harmony, and if unfortunately ecclesiastical differences are brought into the relations between the public authority and the Church authority, I am afraid you will have great difficulty and undoubtedly a great amount of friction. There is one point which, I think, the right hon. Gentleman will be ready to admit. It is provided that if the church is to be extended part of the burial ground may be taken for that purpose. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has made any provision for such interference with the burial ground as would be necessary if extensive repairs are to be undertaken in connection with the existing buildings. That is something which is more likely to occur than the extension of the buildings. That is something which is almost sure to occur from time to time, and I shall be glad if the right hon. Gentleman and his draftsman will consider whether they could not introduce some words which would make it impossible for a hostile public authority to be obstructive if the ecclesiastical authority desired to have reasonable access to the burial ground and such privileges as are necessary in the way of using parts of the burial ground for carrying out such work as is necessary for the proper repair of the Church buildings. I think this suggestion is entirely in conformity with the spirit of the Subsection, and although I regret the whole framework of the Bill, as we are permitting this to be done by the public authority, all we can do is to ask them to mitigate the hardship upon the Church as far as possible, and I think I have suggested a practical step with which I am sure the Government is quite sympathetic, and, if they adopt it, I think it will be a useful and a substantial improvement.

    I wish to support the appeal which has been made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, and I urge upon the Government the necessity of making this point more clear if it can be done. I would like to point out another way in which the churchyard might be dealt with in a sympathetic way. In the case of my own parish church we have had to cut down some trees which were obscuring the light of the chancel and the vestry windows. That is just one of those things which, if there was any difficulty, there would have to be correspondence, and meetings held and probably deputations, and those are things which might lead to friction. I should have thought that the provision in the Sub-section which gives the right of access to all persons who may resort to the churchyard for the purpose of repairing the church would have included the right to convey materials, erect scaffolding, and so on. Perhaps there is some doubt on this point, but I appeal to the Government that it should be put beyond all doubt. With regard to the point raised by the hon. and gallant Member who moved this Amendment (Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen), I do not follow his argument in regard to the actual possession or ownership of the path. Ownership of the path carries with it the cost of repairs. If the authorities of the burial ground had to engage in alterations dealing with the boundary walls they might cut off a path, and it would be unpleasant if a path leading to a church was cut off by the burial ground authority and the bill sent in to the churchwardens. The only difference is that an additional cost would be put upon the churchwardens if they owned a path which would not fall upon them if they had a complete right-of-way. That right-of-way must not mean simply walking into the church and out of it. There is, for example, the Sunday school procession, which is a common feature of the anniversaries in the North of England. It certainly would be contrary to all our wishes if the church had not the right to hold those processions, not only through the churchyard, but from one boundary of the churchyard to the other, for they very often pass the graves of some well-known parishioners. This is not merely an excellent exercise for those who take part in it, but many parents watch these processions in which their own children, dressed in white, on Sundays take part. I think these processions are a very excellent feature, and if I thought that under this Bill they would not continue to have that right, I should take a very different view.

    Then let us put it beyond all doubt. In regard to the right of passage through these burial grounds, let us see that the body representing the community as custodians for the common good do not take away from those who worship in the church the right to conduct their services in the same manner as they had hitherto done.

    The hon. Member who has just sat down has pointed out a certain number of cases which ought to be provided for in this Bill. I want to look at this Clause as it stands and to see whether it accomplishes the object which the Home Secretary says it purports to do. Let us take Sub-clause (b), which provides that—

    "no funeral shall be allowed to take place during the usual time of the ordinary services in the church, and such other regulations shall be made as may be found necessary to prevent any interference by persons attending funerals with the clergy or congregation attending the Church."

    Who are those regulations going to be made by? The Sub-section (3) commences with the words:—

    "Where any burial ground which, under this Act, is transferred to any authority."

    If you look at Clause 8, Sub-section (2), you will find that the authorities to which they are going to be transferred are not always the same persons. Obviously the intention is that quiet should be secured during the progress of a funeral. Who is going to make those regulations? Are they going to be made by the incumbent and the person who has the custody of the church, or the person who is probably conducting the funeral? Is it to be the person who is in charge during the time the funeral is being conducted? It would probably be for the convenience of those attending the funeral that regulation should be made, but if those regulations are to be made by the public authority and not by the incumbent, you really fail to meet the difficulty which you set out to meet. It is quite clear that some words must be put into Sub-section (b)in order to specify the authority which has to make these regulations. They ought to be made either by the incumbent or the public authority in concert with the incumbent. Let me now turn to paragraph (c) which provides:—

    "Any road or path through the burial ground to the church shall be kept in good and sufficient repair."

    Who by? Obviously, this is a question of expense. An hon. Member opposite indicated that he took a somewhat different view of this Clause, but I thought the intention was that the public authority should keep that path in repair and enable the persons to have lawful access to pass and re-pass through the churchyard. The hon. Member for Pontefract put the case of repairs being effected to the church which would probably cut up the path and place an unfair burden upon the authority owning the burial ground. That is the way it presented itself to the hon. Member's mind. To my mind it occurs that inasmuch as the public authority is the body to whom the burial ground was transferred, they ought to keep the path in repair, and ought to allow free access over it. The fact that these two different views have presented themselves to hon. Members of this House shows that the Clause is quite ineffective for the purpose intended, and you must put in not merely a provision that the road should be kept in good and sufficient repair, but you must put in what you mean, and provide that some person has got to undertake the liability to keep the path in repair. You must provide clearly upon whom the liability and expense of keeping this road in repair is intended to fall. I think on those points we are entitled to have not only a clear answer, but words ought to be inserted which will be effective for carrying out the benevolent purpose for which the Home Secretary told us this provision was put in the Bill. Amendments ought to be put in at once, or, at any rate, the Under-Secretary ought to undertake to put in Amendments to clear up these points. Otherwise both Sub-sections (b) and (c) are really of no use at all, and do not meet the point, which I quite understand the Government desire to meet by putting in this Clause. It is a badly drafted Clause, and I only rose for the purpose of stating those points, because I am sure I shall have a sympathetic answer from the Under-Secretary.

    I will answer the questions put to me by the hon. and learned Member. First of all, the words in Sub-section (b) follow the precedent of the Irish Act. There is no doubt that what we want is that the regulations should be made by the burial authority, and, if there is any doubt about that, it will be made clear.

    With regard to paragraph (c)—

    "any road or path through the burial ground to the church shall be kept in good and sufficient repair"—

    that, again, is by the burial authority. I quite appreciate the point of the hon. and learned Member that it is left rather in doubt.

    I quite appreciate it is open to discussion, and that it ought to be made clear. If one reads Sub-section (3), he will see that prima facie the burial authority ought to repair.

    If there is any doubt about it, it should be put right. With regard to the point of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Mr. Balfour), it is quite obvious, if there is a process of repair going on in the church, or to the church buildings, the representatives of the church should have free access for that purpose. We propose to amend the Amendment standing in the name of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, so that it shall read:

    "(d) Where the use of part of the burial ground is required for the enlargement or repair of the church, it may be so used in any case where it might lawfully have been so used, and subject to the like conditions and restrictions, as if this Act had not been passed, and the part so used for the enlargement of shall thereupon vest in the representative body."

    I think that meets it, but, if there is any doubt, we can put it right on the Report stage. That is the Amendment we suggest, but, if there are any other words which will more favourably carry out the intention, we shall, of course, be prepared to consider them.

    I quite recognise the spirit in which the Under-Secretary has suggested this Amendment, but I want to call the attention of the Committee to the general position, and to see what has been done by the Government both in reference to the Bill as it stands and this proposed Amendment and the alteration to it. The Home Secretary spoke as if Churchmen, in seeking to retain the churchyard as at present, were in some way seeking to trespass upon the rights of other denominations than their own. I repudiate that at once. It has been expressed very often, but I wish to express it again to make it quite clear: All the rights of all parishioners, whether Nonconformists or Churchmen, ought to be preserved, and preserved to the fullest extent possible. I think there is a difficulty in a Disestablishment Bill in this respect. Of course, whereas all non-parishioners have rights so long as we have an Established Church, when you reduce that Church from art Established Church to a voluntary corporation, then it is hardly possible to give the same wide range of rights as the Church now offers to every citizen, whether he accepts them or not. I intensely regret Disestablishment, because it deprives citizens of a religious right they have now, and which I should like to preserve under all conditions. That is a necessary evidence, and I think one of the worst evidences, of Disestablishment. You deprive people of religious rights they have at the present time. Starting from that point of view, we do not desire in any way to interfere with the right of Nonconformists in the churchyard. It is not only a right of burial, but since 1880 they have also had the right of having their own services as regards burial. At the present time there is no right which the Nonconformist could desire in a churchyard to put himself on an equality with the Churchman which he-has not got already. There being in my View no ground for any feeling of that kind, it appears to me one of the worst-possible features of this Bill to introduce a different body as regards the control of 'the adjoining churchyard from the body in whom you invest the control of the Church itself. I put down an Amendment to deal with that point, and I think it would have been perfectly in order. I suggested that although the adjoining churchyard might be vested in the public authority, yet you might give the control to the representative body. There is nothing inconsistent as regards matters of this kind—in having the property in one body and the control in another. That is constantly done as regards a great many ecclesiastical rights.

    I should like to emphasise the point of view I am putting a little further. I think the discussion has shown no safeguards that can be devised can do away with the almost necessary friction and trouble which, so long as human nature is as it is-now, will arise by the separation of the adjoining churchyard and the church. The Home Secretary talked about the sentimental view of Churchmen. I agree it is an extraordinarily strong sentimental View of Churchmen, but it is one they are thoroughly entitled to hold, both on historical and on religious grounds. It is hot a mere matter of sentiment. It is a sentiment which has its foundation in the history and traditions of this country, which are so nearly entwined with the history and traditions of our great National Church. That being so, in every line, and even as regards the proposed Amendment, you will have possible sources of trouble and friction, because you are starting from a wrong principle. Once try to separate the adjoining churchyard and the church and you cannot by any provision so cover the position as to remove an unfortunate, an unhappy, and an almost certain source of friction and trouble. Why cannot you leave what we call "God's Acre" attached to our Churches under the same conditions and control as at the present time? I have not heard a single argument against that position, nor do I understand how the Home Secretary or anyone on the opposite side of the House has dealt with the view of Mr. Gladstone at the time of the Irish Church Bill. Mr. Gladstone saw that to separate a church and an adjoining churchyard would necessarily lead to friction and trouble, and wherever the churchyard and the church are adjoining in Ireland, you leave the churchyard ill the same control as the church.

    The church and the churchyard in our country districts in England and in Wales, stand as the symbol of our religious life, and as the centre of our religious and parish life. Just conceive the position if you get friction between the people interested in the church and the people interested in the churchyard. You would create friction and trouble in connection with funerals and burials. Just at the very time when every man of whatever denomination would desire to eliminate the possibility of friction and trouble, you deliberately set to work in order to cause trouble. I should have thought that Nonconformists upon this matter would have taken the same view as Churchmen. They are at least as interested as we are in the maintenance o£ the sacred solemnity of our burial services and of our churchyards. I would appeal to them just as much as I would to Churchmen, that the proper solution here is not the one proposed in the Bill, but that you should leave the adjoining churchyard and the church under the same control and authority. I hold so strongly that the whole purpose of this Sub-section (3) is wrong that I no doubt approach the suggested limitations introduced by the Government in a spirit of suspicion. I quite agree I approach them with a bias from that point of view, but directly we look at them and examine them, we see they are wholly insufficient to carry out the purpose which I understand it is the view of the Home Secretary and the Under-Secretary we ought to carry out. It is as though you compulsorily took away from a man the garden round his house and only allowed him to approach his own house under certain specified conditions. It would be almost impossible to give him the same liberty as he had without interference by any series of Clauses to cover all the conditions which might possibly arise.

    I am very glad indeed the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) has raised the question of processions in the churchyard. You may have processions in connection with services such as harvest festivals, in connection with children's services, or in connection with our actual funeral services. Certainly whenever I have attended a funeral service the ecclesiastical authorities have met the coffin not at the church door but at the entrance to the churchyard. Not one single one of those old rites of much sacred import and value could be carried out as a right if this Bill was passed in its present form, nor do I believe you could amend the Bill. You cannot foresee everything you want as regards these religious ceremonies which take place partly in the churchyard and partly in the church. Under this Bill as it stands those processions could be negatived. There is not a word here which allows processions of any kind. All that is allowed is a bare right of access to the church. Of course, it would be-unthinkable to leave the church with no right of access to it. I do not profess to have any gratitude for what could not be refused. To assume where you have a church in a churchyard that no one could approach it is so impossible that you really need not consider a proposition of that kind. Yet when we come to the suggested limitations we really find nothing more than that. For instance, under the very first portion of this Sub-section (3) the Home Secretary says the burial ground shall be held subject to a right-of-way of the representative body, the clergy, the congregation attending the church, and such other persons as may resort thereto for the purpose of Divine worship.

    In my view a church ought always to be open. Everyone ought to be able to have access to a church. Under the Clause as it stands, you could close the gateway and prevent the ordinary Church- man going to church for what I may call private service. It is quite clear that no lawyer would say that; on the contrary, this would not enable the representative body to assert that the gateway, as regards access to the church should be open at all times, whether wanted for public purposes or not, or for any purpose. It is quite clear it does not govern cases of this kind. It does not govern cases like that mentioned by the hon. Member for Pontefract, and directly you have words of this kind introduced it is impossible to define the various relationships which arise as between the church and the churchyard. I should like to call the attention of the Under-Secretary of the Home Office to the Sub-section, which says that a funeral is not to be conducted in such a way as to interfere with the clergy and people attending the church for service. That is wholly inadequate. So far as this is concerned you might have all sorts of matters going on in the churchyard outside the church, seriously interfering with the service and with the congregation, and they are to have no protection at all. The position is limited here to the case of funerals so far as the churchyard is concerned, and the churchyard might be used for any purpose which the public authority liked. I think it is a monstrous thing that, as regards churches and the adjoining churchyards, Churchmen should not be protected so far as their services are concerned—that they should not be protected against what would be an insult by reason of what is going on in the churchyard outside. Yet under this provision there is no protection afforded except in the case of funerals.

    This Clause only deals with the main path through the burial ground of the church. But there are a large number of other paths in a burial ground which the church might want to use for processional or other purposes; yet it is suggested that they might be taken away altogether, or, if they are left, they are to be kept in repair at the expense of the church. The real truth is this: The Government are starting on a scheme which I consider to be iniquitous and unfair both to Nonconformists and to Churchmen. They are separating the control of the church from the adjoining churchyard. It is impossible in this suggested Clause to foresee all the difficulties and all the restrictions to which that will very naturally give rise. I hope that the hon. Member for Pontefract will join with us in voting against this Clause— that he will associate himself with the protest we are raising against the use of the churchyard being taken away from Churchmen, and allowing it to be used for other purposes quite inconsistent with their sacred views and their sacred service. The hon. and learned Under-Secretary has asked me to say a few words about his Amendment. In the Clause as it stands, I do not find that objections are met so far as repairs or enlargements are concerned. He says it is temporary and that any enlargement will be vested in the representative body. I want to ask him one or two-questions with regard to his proposed Amendment. What does he mean by the words "where it might lawfully have been so used, subject to like conditions and restrictions"? That is just one of those points where, unless we get a legal decision, there may be difficulty in the future. I want the Under-Secretary, if he will, to explain how the existing conditions can be met in the future without applying for a faculty. The essence of Disestablishment is that no faculty can be granted. Who is to decide as regards enlargement so as to make it lawful that there shall be that enlargement? The present authorities cannot decide; they will practically be dead; and there is no new authority set up to decide these things. Therefore, I want the hon. Gentleman to tell us what he considers will be the lawful body to decide these questions when the Ecclesiastical Courts have ceased to exist. I have drawn attention to the limitations because they appear to me to be inadequate. But my view goes much further. I think that this separation of the churchyard from the adjoining church is an insult both to Nonconformists and to Churchmen, and it is likely to have the worst results. I protest against this most iniquitous subdivision under this Dismemberment and Disestablishment Bill.

    Before we go to a Division I would like to ask if the Government can be persuaded to tell us why they insist upon taking the churchyards which are so situated. It does not seem to me in any sense necessary to the principle of the Bill, and it is certain, as hon. Members have pointed out, to create friction and disagreement among the local authorities. A local authority, if it is hostile, may seriously interfere with the ecclesiastical authority—with the representative body of the Church. It can make itself disagreeable in many petty, irritating ways, and that, I am sure, cannot be the object of the Front Bench opposite. The hon. Member for Pontefract has suggested one or two of the ways in which irritation may be caused; for instance, by cutting down trees, and matters such as that. The Amendment proposed by the Home Secretary, further amended by the suggestion of the Under-Secretary, meets our views as far as it goes. But it does not deal with such small matters as the cutting down of trees and other irritating actions. Cannot the Government frame some other Amendment which would deal with these circumstances, and which, at the same time, would make this Clause more workable? Before we go to a division on this Clause I should like the Government to state clearly why it is they think it necessary to take these churchyards adjoining the church. It was not thought necessary in the Irish Church Act, and surely, in a matter of this kind, we might take the parallel of that Act and proceed on similar lines. I hope that the Government will reconsider their position, because it is a matter which affects the sentiments and feelings of honest and sincere Churchmen. I cannot see what object they have in inflicting this irritation on Churchmen: what object they have in giving this power of annoyance to the local authorities, when a slight alteration in their Disendowment proposal would effect the object they have in view, and, at the same time, save all this difficulty. It would not interfere at all with the principle of their Bill. They may desire Disestablishment and Disendowment, and we may oppose it, but I do venture to point out that this is not a matter of principle, and therefore they might very well meet us in regard to it.

    I believe hon. Members opposite have expressed their desire to maintain the rights of parishioners in the churchyards. But directly this Bill passes there will be no parishioners; there will be no ecclesiastical parish at all; there may be a geographical division, and that geographical area may be retained, but, after the Bill has passed, the Church will no longer have an area attached to it, unless, indeed, the new Disestablished body chooses to re-establish the old boundaries, and, for the purposes of the congregation, adopt the old parish boundary. I repeat that, ecclesiastically, there will be no Established Church and no legal rights of parishioners, because there will be no parishioners to have any legal rights. Therefore, it seems to me that the proposal to take away the churchyards in this way is adding insult to injury. It is really trying to take away from the Church that which she has always had and which belongs to her; it is, in fact, robbing her not only of her money but of her churchyard in the supposed interests of people who do not exist. Remember, the parishioners are practically, as such, to be done away with; there will be no legal parishioners at all when this Bill has been passed into law. There is, therefore, no one who can have any legal right in the churchyard. If a non-ecclesiastical body provides a civil burial ground they will have their rights in it, but when the Church is Disestablished there can be no parishioners. The logical thing is that the churchyard surrounding the church should be kept under the control of the same body as the church itself.


