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Hunting Bill (Programme)

Volume 360: debated on Wednesday 20 December 2000

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10.18 pm

I beg to move,

That the following provisions shall apply to the Hunting Bill—
  • 1. Clauses 1 to 4 and any New Clauses shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House.
  • 2. The remainder of the Bill shall be committed to a Standing Committee.
  • 3.—
  • (1) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House shall be completed in one allotted day.
  • (2) An allotted day is one on which the Bill is put down as first Government Order of the Day.
  • 4. Sessional Order B (Programming Committees) made by the House on 7th November shall not apply to the Bill.
  • 5. Proceedings in the Standing Committee shall (unless previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Thursday 8th February 2001.
  • As the House may know, it was originally proposed that Second Reading should take place on Monday. For reasons unconnected with the Bill, those arrangements changed.

    In a way, I am a little disappointed. Had the Bill been discussed on Monday, the honour of proposing the first ever programme motion of this kind would have fallen to me, but the prize went to the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Hill), in connection with the Vehicles (Crime) Bill. The occasion turned out to be rather more eventful than had been expected, because there was some dispute about what had been agreed through the usual channels. Let there be no dispute this time: nothing has been agreed through the usual channels.

    I am conscious that we are in fairly new territory, and I therefore want to explain what the motion involves. I hope to be brief, as it is fairly straightforward. It provides for clauses 1 to 4, and any new clauses, to be taken on the Floor of the House. That is when the key decision will be made—the decision between the three schedules.

    When the matter comes to the Floor of the House, how much time will we have? Will debate be concluded at 10 o'clock or will it go beyond 10 o'clock?

    The day will be our normal parliamentary day, so I imagine that the debate will be curtailed, as usual, at 10 o'clock. No doubt the way in which the debate will be determined will be discussed through the usual channels. It is not for me to prejudge that. However, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman well knows, those discussions will doubtless take place in the usual way.

    All hon. Members should be able to participate in the choice, which is why we are taking the schedules on the Floor of the House in a day. We have allocated one day because that will be sufficient, and the Bill will be the first item of Government business on that day. On that occasion, the House will be asked to make a single decision on which option it favours, so setting aside a day seems appropriate.

    It is also worth noting that the decision on which option to adopt in the Sunday Trading Bill, the most recent example of an options Bill, was taken in a single day on the Floor of the House. Once the choice has been made, the detail of the chosen option needs to be scrutinised properly. Again, following the Sunday trading precedent, we believe that that should be done in Standing Committee. The motion requires that process to be completed by 8 February next year, and I shall explain why the Government believe that that is appropriate.

    I cannot predict on which day the full debate will take place on the Floor of the House. As I have indicated, that is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House and the usual channels. However, we anticipate that there will be about three weeks between that point and the date by which the Bill must complete its Committee stage. It is likely that the Committee will have to consider only one of the three options in the Bill. It has about three weeks to consider that option, which could mean 13 sittings—a sitting to consider the sittings motion and 12 more. To put that in context, the longest of the three schedules is about 17 pages long. By contrast, the Greater London Authority Bill—to take a recent example—was over 300 pages long. Anyone who believes that 12 sittings are insufficient to consider a maximum of 17 pages should, in that case, consider the length of time needed to consider a Bill of 300 pages. We would probably have to take a whole parliamentary Session.

    The hon. Gentleman was careful to use the words "17 pages", as opposed to specifying the number of paragraphs. The option for which the Home Secretary said he would vote contains 64 separate paragraphs. Is the Minister seriously telling the House that six Committee sittings—which is all that there would be in three weeks—are enough to deal with 64 paragraphs of a highly contentious schedule?

    As the right hon. Gentleman knows, there would be 12 sittings, since there are two sittings a day. In our view, that will be sufficient, and that is the basis on which we are asking the House to consider the motion.

    I am conscious that a lot of people want to speak, so if hon. Gentlemen will forgive me, I shall press on.

    In addition, and in accordance with Sessional Order C, a Programming Sub-Committee will be appointed to consider how the time in Standing Committee can be used most sensibly and efficiently. The motion before us proposes that, in the case of this Bill, we will dispense with a Programming Committee. There is a simple reason for that. As I have already mentioned, the Committee of the whole House will, in effect, be invited to make a single decision. It seems entirely probable that there will be a single debate on the options, followed by a series of Divisions. That being so, there would be no point in appointing a Programming Committee to decide how time on the Floor of the House should be allocated.

    The Bill before the House is cormplete. Apart from one amendment on commencement, to which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary referred in his opening speech on Second Reading, no Government amendments are envisaged. We see no reason why proper consideration of the Bill should not be possible in the time scale envisaged in the motion before the House. This is not a case of trying to rush the Bill through; it is simply a matter of setting a reasonable time scale for a measure that is not by any stretch of the imagination a long Bill.

    The Minister referred to the Greater London Authority Bill, and the fact that the Business Sub-Committee on that Bill, which I happened to chair, was able to agree, across the parties, the way in which the Bill should be handled in Standing Committee. I do not think that this Bill will get cross-party support. Is it not unfair to cite a Bill that had cross-party support in the Business Sub-Committee, and agreement as to how it should be handled in Standing Committee, in connection with this Bill, on which I do not think that agreement will be forthcoming?

    As the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, the House considers many controversial Bills. Discussions—which are perfectly amicable—are held in the usual way, and now in this new way. People disagree over the content of a Bill, but they are nevertheless prepared to ensure that the timing of discussion of that Bill gives everyone a fair chance to put their point of view. Programme motions are all about ensuring that Opposition Members as well as Labour Members have an opportunity to put their points of view. Programme motions are about providing certainty and letting the whole House know when particular business is to be debated, and when a particular stage of a Bill is to be completed. It also gives the Opposition the opportunity, if they choose to take it, to have some input into the process.

    I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way to me, and I hear what he says about the time scale. He said that there would probably be three weeks between the date of the Committee stage on the Floor of the House and the completion of the Committee stage upstairs. Why does he not specify in the motion that the Committee stage upstairs will be completed three weeks after the debate on the Floor of the House, rather than by a particular date? If the business managers find that the debate on the Floor of the House takes place only one day before the specified date, the three weeks will be up the chute. Will he make that change, so that the motion says that the debate should be three weeks later, rather than take place on a particular date?

    The hon. Gentleman has made his point, which no doubt will have been heard by the usual channels. However, those who represent the interests of his parties in the discussions will no doubt discuss with my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House and others how they wish this matter to be handled. If the Opposition are sensible about the way in which they want the measure debated, there is no reason why it should not be debated in a sensible way that gives everyone the opportunity to have their say.

    The motion before us will provide—

    On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is clear from that intervention—I had not spotted it myself—that the business motion is incorrectly drafted. It is not for the Minister to say that this is a matter for the usual channels, because the business is before the House and we are being invited to vote on the motion, which, as I understand it, is not amendable. The motion will be passed—but the Minister has accepted that there is a potential flaw in it. If the business managers decide not to have Report stage on the day suggested, the three weeks that the Minister has guaranteed will not be available. Therefore, unfortunately, and not for the first time, the business motion is not correctly drafted, if the Minister—whom I do not blame—has correctly described the Government's wishes.

    The right hon. Gentleman is not correct in saying that the motion is not amendable, as I have selected an amendment.

    Perhaps not, but matters dealt with through the usual channels are not a matter for me. They are matters for the usual channels.

    Order. The right hon. Gentleman does not tell anyone to sit down. I tell them to sit down.

    Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I accept your ruling. In the light of your correction about the motion being amendable, will you accept a manuscript amendment to implement the Minister's intention, which he has now stated to the House?

    The amendment under consideration has to be disposed of first. As for accepting a manuscript amendment, we shall have to see how things go.

