We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast. I have a few preliminary announcements that Mr Speaker has asked me to draw to your attention. Hansard colleagues will be grateful if Members could email their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. Please switch electronic devices to silent.

Today, we will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence session. In view of the time available, I hope that we can take those matters formally, without debate.

Ordered,

That—

1. the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Tuesday 13 June) meet—

(a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 13 June;

(b) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 15 June;

(c) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 20 June;

(d) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 22 June;

(e) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 27 June;

(f) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 29 June;

(g) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 4 July;

(h) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 6 July;

(i) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 11 July;

(j) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 13 July;

(k) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 18 July;

2. the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:

3. proceedings on consideration of the Bill in Committee shall be taken in the following order: Clauses 1 to 36; Schedule 1; Clauses 37 to 59; Schedule 2; Clauses 60 to 121; Schedule 3; Clauses 122 to 124; Schedule 4; Clause 125; Schedule 5; Clauses 126 to 131; Schedule 6; Clause 132; Schedule 7; Clauses 133 to 136; Schedules 8 to 10; Clause 137; Schedule 11; Clause 138; Schedule 12; Clauses 139 to 142; Schedules 13 and 14; Clauses 143 to 200; Schedule 15; Clauses 201 to 207; Schedule 16; Clause 208; Schedule 17; Clauses 209 to 217; Schedule 18; Clauses 218 to 247; Schedule 19; Clause 248; Schedule 20; Clauses 249 to 276; Schedule 21; Clauses 277 to 287; Schedule 22; Clauses 288 to 292; Schedule 23; Clauses 293 to 300; Schedule 24; Clauses 301 to 308; Schedule 25; Clauses 309 and 310; Schedule 26; Clauses 311 to 317; new Clauses; new Schedules; remaining proceedings on the Bill;

4. the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Tuesday 18 July.—(Kevin Hollinrake.)

The Committee will therefore proceed to line-by-line consideration of the Bill on Tuesday 20 June at 9.25 am.

Resolved,

That, subject to the discretion of the Chair, any written evidence received by the Committee shall be reported to the House for publication.—(Kevin Hollinrake.)

Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room and circulated to Members by email.

Resolved,

That, at this and any subsequent meeting at which oral evidence is to be heard, the Committee shall sit in private until the witnesses are admitted.—(Kevin Hollinrake.)

Before we start hearing from the witnesses, do any Members wish to make declarations of interest in connection with the Bill? No.

We will move straight on then to hear oral evidence from the Competition and Markets Authority. This morning, we are privileged to have a trio of stellar CMA executives: Sarah Cardell, the chief executive; George Lusty, the senior director for consumer protection; and Will Hayter from the digital markets unit.

Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and that we must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee has agreed. For this session, we have until 9.55 am. Could I ask our three witnesses, starting with the chief executive, to introduce themselves for the record?

Sarah Cardell: I am Sarah Cardell, chief executive of the CMA.

George Lusty: I am George Lusty, senior director for consumer protection at the CMA.

Will Hayter: I am Will Hayter, senior director for the digital markets unit at the CMA.

Q Thank you very much for coming today to give evidence. We very much appreciate your time. The CMA has supported this legislation, and there has been quite a lot of talk about how it provides a different approach to how the EU has taken forward legislation in this area. Do you think we have got the balance right, and why do you think a more flexible approach is helpful? You may have an example that you might want to use from your experience of a shadow digital markets unit.

Sarah Cardell: I will start off, and Will might come in with a specific example. We are talking here specifically about the provisions around digital markets in the Bill. What we have got with the design of the provisions here is exactly as you say—something that is really quite bespoke, quite targeted and flexible. I think that is really important. When we look at the issues that we are seeking to tackle in digital markets, there are many benefits that come from them, but there are real competition concerns. We see a concentration of market power. We see the characteristics of these markets, where there are substantial economies of scope and of scale, and the aggregation of data, and that results in potential harm, both for consumers, in terms of their ability to access a broad range of products and services, and for competing businesses that want to be able to compete and grow and innovate on a level playing field.

What does the Bill do? The Bill enables us to tackle those concerns in a very targeted way. That is critical. You asked about the comparison with the European Union’s Digital Markets Act. In terms of the underlying concern, what we have in the EU is designed similarly—there is no fundamental difference there—but it is a more blanket approach, with a blanket list of prohibited conduct, whereas what we have here is a Bill that enables the CMA to designate particular companies in relation to particular activities, and then to design conduct requirements to manage their market power in relation to those specific activities. That is a much more bespoke system from the outset—it is targeted at the individual company and the individual conduct that is a cause of concern.

I think this Bill also has a greater degree of future-proofing. That is obviously critical in these markets, because they evolve so rapidly. The system in the EU is a slightly more static approach. You have a set of provisions that prohibit certain conduct as things stand at the moment. What we will have is the ability to bring in new conduct requirements if we see new concerns emerging, and to vary those or remove them when they no longer apply. That means that the system over time will be much more responsive and much more future-proofed. Will might want to come in with a couple of specific examples.

Q We have quite a lot to get through, so let me just ask a follow-up question. There has been some criticism that the approach of regulating firms with strategic market status would be a discouragement to business investment and confidence in the UK technology sector. What would your view be?

Sarah Cardell: My view is that it is entirely the opposite. Competition and open competitive markets are the foundation of an economy that encourages investment, innovation and growth. We see that from a vast range of economic literature and economic research. The work that the CMA already does is very much tied to driving innovation, investment and growth.

So the starting point is that open competitive markets are good for innovation, good for investor confidence and good for growth. We then need to make sure that the design of the regime delivers that, and that the implementation of the regime, by the CMA, delivers that. I think the design does, for the reasons that I broadly outlined, and obviously the scrutiny is then, rightly, on the CMA to make sure that in practice we deliver the regime in a way that inspires that confidence.

I think we will do that in a number of ways. The first is to look at the outcomes that we deliver, which will ensure that businesses, large and small, are able to grow, invest and thrive in these markets. The second way is to make sure that we have really strong stakeholder engagement. This is not a regime where we want to operate behind closed doors. The whole design of the regime is a participative approach where we will engage with a broad range of stakeholders, businesses and consumers as we consult on designation, design the conduct requirements, and then enforce against them.

Q The Government have not taken forward the recommendations from the CMA on tackling consumer detriment in the secondary ticketing market. Do you think that that was a mistake and that that should be in the Bill? Finally, huge new powers are going to the CMA. Do you think that the accountability mechanisms have the right balance? That will be a concern for Parliament. Mr Lusty and Mr Hayter might want to come in.

Sarah Cardell: If I quickly take accountability, George might come in on secondary tickets. Accountability is key. The Bill gives us greater responsibility and power, and with that must come greater accountability. That comes in a number of forms. Parliamentary accountability is critical. We are accountable to Parliament. We do that already through a number of appearances and engagement with Committees, but I am sure that there is more that we could do in the design of that, and we are very keen to work with colleagues in Government and across Parliament to ensure that that happens. Accountability for our decisions through the courts is another important element, and accountability to stakeholders, going back to the previous point, is key as well.

George Lusty: On secondary tickets, the CMA has taken a lot of action in this area. It has taken Viagogo to court. We found ourselves up against some of the inherent weaknesses in the existing consumer protection toolkit when we did that. We effectively had to initiate an attempt to start contempt of court proceedings to get Viagogo to comply with the court order that we had secured. We think that many of the changes in the Bill will address those weaknesses directly by giving us civil fining powers for the first time. We set out specific recommendations back in August 2021 about other things that we think could be done, but ultimately it is a matter for the Government to decide what they want to include in the legislation.

Q How will the enforcement powers accelerate your enforcement action in particular? Remediation needs to come quickly in digital markets, especially with the appeals process, which has been a topic of conversation. Why do you believe that judicial review is sufficient to give proportionatality for people to push back and for keeping the speed up?

Sarah Cardell: On digital markets, the design works very well, because you have an engaged approach where we will work with businesses to secure compliance with the conduct requirements. We hope that that will be a constructive engagement, and that much of that compliance will be achieved without any enforcement activity. That is the aspiration and the goal. Of course it is important to have enforcement as an effective backstop and that that enforcement happens rapidly for the reasons that you stated. The Bill envisages a six-month time limit for enforcement, which is important so that everybody knows that that timing is ringfenced.

On appeals, let me take a minute to talk through the JR standard and why I think that it is effective, because there has been a lot of debate about that. It is critical that the CMA faces effective judicial scrutiny for our work. That should go on the record. We think that the JR standard achieves that. The JR standard applies to much of our work already, including our merger control and market investigations. It applies to a number of regulators for their regulatory work already, so there is an established approach for JR.

What JR is not, certainly in our experience, is a very light-touch procedural review. It looks at process questions, but it also looks fundamentally at whether we have applied the right analytical approach, the kind of evidence that we have reviewed, how we have weighed that evidence, and the rationality—the reasonableness—of our decision making. Take the example of the Competition Appeal Tribunal review of our merger decision, which was a review of the acquisition by Meta of Giphy. We had 100-plus pages in that judgment, with 50-plus pages looking at our analytic framework, how we looked at the effect on competition, the kind of evidence that we took into account and whether we weighed it effectively. It was a very detailed critique of our assessment.

What JR does not do is start a full merits from first instance court process. It does not say, “Back to the drawing board—we are going to set the CMA’s decision to one side and then conduct the process all over again.” That is much more similar to the full merits review that we have at the moment on Competition Act 1998 cases. Our experience there is that it results in very protracted litigation—we often have cases that are in court for five or six weeks. But, fundamentally, it also changes the incentives to the parties that we are engaging with, because all eyes are on that litigation process. That means that, in our process and our own investigations, it is a lot harder to reach constructive, collaborative outcomes, because every point that we are investigating is thrown into an adversarial contest. It means that we have to turn every stone, check every piece of evidence and make sure that every point is covered, which means that our investigations themselves are more protracted and the litigation is much longer.

The benefit of judicial review in this process is that it provides absolutely robust and effective scrutiny, but it also supports an environment that is aligned with the aspirations of the Bill more broadly—to encourage engagement early on and to encourage constructive, collaborative outcomes. Then, of course, parties absolutely have the right to challenge and appeal our decisions and, where they do so, that is resolved effectively through a JR process.

Q So you believe this is the right balance between being robust enough for those with strategic market status and being speedy enough for remediation for challenger tech.

Sarah Cardell: Absolutely.

Q Good morning. We have talked a lot this morning about accountability to Parliament. That was highlighted quite heavily on Second Reading by Members from across the House. One of the other things that we have already discussed is the need for the CMA’s strategic priorities to be directed and advised by Parliament. Could you expand on your thoughts on that point? Also, where do you see the priorities for the Digital Markets Bill? That is not intended to be a loaded question.

Sarah Cardell: I will give a high-level response, and Will might come in on some of the specific priorities for the DMU. It is really important to highlight the difference between accountability and independence. The CMA is independent when we take our individual decisions, but, as you say, it is absolutely accountable for those decisions, both to Parliament and to the courts. That is accountability for the choices that we make about where we set our priorities, accountability for the decisions that we take when we are exercising our functions, and accountability for the way that we go about doing that work. I think it is important to have accountability across all three areas.

On the strategic priorities, since I came into the role as chief executive and our new chair, Marcus Bokkerink, came into post, we have put a lot of focus on really setting out very clearly what our strategic priorities are, looking at impact and beneficial outcomes for people, businesses and the economy as a whole. We see those as a trio of objectives that are fundamentally reinforcing, rather than in tension with one another.

We also take account of the Government’s strategic steer. That is in draft at the moment. You can see that there is a lot of commonality between our own strategic priorities that we set out in our annual plan and in the Government’s strategic steer. That sets a very clear framework for our prioritisation.

Will might want to come in on how we will set the priorities for the DMU.

Will Hayter: We are obviously thinking very carefully about where to prioritise action under the strategic market status regime. We cannot jump too far ahead with that, because Parliament is going through this process now and we have to see where the Bill comes out, but, as Sarah says, we will be targeting our effort very firmly at those areas where the biggest problems and the biggest current harmful impacts on people, businesses and the economy are likely to be.

You can get a bit of a sense of what those areas might be from the areas we have looked at already, particularly the digital advertising market, search, social media, interactions between the platforms and news publishers, and also mobile ecosystems. We did a big study there, where we see a range of problems stemming from the market power of the two big operating systems.

We will continue to update our thinking as we go through the next year-plus, building on our horizon-scanning work and understanding of how developments in the markets are shaping up and what that might mean for where the problems are.

Q First, thank you for the work that you do. You are obviously an independent body and you make difficult decisions. You receive more scrutiny than we have ever seen before, with the CMA’s higher profile, and at times that must put you under quite a lot of strain. I appreciate the work that you do. You make the decisions as you see fit, of course, but those often come with criticisms, so thank you.

My question is about innovation. If you speak to some of those who are likely to be designated SMS—strategic market status—businesses, many of them might say, “Well, this will inhibit innovation from our businesses.” I think part of that is about the power to look ahead at where this may take us. What do you say to that? If one of those platforms was opening a new type of supermarket, for example, it might be claimed that this would limit innovation. How would you respond to that?

Sarah Cardell: I have a couple of points, and Will might come in. The general point is that this regime is very much pro-competition and pro-innovation, both from the major platforms, which are likely to be designated in relation to some of their activities, and across the economy. It is important that we encourage innovation that supports competing businesses, large and small. You can have innovation that supports an incumbent by allowing that incumbent to offer additional services, but sometimes at the cost of entrenching their market position. We want to ensure that we have an environment that enables those major players to continue to innovate, sparked and incentivised by the competitive pressure that they are facing, but equally allows smaller competitors to thrive and innovate too. That is the broad point.

As we have said, it is a very targeted and bespoke regime. We will be focusing only on areas where there is substantial and entrenched market power already. Therefore, the principal point is that businesses, large and small, will continue to be free to innovate and to develop their products and services. Of course we want to ensure that that happens in a way that does not reinforce positions of market power. Will, you might want to come in on that.

Will Hayter: As Sarah says, this is all about creating a fertile environment for innovation, and you can think about that at at least three levels. First, it might be that those companies are innovating on top of the platforms that we are talking about here—in mobile ecosystems, through app stores, mobile browsers, and so on. Secondly, there are companies that are seeking to compete directly against some of the big platforms, and we want to ensure that there is a possibility that the current incumbents will be knocked off their perch by tomorrow’s innovators. Finally, increasing competition should increase the pressure on the incumbents—the most powerful firms—to innovate further themselves, in a way that delivers the greatest benefits for people, businesses and the economy.

Q Would you therefore say that those kinds of worries are ill-founded and that that is not something that would prohibit an SMS organisation from innovating?

Sarah Cardell: I do not think that there is anything in the Bill that prohibits innovation. The fundamental design, and certainly the way that we would intend to operate it, is entirely pro-innovation. We want to ensure that, as the designated companies continue to seek to develop and grow their businesses—of course they will want to, and that brings many benefits—that happens in a way that does not entrench their position, which is disadvantageous either to consumers or to competing businesses. That does not inhibit innovation, but it puts some guardrails around that innovation to ensure that the impact of that is beneficial and positive.

We now come to a quick-fire round. We have six minutes left and four Members seeking to ask questions, so we want quick questions and quick answers.

Q Do you have the resources to take on the new powers?

Sarah Cardell: The short answer is yes. We are well funded in terms of our budget. We are carrying out significant recruitment, and we have a good breadth of expertise, which is particularly important to developing our digital data technology expertise. We have done a lot of that already, but it remains a key focus.

Q Do you have an in-house legal team, or will you be taking on additional lawyers, given that it has taken legal action against some companies even to get to this point?

