Oral Answers to Questions Church Commissioners The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the Church Commissioners, was asked— St Margaret’s Church, Westminster Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con) 1. What representations the Church Commissioners have received on the St. Margaret’s church, Westminster restoration appeal. The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Stuart Bell) Let me say to the hon. Gentleman, without discourtesy, that the answer is none. Let me add, however, that I have visited St. Margaret’s and seen what urgent remedial work has to be done. I invite other Members also to visit the church. Mark Pritchard As the hon. Gentleman will know, St. Margaret’s church dates back to the 11th century and was last refaced in 1725. The sum of £2 million is a significant target. Given that St. Margaret’s is the parish church of this House of Commons and often conducts funerals and memorial services for Members, will the hon. Gentleman undertake to hold discussions with the Church Commissioners and the chapter of Westminster Abbey to ensure that those funds are raised? Sir Stuart Bell The hon. Gentleman is right to reflect on the £2 million that the appeal is intended to raise. He is also right to point out that in 1972 an Act of Parliament required Westminster abbey by law to keep St. Margaret’s open for such use as Parliament required. In the usual fashion, however, it did not allow for funding from Parliament. We hope that Members will contribute generously to the appeal, and I repeat that they should visit the church as often as they can. I will certainly refer the hon. Gentleman’s question to the Church Commissioners. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op) One of the most heavily used paved areas in this crowded and busy city must be the footpath between St. Margaret’s and the abbey, and the slabbed area in front of the church. Is it right that the church is having to fund the restoration of those cracked and uneven areas? Should that not be either for Westminster city council or for the national taxpayer? If that is part of the scheme, it is unfair. Sir Stuart Bell My hon. Friend has made a valid point. The church is always on its own when it comes to expenditure; it receives no support whatever from the Government. The Westminster Abbey and St. Margaret Westminster Act 1972 placed the church and churchyard of St. Margaret’s once more under the governance of the dean and chapter of Westminster, with one of the canons, Mr. Speaker’s chaplain, serving as rector. The question of who is responsible for the upkeep of the footpath seems to have fallen through one of the many interstices that prevent the Government from spending any money at all. Parish Priests Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con) 2. How many parish priests there were in England on 1 June (a) 1997 and (b) 2009. Sir Stuart Bell Figures are published at the end of December. On 31 December 1997 there were 7,471 full-time parochial clergy of incumbent status, compared with 6,450 on 31 December 2007, the latest year for which figures are available. Miss McIntosh Does the hon. Gentleman agree that parish priests play a crucial role, especially in rural parishes? Because the number of priests has fallen, the size and number of parishes that they are being asked to look after has risen. That is putting huge pressure on them, and is obviously quite stressful. What are the hon. Gentleman and the Church Commissioners doing to try to increase the number of parish priests, particularly in rural areas? Sir Stuart Bell I know that the hon. Lady has strong views about the adequacy of the stipend to attract priests, especially in rural parishes. The Church is keen for stipends to be flexible enough to allow it to put clergy where they can best be deployed, consistent with preventing their mobility from being impeded. As the hon. Lady has said, the number of ordinants has risen. In 2007, 552 new clergy were ordained, the highest number since 2000. We welcome the upward trend in ordination numbers, but recognise that owing to deaths and retirements the number of stipendiary clergy is falling overall. Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op) It is good to hear that there are more priests in training—particularly, one imagines, women priests—but, in addition to the amalgamation of many parishes, another growing trend which I consider worrying is that priests are expected to do at least a part-time job, if not a full-time job, as well as being priests. That puts enormous pressure on them. What research is the Church undertaking to ensure that those people can cope with the new work load, and are not unfairly put upon? Sir Stuart Bell My hon. Friend makes a valid point. At the end of 1997, 6 per cent. of parochial-incumbent status clergy—or 426 overall—were women, whereas in 2007, 15 per cent., or 974, were women. I fully accept my hon. Friend’s point about the work load of priests. During the recess I was up in Teesdale, where I visited many churches and was surprised to learn that one particular vicar covered at least five churches, which seemed to me an enormous work load. The problem is recognised, but how we deal with it shall have to be discussed with the Archbishops Council. Sale of Redundant Churches John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) (Lab) 3. How much income was received by the Church of England from the sale of redundant churches in 2008. Sir Stuart Bell In 2008, net proceeds from the disposal of closed church buildings and sites were just under £4 million. John Robertson I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. Does he know what conditions were attached to the sale of those churches, and how many of them ended up becoming part of the leisure and entertainment industry, and particularly the adult entertainment sector? Sir Stuart Bell We have very strict criteria on redundant churches and what uses they can be put to after sale. If my hon. Friend has a particular case he wishes to refer to me, I will be very interested to look at it. I am sure that he will understand and accept that the proceeds from the sale of closed churches are used to support dioceses in the work of the living Church. Since the Pastoral Measure came into effect, we have distributed £32 million in such support, also supporting the preservation efforts of the Churches Conservation Trust which is co-funded by the Government. To return to my hon. Friend’s original point, we take great care when we sell a redundant church. Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con) In deciding on the proceeds from the sales of redundant churches, what consideration is given to the wonderful work undertaken by the Churches Conservation Trust? During the recess, I met its north-west regional manager at Christ church, a beautiful church in Macclesfield which could be used by the public if there were sufficient investment to enable it to meet health and safety requirements and all the other regulations imposed by Government. What consideration does the hon. Gentleman give to the work of the Churches Conservation Trust? Sir Stuart Bell I am grateful for the opportunity to repeat what I said a moment ago: the proceeds from the sale of closed churches are used in some measure to support the preservation efforts of the Churches Conservation Trust, which is co-funded by the Government. Therefore it is welcome that the 2008 sale proceeds were the highest for over a decade; that helps us help the Churches Conservation Trust. The current outlook for sales proceeds is less encouraging, however, given the economic climate. Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) Is the hon. Gentleman able to say how much of the net proceeds are reinvested in new church buildings? I always find it very sad when I see a closed church building, but if the money is being reinvested in a new church building the picture is, perhaps, not quite as bad as it might appear. Sir Stuart Bell I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point. The purpose of the sales proceeds is essentially to support the dioceses in their work, which might, of course, include building a new church. We should not forget that thousands of churches up and down the land remain open. It is extremely important that people throughout the country have access to their churches when they wish, and if we are closing down churches, it would be nice sometimes to open others. Agricultural Land Mr. Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) (Con) 4. What acreage of agricultural land is owned by the Church Commissioners. Sir Stuart Bell The commissioners hold over 109,000 acres of English farmland, spread across 44 estates and over 300 farms. Mr. Gibb The Archbishop of Canterbury wants more food to be grown locally and has attacked organisations driven solely by the desire to make money. Is it not therefore paradoxical that the Church Commissioners, which he chairs, wants to concrete over 300 acres of prime agricultural land to the west of Chalcraft lane in my constituency? When challenged, the commissioners say they want to build on that land because they are obliged to maximise the amount of money they make. If the Archbishop of Canterbury were a politician, would it not be fair to say that he says one thing but does another? Sir Stuart Bell It is always pleasant when the Archbishop of Canterbury is cited in the House of Commons. I am sure that he does not wish to be a politician and I would urge him not to be one. [Hon. Members: “He is a Member.”] The archbishop is a Member of the House of Commons now, is he? [Hon. Members: “He is in the Lords.”] He is a Member in Parliament; I am being diverted, Mr. Speaker. The commissioners’ staff have explained to the hon. Gentleman that we have a legal duty to our beneficiaries. On this occasion, we accept that we have met some controversy in his constituency, but we have not to be distracted from our fiduciary duty. As the House is in an enlightened mood, may I cite the scriptures? In Ezekiel, it states: “In controversy they shall stand in judgment…and they shall keep my laws and statutes.” We propose to keep the laws and statutes of Parliament that have been conferred upon the Church Commissioners. Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con) Can the hon. Gentleman tell us how much income the Church Commissioners are getting from their agricultural holdings as a result of EU subsidies? Is he pleased or angry that as a result of the devaluation of the pound those subsidies are increasing? Mr. Speaker Order. Notwithstanding the hon. Gentleman’s considerable ingenuity, he is stretching a point. He might wish to dilate on that matter on another occasion, because it is outwith the terms of this question. We will therefore move on to Question 5. Bats Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con) 5. What recent discussions the Church Commissioners have had with Natural England on the protection of rare bats in church roofs. Sir Stuart Bell The Archbishops Council is working with not only Natural England but the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, English Heritage and the Bat Conservation Trust to strike a sensible balance between the protection of church buildings and their contents, and the protection of bats. Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con) Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a number of Norfolk churches have had their roof repair programmes delayed as a result of intervention by Natural England, which has insisted on the undertaking of lengthy and costly bat surveys? He is obviously aware of the problem, given his reply, so can he tell the House how many churches have been similarly affected? Does he agree that however important it is to conserve the bat, it is even more important to make an absolute priority of conserving our great heritage? Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con) It is batty! Sir Stuart Bell Yes, I am grateful to the hon. Member for Salisbury (Robert Key). The commissioners are aware of Natural England’s requirements on such occasions and of the problem faced by the several hundred parish churches—of the thousands of such churches—that have bats. Only a handful of those churches have serious problems with bats, but in those cases the bats cause significant damage and great inconvenience. I would be happy to take up with Natural England the point that the hon. Gentleman has made. Special Marriage Licences Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con) 6. Under what conditions the faculty office of the Archbishop of Canterbury may grant a special marriage licence for a wedding in a redundant church. Sir Stuart Bell The Archbishop uses his power to grant such licences sparingly and with considerable care. It is not possible to list all the possible specific circumstances in which such a special licence might be granted, but I may tell the hon. Gentlemen that applicants should have a strong demonstrable connection with the church in question. Robert Key May I invite the Second Church Estates Commissioner to invite the Archbishop’s registrar to review the rules, because they are overzealous, they discourage people from getting married in church, they disappoint couples who have local connections—that has been the case in my constituency—and they deprive the Churches Conservation Trust of vital income? We should be encouraging the use of churches that have been deconsecrated and can be licensed for such purposes, rather than trying to put every possible object in the way of the use of those redundant churches. Sir Stuart Bell The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. For the second time today we have referred to the Archbishop of Canterbury. He is sparing in the exercise of his powers over the places of marriage in the Church of England. Marriage ought normally to take place in a suitable parish church where couples have an ongoing worshipping relationship and receive the pastoral care of the priest. We must remember that thousands of churches remain open and that, as a result of the Church of England Marriage Measure 2008, there are many more churches from which to choose. However, I shall be happy to take up with Lambeth palace the point that the hon. Gentleman raises. Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con) Rents on agricultural holdings have increased considerably over the past decade, and that has benefited the Church Commissioners. Is any regard taken of the level of single farm payment paid to those farmers when those rents are set? Sir Stuart Bell I am not entirely clear how that fits with a question about the special marriage licence for a wedding in a redundant church, but the hon. Gentleman makes a valid and pertinent point and I will be happy to take it up with the Church Commissioners. Solicitor-General The Solicitor-General was asked— Serious Fraud Office Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con) 7. What initiatives the Serious Fraud Office is undertaking to reduce the incidence of fraud. Richard Ottaway (Croydon, South) (Con) 10. What recent steps the Serious Fraud Office has taken to reduce the incidence of fraud. The Solicitor-General (Vera Baird) The Serious Fraud Office is doing a significant amount of work to educate the public to reduce the incidence of fraud. In addition to its frequent engagement with the public face to face, the SFO’s new website offers advice on how to protect oneself from being a target for fraud and gives an up-to-date list of current scams so that they can be recognised and guarded against. Mr. Goodwill A former senior serious fraud officer has described the prosecutions and work undertaken by the office as “only scratching the tip of the iceberg”. Is the Solicitor-General satisfied that the Government are doing enough to deter, detect and prosecute serious fraud in the UK? The Solicitor-General There is obviously a huge amount of fraud around, but yes, we have done a significant amount of work over the past few years. There is now a strategic authority for fraud, a fraud reporting centre is about to come online and there is a fraud intelligence centre. The City of London police are now the national fraud lead agency for investigations, and they have been beefed up. A good deal is happening and, of course, the SFO has undergone something of a transformation and is proceeding very strongly with a range of prosecutions. We think that we are doing a good deal to help with fraud. Mr. Speaker I call Richard Ottaway. He is not here. Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op) I hear what my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General says, and may I commend the SFO for its initiative in meeting Members of Parliament to talk about scams that have been operating in our constituencies? That is a good way forward and I found the session very instructive. Will she pass back our thanks and encourage the office to do more of that? The Solicitor-General I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I shall certainly take that message back to Richard Alderman, the director of the SFO, with whom we meet frequently. He seems to have got the Serious Fraud Office into a good and positive place. Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD) I entirely support what the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) has just said. The initiative is extremely helpful. Welcome progress has been made on fraud, but does the Solicitor-General agree that it is crucial that other parts of the SFO’s work do not suffer as a consequence? Will she join me in congratulating the SFO on its success in the Mabey and Johnson corruption case? Can she assure me that the Attorney-General will not put any barriers in the way of the SFO in the BAE Systems corruption case? The Solicitor-General Once again, I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s praise of the SFO. It is indeed to be congratulated on the Mabey and Johnson case, which involved a series of offences of overseas corruption and the breaching of UN sanctions in connection with the oil-for-food programme. That company has now been ordered to pay almost £7 million. The SFO is clearly determined to continue its investigation of BAE. The papers have not arrived at the Attorney-General’s office and so I cannot make any further comment about that. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op) Has the Solicitor-General read the Conservative party manifesto and its comments about poverty, the health service, higher education— Mr. Speaker Order. I fear that there is no way that the hon. Gentleman, notwithstanding his ingenuity, can get that question in order. Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con) Does the Solicitor-General agree that there seems to be a huge range of Government agencies and prosecuting authorities that deal with the wider subject of economic crime? Is she satisfied that that is an efficient and effective way of dealing with the matter? If she is, will she tell me why? The Solicitor-General I am not sure what broad range the hon. Gentleman means. Obviously, there are departmental prosecutors—the Department of Work and Pensions and so on prosecute their own cases. However, there is a body called the Whitehall prosecutors’ group, who get together under the general superintendence of the Attorney-General and myself and exchange best practice. We hope that we have brought in a good deal more coherence, even though the special understanding of particular kinds of fraud that are endemic in particular Departments’ fields needs to be preserved. I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman is aware that the Crown Prosecution Service and HM Revenue and Customs prosecution offices have recently merged. That has been a very successful exercise so far. At least I can give two examples that should reassure him that we are doing all we can to co-ordinate and make stronger our assault on financial crime. Fraudulent Financial Schemes Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con) 8. What steps she plans to take to protect small and medium-sized businesses from fraudulent financial schemes. The Solicitor-General Through the national fraud strategy, the Government are implementing an integrated programme to make the UK a more hostile place for fraudsters. We are making it easier for small and medium-sized enterprises to report fraud, with the national fraud reporting centre going live, by phone and on the web, on 26 October. Importantly, we also have some guidance specifically tailored to help businesses protect themselves better from fraud. In addition, a more integrated law-enforcement response is being provided by the City of London police which, as I have said already, is the lead force in the country on fraud. Mr. Bellingham I am grateful for that reply, but is the Solicitor-General aware that there has been a very big increase in the number of small and medium-sized businesses falling prey to overseas internet money transfer scams? Typically, such scams involve the proposed transfer of large sums of money in return for bank details. She may say that firms are gullible for falling prey to such schemes, but does