    I want to put two questions, which I think of some interest. I should like the Under-Secretary, in the first place, to explain what will be the effect in the case of churchyards which are partly ancient churchyards and partly modern churchyards? There must be many cases in which churchyards have, at comparatively recent dates, been enlarged by private donations. I am quite aware that, under previous Clauses in the Bill, the representative body will be empowered to keep post 1662 benefactions, but in this particular case considerable inconvenience will arise. You may have a churchyard with some isolated part in the middle of it which has recently been given by a private benefactor. It will be the height of inconvenience to have one part under one jurisdiction, and some isolated part under another jurisdiction. A state of affairs like that might lead to considerable inconvenience and to friction. With reference to the Amendment which the Government has foreshadowed, the words are included, "That part of the burial ground which is required for the enlargement and repair of the church." Before we accept words of that kind we ought to know who is to decide whether an enlargement is required or not. Is it to be the burial board or the Church authority, or who? That is a matter of very great importance.

    With regard to what the last speaker has said, I take it that under the Bill the post-1662 part goes to the representative body, and the pre- 1662 part to the burial board. There may be difficulty in adjusting matters, but I will not go into that. With regard to the enlargement of the church, I do not think there can be any doubt about it that the burial authority has no concern in that; it is outside their jurisdiction, and it must be the representative body or the Synod, whichever has charge of the church, which must be the only body to determine whether there ought to be an enlargement. The hon. and learned Member for South Bucks (Sir A. Cripps) asked me a question about faculties. In Ireland faculties are constantly granted for the enlargement of churches. He is a Chancellor of a Diocese, and in the ordinary course applications will come to the Chancellor of the Diocese for the enlargement of the church, and if that were granted, in due course the enlargement would take place, and the burial authority would be under a certain obligation with regard to the enlargement under this Clause. With regard to the right of the parishioners to go to the church at all times, that is a matter with which I feel great sympathy myself. I submit to the hon. and learned Member that that is included in the words of the Clause at the present time. I pay a great deal of deference to the hon. and learned Member on these matters, but that is the submission I make to him, that the right of access to the Church for meditation and prayer is included in these words:—

    "and such other persons as may resort thereto for the purpose of Divine worship or of repairing the church, or for any other lawful purpose."

    If there be any doubt about that—I am sure it is a matter upon which both sides of the Committee will agree—it would be possible to put in such words as would make it absolutely certain if the hon. and learned Member, after my suggestion, still has doubts that the actual words of the Bill do not cover the point.

    On this question of churchyards I would remark that wherever the precedent of the Irish Church Act was in the slightest degree lenient, or mitigated the iniquity of Disendowment that precedent is invariably rejected by the Government in regard to the present Bill. For the life of me I cannot see what possible justification we have for this extraordinarily complicated and most unjust plan of confiscating the churchyards, and allowing Churchmen a right of way through their own churchyards to get to their own churches. Every claim the Church has to her Churches applies equally to her churchyards. The principles upon which hon. Gentlemen opposite have confiscated them are not principles of equity or justice. They merely confiscate what they want. They confiscate the Endowments because they have use for them; they do not confiscate the churches because they cannot use them; but they confiscate the churchyards because they can use them. I should like to point out to the Government how exceedingly hard they deal with the Church in this connection. They say to the Church, "You shall not have your Endowments because Nonconformists have no need for them," and they say to the Church, "You shall not have your churchyards because the Nonconformists do want them, and therefore they shall be confiscated." Taken either way the Church is to be robbed of her property. There are some words in paragraph (b) which have not yet been properly explained. What is meant by

    "the usual time of the ordinary services in the church."

    That appears to be an exceedingly vague phrase. Does it simply mean matins and evensong on Sundays; does it mean matins on week-days; does it mean the services of the Church on feast days? The times of Church services are determined by the incumbent alone. He has a perfect right to choose what time he pleases. What is the situation created by this paragraph? It means that no funeral shall be allowed to take place during the usual time of the ordinary services of the Church—that is to say, the authority who arranges at what time a funeral shall take place will apparently invariably have to consult the vicar or rector as to when they shall be allowed to have their funeral. That would be the only possible way of providing that the funeral should not clash with a service that may have been determined upon by the vicar, but of which the parish authority, not being composed of Churchmen, would have no knowledge or information. That appears to be an arrangement which is bound to lead to the maximum amount of friction.

    Here you have practically two authorities in the same place. You have the parish authority, which is given the management of the churchyard, and has power to decide when and where a funeral shall take place, but they will have to go to the vicar for leave as to the particular hour when that funeral shall take place. That only shows the inherent difficulty, the almost impossibility of putting any such scheme as this on paper. It is, of course, impossible that any such arrangement should work smoothly. It is as impossible for one body to manage the church and another body the churchyard as for one man to own his house and another man to own the garden. I submit that the whole purpose of this Clause and of the extraordinary devices to which the Government have had recourse in this Sub-section show the amount of friction they are laying up for Wales in the future. I deny absolutely the right of the parishioners to a churchyard of a Disestablished Church. I deny absolutely the right of individuals, who are not members of the Church once she has been Disestablished, to use the churchyard. The Church has every bit as good a claim to her churchyards as she has to her churches. They have been used by the Church for hundreds of years. They have been maintained by the Church; they are almost part of the building of the Church, and they are as sacred and as dear to Churchmen as the very church buildings themselves. It was for the reason that the churchyards were, as it were, part of the churches that they were left by Mr. Gladstone to the Church of Ireland, but they have been torn away and confiscated by this Government from the Church in Wales, not because the Church has not as good a claim to them as she has to the property which is left to her, but because Nonconformists think that the churchyards will be useful to them.

    The Noble Lord who has just sat down has laid down two propositions with regard to burial grounds. In the first place, he suggests that the reason they are taken from the Church in this case and were left in the case of Ireland is some malignant spirit which makes the Government avoid every leniency that was shown in the case of the Irish Church. It must be obvious to everyone that the case of burial grounds in Wales is very different from the case in Ireland. In Ireland a great body of the people were Roman Catholics, men who were not buried in the parish churchyard, as they are in Wales. In Wales, where dissent is of rather recent growth. Nonconformist parishioners have never abandoned 1heir claim to burial in the parish churchyard. It is a claim and a right they hold very dear, and to-day they have far more potential rights than the Noble Lord suggests. The Noble Lord speaks as if the churchyard were the freehold either of the incumbent or of the churchwardens, or of some Church body. It is nothing of the kind. The rights of the parishioners to the churchyard are rights of property, and they are rights of property they have had from time immemorial, and they belong to the whole of the parishioners, both Nonconformists and Churchmen. A quotation was read in the 1895 Debate by Sir Francis Lockwood from a distinguished relative of the Noble Lord, the late Lord Selborne, to the effect that the churchyard alone belonged to the clergyman and the rest of the ground belonged to the parishioners for the purpose of burial, so that as far as rights of property go, the parishioners have very real rights of property, and it is those rights which "we have to recognise in deciding who is to have control over the Disestablished Church. The question of the rights of the parishioners is distinctly a question of who shall be trustee and guardian of the churchyard, to which all the people have a right of access, and when the Church ceases to be, as it is now in fact, an agent of the Government in matters of this kind, when it ceases to hold the position of a State or Government Church, those powers and duties should be put into the hands of public bodies who will represent the parishioners, that is to say, all those who have a right in the property. There are in this Sub-section attempts made by the Government to meet objections which have been put forward, objections which are naturally felt by Churchmen, to anything which may possibly interfere with their immemorial rights to burial service in the churchyard. I suggest that the 'Government should not stick necessarily to any words put down here, but between this time and Report they should consider 'any suggestions which have been made, 'such as those about the right to silent prayer at all times. I do not sec why the words "at all times" should not be introduced into that paragraph. They might consider whether words might not be introduced to make this a more complete protection of all the amenities and rights and privileges which the Church has had hitherto compatible with the public guardianship of the rights of all the parishioners to be buried in that spot of land.

    I think the speech of the hon. Member is not perhaps altogether a revelation, because we knew it before; but is a distinct emphasis of the view which we have always held on this side that hon. Members opposite have entirely mistaken both the nature of the Establishment and also the nature of what "they are doing by this Bill. He laid claim to the rights of the parishioners to be buried in the churchyard, and I do not Suppose that anyone on this side of the House or anywhere else would dispute that right for a moment as long as the Church remains Established. A parishioner has a right to be buried in the churchyard because it is an Established Church in the same way that every parishioner has a right to the ministrations of the clergy of the Established Church if he chooses to ask for them These are rights which are inherent in the Establishment.

    My claim was a claim to a right to the property based on Lord Selborne's statement that the ground belonged to the parishioners.

    I do not think the hon. Member is entitled to take an individual judgment out of its context and to base upon it an argument which appears to us to be entirely without foundation. I do not think the right which was alluded to in that case was other than a right inherent to the parishioners by the Establishment. That to my mind is the whole point, and I fail to see that the hon Member has made out any case whatever for this right of the parishioners once you take the Establishment away. No one can pretend that the two things are on all fours, and it seems to me a monstrous injustice for hon. Members to take away the property of the Church and to keep that part which they want because of some imaginary right. They adhere to that part of the Establishment which they like, and they take away other parts which they do not think so convenient. One of the drawbacks of Disestablishment is that you are going to take away from parishioners a great many rights which they have hitherto had. That is a fundamental objection to the whole proposal, and when you get a Clause like this which brings up a particular right which you are going to take away, which in justice you ought to take away, it is no argument to say, "we are going to leave the right exactly the same under Disestablishment as it was under Establishment." Hon. Members may do it by force of strength, but it is no argument. It is not done on any grounds of justice or right, and if they choose to say, "whether you like it or not we are going to give the parishioners this right to be buried in the churchyard which belongs to the Church, and we are going to take the churchyard away from the Church for that purpose," we know where we are; but do not let hon. Members, in a spirit of what I can only describe as somewhat canting hypocrisy, pretend that they are reserving a right to the parishioners. Let them understand once for all that it is quite different under Disestablishment from what it is under Establishment. I should like to emphasise what the Noble Lord (Viscount Wolmer) said, with reference to paragraph (c) of this Sub-section, because it seems to me if any words could be drafted with the object of creating friction between the Church and other bodies, these words are they, and I cannot see how anyone can imagine that paragraph (c) can be carried out without the most intense friction occurring on all kinds of occasions. I do not know that I shall be considered uncharitable if I suggest that if the Bill passes the clergy of the Church in Wales will not feel particularly well disposed towards those who had so large a hand in depriving them of their rights and of their property, and I cannot help thinking that there will be certainly a tendency to friction, to say the least of it, and that sectarian bitterness, if it exists now, will certainly be very largely increased in the future. I do not think any Member representing the Government has yet told us what they mean by this paragraph. They have not answered the question of my Noble Friend as to what is meant by the words "during the usual time of the ordinary services of the church." Does it refer to matins only, to Sundays only, or to any special services which the vicar may choose to appoint?

    Before the discussion proceeds any further I ought to point out that the last three speakers have been referring to the rights of the parishioners. They were dealt with on the preceding Sub-section, and they do not really arise on Sub-section (3), which we are now discussing and which deals only with reservations for the protection of the users of the church.

    I do not think I shall be putting it too high if I say that everyone in this House entertains some fear that the result of vesting grave- yards in a local authority, while the representative body maintains the church, may result in friction. I think that view is very generally entertained. I am quite sure the view is felt that if by consideration now some of that friction can be done away with, we ought to consider the matter and take steps to lessen the friction. The Under-Secretary foreshadows an Amendment dealing with the case when the church desires to make repairs which I think fairly meets the situation, but a possible cause of friction was suggested by the hon. Member (Mr. Booth) to which the Under-Secretary has not thought fit to make any reference. The hon. Member raised quite an interesting and possibly a real and acute question, "Who is to have control over she graveyard from the upkeep point of view?" Take the question of the cutting down of trees. It is not difficult to imagine that there might be a very ornamental but somewhat overgrown tree which was the pride of the parish, but which might cause annoyance to those worshipping in the church by reason of the obstruction of light. What is to be done? Is there to be a strike in the parish? Is one section of the population going to advocate that the tree should be left in all its ancient glory, whilst those who worship in the church would very much rather see it pruned and reduced? That is a small point, but clearly it is one which may tend to cause friction. A question was addressed to the Under-Secretary by a Member on his own side as to who would have control of such a situation, and as it is a typical ease perhaps the Under-Secretary would deal with it.

    It is a very small point, but I take a higher view of the common sense of the representative body on the one side and the burial authority on the other. I do not know whether hon. Members are aware that the incumbent now has no right to cut down a tree. Under the Bill the burial authority will have the right, but I do not think it will be exercised in a wanton way to annoy Church people. That is taking too low a view of the future of the Church of England in Wales.

    I suggest that these specific points will be better raised by separate Amendments. Therefore I ask leave to withdraw.

    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    I beg to move, in Subsection (3), paragraph (a), to leave out the words "and the clergy and congregation attending the church, and such other persons as may resort thereto for the purpose of Divine worship, or of repairing the church, or for any other lawful purpose; and," and to insert instead thereof the words "and in all persons declared by them to be entitled to use the same on terms and conditions laid down by them."

    I think these later words would get over a great many of the difficulties we have to deal with. The Amendment would leave the representative body to determine matters with respect to the right of access, and the purposes for which the churchyard should be used. I understand that the desire expressed by the Under-Secretary is to give the fullest powers, whether for the purposes of Divine worship or of private worship and contemplation in the church. All these matters could be dealt with by the representative body if they had powers. They are the body in which the church itself is vested, and they would be the body to determine questions relating to the right of access to the churchyard and the church. These questions would be left in all respects in the absolute discretion of the representative body. In that way you would avoid the use of words which would eliminate forms of user which Nonconformists or others might desire.

    Although I thought we were in fair accord as to what was to be done, I do submit to the Committee that the words now proposed by the hon. and learned Gentleman are exceedingly wide. The paragraph would read:—

    "The burial ground shall be held subject to a right-of-way in the representative body, and in all persons declared by them to be entitled to use the same on terms and conditions laid down by them;…"
    The Government cannot accept these words. First of all the Amendment gives the churchyard to the representative body. Of that I make no complaint. Then it gives it to all persons declared by the representative body to be entitled to use it. I do not make any complaint about that. But when you say "on terms and conditions laid down by them," I submit that is going too far. I was rather impressed by a point in the hon. Gentleman's speech as to whether the words in the Clause as it stands cover the case of men and women going to church, not for public Divine worship, but for meditation and prayer. I intimated my desire to meet that case. In my view the words of the Clause cover that case. The hon. and learned Gentleman did not say whether he thought they did or not.

    The hon. and learned Gentleman takes a contrary view. Although I am resisting this Amendment, if he can propose any words to cover the specific case of persons using the church, not for public worship, but for private meditation, I will accept them. I cannot accept the Amendment in its present wide form.

    I am sorry the Under-Secretary cannot accept these wide words, as he calls them. He says he wishes to give free and generous access to the churchyard for all legitimate purposes under this Clause. We wish to know whether the words in the Clause are sufficiently wide to cover the use of the churchyard by persons going to the church not at the time of public worship, but for the purpose of private prayer. We ail sympathise with that, and the Under-Secretary wishes that to be included. If a little time were given, I am quite certain that a number of further cases would occur to us which would have the sympathy of hon. Members on both sides of the House, and which we should also wish to include. But the difficulty about putting in words for particular purposes is this: Every time you put in particular words they become words of limitation. If you specify the objects you are dealing with, the effect is that, having specifically included a certain number of cases, you by that course exclude a number of other cases. Therefore, what you want to do is to find some wide general words which will cover all the legitimate purposes you have in your mind.

    It seems to me that my hon. and learned Friend has discovered these words, and all it comes to is this: Are you going to trust the representative body? I think the Home Secretary does mean to trust that body. I think, looking to the terms of the Clause, his intention is to give as full rights as he possibly can to the representative body. The Under-Secretary says that these are very wide words, but they confer a power which will be used only by the representative body. You cannot suppose that the representative body would give freedom to persons to use this right-of-way except for proper purposes; or that they would lay down anything but right terms and conditions on which the user should be exercised. You come back to what is at the root of this Amendment, namely, confidence in the representative body. I do hope the Home Secretary will accept the Amendment. If you distrust the representative body, and the terms and conditions they will lay down, well and good; but that is not the gulf that divides us on the present occasion. The Under-Secretary has told the Committee in regard to paragraphs (b) and (c) that the idea is to trust the representative body. Then why not accept the words of the Amendment, which would do no harm at all. It does not matter how wide the words are if you trust the representative body, but if you distrust them, the Clause ought to be drawn more carefully than it has been. I say, that inasmuch as this Clause is intended to meet a real difficulty, and to generously meet the feelings of Churchmen, the Home Secretary should accept the Amendment. I hope that the explanation I have given may lead him to follow out his real purpose, namely, to give wide powers to a body which should be trusted.

    I hope the Home Secretary will accept the Amendment. I do not quite follow the objections of the Under-Secretary. He says he entirely agrees with the proposal to give this right-of-way to the representative body. He quite agrees also that it should be given to people authorised by the representative body. But when it comes to the representative body laying down the terms and conditions, he says the words are too wide. After the Bill passes, churchyards adjoining churches will be vested in the burial authority. We shall expect that the burial authority will make such conditions as appear to it right and proper with regard to the conduct, of funerals, and the use of the burial ground for the purpose of funerals. When it comes to the question of what is to be the user for church purposes, what oilier body can you have except the representative body? Why cannot you trust that body? After all, what we are asking is not that the representative body should interfere with the conditions under which funerals take place, but that the representative body should lay down the terms and conditions on which the churcyard is to be used for church purposes. We have discussed the matter of access to the Church for private prayer, but there is a point with respect to which I am not sure how far the Clause would apply, namely, the holding of processions. Surely that is a point of which the representative body is the best judge. I do not know what other judge you could have. The Amendment was brought forward on short notice, and I can understand that the Under Secretary has some difficulty in accepting it right away. I think that on consideration he will see that Church people ought to have the right of access to the churchyard for church purposes, whether for sermons, private prayer, processions, or other purposes that may occur as time goes on. The representative body should have power to judge in these matters. In the circumstances I earnestly hope that the Home Secretary will agree to the insertion of these words.

    I may point out before going into the other point that the concluding words of the Amendment are: "and upon terms and conditions to be laid down by the representative body." The hon. and learned Gentleman will remember that under the Bill the burial ground is to be vested in the burial authority. It will be admitted that it would be unreasonable to allow some other authority, which is not the burial authority, without any question of agreement with the burial authority, to settle the terms and conditions upon which the user of the burial ground is to be exercised. Upon reflection the hon. and learned Member will see that even upon his own limited application of the words this is not a reasonable proposition. I would like to remind him that the words which we have put into the Bill are precisely the words which occur in the Irish Act.

    The right hon. Gentleman will pardon me for reminding him that under the Irish Bill the churchyards adjoining the churches were handed over to the representative body.

    Yes. We are not dealing with the question whether or not they should vest in the Church body or the burial authorities. We are dealing with those which are to be vested in the burial authority.

    The point at issue at the moment is, What is to happen to those burial grounds which are to be vested in the burial authority? Upon what use and conditions is the right-of-way to be granted? The words of the Irish Act, which apply to the case of those burial grounds which were vested in the boards of guardians, are—

    "subject to a right-of-way in the said representative body, the clergy and congregation attending the church, and such other persons as may resort thereto for the purpose of Divine worship, or of repairing the church, or for any other lawful purpose."
    These are precisely the words which we have got here, and, upon those words being enacted, no trouble and no dispute and none of the difficulties which are suggested will ever take place.