Sarah Cardell: We have very substantial legal resources internally. We have a legal directorate of around 150 people. We will be growing our resource by more than 200 people over the next two years, and growing substantially outside London, which will be key for us.

And—

We will have to move on, I am afraid.

Q I want to ask what success is and what it looks like. Is success giving my consumers greater choice and lower prices, and my businesses ensuring that the UK is an attractive place to invest compared with other markets? If that is the definition of success, how do you measure it both domestically, compared with what has happened in the past, and internationally, compared with other markets?

Sarah Cardell: The brief answer is that in our annual plan we set out our measure of outcomes: benefits for people in terms of great choices and fair deals; benefits for businesses in terms of enabling them to compete, innovate and thrive; and benefits for the economy as a whole in terms of growing productively and sustainably. That applies across the new suite of roles, powers and responsibilities. If you are looking at outcomes for people, what is the impact on prices and choice? Can people access their data? Can they move between services more effectively? What is the impact on businesses? Can they get fair and reasonable terms when they are reliant on the infrastructure of some of these major players in order to innovate and grow? Are we seeing innovation coming from smaller businesses as well as the incumbents? When we look at the benefit for the economy as a whole, do we see the flow-through of greater competition, improving productivity and improving growth? We have our “State of UK competition” report, which reports on that, and that will continue to be an important metric.

We are taking on responsibility for an annual consumer protection study, again looking at areas of consumer concern and the impact of interventions we are taking. You mentioned international benchmarks; I think that is really important. Obviously, a lot of these issues, especially on the digital side, are international in nature. We want to see benefits in terms of changes in international trends—there is a real opportunity here for the UK to set the model for positive regulatory intervention in digital markets, and for that to be adopted by others—and real benefits for UK businesses in terms of their ability to grow and innovate, and the investment that that attracts from overseas.

Q Really quickly—will you be watching our market compared with what is happening in other markets?

Sarah Cardell: As one of our factors, absolutely.

Q You say that open, competitive markets are good for growth. I totally agree, but we are one market among a global series of markets. Building on what Vicky Ford just said, where do you see this regulatory innovation sitting? You have referenced the EU and what it is doing, and there are other things going on in the US. Will this draw investment into the UK in this sector, or will it make people say, “Hmm, I’m not sure”?

Sarah Cardell: I firmly believe it will draw investment in. Will, do you have a couple of examples of people you have spoken to?

Will Hayter: You have app developers who are wanting to provide a service through these mobile ecosystems that have pent-up business—I think you are talking to one of them later—waiting to be invested in and to grow. There is also a UK-based search engine looking for opportunities to expand. Those are exactly the kind of businesses that are trying to grow and want this kind of regulatory infrastructure to create the conditions to do that.

Q When I go back to my constituency in Watford tonight and speak to people on the street, what can I tell them will make a difference to their lives, in the simplest terms?

Sarah Cardell: It is opening up choice; it is opening up access to the fullest range of services. It is enabling them to have confidence that their data will be used in an effective way and that they can move between different products and services so that they do not get locked in. When we think about the consumer side, daily we hear and see so much about consumer detriment. We are working as hard as we can to address that, but the consumer reforms will enable us to take a massive step up in terms of the impact we can deliver, the speed with which we can tackle their concern,s and the effectiveness with which we can deliver improved outcomes for people.

Q Will they see that happen, or will they need to be involved in the process to report where there are issues?

Sarah Cardell: Both. On engagement, we work very much with bodies such as Which? and Citizens Advice, which I know you are hearing from shortly, so we have a lot coming in. That is really important, because when we make the choices about the work we are doing, they need to be informed directly by consumer concerns, not be something that we just think is the right thing to do. We want to deliver that visible impact.

George Lusty: I think your constituents will see the CMA directly taking decisions. When we find that something has broken the law, they will find that we are taking direct orders to get their money back for them, and we will be imposing deterrent fines on the firms that do not do the right thing.

I thank our three stellar witnesses very much indeed for their time this morning. We wish you continued success at the CMA.

Examination of Witnesses

Rocio Concha and Matthew Upton gave evidence.

I welcome Rocio Concha, director of policy and advocacy and chief economist at Which?, and Matthew Upton, acting executive director of policy and advocacy at Citizens Advice. Thank you for coming this morning. Would you be kind enough to introduce yourselves to the Committee for the record?

Rocio Concha: I am Rocio Concha, the director of policy and advocacy, and the chief economist at Which?.

Matthew Upton: I am Matthew Upton. I am the acting executive director of policy and advocacy at Citizens Advice.

Q Thank you for coming to give us evidence today. I have a couple of questions. First, will you outline how you see the Bill delivering consumer benefits, and how you will seek to measure that impact? Secondly, the Government announced with much fanfare that the Bill would tackle the practice of fake reviews, but they are not mentioned in the legislation; they are instead left to a delegated power. Do you think that more action is needed on fake reviews, and how concerned are you that the Bill will not deliver on the changes needed?

Rocio Concha: Let me start by saying that we are fully supportive of the Bill. We think that it will modernise competition policy and consumer policy in the UK, and that it will deliver clear benefit for consumers, businesses and the economy.

We are very supportive of part 1 of the Bill, which you discussed with the previous panel and which is about the additional powers to introduce a pro-competition regime. That is very important and we think that the regime will be proportionate and flexible, and will deliver benefit to consumers by providing more choice and lower prices.

One thing to say is that it important to look at the regime in its totality. The CMA explained that the regime is very proportionate and consultative. For it to work, it is important that the appeal process is on a judicial review basis, which is what is proposed in the Bill. That should be maintained as the Bill goes through Parliament. Obviously, we are very supportive of the new powers for the CMA to fine directly companies that breach consumer law. Why? Because that is a stronger deterrent to those businesses that may decide to ignore the law.

We are also very supportive of the Secretary of State having the power to act on the practices set out in schedule 18 that are clearly unfair. Why? Because we need a flexible system, particularly in the digital space where things move very quickly. We need that flexibility in the system as we identify additional areas.

You mentioned fake reviews. We welcome the commitment to include fake reviews in the Bill, but basically the commitment is that that will be introduced by the Secretary of State. We do not think that we should wait. Clearly, fake reviews are harmful, so the buying, selling and hosting of fake reviews should be included in schedule 18. We think that drip pricing is another practice that is very harmful. There is a lot of evidence that that is the case, and it should be included on the face of the Bill.

How will we measure this? When we look at our work and at the areas we want to focus on, we do quite a lot on consumer detriment; we also work with the Government and the CMA to see what the big areas of detriment are. We expect to see changes in the behaviours of some companies that decide not to follow the law. With the previous panel, you talked about, for example, the measures that the CMA took in the past on secondary ticketing companies, such as Viagogo. That took six years—six years of harm for consumers. We expect that, after the Bill becomes an Act, we will see action and that all those crimes that do harm will be resolved more quickly.

Q Thank you very much. This question may be more for Mr Upton. The Bill goes some way towards tackling the problem of subscription traps, but it does not go as far as what Citizens Advice has called for, or indeed the Labour party’s policy of making subscription renewals opt in rather than opt out. Why do you think that the legislation needs further safeguards? Why, in the light of your experience, is that important for protecting consumers from harm?

Matthew Upton: We have been asking for action on subscription traps for a long time. Any action is positive, but we are seeing this in the context of a cost of living crisis, where anything that takes cash out of people’s pockets stops them getting by from day to day. To be honest, we think that the intent is right, but this is potentially a huge missed opportunity for action on subscription traps. We have to understand how high the incentive is for firms to trap people in subscriptions. There is a huge amount of money to be made, to the extent that it changes the whole incentive structure so that for many firms, rather than thinking about how to provide a quality subscription, the rational thing to do is think about how to design the worst possible customer journey and to trap someone, whether through an online process that makes it difficult to cancel something—you will all have experience of this—or, to give a slightly facetious example, a process whereby you can cancel only when you ring between 2 and 2.30 on a Tuesday and you have wait for 45 minutes in the queue.

Obviously, we want to change that incentive structure so that we have a flourishing subscription economy, which should be encouraged, where consumers want to stay in subscriptions and firms focus on providing quality subscriptions. We do not think that the Bill as it stands will do that. For example, it says that exit has to be timely and straightforward. We do not think that that will work. We have been here before, if we think back to utility bills four or five years ago, when there was a big push to stop people rolling on to expensive contracts and to get them to switch. Regulators were focused on trying to dictate what went into letters to consumers about their renewals. Firms could make so much money by obeying the letter but not the spirit of the regulation that they would find ways round it, and switching rates did not go up. We think that the same will happen here.

The specific change that would make a huge difference and is legislatively straightforward is to provide that, at the end of an annual trial subscription, the default is that the consumer opts out. That is not about things like car insurance, where there is a detriment to people opting out, but for basic subscriptions, opt-out should be the default. That would allow firms to use all their ingenuity, power and influence to persuade consumers to stay in. They could go for it—send as many reminders as they wanted; that is absolutely fine. If the subscription is good, a consumer will stay in. That change will make the difference. We have done some polling on this and about 80% of people agree that that should happen. We think that it will put millions of pounds back in people’s pockets, that it is proportionate and that it will encourage a flourishing subscription economy.

Q Rocio, on your point about including fake reviews on the face of the Bill, our intention is to legislate in this area. I do not know whether you have seen the evidence from Trustpilot, which was submitted as written evidence. It rightly points to the fact that most of the discussion around fake reviews thus far has been about products rather than services. Does not that illustrate that we need to consult properly about that to ensure that we get the legislation right? Isn’t there a risk that we could get it wrong by rushing to stick this on the face of the Bill?

Rocio Concha: A provision on fake reviews in the Bill should apply to both products and services. There is evidence to show that fake reviews also harm services. I do not think that there is a major risk. We and the CMA have produced a lot of evidence about how fake reviews are endemic on some sites. We have demonstrated the harm that they cause. It is clear what is needed. We know that we need to look at selling, buying and hosting. I do not see a risk to including such a provision on the face of the Bill. Then, in secondary legislation—

Q Even though there might be some things we have not thought about at this point in time. That would be a good example in terms of Trustpilot’s evidence.

Rocio Concha: If there is something that needs to be improved, you can always do it with the Secretary of State’s power later. There is quite clear evidence to provide a clear steer on what is an unfair practice. Obviously, as with anything in schedule 18, you have that power to modify, to add to the practice as more evidence comes in. We will provide enough evidence to the Committee to show that it can be introduced on the face of the Bill.

Q Sure, okay. Mr Upton, on subscription traps, do you not feel that the powers that the Bill affords the CMA on civil penalties will address some of the concerns you highlight of people trying to get around the rules, for example? Would that not be something it could act on when it sees gratuitous behaviour such as what you describe?

Matthew Upton: I think it could, but we worry that it will not in reality. It is quite difficult to decide, for example, what constitutes easy and timely exit from a contract. You cannot necessarily measure it incredibly specifically, and I could imagine enforcement being really complicated. I could imagine firms dragging their feet, despite the way powers would speed up the ability of the CMA to act, as I say, because the incentive structure is so great.

One reason for the growth of the subscription economy is that it is a great way to provide services, but another is that it is such an easy way to make money by trapping people in. That is our firm belief and what our evidence shows. I just think a simple default would be much more effective than basically having the CMA chasing its tail and chasing firms. It would not be of any detriment to good firms who want to provide really solid subscriptions that people should want to stay in.

Q The EU has a right to redress for consumers, and there is a schedule in the Bill that would allow the Secretary of State to introduce that again in future through secondary legislation. Do either of you have any sort of sense of the extent to which UK consumers might be at risk of being at detriment compared with their EU counterparts while that secondary legislation is not in place?

Rocio Concha: Our view is that it should be on the face of the Bill. We do not know why the right to redress has not been transposed into the Bill. From our perspective, we do not want to leave it for the Secretary of State to decide once we have an Act. It should be included.

The other thing is that the right of redress does not cover all the practice in schedule 18, only misleading practice and aggressive practice. It does not really cover all the list of unfair practice in schedule 18. I think that the right to redress should also cover that.

Q On fake reviews, the challenge that came up at Second Reading was about how we might define, judge and act on them. How do you think it is best to tackle the problem of fake reviews? Have you any suggestions while we are engaged in this consultation?

Rocio Concha: You mean how—

How could we legislate create the framework by which the problem of fake reviews could be best addressed?

Rocio Concha: I think it needs to be in the list on schedule 18, and there is a very simple way to draft that amendment. We are going to suggest an amendment to help you with that, so I do not think that it is a major difficulty to include it on the face of the Bill.

Q You are both at the coalface for consumers in terms of the challenges around all the issues addressed by the Bill. Can you briefly share some real-life examples of why the Bill is so important and what difference it will make to consumers?

Rocio Concha: I can give you some examples from the past so that you can see what consumers face. I already talked about the secondary ticketing problem, but I will give you another example. During covid, there were a lot of issues about people getting their refunds that they were entitled to by law. Many people could not really get them. I will give you another example on the digital side—that was on the consumer side.

At the moment, as you have heard from the CMA, digital advertising is basically controlled by two companies, Google and Facebook. Google has doubled its revenue from digital advertising since 2011 and Facebook used to make less than £5 per user—more recently, it has been around £50 per user. Google charges around 30% more for paid-for advertising than other search engines. All that cost translates into the products that we buy. We expect that once this pro-innovation, pro-competitive regulatory framework is put in place we will see it translate into prices.

We will also see it translate into more choice, in particular on data. At the moment, it is very difficult for consumers to have a choice on how much of our data is used for targeted advertising. You will have seen examples of that. When we talk to consumers in particular on the issues surrounding data, they feel disempowered. When we talk to consumers about the problems that they face in some of the markets where there are high levels of detriment, they also feel disempowered.

Matthew Upton: To be clear, there is a lot of good in the Bill. I echo Rocio’s first comments that there are a lot of positives. It has been a long time coming, and is a testament to the civil servants in the Department who have stuck with it. The main lens through which we see the impacts of the potential changes in the Bill is the cost of living. It is not exactly headline news that people are struggling with their bills. One of the main measures that we look at is whether one of our clients is in a negative budget: whether their income meets their essential outgoings. About 52% of our debt advice clients can no longer meet their essential—not desirable—outgoings with their income.

There are two areas where the Bill can make a real difference. One of the frustrations is that a debt adviser will go in detail through someone’s income and where they spend their money, helping them to balance their bills, and so on. You see the impact of other Government interventions, such as energy price support, putting money in their pockets and uprating benefits. You are combing through their expenditure and you find something like a subscription trial taking £10 a month—a huge amount for a lot of our clients—unnecessarily out of their account. They did not even know that it was there. Often, it is people who are not online, are not savvy, and are not combing their bills every month because they have a lot on. That is hugely frustrating, and things like this, especially if strengthened, could tackle that.

You will see similar things where people are just about balancing their monthly income with their expenditure and they get hit by some big scam bill or are let down by a company. Such companies are too often not held to account in the right way. It is a bit of a tangential example in some ways, but the hope is that the CMA’s increased ability to act and, in effect, to disincentivise poor behaviour towards consumers will lessen such instances as well.

We have 12 minutes left, and five Members are seeking to ask questions, so we need to increase the pace.

Q Electrical Safety First and the British Toy & Hobby Association have described Amazon and other online platforms as a bit of a wild west when it comes to product safety for consumers. I appreciate that you both support the Bill as a step forward, but what is missing for consumers when it comes to product safety? Is it a new sheriff for the wild west?

Rocio Concha: Definitely. Legislation is required to ensure that online platforms take responsibility for the products that they sell on their platforms. We have done lots of reviews and gathered evidence that shows that consumers in the UK can buy very unsafe products on those platforms. Online platforms should be doing more to tackle that issue. The issue probably requires separate legislation, but I want to make it clear that we need legislation, and we need it now.