she agree that more should be done, perhaps through work with internet service providers? The Solicitor-General I am sure that that is a real possibility. The Serious Fraud Office has an online list of the current scams that it is aware of, and the intention is to alert people to falsities such as the hon. Gentleman has described. However, it is not only small businesses that are offered large amounts of money in return for their bank details: I get quite a lot of those offers myself, and I presume that other Members of Parliament do too. Happily, though, I have never yet fallen for any of them. Recent figures show that 72 per cent. of small businesses think that they are more at risk of fraud as a result of the recession, but that only 22 per cent. are taking further steps to protect their interests. The figures also show that 26 per cent. of small businesses do not check bank and credit card statements regularly, and that 28 per cent. of them do not reconcile purchase orders against goods supplied. There is clearly a lot of work that business itself should be doing, but we stand ready to help in every way that we can. Human Trafficking Mr. Anthony Steen (Totnes) (Con) 9. If she will hold discussions with the Director of Public Prosecutions on policy for the prosecution of human trafficking offences. The Solicitor-General The Attorney-General and I have regular meetings with the DPP, at which we discuss a range of issues. We are due to see him later today. If there were particular concerns about the prosecution of human trafficking offences we would of course raise them with him, within the terms of the protocol between the Attorney-General and prosecuting Departments. Mr. Steen Will the Solicitor-General put on the agenda of the meeting with the DPP the question of confiscation orders against human traffickers? The orders rob traffickers of money, but they do nothing to help victims. Compensation orders for victims are allowed under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, but the money that confiscation orders take from traffickers automatically goes to the Treasury unless the DPP asks for compensation orders at the same time. It is a cruel joke that victims should be deprived of money in that way, and it goes totally against the spirit of the European convention on action against human trafficking which was approved by the Government and the House and which is now being brought into operation. The Solicitor-General When I put something on the agenda for a meeting with the DPP I usually have evidence to support it. All I have at the moment is the hon. Gentleman’s assertion— Mr. Steen That should be good enough! The Solicitor-General Fine; I will take his word for that. However, if there is more evidence, please will he make sure that we have it? Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD) What thought is the Solicitor-General giving to the fact that it is very difficult to get victims of trafficking to act as credible witnesses? That is because, at the end of a trial, they will have no right to remain or to work outside the sex trade—and, obviously, no right to work in that trade either. Moreover, they will have a well founded fear that, if they are returned to their country of origin, they will suffer attack from the criminal associates of the people whom they may have helped to put behind bars. The Solicitor-General The right hon. Gentleman knows that the situation for such people has improved very strongly, with our ratification and implementation of the convention. Such people have a far longer reflection period than is required by international law. Serious support is given to them—we will be funding the POPPY project, which is the leading agency to look after them, to the tune of about £3.75 million over the next couple of years—and serious consideration is given to whether they should not be given a right to remain. We will do all that we can to ensure that such victims help the authorities and that they are properly supported and restored to a better life afterwards. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con) Has any assessment been made of whether the free movement of people across the EU makes it any more difficult to bring forward prosecutions for human trafficking? The Solicitor-General I am afraid that I do not know, but my instincts are that that probably does not make any difference. However, if a piece of work should be done on that, the all-party group on the trafficking of women and children will ensure that it is done. Bribery Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con) 11. What the Government’s plans are for the introduction of legislation on bribery. The Solicitor-General We published a draft Bribery Bill, based on the recommendations of the Law Commission, on 25 March. Pre-legislative scrutiny preceded that, and the recommendations of the Joint Committee on the draft Bribery Bill were published on 28 July. We said in the draft legislative programme that we intended to introduce a Bill in the next Session. Mr. Harper Is the Joint Committee on the draft Bill right to be disappointed by the amount of time that the Government gave it to consider the Bill? Does the Solicitor-General think that it was deprived of a proper opportunity to carry out that pre-legislative scrutiny? The Solicitor-General I am not aware of any risk to the quality of the legislation from over-haste. The Joint Committee was very much in favour of the Bill in its report. After all, the process of modernising our bribery and corruption law has not been speedy. I served on a Committee that considered the last such Bill in 2003, so I cannot imagine that anyone feels that they have been pushed into anything. Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con) Will the Solicitor-General explain the Bill’s remit? Does it cover incidents of bribery and the provision of sweeteners in exports to third countries? In some situations, we have export credit guarantees, but foreign Governments with whom our companies are competing often give better export credit guarantee provision. How do we cope with the fact that sweeteners are a matter of fact in certain third countries? The Solicitor-General Discussion of the Bill’s contents will have to wait until the Bill is published. I am not sure whether the hon. Lady is concerned that we will lose out competitively if we do not espouse bribery, but I would be totally opposed to such a principle. Human Trafficking Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) 12. What her assessment is of the effectiveness of laws relating to human trafficking for sexual exploitation. The Solicitor-General I am sorry to keep everyone waiting; all the numbers in my file are wrong, I am afraid. We keep the effectiveness of the laws on human trafficking for sexual exploitation under review, as our action plan to deal with that topic makes very clear, and if there is a gap, we will tighten the law. As the hon. Gentleman no doubt knows, there are provisions in the Policing and Crime Bill to tackle the demand for exploitative forms of