    No. We are happy that the motion before the House will deal with the issues in the proper way. I can assure the right hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) that we are already having discussions with those on the Opposition Front Bench to determine an appropriate date—

    I have already told the right hon. Gentleman that I shall not give way to him.

    The way in which this matter can be debated should be discussed through the usual channels. Members on the Opposition Front Bench know perfectly well how that is done, and if they want to enable Conservative Members to have their say, they will no doubt co-operate in the usual way. The motion provides ample opportunity for the Bill to be properly considered in Committee, and I commend it to the House.

    10.30 pm

    I was genuinely shocked when the Minister said that the one thing that he regretted about the change of business this week was that it deprived him of what he termed the honour of moving the first programme motion under the new arrangements that the Government rammed through at the close of the previous Session. It was a cause for shame and disgrace rather than honour. His comments reminded me of the saying:

    The louder he talked of his honour, the faster we counted our spoons.
    In this programme motion and in others that the Government have brought before the House and that they plan for future legislation, they are stealing the rights of right hon. and hon. Members to represent the interests of their constituents and other outside bodies through detailed scrutiny of and comment on the contents of legislation.

    The programme motion has two themes, and I shall deal briefly with each of them. First, there is the committal to a Committee of the whole House on clauses 1 to 4 and new clauses. In his remarks, the Minister skipped lightly over the fact that the committal arrangements in the motion do not merely apply to the selection by the House of one of the three options embodied in the schedules, but cover any new clauses that hon. Members may table between this evening and the Bill's emergence before a Committee of the whole House.

    This is a shameful moment for Parliament. One day is inadequate to consider not only those clauses and any new clauses, but amendments to the clauses. My hon. Friend and the Minister know that, were the Bill to go into Committee upstairs, it would take several sittings to deal with the first three clauses because of the amendments that would be moved by hon. Members on both sides of the argument.

    My hon. Friend is perfectly correct. It takes the biscuit for the Government to say that there will be ample time in just one parliamentary day to consider the three options embodied in the schedules and any amendments and new clauses that may be tabled.

    The experience of the House on Second Reading today was that you, Mr. Speaker, had to impose a 10-minute limit on speeches by Back Benchers because of the number who wanted to take part in the debate.

    The hon. Gentleman is making a great deal of this point, and I understand that, but perhaps he would tell us how many days he and his Front-Bench colleagues asked that the Committee on the Floor of the House should sit. Was it one day, two days, three days or no days?

    I have not been party to any discussions about this matter. [Interruption.] I have not agreed provisionally or conclusively to any programme. [Interruption.]

    I have not agreed to the programme motion. All hon. Members will have a free vote on the Bill—a pre-eminent,example of the sort of measure to which it is absurd to apply a programme motion. It is not my responsibility—or that of any other Conservative Front Bencher—to speak for all my hon. Friends, who have independent views, which they will wish to express in the debate on the Bill.

    Points were made in great depth and detail on Second Reading. Does my hon. Friend agree that, given the fundamental wickedness of the Bill—[Interruption]—or at least its grave consequences for the personal liberties of many of our citizens, the measure clearly deserves two days' consideration in a Committee of the whole House?

    My right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) is being generous in the offer that he has made in the amendment. I hope that he will get the opportunity to speak about it later.

    The time allocated for debate today was inadequate because it did not provide an opportunity for every hon. Member who wanted to contribute to do so. Furthermore, the Government chore to deprive the House of nearly an hour of debating time by including a ministerial statement in today's proceedings. [Interruption.] If the programme motion is accepted, we have no guarantee that the Government will not choose to introduce—[Interruption.]

    Order. The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) is not going to give way.

    I want my hon. Friends and others who wish to contribute to the debate to have the opportunity to do that. The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller) should make representations to his business managers if he believes that the time allowed for debate on the Bill or the motions that relate to it is inadequate. The timetable is in the Government's hands, not those of the Opposition.

    On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) alleges that the Bill should not be a matter for the usual channels. I understand that a discussion took place between Government and Opposition Whips. Is it not the case that the hon. Gentleman knows that and is misleading the House?

    The hon. Member for Aylesbury would not mislead the House. I hope that there is no suggestion of that; I do not believe that the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller) would make such a suggestion.

    I am sure that the hon. Member for Aylesbury would not intentionally mislead the House. However, discussions have taken place between Government and Opposition Whips. The hon. Gentleman need only consult to confirm that.

    Order. Now that we have got that point out of the way, I stress that we are considering a narrow programme motion. The hon. Member for Aylesbury made a point of debate, and it is up to other hon. Members to rebut his case if they wish. It is not a matter for the Chair. Let us leave it at that.

    I hope that hon. Members will be quiet in the Chamber and listen to the case that is being made. The way in which they vote is then up to them. I stress that we are considering a narrow issue. I call Mr. Lidington.

    I shall give way shortly.

    If the House accepts the motion, I hope that the Government will reflect on the matter. If we are to be allowed only one day's debate in a Committee of the whole House, I hope that they will undertake to arrange no ministerial statements for that day. I hope that they will also undertake to allow debate to continue until any hour with the votes at the end, rather than resorting to a cut-off at 10 pm or to the deferred voting procedure.

    Does my hon. Friend think that the motion is an honest attempt to balance the desire of the majority to get their Bill with the desire of the minority to have proper scrutiny, or is it dictated by a desire to deliver the Bill to the House of Lords in time for the calling of a general election in March? In other words, is this a proper debate about centuries of tradition or just playing politics with country people?

    My hon. Friend puts his finger on the point at issue. The political motive for the motion is to achieve retrospectively the position claimed by the Prime Minister: that the House of Lords had obstructed the Bill on hunting. That is why the Government want to ram the Bill through the House of Commons with inadequate debate and get it to the other place as quickly as possible.

    The second limb of the motion is the guillotine to be imposed on future Committee proceedings. That is objectionable as a matter of principle. Only once a Standing Committee starts to examine a Bill in detail can one begin to see where problems arise, where more consultation is required and where there have been errors of drafting by Government draftsmen—and we have had plenty of those over the past three years.

    In the immediate aftermath of Second Reading, it is impossible to predict accurately where the problems and points of interest lie in a Bill. It is sensible to leave it for the Committee and the respective business managers to agree—informally, if appropriate—on arrangements for the handling and management of business, rather than laying down a rigid motion.

    Outside organisations always wish to make representations to Committee members. The organisations affected by the Bill do not include large corporations, which can employ professional lobbyists and others to investigate the details of the Bill and to draft possible amendments on their behalf. Many of those affected by the Bill live in scattered rural communities and are not particularly familiar with the workings of Westminster and the way in which legislation is made. Those of us who have served on Standing Committees know that even large commercial organisations often propose amendments too late in the proceedings. I fear that the risk of that will be far greater now.

    The motion is a disgrace to Parliament and makes a mockery of scrutiny; the House should reject it.

    10.43 pm

    I beg to move amendment (a), leave out "one allotted day" and insert "two allotted days."

    If the amendment is accepted by the Government, it will make only slightly more palatable a ruthless guillotine motion that is rotten in principle and malicious in its detail. The House is considering a guillotine motion that displays the typical arrogance of this most dictatorial of all Governments; a Government who have decided on Second Reading what the timetable will be in Committee for an option that has not yet been voted on.

    The House has before it three options: schedule 1 has seven paragraphs; schedule 2—the option for which the Home Secretary said he would vote—has 64 paragraphs; and schedule 3—the option for a total ban and the attempt to criminalise hundreds of thousands of law-abiding people—has 28 paragraphs. However, the Government do not know officially which way the House will vote. It could vote for the Home Secretary's option and then we would have only a short time in Committee to deal with 64 provisions.

    Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, whichever option is selected, there will be a problem? Supporters of the other two options will want to make significant amendments. That is where the time will go; there is concern that the present time allocation may not be enough.

    The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right—as every Member knows: one day's debate on the Floor of the House to deal with three major issues of principle is a ridiculously short period for such an important Bill.

    There is also the question of compensation. Many hon. Members might feel that compensation was an essential element. Such a scheme must be worked out—

    Order. The right hon. and learned Gentleman would do me a favour if he would turn and address the Chair so that I can hear what he says.

    I am very sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker; I wanted to make sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) could hear me.

    My right hon. Friend will appreciate that many of us feel that if this bad Bill goes ahead, a compensation scheme should be an essential part of it. It will inevitably take a great deal of time to work out a proper scheme and we shall not have time to do so.

    My right hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right. If the House accepts the option of a complete ban, that will raise questions of criminal law and the fact that innocent people who are currently pursuing a perfectly lawful activity—doing no harm to anyone—will be turned into criminals; they could face prison sentences. Upstairs, the Committee will want to give considerable time to that matter.

    The Government have decided in advance. They do not care which option is accepted; they have decided that the Bill will leave Committee by 8 February—no matter when it goes into Committee. We heard an interesting revelation this evening; I hope that we shall have the chance to pursue it by way of a manuscript amendment immediately after the vote on the motion. The Under-Secretary admitted that he hopes that the measure will have three weeks in Committee; only six days—a miserable 12 sittings. That is what the Minister hopes will happen, so that he can get his Bill out by 8 February.

    However, we know that the Bill does not have a slot for consideration during the first week after the Christmas break. We know the business for that week; it does not include the Bill. It is certainly not included in the provisional business for Monday 15 January. If the Bill is slotted in for consideration on the Floor of the House for the week commencing 15 January, there is a possibility that we might complete a miserable 12 sittings in Standing Committee by 8 February, but we have received no guarantee from the Government that the Bill will be given consideration during that week. It is quite possible that the timetable will slip. If the Bill is not considered until 22 January and still has to complete its Committee stage by 8 February, we will be down to four days in Committee.

    We are seeing double dealing and sleight of hand from the Government tonight. Even if the Bill was considered on the Floor of the House during the second week of January, and even if my modest amendment for two days of such consideration was accepted, there would still be inadequate time in Committee to deal with all the points that would be raised. Why are the Government so keen to get the Bill out of Committee by 8 February?

    Well, it is not merely because the Government want to bash the measure through to the Lords. We know that they are terrified of a certain date in March; they are so scared of Sunday 18 March that they are determined to make sure that there will be no consideration of the Bill on Report in this place. On Sunday 18 March, this country will see the biggest civil rights march in its history—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It will far surpass the 320,000 people who marched last time. The Government are running scared of that; it is why they want to ensure that Report stage is concluded well before that march.

    If my other amendment, to have the Bill taken out of Committee by 15 March, had been accepted—I shall not go down that route, because it is not under discussion—and if the Bill came out of Committee on 15 March or slightly before, Report would not be until after Sunday 18 March. If that were to happen, we would see quite a few frit faces on the Labour Benches. Those Labour MPs who like to pretend that they understand the countryside, and that their majority depends on country people, would then troop into the Lobby to vote down this iniquitous and punitive Bill, which would criminalise tens of thousands of innocent people.

    My right hon. Friend heard the Minister's refusal to tell us how much time would be given in the other place, to enable us to judge the whole timetable for the legislation. Does my right hon. Friend believe that the intention is to try to ram it through the other place as well? What can Ministers do when the other place comes up with a different answer from that given by this place which is quite possible? Does that mean that we could have some interesting parliamentary procedures at the exact time when the great march arrives in London?

    Despite the fact that the other place has been stuffed full of what are called Tony's cronies, and despite the fact that the Government have packed it full of those who have paid a miserable £5,000 for their peerage, it is still a fact that on an issue such as this, which involves fundamental human freedom, the Government know that they cannot guarantee that Tony's cronies will deliver the Bill for them. As there are sufficient Back Benchers, sufficient Labour and Liberal Members and sufficient Conservative Members in the other place who I believe in that fundamental human freedom, the Government know that the Bill could not get through the other place with a total ban option—so they must have another electoral ploy in mind.

    Many of my hon. Friends wish to participate in the debate in the 11 minutes that remain, so I shall conclude. It is nonsense for the Minister to suggest that the programme that he is putting before the House tonight is similar to that on the Sunday Trading Bill. There is no such comparison. In that case, hon. Members on both sides of the House agreed that something had to be done. All parties and the usual channels said, "We need to reform Sunday trading law, and we only disagree about some technicalities." This Bill, by contrast, does not have the unanimous consent of the House that something needs to be done and that we only need to argue about the technicalities so a day on the Floor and couple of days upstairs in Committee would suffice. The Bill is strongly opposed by 160 Opposition Members. In those circumstances, the Government can make no comparison to the Sunday Trading Bill.

    I raise another issue in conclusion. I believe that, in the vote tonight, at least six Scottish Members from the Labour party voted to ban hunting in England and Wales. I would merely tell them that they do not know what they are doing. That will stoke up such massive unrest in rural areas of England and Wales that it will send another 100,000 people to add to the strength of the march on 18 March.

    I urge my hon. and right hon. Friends to accept amendment (a), which would increase from one day to two the time given on the Floor of the House, and to vote for it should it be voted on. However, the whole programme motion is wrong and rotten in principle, and we should vote that down in the Division afterwards.

    10.53 pm

    I shall be very brief, and I am sure that the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller) will be able to make his views known to the House.

    This afternoon, some 5,500 people from every corner of the land came to London, many at great personal expense, to make known outside this place, in a good-humoured manner, their extreme concern at the steps being taken by the Government in the Bill.

    The great philosopher Burke rightly remarked that when a separation is made between liberty and justice, great harm is done to both. What the Government propose in this wicked Bill is thoroughly divisive and extremely dangerous for the harmony of the countryside and the town. It is quite clear that it deserves more than one day in Committee on the Floor of the House.

    This complex Bill deserves a far more detailed examination on the Floor of the House than will be allowed. Otherwise, I fear that those on the march, which was eloquently mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean), will feel that justice has not been done in the House. Those 400,000 or even 500,000 people will come to London to defend their lives and liberties and their justice. If the high court of Parliament does not do its duty properly, and if people do not feel that their concerns have been rightly dealt with here, we can expect trouble outside. One day cannot be enough to deal with the complexity of the animal welfare issues.

    The hon. Gentleman should note that the amendment was tabled by a Back Bencher and that no amendment was tabled by those on the Opposition Front Bench. Indeed, we were fairly relaxed about the number of days, but they did not ask for two days on the Floor of the House. If they had, the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) might have been in a stronger position. By the way, the Opposition have talked out the time for the manuscript amendment.

    I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point, but we are all Back Benchers in that there will be a free vote. This has been a formidable day's debate, and it has raised the most profound issues. On the detailed examination of those issues, which radically affect the natural justice and the lives and liberties of tens of thousands of people in this country, it would be wrong if we did not demand that the Government should allow two days debate on the Floor of the House. What can it possibly cost the Government to give us two days on the Floor of the House on such a vital matter? Indeed, they would be given credit for taking the views of Parliament seriously for once and allowing such an important matter to be examined in more detail.

    I beg the Minister to realise that, despite the very glib responses of people who have no connection with, no understanding of and no feeling for the countryside and what goes on there, the Government must understand the real anger that the proposals have aroused in the countryside. By allowing proper time for debate in the nation's political forum on the Floor of the House, they would at least give a chance for all the views to be properly aired and examined. It would be a terrible miscalculation and an injustice to the interests of ordinary people if the Government were not to grant us that.

