Transport: Public Lavatories Question 11:12:00 Asked By Baroness Greengross To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will extend the provisions of the Public Lavatories (Turnstiles) Act 1963 to include lavatories provided by transport operators at bus and rail stations. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Andrews) My Lords, arrangements for providing public toilets at stations are the responsibility of station operators and, for rail stations, are governed by a robust code of practice. More generally, the Government have taken concerted action this year to promote access to better quality public toilets for all people, including the publication of a strategic guide and more detailed guidance for local authority partnerships on innovative approaches. Baroness Greengross My Lords, I thank the Minister for that helpful reply but this is a long-standing problem. In 1961, luminaries of the day such as Barbara Castle, Irene Ward and Fenner Brockway participated in a debate advocating the removal of turnstiles at lavatories operated by local authorities. It took a further two years for the ban to be approved, but now, 46 years later, they are still in place at some lavatories provided by transport operators, often to the great inconvenience of people with luggage and baby buggies, many women who are pregnant and a great many older people who have immense difficulties. It is rather sad when the noble Baroness is so committed to lifetime neighbourhoods. Does she agree that it is now time to take steps to ban turnstiles on public transport? Baroness Andrews My Lords, the noble Baroness has raised an important issue. I absolutely recognise that a lack of access to toilet facilities at stations is a real barrier to people feeling confident about travelling. It is an issue that we take seriously. I do not think that a ban on turnstiles is the way to speed things up. There are three things happening at the moment. First, turnstiles are being phased out as stations are being modernised. Secondly, there is a modernisation programme of £150 million to make stations and toilets more accessible. Thirdly, there is the code of practice that I referred to, which means that licensed train station operators have to observe the code on accessible train and station design whenever they install, renew or replace facilities. That means that they must provide alternative arrangements for passengers who are unable to use turnstiles, that an accessible manual gate should be permanently available, and so on. I recognise that this is not always satisfactory. If the noble Baroness has examples that she wants to draw to my attention, I can pass them on to the Minister at DfT and we can look again at what is urgently needed. Baroness Gardner of Parkes My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister is aware that when I contested the election against Barbara Castle in 1970, her recent glory was that she had managed to remove the charge for women. This was in the days of British Rail, when men always had free railway toilets, but women had a slot that they had to put a penny in. She ensured that equality of charges, meaning removal of the charge for women, applied. I am aware that now charges are applied. Is the same principle still followed; and do men and women pay the same charge for the use of these facilities at stations? Baroness Andrews My Lords, the loss of the House of Commons was the gain of the House of Lords in relation to the noble Baroness. I am pleased to say that we have addressed the issue of inequality in charging. It was an historical anomaly that enabled local authorities to charge for toilets for women but not for urinals. The strategic guide that we put out last March removed that anomaly, so now local authorities can, if they so choose, charge for all forms of lavatory provision. That is an opportunity for a revenue stream that we hope will provide additional provision and facilities. Lord Bradshaw My Lords— Baroness Trumpington My Lords— The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath) My Lords, shall we hear from the noble Baroness first? Baroness Trumpington My Lords, is the Minister aware that when I was mayor of Cambridge I abandoned the payment by women and afterwards was known there as “mother of the free”? Baroness Andrews My Lords, I would expect no less from the noble Baroness. Cambridge has always pioneered a lot of good practice. Now, we are looking to places such as Richmond which have developed community schemes that mean that local shops and businesses also offer free lavatory provision, which makes more choice available for everyone. Lord Bradshaw My Lords, in her answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, about railway facilities—we are talking about facilities at transport interchanges—the Minister made reference to the fact that there is a code of practice and said that when stations are renewed things will be improved. The Government have been in office for more than 10 years and we are waiting for many of these improvements to happen. Can it not be made a condition of railway franchises that anyone taking a franchise will maintain good standards of public lavatory facilities? Baroness Andrews My Lords, the noble Lord is so expert in this that I am sure he will know that, if train and station operators fail to follow the code that I referred to, they are in breach of their licence conditions and action can be taken by the Office of Rail Regulation. They can be fined, for example. His point is important. We have in place a programme of additional funding for modernisation, which means that 700 stations have had access to funding to improve access, and there have been high levels of applications for improving lavatories in the latest bidding round. Clearly, this is something that both DfT and the train operators know is of real concern to the public, and they are acting on it. Lord Faulkner of Worcester My Lords, further to my noble friend’s previous answer, is she aware that a number of train operators are facing financial difficulties and are announcing the early closure of stations? One of the consequences of closing a station early in the evening is that all the facilities on that station are locked. Does she believe that it is necessary for her colleagues to talk to the Office of Rail Regulation about ensuring that some basic lavatory facilities are maintained, even if the station is unstaffed? Baroness Andrews Yes, my Lords, that is an important point and I will take it away and talk to my colleagues in the DfT about that. Providing information about the location of the nearest accessible toilet is very important. Noble Lords might like to know that Westminster has something called a Sat Lav service, whereby you can text to find out where your nearest lavatory is. Lord Hunt of Kings Heath My Lords, noble Lords may have noticed that the clock was inadvertently stopped after the first Question. There is a precedent, and we shall start the clock again, so there will be 15 minutes for the final two Questions.