prostitution, including a strict liability offence that criminalises the payment for sexual services to prostitutes who have been subject to force, deception or threats. Mr. Bone It was well worth waiting for the Solicitor-General. Following the question from My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Mr. Steen) about taking money from traffickers and giving it to the victims, is not another problem that the money is very quickly taken out of this country and redistributed to traffickers in the rest of the EU and that we can only confiscate money that remains in this country? Should we consider making this a European issue, so that we can get the money from across the whole of Europe? The Solicitor-General A good deal of work on asset recovery, the proceeds of crime and internationalising the issue is in process. As I told the hon. Member for Totnes (Mr. Steen), if there is any evidence that the Crown Prosecution Service is not applying for compensation to help victims, I would be very pleased to hear it, and if there are any accounts of defects in the process internationally, that will help us in the work that I have already indicated is going on. Therefore, examples would be very welcome. Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con) Does the Solicitor-General accept that there is still a significant problem? In fact, human trafficking for sexual exploitation is increasing, and people are fearful that it will increase substantially in advance of the Olympic games. What are the Government going to do to reduce it? The Solicitor-General We are very much apprised of the hazard that an increase in trafficking will be connected with the Olympic games. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman will have seen that there is a similar apprehension about South Africa and the World cup. We have a concerted action plan, we have ratified the convention and we are totally compliant with all our international requirements, so we are engaged on a mission to try to reduce trafficking however and wherever it is found. Since I answer in relation to the Crown Prosecution Service, I can indicate that the prosecution level has gone up considerably: in 2006-07, 40 people were prosecuted in connection with sexual exploitation; in 2007-08, 87 were prosecuted; and in 2008-09, 114 were prosecuted. Clearly, we are using the courts as a deterrent as well. Joint Committee on Human Rights Report Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD) 13. What discussions she and the Attorney-General have had with ministerial colleagues on the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights on allegations of UK complicity in torture. The Solicitor-General I have read the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights and noted what was said. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Home Secretary and Foreign Secretary have both given their response to the Committee’s conclusions and recommendations. The Prime Minister has informed Parliament that allegations of potential criminal wrongdoing will be referred to the appropriate authorities. The Attorney-General has been clear that she will not provide a running commentary on those issues, and neither will I. Dr. Harris The Solicitor-General will be relieved to know that I am not going to ask about those issues. The Government’s response to the report was very negative. Can she provide the House with any good reason why the previous guidelines to interrogators, suitably redacted, cannot be published, so that the House can know the guidance that the security services and interrogators used when dealing with overseas intelligence services and captives overseas? The Solicitor-General I cannot assist the hon. Gentleman with that, I am afraid. As he knows, several cases have gone to court, brought in particular by former detainees at Guantanamo Bay, and that will open up to them all the powers of disclosure that are in the hands of the High Court. If the Court thinks it appropriate to disclose the documents that the hon. Gentleman seeks, I have no doubt that it will do so. Pro Bono Work Christine Russell (City of Chester) (Lab) 14. What recent progress she has made in encouraging lawyers to undertake pro bono work (a) in England and (b) abroad. The Solicitor-General The domestic and international pro bono co-ordinating committees, which the Attorney-General chairs, continue to undertake excellent work in encouraging lawyers to do pro bono work in the UK and abroad. That includes preparing for the annual pro bono week, which takes place from 9 to 13 November and is intended to raise awareness of pro bono work for lawyers and potential recipients. That week will celebrate the achievements of about 50 pro bono heroes, who have between them carried out 6,500 hours of pro bono work nationally during the past 12 months. If anybody has a non-Latin phrase instead of pro bono, it would be very helpful, because I am stumped for one. Christine Russell Can I tell the Solicitor-General about some pro bono heroes in my constituency? I do not know whether she is aware of this, but the College of Law at Chester runs an excellent pro bono scheme, whereby members of the public receive free legal advice from postgraduate students—under the full supervision of fully qualified staff, I hasten to add. Does she agree that that is a very good example of how we can encourage the next generation of lawyers to appreciate the value and, certainly, the need for pro bono work? The Solicitor-General Absolutely; I agree. The College of Law at Chester has a long and proud history, and it is good that—to use a cruel metaphor—two birds are being killed with one stone: people get much-needed help, and at the same time the younger generation of lawyers start to understand the need for such work and the ethics of the profession into which they are moving. Teesside university near my constituency has a similar scheme. Mr. Anthony Steen (Totnes) (Con) I wonder whether the Solicitor-General is aware that many pro bono lawyers act on behalf of the victims of human trafficking to get money from the traffickers. What my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) has mentioned is the real problem. The Solicitor-General may be aware from meetings with the Director of Public Prosecutions—otherwise she will just have to accept it from me—that most traffickers have immense amounts of money outside the jurisdiction. That is why most of the police raids never find money. What can she do to extend the jurisdiction, so that traffickers pay the victims whom they traffic? The Solicitor-General The hon. Gentleman deserves 11 out of 10 for his ingenuity in linking that question about trafficking to pro bono work. I heartily congratulate him. Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con) Scot-free. The Solicitor-General Very good—the traffickers are getting away scot-free; a Conservative Front Bencher has come to the rescue of the hon. Member for Totnes (Mr. Steen). The hon. Gentleman made a strong point about the position of overseas resources. As I have said, work is going on to try to tackle the issue. Any assistance or examples that can be provided from the front-line contacts that the hon. Members for Totnes and for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) definitely have through their work on the all-party group on the trafficking of women and children would be gratefully received. House of Commons Commission The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the House of Commons Commission, was asked— Tours of Parliament (Disabled People) Jacqui Smith (Redditch) (Lab) 15. What arrangements are in place to assist disabled people to undertake tours of Parliament. Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I want to draw the House’s attention to your Speaker’s Conference, which will see how the opportunities to increase the number of disabled people in the House may be advanced. I also draw attention to the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Miss Begg) is vice-chairman of your Speaker’s Conference. I turn to the question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Redditch (Jacqui Smith). Improving accessibility and facilities for members, staff and the public is one of the House’s priorities. The visitor route is now largely wheelchair-accessible. Facilities are also available for visually impaired and deaf or hard-of-hearing visitors. A leaflet giving access information to disabled visitors, Members of both Houses and passholders has recently been produced. Jacqui Smith Although I welcome the progress that has been made, I want my hon. Friend to be aware of what happened earlier this year, when I tried to organise a tour of Parliament for the Redditch Deaf Club. My office was told that no one could be assigned to the group because of cost reasons. Furthermore, I understand that there is not full hearing-loop availability throughout the whole tour. I do not think that that is good enough, and I hope that the level of progress will be upped to ensure that all our constituents can access tours of this place, regardless of their disabilities. Sir Stuart Bell I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. Induction loops are fitted in the Public Galleries, Committee Rooms and main Dining Rooms. On sign language, visitor services can provide a sign language tour, if it is booked in advance. Otherwise, the diversity managers can put a Member or visitor in touch with a British sign language interpreter, which would, of course, be at the visitor’s expense. The House is in the process of providing British sign language training for 12 House staff, who will be able to assist visitors at short notice and at no cost to the visitor. I hope that that is a positive response for my right hon. Friend. However, if she has other such matters to raise, I shall be happy to take them up and refer them to the House of Commons Commission. Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con) The right hon. Member for Redditch (Jacqui Smith) has made a good point. The House sounds as if it is moving a little slowly on these matters. The Parliament of our country, having passed Disability Discrimination Acts in 1995 and 2005, should be a beacon of accessibility. It should be trying to take a lead and be ahead of other organisations to make sure that every member of our society, whether disabled or non-disabled, has access to our Parliament. Can the hon. Gentleman give me some idea about whether the House of Commons Commission has all that as an objective? Sir Stuart Bell I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. We have, of course, focused very seriously on disabled visitors to the visitor centre. We have provided for their assistance; we have provided facilities; and we have even provided disabled parking. We have provided training for staff to assist disabled visitors, and we have looked at the visitor route as a whole to assess its accessibility. I think that the Commission, on behalf of the House, can say that it has gone a great way towards meeting the demands of the disabled. We are always ready to improve and to listen to suggestions, and we are all trying at every moment of the day to increase these facilities. Leader of the House The Leader of the House was asked— Parliamentary Scrutiny Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con) 16. What recent representations she has received on increasing the time available on the Floor of the House and in Committee for hon. Members to scrutinise legislation. Mr. Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con) 20. What recent representations she has received on increasing the time available on the Floor of the House and in Committee for hon. Members to scrutinise legislation. The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the House of Commons (Barbara Keeley) My right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House receives representations on this issue from time to time— Mr. Speaker Order. May I interrupt the hon. Lady momentarily? I think that the question is to be grouped—am I right? Barbara Keeley I will start again. My right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House receives representations on this issue from time to time. The Committee on the Reform of the House of Commons and the Procedure Committee are currently considering the timetabling of business. Philip Davies Does the Minister realise that many people are sick to the back teeth of many important decisions being taken in this House without any proper debate or consideration? Given that the decisions of this place affect people’s lives and livelihoods, does she not agree that the timetable for debates should be there to facilitate comprehensive scrutiny of legislation, not for the convenience of her and her Back Benchers? Barbara Keeley With permission, Mr. Speaker, I will answer both these questions together. [Interruption.] I am answering the first question. Mr. Speaker Order. If there is confusion, let it be dispelled once and for all. This question is grouped with Question 20. Barbara Keeley There have been a number of measures to increase the quality of scrutiny, but we are clearly interested in following up any new recommendations that come forward from the two Committees that are looking into the matter. In terms of measures that have made a big difference, pre-legislative scrutiny has taken place on, for instance, the Constitutional Renewal Bill and the Marine and Coastal Access Bill. Evidence taking in Public Bill Committees has greatly improved Bills such as the Equality Bill. However, there is always a balance between the scrutiny of Government Bills and debates on other Bills. We are awaiting recommendations from the Committees, and we will consider any ideas that come forward with great interest. Mr. Turner I am very grateful for the Minister’s reply. However, can we not have at least a minimum time for Report stage and Third Reading—perhaps by using these effectively empty Thursdays after lunch, for example? Barbara Keeley I have to say that in the current environment a defence debate is not an empty debate to be holding on a Thursday afternoon. There are vital issues involved, and when the usual channels—the business managers—consider those issues there is never any suggestion of moving defence debates or swapping them round with anything else, which is quite right in the current environment. That is not a fair comment from the hon. Gentleman at all. As I said in response to the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), the issue is under considerable review—hon. Members are contributing to the discussion and debate—and we are only a few weeks away from having recommendations in a report. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op) May I suggest that it is not necessarily a case of making more time available but of making better use of the time earmarked for debate? In my 12 and a half years on these Benches and nine years on the Chairmen’s Panel, it has seemed to me that during proceedings in Committee or on the Floor of the House there has been an increasing tendency for Front-Bench speakers on both sides to filibuster to fill the time available instead of letting Back Benchers in. Can we give more powers to those on the Chairmen’s Panel, and indeed encourage the Speaker himself, who has made a brilliant start in this respect, to clamp down on filibustering to allow more time for debate? Barbara Keeley I will answer that question very briefly, as is only fair regarding somebody who was Back Bencher of the year. I would not want to stray into issues of chairing sittings, but Front-Bench speakers will have heard what has been said. It is perhaps up to you, Mr. Speaker, to remind Front Benchers of that duty. Mr. Shailesh Vara (North-West Cambridgeshire) (Con) Over the past 18 months, numerous Bills have passed through Committee and Report stage without any debate on selected amendments or, as is often the case, with new clauses put forward by the Government at the last minute. As we have just heard, there is deep concern on both sides of the House that important legislation such as the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008, the Planning Act 2008 and the Coroners and Justice Bill has gone through without proper scrutiny. Such practice simply leads to bad laws, so will the hon. Lady undertake to review the automatic use of programme motions, which is so crucial to this whole debate and therefore allow proper scrutiny of important legislation? Barbara Keeley I have to say that the programming is agreed on all sides. [Interruption.] Yes, it is. I can only refer back to my previous answer and say that I understand that Members are impatient on this issue, but it is being considered at the moment. We will have recommendations from the Select Committee on the Reform of the House of Commons in a few weeks’ time, and we will consider them when they come forward. Ministerial Statements Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) 17. What steps she is taking to ensure that details of ministerial statements are not given to the media before they are made to the House. The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the House of Commons (Barbara Keeley) My right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House and I believe strongly in the principle laid down and followed by successive Governments that key announcements should be made first to Parliament. The ministerial code states: “When Parliament is in session, the most important announcements of Government policy should be made in the first instance, in Parliament.” Mr. Bone Yesterday when we had Prime Minister’s questions, the Press Gallery was overflowing and every word was being listened to, because the press did not know what would happen. When the Prime Minister made a very important statement on Afghanistan the Press Gallery cleared, because the press knew in advance what was in that statement. That is wholly unacceptable. I remind the Leader of the House that in a few months’ time she may be Leader of the Opposition, when she might take a different view on the leaking of statements. Barbara Keeley Every time we get into this debate, we are really talking about things that the media are doing. They research stories, come into the House to pick up a few details from a statement and then rush out. It is not reasonable to assume in every case that there have been leaks. If the hon. Gentleman knows of specific instances or has specific evidence or proof, I am sure that the Leader of the House would be interested to hear about it. Mr. Nigel Dodds (Belfast, North) (DUP) Can the House be told whether there has ever been an instance, either in this Parliament or previously, of any Minister or Secretary of State being sanctioned in any way for having breached the House’s rules in relation to ministerial statements or leaks? Has any sanction ever been applied? Barbara Keeley We are straying into issues that are predominantly for you, Mr. Speaker. Certainly if you felt very strongly about that you could allow an urgent question. I am not personally aware of any cases. Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD) Is not the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) absolutely right? The problem starts at the top. I do not want to give the Deputy Leader of the House a mission impossible, but the Prime Minister must desist from making premature statements as he did at the beginning of the week, if she wants an example, on the sale of assets. He made a statement outside the House without consulting local government or anybody else beforehand. We then had to ask a question, which you, Mr. Speaker, very kindly accepted as an urgent question. We then got not the Prime Minister, not the Chancellor of the Exchequer but the Chief Secretary to the Treasury—not the organ grinder, not the monkey but the monkey’s assistant—to tell the House what the Prime Minister had said. Is that acceptable? The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet Harman) indicated dissent. Barbara Keeley No, that is not acceptable! I made the point in my earlier response that it is the most important announcements of Government policy that are covered. It is not the case that every single thing announced by the Government has to be announced to Parliament first. There is an interplay between the oral statements that we schedule and the urgent questions that you allow, Mr. Speaker, and that will be satisfactory for the future. Select Committee Chairmen Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con) 18. What recent discussions she has had on proposals to reform the procedures for the selection of Select Committee Chairmen. The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the House of Commons (Barbara Keeley) We will consider those matters further with the report from the Select Committee on the Reform of the House of Commons—to which I keep referring—which is due in a few weeks. Clearly, the alternative to Committees selecting their Chairs would be election by the House, probably by secret ballot. There are difficulties with that which need to be considered—I hope that the Committee is considering them. We would not want to be in a position where the majority party filled all the vacancies. We want a geographic balance and a gender balance, which is important on Committees. We will of course, consider any recommendations that are made. House of Commons Commission The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the House of Commons Commission, was asked— Emissions Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) (LD) 19. If the House of Commons Commission will make it its policy to reduce carbon dioxide emissions from the House of Commons part of the parliamentary estate by 10 per cent. by 2010; and if he will make a statement. Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab) The House of Commons Commission will consider the matter at its meeting on 19 October. A study quantifying potential short, medium and long-term carbon savings is scheduled to be completed by the end of November. We will then be able to set meaningful, robust and deliverable targets for 2010-11. Simon Hughes I am grateful for that answer and to you, Mr. Speaker, for referring my request to you to the House of Commons Commission. Very practical things could be done immediately and make a significant difference—for example, turning off the annunciators, which were on throughout the recess, thus consuming energy, and ensuring that television screens go off at the end of the evening and are not on stand-by. We could save an enormous amount by immediate action. Will the hon. Gentleman please view that as urgent and something that can be delivered this year? Sir Stuart Bell I know that the hon. Gentleman is a member of the 10:10 carbon campaign—that is public knowledge. The campaign includes 24,000 individuals, 1,000 businesses, 200 educational facilities and 450 organisations. We welcome individual contributions to that scheme. Only with concerted effort on the part of Members and staff from both Houses and PICT to tackle individual behaviour, business practices, equipment and infrastructure will it be feasible to achieve the 10 per cent. reduction in Parliament. On my original point, the matter comes before the Commission on Monday. Leader of the House The Leader of the House was asked— Equality Bill Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD) 21. What representations she has received on further parliamentary scrutiny of the Equality Bill; and if she will make a statement. The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the House of Commons (Barbara Keeley) My right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House and I have received representations on the Equality Bill, including those from the hon. Gentleman. Dr. Harris The Leader of the House has given assurances, which we accept at face value, from the Dispatch Box in business questions that there will be negotiation about how a considerable number of issues that have been tabled for debate on Report can be fitted in. The Deputy Leader of the House believes that programming is agreed across the parties. At what point does she think that the discussions will begin? Will she urge her colleagues to begin them as soon as possible? Barbara Keeley I have spoken to the Bill Minister, my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General, who is still giving close consideration to the many matters that were debated in the Committee that considered the Equality Bill. We do not yet have a definite date in mind for the later stages, but I will bring the matter to the attention of my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House. House of Commons Commission The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the House of Commons Commission, was asked— Special Adviser David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op) 22. What procedures were used to recruit Mr. Speaker’s special adviser. Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) Mr. Speaker’s special adviser was engaged via a contract for services, not an employment contract, under the House’s normal procurement arrangements. David Taylor I ask the question according the maxim, “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”—Juvenal’s famous phrase. Will the Chairman of the House of Commons Commission or the person acting for him state how the Speaker’s arrangements will be kept under supervision by Parliament when the Speaker—in whom I have confidence—chairs the Commission? Sir Stuart Bell I congratulate my hon. Friend on being Back Bencher of the year. Clearly, the House has all sorts of supervisory methods, procedures and actions, and I am sure that our rules and any supervision that is required in relation to the Speaker will be handled by the Commission We welcome the appointment, which is very important for the Speaker, enabling him to continue to carry out the programme that he announced to the House when he ran for Speaker. The appointment is therefore important to the House’s future development, and we should all welcome it. Mr. Andrew Mackay (Bracknell) (Con) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the appointment of a special adviser to the Speaker should be exactly the same as such appointments to Ministers? It is a very personal appointment and it should not go through other procedures. As someone who knows Mr. Tim Hames professionally, I can think of no better person for the appointment. Sir Stuart Bell Yes, we all know Mr. Tim Hames from his days at The Times and welcome his crossing over from one island to another—I shall say no more than that. It is a good appointment, the decision was carefully taken, and we welcome him to the House. He will begin his duties on 3 November. Leader of the House The Leader of the House was asked— Parliamentary Scrutiny Mr. John Baron (Billericay) (Con) 23. What recent representations she has received on increasing the time available on the Floor of the House and in Committee for hon. Members to scrutinise legislation. The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the House of Commons (Barbara Keeley) I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer that I gave some moments ago to the hon. Members for Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner). Mr. Baron Will the Minister address this matter seriously and urgently? Answers to written questions show that between 1997 and 2000, for each page of primary legislation, there were 14 minutes of debating time on the Floor of the House. In the three Sessions ending in 2006, that figure had halved to seven minutes. We need either to increase the amount of time we have to scrutinise legislation, or to introduce less but better legislation. Barbara Keeley Averages are perhaps not the best way to look at this matter. I looked at recent Bill Committees, including the Equality Bill. It had six hours of debate on Second Reading, seven hours of evidence taking and 38 hours of scrutiny sessions in Committee—a total of 51 hours—and it will have further time on Report. Before that, there was extensive written consultation, which brought in 4,000 responses. It is an excellent Bill, and there has been a great deal of scrutiny.