    10.58 pm

    I shall touch on what the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) said in a moment, but I want to put my position in perspective. I have been a countryside resident for many years. I am delighted that my late father-in-law banned a hunt from his farm in Cornwall. My hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Mr. Hall) is my Member of Parliament, as well as being an extremely good Whip. He will confirm that my house is right out in the sticks in his constituency.

    Offers later.

    The simple fact is that, just last Wednesday, the hunt disrupted my family life.

    On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Earlier, I asked Mr. Speaker about the possibility of his accepting a manuscript amendment. What the Minister has promised the House is not encapsulated in the motion on which we are being asked to vote. Can you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, advise the House on how we deal with that situation?

    The manuscript amendment that was submitted to Mr. Speaker has been considered by him but not accepted. We are therefore confined by the terms of the amendment before us and the motion. They are the matters before the House and they are what I have to implement.

    As I said, the hunt seriously disrupted my household last Wednesday.

    The hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) made an interesting point about a free vote, and it is one that the House will need to consider in future. I was aware—

    On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Time is running out and we are unlikely to hear a winding-up speech from the Minister, so would it be in order for him to say that, in the light of this debate, he is at least willing to accept amendment (a), which would reduce the damage that the programme motion will do?

    That is not a matter for the Chair. The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller) has the Floor and he must be allowed to continue his speech.

    I am extremely grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

    As I was saying, the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex raised an interesting point. However, the simple fact is that he should not raise the issue as a complaint in the House, but raise it formally with his own Whips who were party to the discussions and did not consult him. If the hon. Gentleman has a problem with the motion, his problem is with his own Whips. They were party to the discussions and, as my hon. Friend the Minister said, they did not seek additional time. They did not seek an additional day or time to consult Members such as the hon. Gentleman. He has a point, but his argument is not with the House; it is with the Opposition Whips.

    The right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) is a master tactician at trying to keep the House's proceedings going for his own devices. Equally, he must know that my point is accurate. From the Bills that he was involved in as a Minister in the previous Administration and since— It being forty-five minutes after the commencement of proceedings on the motion, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, pursuant to Order [7 November], put forthwith the Question necessary for the disposal of proceedings to be concluded at that hour.

    Question put, That the amendment be made:—

    The House divided: Ayes 135, Noes 319.

    Division No. 29]

    [11.3 pm


    Allan, RichardHammond, Philip
    Ancram, Rt Hon MichaelHancock, Mike
    Arbuthnot, Rt Hon JamesHarris, Dr Evan
    Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)Hawkins, Nick
    Baker, NormanHayes, John
    Baldry, TonyHeath, David (Somerton & Frome)
    Beggs, RoyHeathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
    Beith, Rt Hon A JHogg, Rt Hon Douglas
    Bell, Martin (Tatton)Howard, Rt Hon Michael
    Bercow, JohnHowarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
    Blunt, CrispinHughes, Simon (Southwark N)
    Body, Sir RichardJackson, Robert (Wantage)
    Boswell, TimJenkin, Bernard
    Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)Johnson Smith, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
    Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia
    Breed, ColinKey, Robert
    Brooke, Rt Hon PeterKing, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)
    Browning, Mrs AngelaKirkwood, Archy
    Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)Lait, Mrs Jacqui
    Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)Lansley, Andrew
    Burnett, JohnLeigh, Edward
    Burns, SimonLetwin, Oliver
    Burstow, PaulLidington, David
    Butterfill, JohnLilley, Rt Hon Peter
    Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife)Livsey, Richard
    Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
    Chope, ChristopherLlwyd, Elfyn
    Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe)Loughton, Tim
    Luff, Peter
    Collins, TimLyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
    Cotter, BrianMacGregor, Rt Hon John
    Cran, JamesMcIntosh, Miss Anne
    Curry, Rt Hon DavidMaclean, Rt Hon David
    Davey, Edward (Kingston)McLoughlin, Patrick
    Davies, Quentin (Grantham)Major, Rt Hon John
    Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)Maples, John
    Dorrell, Rt Hon StephenMaude, Rt Hon Francis
    Duncan, AlanMawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian
    Duncan Smith, IainNicholls, Patrick
    Evans, NigelNorman, Archie
    Faber, DavidO'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
    Fearn, RonnieÖpik, Lembit
    Flight, HowardPaice, James
    Forth, Rt Hon EricPickles, Eric
    Foster, Don (Bath)Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
    Fowler, Rt Hon Sir NormanPrior, David
    Garnier, EdwardRandall, John
    George, Andrew (St Ives)Redwood, Rt Hon John
    Gibb, NickRendel, David
    Gidley, SandraRobertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
    Gill, ChristopherRuffley, David
    Gillan, Mrs CherylRussell, Bob (Colchester)
    Golding, Mrs LlinSt Aubyn, Nick
    Gray, JamesSanders, Adrian
    Green, DamianSayeed, Jonathan
    Greenway, JohnSheerman, Barry
    Grieve, DominicSmith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
    Gummer, Rt Hon JohnSoames, Nicholas
    Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir ArchieSpicer, Sir Michael

    Spring, RichardWebb, Steve
    Stanley, Rt Hon Sir JohnWhitney, Sir Raymond
    Steen, AnthonyWigley, Rt Hon Dafydd
    Swayne, DesmondWilkinson, John
    Willis, Phil
    Syms, RobertWilshire, David
    Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
    Thomas, Simon (Ceredigton)Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
    Tonge, Dr Jenny
    Tredinnick, David

    Tellers for the Ayes:

    Trend, Michael

    Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

    Tyrie, Andrew


    Wardle, Charles

    Dr. Julian Lewis.


    Ainger, NickClarke, Tony (Northampton S)
    Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)Clelland, David
    Alexander, DouglasClwyd, Ann
    Allen, GrahamCoaker, Vernon
    Anderson, Rt Hon Donald (Swansea E)Coffey, Ms Ann
    Coleman, Iain
    Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)Colman, Tony
    Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms HilaryCook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)
    Ashton, JoeCooper, Yvette
    Atherton, Ms CandyCorbett, Robin
    Atkins, CharlotteCorbyn, Jeremy
    Austin, JohnCousins, Jim
    Bailey, AdrianCox, Tom
    Banks, TonyCranston, Ross
    Barnes, HarryCrausby, David
    Battle, JohnCryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
    Bayley, HughCryer, John (Hornchurch)
    Beard, NigelCummings, John
    Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs MargaretCunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
    Begg, Miss AnneDarvill, Keith
    Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
    Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
    Bennett, Andrew FDavies, Geraint (Croydon C)
    Benton, JoeDavis, Rt Hon Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
    Bermingham, Gerald
    Berry, RogerDawson, Hilton
    Best, HaroldDean, Mrs Janet
    Betts, CliveDenham, John
    Blackman, LizDismore, Andrew
    Blears, Ms HazelDobbin, Jim
    Blizzard, BobDobson, Rt Hon Frank
    Boateng, Rt Hon PaulDoran, Frank
    Borrow, DavidDowd, Jim
    Bradley, Keith (Withington)Drew, David
    Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
    Bradshaw, BenEagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
    Brinton, Mrs HelenEdwards, Huw
    Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)Efford, Clive
    Buck, Ms KarenEllman, Mrs Louise
    Burden, RichardEtherington, Bill
    Burgon, ColinField, Rt Hon Frank
    Butler, Mrs ChristineFisher, Mark
    Byers, Rt Hon StephenFitzpatrick, Jim
    Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
    Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)Flint, Caroline
    Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)Flynn, Paul
    Campbell-Savours, DaleFollett, Barbara
    Cann, JamieFoster, Rt Hon Derek
    Caplin, IvorFoster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
    Casale, RogerFoster, Michael J (Worcester)
    Caton, MartinFoulkes, George
    Cawsey, IanGalloway, George
    Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)Gapes, Mike
    Chaytor, DavidGardiner, Barry
    Clapham, MichaelGerrard, Neil
    Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)Gibson, Dr Ian
    Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands))Gilroy, Mrs Linda
    Goggins, Paul
    Clark, Paul (Gillingham)Gordon, Mrs Eileen
    Clarke, Charles (Norwkich S)Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
    Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

    Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)McWatler, Tony
    Grocott, BruceMcWilliam, John
    Grogan, JohnMahon, Mrs Alice
    Hain, PeterMallaber, Judy
    Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
    Hall, Patrick (Bedford)Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
    Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)Marshall-Andrews, Robert
    Hanson, DavidMartlew, Eric
    Healey, JohnMaxton, John
    Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
    Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)Meale, Alan
    Hendrick, MarkMerron, Gillian
    Hepburn, StephenMichael, Rt Hon Alun
    Heppell, JohnMichie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
    Hesford, StephenMilburn, Rt Hon Alan
    Hewitt, Ms PatriciaMiller, Andrew
    Hill, KeithMoffatt, Laura
    Hinchliffe, DavidMoonie, Dr Lewis
    Hope, PhilMoran, Ms Margaret
    Hopkins, KelvinMorgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
    Howarth, Rt Hon Alan (Newport E)Morgan, Rhodri (Cardiff W)
    Howarth, George (Knowsley N)Morley, Elliot
    Howells, Dr KimMorris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
    Hughes, Ms Bevertey (Stretford)
    Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)Mountford, Kali
    Humble, Mrs JoanMowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie
    Hurst, AlanMudie, George
    Hutton, JohnMullin, Chris
    Iddon, Dr BrianMurphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
    Illsley, EricMurphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)
    Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)Naysmith, Dr Doug
    Jamieson, DavidO'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
    Jenkins, BrianOlner, Bill
    Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)Organ, Mrs Diana
    Palmer, Dr Nick
    Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)Pearson, Ian
    Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)Perham, Ms Linda
    Jones, Helen (Warrington N)Pickthall, Colin
    Jones, Ms Jenny (Wolverh'ton SW)Pike, Peter L
    Plaskitt, James
    Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)Pollard, Kerry
    Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)Pond, Chris
    Jowell, Rt Hon Ms TessaPope, Greg
    Kaufman, Rt Hon GeraldPound, Stephen
    Keeble, Ms SallyPowell, Sir Raymond
    Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
    Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
    Kemp, FraserPrescott, Rt Hon John
    Khabra, Piara SPrimarolo, Dawn
    Kidney, DavidProsser, Gwyn
    Kilfoyle, PeterPurchase, Ken
    King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)Quin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce
    Kumar, Dr AshokQuinn, Lawrie
    Ladyman, Dr StephenRapson, Syd
    Lammy, DavidRaynsford, Nick
    Lawrence, Mrs JackieReed, Andrew (Loughborough)
    Lepper, DavidRoche, Mrs Barbara
    Leslie, ChristopherRooker, Rt Hon Jeff
    Levitt, TomRooney, Terry
    Linton, MartinRoss, Ernie (Dundee W)
    Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)Rowlands, Ted
    Lock, DavidRuane, Chris
    Love, AndrewRuddock, Joan
    McAvoy, ThomasRussell, Ms Christine (Chester)
    McCabe, SteveRyan, Ms Joan
    McCafferty, Ms ChrisSalter, Martin
    McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield)Savidge, Malcolm
    Sawford, Phil
    McDonagh, SiobhainSedgemore, Brian
    McFall, JohnShaw, Jonathan
    McIsaac, ShonaShipley, Ms Debra
    Mackinlay, AndrewShort, Rt Hon Clare
    McNamara, KevinSimpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
    McNulty, TonySingh, Marsha
    MacShane, DenisSkinner, Dennis
    Mactaggart, FionaSmith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)

    Smith, Angela (Basildon)Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
    Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
    Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)Turner, Neil (Wigan)
    Twigg, Derek (Halton)
    Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)Vaz, Keith
    Smith, John (Glamorgan)Vis, Dr Rudi
    Soley, CliveWalley, Ms Joan
    Southworth, Ms HelenWard, Ms Claire
    Spellar, JohnWareing, Robert N
    Squire, Ms RachelWatts, David
    Starkey, Dr PhyllisWhite, Brian
    Steinberg, GerryWhitehead, Dr Alan
    Stevenson, GeorgeWicks, Malcolm
    Stewart, Ian (Eccles)Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
    Stinchcombe, Paul
    Stoate Dr HowardWilliams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
    Straw, Rt Hon JackWilliams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
    Wills, Michael
    Stuart, Ms GiselaWinnick, David
    Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
    Wood, Mike
    Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)Woodward, Shaun
    Taylor, David (NW Leics)Woolas, Phil
    Temple-Morris, PeterWright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
    Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)Wright, Tony (Cannock)
    Timms, StephenWyatt, Derek
    Tipping, Paddy
    Todd, Mark

    Tellers for the Noes:

    Truswell, Paul

    Mr. Gerry Sutcliffe and

    Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

    Mr. Don Touhig.

    Question accordingly negatived.

    Main Question put:

    The House divided: Ayes 315, Noes 122.

    Division No. 30]

    [11.19 pm


    Ainger, NickBrown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)
    Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)Buck, Ms Karen
    Alexander, DouglasBurden, Richard
    Allen, GrahamBurgon, Colin
    Anderson, Rt Hon Donald (Swansea E)Butler, Mrs Christine
    Byers, Rt Hon Stephen
    Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
    Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms HilaryCampbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
    Ashton, JoeCampbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
    Atherton, Ms CandyCampbell-Savours, Dale
    Atkins, CharlotteCann, Jamie
    Austin, JohnCaplin, Ivor
    Bailey, AdrianCasale, Roger
    Banks, TonyCaton, Martin
    Barnes, HarryCawsey, Ian
    Battle, JohnChapman, Ben (Wirral S)
    Bayley, HughChaytor, David
    Beard, NigelClapham, Michael
    Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs MargaretClark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
    Begg, Miss AnneClark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
    Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)
    Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
    Bennett, Andrew FClarke, Charles (Norwich S)
    Benton, JoeClarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
    Bermingham, GeraldClarke, Tony (Northampton S)
    Berry, RogerClelland, David
    Best, HaroldClwyd, Ann
    Betts, CliveCoaker, Vernon
    Blackman, LizCoffey, Ms Ann
    Blears, Ms HazelColeman, Iain
    Blizzard, BobColman, Tony
    Boateng, Rt Hon PaulCook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)
    Borrow, DavidCooper, Yvette
    Bradley, Keith (Withington)Corbett, Robin
    Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)Corbyn, Jeremy
    Bradshaw, BenCousins, Jim
    Brinton, Mrs HelenCox, Tom

