Oral Answers To Questions Ministry Of Labour School Leavers, Ilford (Industrial Training) 1. Mr. Iremonger asked the Minister of Labour what information he has concerning the operation of the Industrial Training Act as it affects school leavers and young persons generally in Ilford. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mrs. Shirley Williams) It is impossible to judge the precise effect of the Act; but, comparing 1965 with the previous year, a much higher proportion of boys entering the engineering and construction industries in the Ilford area did so as apprentices. Shop Stewards Committees (Voluntary Donations) 2. Mr. Iremonger asked the Minister of Labour whether he will introduce legislation to stop the practice of paying voluntary donations to shop stewards committees by workers who have not taken part in unofficial strikes. The Minister of Labour (Mr. R. J. Gunter) No, Sir. Mr. Iremonger Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the recent events leading to the seamen's strike have shown that when the chips are down it is not people of good will like himself and responsible trade unionists who call the tune, but the Communists who run things on the shop floor? Mr. Gunter I was asked to introduce legislation to stop the practice of paying voluntary donations and I am not quite sure how that is relevant to the seamen's strike. Baking Industry (Report) 3. Mr. Patrick Jenkin asked the Minister of Labour what steps have been taken to implement the recommendation contained in paragraph 27(i) of the Ninth Report, Interim, of the National Board for Prices and Incomes with regard to the suggested revision of the agreement between the Bakers' Union and the Federation of Wholesale and Multiple Bakers, so as to provide throughout the week for a pattern of working hours more clearly attuned to the demand for bread as it varies from day to day. Mr. Gunter The National Joint Committee of the Baking Industry in England and Wales is considering this recommendation. Mr. Jenkin Is it not about time that progress was made in the matter, bearing in mind that the National Board for Prices and Incomes itself said that the payment made to the bakers was in recognition of a change in working practice? When is there going to be a change in working practice? Mr. Gunter I agree that there is urgency about the matter. Both sides are considering it, and I am inviting them to hasten their consideration. Industrial Courts Of Inquiry (Witnesses) 4. Mr. Gurden asked the Minister of Labour if he will introduce legislation to empower himself to secure the attendance of witnesses at courts of inquiry set up under the Industrial Courts Act, 1919. Mr. Gunter Section 4 of the Industrial Courts Act already provides for this. Mr. Gurden Can the Minister tell us why, in the Jack Scamp Report of the Solihull inquiry, Mr. Alan Law was not reported for his deliberate absence at the inquiry? Does the Minister not realise that Mr. Law is the real nigger in the woodpile of the troubles in the Midlands? Mr. Gunter I am not responsible for the Report published by Mr. Scamp, but the incident to which the hon. Member refers was reported to me by Mr. Scamp and consultations and discussions have taken place with the Acting General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers' Union. Registered Unemployed (Survey) 5. Mr. Ridley asked the Minister of Labour if he will carry out an investigation into the exact circumstances of those registered as unemployed at a particular time, to see how many are retired, how many are on holiday, and how many are not genuinely seeking work. Mrs. Shirley Williams Our Department recently carried out a survey of workers registered as unemployed the main purpose of which was to assess their prospects of securing employment. An initial report on this survey, including information on attitudes to work, was published in the April issue of the Ministry of Labour Gazette. Mr. Ridley I am grateful to the hon. Lady for sending me a copy of that survey. It was most revealing. Would she not agree that the figures are beginning to bear less and less relationship to the actual state and number of people who are looking for work? Does she not feel that if those different categories were excluded it would help to show what the real figures are? Will she consider again adopting the solution that I put forward? Mrs. Williams I have noted the point in the hon. Member's Question. It is our view that these are correct figures, in the sense that they represent people who are genuinely seeking work. But he will recognise that the survey showed that some groups within these categories find it difficult to get work owing to age and, in particular, some physical disability. Construction Industry (Labour-Only Sub-Contracting) 6. Mr. Heffer asked the Minister of Labour if he will bring in legislation to control the type of contract known as "labour-only" in the building industry; and if he will make a statement. 