    The whole argument of the other side is based upon some supposed difficulty which will arise between persons who want to go to church and the inhabitants of the surrounding district.

    How does it help us to show that in burial grounds which are in no sense attached to churches in Ireland no difficulty has arisen? The difficulty that will arise here is that in the case of churchyards attached to the church there will be persons who want to go to church over the churchyards, and to tell us about Ireland, where there are burial grounds in no sense attached to the church, is not at all to give us a case in point.

    I suppose it is very difficult for people who are looking at the matter from entirely different points of view to come to an agreement, but for the life of me I confess I do not see the force of the argument which has been addressed from the opposite side of the House.

    I am not talking about disused burial grounds, but as to whether there will be such disturbance in a churchyard as to interfere with the Divine worship, whether of a public or a private character; and, further, whether the right of access to the church is suffi- cient for all purposes under the words we use. The words, "terms and conditions," which have been mentioned by the hon. and learned Members opposite will limit the words in the Clause, and where there is a right of way they will only tend to a narrow use. They will deprive people who wish to reach the church of a right which they have to access for any other purpose, and I submit that the words will permit all possible right of access that any reasonable person can desire. It is primarily for the purpose of Divine worship or repairing the church, but also "for any lawful purpose." I cannot see any limitation in those words upon the right of access, and the preservation of that right which is now inherent in everybody, to go to the parish church for the purpose of worship, whether public or private.

    I really think it a pity that the Chancellor of the Duchy has not studied the question a little more closely before getting up to address the Committee, because his speech to-night, not for the first time in these Debates, displayed nothing except how thoroughly ill-informed he is about this Bill. It is manifest that the greater part of his speech had no value whatever as a contribution to the Debates. It was founded on a misconception of the proposal in this Amendment, which is trying to make the best of the exceedingly bad arrangement which the Government are setting up in this part of the Bill, and saying, as I understand, that the burial ground is to be for some purposes in the hands of the burial authority, and that, on the other hand, the Church is to have the user of the burial ground, so far as is necessary for due attendance in church, and for other religious purposes. We suggest that the only way to make that system, which is a very difficult one, work at all, is by giving the Church

    Division No. 532.]


    [6.55 p.m.

    Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)Barnes, G. N.Bryce, J. Annan
    Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)Barran, Sir J. (Hawick)Burns, Rt. Hon. John
    Adamson, WilliamBarton, W.Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas
    Addison, Dr. ChristopherBeck, Arthur CecilBuxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
    Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George)Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)
    Agnew, Sir GeorgeBentham, George JacksonByles, Sir William Pollard
    Ainsworth, John StirlingBethel, Sir J. H.Carr-Gomm, H. W.
    Alden, PercyBirrell, Rt. Hon AugustineCawley, Harold T. (Lanes., Heywood)
    Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)Black, Arthur W.Chapple, Dr. William Allen
    Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)Boland, John PiusClancy, John Joseph
    Arnold, SydneyBooth, Frederick HandelClough, William
    Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert HenryBowerman, C. W.Clynes, John R.
    Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A.Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)
    Baker, H. T. (Accrington)Brace, WilliamCollins, Stephen (Lambeth)
    Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)Brady, P. J.Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.
    Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)Brocklehurst, W. B.Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.
    Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)Brunner, J. F. L.Cotton, William Francis

    representative body complete control of the user of the churchyard for all purposes of right-of-way. You then divide the thing, not easily or simply, or in a workmanlike way, because that is not possible, but you divide it in the best way you can between the two authorities. As the Bill stands, the Church has no control of the user. For example, you might have two processions going, at the same moment, into the churchyard, to the scandal and annoyance of both parties. You must have some body which is to make regulations for settling these users, if there is to be a right-of-way to such other persons as may resort thereto for the purpose of Divine worship; and suppose it was held, which, of course, is doubtful, that a procession round the churchyard is for the purpose of Divine worship, then you might have different religious bodies using the churchyard at the same time with different processions; and, for the sake of decency and order, you must have some control. You must have it it in the hands of some body; why not the representative body, who are given the right-of-way up to a certain point? Surely it is most reasonable to accept the view of my hon. and learned Friend, and give the whole matter over to them. They are a responsible body and exceedingly unlikely to use their power in an unreasonable way. If you make that arrangement you do something to smooth matters between the two authorities you are setting cheek by jowl in the churchyard, and you diminish as far as possible the chances of any friction arising.

    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

    The Committee divided: Ayes, 302; Noes, 188.

    Crawshay-Williams, EliotJones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)Pringle, William M. R.
    Crooks, WilliamJones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)Radford, G. H.
    Crumley, PatrickJones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)Raffan, Peter Wilson
    Cullinan, JohnJones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry
    Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
    Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)Jones, W. S. Glyn (Stepney)Reddy, Michael
    Davies, E. William (Eifion)Joyce, MichaelRedmond, John E. (Waterford)
    Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)Keating, MatthewRedmond, William (Clare, E.)
    Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Kellaway, Frederick GeorgeRedmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)
    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire)Kennedy, Vincent PaulRendall, Athelstan
    Dawes, J. A.Kilbride, DenisRichardson, Albion (Peckham)
    De Forest, BaronKing, JosephRichardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
    Delany, WilliamLambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon,S.Molton)Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
    Denman, Hon. R. D.Lambert, Richard (Cricklade)Roberts, George H. (Norwich)
    Devlin, JosephLardner, James Carrige RusheRoberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)
    Dickinson, W. H.Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
    Dillon, JohnLawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
    Donelan, Captain A.Leach, CharlesRobinson, Sidney
    Doris, WilliamLevy, Sir MauriceRoch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
    Duffy, William J.Lewis, John HerbertRoche, Augustine (Louth)
    Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Lough, Rt. Hon. ThomasRoche, John (Galway, E.)
    Duncan, J. Hastings (Yerks, Otley)Lundon, T.Roe, Sir Thomas
    Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Lyell, Charles HenryRowlands, James
    Edwards, J. H. (Glamorgan, Mid)Lynch, A. A.Rowntree, Arnold
    Elverston, Sir HaroldMcGhee, RichardRunciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
    Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
    Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
    Essex, Sir Richard WalterMacpherson, James IanScanlan, Thomas
    Farrell, James PatrickMacVeagh, JeremiahSchwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.
    Fenwick, Rt. Hon. CharlesM'Callum, Sir John M.Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)
    Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas RobinsonMcKenna, Rt. Hon. ReginaldSeely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.
    Ffrench, PeterM'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lines., Spalding)Sheeny, David
    Field, WilliamManfield, HarrySherwell, Arthur James
    Fitzgibbon, JohnMarkham, Sir Arthur BasilShortt, Edward
    Flavin, Michael JosephMarks, Sir George CroydonSimon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook
    Gilhooly, JamesMartin, JosephSmith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)
    Gill, A. H.Mason, David M. (Coventry)Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
    Ginnell, LaurenceMasterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.Snowden, Philip
    Gladstone, W. G. C.Meagher, MichaelSpicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert
    Glanville, H. J.Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
    Goddard, Sir Daniel FordMillar, James DuncanStrauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
    Goldstone, FrankMolloy, MichaelSutherland, J. E.
    Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)Molteno, Percy AlportSutton, John E.
    Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)Mond, Sir Alfred M.Taylor, John W. (Durham)
    Greig, Colonel J. W.Morgan, George HayTaylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
    Grey. Rt. Hon. Sir EdwardMorrell, PhilipTaylor, Thomas (Bolton)
    Griffith, Ellis J.Morison, HectorTennant, Harold John
    Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)Morton, Alpheus CleophasThomas, James Henry
    Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)Muldoon, JohnThorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
    Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)Munro, R.Thorne, W. (West Ham)
    Hackett, J.Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.Toulmin, Sir George
    Hall, Frederick (Normanton)Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.Trevelyan, Charles Philips
    Hancock, J. G.Neilson, FrancisUre, Rt. Hon. Alexander
    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)Verney, Sir Harry
    Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)Nolan, JosephWadsworth, J.
    Hardie, J. KeirNorman, Sir HenryWalsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)
    Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)Norton, Captain Cecil W.Walters, Sir John Tudor
    Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)Nuttall, HarryWalton, Sir Joseph
    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
    Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
    Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire)O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Wardle, George J.
    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)O'Donnell, ThomasWaring, Walter
    Havelock-Allan, Sir HenryO'Dowd, JohnWarner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
    Hayden, John PatrickO'Grady, JamesWason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
    Hayward, EvanO'Kelly. Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)Watt, Henry A.
    Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.)O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)Webb, H.
    Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E.)O'Mailcy, WilliamWhite, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
    Helme, Sir Norval WatsonO'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)White, Patrick (Mcath, North)
    Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.)O'Shaughnessy, P. J.Whitehouse, John Howard
    Henry, Sir CharlesO'Shee, James JohnWhittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir T. P.
    Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)O'Sullivan, TimothyWhyte, A. F.
    Higham, John SharpOuthwaite, R. L.Wiles, Thomas
    Kinds, JohnPalmer, Godfrey MarkWilkie, Alexander
    Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.Parker, James (Halifax)Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
    Hodge, JohnPearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
    Hogge, James MylesPearce, William (Limehouse)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Holmes, Daniel TurnerPearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.Winfrey, Richard
    Holt, Richard DurningPease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)
    Hope, John Deans (Haddington)Philipps, Colonel Ivor (Southampton)Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)
    Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)Phillips, John (Longford, S.)Young, William (Perthshire, E.)
    Howard, Hon. GeoffreyPollard, Sir George H.Yoxall, Sir James Henry
    Hudson, WalterPonsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
    Hughes, S. L.Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir RufusPrice, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)
    Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea)Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)


    Agg-Gardner, James TynteGordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton]Newton, Harry Kottingham
    Amery, L. C. M. S.Colliding, Edward AlfredNicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
    Anstruther-Gray, Major William Grant, J. A.Nield, Herbert
    Archer-Shee, Major Martin Greene, W. R.Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.
    Ashley, Wilfrid W.Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
    Baird, John Lawrence Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S.Edmunds)Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
    Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)Parkes, Ebenezer
    Balcarres, Lord Hall, Fred (Dulwich)Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
    Baldwin, Stanley Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)Peel, Captain R. F.
    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond) Hambro, Angus ValdemarPerkins, Walter Frank
    Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)Peto, Basil Edward
    Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) Harris, Henry PercyPole-Carew, Sir R.
    Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Pretyman, Ernest George
    Barnston, Harry Helmsley, ViscountPryce-Jones, Col. E.
    Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc, E.)Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)Quilter, Sir William Eley C.
    Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)Hewins, William Albert SamuelRandies, Sir John S.
    Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh HicksHickman, Colonel Thomas E.Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
    Beckett, Hon. GervaseHill, Sir Clement L.Rees, Sir J. D.
    Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Hills, John WallerRoberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
    Bentinck, Lord Henry CavendishHill-Wood, SamuelRolleston, Sir John
    Beresford, Lord CharlesHoare, Samuel John GurneyRoyds, Edmund
    Bigland, AlfredHohler, Gerald FitzroySanders, Robert A.
    Bird, AlfredHope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)Sanderson, Lancelot
    Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. GriffithHope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)
    Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)Sassoon, Sir Philip
    Boyton, JamesHouston, Robert PatersonScott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)
    Bridgeman, William CliveHume-Williams, William EllisSmith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Waltor.)
    Burdett-Coutts, WilliamHunt, RowlandSmith, Harold (Warrington)
    Burn, Colonel C. R.Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk.Spear, Sir John Ward
    Butcher, John GeorgeIngleby, HolcombeStanler, Seville
    Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)
    Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)Jesset, Captain H. MStanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
    Campion, W. R,Joynson-Hicks, WilliamStaveley-Hill, Henry
    Carlile, Sir Edward HildredKebty-Fletcher, J. R.Stewart, Gershom
    Cassel, FelixKerr-Smiley, Peter KerrStrauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)
    Castlereagh, ViscountKerry, Earl ofSwift, Rigby
    Cator, JohnKimber, Sir HenrySykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)
    Cecil, Evelyn, (Aston Manor)Kinloch-Cooke, Sir ClementSykes, Mark (Hull, Central)
    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.)Lane-Fox, G. R.Talbot, Lord Edmund
    Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)Larmor, Sir J.Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)
    Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)
    Clay, Captain H. H. SpenderLawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)
    Clive, Captain Percy ArcherLee, Arthur HamiltonThynne, Lord Alexander
    Clyde, James AvonLewisham, ViscountTouche, George Alexander
    Courthope, George LoydLloyd, George AmbroseTryon, Captain George Clement
    Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)Tullibardine, Marquess of
    Crichton-Stuart, Lord NinlanLocker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)Valentia, Viscount
    Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)Lockwood, Rt. Hen. Lt.-Col. A. R.Walrond, Hon. Lionel
    Doughty, Sir GeorgeLowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
    Du Cros, Arthur PhilipLyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)Wheler, Granville C. H.
    Duke, Henry EdwardMacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeaghWhite, Major G. D. (Lanes, Southport)
    Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
    Faber, George D. (Clapham)Magnus, Sir PhilipWilloughby, Major Hon. Claud
    Falle, Bertram GodfrayMalcolm, IanWolmer, Viscount
    Fell, ArthurMallaby-Deeley, HarryWood, John (Stalybridge)
    Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.Mason, James F. (Windsor)Worthington-Evans, L.
    Fleming, ValentineMiddlemore, John ThrogmortonWright, Henry Fitzherbert
    Fletcher, John SamuelMildmay, Francis BinghamYate, Col. C. E.
    Forster, Henry WilliamMills, Hon. Charles ThomasYerburgh, Robert A.
    Gardner, ErnestMoore, WilliamYounger, Sir George
    Gastrell, Major W. HoughtonMorrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)
    Gibbs, G. A.Mount, William Arthur

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir A. Cripps and Mr. Pollock.

    Gilmour, Captain JohnNeville, Reginald J. N.
    Glazebrook, Captain Philip K.Newman, John R. P.

    It being after Seven of the clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 28th November, 1912, successively to put forthwith the Question on an Amendment proposed by the Government, of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at Seven of the clock at this day's Sitting.

    Government Amendment made: Insert at the end of Sub-section (3) the words,

    "( d) Where the use of part of the burial ground is required for the enlargement

    of the church, it may be so used in any case where it might lawfully have been so used, and subject to the like conditions and restrictions, as if this Act had not been passed, and the part so used shall thereupon vest in the representative body."—[ Mr. McKenna.]

    Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

    The Committee divided: Ayes, 306; Noes, 192.

    Division No. 533.]


    [7.6 p.m.

    Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)Fenwick, Rt. Hon. CharlesMacpherson, James lan
    Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas RobinsonMacVeagh, Jeremiah
    Adamson, WilliamFfrench, PeterM'Callum, Sir John M.
    Addison, Dr. ChristopherField, WilliamMcKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
    Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.Fitzgibhon, JohnM'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lines., Spalding)
    Agnew, Sir George WilliamFlavin, Michael JosephManfield, Harry
    Ainsworth, John StirlingGilhooly, JamesMarkham, Sir Arthur Basil
    Alden, PercyGill, A. H.Marks, Sir George Croydon
    Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)Ginnell, L.Martin, Joseph
    Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles p. (Stroud)Gladstone, W. G. C.Mason, David M. (Coventry)
    Arnold, SydneyGlanville, Harold JamesMasterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.
    Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert HenryGoddard, Sir Daniel FordMeagher, Michael
    Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A.Goldstone, FrankMeehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
    Baker, H. T. (Accrington)Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)Millar, James Duncan
    Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)Molloy, M.
    Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)Greig, Colonel J. W.Molteno, Percy Alport
    Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir EdwardMond, Sir Alfred Moritz
    Barnes, G. N.Griffiths, Ellis J.Morgan, George Hay
    Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs)Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)Morrell, Philip
    Barton, W.Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)Morison, Hector
    Beauchamp, Sir EdwardGwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
    Beck, Arthur CecilHackett, J.Muldoon, John
    Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.)Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)Munro, R.
    Bentham, G. J.Hancock, John GeorgeMunro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon R. C.
    Bethell, Sir J. H.Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)Murray, Captain Hon. A. C.
    Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineHarcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)Neilson, Francis
    Black, Arthur W.Hardie, J. KeirNicholson, Sir C. N. (Doncaster)
    Boland, John PiusHarmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)Nolan, Joseph
    Booth, Frederick HandelHarmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)Norman, Sir Henry
    Bowerman, C. W.Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)Norton, Captain Cecil W.
    Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)Nuttall, Harry
    Brace, WilliamHarvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
    Brady, P. J.Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
    Brocklehurst, W. B.Havelock-Allan, Sir HenryO'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
    Brunner, John F. L.Hayden, John PatrickO'Donnell, Thorn s
    Bryce, J. AnnanHayward, EvanO'Dowd, John
    Burke, E. HavilandHazleton, RichardO'Grady, James
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnHealy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E.)O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)
    Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasHelms, Sir Norval WatsonO'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)
    Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)O'Malley, William
    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)Henry Sir CharlesO'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
    Byles, Sir William PollardHerbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)O'Shaughnessy, P. J,
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Higham, John SharpO'Shee, James John
    Cawley, Harold T. (Lanes., Heywood)Hinds, JohnO'Sullivan, Timothy
    Chapple, Dr. William AllenHobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.Outhwaite, R. L.
    Clancy, John JosephHodge, JohnPalmer, Godfrey Mark
    Clough, WilliamHogge, James MylesParker, James (Halifax)
    Clynes, John R.Holmes, Daniel turnerPearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
    Collins, G. P. (Greenock)Holt, Richard DurningPearce, William (Limehouse)
    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Hope, John Deans (Haddington)Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.
    Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)
    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Howard, Hon, GeoffreyPhilipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)
    Cotton, William FrancisHudson, WalterPhillips, John (Longford, S.)
    Crawshay-Williams, EliotHughes, S. L.Pollard, Sir George H.
    Crooks, WilliamIsaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir RufusPonsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
    Crumley, PatrickJones, Rt. Hon. Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea)Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
    Cullinan, J.Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)
    Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)
    Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
    Davies, E. William (Eifion)Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe)Pringle, William M. R.
    Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)Radford, G. H.
    Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts., Stepney)Raffan, Peter Wilson
    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire)Joyce, MichaelRaphael, Sir Herbert H
    Dawes, James ArthurKeating, MatthewRea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
    Da Forest, BaronKellaway, Frederick GeorgeReddy, M.
    Delany, WilliamKennedy, Vincent PaulRedmond, John E. (Waterford)
    Denman, Hon. R. D.Kilbride, DenisRedmond, William (Clare, E.)
    Devlin, JosephLambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S.Molton)Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)
    Dickinson, W. H.Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)Rendall, Athelstan
    Dillon, JohnLardner, James Carrige RusheRichardson, Albion (Peckham)
    Donelan, Captain A.Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
    Doris, W.Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
    Duffy, William J.Leach, CharlesRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)
    Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Levy, Sir MauriceRoberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)
    Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)Lewis, John HerbertRobertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
    Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Lough, Rt. Hon. ThomasRobertson, John M. (Tyneside)
    Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan. Mid)Lundon, ThomasRobinson, Sidney
    Elverston, Sir HaroldLyell, Charles HenryRoch, Walter F.
    Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)Lynch, A. A.Roche, Augustine (Louth)
    Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)McGhee, RichardRoche, John (Galway, E.)
    Essex, Sir Richard WalterMacnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.Roe, Sir Thomas
    Farrell, James PatrickMacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)Rowlands, James

