National Crime Agency

Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
2.  What recent discussions she has had with the Justice Minister of the Northern Ireland Executive on the remit of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland.

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
My most recent discussion with the Justice Minister concerning the remit of the National Crime Agency took place on 9 October. The NCA will provide  support and expertise to partners in Northern Ireland in a number of areas. We are keen to extend its remit to cover crime falling within devolved responsibilities, if agreement can be reached on this within the Northern Ireland Executive.

Paul Goggins
Does the Secretary of State agree with my reading of yesterday’s debate in the Assembly that there is a willingness to explore a way forward on this issue, and will she therefore facilitate urgent discussions between Home Office Ministers, the Justice Minister and the political parties in Northern Ireland to ensure that the NCA, with proper accountability and in partnership with the Police Service of Northern Ireland, can get on and do its job properly?

Mrs Villiers
I can give the right hon. Gentleman that undertaking. He assesses the current situation correctly. There is a genuine willingness to reach a solution across the political parties in Northern Ireland. Further discussions with the Justice Minister and Home Office Ministers would be a good idea, and I will try to facilitate them as soon as possible.

Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
I thank the Secretary of State for acknowledging the progress on understandings about accountability and primacy that have affected this issue, but will she also address the concerns that we have put to her directly about MI5 potentially using and abusing the future role of the NCA—as it abused the role of the Serious Organised Crime Agency—in nefarious ways and ways that have affected the performance and perception of the PSNI?

Mrs Villiers
The Home Secretary has always been clear that she will make every effort to ensure that the NCA’s role in Northern Ireland is completely consistent with the devolved settlement on policing and justice and the primacy of the Chief Constable. She has made a number of concessions along those lines to provide that assurance, and she and her colleagues at the Home Office are keen to continue the discussion on how to provide the reassurance asked for by the Social Democratic and Labour party and others in Northern Ireland.

Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
May I welcome the new shadow Secretary of State to his post and wish the outgoing shadow Secretary of State well in his new post? I look forward to working with the hon. Member for Bury South (Mr Lewis) in the same way as I did with his predecessor.

Will the Secretary of State cut to the chase and tell us the estimated cost, in lost revenue to the Treasury and human misery, of the decision by Sinn Fein and the SDLP to block the full establishment of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland?

Mrs Villiers
The NCA’s current remit in Northern Ireland will provide useful assistance on criminal matters that fall within the responsibilities that have not been devolved, such as fuel smuggling, international smuggling of drugs and firearms. The NCA will also be able to provide advice and assistance on matters within the devolved sphere, such as child protection. However, it is important for Northern Ireland’s political parties to look carefully at this issue. I believe that extending the NCA’s remit to devolved matters would considerably  assist the fight against serious crime in Northern Ireland, and I hope that the current discussions result in an agreement on these matters.

Mr Dodds
Does the Secretary of State agree with the assessment of the Northern Ireland Justice Minister—who has been quite unequivocal in his denunciation of the current situation—in which he said:

“We are effectively asking some law enforcement agencies to operate with one arm tied behind their backs”?

This is an outrageous situation that can be of benefit only to drug smugglers, human traffickers, cyber-criminals, fuel launderers and all the rest. Apart from convening talks, can the Secretary of State tell us what the Government will do to ensure that the citizens and taxpayers of Northern Ireland are not subject to this criminal empire building?

Mrs Villiers
A huge amount of work has been done to provide the reassurance that Northern Ireland political parties have asked for on consistency with the police and justice settlement. Productive work has also been done between the Home Office and the Justice Minister on transitional arrangements—for example, on the cases that SOCA had taken on that can be continued by the NCA within the provisions for the current purposes. We will continue to work hard to make the case for the NCA’s full operation in Northern Ireland as a potent fighting force to bring to justice those responsible for organised crime and other serious criminal activities.

Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)
I strongly support the Secretary of State’s efforts to persuade all those involved, including in her discussions with the parties in Northern Ireland, to ensure that the remit of the National Crime Agency is extended. Whatever the circumstances surrounding the hesitancy about that from Belfast so far, everybody will want to see every possible effort made to tackle these issues—particularly after two executions attributed to dissident republicans last week and 12 security threats recently—and she ought to make sure that happens.

Mrs Villiers
I agree and will continue to do everything possible to make the case for the extension of the NCA’s activities in Northern Ireland. It is also worth bearing it in mind that there were some ways in which the legislation on the NCA would have strengthened accountability in Northern Ireland, because it would have extended the remit of the police ombudsman to proceeds of crime matters, which are not currently covered by the policing and justice settlement. In many ways, the legislation, which does not currently have agreement in Northern Ireland, would have enabled us to strengthen accountability on police activities in Northern Ireland.

Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
13.  The Secretary of State cannot be happy with the current situation relating to asset recovery, which affects England, Scotland and Wales as much as it affects Northern Ireland. The situation has been known about for at least nine months and it has been raised in the Committee, but it has still not been resolved. Will she take personal ownership of convening a meeting with the political parties—not just with the Justice Minister—to get the matter resolved?

Mrs Villiers
The right hon. Gentleman is right to say that the proceeds of crime is one of the most serious issues resulting from the gap left by the failure so far to agree a legislative consent motion. I am keen to convene as many meetings as possible to get the matter resolved, but the reality is that the devolution settlement gives the Executive a choice and, unless there is consensus across the political parties in Northern Ireland, that choice will be to reject the extension of the NCA’s remit. I will continue to make the case for that extension because I think that the NCA will be an asset to fighting crime in Northern Ireland.