18. Mrs. Renée Short asked the Minister of Labour what proposals he has to eliminate the growing problem of labour-only sub-contracting in the construction and civil engineering industries. Mr. Gunter I have recently discussed labour-only sub-contracting, with particular reference to construction, with my National Joint Advisory Council, and I shall continue to keep a close watch on the situation. I do not think it would be practicable to deal with this problem by legislation or by Government action. Mr. Heffer Would my right hon. Friend think again about the last point in his Answer in relation to legislation, because it is time that some legislation was brought in? These labour-only contracts lead to all sorts of pernicious practices, and it is time that they were stamped out. Mr. Gunter I can only repeat that I do not feel that legislation will do what is required. This situation has arisen most sharply because of the shortage of labour, and it is because of that that I doubt very much whether legislation would stamp out the practice. Mrs. Short Is my right hon. Friend aware that the payroll tax proposals are encouraging this most undesirable practice? Is he aware that builders are being encouraged to sack their building workers and take them on as labour-only sub-contractors? Is he also aware that if the practice extends any further into civil engineering, public safety may well be at risk because of the lack of supervision under this type of contract? It is time that he took action. Mr. Gunter That sounds like my wife! I am fully aware of the allegations that are made about the problems arising from labour-only sub-contracting. I can only repeat that discussions are taking place and will continue to take place with the union leaders and with C.B.I. representatives on this issue. Mr. Boyd-Carpenter Is not the hon. Lady right in suggesting that the Selective Employment Tax will very much encourage the spread of this practice? Mr. Gunter The right hon. Gentleman will have seen the statement which has been issued by the employers on this matter, and there is no evidence at all that this practice will be increased because of this new tax. Building Industry (Trade Unions) 7. Mr. Heffer asked the Minister of Labour whether it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government, after consultation with the building trade unions, to seek to develop closer amalgamation amongst them; and if he will make a statement. Mr. Gunter This is primarily for the unions themselves, but the Government welcome the action taken by the Trades Union Congress and the building unions to promote amalgamations. Mr. Heffer Will my right hon. Friend pursue this matter a little further and endeavour to get the unions to agree to an industrialised building craftsman, which would be a new type of craftsman in the building industry and which would be a great boon for the type of craftsmen with whom we are concerned. Mr. Gunter I am always trying to persuade the unions to do something or other, but really this is a matter primarily for the unions themselves. As my hon. Friend knows, we have discussed this over and over again at headquarter level, and I feel that it would be far better if it were left to the industry. Miss Lai Kit-Ip 8. Mr. Onslow asked the Minister of Labour why a voucher for entry to the United Kingdom has not been granted to Miss Lai Kit-ip of Hong Kong. Mrs. Shirley Williams There is a waiting list of applications and this one will be dealt with in its turn. Mr. Onslow Is the hon. Lady aware that this application has now been withdrawn? The lady in question would presumably have been able to come to this country without difficulty or delay if she had not been a Commonwealth citizen. Will the hon. Lady look again at the law and its effects in this sort of case? Mrs. Williams I was not aware that the voucher application had been withdrawn, but the hon. Gentleman will realise that the arrangements for Commonwealth immigrants and those for aliens coming to this country for a short time are different, and each one must take his turn. Private Employment Agencies 9. Mr. Kenneth Lewis asked the Minister of Labour what effect there has been on the work of employment exchanges by the development of private employment agencies. Mrs. Shirley Williams As far as can be assessed the effect is probably only marginal at this stage because the established private agencies tend to specialise in certain white-collar categories of employment. Mr. Lewis Has the Minister or the hon. Lady read a book which has been published by the Employment Agents Federation on employment agencies which says that the services provided by the local employment exchanges under her Ministry are totally ineffective? How does the Minister propose to answer this, and how does he propose to make the employment agencies more effective? Mrs. Williams I have read the book, and I regard it as a mildly prejudiced source of authorship. However, as the hon. Gentleman may know, attempts are being made to improve the service provided by employment exchanges. The Department, as announced in this House, intends to start the occupational guidance system and to improve the numbers and the training of staff in the employment exchanges. Bmc Factory, Cowley (Incident) 10. Mr. Hornby