Q So this is a missed opportunity. There is nothing within clauses 67 to 82 on the investigatory powers that would allow for sufficient tackling of unsafe products, including toys reaching children.

Rocio Concha: No, I do not think that what is in the Bill will really tackle the issue.

That is disappointing.

Matthew Upton: I have nothing to add.

Q Mr Upton, I want to come back to you about subscription traps. You are saying that the requirement in the Bill that subscription cancellation should be a timely process is not sufficiently detailed. I declare an interest: in a former life, I used to help write European regulations. Is it not an absolutely basic tenet of writing regulations that you design outcomes— you do not list processes unless you absolutely have to, because things change? Given that point, are the Government, or the drafters of this Bill, not correct to focus on the outcome required and leave the process alone?

Matthew Upton: In a sense, I disagree with you because I agree with your point about it being outcomes-focused. In a sense, you are right; it leaves it fairly open, which gives some space for people to interpret, but I think what will end up happening is that firms will get around those provisions in various ways. They will tweak the subscriptions to find other ways to find people to step in. We will have a game of whack-a-mole, where we chase around trying to clamp down, a little bit like we had in the utility-switching space of four or five years ago. Ultimately, whether people agree or not, that led to much heavier intervention in the market.

Just taking one step to move towards opt-out—in a sense, you are right; it is a process step—is incredibly simple in terms of aligning the incentives. I think that would mean you would have to do less of the tweaking, constant interventions and prodding of firms. It just sets up the incentives in a much more simple way.

Q Is the intervention not actually the exact opposite of what you are suggesting, in that, if you have a stricter requirement within the regulations, people find ways to get round that strict interpretation, but if you have an outcomes-focused statement as is currently in the Bill, the onus is on the companies to demonstrate compliance, and the CMA, with the fining power of 10% of global turnover, has the stick with which to enforce it?

Matthew Upton: I disagree, because I think the simplicity of simply saying, “You opt out at the end of a period” gives clarity. I think it is easier for firms to interpret. In reality, under the current set-up, I do not think you will see a lot of firms thinking in a positive way about how to interpret it. I think they will think about how they can push as far as possible.

Customer journey design is so complex—this is the challenge of emerging digital markets. It is not a case of being able to say, “You have two click-through screens versus three,” so that constitutes easy or hard. There are incredibly subtle ways to make it difficult. I think a lot of firms would continue to put their efforts into thinking about how they can stay as close as possible to the law to avoid CMA sanctions, while effectively still making it psychologically and in reality difficult for consumers. An opt-out would just simplify it, and would take that thought process off the table for firms.

Q You mentioned schedule 18 already and some of the missed opportunities that you see there. Some things that have been highlighted are drip pricing and misleading green advertising. Can I push you a bit further on the missed opportunities in schedule 18?

Rocio Concha: In what respect? On why we want them there?

Yes. What you would like to be in there.

Rocio Concha: As I said, we would like to see fake reviews and drip pricing included, because there is clear evidence on them. There is also this issue of greenwashing. That should also be considered to be put in schedule 18 —we feel that we know enough to include it there. We have not done as much work in that area as we have on drip pricing and fake reviews, but we would be very supportive of including it in schedule 18.

Why do we want these areas in the Bill, versus them being included later under the Secretary of State’s powers? If they are not in the Bill, they will not be criminal offences, and they should be, because that will be a more credible deterrent for stopping these practices.

Q When the CMA was answering Dean Russell’s question about how consumers will feel the benefits, one of the things it pointed to was its greater powers to fine companies that are misbehaving. Do you not think that the threat of fines on companies will have a trickle-down benefit to the consumers, and that it will mean that companies will think harder about not acting in ways that are to the detriment of consumers?

Rocio Concha: Absolutely. That is one of the powers of that power. Basically, companies will know that they will not be able to drag the system for years, as happened with Viagogo and some anti-virus subscriptions. They will know that the CMA will be able to act directly. Hopefully, that will make businesses that do not want to comply with the law think twice.

Matthew Upton: I really agree. I cannot share a specific example, but we have had a lot of conversations with regulators and competition authorities after we have uncovered bad practice. We have said, “Listen—go after them.” We were met with a frustrated shrug of the shoulders—“There’s no point because they will run rings around us for a huge amount of time and we will end up with nothing. We have to use our powers where we can more clearly have impact.” As you say, that should now end. In a sense, we are more positive about the disincentive for poor behaviour than the fines themselves.

Rocio Concha: There is an opportunity in the Bill to make that deterrent even stronger. At the moment, in part 1 of the Bill there is the opportunity for private redress, which will allow businesses or consumers to apply to the court for compensation from companies that have breached the conduct requirements in part 1. It is very unlikely that consumers like each of us or a small business will use that power in the courts. But if we allowed collective redress—the co-ordination of consumers and businesses to get redress—that would be for those companies a credible additional deterrent against breaking the law. That is in part 1, in relation to competition.

There is also the opportunity to include a provision within the breaches of consumer law. At the moment, collective redress is allowed for breaches of competition law, but not for breaches of consumer law.

You have given us a simple, practical way to end subscription traps through the opt-out. Do you have any other simple, practical amendments in the locker that would help better protect my consumers in Southend-on-Sea?

Matthew Upton: I have a very simple one, which echoes what Rocio said earlier: to add drip pricing to the list of banned practices.

Rocio Concha: For me, it would be fake reviews. As I said, we will suggest the drafting of amendments, to make that easy to include in the Bill.

I thank our witnesses very much indeed for your precious time this morning; we appreciate it.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Mike Wood.)

Order. We resume consideration of the Bill. I am speaking slowly in the hope that the shadow Minister may appear at the last moment—

He was just behind me.

Hopefully, then, he will be here very shortly.

We will resume our marathon consideration of the Energy Bill this morning with the Question that clause 171 stand part of the Bill. That, of course, is grouped with a number of other things: clauses 172 to 174, amendment 101, schedule 16, clauses 175 to 179, and new clause 39. To remind the Minister in case he slips again, the Question will be that clause 171 stand part of the Bill.

I welcome the shadow Minister to his place—all I have done so far is announce the first group. I call the Minister to speak to it.

Clause 171

Relevant heat network

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Clauses 172 to 174 stand part.

Amendment 101, in schedule 16, page 335, line 37, at end insert—

“(aa) their interests in systems that deliver heat efficiently;”.

This amendment defines consumers’ interests expressly to include efficient heat delivery in order to ensure that regulation covers systems that are operational but are operating inefficiently to the detriment of customers.

That schedule 16 be the Sixteenth schedule to the Bill.

Clauses 175 to 179 stand part.

New clause 39—Guarantee for consumer protection—

“(1) Within three months of the day on which this Act is passed, Ofgem must set out a new licence to operate for heat networks that guarantees equivalent protections for heat network customers compared when compared with electricity and gas customers.

(2) Protections under subsection (1) must include but are not limited to—

(a) a price cap for heat network customers;

(b) a licence condition to “treat customers fairly”, analogous to Licence Condition 0 of the electricity and gas supplier licences; and

(c) a licence condition addressing “ability to pay”, analogous to Licence Condition 27A of the electricity and gas supplier licences.”

This new clause would guarantee that heat network customers receive equal treatment to electricity and gas customers.

Thank you, Mr Gray. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship yet again in this marathon but exciting and engrossing Committee.

Part 7 of the Bill relates to heat networks. The purpose of clause 171 is to define a heat network, clarifying the scope of heat networks regulation. As well as defining “relevant heat network”, the clause includes definitions for both communal and district heat networks.

A heat network provides heating, cooling or hot water to a building or collection of buildings, and its users. A communal heat network supplies heat to one building whereas a district heat network supplies two or more buildings. In both cases, the network must serve separate consumers or premises within the building or buildings to be considered a heat network. The clause provides a clear distinction between communal and district heat networks, which may require different legislative approaches. The definitions explicitly include networks that use heat pumps.

Clause 172 appoints the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority—Ofgem, for the avoidance of doubt—as the heat networks regulator for England, Scotland and Wales, and the Utility Regulator as the regulator for Northern Ireland. The Secretary of State—or, in Northern Ireland, the Department for the Economy—can, via regulations, change the regulator or change who carries out some of the regulator’s functions, assigning them to another body. For ease and clarity, whenever I refer to “the Department” in relation to heat network clauses, I am referring to the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland.

Clause 172 also provides consequential regulation-making powers for the Secretary of State and the Department to amend this part of the Bill if the regulator is changed or some of its functions are reassigned. This is important to ensure that heat networks regulation remains agile.

Clause 173 provides the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland power to amend the Alternative Dispute Resolution for Consumer Disputes (Competent Authorities and Information) Regulations 2015 to provide for the regulator in Northern Ireland to be the competent authority for the purpose of those regulations. Amendments made under this power would enable the regulator in Northern Ireland to appoint a body as the alternative dispute resolution body in Northern Ireland.

The purpose of clause 174 is to allow the Secretary of State or the Department to regulate relevant heat networks and grant powers to those carrying out activities related to building or maintaining heat networks. Schedule 16 provides further details on the planned use of those powers. Under the clause, the Secretary of State or the Department will be required to consult on any changes before making any regulations under clause 171. Clause 174 also requires UK Ministers to consult Scottish Ministers when legislating in areas that are devolved to Scotland.

Will the Minister give way?

I rather expected that. I am happy to.

I thank the Minister; he almost invited the intervention. This is about consultation on matters that are fully devolved. We had a meeting, and the Minister expressed sympathy for our position on the need to find a way to strengthen the “consult” language so that it is not the Secretary of State imposing something. I wonder if he has any further information on that.

I thank the hon. Member for his question. I received a letter from the Energy Minister in the Scottish Government, Neil Gray, just last week—I am formulating a response just now—on the very issue of consultation and consents. Discussions are ongoing as to the exact form that will take.

Clause 175 outlines the parliamentary procedures required for the regulations made under clause 174.

Clause 176 establishes that the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority—commonly referred to as GEMA—and the Northern Ireland Authority for Utility Regulation can recover the costs of regulating heat networks using gas and electricity licence fees. The Bill allows the recovery of costs for other bodies operating within the regulatory framework, such as the code manager and other bodies appointed to administer specific functions in regulation. The Government previously consulted on their proposed approach to cost recovery and received broad stakeholder support. The clause will facilitate the implementation of that approach and ensure that heat network regulation is sustainably and fairly funded.

Clause 177 provides power for the Secretary of State to designate, via regulations, GEMA as the licensing authority for the purposes of the Heat Networks (Scotland) Act 2021. The Scottish Government and other stakeholders have agreed to Ofgem being the regulator across all of Great Britain.

Clause 178 enables the Secretary of State to amend, via regulations, the Heat Networks (Scotland) Act 2021 to give the licensing authority compliance monitoring and enforcement powers under that Act. We intend to designate Ofgem as the licensing authority. That designation and the regulations will allow Ofgem to carry out this regulatory role in Scotland. Regulations under this clause must provide that offences created by the regulations are triable summarily only and punishable by a maximum of three months in prison or a fine not exceeding £200, or both.

I thank the Minister for giving way again. He mentioned the possible imprisonment of up to three months. That seems to cross over into the Scottish justice system, because the Scottish Government have effectively set a presumption against short sentences. This would clearly be a short prison sentence, so how would that work in reality, against the wishes of sentencing legislation in Scotland?

The hon. Member makes a good point. As I said, the Scottish Government have agreed to Ofgem being the regulator across Great Britain. I will go away and find a detailed answer to his point, which is well made—indeed, it is important to my constituents—about how the crossover will work with the Scottish justice system. It is a completely devolved competency, which we, of course, respect.

Clause 179 provides definitions for the interpretation of this chapter’s clauses. The clause defines “the Department” as the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland and “the NIAUR” as the Northern Ireland Authority for Utility Regulation.

Schedule 16 covers heat network regulation. Part 1 of the schedule provides definitions of the terms used in the schedule. Part 2 allows the Secretary of State to make regulations about the regulator’s objectives. The main objective of the regulator will be to protect the interests of current and future heat network consumers. Part 3 covers heat network authorisations. The authorisation regime will ensure consistent standards across the industry, raising consumer protections. To carry out regulated activities, persons will be required to comply with conditions of authorisation, and the regulator will have the powers to enforce compliance.

Part 4 covers code governance in relation to heat networks, and part 5 covers the installation and maintenance of licences. Holders of licences will have the additional powers required for installing and maintaining heat network equipment. The regulations may require the regulator to be satisfied that the person applying for the licence is suitable, as well as the criteria they must use when making this judgment.

Part 6 covers the enforcement of conditions in licences or authorisations. The regulator is able to issue orders and penalties when a person is likely to contravene or has contravened a condition. Orders can be used to require compliance with a condition. If breaking a condition has caused damage, loss or inconvenience for a consumer, the regulator can make a consumer redress order.

Part 7 covers the regulator’s powers of investigation. Although it is not considered appropriate to introduce a price cap on the cost of heat provided by heat networks now, the Government do intend to provide for the regulator to investigate whether the prices charged are disproportionate. That enables the regulator to take enforcement action against authorised persons charging disproportionate prices.

Part 8 covers step-in arrangements. The purpose of the arrangements is to facilitate the transfer of a regulated activity in relation to a heat network to a new entity, should the old entity no longer be able to carry on that activity. Part 9 covers the special administration regime. Similar to the provision for other essential services such as gas and electricity markets, this alters the normal administration process to allow for the continued supply of heat. It provides the ability to deploy a backstop should other actions to protect heat supply fail.

Part 10 allows regulations about the supply of heat to premises, including new connections and the metering of supply, and part 11 covers protections for consumers. Part 12 covers payments from the sector to support the special administration regime. It allows for regulations that will authorise the regulator to charge heat networks, via their authorisation conditions, to fund the regime. In that way, the regime spreads the cost of a firm failing across all companies. This is a fair and proportionate way of funding the regime.

Finally, part 13 covers a range of topics, including consultation and co-operation, the objectives of the Secretary of State and Departments across the UK in carrying out their functions, and the creation of offences. I hope Members agree that heat networks play an important role in decarbonising heat and supporting the delivery of our net zero commitments.

There is no interest from elsewhere. The Question therefore is—[Interruption.] If the shadow Minister wishes to take part in the debate, he needs to let me know; otherwise, we will move on.

I did raise my hand, but it was my left hand rather than my right hand.

You might stand up—that might be helpful in future—or tell me, or something.

I should start by apologising to you, Mr Gray, for being marginally late. Those who know me will know that although I am usually rather close to the line in getting to my seat, I am rarely not actually there in time. I apologise for that slight problem this morning; I blame the lifts in Parliament.

The regulation of the whole system of heat networks, and combined heat and power for district heating schemes, is an important part of the Bill, which is long overdue in its arrival. Members will be increasingly familiar with district heating schemes in their constituencies, which provide heat, power and sometimes cooling both to properties and to industrial and commercial premises within a network scheme.

District heating schemes are by no means new. A number of them have been operating for many years, such as the system in Pimlico—the system in Westminster has been going for many years. Partly because such schemes have been going for many years, they have fallen out of the spotlight in terms of regulation and bringing their provisions into line with what customers expect from elsewhere in the energy system, particularly in relation to customer-facing retail and so on.

Because district heating schemes are enclosed, they are essentially monopoly providers of heat within their own area. They are generally advantageous to customers because they provide reliable heat, usually at a considerably lower price than the general market. The Government are seeking to promote the idea of local authorities extending heat networks for precisely those reasons. They are potentially very low carbon, and agnostic in terms of heat sources for the network. The key is that the network goes around a particular area, providing heat directly to people’s homes, and, as I said, to offices and industrial premises.