    Cranston, RossJenkins, Brian
    Crausby, DavidJohnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
    Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
    Cryer, John (Hornchurch)Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)
    Cummings, JohnJones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)
    Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
    Darvill, KeithJones, Ms Jenny (Wolverh'ton SW)
    Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
    Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
    Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
    Davis, Rt Hon Terry (B'ham Hodge H)Jowell, Rt Hon Ms Tessa
    Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
    Dean, Mrs JanetKeeble, Ms Sally
    Denham, JohnKeen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
    Dismore, AndrewKeen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
    Dobbin, JimKemp, Fraser
    Dobson, Rt Hon FrankKhabra, Piara S
    Doran, FrankKidney, David
    Dowd, JimKilfoyle, Peter
    Drew, DavidKing, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
    Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)Kumar, Dr Ashok
    Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)Ladyman, Dr Stephen
    Edwards, HuwLammy, David
    Efford, CliveLawrence, Mrs Jackie
    Ellman, Mrs LouiseLepper, David
    Etherington, BillLeslie, Christopher
    Field, Rt Hon FrankLevitt, Tom
    Fisher, MarkLewis, Ivan (Bury S)
    Fitzpatrick, JimLinton, Martin
    Fitzsimons, Mrs LornaLloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
    Flint, CarolineLock, David
    Flynn, PaulLove, Andrew
    Follett, BarbaraMcAvoy, Thomas
    Foster, Rt Hon DerekMcCabe, Steve
    Foster, Michael J (Worcester)McCafferty, Ms Chris
    Foulkes, GeorgeMcCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield)
    Gapes, Mike
    Gardiner, BarryMcDonagh, Siobhain
    Gerrard, NeilMcFall, John
    Gibson, Dr IanMcIsaac, Shona
    Gilroy, Mrs LindaMackinlay, Andrew
    Goggins, PaulMcNamara, Kevin
    Gordon, Mrs EileenMcNulty, Tony
    Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)MacShane, Denis
    Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)Mactaggart, Fiona
    Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)McWalter, Tony
    Grocott, BruceMcWilliam, John
    Grogan, JohnMahon, Mrs Alice
    Hain, PeterMallaber, Judy
    Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
    Hall, Patrick (Bedford)Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
    Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)Marshall-Andrews, Robert
    Hanson, DavidMartlew, Eric
    Healey, JohnMaxton, John
    Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
    Hendrick, MarkMeale, Alan
    Hepburn, StephenMerron, Gillian
    Heppell, JohnMichael, Rt Hon Alun
    Hesford, StephenMichie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
    Hewitt, Ms PatriciaMilburn, Rt Hon Alan
    Hill, KeithMiller, Andrew
    Hinchliffe, DavidMoffatt, Laura
    Hope, PhilMoonie, Dr Lewis
    Hopkins, KelvinMoran, Ms Margaret
    Howarth, Rt Hon Alan (Newport E)Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
    Howarth, George (Knowsley N)Morgan, Rhodri (Cardiff W)
    Howells, Dr KimMorley, Elliot
    Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
    Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
    Humble, Mrs JoanMountford, Kali
    Hurst, AlanMudie, George
    Hutton, JohnMullin, Chris
    Iddon, Dr BrianMurphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
    Illsley, EricMurphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)
    Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)Naysmith, Dr Doug
    Jamieson, DavidO'Brien, Mike (N Warks)

    Olner, BillSouthworth, Ms Helen
    Organ, Mrs DianaSpellar, John
    Palmer, Dr NickSquire, Ms Rachel
    Pearson, IanStarkey, Dr Phyllis
    Perham, Ms LindaSteinberg, Gerry
    Pickthall, ColinStevenson, George
    Pike, Peter LStewart, Ian (Eccles)
    Plaskitt, JamesStinchcombe, Paul
    Pollard, KerryStoate, Dr Howard
    Pond, ChrisStraw, Rt Hon Jack
    Pope, GregStuart, Ms Gisela
    Pound, StephenTaylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
    Powell, Sir Raymond
    Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
    Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)Taylor, David (NW Leics)
    Prescott, Rt Hon JohnTemple-Morris, Peter
    Primarolo, DawnThomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
    Prosser, GwynTimms, Stephen
    Purchase, KenTipping, Paddy
    Quin, Rt Hon Ms JoyceTodd, Mark
    Quinn, LawrieTruswell, Paul
    Rapson, SydTurner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
    Raynsford, NickTurner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
    Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
    Roche, Mrs BarbaraTurner, Neil (Wigan)
    Rooker Rt Hon JeffTwigg, Derek (Halton)
    Vaz Keith
    Rooney, TerryVis, Dr Rudi
    Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)Walley, Ms Joan
    Rowlands, TedWard, Ms Claire
    Ruane, ChrisWareing, Robert N
    Ruddock, JoanWatts, David
    Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)White, Brian
    Ryan, Ms JoanWhitehead, Dr Alan
    Salter, MartinWicks, Malcolm
    Savidge, MalcolmWilliams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
    Sawford, Phil
    Sedgemore, BrianWilliams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
    Shaw, JonathanWilliams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
    Sheerman, BarryWills, Michael
    Shipley, Ms DebraWinnick, David
    Short, Rt Hon ClareWinterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
    Singh, MarshaWood, Mike
    Skinner, DennisWoodward, Shaun
    Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)Woolas, Phil
    Smith, Angela (Basildon)Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
    Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)Wright, Tony (Cannock)
    Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)Wyatt, Derek
    Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)

    Tellers for the Ayes:

    Smith, John (Glamorgan)

    Mr. Gerry Sutcliffe and

    Soley, Clive

    Mr. Don Touhig.


    Allan, RichardButterfill, John
    Ancram, Rt Hon MichaelCampbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife)
    Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James
    Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)Chope, Christopher
    Baker, NormanClarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
    Baldry, Tony
    Beggs, RoyCollins, Tim
    Beith, Rt Hon A JCotter, Brian
    Bercow, JohnCran, James
    Blunt, CrispinCurry, Rt Hon David
    Body, Sir RichardDavey, Edward (Kingston)
    Boswell, TimDavies, Quentin (Grantham)
    Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)
    Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs VirginiaDorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
    Breed, ColinDuncan, Alan
    Brooke, Rt Hon PeterEvans, Nigel
    Browning, Mrs AngelaFaber, David
    Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)Fearn, Ronnie
    Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)Flight, Howard
    Burnett, JohnForth, Rt Hon Eric
    Burns, SimonFoster, Don (Bath)
    Burstow, PaulFowier, Rt Hon Sir Norman

    Garnier, EdwardMaclean, Rt Hon David
    George, Andrew (St Ives)McLoughlin, Patrick
    Gibb, NickMajor, Rt Hon John
    Gidley, SandraMaples, John
    Gill, ChristopherMaude, Rt Hon Francis
    Gillan, Mrs CherylMawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian
    Gray, JamesNicholls, Patrick
    Green, DamianO'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
    Greenway, JohnÖpik, Lembit
    Grieve, DominicPaice, James
    Gummer, Rt Hon JohnPickles, Eric
    Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir ArchiePortillo, Rt Hon Michael
    Hammond, PhilipRandall, John
    Hancock, MikeRedwood, Rt Hon John
    Harris, Dr EvanRobertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
    Hawkins, NickRussell, Bob (Colchester)
    Hayes, JohnSanders, Adrian
    Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)Sayeed, Jonathan
    Hogg, Rt Hon DouglasSmith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
    Howard,Rt Hon MichaelSoames, Nicholas
    Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)Spicer, Sir Michael
    Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
    Jackson, Robert (Wantage)Steen, Anthony
    Jenkin, BernardSwayne, Desmond
    Johnson Smith, Rt Hon Sir GeoffreySyms, Robert
    Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
    Key, RobertThomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
    King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)Tonge, Dr Jenny
    Kirkwood, ArchyTredinnick, David
    Lansley, AndrewTyrie, Andrew
    Leigh, EdwardWardle, Charles
    Letwin, OliverWebb, Steve
    Lidington, DavidWhitney, Sir Raymond
    Lilley, Rt Hon PeterWigley, Rt Hon Dafydd
    Livsey, RichardWilkinson, John
    Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)Willis, Phil
    Llwyd, ElfynWilshire, David
    Loughton, TimWinterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
    Luff, PeterWinterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
    Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

    Tellers for the Noes:

    MacGregor, Rt Hon John

    Dr. Julian Lewis and

    McIntosh, Miss Anne

    Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown.

    Question accordingly agreed to.