asked the Minister of Labour following his investigation into the Cowley trial, if he is aware of its effect on the people principally involved, including the resignation of one; what action he has taken; and if he will make a statement. Mr. Gunter I have seen reports about this and I sympathise deeply with any workers adversely affected. As the House knows, I immediately asked the trade unions concerned to make urgent inquiries. They reported to me that while the incident had been exaggerated, they were issuing circulars emphasising to their members the importance of observing union rules. Mr. Hornby Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Chairman of the Oxford Branch of the T.G.W.U. is reported as saying that it would be a great pity if the whole incident were brought up again? Will the right hon. Gentleman dissociate himself from that statement and make it clear to the House and to the country as a whole that the sort of intimidation which apparently occurred in this case is very much a matter of public concern, and will he tell the House what action he has taken in this case to try to get a better standard of conduct in matters of this sort? Mr. Gunter The hon. Gentleman knows that this was immediately brought to the attention of the trade unions, who were called to the Ministry of Labour. They in turn issued instructions and regretted what they still maintain were certain exaggerated elements. The hon. Gentleman also knows that the papers were sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions, and that the Attorney-General said in the House that a prosecution would not take place. Mr. Ridley Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that there should be some sort of appeal court to which cases of this sort can appeal so that the public can be certain that where a judgment is being given it is being given by completely outside, unbiased persons? Mr. Gunter The nub of the question is one that we have discussed before in this House, namely, union rules and whether they should be scrutinised by another body. This is one reason why I attach great importance to the mass of evidence which is being submitted to the Royal Commission on this issue. I would rather leave it there, and when we have the guidelines from the Royal Commission we shall do what is right. Railwaymen (Pay And Productivity) 11. Mr. Marten asked the Minister of Labour whether he has yet started the main talks about relating pay to productivity in the case of the railwaymen's pay problems, which were discussed by the Prime Minister with the unions in mid-March. Mr. Gunter The first meeting was held under my chairmanship on 10th May. Mr. Marten As this has taken a long time since the original meeting with the Prime Minister—about ten weeks—when is the actual examination of the pay structure going to start as opposed to a consideration of the agenda? Secondly, can the right hon. Gentleman say who will be the chairman of the examination, and whether it will include liner trains in its consideration? Mr. Gunter I am sure that the problem of liner trains, unless it is happily settled before, will be part of the discussion. On the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, perhaps I might point out that the General Election intervened and there was time only for consultation as to representation and to what form the agenda should take. It was agreed at the first meeting that I had with them that an examination of pay and work structure should be put in hand as quickly as possible and that measures to increase efficiency should be related to that. I hope that the next meeting, at which we shall have further documents and further reflections, will take place in about a month's time. Mr. Manuel Reverting to the question asked by the hon. Gentleman, can my right hon. Friend tell the House how he relates productivity to the work done by men in some of the main railway grades, for example, a man working in a signal box or as a locomotive driver? In the latter case, is it decided by the number of carriages his engine pulls? Mr. Gunter This is part of the pattern of the whole wage structure of the country, not only the railways. It is made difficult by the fact that some men can be assessed for productivity whereas others, who are doing equally responsible work, cannot. This is one of the factors with which we are trying to come to terms. Occupational Hygiene Hazards (Factory Survey) 12. Mrs. McKay asked the Minister of Labour when the report of the sample surveying of factories, now being investigated to establish the magnitude of occupational hygiene hazards, which was to have been completed in spring 1966, will be completed. Mrs. Shirley Williams The results of the sample survey were presented to my right hon. Friend's Industrial Health Advisory Committee last week. An Article about the survey and its results will be published in the Ministry of Labour Gazette. Mrs. McKay Will my hon. Friend say what initiative the Minister has taken to assist the cost of providing protective services for workers at risk, or will there be a subsequent delay on the issue of