In many ways the schemes just do not fit: they stand aside from what customers are normally expected to pay attention to these days, and the energy, gas, heat and power that they receive. As I said, that is because the heat networks in this country, and indeed the combined heat and power systems relating to heat networks, quite often provide electricity as a by-product of the heat-engine process. But they predominantly provide heat for customers.

A number of problems relate to the customer arrangements, and customer expectations, regarding that closed system. Because each of the individual extant networks in the country is effectively a mini-business in its own right, they have at their heart an arrangement whereby a company, not-for-profit or local authority, in some instances, that runs a scheme is responsible for procuring the fuel as if it were a retail energy company for the network, and then supplying it to customers through the heat engine and the network that goes into people’s homes.

The issue for customers is quite often, first, whether the company that is providing supplies for the heat network has procured them in a reasonable and cost-efficient manner. Secondly, is the system that is delivering the heat for customers efficient in its own right? Particularly in older schemes, there are a number of circumstances in which the system provides heat to customers, but not efficiently. The pipework may be old, furred up and not functioning well. Of course, it is extremely difficult for the customer to recognise whether the system is efficient. Sometimes its inefficiency comes to light only when people start being charged unreasonably large bills. The company that is providing the service will then go through its reasoning about the supplies coming in and the service being provided, but not the efficiency of the service.

There is little customer redress in the systems because they generally are not regulated. They have voluntary regulation, run by the Association for Decentralised Energy, whereby heat networks sign up to a redress programme, but currently it covers only a minority of the total heat networks in operation. Bearing all those things in mind, as well as the system’s likely future, the system is long overdue being regulated in a way that delivers for customers the certainty of a good service, redress where the service is not so good, and access to an understanding of how the system as a whole works, and what the companies that provide the service are doing—hopefully in the interests of customers, but in some circumstances not.

The system as a whole works pretty well: most of the companies that run heat networks are honourable organisations, often set up on a not-for-profit basis to provide a district heating scheme. The issue is at the margins of those schemes that do not run their service particularly well, or that do not provide decent redress for their customers and have a monopoly situation as far as their supply is concerned.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. Like the shadow Minister, I broadly welcome these clauses and the principles behind them. I made a couple of interventions on the Minister. I cannot quite remember, but I have a feeling that clause 174 is not one of those referenced in the letter from Neil Gray, the Energy Minister in Scotland. I will go back and check that. The Scottish Government have concentrated on some of the key clauses, but I will check and reserve the right to come back on this issue on Report if need be. I appreciate that the Scottish Government are working with the Minister. I also appreciate the Minister saying he will come back on my query on clause 178.

As the shadow Minister said, heat networks have been debated in this place for a few years. I have found a couple of speeches of mine from two years ago, when matters were raised in Westminster Hall—primarily by Tory MPs—so this is welcome. If the Committee wants, I can give the thrust of my two speeches from back then, because it is still relevant, or I can just condense them if the Committee prefers. I will take the Chair’s guidance on that.

Condensing is always a good thing.

Why do we need this? This is why I also support new clause 39. As far back as 2017, the then director of the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy director stated that

“whatever you do you end up with 17- 24 per cent district heating”.

That means that some 6 million homes will have district heating, so it is important that we actually facilitate that to allow the transition to net zero. It is even more important that we provide protection for those 6 million homes, or people will not accept the principle of district heating and we will not get to net zero. At the moment, around half a million homes have some form of either district heating or communal hot water.

The numbers we are talking about mean that I agree with new clause 39 that a price cap is needed. It would give surety and protection to customers, and help avoid bad news stories as well. Even when I spoke two years ago, consumers and landlords were reporting price rises of up to 700%, according to a Heat Trust report. That illustrates the need for a cap and protection, so that people cannot just continue to ramp up costs.

Amendment 101 is a simple amendment, and I hope the Government will consider accepting it. It is almost administrative, but it does have qualities. I have in the past reported the fact that communal heat networks sometimes operate inefficiently because they are not subject to technical standards. Some contractors choose to complete heat system installations that come at the lowest form of capital cost, rather than the more efficient, longer-term operational systems that give whole-life savings. I wonder if amendment 101 would protect against that. Could the Minister advise us on how the new regulations will ensure that it is the most efficient systems that will be installed, to the benefit of customers and consumers?

Previously, the Government’s green energy support programme had to address the fact that some people in district networks were classified as commercial customers. That was because, as the shadow Minister has said, it is in effect small independent companies that operate these networks. We need to ensure that those classified as commercial customers are protected as much as domestic customers. I should have intervened on the shadow Minister, but I hope that new clause 39 would provide that protection. We welcome the provision, but in order to convert people to district heat networks, we really need wider, joined-up Government policy.

I welcome the broad welcome given by His Majesty’s official Opposition and the Scottish National party to the clauses. I tend to agree with the hon. Members for Southampton, Test and for Kilmarnock and Loudoun. These measures are long overdue, so I thank them again for their positive responses.

I will turn to the points made by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun regarding consent and consult. Notwithstanding my commitment to get an answer for him regarding the criminal justice system in Scotland and how it will interact with these new regulations and their administration in Scotland, I confirm that in the recent letter from the Energy Minister, Mr Gray, the Scottish Government have in fact dropped consent requests on heat networks, so they are very happy to proceed as drafted here. I wanted to give confirmation of that. I will turn to the hon. Gentleman’s other points later.

I thank the hon. Member for Southampton, Test for his amendments, which provide an opportunity to discuss in detail what we are doing here today and why we are not going as far as he suggests we should.

I turn to amendment 101. If not designed and built to high standards, heat networks can experience inefficiencies such as heat losses from the pipes that deliver hot water from the energy centre to homes and businesses. That can lead to consumers paying higher prices and experiencing unreliability of heat supply, as the hon. Member for Southampton, Test said. I reassure him and others that we already have a robust plan to address that issue. The Bill provides for the introduction of technical standards on the design and build of heat networks, which we committed to implementing as part of a regulatory framework in our 2020 heat networks regulation consultation. That will require all new heat networks to be designed and built to minimum standards, and existing networks to make efficiency and performance improvements over time.

As a regulator, Ofgem will enforce the requirement. Heat networks will be required to submit documentation to Ofgem demonstrating that their compliance with technical standards has been certified. As I have set out, the Bill and subsequent secondary legislation will give Ofgem powers to investigate and intervene in networks where prices for consumers appear to be disproportionate compared with systems and similar characteristics, or if prices are significantly higher than those consumers would expect to pay if they were served by an alternative heating system. Ofgem will also enforce minimum standards on the reliability and quality of the heat supply. I hope that reassures hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Southampton, Test, that the Government are already taking steps to improve efficiency on heat networks and—to address some points made by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun—to protect consumers from high prices and unreliability.

I turn to new clause 39, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Southampton, Test. Ensuring heat network consumers are protected from high prices and unreliability is our principal reason for introducing heat networks regulation, so I am pleased to see hon. Members recognising the importance of addressing the issue. I appreciate that they will want to see the sector regulated as soon as possible, which is one of the reasons we are progressing the Bill at this pace. However, it would not be possible nor sensible to ask Ofgem to require a licence regime within three months of the Bill receiving Royal Assent. Secondary legislation authorisation conditions are needed to enable Ofgem to operationalise as a regulator. We will conduct public consultations with industry and consumer groups on secondary legislation and authorisation conditions before they come into force. We expect heat networks regulation to come into force shortly after that.

I recognise that hon. Members want to ensure that heat network consumers do not pay disproportionate prices. However, we do not believe that a price cap is suitable for the sector, given its nascent and incredibly diverse state across the country. A price cap also risks heat network insolvencies prior to step-in arrangements being embedded into the regulatory framework. The Bill provides the Secretary of State with powers to introduce a price cap in future, should one become appropriate once the market has matured. I reassure hon. Members that we are taking steps to tackle high prices across the board.

Can the Minister give us more information on the mechanisms in the Bill that allow the Government to bring forward a cap in future?

As has been set out in the Bill and explained this morning, the powers will be given to the Secretary of State, determined at a point in future when the sector matures, which is exactly the process by which he can introduce a price cap. I think we have gone through that this morning.

Will the Minister write to me to give a little more detail on that?

Yes, I am happy to write to the hon. Gentleman and provide more detail on exactly that point.

The Bill and subsequent secondary legislation will give Ofgem powers to investigate and intervene in networks where prices for consumers appear to be disproportionate compared with systems with similar characteristics. It will also be able to investigate and intervene if prices are significantly higher than those consumers would expect to pay if they were served by an alternative heating system. We are taking action to address current high prices in the heat network sector. The energy bills discount scheme, which runs from 1 April 2023 to 31 March 2024, provides support to heat networks with domestic end consumers.

On conditions around treating customers fairly and ability-to-pay assessments, I am pleased to inform hon. Members that the Government already plan to consult on introducing comparable levels of service and protection to consumers in other regulated utilities as part of a public consultation on heat network consumer protection rules. We will publish that consultation in due course. I hope that reassures hon. Members that the Government are already taking steps to deliver regulation and tackle high prices in this sector. I therefore ask the hon. Member for Southampton, Test not to move his amendment 101.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 171 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

We now come to the Question on clauses 172 to 174 stand part—we have just debated them. With the leave of the Committee, I will take them together.

Do you want to know whether I am going to withdraw amendment 101, Mr Gray?

No. The hon. Gentleman should not interrupt me while I am putting the Question. In answer to him, however, his amendment 101 comes after the decision on clauses 172 to 174. I thank him for his intervention, but he is wrong.

Clauses 172 to 174 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

The Question now is whether the Opposition wish to move amendment 101.

I will include an indication of our position on new clause 39, Mr Gray, although I understand that any vote on the new clauses will take place at the end of our proceedings and not today. That is right, is it not? I will also say something on amendment 101.

The hon. Gentleman has already spoken to amendment 101 as part of the group that we have just debated.

Yes. I am seeking to state why I might wish to withdraw amendment 101, or otherwise, and in so doing I was seeking clarification, Mr Gray. My understanding is that new clause 39, which is included in the group, will not be up for a vote now, because that would come at the end of our proceedings.

That is correct. New clauses come at the end of proceedings. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to move amendment 101, he may do so now. Immediately after that, we will come to the Question on schedule 16 —that is the next thing to happen. The Question on new clause 39 comes at the end of our proceedings, so is for a decision later. Right now, the only question is whether he wishes to move amendment 101.

Yes. I was actually trying to save time, Mr Gray.

Leave that to me.

Right.

On amendment 101, I do not think that there is anything explicit in schedule 16 relating to the position of efficiency in regulation. Having had a look at the schedule again, I am confirmed in that view. I take what the Minister said about the intention to ensure that that is part of regulation, but I am afraid we are a little in the hands of what the Minister may decide about the regulations as far as efficiency goes. The Minister is an honourable one, so I am sure that he will seek to carry out what he has said today to the letter. I am therefore happy not to move amendment 101, but I note that that was one of the purposes of regulation should have been made rather more explicit in the schedule.

The amendment is therefore not moved.

Schedule 16 agreed to.

Clauses 175 to 179 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 180

Regulations about heat network zones

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Chapter 2 of part 7 covers heat network zoning in England. Heat network zoning is a key policy to deliver the scale of expansion of heat networks required to meet net zero. The process brings together local stakeholders and industry to identify and designate areas within which heat networks are expected to be the lowest-cost solution for decarbonising heating.

The clause provides a definition of heat network zones, gives the Secretary of State the general power to make regulations about heat network zones, and outlines the parliamentary procedures that must be followed when doing so.

Regulations made in relation to any of the following three matters will be subject to the negative procedure: first, any requirements on zone co-ordinators to consult on zone designations, revocations, or reviews; secondly, reviews of the designation of areas as heat network zones by zoning co-ordinators or the heat network zones authority; thirdly, any requirements for zone co-ordinators and the authority to consult on the zoning methodology, and reviews of the heat network zoning methodology by the Secretary of State. All other regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure.

I do not have much to say other than that we now move on to heat network zones as opposed to heat networks themselves, and we will be debating what the term means and how the zones work. Clause 180 sets the stage, and as we will be debating amendments on a future clause, I have nothing further to say about this one.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 180 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 181

Heat Network Zones Authority

I beg to move amendment 102, in clause 181, page 152, line 27, after “the Secretary of State” insert

“or the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority”.

This amendment is to ensure that the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority may be designated as the regulator for heat network zones.

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 115, in clause 181, page 152, line 30, at end insert—

“(5) The Heat Network Zones Authority shall be responsible to and regulated by the regulator.”

This amendment makes the regulator responsible for Heat Network Zones.

Clauses 181 and 182 stand part.

We have tabled two amendments to clause 181. As far as I understand it, the clause adds to the heat network system, which, as I have said, has evolved over the years into a number of heat networks in various parts of the country.

A good idea for future heat network development would be to have a much more systematic approach and an understanding of where our heat networks may be most appropriately sited and the best conditions for them to be established. We know a number of potential good and bad conditions for heat networks. For example, a certain density of population, buildings and so on is needed for heat networks to be efficient, although there are in existence small heat networks that serve very small communities. Indeed, heat networks can range from being marginally larger than a few properties to covering large parts of cities.

There are five major heat networks in my city of Southampton, one of which serves the whole city centre and surrounding areas, and has an 18 km heat delivery pipe network. It is connected to a geothermal scheme in the city centre, so it efficiently provides heat to that whole area. It is connected not just to domestic properties but to a number of commercial users, which I think includes the nation’s only geothermally heated supermarket, civic centre, health authority centre, and so on.

One component of a decent heat network is what is in the network to validate the load that is supplied. A heat network may be just for domestic properties, as is the case in some housing developments in Southampton, but that is not the most efficient way of developing a heat network because the load from domestic properties changes seasonally. If a heat network is connected both to a number of properties—an estate or whatever—but also has industrial or commercial users, the load can be spread out and equalised over the years.

The Southampton schemes operate quite efficiently within the right places for zones. Nevertheless, it is—or should be—a function of local circumstances that heat networks are more likely to be applied in constituencies where there is a considerable gathering of industrial and commercial activities and population zones, and are less applicable in large rural constituencies, although there are some heat networks in small towns and villages. Within that zone understanding, there may be arrangements that pertain to local circumstances: for example, zones may be organised in such a way that ensures the likelihood of success for the heat network is relatively high.

I understand that this section of the Bill seeks to ensure that local authorities are required to look at research, to consider where it would be good to have a heat network and to produce a heat network zone plan, so that as we develop heat networks for the future we have a much better picture of where the schemes would work well, where investment may best go and the extent to which success is likely to be high, rather than someone perhaps taking a flyer on something that probably will not work well for the future.

We are happy with the idea of heat network zones being put into the Bill, that we approach them in the way that I have described and that they complement the regulation of the system in as much as the whole system now is much more in the mainstream of energy planning and energy futures as a whole. I hope that our amendments are complementary to the general scheme of things. They simply try to align the regulation of the heat zone development process with that of heat zones themselves, proposing that the process of heat zone discovery and development should be regulated by the same regulator that regulates heat as a whole: the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority.

It is important that there should be a regulator for this particular activity so that it does not stand alone from everything else happening as far as heat networks are concerned. I do not think that would impede the development of heat networks—on the contrary, it would assist them by making sure that the way we were bringing forward heat zone arrangements was generally of assistance to heat networks as a whole.