    That the following provisions shall apply to the Hunting Bill:—
  • 1. Clauses 1 to 4 and any New Clauses shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House.
  • 2. The remainder of the Bill shall be committed to a Standing Committee.
  • 3.—
  • (1) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House shall be completed in one allotted day.
  • (2) An allotted day is one on which the Bill is put down as first Government Order of the Day.
  • 4. Sessional Order B (Programming Committees) made by the House on 7th November shall not apply to the Bill.
  • 5. Proceedings in the Standing Committee shall (unless previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Thursday 8th February 2001.
  • Hunting Bill Money

    Queen's recommendation having been signified—
    Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 52(1)(a) (Money resolutions and ways and means resolutions in connection with bills),

    That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Hunting Bill, it is expedient to authorize—
  • (1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of—
  • (a) grants and loans made by the Secretary of State to the Hunting Authority or to ISAH Limited,
  • (b) any other expenses of the Secretary of State incurred in consequence of the Act, and
  • (c) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable out of money so provided under any other enactment, and
  • (2) the payment into the Consolidated Fund of sums received by a Minister of the Crown by virtue of the Act.—[Mr. Jamieson.]
  • The House divided: Ayes 329, Noes 92.

    Division No. 31]

    [11.32 pm


    Ainger, NickClark, Dr Lynda(Edinburgh Pentlands)
    Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
    Alexander, DouglasClark, Paul (Gillingham)
    Allan, RichardClarke, Charles (Norwich S)
    Allen, GrahamClarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
    Anderson, Rt Hon Donald(Swansea E)Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
    Clelland, David
    Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)Clwyd, Ann
    Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms HilaryCoaker, Vernon
    Ashton, JoeCoffey, Ms Ann
    Atherton, Ms CandyColeman, Iain
    Atkins, CharlotteColman, Tony
    Austin, JohnCook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)
    Bailey, AdrianCooper, Yvette
    Baker, NormanCorbett, Robin
    Banks, TonyCorbyn, Jeremy
    Barnes, HarryCotter, Brian
    Battle, JohnCousins, Jim
    Bayley, HughCox, Tom
    Beard, NigelCranston, Ross
    Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs MargaretCrausby, David
    Begg, Miss AnneCryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
    Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
    Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)Cummings, John
    Bennett, Andrew FCunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
    Benton, JoeDarvill, Keith
    Bermingham, GeraldDavey, Edward (Kingston)
    Berry, RogerDavey, Valerie (Bristol W)
    Best, HaroldDavies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
    Betts, CliveDavies, Geraint (Croydon C)
    Blackman, LizDavis, Rt Hon Terry(B'ham Hodge H)
    Blears, Ms Hazel
    Blizzard, BobDawson, Hilton
    Boateng, Rt Hon PaulDean, Mrs Janet
    Borrow, DavidDenham, John
    Bradley, Keith (Withington)Dismore, Andrew
    Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)Dobbin, Jim
    Bradshaw, BenDobson, Rt Hon Frank
    Breed, ColinDoran, Frank
    Brinton, Mrs HelenDowd, Jim
    Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)Drew, David
    Buck, Ms KarenEagle, Angela (Wallasey)
    Burden, RichardEagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
    Burgon, ColinEdwards, Huw
    Burstow, PaulEfford, Clive
    Butler, Mrs ChristineEllman, Mrs Louise
    Byers, Rt Hon StephenEtherington, Bill
    Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)Fearn, Ronnie
    Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)Field, Rt Hon Frank
    Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)Fisher, Mark
    Campbell-Savours, DaleFitzpatrick, Jim
    Caplin, IvorFitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
    Casale, RogerFlint, Caroline
    Caton, MartinFlynn, Paul
    Cawsey, IanFollett, Barbara
    Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)Foster, Rt Hon Derek
    Chaytor, DavidFoster, Don (Bath)
    Clapham, MichaelFoster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
    Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)Foster, Michael J (Worcester)

    Galloway, GeorgeLock, David
    Gapes, MikeLove, Andrew
    Gardiner, BarryMcAvoy, Thomas
    George, Andrew (St Ives)McCabe, Steve
    Gerrard, NeilMcCafferty, Ms Chris
    Gibson, Dr IanMcCartney, Rt Hon Ian(Makerfield)
    Gidley, Sandra
    Gilroy, Mrs LindaMcDonagh, Siobhain
    Goggins, PaulMcFall, John
    Gordon, Mrs EileenMcIsaac, Shona
    Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)Mackinlay, Andrew
    Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)McNamara, Kevin
    Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)McNulty, Tony
    Grocott, BruceMacShane, Denis
    Grogan, JohnMactaggart, Fiona
    Hain, PeterMcWalter, Tony
    Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)McWilliam, John
    Hall, Patrick (Bedford)Mahon, Mrs Alice
    Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)Mallaber, Judy
    Hancock, MikeMarsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
    Hanson, DavidMarsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
    Harris, Dr EvanMarshall-Andrews, Robert
    Healey, JohnMartlew, Eric
    Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)Maxton, John
    Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
    Hendrick, MarkMeale, Alan
    Hepburn, StephenMerron, Gillian
    Hesford, StephenMichael, Rt Hon Alun
    Hewitt, Ms PatriciaMichie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
    Hill, KeithMilburn, Rt Hon Alan
    Hinchliffe, DavidMiller, Andrew
    Hope, PhilMoffatt, Laura
    Hopkins, KelvinMoonie, Dr Lewis
    Howarth, Rt Hon Alan (Newport E)Moran, Ms Margaret
    Howarth, George (Knowsley N)Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
    Howells, Dr KimMorgan, Rhodri (Cardiff W)
    Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)Morley, Elliot
    Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle(B'ham Yardley)
    Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
    Humble, Mrs JoanMountford, Kali
    Hurst, AlanMudie, George
    Hutton, JohnMullin, Chris
    Iddon, Dr BrianMurphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
    Illsley, EricMurphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)
    Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)Naysmith, Dr Doug
    Jamieson, DavidO'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
    Jenkins, BrianOlner, Bill
    Johnson, Miss Melanie(Welwyn Hatfield)Organ, Mrs Diana
    Palmer, Dr Nick
    Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)Pearson, Ian
    Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)Perham, Ms Linda
    Jones, Helen (Warrington N)Pickthall, Colin
    Jones, Ms Jenny(Wolverh'ton SW)Pike, Peter L
    Plaskitt, James
    Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)Pollard, Kerry
    Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)Pond, Chris
    Jowell, Rt Hon Ms TessaPope, Greg
    Kaufman, Rt Hon GeraldPound, Stephen
    Keeble, Ms SallyPowell, Sir Raymond
    Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
    Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
    Kemp, FraserPrimarolo, Dawn
    Khabra, Piara SProsser, Gwyn
    Kidney, DavidPurchase, Ken
    Kilfoyle, PeterQuin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce
    King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)Quinn, Lawrie
    Kumar, Dr AshokRapson, Syd
    Ladyman, Dr StephenRaynsford, Nick
    Lammy, DavidReed, Andrew (Loughborough)
    Lawrence, Mrs JackieRoche, Mrs Barbara
    Lepper, DavidRooker, Rt Hon Jeff
    Leslie, ChristopherRoss, Ernie (Dundee W)
    Levitt, TomRowlands, Ted
    Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)Ruane, Chris
    Linton, MartinRuddock, Joan
    Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)Russell, Bob (Colchester)

    Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)Tipping, Paddy
    Ryan, Ms JoanTodd, Mark
    Sanders, AdrianTonge, Dr Jenny
    Savidge, MalcolmTruswell, Paul
    Sawford, PhilTurner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
    Sedgemore, BrianTurner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
    Shaw, JonathanTurner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
    Shipley, Ms DebraTurner, Neil (Wigan)
    Short, Rt Hon ClareTwigg, Derek (Halton)
    Singh, MarshaVaz, Keith
    Skinner, DennisVis, Dr Rudi
    Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)Walley, Ms Joan
    Smith, Angela (Basildon)Ward, Ms Claire
    Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)Wareing, Robert N
    Smith, Miss Geraldine(Morecambe & Lunesdale)Watts, David
    Webb, Steve
    Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)White, Brian
    Smith, John (Glamorgan)Whitehead, Dr Alan
    Soley, CliveWicks, Malcolm
    Southworth, Ms HelenWiddecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
    Spellar, JohnWilliams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
    Squire, Ms Rachel
    Starkey, Dr PhyllisWilliams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
    Steinberg, GerryWilliams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
    Stevenson, GeorgeWillis, Phil
    Stewart, Ian (Eccles)Wills, Michael
    Stinchcombe, PaulWinnick, David
    Straw, Rt Hon JackWood, Mike
    Stuart, Ms GiselaWoodward, Shaun
    Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann(Dewsbury)Woolas, Phil
    Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
    Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)Wright, Tony (Cannock)
    Taylor, David (NW Leics)Wyatt, Derek
    Temple-Morris, Peter

    Tellers for the Ayes:

    Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)

    Mr. Gerry Sutcliffe and

    Timms, Stephen

    Mr. Don Touhig.


    Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
    Baldry, TonyHammond, Philip
    Beggs, RoyHawkins, Nick
    Beith, Rt Hon A JHayes, John
    Bercow, JohnHogg, Rt Hon Douglas
    Blunt, CrispinHoward, Rt Hon Michael
    Body, Sir RichardHowarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
    Boswell, TimJenkin, Bernard
    Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)Johnson Smith, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
    Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia
    Brooke, Rt Hon PeterKey, Robert
    Browning, Mrs AngelaKing, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)
    Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)Kirkwood, Archy
    Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)Lansley, Andrew
    Burnett, JohnLeigh, Edward
    Burns, SimonLetwin, Oliver
    Butterfill, JohnLidington, David
    Chope, ChristopherLilley, Rt Hon Peter
    Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth(Rushcliffe)Livsey, Richard
    Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
    Collins, TimLlwyd, Elfyn
    Curry, Rt Hon DavidLoughton, Tim
    Davies, Quentin (Grantham)Luff, Peter
    Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
    Dorrell, Rt Hon StephenMacGregor, Rt Hon John
    Duncan, AlanMcIntosh, Miss Anne
    Evans, NigelMaclean, Rt Hon David
    Flight, HowardMcLoughlin, Patrick
    Forth, Rt Hon EricMajor, Rt Hon John
    Fowler, Rt Hon Sir NormanMaude, Rt Hon Francis
    Garnier, EdwardMawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian
    Gibb, NickNicholls, Patrick
    Gill, ChristopherO'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
    Gillan, Mrs CherylÖpik, Lembit
    Greenway, JohnPaice, James
    Grieve, DominicPickles, Eric
    Gummer, Rt Hon JohnPortillo, Rt Hon Michael

    Redwood, Rt Hon JohnTredinnick, David
    Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)Tyrie, Andrew
    Sayeed, JonathanWhitney, Sir Raymond
    Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)Wigley, Rt Hon Dafydd
    Soames, NicholasWilkinson, John
    Spicer, Sir MichaelWilshire, David
    Stanley, Rt Hon Sir JohnWinterson, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
    Steen, AnthonyWinterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
    Swayne, Desmond
    Syms, Robert

    Tellers for the Noes:

    Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)

    Dr. Julian Lewis and

    Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)

    Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown.

    Question accordingly agreed to.

    Sittings In Westminister Hall

    Motion made,

    That, following the Order [20th November], Mr. Nicholas Winterton, Mr. John McWilliam, Mr. Barry Jones and Frank Cook be appointed to act as additional Deputy Speakers at sittings in Westminster Hall during this Session.—[Mr. Jamieson.]

    Select Committees (Joint Meetings)

    Motion made,

    That, for the current Session of Parliament, Standing Order No. 152 (Select committees related to government departments) be amended as follows:
    Line 37, before the word `European' insert the words `Environmental Audit Committee or with the'
    Line 46, before the word 'European' insert the words `Environmental Audit Committee or with the'.
    Line 48, at the end insert the words:—
    '(4A) notwithstanding paragraphs (2) and (4) above, where more than two committees or sub-committees appointed under this order meet concurrently in accordance with paragraph (4)(e) above, the quorum of each such committee or sub-committee shall be two.—[Mr. Jamieson.]

    Business Of The House

    Motion made,

    That Private Members' Bills shall have precedence over Government business on 2nd and 9th February, 9th, 16th, 23rd and 30th March, 6th and 27th April, 11th and 18th May, 8th and 15th June and 20th July 2001.—[Mr. Jamie son.]

    Human Rights (Joint Committee)

    Motion made,

    the Lords Message [12th July] communicating a Resolution relating to Human Rights (Joint Committee) be now considered;
    this House concurs with the Lords in the said Resolution; and
    the following Standing Order be made:
  • (1) There shall be a Select Committee, to consist of six Members, to join with the Committee appointed by the Lords as the Joint Committee on Human Rights
  • (2) The Committee shall consider—
  • (a) matters relating to human rights in the United Kingdom (but excluding consideration of individual cases);
  • (b) proposals for remedial orders, draft remedial orders and remedial orders made under Section 10 of and laid under Schedule 2 to the Human Rights Act 1998; and
  • (c) in respect of draft remedial orders and remedial orders, whether the special attention of the House should be drawn to them on any of the grounds specified in Standing Order No. 151 (Statutory Instruments (Joint Committee));
  • (3) The Committee shall report to the House—
  • (a) in relation to any document containing proposals laid before the House under paragraph 3 of the said Schedule 2, its recommendation whether a draft order in the same terms as the proposals should be laid before the House; or
  • (b) in relation to any draft order laid under paragraph 2 of the said Schedule 2, its recommendation whether the draft Order should be approved;
  • and the Committee may report to the House on any matter arising from its consideration of the said proposals or draft orders.
  • (4) The Committee shall report to the House in respect of any original order laid under paragraph 4 of the said Schedule 2, its recommendation whether—
  • (a) the order should be approved in the form in which it was originally laid before Parliament; or
  • (b) that the order should be replaced by a new order modifying the provisions of the original order; or
  • (c) that the order should not be approved,
  • and the Committee may report to the House on any matter arising from its consideration of the said order or any replacement order.
  • (5) The quorum of the committee shall be three.
  • (6) Unless the House otherwise orders, each Member nominated to the committee shall continue to be a member of it for the remainder of the Parliament.
  • (7) The committee shall have power—
  • (a) to send for persons, papers and records, to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House, to adjourn from place to place within the United Kingdom, to adjourn to institutions of the Council of Europe outside the United Kingdom no more than four times in any calendar year, and to report from time to time; and
  • (b) to appoint specialist advisers either to supply information which is not readily available or to elucidate matters of complexity within the committee's order of reference.
  • As an Amendment to Margaret Beckett's Motion (Human Rights (Joint Committee)):
    Mr. Paul Tyler
    Line 47, at end add—
    '(8) It shall be an Instruction to the Committee that it shall elect its chairman from among those members of the Committee who are members of opposition parties.'—[Mr. Jamieson.]

    Human Rights

    Motion made,

    That Jean Corston, Mr. Desmond Browne, Mr. Andrew Miller, Mr. Gareth Thomas (Clwyd West), Sir Patrick Cormack and Mr. Robert Maclennan be Members of the Select Committee appointed to join with a Committee of the Lords as the Joint Committee on Human Rights.—[Mr. Jamieson.]