    Rowntree, ArnoldTaylor, John W. (Durham)Watt, Henry A.
    Runciman, Rt. Hon. WalterTaylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)Webb, H.
    Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
    Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)Tennant, Harold JohnWhite, Patrick (Meath, North)
    Scanlan, ThomasThomas, J. H.Whitehouse, John Howard
    Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
    Scott, A. MacCaltum (Glas. Bridgeton)Thorne, William (West Ham)Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
    Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.Toulmin, Sir GeorgeWiles, Thomas
    Sheehy, DavidTrevelyan, Charles PhilipsWilkie, Alexander
    Sherwell, Arthur JamesUre, Rt. Hon. AlexanderWilliams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
    Shortt, EdwardVerney, Sir HarryWilliams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John AllsebrookWadsworth, J.Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)Winfrey, Richard
    Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)Walters, Sir John TudorWood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)
    Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)Walton, Sir JosephYoung, Samuel (Cavan, East)
    Snowden, PhilipWard, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)Young, William (Perth, East)
    Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir AlbertWard, W. Dudley (Southampton)Yoxall, Sir James Henry
    Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)Wardle, George J.
    Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)Waring, Walter

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

    Sutherland, J. E.Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
    Sutton, John E.Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)


    Agg-Gardner, James TynteFletcher, John SamuelMalcolm, Ian
    Amery, L. C. M. S.Forster, Henry WilliamMallaby-Deeley, Harry
    Anstruther-Gray, Major WilliamGardner, ErnestMason, James F. (Windsor)
    Archer-Shee, Major MartinGastrell, Major W. H.Middlemore, John Throgmorton
    Ashley, W. W.Gibus, G. A.Mildmay, Francis Bingham
    Baird, J. L.Gilmour, Captain JohnMills, Hon. Charles Thomas
    Baker, Sir Randolph L. (Dorset, N.)Glazebrook, Capt. Philip K.Moore, William
    Balcarres, LordGordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)
    Baldwin, StanleyGoulding, Edward AlfredMount, William Arthur
    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City. Lond.)Grant, J. A.Neville, Reginald J. N.
    Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeGreene, W. R.Newman, John R. P.
    Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)Newton, Harry Kottingham
    Barlow, Montague (Sallord, South)Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S.Edmunds)Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
    Barnston, HarryGwynne. R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)Nield, Herbert
    Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.
    Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)Hall, Fred (Dulwich)Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
    Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh HicksHall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
    Beckett, Hon. GervaseHambro, Angus ValdemarParkes, Ebenezer
    Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
    Bentinck, Lord H. CavendishHarris, Henry PercyPeel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)
    Berestord, Lord C.Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Perkins, Walter F.
    Bigland, AlfredHelmsley, ViscountPeto, Basil Edward
    Bird, A.Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)Pole-Carew, Sir R.
    Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-Hickman, Colonel T. E.Pollock, Ernest Murray
    Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)Kill, Sir Clement L.Pretyman, Ernest George
    Boyton, JamesHills, John WallerPryce-Jones, Col. E.
    Bridgeman, W. CliveHill-Wood, SamuelQuilter, Sir William Eley C.
    Burdett-Coutts, W.Hoare, Samuel John GurneyRandies, Sir John S.
    Burn, Colonel C. R.Hohler, Gerald FitzroyRawlinson, John Frederick Peel
    Butcher, J. G.Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)Rees, Sir J. D.
    Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
    Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin, Univ.)Home, Edward (Surrey, Guildford)Rolleston, Sir J. D.
    Campion, W. R.Houston, Robert PatersonRoyds, Edmund
    Carlile, Sir Edward HildredHume-Williams, William EllisSanders, Robert A.
    Cassel, FelixHunt, RowlandSanderson, Lancelot
    Castlereagh, ViscountHunter, Sir C. R.Sandys, G. J.
    Cator, JohnIngleby, HolcombeSassoon, Sir Philip
    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)
    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)Jessel, Captain H. M.Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
    Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)Joynson-Hicks, WilliamSmith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton),
    Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.Smith, Harold (Warrington)
    Clay, Captain H. H. SpenderKerr-Smiley, Peter KerrSpear, Sir John Ward
    Clive, Captain Percy ArcherKerry, Earl ofStanler, Beville
    Clyde, J. AvonKimber, Sir HenryStanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormsklrk)
    Courthope, G. LoydKinloch-Cooke, Sir ClementStanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
    Craig, Charles (Antrim, S.)Lane-Fox, G. R.Staveley-Hill, Henry
    Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)Larrnor, Sir J.Stewart, Gershom
    Crichton-Stuart, Lord NinianLaw, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)
    Cripps, Sir Charles AlfredLawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)Swift, Rigby
    Dalziel, D. (Brixton)Lee, Arthur H.Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)
    Doughty, Sir GeorgeLewisham, ViscountSykes, Mark (Hull, Central)
    Du Cros, Arthur PhilipLloyd, G. A.Talbot, Lord E.
    Duke, Henry EdwardLocker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.)
    Eyres-Monsell, B. M.Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.Terrell, H. (Gloucester)
    Faber, George Denison (Clapham)Lowe, Sir F. (Birm., Edgbaston)Thompson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)
    Falle, Bertram GodfrayLyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)Thynne, Lord Alexander
    Fell, ArthurMacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeaghTouche, George Alexander
    Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.M'Neil I, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)Tryon, Captain George Clement
    Fleming, ValentineMagnus, Sir PhilipTullibardine, Marquess of

    Valentia, ViscountWilloughby, Major Hon. ClaudYate, Col. Charles Edward
    Walrond, Hon. LionelWilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)Yerburgh, Robert A.
    Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)Wolmer, ViscountYounger, Sir George
    Wheler, Granville C H.Wood, John (Stalybridge)
    White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport)Worthington-Evans, L.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. G. Locker-Lampson and Mr. Hewins.

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

    Clause 24—(Powers Of Vestries And Church-Wardens)

    Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

    Division No. 534.]


    [7.16 p.m.

    Abraham, William (Dublin. Harbour)Dickinson, W. H.Hudson, Walter
    Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)Dillon, JohnHughes, S. L.
    Adamson, WilliamDonelan, Captain A.Illingworth, Percy H.
    Addison, Dr. ChristopherDoris, W.Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus
    Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.Duffy, William J.Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea)
    Agnew, Sir George WilliamDuncan C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)
    Ainsworth, John StirlingDuncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)
    Alden, PercyEdwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)
    Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)Jones, Leif Straiten (Rushcliffe)
    Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)Elverston, Sir HaroldJones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)
    Arnold, SydneyEsmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)Joyce, Michael
    Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert HenryEsmond, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)Keating, Matthew
    Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A.Essex, Sir Richard WalterKellaway, Frederick George
    Baker, H. T. (Accrington)Farrell, James PatrickKennedy, Vincent Paul
    Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)Fenwick, Rt. Hon. CharlesKilbride, Denis
    Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas RobinsonKing, J.
    Baring, sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)Ffrench, PeterLambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S.Molton)
    Barnes, G. N.Field, WilliamLambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)
    Barton, W.Fitzgiblion, JohnLaw, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)
    Beck, Arthur CecilFlavin, Michael JosephLawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)
    Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.)Gilhooly, JamesLeach, Charles
    Bentham, G. J.Gill, A. H.Levy, Sir Maurice
    Bethell, Sir J. H.Ginnell, L.Lewis, John Herbert
    Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineGladstone, W. G. C.Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas
    Black, Arthur W.Glanville, Harold JamesLundon, Thomas
    Boland, John PlusGoddard, Sir Daniel FordLyell, Charles Henry
    Booth, Frederick HandelGoldstone, FrankLynch, A. A.
    Bowerman, C. W.Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)McGhee, Richard
    Boyle, D. (Mayo, North)Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.
    Brace, WilliamGreig, Colonel J. W.MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)
    Brady, P. J.Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir EdwardMacpherson, James Ian
    Brocklehthust, W. B.Griffith, Ellis J.MacVeagh, Jeremiah
    Brunner, John F. L.Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)M'Callum, Sir John M.
    Bryce, J. AnnanGuest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
    Burke, E. HavilandGulland, John WilliamM'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding)
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnGwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)Markham, Sir Arthur Basil
    Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasHackett, J.Marks, Sir George Croydon
    Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)Martin, Joseph
    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)Hancock, John GeorgeMason, David M. (Coventry)
    Byles, Sir William PollardHarcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)Meagher, Michael
    Cawley, H. T. (Lanes., Heywood)Hardie, J. KeirMechan, Francis (Leitrim, N.)
    Chapple, Dr. William AllenHarmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)Millar, James Duncan
    Clancy, John JosephHarmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)Molloy, M.
    Clough, WilliamHarvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)Molteno, Percy Alport
    Clynes, John R.Harvey, T, E. (Leeds, W.)Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz
    Collins, G. P. (Greenock)Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)Morgan, George Hay
    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Morrell, Philip
    Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.Havelock-Allan, Sir HenryMorison, Hector
    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Hayden, John PatrickMorton, Alpheus Cleophas
    Cotton, William FrancisHayward, EvanMuldoon, John
    Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Hazleton, RichardMunro, R.
    Crawshay-Williams, EliotHealy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E.)Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon R. C.
    Crooks, WilliamHelme, Sir Norval WatsonMurray, Captain Hon. A. C.
    Crumley, PatrickHenderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)Neilson, Francis
    Cullman, J.Henry Sir CharlesNicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)
    Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)Nolan, Joseph
    Davies David (Montgomery Co.)Higham, John SharpNorman, Sir Henry
    Davies, E. William (Eifion)Hinds, JohnNorton, Captain Cecil W.
    Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.Nuttall, Harry
    Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Hodge, JohnO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire)Hogge, James MylesO'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
    Dawes, James ArthurHolmes, Daniel TurnerO'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
    De Forest, BaronHolt, Richard DurningO'Donnell, Thomas
    Delany, WilliamHope, John Deans (Haddington)O'Dowd, John
    Denman, Hon. R D.Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)O'Grady, James
    Devlin, JosephHoward, Hon. GeoffreyO'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

    The Committee divided: Ayes, 304; Noes, 195.

    O'Keily, James (Roscommon, S.)Roberts, Sir H. (Denbighs)Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
    O'Malley, WilliamRobertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)Thome, William (West Ham)
    O'Neill, Or. Charles (Armagh, S.)Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)Toulmin, Sir George
    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.Robinson, SidneyTrevelyan, Charles Philips
    O'Shee, James JohnRoch, Walter F.Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
    O'Sullivan, TimothyRoche, Augustine (Louth)Verney, Sir Harry
    Outhwaite, R. L.Roche, John (Galway, E.)Wadsworth, J.
    Palmer, Godfrey MarkRoe, Sir ThomasWalsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)
    Parker, James (Halifax)Rowlands, JamesWalters, Sir John Tudor
    Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)Rowntree, ArnoldWalton, Sir Joseph
    Pearce, William (Limehouse)Runciman, Rt. Hon. WalterWard, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
    Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
    Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)Wardle, George J.
    Philips, Col. Ivor (Southampton)Scanlan, ThomasWaring Walter
    Phillips, John (Longford, S.)Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
    Pollard, Sir George H.Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
    Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.Watt, Henry A.
    Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)Sheeny, DavidWhite, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
    Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk. E)Sherwell, Arthur JamesWhite, Patrick (Meath, North)
    Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)Shortt, EdwardWhitehouse, John Howard
    Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford)Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John AllsebrookWhittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
    Pringle, William M. R.Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
    Radford, G. H.Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)Wiles, Thomas
    Raffan, Peter WilsonSmyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)Wilkie, Alexander
    Raphael, Sir Herbert H.Snowden, PhilipWilliams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
    Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir AlbertWilliams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
    Reddy, M.Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Redmond, John E. (Watertord)Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)Winfrey, Richard
    Redmond, William (Clare, E.)Sutherland, J. E.Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)
    Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)Sutton, John E.Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
    Rendall, AthelstanTaylor, John W. (Durham)Young, William (Perth, East)
    Richardson, Albion (Peckham)Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)Yoxall, Sir James Henry
    Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)
    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Tennant, Harold John

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. W. Jones and Mr. Webb.

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)Thomas, J. H.


    Agg-Gardner, James TynteCraig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)Houston, Robert Paterson
    Amery, L. C. M. S.Crichton-Stuart, Lord NinianHume-Williams, William Ellis
    Anstruther-Gray, Major WilliamCripps, Sir Charles AlfredHunt, Rowland
    Archer-Shee, Major MartinDalziel, Davison (Brixton)Hunter, Sir C. R.
    Ashley, W. W.Doughty, Sir GeorgeIngleby, Holcombe
    Baird, J. L.Du Cros, Arthur PhilipJardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)
    Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)Duke, Henry EdwardJessel Captain H. M.
    Balcarres, LordEyres-Monsell, B. M,Joynson-Hicks, William
    Baldwin, StanleyFaber, George Denison (Clapham)Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.
    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.)Falle, Bertram, GodfrayKerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr
    Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeFell, ArthurKimber, Sir Henry
    Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
    Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)Fleming, ValentineLane-Fox, G. R.
    Barnston, HarryFletcher, John SamuelLarmor, Sir J.
    Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc. E.)Forster, Henry WilliamLaw, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)
    Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)Gardner, ErnestLawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)
    Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh HicksGastrell, Major W. H.Lee, Arthur H.
    Beckett, Hon. GervaseGibbs, G. A.Lewisham, Viscount
    Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)Gilmour, Captain JohnLloyd, G. A.
    Bentinck, Lord H. CavendishGlazebrook, Capt. Philip K.Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)
    Beresford, Lord C.Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)
    Bigland, AlfredGoulding, Edward AlfredLockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.
    Bird, A.Grant, J. A.Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)
    Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-Greene, W. R.Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)
    Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)MacCaw, Win. J. MacGeagh
    Boyton, JamesGuinness, Hon.W.E. (Bury S.Edmunds)Mackinder, H. J.
    Bridgeman, W. CliveGwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)Macmaster, Donald
    Burdett-Coutts, W.Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)
    Burn, Colonel C. R.Hall, Fred (Dulwich)Magnus, Sir Philip
    Butcher, J. G.Hall, Marshall, (E. Toxteth)Malcolm, Ian
    Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)Hambro, Angus ValdemarMallaby-Deeley, Harry
    Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)Mason, James F. (Windsor)
    Campion, W. R.Harris, Henry PercyMiddlemore, John Throgmorton
    Carlile, Sir Edward HildredHarrison-Broadley, H. B.Mildmay, Francis Bingham
    Cassel, FelixHelmsloy, ViscountMills, Hon. Charles Thomas
    Castlereagh, ViscountHenderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)Moore, William
    Cator, JohnHewins, William Albert SamuelMorrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)
    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Hickman, Colonel T. E.Mount, William Arthur
    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)Hill, Sir Clement L.Neville, Reginald J. N.
    Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)Hills, John WallerNewman, John R. P.
    Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.Hill-Wood, SamuelNewton, Harry Kottingham
    Clay, Captain H. H. SpenderHoare, Samuel John GurneyNicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
    Clive, Captain Percy ArcherHohler, G. F.Nield, Herbert
    Clyde, J. AvonHope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)Orde-Powlett Hon. W. G. A.
    Courthope, G. LoydHope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
    Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)Home, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford)Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

    Parkes, EbenezerScott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)Tryon, Captain George Clement
    Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)Tullibardine, Marquess of
    Peel, Captain R. F.Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l., Walton)Valentia, Viscount
    Perkins, Walter F.Smith, Harold (Warrington)Walrond, Hon. Lionel
    Peto, Basil EdwardSpear, Sir John WardWarde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid)
    Pole-Carew, Sir R.Stanier, BevilleWheler, Granville C. H.
    Pollock, Ernest MurrayStanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport)
    Pretyman, Ernest GeorgeStanley, G. F. (Preston)Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
    Pryce-Jones, Col. E.Staveley-Hill, HenryWilloughby, Major Hon. Claud
    Quilter, Sir William Eley C.Stewart, GershomWilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.)
    Randies, Sir John S.Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)Wolmer, Viscount
    Rawlinson, J. F, P.Swift, RigbyWood, John (Stalybridge)
    Rees, Sir J. D.Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)Worthington-Evans, L.
    Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)Wright, Henry Fitzherbert
    Rolleston, Sir JohnTalbot, Lord E.Yate, Col. Charles Edward
    Royds, EdmundTerrell, G. W. (Wilts, N.W.)Yerburgh, Robert A.
    Salter, Arthur ClavellTerrell, H. (Gloucester)Younger, Sir George
    Sanders, Robert A.Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)
    Sandys, G. J.Thymic, Lord Alexander

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Earl of Kerry and Mr. Sanderson.

    Sassoon, Sir PhilipTouche, George Alexander

    Clause 25—(Powers Of Incumbents With Respect To Property In Which They Have Existing Interest)

    Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    Clause 26—(Powers Of Management And Sale)

    Motion made, and Question, "That the

    Division No. 535.]


    [7.30 p.m.

    Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)Clynes, John R.Gladstone, W. G. C.
    Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)Collins, G. P. (Greenock)Glanville, Harold James
    Adamson, WilliamCollins, Stephen (Lambeth)Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford
    Addison, Dr. ChristopherCompton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.Goldstone, Frank
    Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)
    Agnew, Sir GeorgeCotton, William FrancisGreenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)
    Ainsworth, John StirlingCraig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Greig, Colonel J. W.
    Alden, PercyCrawshay-Williams, EliotGrey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward
    Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)Crooks, WilliamGriffith, Ellis J.
    Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)Crumley, PatrickGuest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)
    Arnold, SydneyCullinan, J.Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)
    Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert HenryDalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)Gulland, John William
    Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A.Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)
    Baker, H. T. (Accrington)Davies, E. Wiliam (Eifion)Hackett, J.
    Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)Davies, Timothy (Lines, Louth)Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)
    Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Hancock, John George
    Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire)Harcourt, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Rossendale)
    Barnes, George N.Dawes, James ArthurHarcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)
    Barton, W.De Forest, BaronHardie, J. Keir
    Beck, Arthur CecilDelany, WilliamHarmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)
    Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.)Denman, Hon. Richard DouglasHarmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)
    Bentham, G. J.Devlin, JosephHarvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
    Bethell, Sir J. H.Dickinson, W. H.Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)
    Birred, Rt. Hon. AugustineDillon, JohnHarvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)
    Black, Arthur W.Donelan, Captain A.Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)
    Boland, John PiusDoris, W.Havelock Allan, Sir Henry
    Booth, Frederick HandelDuffy, William J.Hayden, John Patrick
    Bowerman, C. W.Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Hayward, Evan
    Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)Hazleton, Richard
    Brace, WilliamEdwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Helme, Sir Norval Watson
    Brady, P. J.Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)
    Brocklehurst, W. B.Elverston, Sir HaroldHenry, Sir Charles
    Brunner, John F, L.Esmonde, Dr. John (Tinperary, N.)Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)
    Bryce, J. AnnanEsmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)Higbam, John Sharp
    Burke, E. HavilandEssex, Sir Richard WalterHinds, John
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnFarrell, James PatrickHobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.
    Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasFenwick, Rt. Hon. CharlesHodge, John
    Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas RobinsonHogge, James Myles
    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)Ffrench, PeterHolmes, Daniel Turner
    Byles, Sir William PollardField, WilliamHolt, Richard Durning
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Fitzgibbon, JohnHope, John Deans (Haddington)
    Cawley, H. T. (Lanes, Heywood)Flavin, Michael JosephHome, C. Silvester (Ipswich)
    Chapple, Dr. William AllenGilhooly, JamesHoward, Hon. Geoffrey
    Clancy, John JosephGill, A. H.Hudson, Walter
    Clough, WilliamGinnell, L.Hughes, S. L.

    Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    Clause 27—(Supplemental Provisions As To Tithe Rent-Charge)

    Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

    The Committee divided: Ayes, 300; Noes, 195.

    Illingworth, Percy H.Norton, Captain CecilSamuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir RufusNuttall, HarryScanlan, Thomas
    Jones, Rt.Hon.Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea)O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.
    Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)
    Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.
    Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)O'Donnell, ThomasSheehy, David
    Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe)O'Dowd, JohnSherwell, Arthur James
    Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)O'Grady, JamesShortt, Edward
    Joyce, MichaelO'Keily, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)Simon, Rt. Hon, Sir John Allsebrook
    Keating, MatthewO'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)
    Kellaway, Frederick GeorgeO'Maliey, WilliamSmith, H. B. L. (Northampton)
    Kennedy, Vincent PaulO'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)Smyth, Thomas F.
    Kilbride, DenisO'Shaughnessy, P. J.Snowden, Philip
    King, J.O'Shee, James JohnSpicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert
    Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S.Molton)O'Sullivan, TimothyStanley, Albert (Staffs, N.)
    Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)Outhwaite, R. L.Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
    Lardner, James Carrige RushePalmer, Godfrey MarkSutherland, J. E.
    Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)Parker, James (Halifax)Sutton, John E.
    Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)Taylor, John W. (Durham)
    Leach, CharlesPearce, William (Limehouse)Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
    Levy, Sir MauricePearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)
    Lewis, John HerbertPease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)Tennant, Harold John
    Lundon, ThomasPhilipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)Thomas J. H.
    Lyell, Charles HenryPhillips, John (Longford, S.)Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
    Lynch, A. A.Pollard, Sir George H.Thome, William (West Ham)
    McGhee, RichardPonsonby, Arthur A. W. H,Toulmin, Sir George
    Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)Trevelyan, Charles Philips
    MacNeill, J. G. Swilt (Donegal, South)Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
    Macpherson, James IanPriestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)Verney, Sir Harry
    MacVeagh, JeremiahPriestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)Wadsworth, J.
    M'Callum, Sir John M.Pringle, William M. R.Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)
    McKenna, Rt. Hon. ReginaldRadford, G. H.Walters, Sir John Tudor
    M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Linos., Spalding)Rattan, Peter WilsonWalton, Sir Joseph
    Markham, Sir Arthur BasilRaphael, Sir Herbert H.Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
    Marks, Sir George CroydonRea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)Wardle, George J.
    Martin, JosephReddy, M.Waring, Walter
    Mason, David M. (Coventry)Redmond, John E. (Waterford)Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
    Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.Redmond, William (Clare, E.)Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
    Meagher, MichaelRedmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)Watt, Henry A.
    Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)Rendall, AthelstanWhite, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
    Millar, James DuncanRichardson, Albion (Peckham)White, Patrick (Meath, North)
    Molloy, M.Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)Whitehouse, John Howard
    Molteno, Percy AlportRoberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas
    Mond, Sir Alfred MoritzRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
    Morgan, George HayRoberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)Wilkie, Alexander
    Morrell, PhilipRobertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
    Morison, HectorRobertson, John M. (Tyneside)Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
    Morton, Alpheus CleophasRobinson, SidneyWilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Muldoon, JohnRoch, Walter F.Winfrey, Richard
    Munro, R.Roche, Augustine (Louth)Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)
    Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.Roche, John (Galway, E.)Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
    Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C.Roe, Sir ThomasYoung, W. (Perth, E.)
    Nellson, FrancisRowlands, JamesYoxall, Sir James Henry
    Nicholson, Sir C. N. (Doncaster)Rowntree, Arnold
    Nolan, JosephRunciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. W. Jones and Mr. Webb.

    Merman, Sir HenrySamuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)


    Agg-Gardner, James TynteBoyton, JamesDalziel, D. (Brixton)
    Amery. I., C. M. S.Bridgeman, W. CliveDoughty, Sir George
    Anstruther-Gray, Major WilliamBurdett-Coutts, W.Du Cros, Arthur Philip
    Archer-Shee, Major MartinBurn, Colonel C. R.Duke, Henry Edward
    Ashley, W. W.Butcher, J. G.Eyres-Monsell, B. M.
    Baird, J. L.Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)Faber, George Denlson (Clapham)
    Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)Falle, Bertram Godfray
    Balcarres, LordCampion, W. R.Fell, Arthur
    Baldwin, StanleyCarlile, Sir Edward HildredFinlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert
    Ballour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.)Cassel, FelixFitzroy, Hon. Edward A.
    Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeCastlereagh, ViscountFleming, Valentine
    Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)Cator, JohnFletcher, John Samuel
    Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Forster, Henry William
    Barnston, HarryCecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)Gardner, Ernest
    Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)Gastrell, Major W. H.
    Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.Gibbs, G. A.
    Beach. Hon. Michael Hugh HicksClay, Captain H. H. SpenderGilmour, Captain John
    Beckett, Hon. GervaseClive, Captain Percy ArcherGiazebrook, Captain Philip K.
    Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)Clyde, J. AvonGordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)
    Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-Courthope, G. LoydGoulding, Edward Alfred
    Beresford, Lord C.Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)Grant, J. A.
    Bigland, AlfredCraig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)Greene, W. R.
    Bird, A.Crichton-Stuart, Lord NinlanGuinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)
    Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. GriffithCripps, Sir Charles AlfredGuinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S.Edmunds)
    Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)Croft, H. P.Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

    Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)Sanderson, Lancelot
    Hall, Fred (Dulwich)MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeaghSandys, G. J.
    Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)Mackinder, H. J.Sassoon, Sir Philip
    Hambro, Angus ValdemarMacmaster, DonaldScott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)
    Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
    Harris, Henry PercyMagnus. Sir PhilipSmith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton)
    Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Malcolm, IanSmith, Harold (Warrington)
    Helmsley, ViscountMallaby-Deeley, HarrySpear, Sir John Ward
    Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)Mason, James F. (Windsor)Stanier, Beville
    Hewins, William Albert SamuelMiddlemore, John ThrogmortonStanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)
    Hickman, Colonel T. E,Mildmay, Francis BinghamStanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
    Hill, Sir Clement L.Mills, Hon, Charles ThomasStaveley-Hill, Henry
    Hills, John WallerMoore, WilliamStewart, Gershom
    Hill-Wood, SamuelMorrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)Strauss. Arthur (Paddington, North)
    Hoare, Samuel John GurneyMount, William ArthurSwift, Rigby
    Hohler, Gerald FitzroyNeville, Reginald J. N.Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)
    Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)Newdegate, F. A.Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)
    Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)Newman, John R. P.Talbot, Lord E.
    Houston, Robert PatersonNewton, Harry KottinghamTerrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.)
    Hume-Williams, William EllisNicholson, William G. (Petersfield)Terrell, H. (Gloucester)
    Hunt, RowlandNield, HerbertThomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)
    Hunter, Sir C. R.Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.Thynne, Lord Alexander
    Ingleby, HolcombeParker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)Touche, George Alexander
    Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)Parkes, EbenezerTryon, Captain George Clement
    Joynson-Hicks, WilliamPease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)Tullibardine, Marquess of
    Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)Valentia, Viscount
    Kerr-Smiley, Peter KerrPerkins, WalterWalrond, Hon. Lionel
    Kerry, Earl ofPeto, Basil EdwardWarde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid)
    Kimber, Sir HenryPole-Carew, Sir R,Wheler, Granville, C. H.
    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir ClementPollock, Ernest MurrayWhite, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport)
    Lane-Fox, G. R.Pretyman, Ernest GeorgeWilliams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
    Larmor, Sir J.Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud
    Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)Quilter, Sir William Eley C.Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.)
    Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)Randies, Sir John S.Wood, John (Stalybridge)
    Lee, Arthur H.Rawlinson, John Frederick PeelWorthington-Evans, L.
    Lewisham, ViscountRees, Sir J. D.Wright, Henry Fitzherbert
    Lloyd, G. A.Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)Yerburgh, Robert A.
    Locker-Lampson, G (Salisbury)Rolleston, Sir JohnYounger, Sir George
    Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)Royds, Edmund
    Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.Salter, Arthur Clavell

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Viscount Wolmer and Mr. Ormsby-Gore.

    Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)Sanders, Robert Arthur

    Clause 28—(Delivery Up Of And Access To Books And Documents)

    Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

    Division No. 536.]


    [7.41 p.m.

    Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)
    Abraham, Rt. Hon, (Rhondda)Byles, Sir William PollardEdwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)
    Adamson, WilliamCawley, H. T. (Lanes., Heywood)Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)
    Addison, Dr. ChristopherChapple, Dr. William AllenElverston, Sir Harold
    Agnew, Sir George WilliamClancy, John JosephEsmonds, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)
    Ainsworth, John StirlingClough, WilliamEsmonde, Sir Thomas Walter
    Alden, PercyClynes, John R.Essex, Sir Richard Walter
    Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)Collins, G. P. (Greenock)Parrell, James Patrick
    Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles
    Arnold, SydneyCompton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.Ferons, Pt. Hon. Thomas Robinson
    Baker, H. T. (Accrington)Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Ffrench, Peter
    Baker, Joseph Allan (Finsbury, E.)Cotton, William FrancisField, William
    Baltour, Sir Robert (Lanark)Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Fitzgibbon, John
    Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)Crooks, WilliamFlavin, Michael Joseph
    Barnes, G. N.Crumlsy, PatrickGilhooly, James
    Barton, W.Cullinan, J.Gill, A. H.
    Beck, Edward CecilDalziel, Ft. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)Ginnell, L.
    Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.)Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)Gladstone, W. G. C.
    Bentham, G. J.Davies. E. William (Eifion)Glanville, Harold James
    Bethell, Sir J. H.Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford
    Black, Arthur W.Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Geldstone, Frank
    Boland, John PiusDavies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire)Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)
    Booth, Frederick HandelDawes, James ArthurGreenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)
    Bowerman, Charles W.De Forest, BaronGreig, Colonel J. W.
    Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)Delany, WilliamGrey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward
    Brace, WilliamDenman, Hon. R, D.Griffith, Ellis J.
    Brady, Patrick JosephDevlin, JosephGuest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)
    Brocklehurst, William B.Dickinson, W. H.Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)
    Brunner, John F. L.Dillon, JohnGulland, John William
    Bryce, John AnnanDonelan, Captain A,Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)
    Burke, E. Haviland-Doris, W.Hackett, John
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnDuffy, William J.Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)
    Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasDuncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Hancock, John George

    The Committee divided: Ayes, 292; Noes, 191.

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.Robinson, Sidney
    Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)Meagher, MichaelRoch, Walter F.
    Hardie, J. KeirMeehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)Roche, Augustine (Louth)
    Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)Millar, James DuncanRoche, John (Galway, E.)
    Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)Molloy, MichaelRoe, Sir Thomas
    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)Molteno, Percy AlportRowlands, James
    Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)Mond, Sir Alfred MoritzRowntree, Arnold
    Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)Morgan, George HayRunciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Morrell, PhilipSamuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
    Havelock-Allan, Sir HenryMorison, HectorSamuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
    Hayden, John PatrickMorton, Alpheus CleophasScanlan, Thomas
    Hayward, EvanMuldoon, JohnSchwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.
    Hazleton, RichardMunro, R,Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)
    Helme, Sir Norval WatsonMunro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.
    Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)Murray, Captain Hon. A. C.Sheehy, David
    Henry, Sir CharlesNeilson, FrancisSherwell, Arthur James
    Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)Nicholson, Sir C. N. (Doncaster)Shortt, Edward
    Higham, John SharpNolan, JosephSimon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook
    Hinds, JohnNorman, Sir HenrySmith, Albert (Lanes., Clltheroe)
    Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.Norton, Captain Cecil W.Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)
    Hodge, JohnNuttall, HarrySmyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
    Hogge, James MylesO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Snowden, Philip
    Holmes Daniel TurnerO'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert
    Holt, Richard DurningO'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
    Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)O'Donnell, ThomasStrauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
    Howard, Hon. GeoffreyO'Dowd, JohnSutherland, J. E.
    Hudson, WalterO'Grady, JamesSutton, John E.
    Hughes, S. L.0'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)Taylor, John W. (Durham)
    Illingworth, Percy H.O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir RufusO'Malley, WilliamTaylor, Thomas (Bolton)
    Jones, Rt.Hon.Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea)O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)Tennant, Harold John
    Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)O'Shaughnessy, P. J.Thomas, J. H.
    Jones, H. Hayden (Merioneth)O'Shee, James JohnThome, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
    Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)O'Sullivan, TimothyThome, William (West Ham)
    Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)Outhwaite, R. L,Toulmin, Sir George
    Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)Palmer, Godlrey MarkTrevelyan, Charles Philips
    Joyce, MichaelParker, James (Halifax)Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
    Keating, MatthewPeace, Robert (Staffs, Leek)Verney, Sir Harry
    Kellaway, Frederick GeorgePearce, William (Limehouse)Wadsworth, J.
    Kennedy, Vincent PaulPease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)
    Kilbride, DenisPhilipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)Walters, Sir John Tudor
    King, J.Phillips, John (Longford, S.)Walton, Sir Joseph
    Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S.Molton)Pollard, Sir George H.Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
    Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.Wardle, George J.
    Lardner, James Carrige RushePrice, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)Waring, Walter
    Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
    Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
    Leach, CharlesPriestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)Watt, Henry A.
    Levy, Sir MauricePringle, William M. R.White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
    Lewis, John HerbertRadford, G. H.White, Patrick (Meath, North)
    Lundon, ThomasRaffan, Peter WilsonWhitehouse, John Howard
    Lyell, Charles ThomasRaphael, Sir Herbert H.Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
    Lynch, A. A.Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
    McGhee, RichardReddy, M.Wilkie, Alexander
    Maclean, DonaldRedmond, John E. (Waterford)Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
    Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.Redmond, William (Clare, E.)Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
    MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Macpherson, James IanRendall, AthelstanWinfrey, Richard
    MacVeagh, JeremiahRichardson, Albion (Peckham)Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)
    M'Callum, Sir John M.Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
    McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald'Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Young, William (Perth, East)
    M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lines., Spalding)Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)Yoxall, Sir James Henry
    Markham, Sir Arthur BasilRoberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)
    Marks, Sir George (Croydon)Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. William Jones and Mr. Webb.

    Martin, JosephRobertson, John M. (Tyneside)
    Mason, David M. (Coventry)


    Agg-Gardner, James TynteBathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)
    Amery, L. C. M. S.Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh HicksCampbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)
    Anstruther-Gray, Major WilliamBeckett, Hon. GervaseCampion, W. R.
    Archer-Shee, Major MartinBenn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred
    Ashley, W. W.Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-Cassel, Felix
    Baird, J. L.Beresford, Lord C.Castlereagh, Viscount
    Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)Bigland, AlfredCecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)
    Balcarres, LordBird, A.Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)
    Baldwin, StanleyBoscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. GriffithCecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)
    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond)Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.
    Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeBoyton, JamesClay, Captain H. H. Spender
    Baring, Ma|. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)Bridgeman, W. CliveClive, Captain Percy Archer
    Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)Burdett-Coutts, W.Clyde, J. Avon
    Barnston, HarryBurn. Colonel C. B.Courthopc, G. Loyd
    Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)Butcher, J. G.Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet).

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord NinianJardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)Randies, Sir John S.
    Cripps, Sir Charles AlfredJoynson-Hicks, WilliamRawlinson, John Frederick Peel
    Croft, H. P.Kebty-Fietcher, J. R.Rees, Sir J. D.
    Dalziel, D. (Brixton)Kerr-Smiley, Peter KerrRoberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
    Doughty, Sir GeorgeKerry, Earl ofRoyds, Edmund
    Du Cros, Arthur PhilipKimber, Sir HenrySalter, Arthur Clavell
    Ouke, Henry EdwardKinloch-Cooke, Sir ClementSanders, Robert A.
    Eyres-Monsell, B. M,Lane-Fox, G. R.Sanderson, Lancelot
    Faber, George Denison (Clapham)Larmor, Sir J.Sandys, G. J.
    Falle, Bertram GodfrayLaw, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)Sassoon, Sir Philip
    Fell, ArthurLawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)
    Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir RobertLee, Arthur H.Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
    Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.Lewisham, ViscountSmith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'pl, Walton)
    Fleming, ValentineLloyd, G. A.Smith, Harold (Warrington)
    Forster, Henry WilliamLocker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)Spear, Sir John Ward
    Gardner, ErnestLocker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)Stanier, Beville
    Gastrell, Major W. H.Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. RStanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)
    Gibbs, G. A.Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
    Gilmour, Captain JohnLyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)Staveley-Hill, Henry
    Glazebrook, Captain Philip K.MacCaw, Win. J. MacGeaghStewart, Gershom
    Goldman, C. S.Mackinder, H. J.Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)
    Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)Macmaster, DonaldSwift, Rigby
    Goulding, Edward AlfredM'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)Sykes, Alan John (Glas., Knutsford)
    Grant, J. A.Magnus, Sir PhilipSykes, Mark (Hull, Central)
    Greene, W. R.Malcolm, IanTalbot, Lord E.
    Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)Mallaby-Deeley, HarryTerrell, H. (Gloucester)
    Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S.Edmunds)Mason, James F. (Windsor)Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)
    Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)Middlemore, John ThrogmortonThynne, Lord Alexander
    Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)Mildmay, Francis BinghamTouche, George Alexander
    Hall, Fred (Dulwich)Mills, Hon Charles ThomasTryon, Captain George Clement
    Hall, Marshall, E. (Toxteth)Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)Tullibardine, Marquess of
    Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)Mount, William ArthurValentia, Viscount
    Harris, Henry PercyNeville, Reginald J. N.Walrond, Hon. Lionel
    Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Newdegate, F. A.Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
    Helmsley, ViscountNewman, John R. P.Wheler, Granville C. H.
    Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)Newton, Harry KottinghamWhite, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport)
    Hewins, William Albert SamuelNicholson, William G. (Petersfield)Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
    Hickman, Colonel T. E.Nield, HerbertWilloughby, Major Hon. Claude
    Hill, Sir Clement T. E.Orde-Powlett, Hen. W. G. A.Wills, Sir Gilbert
    Hills, John WallerOrmsby-Gore, Hon. WilliamWilson, Hon. A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.)
    Hill-Wood, SamuelParkes, EbenezerWolmer, Viscount
    Hoare, Samuel John GurneyPease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)Wood, John (Stalybridge)
    Hohler, Gerald FitzroyPeel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)Worthington-Evans, L.
    Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)Perkins, Walter F.Wright, Henry Fitzherbert
    Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)Peto, Basil EdwardYerburgh, Robert A.
    Houston, Robert PatersonPole-Carew, Sir R.Younger, Sir George
    Hume-Williams, William EllisPollock, Ernest Murray
    Hunt, RowlandPretyman, Ernest George

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Cator and Mr. Fletcher.

    Hunter, Sir C. R.Pryce-Jones, Col. E.
    Ingleby, HolcombeQuilter, Sir William Eley C.