What if a local authority or similar body involved with developing heat network zones were not interested in heat networks? It might locally regulate heat zones in a way that did not take seriously the whole question of heat network development. The regulation of heat zone arrangements under the circumstances that I am discussing would ensure that there was a pretty uniform approach as far as heat network development was concerned. Those engaged in it would know that someone was looking over their shoulder to make sure that they were doing the job properly. That is all we want to add to the measure and I think the Minister will agree that it is a pretty positive addition. It certainly does not detract in any way from the validity of the heat network process and the idea that there are right and wrong places for heat networks. We must get them in the right places so that they can succeed for customers as well as they possibly can.

I thank the hon. Member for his amendments, all of which are designed to ensure that the regulatory frameworks for heat networks and the building-up of capacity in this country for heat network zoning gets to a place that will support the growth of the industry in the future. I resist the amendments only because I feel that the powers in the Bill meet the required level of engagement and regulation necessary at this stage for what is currently a nascent but will in time become an incredibly important part of the wider energy mix.

I turn first to amendment 102, which relates to designating GEMA as the heat network zones authority. The zones authority will be a national body responsible for zoning functions that require national-level standardisation or are most efficiently or effectively carried out at a national level. This approach will allow for national standards and consistent rules to apply in the initial identification of a potential heat network zone.

As for who could fulfil the zones authority role, clause 181(3) is explicit that

“The Secretary of State may, but need not, be designated”

as the zones authority. Therefore, the clause, as drafted, already provides that regulations may appoint GEMA as the zones authority.

The zones authority will fulfil a different function from the heat network regulator, which we propose, as set out in clause 172, should be fulfilled by GEMA for Great Britain. That role will cover all heat networks, both within and outside heat network zones. We do not envisage a separate regulator for heat network zones in England.

We will specify the zones authority’s functions and responsibilities within the regulations when they are brought forward. That will be subject to further consultation in due course as we continue to develop our policy proposals, and we look forward to engaging with Parliament on that. Appointing the zones authority in regulations will allow for amendment, should that be required, as and when its functions change over time and as heat networks become more established throughout the United Kingdom. I hope that has helped to clarify our proposed approach and the scope of the powers already provided for in the Bill.

I turn to amendment 115, regarding the relationship between the Heat Network Zones Authority and the heat network regulator. As I have said, we intend for GEMA to fulfil the heat network regulator role in Great Britain. The zones authority will be a national body responsible for certain zoning functions. We will consult on who should fulfil the zones authority role in due course, but we do not consider that the zones authority should itself be subject to oversight by the heat network regulator. I hope this has helped to clarify our proposed approach regarding the zones authority and how its role relates to the heat network regulator, and I therefore ask the hon. Member for Southampton, Test to find it within himself to withdraw his amendment.

Once again, the bona fides of the Minister are not in any question at all, but what he is saying to us relies quite a lot on the regulations that will follow from the Bill and how the Secretary of State may designate under clause 181 a person to act as the Heat Network Zones Authority. If the Secretary of State decides that there should be a Heat Network Zones Authority, we are not sure exactly how that will come about. It may be that we do not have an authority as such, but the Department effectively operates as the authority, or a complete Heat Network Zones Authority could be set up with offices and civil servants or quasi-civil servants, although that might be a bit bureaucratically overbearing.

Again, the Bill does not specify how that authority, whatever it is, will be tucked into the system as a whole. The Minister says, “I’m sure it will be, because we are sensible people and we will make sure we do it,” but that has not been put on the face of the Bill, which is always good practice. Whatever our intentions may be today in this Committee—and they are good intentions—a piece of legislation has to stand in circumstances where those intentions may not be so good under a future Government. That is why we tabled our amendment, but I hear what the Minister has said, and that is on the record. Given my boundless trust in the Minister’s good intentions for the future, I hope that he will do what he has said regarding heat network zones authorities, and their regulation and operation. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clauses 181 and 182 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 183

Identification, designation and review of zones

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

With this it will be convenient to discuss clauses 184 and 185 stand part.

Clause 183 gives the Secretary of State the power to make regulations to establish the process for creating heat network zones, which we have just discussed. In the legislation that is referred to as identifying and designating a zone. The clause also gives the Secretary of State the power to make regulations to establish the process for the review of zone designations. A review of zones could lead to changes in the boundary—for example, making the zone larger or combining two existing zones.

Subsection (2) provides that the regulations must require the identification of zones to be done in accordance with the zoning methodology, which is established under clause 184. Subsection (3) outlines further matters that the regulations may specify in relation to the designation of areas as zones. Subsection (4) outlines what may be specified in regulations regarding changing or revoking zone designations. Subsection (5) outlines regulations that can be made about the review of zone designations.

Clause 184 gives the Secretary of State the power to establish a methodology for identifying heat network zones. The methodology will standardise the identification of zones nationally. Proposals for the use of, and approach to, that national methodology received widespread support from stakeholders during the Government consultation.

Clause 185 allows the Secretary of State to make regulations about the ability of the zones authority and zone co-ordinators to request the information required to support the national methodology for the identification, designation and review of heat network zones. The clause, and the regulations that follow, will facilitate the zones authority and zone co-ordinators in requesting and receiving the necessary information to ensure that heat network zones are situated in the right locations. As I discussed in the context of zone reviews under clause 183, the location of heat network zones can be changed as necessary to reflect the impact of changing technologies and neighbourhoods over time.

The Minister reflects that circumstances may change over time so it is necessary to have such a power. He is right that circumstances are not static; indeed, we may well miss a lot of good opportunities if we place too much emphasis on the static nature of what we have designated for the future. I think that we will debate, in a future clause, circumstances concerning the development of heat networks within zones, but on the changes that may be necessary in order to keep heat network zones up to date, this is a sensible provision that we support.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 183 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 184 and 185 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 186

Heat networks within zones

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

With this it will be convenient to discuss that clause 187 stand part.

Clause 186 allows the Secretary of State to make regulations about heat networks within heat network zones. That includes specifying which buildings may be required to connect to a district heat network within a designated zone. Subsections (2)(a) and (2)(b) allow regulations that specify the types of buildings within zones that will be required to connect to heat networks, when they must connect, and how they are notified of that requirement.

Subsection (2)(c) allows the regulations to specify when and how the zone co-ordinator can grant exemptions from the requirement to connect to the heat network. Subsections (2)(e) to (2)(h) allow regulations to make provision about requiring heat sources in zones to connect to a heat network. Subsections (2)(i) and (2)(j) allow regulations that provide for the zoning co-ordinator to set local limits on emissions from heat networks and any grace period to comply with that limit.

Subsection (5) allows regulations to specify when the zoning co-ordinator may or must ask a heat source to connect to a heat network, the types of heat source that can cover, and how the heat source owner can appeal against the requirement to connect. Subsection (6) allows regulations to specify how local limits on emissions from heat networks in zones are set. Subsection (7) provides details about what regulations can be made about grace periods for local emissions limits.

Clause 187 allows the Secretary of State to make regulations about the delivery of district heat networks within heat network zones. Those regulations will give structure to the zoning co-ordinator’s role and responsibilities. “Delivery” refers to the design, construction, operation and maintenance of heat networks. His Majesty’s Government recognise that there are several feasible models for delivering heat networks in zones depending on local circumstances, including the level of involvement of the zone co-ordinator. The clause, and the regulations that flow from it, aim to provide a flexible approach to zone delivery.

The engagement we have had with the heat network industry and with local government has highlighted a desire for flexibility in how heat networks are delivered within zones, as there are a range of ownership and delivery models that could be employed in the future. The Government’s expectation is that the regulations will define what decisions zoning co-ordinators and other bodies can take regarding zone delivery, with guidance from the zones authority to help inform their decisions. The clause provides that regulations may determine when zone co-ordinators may decide what heat networks are delivered in their zones, and by whom, including circumstances in which the zoning co-ordinator may deliver heat networks themselves.

The Government recognise that there is a risk that leaving decisions about zone development solely in the hands of zone co-ordinators could risk a heat network zone not being developed. Therefore, subsection 5(g) allows regulations to define the circumstances in which zone co-ordinators may lose the ability to make decisions about heat network delivery in zones. The intent is that that will happen if the zone co-ordinator has not taken certain steps to develop the zone following a set period after the zone designation.

Clause 186 rather reminds me of Bertrand Russell’s definitions of propositions that are automatically members of their own class and propositions that are not automatically members of their own class, but I do not think we will debate that to any great extent this morning.

No. We will avoid that at all costs.

It is an interesting debate in its own right.

Perhaps for some other time.

For no other time, probably. Clause 186 is a relevant and necessary proposition concerning the development of heat zones and heat zone authorities, but one thing that does rather concern me is that although it is important that heat networks are able to develop in the most appropriate way and under the most appropriate circumstances, it is also important that the connections between heat networks can develop in the most appropriate way within a particular area.

I mention that point because there are circumstances in which heat networks may develop independently in parts of cities. The geographical and other siting considerations could lead to the development of interconnections between heat networks so that their joint efficacy is improved. If an extensive heat network, such as the one in Southampton, has a number of independent networks relatively nearby that have developed under different circumstances but are providing the same thing, there is considerable advantage in ensuring that they are interconnected so that they can share heat production and, if necessary, heat network inputs.

As I am sure the Minister is aware, heat networks are agnostic as to the fuel that goes into them. It could be from a heat engine, a geothermal source or a low-carbon source—hopefully, we will develop those to a much greater extent—such as multiple ground source heat pumps or hydrogen engines, which are already in existence and can replace gas engines in heat networks.

I thank the hon. Member for his questions. He made mention, almost in passing, of heat network zones doing their own thing within zones. It is important to point out that in clause 186 there are several protections against heat network zones doing their own thing. Zones will inherently represent areas where heat networks are expected to provide the lowest-cost low-carbon heating solution. Customers will be able to apply for exemptions from the requirement to connect where it would be inappropriate. Ofgem’s consumer protection framework will provide protection for domestic consumers and microbusinesses, and we will consider consulting on whether protections should be extended to other consumer groups, such as larger non-domestic consumers, which are in scope of the requirement to connect to a heat network. I know that the hon. Member’s points were not specifically directed at that issue, but he mentioned zones being able to do their own thing, and it is important to ensure that consumer and business protections are built into the regulations.

We talked about hospitals, albeit in passing. We are not setting out specifically which buildings will be required to connect to a network, but we can require certain buildings in zones to connect to a heat network. Doing so encourages investment in the heat networks and accelerates the deployment of low-cost, low-carbon heat. The categories of buildings chosen to connect will strike a balance between this investment certainty and individual consumer choice. That will develop as the heat network market in England grows. We may need to refine these categories. This is a nascent industry in the early stages of its development, so describing them will provide that flexibility. The Government will consult later this year on which types of buildings can be required to connect and in what circumstances.

On the hon. Member’s substantive point about why the Bill does not make provision about heat network delivery in zones, we are providing that zone co-ordinators shall have powers to decide what heat networks are built in zones and by whom. There are many ways in which heat networks could be delivered in zones and many ways in which zone co-ordinators could exercise their decision-making powers around delivery. As set out in the green finance strategy, we envisage heat network zoning bringing forward a significant increase in private sector investment in heat networks in England. Decisions around delivery may have significant implications for the scale of heat networks built in a zone, the pace at which networks are built and the effect on consumers. The Government intend to consult later in the year on how a zone co-ordinator may take those decisions, so that we get it right. Again, I emphasise that we will be consulting on this later this year.

Also, the way in which decisions are made may need to change over time, reflecting how the market matures and, indeed, learning from experience. The regulations will, of course, be subject to the affirmative procedure, which will allow for parliamentary scrutiny. I am sure that the hon. Member will play his part in such scrutiny, as will his colleagues.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 186 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 187 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 188

Enforcement of heat network zone requirements

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

With this it will be convenient to discuss clause 189 stand part.

These are quite a simple couple of clauses. Clause 188 will allow the Secretary of State to make regulations about enforcing the requirements to apply within zones. It will support the previous two clauses on the delivery of heat networks in zones and the requirements placed on networks, buildings and heat sources within a zone. The clause includes the ability for the zoning co-ordinators to issue notices to people if they are suspected of not complying with the relevant requirements; to issue notices to outline what the person must do to satisfy the requirement; and to issue penalties to those who do not comply with the notices.

Clause 189 will allow the Secretary of State to make regulations about the penalties that apply for not complying with zone requirements under clauses 186 and 187 or for not complying with an information request under clause 185. That includes regulations about the maximum penalty amounts, the process for issuing a penalty, grounds for appeal, recovery of penalties, and to whom the penalties are paid.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 188 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 189 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 190

Records, information and reporting

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

This is another simple clause. The Government consider that various types of data will be essential for the identification and designation of areas as heat network zones and for the development of heat networks within them. Clause 190 will allow the Secretary of State to make regulations about zone co-ordinators and the zones authority collecting, storing, and sharing information about zones, including information relevant to identifying areas that would be suitable for the construction and operation of one or more district heat networks, as well as areas designated as heat networks under clause 185. It also includes information requests made to owners of thermal heat sources under clause 186. Information gathered by the zone co-ordinators and the authority, when carrying out activities related to the wider heat network regulations, would also be in scope of these regulations, as would information gathered in relation to the zoning methodology, including its review and update.

There are two circumstances in which information may be shared. First, a zone co-ordinator may be able to share zoning information with other zone co-ordinators, the zones authority and the regulator. Secondly, the zones authority may be able to share zoning information with zone co-ordinators and the regulator.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 190 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 191

Interpretation of Chapter 2

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Clause 191 is the final clause in chapter 2, which concludes part 7 and the clauses on heat networks. The clause covers definitions for the heat network zoning clauses.

I have nothing to add, other than “Hooray, we’ve got to the end of that part!” We now have lots of regulations in place, which is a good thing.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 191 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 192

Energy smart appliances and load control

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Clause 192 introduces part 8 of the Bill, which relates to energy smart appliances and load control. It defines the key concepts relating to that part, namely energy smart appliances, energy smart function, load control signals and load control.

The smart energy market is in its early stages but is growing rapidly, as we discussed in detail on Thursday. As the take-up of electric vehicles and other devices such as heat pumps increases, we need to remain agile in responding to new developments in the market. This is to ensure that we maintain grid stability and protect consumers from cyber-security risks. Transitioning to a smart and fully flexible electricity system will play a vital role in decarbonising the power system by 2035. Such a transition could reduce costs by up to £10 billion a year by 2050.

I will briefly set out some key definitions. Energy smart appliances are electrical consumer devices that are communications-enabled and capable of responding automatically to signals such as energy price changes. In response to such signals, they can adjust their electricity consumption or production in line with consumer choice and cost preferences. Load control refers to the act of sending and receiving those signals and adjusting the consumption of the product in response.

Subsequent clauses in part 8 will limit powers to make regulations to products with functions such as refrigeration, cleaning, battery storage, electrical heating, and air conditioning or ventilation.

We have now moved smoothly and efficiently to the question of energy smart appliances and load control; I will have something to say about load control later. The arrangements for energy smart appliances are important, given the increasing range of activities that appliances can now undertake. The specified purposes set out in clause 193—refrigeration; “cleaning tableware”, or dishwashing; “washing or drying textiles”, or using washing machines; and energy storage—are all circumstances in which things can be added to devices to allow them to operate independently, to operate at particular times and to respond to dynamic demand requests. For example, a chip can be put in a refrigerator to allow the appliance to respond to signals from outside saying, “Switch yourself off between 3 am and 4 am,” which will save some power or regulate the power in a better way.

Appliances increasingly have the potential to operate as mini-computers in their own right: they have IP addresses and various other things. It is possible to capture a series of washing machines that are smart-enabled and use them as locks under certain circumstances. Indeed, I think there was a recent prosecution of some young men who had done just that; I am not quite sure for what purpose, but they secured a number of smart devices in order to operate them in concert. It is important that we have energy smart regulations that enable us to deal with such circumstances and get them in hand. Of course, this is potentially a subset of the debate about AI and the extent to which our devices in the home may be subject to the control of other authorities entirely.

