Civil Service Civil Servants (Directorships) 94. Mr. Chapman asked the Minister for the Civil Service what initiative he is taking to encourage appropriate civil servants to seek unpaid, non-executive directorships of United Kingdom companies. The Minister of State, Privy Council Office (Mr. Richard Luce) The report on the work of the Management and Personnel Office, which was published in January, referred to non-executive directorships as one of a number of ways in which the Government encourage the interchange of staff between the Civil Service and industry and commerce. Mr. Chapman I welcome that initiative and development. I know that my right hon. Friend agrees that it is to the benefit of the country as a whole that there should be a greater interchange between civil servants and industrialists and business men, and I recognise the difficulties of secondments being full time. Will my right hon. Friend look carefully at part-time interchanges, not only with more civil servants taking up non-executive directorships, but with more industrialists and business men being appointed to ad hoc advisory bodies dealing with administrative problems of the Civil Service? Mr. Luce I agree with my hon. Friend that the more interchange that we can get between the public sector and the private sector, the better it will be. About 40 civil servants have outside, non-paid directorships and they are getting important experience which will be of benefit to the Government. As my hon. Friend knows, there are a number of other schemes. I have improved the targets for the Government and industry secondment scheme, and there is also the straightforward possibility of bringing in outsiders on contract, which can help the Government's service. Mr. Wrigglesworth I welcome the numbers that the right hon. Gentleman quoted and I hope that they will be increased. Will he acknowledge that business men can learn a great deal, particularly at senior levels in the Civil Service, where they operate in a completely different environment, which is useful to them when they return to their business careers? Mr. Luce I agree completely with the hon. Gentleman. It is important that we should continue to encourage business men to come in on secondment. Just under 200 do so at present, and I am trying to encourage more to come in. It is good, not only for them, but for the Civil Service, which benefits from their experience. Mr. Soames I welcome the steps that my right hon. Friend has taken, but does he agree that the secondment figures are lamentably low and that an interchange of staff is immensely to the benefit not only of civil servants but of business men? Will my right hon. Friend and his colleagues exert their political will — that is what is required — to ensure that there is more coming and going between industry and the Civil Service? Mr. Luce I accept that the number of civil servants with non-executive directorships is very low. It is only a start in the right direction, but I agree with my hon. Friend that it is important to persuade more businesses to take on civil servants so that they can get valuable experience. The Government and I will do whatever we can to encourage that process. Mr. Tony Banks Is the Minister not worried about the close links between the Civil Service and big business, given the various recent allegations about Ministry of Defence staff becoming involved in work for manufacturers supplying Government contracts? Ought not the Minister to advance with considerable caution, in view of concern about the possibility of corruption? Mr. Luce Of course it is important to establish that there is no clash of interests. However, the hon. Gentleman seems to have a hostile attitude towards the private sector. If we as a nation are trying to create more wealth, the more civil servants who have experience of wealth creation, the better it will be for the country. Recruitment 97. Mr. Peter Bruinvels asked the Minister for the Civil Service what representations he has received from Civil Service unions regarding recruitment; and if he will make a statement. Mr. Luce None, sir. Mr. Bruinvels Is my right hon. Friend aware of the difficulties facing management—certainly in Leicester—and the Civil and Public Services Association, over the concept of whether overtime should be offered or more casual staff taken on? Does he agree that offering flexible pay nationally is a good concept? If a no-strike clause were brought into the contracts of all new civil servants, would we not have the best Civil Service in the world? Mr. Luce I agree that it is important to have a more flexible pay scheme, designed to encourage better recruitment as well as retention of civil servants. The Government are making positive moves in that direction. There is already evidence in certain professions—for example, engineering and science as a whole—that both recruitment and retention are very much better. Mr. Alton Does the Minister agree that it would be unnecessary to embark on a major recruitment policy if civil servants were not used for extraneous duties, such as helping to complete tax returns and giving special advice to Ministers? Mr. Luce That is a very petty question, and it is