    Committee report Progress; to sit again this day, immediately after the disposal of the Order relating to Established Church (Wales) (Money), Report.

    Established Church (Wales) (Money)

    Resolution reported, "That it is expedient to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of such sums as may be necessary for payment of principal and interest of any money borrowed by the Welsh Commissioners in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to terminate the establishment of the Church of England in Wales and Monmouthshire, and to make provision in respect of the Temporalities thereof, and for other purposes in connection with the matters aforesaid."

    Resolution read a second time.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

    Last night there was no opportunity of discussing this matter, and this is now the only opportunity we will have of endeavouring to ascertain from the Government what the real meaning of this Financial Resolution is, how much money they think they will need, what borrowing powers will be required, and what, in effect, is the ultimate liability to the taxpayer of this country. So far as my limited experience goes almost every Bill which this Government brings in needs a Finance Resolution. Certainly this Session the Bills have been so distinguished. The Home Rule Bill, now this Bill, a week or two ago the Pilotage Bill, and, in fact, every single Bill the Government brings in involves the adding of a number of new officials of various kinds, and I think we shall find before the Committee stage of this Bill is finished that the country will be saddled with the payment of more officials under the provisions of this Bill. I quite agree that a Finance Resolution is needed actually and verbally, though it merely authorises the Treasury to guarantee the loans made by the Welsh Commissioners. I understand that the Welsh Commissioners when they have got any property, which cannot possibly be until some of the advowsements fall in, will be entitled to deal with them and to sell or otherwise to deal with them. In the meantime it is possible they will have to borrow money in order to carry out the methods adopted by the Government of spoiling the Church in Wales. The Treasury will be asked, are asked, under the provisions of this Resolution to guarantee any loan whatever which the Welsh Commissioners choose to make or the Treasury chooses to sanction.

    In the first place, I am one of those who strongly object to giving the Government of the day, or the Treasury, the unlimited power of borrowing that this Resolution gives. There is no limit whatever in this Resolution, although in the last Money Resolution passed by this House in connection with the Pilotage Bill the House did very rightly impose a limit. It was a small Bill. The amount that the Government desired to take from the pocket of the taxpayers was not large. But I think very rightly a maximum was inserted in that Money Resolution. That maximum, of course, guides the Treasury for all time unless they can get a further Resolution passed by this House. I certainly thought of moving an Amendment to this Resolution limiting the borrowing powers of the Welsh Commission. Of course the Welsh Commission can borrow without any leave from this House. I quite agree to that; but we want to limit the borrowing power of the Welsh Commissioners so far as pledging the credit of this country is concerned. I am in this predicament: I take it that a large portion of the borrowing of the Welsh Commissioners will be needed for commutation schemes. We understood a few days ago that the Government were prepared very shortly to place their scheme before this House in regard to the provision made for valuing the life interests. That, I take it, is the principal item which will necessitate borrowing powers on the part of the Welsh Commissioners. There are small items, such as salaries and so forth, which I will deal with in a moment, but the large item is the item of commutation. It is exceedingly difficult to those of us who desire to control Treasury expenditure, and keep some check upon the public purse, to know what limit to impose without knowing the Government provision with regard to commutation. I think I am entitled to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, who has had control of this Bill for many weeks past, for information upon the point. I suppose he considered, in view of bringing in his Bill, the various proposals that might, would, or could be made from this side of the House—he must have had some idea in his mind what commutation schemes would be put before the House. Under ordinary circumstances I think we should have been quite entitled to move the Adjournment of the Debate on this Resolution until the right hon. Gentleman had put before the House his commutation scheme. That is impossible now. Under the Guillotine Resolution it is impossible for us to do what might be construed as a dilatory Motion for the Adjournment of this Debate. I do suggest, however, that it is exceedingly difficult under the scheme which the Government has adopted for a very long time in this House for us to debate this Money Resolution giving the Welsh Commissioners power, with the assent of the Treasury, to borrow what money they like, the bulk of which will be needed for this commutation scheme if it comes off.

    I do not hesitate to say if the commutation scheme that is to be proposed by the right hon. Gentleman is one which the Church can accept, is one which would be beneficial to the Church, that I should take one view of this Resolution and one view of the Amendment which I would desire to limit the Treasury in guaranteeing the loan of. On the other hand, if the commutation scheme is one which would not commend itself to the Church, is one at which we cannot look, and which the Church say they have no use for, then, I take it, that we would then be entitled to move an Amendment limiting the amount of the Treasury guarantee to such moderate amounts as may be needed for the purposes of carrying out the ordinary purposes of this Bill. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will immediately after I have spoken, and before other hon. Members on this side speak, give the House sufficient details of his commutation scheme, whatever it may be, in order that on this Resolution we may decide whether we think it right that the credit of the country should be pledged to provide the sum necessary—one, two, or three millions sterling—for carrying out that commutation scheme. Another point arises in my mind. I doubt very much if the taxpayers of this country had any idea six months ago, when this Welsh Bill was debated outside, that they were going to be called upon to pay for the Disestablishment of the Welsh Church. I am quite sure, much as Church people throughout England dislike the Disestablishment of the Welsh Church—I am not, of course, going into the main question—much as we dislike this Bill, our dislike, and the dislike of the Welsh Nonconformists would have increased, if they had known that they would have to pay to provide money out of the public purse in order that this scheme of spoliation could be carried out! Whether the money is lent directly by the country or guaranteed by the country, it is exactly the same thing. The credit of the country is pledged for it.

    8.0 P.M.

    Before I leave this matter I would just like to call to the right hon. Gentleman's memory the Debate which took place here sonic few weeks ago—when Mr. Speaker was in the Chair—a Debate on the allocation of time for the guillotine in regard to this Bill, and particularly in regard to the time for taking this Finance Resolution. It was pointed out that it would be impossible to take it in Committee. The hon. Member for Dudley raised a question with regard to the salary for the Welsh Commissioners. I spoke on the matter. The right hon. Gentleman opposite also took part in the Debate. It was generally understood that we should be able to turn to Clause 10 when the Finance Resolution came on. The point then taken, and which I want some definite answer on, was that under Clause 10 certain Welsh Commissioners are going to be appointed. The House wiil remember that by Clause 10, Sub-section (4), certain salaries are to be paid to these Welsh Com-Commissioners, in one case not exceeding £1,500 a year, and in the other case £1,000, as the Treasury might direct. We suggested very strongly then that a Money Resolution was wanted for that Clause, because there was the possibility that those salaries might have to be paid out of the taxpayer's pocket, and out of the provisions of the Money Resolution which we are now discussing. The right hon. Gentleman was rather angry on the two matters. He said that no Money Resolution was required to deal with Clause 10, because the Commissioners' salaries would be paid out of the funds of the Welsh Church which are taken over. We objected strongly to these Commissioners being paid salaries out of our own money. It is money taken from our Church, and I think it would be distinctly fairer to the Welsh Commissioners to pay them out of public money and not to take that money out of the Church funds. On considering that fact I think the Finance Resolution is required. I was almost inclined to ask your ruling, Mr. Speaker, but I suppose it is too late now as Clause 10 has been passed. Supposing you get your Disestablishment Bill carried through, and you appoint your Commissioners and the officials, unfortunately for you, happen to live for a few years, how are you going to pay the salaries of those Commissioners? Where is the money to come from? The right hon. Gentleman told us it was going to come out of the Church Property Fund, but there will be no fund at the beginning, and the way you will have to pay these Commissioners' salaries I imagine will be by loan. Is that part of the loan which is coming from the Exchequer under the provisions of the Resolution we are discussing? Is that part of the loan that is to be guaranteed by the Treasury for which the people of this country are to be responsible? These are the questions I want to put to the right hon. Gentleman. What is the total liability which the taxpayers of this country can by any possibility under the provisions of this Resolution be called upon to pay? In order to get at that sum the right hon. Gentleman must give some estimation of the commutation scheme and an estimate of the total amount that would be required. Secondly, I want to ask, having regard to his speech in November, whether that estimate was not a mistake, and whether in certain circumstances such as those I have described, the salaries of the Welsh Commissioners may not fall upon the Consolidated Fund by reason of their having been paid by a loan guaranteed by the Treasury of this country? I hope the right hon. Gentleman will answer these questions, and will also say whether or not it is possible to limit the amount.

    If the House desires that I should answer at once, I shall do so, but it must be remembered that I can only speak once. However, if it is so desired, I shall reply to the hon. Gentleman's questions without delay. The hon. Gentleman usually speaks with such accuracy and knowledge on financial affairs that I cannot help feeling great surprise at the speech he has just made. He has put to me a series of questions. I am sure had he read this Clause 29, in respect to which this Financial Resolution is needed, through even once, he would have found the answer for himself with the greatest ease. He talked about the country being saddled with the cost of new officials for which this Resolution was required, and about the taxpayers being called upon to pay for Disestablishment, although there is not one word in this Clause or in the Financial Resolution which would justify in the smallest degree any of these questions. I shall substantiate what I am saying. What is the Financial Resolution required for? It is not required, as the hon. Member suggested, in order to enable the Treasury to borrow money; it is required to enable the Treasury to guarantee a loan if such loan is made to the Welsh Commissioners, and it is further required to enable the Treasury for the purposes of that guarantee to pay out of the Consolidated Fund, if necessary, any sum due upon the Welsh Commissioners' loan which the Welsh Commissioners may not, in fact, be able to meet. This provision as to guarantee is only required by way of extra security, for it is quite manifest to anyone who followed these Debates that the security in the hands of the Welsh Commissioners will be far greater than any possible liability that can fall upon them. The House must remember that under Clause 4, as from the date of Disestablishment, there is vested in the Welsh Commissioners a very large amount of property indeed.

    In a certain respect that property is held subject to particular charges. The largest charge is a charge that is to be met in respect of life interests. The life interests obviously cannot absorb the whole of the freehold, and cannot be as great as the freehold. The other charges except the life interest are all comparatively small. There will be charges upon the properly for the salaries of the Welsh Commissioners. Quite true, they will have to bear that; the Commissioners will have to pay the expenses of management; the Commissioners will have to pay compensation to the lay officials of the Church; they will also have to pay compensation to the holders of advowsements. That is quite true, but those charges are not comparable in relation to the amount of property which will become vested in the Commissioners. They will have vested in them all the tithe rent-charges of the Church which produce an income of upwards of £120,000 a year. It is quite true they will hold that, subject to life interests, but with that exception all the charges are really insignificant. It must be remembered that the life interests the Commissioners will have to pay, will be subject to commutation, and will only have to be paid year by year out of the funds which are paid to them. Therefore the liability of the Commissioners in respect to which they would have to borrow, can only be for such trivial amounts as the salaries of the Commissioners, the expenses of their office, the payment of one year's value to the owners of advowsements, and compensation to the lay officials. The whole of that amount could not come to more than a few thousand pounds, while they will hold, subject to life interests, a property which is bringing in £120,000 a year.

    Not now. Certain property remains in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and is not transferred. The property of which the Commissioners will have charge is worth £120,000 a year.

    It is worth £158,000, subject, to the effect of the life interests which is in dispute.

    I could not at the common fund of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners remains as a charge and is not transferred, but the point is immaterial. I accept the figure of the Noble Lord, which if he is right, would be £158,000 a year.

    Can the right hon. Gentleman give us an estimate of the value of the advowsements and of the lay offices?

    I could not at the moment, but the matter is trivial in value; it is limited to one year. The compensation for the owners of the advowsements is limited to one year's value of the emoluments; they are not a large number, and it is quite an insignificant sum. I have not looked into the details, but it is too trivial, too small, to be worth spending much time upon, although it is important to the individual. When you are dealing with such a sum as we are dealing with here, bringing in annually between £120,000 and £160,000 a year, it is idle to talk of the charge upon the Treasury which guarantees a loan, apart from the commutation, of a few thousand pounds. Apart from commutation I do not think I need trouble about the Treasury guarantee at all. I think the Commissioners will have enough money and could themselves borrow. It might make a difference of a quarter or a half per cent, in the rate at which they could borrow, and if the commutation were not large I really need not have troubled much about it. I have to have this Clause in because I have to consider that possibly proposals of commutation will be made, and I could not consider them unless I got this Clause, because if the Commissioners had to raise a sum of money of £20,000 or £30,000 or £40,000 upon a security of £3,000,000, I do not want to guarantee it; but if I have to raise perhaps £2,000,000 upon the security of property valued at £3,000,000, the Treasury guarantee may be of much value, and may enable me to offer much better terms for commutation than otherwise.

    This Clause is introduced with a view to having our hands free to meet all the possibilities of the Bill. If commutation was dropped out this Clause is considered to be justified in itself, but not as a charge that we propose that the taxpayers should be called upon to pay for Disestablishment. I would far rather leave the Clause out. It really is not worth while considering a quarter or perhaps a half per cent, interest, if that is to be made the occasion for charges of this kind. When we come to the question of commutation the matter is different. The hon. Member says, I think quite fairly, that this Clause cannot be considered without some indication of the amount of the liability for guarantee which is thrown upon the Treasury under the commutation system. I do not in the least complain of his raising objection that the Commutation Clause is not actually before the House at this moment. I can only say in answer to that that I would have had the Commutation Clause ready before now except for my anxiety, before introducing it to the House, to know something of the views of the actuarial advisers of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners as to the circumstances of the case in order that we might not take a wrong basis, a basis which would be found wholly unacceptable to the Chuch in estimating the life-interests; and it is really with a view of having an opportunity of consulting the other side that I have been compelled to delay this White Paper until now. I hope the House will be in possession of the White Paper before the end of this week. With regard to the estimate of commutation, I do not think I can add anything to what I said before. It is impossible to give the exact figures, but we know from the Irish experience that it works out somewhere in the neighbourhood of twelve years' purchase. Whether it is a year more or a year less would only affect the total amount to the extent of £158,000. I take twelve years' purchase as the figure, based on a certain amount of authority, judging from our experience that a much longer number of years' purchase than was the case in the Irish Bill will be required, because I recognise that people do live longer to-day than they did forty years ago. I have not the material upon which to make an exact calculation, but I will put it at the largest amount, and the capital sum required I do not think will exceed £2,000,000. Whether it is £1,800,000, £1,900,000, or £2,000,000, does not really matter. If we are to have the Treasury guarantee at all it cannot make much difference which of those is the right amount. The House is asked, by accepting this Resolution, to authorise the Treasury to guarantee a loan which the Welsh Commissioners will have to make in order to provide the capital sum for commutation. I think I have now answered all the points.

    The right hon. Gentleman has not dealt with my point about Clause 10.

    I did not think the hon. Member would raise that point again, for he knows as much about finance as I do. May I point out that a Financial Resolution is not required in respect of Clause 10, the sole purpose of which is to provide for the payments by the Welsh Commissioners out of money which is not public money. A Financial Resolution is only required for any charge that can be laid upon the public, but Clause 10 lays no charge upon the public. The fact that hereafter in another Clause the Treasury is authorised to guarantee a loan which may be raised by the Welsh Commissioners for the purpose of meeting a charge under Clause 10 does not mean that the Financial Resolution must be introduced before Clause 10 is reached, but it means that a Financial Resolution must be introduced before Clause 29 is reached, which might create a technical charge upon the public. This Resolution is required under Clause 29, but clearly it is not required for the purpose of Clause 10. The Welsh Commissioners will have overwhelming funds, and more than are required to meet any of the purposes except commutation. In respect of that the liability can only fall upon the Treasury at all if the amount we pay as representing the life interest is grossly-excessive. From what I have gathered in the course of these discussions that is a contingency which hon. Members opposite would not in the least complain of. In these circumstances, I hope the House will consent to pass this Resolution.

    The right hon. Gentleman has given us a very clear statement of why he wants this Resolution, but there is one phrase he used which I think it is worth while to emphasise because it throws a little light upon what was said in a previous discussion. He said that the compensation for lay officers was too small for consideration, indeed it was so small that it really was not worth while making an estimate of the amount because it was such a negligible quantity when dealing with £157,000 a year. That throws a very bright light upon the refusal of the Government to extend that compensation to such people as charwomen and curates, who might otherwise have been sharers in this generosity which has now been so restricted. The right hon. Gentleman reproached my hon. Friend for suggesting that the cost of the new officials created by the Welsh Commissioners could possibly fall upon this fund. The right hon. Gentleman said it was clear that the Welsh Commissioners were to be paid out of the national property hitherto devoted to religious purposes, but which is now to be devoted to the payment of the nominees of the Government. On the wording of the Bill, it is quite plain that that is so. I think the Government have made a grave mistake and committed a grave injustice in throwing the cost of the Welsh Commissioners upon the funds of the Welsh Church. I have said so before in these discussions, but perhaps it is proper to repeat that I should have felt more disposed to welcome this Resolution with something like favour if it had provided for the payment of the Welsh Commissioners as well as for the guaranteeing of the loan. As for the guaranteeing of the loan, I agree that, apart from commutation, the matter is not an alarming one. In the interests of financial purity. I do not accept the right hon. Gentleman's view that the guaranteeing of a loan of this kind does not throw anything but a technical charge upon the public.

    I said that as regards commutation up to £2,000,000. Of course, the security of £3,000,000 would throw much more than a technical charge upon the public. I said without commutation when dealing with a possible loan of £20,000, £30,000, £40,000, or £50,000 as the security for £3,000,000, the liability in regard to the guarantee is a mere technical charge.

    In regard to small loans of that amount I agree that it is a small matter when you have the revenues of the country behind it, but there is an impression abroad to the effect that you are not paying anything if you use the credit of the country to borrow money. In this respect the right hon. Gentleman used some phrases which I am afraid were rather misleading. As to the commutation I agree with the right hen. Gentleman that it is by far the most important matter that arises on this Resolution. I do not complain of the right hon. Gentleman having taken some days to formulate his scheme, but apparently he never proposed commutation before, and he made no preparation for proposing it. At any rate he has now made a very small preparation. By the end of the week it would be about a fortnight since the Debate took place. If he had made proper preparation, all he had to ascertain was whether his calculations of what was right from a financial point of view were accepted by those who had special experience in ecclesiastical transactions of this character so as to avoid injustice of any description. I must say I do not think that ought to have taken a fortnight. Government Departments constantly make confidential inquiries in financial matters. It is well known the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to make confidential inquiries before he introduces the Budget. There would have been no difficulty. The right hon. Gentleman could have made confidential inquiries at the outset.

    I believe the real truth is he never intended commutation at all, and it was only when he found his supporters were beginning to dislike the Bill very much, and he had to do something to meet their indignation, that he ultimately made this proposal in order to appease the party which the hon. Member for Carmarthen Boroughs (Mr. Llewelyn Williams) has described as "the party of private secretaries." I do not know how many private secretaries there are on the other side of the House, but they seem to be sufficiently numerous to terrify the Home Secretary. If this commutation is really honest and straightforward, as I hope it will be, it will obviously, I will not say be a great boon to the Church, because it will certainly not give them anything they have not got, but it will make the business aspect of the thing and the transaction easier and less harmful to the Church. It is in that sense an advantage to Church people. I do think the Government before introducing a Bill of this kind ought to have had the scheme perfectly ready. The right hon. Gentleman says he could not put it into the Bill until he knew whether the Church was prepared to accept it, but he ought to have had it cut and dried. He would then have been able to have told us what the liability was, instead of asking us to accept a Resolution, the liability under which is purely a matter of guess work, depending upon the acceptance or rejection of a scheme we have not yet seen. Having made that criticism, I must say the right hon. Gentleman has, at any rate, treated us with every courtesy and consideration, and he has told us he hopes to produce it within the next few days. I therefore admit my grievance is not very serious under the circumstances.