From the customer’s point of view, it is important that they know that they are in control of their own devices. Smart appliances offer various exciting advantages such as allowing people to change central heating controls before they get home, by pressing a button when they are 50 miles away, but the principle behind the security arrangements should be that the customer—the person in the home—is the eventual arbiter of how those things work. Does the Minister think that the way the clause is drafted will ensure that the customer—the person who is operating those smart systems, or who thinks they are—actually has eventual control, and particularly the consent for the operation of those smart devices in the way that we have described?

I realise that this is an introductory clause and the Minister was doing some scene setting. The clause mentions load control signals and digital communications. I draw the Minister’s attention to my written parliamentary question No. 186867, submitted following a meeting I had with representatives of the Energy Networks Association. They tell me that to take forward a proper smart grid, the energy network companies need additional radio spectrum access. The Government need not just to put in place regulations, but to facilitate that radio spectrum access.

In response to my question, the Minister for Energy Security and Net Zero, the right hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart), said that the Government are moving forward on the issue with a study and a calculation of costs. I know that the Under-Secretary cannot write a blank cheque, but the reality is that radio spectrum access will be needed. I just put that on his radar.

I thank hon. Members for their questions and points. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun is right that this is just an introductory clause; we will talk about the regulations in much more detail during the rest of the morning and this afternoon. I thank him for putting that point about radio spectrum access on my radar.

The smart energy market is at an early stage. That is why we are regulating. We need to ensure that consumers and businesses, and indeed the grid and access to it, are protected. We intend to regulate in close consultation with industry and in a way that allows the market to evolve and supports innovation.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 192 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 193

Energy smart regulations

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

With this it will be convenient to discuss clauses 194 to 198 stand part.

Clauses 193 to 198 establish the regulatory regime for energy smart appliances.

Clause 193 provides powers to introduce energy smart regulations in Great Britain. The regulations will mandate that energy smart appliances with specific purposes must comply with a set of requirements. The appliances that will need to comply with the requirements include those with specific purposes, such as electric vehicle charge points, or devices that are used in connection with the following specific purposes: refrigeration; cleaning battery storage; electric heating or ventilation, and air conditioning or ventilation.

Subsection (3) sets out a number of factors that the Secretary of State must have particular regard to when making regulations. Those include, for example, ensuring that the energy smart function does not undermine the delivery of a consistent and stable supply of electricity. Where an energy smart appliance does not meet the requirements set by the regulations, its placing on the market may be prohibited.

Clause 194 builds on clause 193, setting out that energy smart regulations may refer to technical standards and published documents. Energy smart regulations may also refer to requirements imposed under Acts of the Scottish Parliament. The clause establishes that prohibitions imposed by energy smart regulations may extend to load control for appliances that are not compliant with the regulations, and to any appliances modified in a way that would make them non-compliant with the regulations.

Energy smart regulations may prohibit the placing on the market of appliances that do not comply with the requirements of the regulations. The regulations may also prohibit the placing on the market of non-smart electric heating appliances and electric vehicle charge points. Finally, the clause specifies that energy smart regulations do not provide for enforcement action of any kind against the end user of an energy smart appliance.

Clause 195 makes provision for the enforcement of the requirements of energy smart regulations. The clause allows the Secretary of State to designate enforcement authorities that will ensure compliance with the requirements or prohibitions made under the regulations.

Before the Minister goes on too far, what timescale does he anticipate for the introduction of regulations under clauses 193 and 194 to mandate smart appliances?

I am not able to give any firm dates right now, but the Government’s hope is that we will move quickly to consultation on the regulations as soon as the Bill receives Royal Assent.

Relevant economic actors will be required to monitor and report on their compliance with the terms of the regulations, as well as to take specified steps to remedy any non-compliance. Clause 195(2) includes provision for a range of investigatory powers to track and assess non-compliance for use by enforcement authorities. Those include powers of entry, inspection, search and seizure, and powers to enable the testing of energy smart appliances by enforcement authorities. Finally, the Secretary of State may make payments or provide resources to the enforcement authority for the purpose of enforcing the energy smart regulations.

Clause 196 establishes that energy smart regulations may impose a range of sanctions for non-compliance. A full list of offences will be set out in the final regulations, on which the Government will consult publicly and which will be subject to debate in both Houses. I hope that answers the question from the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun. The clause sets out several offences, including contravening requirements imposed by enforcement authorities or knowingly providing false information to enforcement authorities. Punishments for such offences will be provided for in regulations. The punishments will not include imprisonment. Regulations may also allow enforcement authorities to recover their costs by means of civil fines.

Clause 197 makes provision for the regulations to include a right of appeal to a court or tribunal against a requirement or civil penalty made by an enforcement authority. The right of appeal to a court or tribunal against a requirement or penalty for non-compliance, as set out in energy smart regulations, can include, but is not limited to, provisions set out in subsection (2). The right of appeal can be extended by the regulations beyond those parties against whom the requirement has been imposed. The Secretary of State may revoke or amend subordinate legislation, including an Act of the Scottish Parliament or the Senedd, where they consider it appropriate for the purpose of any provision falling within subsection (2).

Clause 198 sets out the procedure by which energy smart regulations will be made. The clause begins by setting out that energy smart regulations made under clause 193 may provide for exemptions or exceptions in their coverage. It requires the Secretary of State to consult before making regulations that subject a specific type of energy smart appliance to regulations or that amend the list of relevant purposes in clause 193. It also sets out the cases in which the affirmative scrutiny procedure is to be used when making regulations under clause 193. I commend the clauses to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 193 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 194 to 198 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 199

Power to amend licence conditions etc: load control

I beg to move amendment 160, in clause 199, page 170, line 3, at end insert—

“(f) regulate or prohibit the provision of load control in relation to appliances that are provided by high risk vendors.”

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 161, in clause 199, page 170, line 21, after “section” insert

“‘high risk vendors’ means vendors of appliances that pose potential or actual security and resilience risks to energy networks,”.

Clause stand part.

Clauses 200 to 203 stand part.

That schedule 17 be the Seventeenth schedule to the Bill.

New clause 40—Designated load controller—

“(1) The Secretary of State may give a designated load controller direction only if the Secretary of State considers that—

(a) the direction is necessary in the interests of national security; and

(b) the requirement imposed by the direction are proportionate to what is sought to be achieved by the direction.”

This new clause ensures that load controllers undergo national security checks to establish the nature of connections to potentially hostile actors and the threats they may pose.

We now come to the section of the Bill concerning licensing of load control. Load control is very much associated with the previous debate, inasmuch as it relates to how energy smart appliances operate overall, and such appliances will often operate under the aegis of a load controller—a body or person who is responsible for the network within which they work. It is important that we regulate and license not only the appliance but the bodies and people that control the load arrangements that smart appliances potentially give rise to.

On a point of order, Mr Gray. I apologise to the hon. Member for Southampton, Test, but I want to make this point of order before the sitting concludes. We will shortly move on to discuss energy performance certificates and insulation of privately rented properties. In the past, I have been advised that I did not have to register the fact that my wife has a rental property and that her family have rental properties, but I seek your advice, Mr Gray, for the next sitting: will I have to make some sort of declaration before I comment on those areas of the Bill? I wanted to get that in now, so that a ruling can be made for this afternoon.

If the interests are declared in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and the right hon. Gentleman believes that they are relevant to the debate, it would be prudent for him to call the Committee’s attention to the register. That is not enforced entirely, but the question is whether there might be a perception of bias. Therefore, if the Member has interests that he believes might be of importance, it is probably worth his calling them to the attention of the Committee before he speaks.

Dr Whitehead, will you be concluding in the next 20 seconds?

I will not be that brief.

In that case we will adjourn, it being as close to 11.25 am as it can possibly be.

Good afternoon, everyone. I need to call the Government Whip to move a motion to amend the Programme Order agreed this morning. The purpose of the motion is to enable us to hear from the witnesses who were unable to give evidence earlier today.

Ordered,

That the Order of the Committee of 13 June 2023 be varied by the insertion of the following words at the end of the Table in paragraph 2—

—(Mike Wood.)

The Committee deliberated in private.

Examination of Witnesses

Professor Jason Furman, Professor Amelia Fletcher CBE and Professor Philip Marsden gave evidence.

Good afternoon, everyone. Could each of the witnesses introduce themselves, please? One witness is in the room and two are joining us virtually.

Professor Fletcher: I am Amelia Fletcher, Professor of Competition Policy at the University of East Anglia. I should mention that I am also a non-executive director of the Competition and Markets Authority; I know you heard from our chief executive officer this morning. I am very much here, I believe, with my academic hat on and because of my role on what has become known as the Furman review, which kicked all this off.

Professor Furman: I am Jason Furman, Professor of Economic Policy at Harvard University; I am jointly at the Harvard Kennedy School and in the economics department. I was chair of the expert panel on digital competition, and I am thrilled to be with you—this morning for me, and this afternoon for you.

Professor Marsden: I am Philip Marsden, Professor of Law and Economics at the College of Europe in Bruges. I am deputy chair for enforcement at the Bank of England. I was a member of the panel here and was formerly inquiry chair at the Competition and Markets Authority.

Thank you all very much for joining us. I call shadow Minister Alex Davies-Jones to kick off with questions.

Q30 Good afternoon professors and thank you for joining us today. We have had a lot of chatter about whether the Bill will help or hinder the growth of innovation in the UK’s digital market. What are your opinions about that and do you feel that the Bill goes far enough?

Professor Marsden: In the branch of legislation being considered internationally in this area, this is the only Bill with a pro-innovation approach written into it. That was our original intention in the Furman review—not to sacrifice any innovation by large tech platforms, but simply to unlock the opportunities for innovation from smaller, more diverse firms so that there were more ideas and more flow. I do not see any correct arguments at all that this will hinder innovation; if anything, it will do the opposite.

Q Professor Fletcher?

Professor Fletcher: I fully endorse that. When we did the review, we spoke to a lot of firms that were seeking to innovate in the digital space but were struggling. We heard that they really needed access to a whole number of things such as data. They needed access to customers and to be interoperable with systems out there. They needed access to finance. They found, essentially—some of them, at least—that the way in which the biggest platforms were working was making all that very difficult. They were concerned that although there had been a huge amount of innovation, at that point—and still, I think—firms’ ability to innovate was being gradually increasingly stymied by the conduct of the biggest tech platforms. We very much saw the Bill as a pro-innovation piece of regulation.

Professor Furman: This question is so fundamental. This legislation would have benefits for consumers in terms of price and choice, but far and away the most important benefit would be innovation. It was designed with that in mind; our recommendations, which the legislation took on, established firms with strategic market status. They would fall under these rules, which would give a lot of leeway to small and medium-sized UK businesses to really innovate and come up with their own models rather than being constrained. More competition would help innovation by the large platforms as well.

The other thing that is so important is that the speed in the digital sector is just so much faster than in other parts of the economy, so traditional anti-trust rules just take too long: by the time a case is settled or decided, everyone has moved on. Getting there at the front end and having something that is much more flexible and faster is critical in this sector.

Q Thank you very much for your answers. Amazon has recently said the complete opposite of what you are saying. It has said that the Bill will stop it from innovating. It has started these new stores where you can go and shop and there are no staff—people just go in, take the stuff off the shelf and walk out. Amazon says that this Bill would have stopped it from taking forward that kind of innovation. What particular areas in the Bill is Amazon referring to? Do you recognise those as valid concerns?

Professor Fletcher: Amazon would have to be more precise about what it thought in the Bill would stop that. I think the Bill has trod a very careful, innovation- focused line between stopping the biggest tech platforms from inhibiting innovation by third parties and facilitating them to innovate themselves. The Bill is designed to only address the very biggest platforms in the first place, but also only to address the elements of their business where they have very strong market positions and entrenched market power. I think that way is the right way. As far as I know, Amazon would not be inhibited by the Bill from setting up those stores.

Q There is a forward-looking provision, is there not, for the CMA to look five years into the future and decide whether a company will have entrenched market power then? Is that what Amazon is referring to? Is that their concern, and would that be valid?

Professor Fletcher: I think the concern is to ensure that it is entrenched market power that we are addressing. The CMA recognises, as do we, that these are intrusive measures and you do not want to do them unless you are trying to address entrenched market power.

Professor Marsden: Personally, I agree that there is an aspect where the five-year period, which I find a bit too long, can be gamed by some of the potentially SMS—strategic market status—firms, but I understand why it is in there. I probably would have been more comfortable with a two or three-year period, because that is traditional for competition authorities and as far as they can look ahead in terms of crystal ball gazing. But I understand why it is there.

Q How would they game the system, Professor Marsden? What do you mean by that?

Professor Marsden: They could game the system in the sense of one thing being done by just slowly walking backwards, for example—“We are introducing so many innovations and having so many thoughts and thanks from various small businesses.” They could drown the CMA with a range of evidence that actually does not go to the point, which is: who is being excluded, who is being locked out and what are we as consumers and citizens missing by relying only on three or four types of seed in the environment, as opposed to a whole globe of seeds? That is the metaphor I would like to use.

Professor Fletcher: It is worth highlighting that if you compare the UK regulation with the equivalent in the EU, the EU has taken a less bespoke, less evidence-based approach. It basically gets a quantitative presumption, and that presumption is going to be relatively hard to shake. What we have done is much more evidence-based, bespoke and proportionate. Whenever you do that, it makes it slightly less administrable and slightly harder to actually make stick.

Again, I think a very delicate balance has been trodden, and it is the right balance. I think all of us would agree on that, and on the fact that Brussels has made it easier for itself, but it is arguably then not proportionate nor sufficiently bespoke. It is a very delicate thing, but I think it is in the right place.

Q Professor Furman, I saw your hand up. Do you have any comments?

Professor Furman: Look at the tools that the Digital Markets Unit would have under these provisions; the conduct requirements, such as fair dealing and open choices, are not brand new inventions. They largely draw on existing roles under anti-trust measures. It is just that they would be more explicit and clearer up front, and enforced more quickly. To some degree, at least in terms of the conduct requirements, this is not about imposing some brand new set of rules; a lot of it is about taking existing things and ensuring that they can be enforced in a clear and transparent manner.

I call shadow Minister Seema Malhotra.

Q Thank you very much for coming today. I want to pick up on the argument that the legislation will enhance innovation. In your excellent report, which underpins much of our work, you mention hearing from businesses that were finding it hard to innovate.

Some conversations that we have had have been more explicit about the increased costs of innovation, and the difficulties when there is no interoperability or access, and increased costs being passed on to customers. Is that consistent with your experience, and what are the likely economic benefits to businesses and consumers of this legislation? I will take Professor Fletcher first, and then we will come back to Professor Furman and Professor Marsden.

Professor Fletcher: That was exactly our experience. We heard about the importance of interoperability with systems, and access to data and consumers, and how all those things were not always effective. Some innovation was fostered by big tech and some was less fostered by it, but the point is that they were in control of what happened in a way that we felt was not right for a proper, innovative environment, and certainly not right if you want to see real, disruptive innovation coming through—and I think that is what we do want to see.

We also thought that interoperability, data portability and data access were all pretty intrusive interventions. Therefore—unlike what has been done in the EU, where they have particular rules that require interoperability and require data portability on a fairly widespread basis—we instead thought that that should not be part of the core code of conduct, and that the aim could be achieved via pro-competitive interventions that were evidenced, bespoke and really well targeted. Again, that has been taken through into the Bill’s design, and shows that it is targeted at the barriers to innovation that we identified.