not worth answering. Mr. Key Will my right hon. Friend confirm that it is Civil Service policy that, when disabled people are to be recruited, they are automatically interviewed at the point of entry? Will he also confirm that, once a disabled person has been recruited, every attempt is made to ensure that that person is placed in an appropriate job, rather than being given a job that is too demanding and then experiencing the disappointment of being sacked or moved elsewhere? Mr. Luce In answer to my hon. Friend's first question, I shall double-check the position. The Government and the Civil Service employ a 1·4 per cent. quota of disabled people, which is entirely in line with the national position. We are doing our utmost to play our part in that regard. Mr. Winnick Should not those employed in the public service be very disturbed lest, if the Government are re-elected—however unlikely that is—civil servants may be unable to take strike action, or may even be forbidden to belong to a trade union, as happened with GCHQ? Bearing in mind what is happening with the teachers, should not the warning issued by the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Bruinvels) be heard by those employed in the public service? Mr. Luce As usual, the hon. Gentleman is talking nonsense. I was interested to note that the Select Committee on Treasury and Civil Service expressed the view last year that the Civil Service provided an impartial service and was loyal to the Government of the day. That view received all-party support. Mr. Favell Are the Civil Service unions relaxing their opposition to the relocation of Civil Service jobs in the north, where many well-qualified people are ready, willing and able to do work that could be done far better there than in the south? Mr. Luce If both relocation policy and dispersal policy are taken into account — just under 6,000 employees have been dispersed since 1979—a considerable number of people are being relocated on grounds of economy arid efficiency. Dr. McDonald Will the Minister note and report to his right hon. and hon. Friends the Opposition's alarm at the proposal to cut 433 civil servants in jobcentres who are engaged in helping people to find jobs and also at the proposal to increase the numbers who are employed in the restart scheme, who are concerned merely with discouraging people from claiming benefit, thus reducing the numbers of the unemployed? Will he note this alarm and immediately reverse the policy, because the prime purpose of civil servants in the jobcentres should he to try to enable people to find jobs. Mr. Luce The hon. Lady spoilt her case by making quite untrue allegations about the activities of civil servants in discouraging people from claiming benefit. She ought to withdraw her remarks. As for the size of the Civil Service, the Government have made it quite clear that we shall be entirely flexible, if there is a strong case for improving services. We have done that with Customs and Excise and also with the Inland Revenue, and we have increased the numbers in the Department of Health and Social Security. If there is a case, we consider it carefully. Mr. Rhodes James On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply to my supplementary question on question 40, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment. Mr. Adley On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We all admire the enthusiasm of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher) and the large number of oral questions that he has managed to have placed on the Order Paper— Mr. Speaker Order. That is not a point of order. It is encouraging that there should be this interest in the arts. Mr. Adley My point, Mr. Speaker, is that, by my estimate, 35 of those hon. Members who had oral questions on today's Order Paper were not here, and I am wondering how many of them gave you notice that they would not be here. It costs the public a great deal of money to have questions placed on the Order Paper, and if hon. Members cannot be bothered to turn up public money is wasted. Mr. Forth Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker Is it helpful? Mr. Forth Yes. In the context of what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Adley), following a day such as today, will you consider instructing the Table Office that if an hon. Member who is lucky enough to have his question drawn does not turn up to ask his question, it should not accept another question from him? Mr. Speaker Order. I do not think that the House as a whole would welcome that suggestion. There may be very good reasons why an hon. Member cannot he present. However, the tabling of questions is undoubtedly costly, and hon. Members who have questions on the Order Paper, particularly if they are high on the Order Paper and likely to be reached, should be present. If they cannot be present, it would be of great convenience to let the Chair know so that their names are not called. Mr. Heffer Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Should the House not remember what the late Sir Gerald Nabarro once said—that hon. Members should not put down a question unless they know the answer? Mr. Speaker I am lost for words.