    I was glad to hear the concluding observation of the Noble Lord, because I do think it is really unfair to complain of any delay on the part of the Government in regard to financial questions depending upon the acceptance of the commutation scheme. The Noble Lord must know we on this side of the House thought the provisions of the Bill as introduced were designed in the interests of the Church, to make the transition period from an Established Church to a Disestablished Church as easy as possible for the organisation in which he is interested, and I should like him to remember that we on this side of the House said not one word against the acceptance of the commutation scheme. We are not responsible for the provisions in the Bill for gradual Disendowment. The moment the Government signified they were willing to entertain proposals for a commutation scheme coming from this side of the House, and approved on that side of the House, we Welsh Members raised no objection at all to that basis of settlement. It is a little ungracious now, I think, on the part of hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House to complain of any delay in regard to a full and complete statement of the financial proposals of the Bill, and, as I have said, I am glad the Noble Lord has seen that point already.

    I did not get up to deal with the commutation scheme. It is perfectly obvious the House at the present moment is not in a position to criticise any details, or really to consider the validity or worth of any argument founded upon the amount of money it may be necessary to raise in order to carry out Disendowment upon the commutation basis, if it should be the ultimate verdict of the House. I should like to say a word or two in reference to the observations of the hon. Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks). I should certainly not complain of his making criticisms in regard to this Financial Resolution. I notice, experienced though he is in these matters, he appears to have fallen into a not uncommon error in his criticism upon Clause 10. He evidently thought because certain words in Clause 10 were italicised it therefore became necessary to have a Financial Resolution in Committee and upon Report in order that the Bill might pass. It must not be supposed, simply because there are words such as "£1,500 a year" italicised in Clause 10 in accordance with the practice of this House in printing its Bills, that a charge is necessarily imposed which requires a Financial Resolution.

    I do not think I did say that by reason of the fact that the words were italicised any Resolution was requisite. I said that as the Welsh Commissioners will have no money in their hands at the beginning, their salaries will have to be paid to some extent out of the proceeds of a loan; that loan requires the Treasury guarantee, and that guarantee requires a Financial Resolution. Therefore pro tanto,so far as the salaries of the Commissioners are paid out of a loan, we ought really to have a Financial Resolution.

    I said the hon. Member was very experienced in these matters. He was not, then, misled by the italics in Clause 10. It makes it the more surprising he should have committed himself to the proposition that the real meaning of the Resolution was the country was to pay for Disestablishment and Disendowment. After explaining, I think with accuracy, the provisions of Clause 10, he suddenly jumped to the strange conclusion that the country is to pay for Disestablishment and Disendowment. That, with great deference to the hon. Member, is not a true conclusion to draw either from Clause 10 or from Clause 29. The important Sub-section is Subsection (6):—

    "The said salaries and remuneration and all incidental expenses sanctioned by the Treasury"—

    the Treasury keep control; that does not affect the ultimate financial liability—

    "of carrying this Act into effect shall be paid by the Commissioners out of moneys in their hands in pursuance of this Act, but not so as in any way to diminish the property to be transferred to the representative body or county councils under this Act."

    We will drop for a moment the question of borrowing. Let us see how the matter stands. By Clause 4 the Welsh Commissioners get possession of a large amount of property, and by Clause 8 that property is distributed. I wish to lay down a further proposition here that in Clause 10 and subsequent Clauses we are dealing with the basis of distribution; but taking Sub-section (6) of Clause 10 in conjunction with the Clauses already passed, the position of the Welsh Commissioners is this, that they can only pay their own salaries and incidental expenses out of property which is subject to the provisions of this Act. Now let us turn to Clause 29. There they are subject to the sanction of the Treasury. The Welsh Commissioners can only borrow on such terms as the Treasury may approve. If we had only to consider the mere carrying out of the provisions of the Bill in the way in which it was proposed and as the Bill was brought in, it really would not seem such an important matter. But it is quite different, because there comes in the question of asking the guarantee of the Treasury even for a very small sum. The hon. Member for Brentford should not have said that the country was being called upon to pay a single penny for Disestablishment and Disendowment. The hon. Member says you are paying out our money—that is, the Church money. But that is not so. It is not fair to make that proposition and to say that the expense of carrying out the Bill is to be paid out of Church money. The whole of the expense of the Bill, as matters stand, is to be borne by the Welsh nation. I do not think it was fair to give expression to the statement that the expenses of Disestablishment and Disendowment are being paid for by the taxpayers of England. In all sincerity I wish hon. Gentlemen opposite to understand that while we acquiesce in the provisions of this Bill, that we propose Endowment with reluctance, and that we have from the first held that a Royal Commission should be appointed to settle the basis in which it should be carried out.

    The speech to which we have just listened appears to entirely justify the attitude taken up by my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford, when he said it was possible and even probable that part, of the cost of carrying into effect this Bill, would fall on the State. I think it clearly follows that that will be so. The Welsh Commissioners are to be appointed at once. Disendowment cannot take place for at least six months and, possibly, twelve months. How are they going to be paid in the interval? The money will have to be borrowed, but there will be no property which can be offered as a guarantee, and therefore it seems to me that the burden will have to be borne by the State. As has been pointed out, the salaries and remuneration and all incidental expenses sanctioned by the Treasury of carrying this Act into effect, are to be paid by the Commissioners out of moneys in their hands, but not so as in any way to diminish the property to be transferred to the representative body or county councils under this Act. That shows that the money to be used for this purpose must come out of what I may call the capitular assets of the Commissioners; they are not to use parochial money or money in the nature of private benefaction. On the top of that we have to wait until every bishop, dean, or canon, or some member of the capitular body disappears from this Clause, and we may have to wait some time, for these gentlemen are long-lived, and they have existing interests and no immediate inducement to disappear. Therefore, you may have to borrow a considerable sum on the Treasury's guarantee. It is all very well for the Home Secretary to say that there will be no claim upon the State. There might have to be a payment, and in any case the State is rendering itself liable.

    May I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman whether he is under the impression that the Welsh Commissioners must be appointed immediately after the Bill comes into operation, and, if so, what they have got to do until the date of Disestablishment?

    I imagine they will have an enormous amount of work to do. The Insurance Commissioners were appointed long before the Insurance Act came into operation, and I believe they have not had too long in which to get ready. I imagine the Welsh Commissioners will certainly have to be appointed at once in order to get ready. In the meantime, it is clear that they can have no money in their possession out of which to pay their salaries, and that they will have to pay them out of the money which comes from the bishops or deans or canons out of the capitular estates. The right hon. Gentleman tries to prove too much when he tries to prove that no charge can fall upon the State, for in any case there is that liability. As to the point whether the Commissioners are to be appointed immediately, I am not an authority on this Bill, and I do not know what is in the minds of the Government. Perhaps the Chancellor of the Duchy or the Under-Secretary will tell us. I should have thought that if the names were ready to be put into the Bill they would be appointed at once. I do not see how they can carry out their duties if their appointment is postponed until the date of Disestablishment. It is very awkward that we should not have yet any details of the proposed scheme of commutation. I have looked at the words of the Financial Re-solution, and I recognise that they will cover either a very big operation, which will be necessary if we have commutation, or a comparatively small one, which is all that will be necessary if there is no commutation. It is certainly awkward when the Government are asking powers for an almost unlimited period that we should not in the least know what is intended. I do not want to quarrel with the Home Secretary on this matter, because he made a very fair statement, and it is only fair that he should consult the actuaries of the Ecclesiastical Commission and Queen Anne's Bounty, but I think we have the ground of complaint urged by my Noble Friend (Lord Robert Cecil) when he said that the Government, in preparing the Bill, ought to have considered commutation to start with. To expect us now to pass this particular Financial Resolution without knowing whether or not there is to be commutation, and, if there is to be commutation, to what extent it is to go, whether it is to be voluntary or compulsory, and what is the sum that will be involved, is putting the House into a very inconvenient position.

    In one respect I rather differ from my hon. Friend (Mr. Joynson-Hicks). I should like to have extended the Financial Resolution in one respect, because I think it would be fair not only that the State should guarantee a loan raised by the Welsh Commissioners, but that they should also guarantee a loan raised by the representative body. I am afraid I am rather too late for that, and that I ought to have moved that Amendment to the Resolution earlier, but the matter can, no doubt, be considered later. I ask the Government whether they have any objection to such a proposition. They know that one of the proposals contained in the Bill is that the Church body should buy the glebe. Originally they had to buy all the glebe but that has been altered. For that purpose it seems to me it might be exceedingly useful that the new organisation of the Church or the representative body should have the right to borrow. If they had that right it would be of material assistance to them. At all events, that is a suggestion I wish to put forward. Whether it can be done under this Financial Resolution I do not know. I rather gather not but perhaps the Government will consider whether they can amend the Financial Resolution, or, at all events, bear the point in mind. I do not know I have any other points to raise, but I certainly do wish that the Government had told us what their plan of commutation was before we had to discuss this Resolution.

    The hon. and gallant Member who spoke last seemed to be under the impression that the Commissioners will be appointed immediately after the passing of this Bill, and before the date of Disestablishment. That is not my reading of the Bill, and as I understand the interruption of my right hon. Friend (Sir D. Brynmor Jones) that is not his interpretation of the Bill either. If reference is made to Clause 4 it will be seen that the property is to vest in the Commissioners only after the date of Disestablishment. The Commissioners will have nothing to do until the released funds are vested in them. That is only after the date of Disestablishment. Therefore there is no necessity why the Commissioners should be appointed before the date of Disestablishment. There is nothing in Clause 10 which fixes the date of the appointment of the Commissioners. The matter is left at large in that Clause. Therefore, reading Clause 10 and Clause 4 together, I fail to see why their appoint- ment should date before the day of Disestablishment, and there will be no liability falling upon anybody, or upon the Government, or any Department to provide for the payment of their salaries until after the date of Disestablishment.

    Will the hon. and learned Member on that point refer to Clause 10, Sub-section (7)? It says:—

    "The powers of the Commissioners shall continue until the end of the year in which this Act is passed."

    It is perfectly clear from that that the Bill contemplates the immediate appointment of the Commissioners, and that they shall act as soon as the Bill is passed.

    It does not state when the powers of the Commissioners shall begin. The date must be fixed by reference to Clause 4, which says that the property shall vest in the Commissioners after the date of Disestablishment. What can the Commissioners have to do before the property is vested in them? That is my reading of the Bill, for what it is worth. I was amazed to hear the hon. Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks), with his large experience in these matters, say that Disestablishment will cost the taxpayer a single penny. At the most, supposing there is commutation, and supposing that a sum of £2,000,000 will have to be borrowed on the guarantee of the British Treasury, that does not mean that the taxpayer will have to pay a penny. It is true that the credit of the Treasury will be at stake, but not the credit of the taxpayers. The hon. Member is very fair on financial matters as apart from his prejudice in favour of the Church, and so on, and I am sure he will agree that in reality not a penny piece is taken out of any taxpayer's pocket by any proposal contained in the Bill or any proposal which has been adumbrated in regard to commutation.

    But there is one matter upon which I should like to have further information. It is very relevant to the discussion of this Financial Resolution. I think we are entitled to have some idea as to the value of the private advowsons which are to be compensated for under the Bill. I suppose the compensation will have to be paid out of a fund which will have to be borrowed for the purpose. The Home Secretary said it would be a very few thousand pounds, indeed so small a sum that it was hardly worth while mentioning in connection with this Resolution. I take it that really if commutation fails, the bulk of the money borrowed under the powers of the Financial Resolution will go to pay for the private advowsons. Therefore, if I am correct in that, I think the House is entitled to know now, or in the course of a few days, what the estimate of the Treasury may be as to the amount of money which will be paid as compensation for these private advowsons. There are practically 300 of these. If the average is only, say, £150 a year—I think, that is low enough for each one—that would mean that a sum of £45,000 would have to be borrowed under the powers of this Financial Resolution in order to compensate the owners of these 299 private advowsons. That is important not only from the point of view of this Financial Resolution, but it is important, too, for us Welsh Members and for the Welsh people whom we represent, that we should know exactly what the financial position will be when this Bill is through. We have never taken that into account at all in estimating what the financial position the Welsh Commissioners, as representing the Welsh people, will be after the date of Disestablishment. It is a thing that we can get actual figures for, because the compensation to be paid under the Bill is for not more than one year, so that we can give the outside figure. The figures are definite, and we ought to be able to ascertain very easily the yearly value of these advowsons, and therefore we should get some estimate at least as to the outside amount which would have to be paid in compensation.

    9.0 P.M.

    But there is another matter which is relevant to this Financial Resolution. I suppose that the lay officers of the Church who will have to be compensated under the Act, will be compensated out of a fund which will be borrowed under the terms of this Financial Resolution. Again, I think we are entitled on both sides of the House to know whether the Treasury can form any estimate at all as to the amount of money which will have to be paid in compensation for these offices. I have no doubt it will be very difficult for them to do so, and I do not think anyone will expect a very accurate or a very definite figure to be given. For my own part, I do not hold the Treasury responsible for anything except a very rough estimate as to the amount, but we ought to get an estimate with some degree of accuracy. With re- gard to commutation, this is not the time to discuss that. I will only say that the Welsh Members have never been wedded to the partial Disendowment Clauses of the Bill as it was introduced, and, speaking for myself, I thought the Bill was introduced in that form because it was more acceptable to the Church. We are quite willing to assent to that if it is more acceptable to the Church people in Wales. If we are wrong in that assumption, we again are equally willing to accept some such proposal for commutation as has been suggested by the Home Secretary, but I wish to guard myself against acceptance of any terms in the dark. We must have time to consider them, and we hold ourselves quite as free as hon. Members opposite to discuss them on their merits. There should be no profit and no loss to anyone. Certainly, if a commutation proposal is going to be made which will result in a loss to the Welsh people, I for one would be no party to its acceptance.

    Rather an interesting point has arisen out of this Debate on the Financial Resolution, in which there seems to be a very considerable difference of opinion. The Home Secretary told us the Financial Resolution was not required for Clause 10 for the payment of the Welsh Commissioners' salaries, but, as I read that Clause, I cannot understand how they are going to be paid at all without being paid out of some kind of public money—at any rate during the first year. The right hon. Gentleman (Sir D. Brynmor Jones) and the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Llewelyn Williams) take the view that the Welsh Commissioners do not come into possession till the date of Disestablishment. That seems to me to be absolutely contrary to a considerable number of Clauses in the Bill. My hon. Friend has quoted Sub-section (7) of Clause 10, in which it is stated that "The powers of the Commissioners shall continue till the end of the year, in which this Act is passed and three years thereafter." Therefore, they must be appointed at the time when the Act is passed. If that is not sufficient proof, what about Clause 9?

    "The Welsh Commissioners shall, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, with respect to any ecclesiastical parish part only whereof is situate in Wales or Monmouthshire,"

    and so on. They have got to decide immediately after the passing of the Act about these border parishes and all the 'difficulties connected with them. If that is not enough proof, the right hon. Gentleman has only to look at Clause 7, Subjection (2):—

    "The Ecclesiastical Commissioners and Queen Anne's Bounty as respects any property transferred from them respectively, and the Welsh Commissioners as respects any other property vested in them by this Act, shall as soon as may be after the passing of this Act ascertain and by order declare what part of the property constitutes private benefactions within the meaning of this Act."

    Can the right hon. Gentleman still contend that the Commissioners are not to be appointed until the date of Disestablishment? It is perfectly clear from these three quotations that they are to be appointed at the date of the passing of this Act. Well then, if this Money Resolution is not required for them, how are they going to be paid? Are they going to work for nothing during the first year or, if not, how are they going to be paid? They can only be paid by the Government advancing money to pay them. They have no money in their hands, I am not sure that they would borrow for themselves. At any rate, there are two Gentlemen now on the Treasury Bench, and I think we are entitled to ask them to clear up the misconception raised by the hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen as to the date at which the Welsh Commissioners are to come into office, and also to tell the House how, without the use of public money, they are to be paid between the passing of the Act, if it docs pass, and the date of Disestablishment.

    I wish to ask one or two questions with regard to the Financial Resolution. I should like first of all to say that the speech of the hon. Member for the Swansea District (Sir D. Brynmor Jones) seemed to mc a very illuminating one. He started with the idea that he was going to show that this was not going to be a charge upon the National Exchequer. Then he realised as he went on, it seemed to me, that if he was going to show that it was not a charge upon the National Exchequer, he was bound to come to the conclusion that it was to come out of Church property. Then he began to realise that that would not be quite satisfactory to hon. Members on this side, and to some hon. Members on the other side. He once again shifted his ground by stating that it would be a charge, not upon the Church, or the National Exchequer, but upon the people of Wales. I am not quite sure whether the people of Wales, who for some time looked upon themselves as a separate nation, would be inclined to admit that payment of these expenses, coming as they do out of property which has now been taken from the Church for the nation of Wales, is not national expenditure. I should like to ask one or two questions with regard to the expenses to be met out of this money which is to be borrowed. I am not quite clear how it is proposed to raise this money, whether it is to be raised by Exchequer bonds, or whether it is to be issued as a loan. I wish to know from the Home Secretary whether, when he enumerated the three main expenditures—salaries and commissions, compensation to lay officers, and compensation to the owners of advowsons—he thought he had exhausted the objects upon which this money should be spent.

    My hon. Friend the Member for the Oswestry Division (Mr. Bridgeman) referred to certain Clauses of the Bill and pointed out that the Welsh Commissioners were going to be appointed at the date of the passing of the Act. I wish to point out, further, that there are expenses which will have to be borne in bringing the Act into operation and which have not been enumerated by the Home Secretary. You have got under the Act to carry out certain operations in order to ascertain whether or not the border parishes are to come within the scope of the Bill. Are these expenses to be met out of the money raised on the guarantee of this Financial Resolution? I do not suppose they will be very heavy, but, at any rate, a certain sum will have to be found for this purpose. May I further bring to the notice of the Chancellor of the Duchy the question of the expenses which will have to be borne by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and to some extent by Queen Anne's Bounty, as a result of the Bill? The Ecclesiastical Commissioners will have to undertake a considerable number of inquiries in order to find out what is Church property and what is Welsh property as the result of this Bill. I do not know whether it is supposed that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners can carry out that work and make those inquiries with their present staff. I do not think it is likely that they will be able to do so with their present staff. This is all extra work put upon them, and it has got to be done within a comparatively short time. It is perfectly clear to me that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and Queen Anne's Bounty will have to undertake a great deal of extra work as a result of the Bill, and it is not, to my mind, fair that they should have to find out of their common funds the money necessary to carry out these inquiries. I think the expenses ought to be provided out of the money to be guaranteed under this Resolution. These points in regard to the expenses of this Act were not mentioned by the Home Secretary. I should like to get an answer from the Chancellor of the Duchy as to whether or not these expenses are to be found out of the money to be raised by the guarantee we are now giving. I do not think it would be fair to make the Ecclesiastical Commissioners find the extra money which will have to be spent as the result of the Bill we are now discussing.