Q Professor Furman, I would be interested to know whether you think the Bill strikes the right balance. Does it give the CMA too much power? Does it put the right amount of power in the new digital markets regime?

Professor Furman: The short answer is yes, I think it gets it right. It strikes what my colleagues have described—and I agree—as a delicate balance. It depends on who is the head of the DMU and who is the head of the CMA.

In general, my experience with the regulators in the UK is that they are very thoughtful in understanding the importance of markets, competition and taking evidence seriously. The legislation gives them a certain amount of discretion. As my colleagues have testified, that is unavoidable; in a market and an environment where things are changing very rapidly, it would be very difficult to try to write into the legislation every single detail. This sets the standard for what the world should do. Frankly, part of the reason I agreed to do this project is that I would love to see the United States following legislation like this. I hope the UK serves as a model for the world in this regard, and I think it is doing so.

On innovation, I agree with Amelia that what we heard from businesses and reviewed in the academic research is that it is not just a question of how much innovation, but what type of innovation. Are you trying to innovate so you can be acquired by Google or are you trying to become the next Google? There is one thing that motivated us. It is very hard to see the future of this space, but four years ago we thought the next big thing would involve artificial intelligence and machine learning. Unlike the past waves of innovation—where IBM was dominant, and then it became about PCs so it was Microsoft, and then it was about the internet so it became Google, and we saw one wave after the next displacing the previous—we were very worried that because artificial intelligence required large amounts of data, it would not necessarily lend itself to a new upstart competitor, but would instead entrench the power of the existing ones. So far, what we are seeing with OpenAI and the role that Microsoft plays in it, and with what Google is doing in this space, is that it is largely playing out along the lines that we were concerned about. That is partly motivating us looking forward.

Q Thanks for those responses. Professor Marsden, how much we will need some global leadership to ensure this legislation has the impact it needs to have? Some of these issues and the companies’ operations do not stop at borders. To what extent are there tools in the legislation and more widely for the CMA to operate with sister regulators abroad?

Professor Marsden: Let me take your first point with respect to evidence related to economic benefits. We had a natural experiment before this, called open banking. You will have heard things about this before. No matter what hopes or disappointments people had about open banking, we seemingly had the power at the time to investigate a market that had competitive problems but no anti-trust violations, so there was nothing we could address with anti-trust law. We identified certain competitive structure problems, and there was an expectation on us perhaps to break up the banks, and we hear that with respect to some platforms.

That power is there in the Bill, but with the Furman review and this Bill, which has been kindly carried forward by the excellent civil servants, our emphasis is on the idea of opening up these markets with the same kinds of ex ante obligations on the larger platforms that we imposed on the big banks. Did we break up the banks? No. Did we see massive amounts of switching from one bank to another? No, but we have evidence that British people switch their spouse more frequently than they switch their bank.

What we want is more engagement. We want customers, users and small businesses to be engaged with their platform—with their bank—and that is what we will be seeing. We saw new offers coming in without the extensive capital requirements to bring in a full new entry, but there were new services offers in real intermediation and disintermediation of various products. If anything, open banking allowed consumers and users to—I hate this term—have affairs. It allowed them to check out where they could get the best mortgage, the best loan and those kind of things. That disciplines the incumbents, especially HSBC and Barclays, to provide competitive offers themselves. That is an example, to me at least, about how a pro-competitive, ex ante set of rules on very large platforms with a lot of data can help diversify the economy without harming the platforms. If anything, it puts a little bit of heat under them. I think that was a good achievement, whatever people think politically about it. It was supposed to be a balanced, gradual attempt to try to fix a market that had competitive structure problems, and I believe that is what the Bill does here.

In terms of global leadership, the UK is definitely still leading, despite a bit of a delay. It is the most bespoke, nuanced and balanced bit of legislation that has been proposed so far that I have seen, as we have already discussed this afternoon. At the same time—I completely understand your jurisdictional point—there is a real zeitgeist politically around the world to introduce measures like these of some sort. Of course, they depend on the economic, political and legal backgrounds of the society, but I cannot imagine like-minded authorities and Governments not trying to work hard or co-operate in this space.

We are seeing some examples of that already in the digital space. It is not really an area where there is a competition of competition laws; it is more that this is a regulated solution that we are putting forward in various jurisdictions through a democratic process. It does not depend too much on the discretion of the authority. It depends on the process that the authority undergoes to understand the markets and to then work with the tech platforms to find out which remedies would be available. That participative nature is a very important part of this, rather than an adversarial nature where we just chase after the companies after they have done something that is alleged to be wrong.

Professor Fletcher and Professor Furman, do you want to add anything?

Professor Fletcher: A lot of jurisdictions around the world are looking at this space. We talked earlier about how some of what we will achieve through this is stuff that can be achieved through competition law, and almost all jurisdictions have competition law. In a way, the more jurisdictions that have regulation, the easier it becomes for other jurisdictions to achieve some of the same things through competition law, because it changes the costs and benefits for the firms to change their business model.

The firms have quite an interesting decision to make on a global basis anyway about how much they do the same thing globally as they are required to do locally. I think it will vary depending on what thing it is. If it is terms and conditions, they can easily change that on a local basis. If it is interoperability, it is quite hard or rather more hard to design a system so that it has different interoperability standards in different places. We may well see an extraterritorial effect—not a deliberate one—because of the cost considerations and reputational considerations of the firms themselves. That will have a positive benefit in terms of providing a more consistent framework globally for the third parties that we are hoping to innovate. The more consistent global framework they have to compete upon, the better it is for innovation.

Professor Furman: The ideal thing would be if the whole world sat down and agreed how it was going to approach this problem and there was a single global system, or lots of countries co-ordinated and did the same thing. In practice, that is impossible, so what one should aspire towards is having essentially correlated actions in different countries, where different countries have similar rules and are looking at each other and learning from each other.

This puts the UK in a position to be a leader in that global process, and that, frankly, is the way mergers work already. It is not like there is a single global merger authority; there are merger authorities in economies around the world, but they use similar rules, are looking at similar evidence, come up with similar decisions and all, to some degree, talk to each other. That is what this is—an emerging correlation of approach.

We have seen in the United States in both the House of Representatives and the Senate legislation being put forward and in some cases being passed out of Committee that would accomplish some of the different pieces of what this legislation would do, frankly, more comprehensively than anything I have seen in the United States.

Q Thank you for coming before us. You are right: you cannot have a monopoly of monopolies commission. That would be wrong, but if we can have more regulatory certainty across the globe, that is good. There are three areas that I can see the different interests pushing on. There is the appeals system, whether it is judicial review or a full merits review, the final offer mechanism and the countervailing benefits exemption. On appeals, do you think judicial review is sufficient, proportionate and fast enough? That is what we are trying to do here—is it fair and fast to get that remediation? It would be interesting to hear your comments.

Professor Fletcher: I know this is something that Philip cares a great deal about. I will come in first and then let him have a go. We have talked about it being a delicate balance. I discussed the EU regulation, where they have gone very far towards ensuring administrability and enforceability by having the rules set out in the legislation with quantitative thresholds. That is how they have dealt with the need for administrability and enforceability.

We have tried to be more bespoke, as I have said, and more evidence based, but there is a real risk in terms of administrability and enforceability that we end up in the same place as we have been with competition law, whereby the cases get hugely burdensome and hard to bring to a conclusion within a sensible timescale, and there are insufficient agency resources really to do everything that is needed.

I think there is a real risk that if you play around with what might seem like tiny changes to the legislation, that could really threaten the administrability and enforceability of it, and we could lose the benefits of it over competition law and put us in a bad place relative to the EU—whereas at the moment I think we could show ourselves to be better in terms of getting the right balance by being more bespoke and evidence based. The appeals standard goes to that point. I strongly support the JR appeals standard because if we went for a full merit standard, it would be too far and would become inadministrable. I am sure the CMA would find a way to try to administer it, but I do not think it would be the right balance. I feel the same way about the customer benefits exception.

Professor Marsden or Professor Furman, do you have any views on that? Professor Marsden, your screen has frozen. Professor Furman?

Professor Furman: That is unfortunate because everything I know about this topic has come from him. [Laughter.] I do not have anything to add.

Okay. Thank you.

Q Professor Fletcher, imagine I am a growing business: I am successful, I have an online presence, I am doing lots of great stuff and I am a challenger to the global big businesses. What does the Bill mean to me? What difference will it make?

Professor Fletcher: It would make quite a lot of difference, but quite small differences. It would depend on the business that you were in. You might be an app developer. First of all, at the moment we have categories of rules rather than specific rules, so I cannot say exactly what it would do. For example, it could give you fairer access to app stores. If you were a seller through Amazon, which we were talking about earlier, it could give you fairer access to your own data on your own sales. I could probably talk for a long time about all the things that it could do, but I will highlight that you are, in that role, exactly who the law is targeted at helping.

Thank you. I notice that we have lost one of our witnesses, so I will go to Professor Marsden—I mean Professor Furman. My apologies; I forget my own name sometimes!

Professor Furman: Fair dealing, open choices, and trust and transparency are three of the main conduct requirements. They are all designed to make sure you could not have a search engine hiding searches from your business, and that you could not have them preferencing themselves and directing to themselves instead of to you. You might benefit from some of the interoperability and data access by being given access to the data or access to a system that you could operate on, which right now one of your bigger competitors is doing, so I think it is preventing harmful and unfair things being done to you, but also affirmatively opening up some options. By the way, all that is good not just for innovation but for the consumer, because it will make things easier and more streamlined for them.

Q Excellent. If I may follow up and spin that question on its head, Professor Marsden—hopefully I have the right person. I was asking before about what difference the Bill will make to a small business or growing business, but what will it mean for big businesses—the global giants—especially those that work in the online space? What will it make them better at doing? What will it stop them doing that might be harmful to competition at the moment?

Professor Marsden: I will deal with that first, then I can go back to the appeal point, if you would like my views.

The Bill will make those big platforms compete, basically for the first time. You will hear a lot of guff about how they are in some sort of monogopoly competition with each other all the time, and some of that might be true, but they are not really—they really are not. We see that in the competitive structure of the market, in the profits and in the concentration levels and so on. We are not trying to reduce profits or anything like that; we are trying to allow others to have a chance. If anything, like with open banking, that will light a fire underneath some of the big platforms, which are telling you they are innovative, and they are, but they are usually innovative in a way that makes us more dependent on them. We are not that fond of dependence in such markets; we are fond of diversity, choices and allowing competition on the merits—for products to rise and fall based on their merits, rather than on whether they have satisfied the terms and conditions of a particular platform.

On appeal, briefly—I am sorry for cutting out; Zoom might not be a platform of strategic market status—I have heard many advisers to tech platforms that might be subject to the Bill argue that the appeal issue is not just a small thing in the legislation, but absolutely fundamental. I agree with them on two things: first, the Bill itself and the ex ante approach that we have been discussing are absolutely fundamental—that is the big change. Secondly, the change with respect to ex post enforcement—the review of the conduct requirements, the investigations, anything imposed on the platforms and so on—to me involves such an involved, open and participative process between the platform, the digital markets unit and other entities that it gives me a lot of comfort about due process. If anything, if there were a full appeal standard, we might as well move to a prosecutorial approach, where the DMU is a prosecutor and everything is adversarial, and takes 18 years in court.

That is kind of what we have now so, if anything, this is an opportunity really to understand the business models, to put in bespoke requirements, to test ably the remedies—that is an important aspect—and to release remedies if they are not working or if they need to be tightened up. That therefore shows internationally what the UK thinks about such practices, which might help with the global spread that Amelia was mentioning. However, I have to state firmly that I believe that judicial review takes a lot longer than a substantive appeal, and I think that if the Bill were amended to allow a substantive appeal or even a few years of substantive appeal, we might as well have not done the study at all and might as well not pass the Bill in respect of the digital prior arrangements, because it will just return us to what we have seen before, basically.

In contrast, the European Commission is allowing substantive appeal rights. If anything, I think that means that they will code for prohibitions. As Amelia said, the law is not as bespoke, so we are going to see: “Here’s your general obligation. I don’t think you are satisfying it.” Then there will be an appeal to the Court and a wait of 18 years for Luxembourg to make a ruling. Here, those issues we hope will be dealt with at the administrative stage, and whether the authority of the DMU or the process itself was fair and reasonable is something that the courts should obviously review. We welcome that scrutiny. In fact, if I were involved in any of this, I would very much welcome that kind of scrutiny at the judicial review level, which is itself a very intense form of review, so it feels perfect to have this JR standard, but I appreciate that you will have already heard a lot against that and will in future.

Thank you, professor. I have a follow-up from the Minister.

No, that is fine.

Okay. In that case, I will bring in Jerome Mayhew.

Q I understand the evidence that you have given about the need under clause 194 to have a JR approach to the appeal process. What that does, however, is underline the power that the CMA has. Professor Furman, you mentioned earlier in evidence that it really matters who the leader of the CMA is. The area that I want you to comment on is whether you think that, under this process, there is sufficient political accountability for the decisions of the CMA. Such organisations are big, with the potential to have a huge impact on the economy of this country. Inevitably, they are deeply politically sensitive—or it is foreseeable that they will be—so are we not in danger of passing the buck too much to an arm’s length organisation like the CMA? Perhaps we should recognise that the decisions are inevitably political and that we therefore need a greater sense of political accountability. Professor Furman, could you start off on that?

Professor Furman: Political accountability is very much the broad approach. It is important that you have a body that approaches this transparently and predictably. I have a lot of respect for the role that you all play in the political system. You think that you should set the goals for consumer choice, innovation and so on, but it is important that what ultimately gets done is done in a much more judicial, regulatory way so that it is predictable for all the parties involved and does not change dramatically over time. In that, there is obviously the appeals process that was just discussed. That is not a political appeals process; it would be within the legal system.

I confess that I am not familiar with exactly how things would work in the UK. In the United States, Congress would have the head of the Federal Trade Commission, or whatever body was charged with this, up to testify. Generally, Congress would not ask, “Why did you bring that case yesterday?” but “Why aren’t you being more aggressive?” or “Why aren’t you being less aggressive?” They would try to oversee things at a strategic level, while leaving each case, decision and regulation to the regulator. Something like that system—I do not know exactly how you would do it in the UK—would be ideal.

Q Professor Fletcher, you are nodding. Would you like to expand on that?

Professor Fletcher: I fully agree. I can see why there is concern about discretion, but the CMA has shown that it takes its responsibilities seriously. It also understands that it is answerable to the Government of the day on a strategic level, rather than on individual cases.

To follow what Philip said, JR is not a walk in the park. It is a pretty serious test, which the CMA has faced occasionally in the past. It is a very serious expectation on the CMA. I support the view that if you want investment and open and competitive markets, you must have a transparent, consistent framework, which has lots of legal certainty. I worry that too much political intervention risks undermining that.

Thank you. We have time for one more question, so I call Andy Carter.

Q Professor Fletcher, picking up on something that you mentioned earlier, I want to look at innovation and investment. You said that we are leading the world in the some of the work that we are doing. Can you quantify how that work will benefit UK plc? I am conscious that that is a big question, but has any work been done on our approach and the benefits to our economy that we might see?

Professor Fletcher: I have to confess that I am not aware of work that has specifically been done on that. It is worth seeing this as a global thing, and we are trying to play our part in creating a global environment that will foster global innovation. I think that by doing it here, we will set rules that foster much of that innovation and encourage it to come here. There will be people who have made estimates; my hunch is that most of them will be pretty back-of-the-envelope, but I confess that I have not seen them.

Thank you very much. That brings the allotted time for this witness panel to an end. On behalf of the Committee, I thank you all very much for giving us your time.