    My hon. Friend (Mr. Mount), in his interesting speech, referred to the people of Wales as once a nation. If a nation may be properly described as a belligerent unit, we may believe that Wales is not only a potential but an actual belligerent unit at this moment, though I learned from the hon. Member for Carmarthen that harmony reigns between him and his Leader, for he addressed him by that name. I wish to ask the Home Secretary if the Government are prepared to say that the Welsh Commissioners will not be appointed until they have in their hands moneys which are to come to them in pursuance of the Act. Will either of the Gentlemen now on the Treasury Bench get up and make that statement? I gather that they cannot. On the other hand, if the Resolution before the House is to empower the Government to borrow money for the purpose of carrying on until there is money in the hands of the Welsh Commissioners in pursuance of the Act, then they seem to be on the horns of a dilemma. I confess that I do not see the answer to the question I have asked. No such statement has been made, and it is perfectly obvious that under Clause 10 the immediate appointment of the Welsh Commissioners was contemplated. Indeed, when the Clause was reached in Committee it was believed up to the last moment that the names of the Welsh Commissioners to be appointed would then be divulged. The Government were to have announced the names of the Commissioners, and there was no question whatsoever until then but that they were to be appointed directly the Act was passed. Will the right hon. or the hon. Gentleman state plainly whether it is the intention not to appoint the Commissioners until there is money to work the Act, and, if not, why is it necessary to take power to borrow for the purpose? My hon. Friend pointed out that one of the first things they have to do is to deal with these difficult geographical questions of the Border, and other Clauses might be quoted to show that the intention of the Government was to appoint the Commissioners at once. Will the Front Bench vouchsafe any information upon this point?

    I have been asked several questions, which I shall be glad to answer. My right hon. Friend behind me, in the course of his reply to some statements made from the benches opposite, pointed out that there is no power taken in the Act to compel, the moment the Act passes, the appointment of the Welsh Commissioners—that was as far as my right hon. Friend went—because it is quite clear to anybody conversant with this measure that there is a great deal of work to do after the passing of the Act, before the date of Disestablishment, which will require the appointment of Commissioners. But the view of hon. Gentlemen opposite that the Welsh Commissioners will have to be appointed at an early date is quite correct. The hon. Member for Carmarthen Boroughs (Mr. Llewelyn Williams) said something about compensation to lay patrons and lay officers. He is approximately right in the figure which he gave as to lay patrons whose livings may be compensated, for there may be some who take the view that really they have no right to compensation at all. I very much doubt whether, from an equitable point of view, they have or not, but they have a legal right, and as regards the outside number of persons thus compensated, 290 or 300, the compensation due to them under the terms of the Bill would be strictly confined to one year's value of the emoluments. With regard to the question of lay officers, they are only compensated to the extent to which they are damnified by the Bill, and I do not think it will be necessary to raise any sum to meet the compensations due to them, because they may drop in ten in one year, five in another year, none the next, and so on; and therefore, we think it possible to compensate them out of revenue. The sum involved may not be large, and it need not enter into a calculation for the purposes of a loan. The hon. Member for Shropshire (Mr. Bridgeman) asked as to the payment of the Welsh Commissioners. He seems to think there would be considerable difficulty. I do not think so. If he looks at Sub-section (2), Clause 29, he will see that the National Debt Commissioners, if they think fit, may out of any money in their hands advance to the Welsh Commissioners any money which by this Act they are authorised to borrow.

    I do not see how it is going to be done without using public money. That is exactly what this Subsection does.

    I think that the hon. Gentleman implied that there would be a charge to the public in relation to that money.

    No, because there would be interest payable on that money, and the whole thing would be repaid, without any loss to the taxpayer, to the National Debt Commissioners. If a private individual borrows money from a bank and that money is repaid with interest to that bank, there is no loss to anyone who advances it. The Welsh Commissioners may borrow money from the National Debt Commissioners, and when they pay interest and repay the money there is no charge on the public in reference to the transaction.

    The right hon. Gentleman did not read the words—

    "with such guarantee as is by this Act authorised (but not otherwise)."

    Our contention is that the guarantee of the Treasury is in effect a charge upon the taxpayers, a potential charge. That is the whole point.

    And even if they were the sum in respect of it would be at the outside £3,000 or £4,000 for the salary of the Welsh Commissioners and their staff, and the effect on the credit of the country of borrowing £3,000 for one year at 4 per cent., would be so infinitesimal that so eminent a mathematician as the hon. Gentleman would be quite unable to estimate the loss. The hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Mount) asked what what was to be done with regard to the expenses of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and Queen Anne's Bounty. I do not see that any extra expense need be provided for either of those two bodies. They have already prepared a great deal of the information which they will have to give to the Welsh Commissioners for the purpose of the Royal Commission on the Church in Wales. I do not suppose they have prepared the whole of it, but they have prepared the greater part of it. They have already had a year's notice that this Bill was going to be brought in, and I imagine that some portion at all events of their time would be spent in preparation for the probable results of this Bill. There would be as far as one can gather some time elapsing between the passing of this Bill from this House until ultimately it

    Division No. 537.]


    [9.25 p.m.

    Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)Denman, Hon. Richard DouglasHobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.
    Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)Devlin, JosephHodge, John
    Adamson, WilliamDillon, JohnHogge, James Myles
    Agnew, Sir George WilliamDonelan, Captain A.Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
    Ainsworth, John StirlingDoris, WilliamHudson, Walter
    Alden, PercyDuffy, William J.Hughes, Spencer Leigh
    Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Illingworth, Percy H.
    Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus
    Arnold, SydneyEdwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)John, Edward Thomas
    Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea)
    Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)
    Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)
    Barnes, George N.Essex, Sir Richard WalterJones, Leif Straiten (Notts, Rushcliffe)
    Barton, WilliamFarrell, James PatrickJones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)
    Beck, Arthur CecilFenwick, Rt. Hon. CharlesJoyce, Michael
    Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)Ffrench, PeterKeating, Matthew
    Bentham, George JacksonField, WilliamKellaway, Frederick George
    Black, Arthur W.Fitzgibbon, JohnKennedy, Vincent Paul
    Boland, John PiusFlavin, Michael JosephKilbride, Denis
    Booth, Frederick HandelGilhooly, JamesKing, J.
    Bowerman, Charles W.Gill, Alfred HenryLambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)
    Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)Gladstone, W. G. C.Lardner, James Carrige Rushe
    Brace, WilliamGlanville, H. J.Law, Hugh A. (Donegal. West)
    Brady, P. J.Goldstone, FrankLawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)
    Brocklehurst, William B.Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)Leach, Charles
    Brunner, John F, L.Greig, Colonel J. W.Levy, Sir Maurice
    Bryce, John AnnanGriffith, Ellis JonesLewis, John Herbert
    Burke, E. Haviland-Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)Lundon, Thomas
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnGulland, John W.Lynch, Arthur Alfred
    Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasGwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)McGhee, Richard
    Cawley, H. T. (Lanes., Heywood)Hackett, J.MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)
    Chapple, Dr. William AllenHall, Frederick (Normanton)Macpherson, James Ian
    Clancy, John JosephHancock, John GeorgeMacVeagh, Jeremiah
    Clough, WilliamHarcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossenda'le)M'Callum, Sir John M.
    Clynes, J. R,Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)M'Kean, John
    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
    Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)
    Cotton, William FrancisHarvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lines.,Spaldl.ig)
    Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Markham, Sir Arthur Basil
    Crooks, WilliamHavelock-Allan, Sir HenryMarks, Sir George Croydon
    Crumley, PatrickHayden, John PatrickMartin, J.
    Cullinan, JohnHazleton, RichardMason, David M. (Coventry)
    Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)Helme, Sir Norval WatsonMasterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.
    Davies, E. William (Eifion)Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)Meagher, Michael
    Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)Henry, Sir Charles S.Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
    Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)Molloy, Michael
    Dawes, James ArthurHigham, John SharpMolteno, Percy Alport
    Delany, WilliamHinds, JohnMorgan, George Hay

    emerges from the chrysalis stage to the full-blown stage of an Act of Parliament. During that time some portion of the time of the staff might be devoted to acquiring the rest of the information which is required, and I do not see any need under this Bill for all these bodies to incur extra expense of an appreciable kind. In the circumstances I do not think we need charge anything for such expenses.

    So far as that would be an expense of the Welsh Commissioners it would be part and parcel of the expenses payable from the same funds as the other expenses, which would be the £26,700.

    Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

    The House divided: Ayes, 235; Noes, 103.

    Morison, Hector Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
    Morton, Alpheus CleophasReddy, Michael Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)
    Muldoon, JohnRedmond, John E. (Waterford)Thomas, James Henry
    Munro, RobertRedmond, William (Clare, E.)Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
    Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)Thorne, William (West Ham)
    Nellson, FrancisHernall, AthelstanToulmin, Sir George
    Nolan, JosephRichardson, Albion (Peckham)Verney, Sir Harry
    Norman, Sir HenryRichardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Wadsworth, J.
    Norton, Captain Cecil WilliamRoberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)
    Nuttall, HarryRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)Walton, Sir Joseph
    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)Wardle, George J.
    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Robinson, SidneyWatt, Henry A.
    O'Donnell, ThomasRoch, Walter F.White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
    O'Dowd, JohnRoche, Augustine (Louth)White, Patrick (Meath, North)
    O'Grady, JamesRoche, John (Galway, E.)Whitehouse, John Howard
    O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)Roe, Sir ThomasWhittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)Rowlands, JamesWhyte, A. F. (Perth)
    O'Malley, WilliamRowntree, ArnoldWilkie, Alexander
    O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.Scanlan, ThomasWilliams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
    O'Shee, James JohnSeely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)
    O'Sullivan, TimothySheehy, DavidWilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Outhwaite, R. L.Sherwell, Arthur JamesWinfrey, Richard
    Parker, James ((Halifax)Smith, Albert (Lanes, Clitheroe)Wood, Rt. Hon. T, McKinnon (Glas.)
    Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)
    Pearce, William (Limehouse)Snowden, PhilipYoung, William (Perth, East)
    Phillips, John (Longford, S.)Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir AlbertYoxall, Sir James Henry
    Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
    Pringle, William M. R.Sutton, John E.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. William Jones and Mr. Webb.

    Raffan, Peter WilsonTaylor, John W. (Durham)
    Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry


    Agg-Gardner, James TynteGoldman, C. S.Peel, Captain R. F.
    Balcarres, LordGordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)Perkins, Walter F.
    Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeGoulding, Edward AlfredPeto- Basil Edward
    Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)Grant, James AugustusPollock, Ernest Murray
    Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)Pryce-Jones Col. E. (Montgom'y B'ghs)
    Barnston, H.Helmsley, ViscountRees, Sir J. D.
    Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc.)Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
    Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)Hewins, William Albert SamuelSalter, Arthur Clavell
    Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh HicksHickman, Col. T. E.Sanders, Robert A.
    Beresford, Lord C.Hill, Sir ClementSanderson, Lancelot
    Bigland, AlfredHoare, Samuel John GurneySandys, George John
    Bird, AlfredHope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)Smith, Harold (Warrington)
    Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. GriffithHope. James Fitzalan (Sheffield)Spear, Sir John Ward
    Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)Houston, Robert PatersonStanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
    Boyton, J.Hume-Williams, William EllisStrauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)
    Bridgeman, W. CliveIngleby, HolcombeSwift, Rigby
    Burn, Colonel C. R.Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)
    Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)
    Campion, W. R.Kimber, Sir HenryTalbot, Lord E.
    Carilie, Sir Edward HildredLane-Fox, G. R.Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)
    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Larmor, Sir J.Thynne, Lord Alexander
    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)Touche, George Alexander
    Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)Lewisham, ViscountValentia, Viscount
    Clive, Captain Percy ArcherLockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.Walrond, Hon. Lionel
    Clyde, James AvonMacmaster, DonaldWarde, Col. C. E, (Kent, Hid)'
    Courthope, George LoydMagnus, Sir PhilipWheler, Granville C. H.
    Crichton-Stuart, Lord NinianMalcolm, IanWhite, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport)
    Cripps, Sir C. A.Mason, James F. Windsor)Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
    Doughty, Sir GeorgeMills, Hon. Charles ThomasWills, Sir Gilbert
    Duke, Henry EdwardMount, William ArthurWolmer, Viscount
    Eyres-Monsell, B. M.Newton, Harry KottinghamWood, John (Stalybridge)
    Fell, ArthurNicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)Younger, Sir George
    Fletcher, John SamuelNield, Herbert
    Forster, Henry WilliamOrmsby-Gore, Hon. William

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Joynson-Hicks and Mr. Stanier.

    Gardner, ErnestPease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
    Gilmour, Captain John

    Bill further considered in Committee.

    [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

    Clause 29—(Borrowing Powers)

    (1) The Welsh Commissioners may, with the consent of the Treasury, and upon such terms as the Treasury may approve, borrow such sums of money as they may think expedient for carrying into effect any provisions of this Act, and may, save as otherwise expressly provided by this Act, give as security for the repayment of any sums so borrowed and the interest thereon, any part of the property vested in them by this Act, but shall determine as between the several parts of property so-given as security the part or parts to be primarily liable for the several sums so borrowed.

    (2) The National Debt Commissioners, if they think fit, may, out of any money in their hands, advance to the Welsh Commissioners, with such guarantee as is by this Act authorised (but not otherwise), any money which by this Act the Welsh Commissioners are authorised to borrow.

    (3) The Treasury may, if they think fit, guarantee the payment of the principal and interest of all or any part of any money borrowed by the Welsh Commissioners.

    (4) Any security given by the Welsh Commissioners in pursuance of this Act shall be in such form, and may contain such powers of sale or otherwise, as the Treasury approve, and there shall be certified thereon, in such form and manner as the Treasury direct, any guarantee given by the Treasury.

    (5) For giving effect to the guarantee aforesaid, the Treasury, in aid of any money applicable under this Act for payment of principal and interest for the time being accrued due in respect of any money borrowed by the Welsh Commissioners in pursuance of this Act, may cause to be issued out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom, or the growing produce thereof, such sums as may be necessary for payment of the said principal and interest, or of any part thereof respectively.

    (6) If any money is at any time issued out of the Consolidated Fund in pursuance of the guarantee aforesaid, the Treasury shall cause the same to be repaid to the Consolidated Fund out of the funds in the hands of the Welsh Commissioners.

    I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out from the word "Act" ["provisions of this Act"] to the end of the Sub-section.

    I think the Committee will see that this is a very simple point; at the same time it is a very important point which I am now raising. Under the words which I propose to leave out the Welsh Commissioners could impose mortgages or raise loans upon any property which comes into their hands. As the Committee is aware, all the property which is now vested in the Welsh Church will be transferred to them when the Bill comes into operation. They might charge property like the parsonage houses, or glebes which come from benefactions, with mortgages and with other charges, and then transfer those properties, as they have to do under the provisions of the Bill, to the representative body, with those charges and obligations upon them. That would be a very serious-and unfair thing to happen, and I am not sure that it is altogether unlikely, for in the first place, I should like to know why this proviso is in the Clause at all. I think I am correct in saying, that in the Bill of 1895 there was no such proviso. I think we should therefore have some explanation as to why those lines are in the Clause at all. Secondly, my suspicions are the further increased, because we do not know who the Welsh Commissioners are going to be. If we knew who they were going to be, and if we were convinced that they were persons in whom we could place confidence then I should say that the suspicion which I feel would not be justified. As it is, since we do not know who those gentlemen will be, we have every right to feel considerable anxiety lest the Welsh Commissioners will transfer to the representative body, or may transfer to the representative body, property with charges and obligations which the representative body will have to meet. I hope, therefore, that the Chancellor of the Duchy will be able to reassure me and to convince the Committee that that is not the intention of this Clause, and, if it is so, that he will put words in the Clause which will have the effect of stating explicitly that when the Welsh Commissioners transfer property to the representative body they will not be able to-transfer it with obligations and charges upon it.

    The object of the Clause is entirely in agreement with the object which has been stated by the hon. Gentleman. If he looks at the effect of his Amendment I think he will see that it goes a great deal further than the object he has in view. It would strike out the following words, which are very important words:—

    "May, save as otherwise expressly provided by this Act, give as security for the repayment of any sums so borrowed and the interest thereon any part of the property vested in them by this Act."

    If those words were struck out, while it is true that the Welsh Commissioners might by the opening words borrow, they would be prevented from charging on any property which they held for the repayment of the sum which they so borrowed. The real intention of the hon. Member is to prevent the property which is to be transferred to the representative body being encumbered on its passage between the existing state of things through the Welsh Commissioners to the representative body. I think that intention is covered entirely by the words "save as otherwise expressly provided by this Act." That phrase refers, first of all, to Clause 10, Sub-section (6), which prevents the Commissioners in any way diminishing the property to be transferred to the representative body for any cost in respect of the salaries and so forth of the Welsh Commissioners themselves. Then in Clause 16, Sub-section (4), no compensation which is payable to lay patrons is to come out of the property which is to be transferred to the representative body, and in the same way under Clause 17, none of the compensation which is to be paid to holders of freeholds is in any way to be charged so that it will diminish the property to be handed over to the representative body. I think therefore we clear out of consideration all question of current expenses and of compensation, making it quite plain that none of those charges are to be paid on the property to be transferred to the representative Church body. I think that is agreed on both sides.

    On the other hand, during its passage through the Welsh Commission, some of the property belonging to the representative body might require money to be spent on it for its own advantage. I think it would not be unreasonable to permit the Welsh Commissioners to have that liberty, handing it on in its improved capacity. I do not say that will arise, but I say the possibility may arise, and I think if it does that it ought to be met. The Welsh Commissioners will be in existence for three years. During that time a case might conceivably arise in which it would be to the benefit of the representative body and the property concerned that a certain amount of money should be expended on it and raised on the security. If there is any doubt, though I do not think that there is, upon the freedom of the property so transferred to the representative body from being liable to a charge which is not strictly for its own benefit, and that will in any way diminish its value when it reaches the representative body, then I think we are all agreed words might be inserted. I do not see any necessity for it. I think the whole case is covered by the Clause as it stands, and, until a somewhat stronger case is made out for the insertion of any words, I see no necessity to put them in, and I certainly could not accept the proposed deletion of these words.

    This is a business matter, and we are much obliged for the business way in which the Chancellor of the Duchy has met the point. His suggestions, however, are not satisfactory if he listens to what we have to say to the Clause. As regards Clause 10, Sub-section (6), and Clause 16, Sub-section (4), and Clause 17, those Sub-sections and the limitations upon them as regards salaries and compensation do not meet the point we raise here at all. We quite agree that that compensation and those salaries cannot be charged against the proceeds of the property which is to go to the representative body in any way, but what this Clause proposes to do is something quite different from that—it gives the Welsh Commissioners power to borrow money on the security of all classes of property, including the property which is to be handed over to the representative body. I do not think the Chancellor of the Duchy will deny that. That is the Clause as it stands.

    The Commissioners have power not only to borrow but to charge the property with the redemption of the sum so borrowed. I cannot imagine that anybody would be so unwise as to advance money upon a security which they knew would not be in the hands of the Welsh Commissioners for more than a few months.