Examination of Witnesses

Noyona Chundur, Peter Eisenegger and Tracey Reilly gave evidence.

We will now hear from our next panel of witnesses. We have Noyona Chundur, chief executive of the Consumer Council; Peter Eisenegger, board member, National Consumer Federation; and, via Zoom, Tracey Reilly, head of policy and markets, Consumer Scotland. May I ask you to introduce yourselves for the record?

Noyona Chundur: I am the chief executive of the Consumer Council.

Peter Eisenegger: I am the director of the National Consumer Federation with responsibility for the digital perspective in the consumer world. From the nature of our response, you will see that we have also commented a lot on the standards world, so I think it is appropriate that I indicate my background there: I have participated in digital standardisation in the UK through the British Standards Institution, in Europe through CEN and CENELEC, and internationally through the International Organisation for Standardisation. We do our best to represent the consumer voice in those arenas.

Tracey Reilly: I am head of policy and markets at Consumer Scotland.

Thank you. I invite shadow Minister Seema Malhotra to start the questions.

Q Thank you for coming to give evidence. Perhaps I could start with you, Ms Chundur, and then others may wish to come in. Do you think that this Bill will adequately address consumer detriment in digital markets? Are there areas where the legislation could go further?

Noyona Chundur: Thank you for the great question. Perhaps I can start with a little bit of context. We believe that confident consumers will drive competitive markets. There is a lot that the Bill does really well. It is great progress, and I commend the work of colleagues in the Department, as well as partners in the CMA and Tracey from Consumer Scotland for their input in getting us to this point. There are eight areas that could be strengthened or clarified. There is building consumer confidence. There is the potential risk of only the CMA having direct enforcement powers. It is around the supervision of enforceable standards, practice and conduct of businesses. It is the ability to add and remove—

Slow down!

Noyona Chundur: Sorry, would you like me to step through each one? Would that be easier?

You are going through them quite well, but could you go you through them slightly more slowly, because colleagues will want to write them down?

Noyona Chundur: The first thing for us is building consumer confidence as a priority, because prioritising consumer protection to build the foundations that create confidence in competitive markets will benefit both the consumer and the economy. We are looking at this through the prism of the cost of living crisis and through the heightened prism of vulnerability. In the packs that we provided, you can see that vulnerability has certainly increased in the last 12 months. The Consumer Council has dealt with over 33,000 consumers, and they are showing increasingly more complex and multifaceted needs. Income in Northern Ireland has—

Q Sorry: your list of eight things was quite useful, so would you be able to go through those—as you were before, but just a bit slower?

Noyona Chundur: Understood. Did I get to adding to or removing from the list of banned practices in the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008?

I wrote down the first one.

Could you start the list again?

Noyona Chundur: Okay. Building consumer confidence is a key priority for us. The second thing is the potential risk of only the CMA having direct enforcement powers. The third is perhaps expanding the Bill in some way to include the supervision of enforceable, standards, practice and conduct. The fourth is adding to or removing from the CPR list of banned practices.

Next is establishing enforceable minimum standards to alternative dispute resolution schemes. We welcome the mandatory accreditation as part of the Bill, but we would like to take it a step further. Then there is a question around better regulation of firms that exploit behavioural bias or nudge techniques for negative effect. Finally, we recommend going further on subscription traps with opt-in clauses after the trial or end-of-contract period.

Q Thank you—that was very helpful. On subscription traps, you will have evidence for recommending opt-in rather than opt-out. Could you talk us through the impact of the opt-out?

Noyona Chundur: The key thing for us comes from research that the Government have published. I think the Department for Business and Trade estimated that 81% of UK households signed up to at least one subscription last year, and consumers are spending £1.6 billion per year on subscriptions that they do not want. That is a huge amount of money that a lot of consumers do not have in the current cost of living crisis. Our own research highlights the lived experience. In the online detriment research that we carried out, one consumer told us that they signed up for a 30-day trial but it took them six months to get the subscription cancelled. In the light of that, I think that it is appropriate for us to recommend that legislating for opt-in clauses after the initial trial or end-of-contract period is reasonable. I also believe that that may deliver the most immediate and material benefit to consumers in the short term, given the vast quantities involved.

Q Mr Eisenegger, are there any gaps that you would argue for, and what is your view on fake reviews and whether they are being sufficiently addressed in the legislation?

Peter Eisenegger: Our overall approach here, at the more strategic level, is that the Bill contains lots of good stuff. It is a significant step forward. What we do not want is, as has happened with the Online Safety Bill, for it to hang around forever and not enter law. Our view is that we can talk about improvements in some areas. You mentioned one—the way that fake reviews are handled. To delve into that detail, however, would just prolong the process of getting it into law. We recommend that the Bill gets enacted as soon as possible, that we recognise it as a step forward, and that the CMA and this Committee look at areas of improvement beyond it. There is something that would relate to online reviews in terms of whether the information being provided is accurate, but it is good enough. Let us press on and get it done.

That said, I have not heard a discussion about the role of standards and supporting regulation. We are in the digital world, and an awful lot of regulation is supported by standards. You will find that General Data Protection Regulation is leaning very heavily on work in Europe to adapt and put some final European tweaks on the work that has gone on at the ISO level, and similarly with AI. If you want to be a leading player in this area, particularly an innovative one, from our perspective—we play in international, European and UK standards—you have to be very well aware of, and participating in, all those arenas.

To make an innovation comment—having spent two thirds of my career in product management and innovation, I am now doffing the consumer cap and putting the real-life innovation one on—good innovation practice is to look at what other people are doing and pinch as many legitimate ideas as you can from them. Quite honestly, the fact that the EU has the same sort of intent but a slightly different approach is great. Just keep an eye on its members to see whether there is good stuff. To be fair, I will say the same to them, because I am participating in the AI standardisation at the moment.

Q In the interests of time, I will move on to Ms Reilly. What is your view of how this will affect/benefit consumers in Scotland? Are there any other specific issues that we should consider in relation to Scotland?

Tracey Reilly: Broadly speaking, we welcome the Bill. As your previous panellists said, it has lots of good stuff in it. It should provide the CMA with more flexible powers, which can be used in a more responsive and timely way to prevent detriment. On how the Bill will affect individual consumers, we hope that it will lead to consumers experiencing lower levels of detriment and being less subject to unfair, misleading or aggressive trade practices so that if and when such practices occur, they can be stamped out more quickly and easily, and it is easier for consumers to seek redress through ADR systems that are appropriately regulated and standardised.

In terms of how the Bill will affect Scottish interests, in many ways the level of detriment experienced by consumers across the UK is similar. The consumer protection survey is UK-wide and the patterns of detriment for Scottish consumers are generally not hugely different from those experienced in the rest of the UK. That said, there are obviously differences between the two nations in the regulatory enforcement and judicial landscapes, and it is important that we understand and pay attention to them. Equally, I understand that the Department has been engaging with Scottish stakeholders. We welcome that and would obviously like that to continue through the implementation process.

Some markets operate differently in Scotland, either because they are entirely devolved because there are fewer providers and therefore lower levels of competition, or because consumers access services differently, for example, due to geography. It is important that, within the overall UK framework, the system can respond to those regional differences or local issues. We hope that the additional levels of flexibility granted to the CMA under the Bill will allow for a more flexible and targeted response, particularly if any local practices cause detriment. We look forward to liaising with the CMA on that. Noyona may wish to make additional comments, given that she is in Northern Ireland.

Q Noyona, you mentioned that you felt that the CMA should not be the only enforcement body that oversees the legislation. Who else do you think has the experience and expertise to perform some of those significant obligations?

Noyona Chundur: There is a heightened risk, Minister, if the new direct enforcement powers sit only with the CMA. Ultimately, the purpose of those powers is to be much more agile, flexible and responsive to consumer detriment in the market. Is there a heightened risk that enforcement will default to the CMA because perhaps it may deliver a solution that is much more agile and responsive and much more in keeping with the pace of detriment in the marketplace compared with a courts-based system? The sector regulators and trading standards could therefore have the same or similar powers. The question is about agility and responsiveness to detriment, which is exploding in the marketplace. We see it increasingly, particularly in digital markets, which evolve so quickly. That is our perspective.

Q The Bill aims to protect consumers and challenge unfair competition online, but one significant disadvantage for British companies and consumers is counterfeit goods sold on platforms such as Amazon. For example, the British company that holds a licence to make Peppa Pig toys has the trademark and the patent, and meets the standards, including safety standards, but counterfeit goods, particularly those imported from other countries such as China, are dangerous and do not meet safety conditions. Will the Bill help end that situation for consumers and companies here? Is it an opportunity to do so or, if not, is it amendable to achieve that?

Peter Eisenegger: The Bill has clauses that allow us to address that in terms of, “Has the information put before the consumer been complete and accurate?” If something does not comply with safety standards, that has been omitted. It is a question of interpretation that we would have to nail down and make clear.

Q Would the Bill allow for a company here to say that? Amazon’s excuse is that that is for the producer in China, for example, to do that, rather than for Amazon. Does the Bill address that gap or not?

Peter Eisenegger: This is an area where I have had a lot of conversation with Electrical Safety First, which is very concerned about it. We have started to outline, at a very preliminary stage, what constitutes an online market set of functionality for which people should be held responsible and—what do you know—Amazon fits that. We find that online retailers do not perform all the functions, but they perform enough to be reasonably interpreted as having a retailing responsibility in the traditional physical world. But they have to do the heavy lifting of getting stuck into the detail and mapping it out.

I am afraid I come back to the standards world, which tends to be set up to provide that level of detail for the regulation to lean on. There are standards for complaints handling, for alternative dispute resolution, for dealing with vulnerable consumers and for online reviews—all issues that touch on what we have said. They are there, and mainly my UK consumer colleagues in British Standards either instituted them or were very influential in getting them taken forward.

A personal expert view? Yes, I think it can be interpreted that people like Amazon have a retail responsibility. To provide the evidence and analysis to support that position, however, is work that we have started with Electrical Safety First, but we are a bit busy and neither of us has had the time to finish it off.

Q Thank you for your work. Perhaps the Government will pick up on some of that. Noyona, I think you were going to come in.

Noyona Chundur: May I add something? Electrical standards are not my area of expertise, unlike consumer expectations around standards generally, so I will make a comment about that. Consumers expect minimum standards, particularly in new markets. It is worth saying that when we are talking about new digital markets, everyone is vulnerable, so there is no “vulnerable consumer” per se.

An interesting point to make is that we did a joint project with the Utility Regulator for Northern Ireland on what consumer expectations might be of future regulation and decarbonisation. Consumers were very clear that, in addition to trusted accessible information and concerns about costs or financial health, they wanted absolute protection from safety fraud, obsolescence or mis-selling, but they also wanted clear and robust standards on certification, registration and standards for installers, and protection against damage and disruption during installation. That is moving away from something that is perhaps more price-led and economic to where we need to have a minimum enforceable standard that works for everyone, so that we bolster the safety net and create confidence in markets. The more that we do that, the more consumer spending we have in the economy, which is good for everyone.

Peter Eisenegger: May I make a comment about enforcement? A backstop is in action at the moment: the class actions that our law now allows for the consumer world. My colleague Arnold Pindar, the chair of the NCF, is part of an advisory group that is taking on Mastercard at the moment. Another colleague, Julie Hunter, is fronting the case against Amazon about the way it presents its own products unfairly in its online marketplace. These names are in the public domain; I would not mention them otherwise. To a certain extent, the powers being provided to the CMA to be a bit more responsive and active make sense where we have class actions, which really is a major “after the horse has bolted” situation. We hope that the CMA will prevent more horses from escaping. Thank you for the opportunity to comment.

Q Could you give us examples of where the industry has set standards in the digital space that have helped to address particular holes? You have given us a list of standards for online reviews and alternative dispute resolution, but can you give us a way to explain to our constituents why these industry-led standards help to underline good behaviour in this market, and why it is important that they are set in an international sphere for these players?

Peter Eisenegger: Okay. The industry-led—

Are they industry-led?

Peter Eisenegger: You only get good standards when you have proper stakeholder engagement—that is a comment that we address in our supporting paper. You need standardisation bodies that actually work hard at getting their stakeholders involved. BSI is good at that, and the European system is pretty good. In the digital area, because there are so few of us with the right background and expertise, you find that the consumer voice is not getting through. I have two consumer colleagues who are on the BSI mirror committee for AI; they feel that the international standard is not reflecting what they are trying to input, because we do not really have anyone effective at the international level on the consumer side.

You need very careful insight into where there is decent stakeholder engagement and where there is not. Where there is, you are quite right: I have worked on a number of committees where the good guys and gals from industry have just been saying the right thing, and you end up just tweaking a little of what they already understand in their industry is good practice. There is no problem with working with the good people in industry, but—particularly in the digital space—you do get the big players coming in and influencing things, whereas the small and medium-sized enterprise stakeholders are not as fully represented. When a standard is put forward, careful understanding is needed of who the people are who are really contributing to it.

Q I think you said that you sometimes see the standardisation process in the digital world being used by larger players to put barriers in the way of smaller players getting involved.

Peter Eisenegger: Exactly.

Q Can you give an example where you have seen that?

Peter Eisenegger: Yes, I can. It was a consumer-initiated standard on complaints handling. If you want the number, I can blind you with it: it was ISO 10002. It was initiated by the consumer side of ISO. It is clearly written for the big company: it has lots of good practice where you divide all the responsibilities, the analysis of the complaints and things like that. There is an annex for SMEs. I have been through the main part of the document and counted the number of requirements: there are more than 250. For the SMEs, there are eight.

Where you look at the consumer and it is your small local trader, you go, “That’s fine,” because they know you personally—you know where they live, basically, and that changes the whole local relationship. But you do not really see that many standards where the practicalities for the smaller company are reflected. I am quite pleased that the consumer world did a decent job for the SMEs there, because they are very important to us in terms of local service and providing competition to the big guys.

Q I want to come back to some areas that we have picked up on in previous evidence sessions. Schedule 18 to the Bill sets out a list of commercial practices that are to be considered unfair, but a number of arguably unfair commercial practices are not included. Examples might be drip pricing or misleading green advertising, which is an increasing consumer concern. Do you consider those omissions to be something that needs more attention during the passage of the Bill so we do not miss this opportunity?

Peter Eisenegger: Do as much as you feel you can make time for, while getting the Bill implemented as quickly as possible. I come back to the key clauses that relate to the appropriateness of the information provided. Is it complete? Is it misleading? As a charity, we have looked at how heat pumps are being advertised at the moment. About 80% of the online information did not provide the right contextual information for your heat pump decision; some did not even mention it at all, and a few hid it away behind several layers of interaction with the website before you found it out. That would fall under the incompleteness clause, but again, you are going to come back. The CMA would be able to apply an interpretation, which would probably go through some sort of intense dialogue with the industry people concerned, but if you do not have time to cover all those other aspects as explicitly as you would wish in the Bill, I think there is a clause that gives the CMA some capability for addressing it.

Noyona Chundur: Maybe I can add to that. This talks to the point in the earlier session on how quickly or whether fake reviews should be automatically added to the list of bad practices, or should we go through full consultation. In all these things, we need to have appropriate consultation and the appropriate due diligence carried out. It needs to be done as quickly and thoroughly as possible so there is no doubt. I am completely supportive of what was said earlier today that there is a lot of detriment as a result of fake reviews, and the sooner that is resolved, the better. None the less, we need to be careful about setting the right precedents. We need to have consistency in procedural application. For all those things—I believe we are all in agreement that drip pricing is of huge concern, as are misleading green claims—we need to follow the right process and get through it as quickly as possible.