costs? Mrs. Williams I think my hon. Friend will be glad to know that the occupational hygiene services of Her Majesty's Factory Inspectorate are being expanded, which means that the whole cost is born by the Government, and as a first step a new senior post is being created in the Factory Inspectorate, which will be in charge of the new hygiene occupational unit of the Ministry. Selective Employment Tax 13. Mr. Dalyell asked the Minister of Labour when he proposes to introduce his Bill on the repayment of Selective Employment Tax; and whether he will provide special consideration to firms taking on men over 55 years of age in the mining industry who have been declared redundant. Mrs. Shirley Williams On the first part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the business statement made by the Leader of the House on 12th May. As regards the second part, I cannot add to what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in the course of the Budget debate. Mr. Dalyell Should there be a reluctance to employ such people, may we have an assurance of action? Mrs. Williams We believe that the S.E.T. should encourage the employment in manufacturing industry of miners of the age group referred to, and this should deal with part of the problem which exists. 14. Mr. Peter Mills asked the Minister of Labour to what extent the Selective Employment Tax will affect the number of unemployed in the South-West, particularly in North and West Devon, in view of the number of part-time workers employed in the holiday trade. Mrs. Shirley Williams It is too soon to attempt to estimate the effect of the tax on employment in particular areas. The Government will keep a close watch on its operation throughout the country. Mr. Mills This is all very well, but the Minister knows that this will have serious consequences in the South-West, causing grave unemployment. May I ask the Minister what can be done to help this very real problem, as there is very little alternative work in some of these areas? Mrs. Williams The hon. Gentleman may be aware that the unemployment figures in the South-West have fallen considerably under the present Government and their immediate predecessors. I would point out once again that assistance is being given both by investment incentives as proposed by the Board of Trade, and by additional incentives to manufacturing employment. This should assist the South-West, just as it will assist other hard-hit regions. Mr. Nott Is the hon. Lady aware that tourism is Cornwall's second largest industry? Investment incentives for tourism have been abolished, and this will have a most serious effect on Cornwall where a large number of people are already unemployed. Mrs. Williams The hon. Gentleman may be aware that many of the employees in the tourist industry are part-time temporary workers. The hon. Gentleman may also be aware that at the present time there are more vacancies for employment in the South-West than there are people seeking employment. Mr. Pardoe In view of the serious effect of the tax in the South-West, and particularly in Cornwall, will the Minister make representations to her right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to ensure that there are differential rates for development areas? Mrs. Williams I repeat that the Government will bear in mind the effect of this tax on the various regions. I also repeat that the White Paper on investment incentives gives an opportunity to development areas which is quite new and which will have a great impact on their prosperity. Dr. David Owen I welcome the remarks made by my hon. Friend, and I agree that she has done much to help the South-West, but we feel that there should be some regional flexibility in the application of the Selective Employment Tax. We shall be grateful if she will bear this point in mind. Mrs. Williams I thank my hon. Friend for what he has said. I can assure him that we will bear this in mind. Dock Labour Scheme 16. Mr. Alan Lee Williams asked the Minister of Labour if he will now announce the composition of his committee of inquiry into the amendments required to the Dock Labour Scheme; and when he expects it to report. Mr. Gunter I have appointed Sir George Honeyman to conduct this inquiry. He will begin his inquiry on 9th June, but I cannot say at this stage when he will be ready to report. Mr. Williams I am sure that my right hon. Friend will realise that we are relieved that this committee of inquiry, under the chairmanship of Sir George Honeyman, is now to get under way. I hope that it will resolve the difficulties which have led to the setting up of this inquiry. Manual Workers 17. Mr. Winnick asked the Minister of Labour whether he will introduce legislation to ensure that manual workers are placed on the staff of concerns with full staff facilities and conditions. Mr. Gunter This is a development which I should like to see extended, but I do not think legislation would be appropriate. Mr. Winnick Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the present barrier in industry which exists between manual and non-manual workers is quite wrong and outdated? Does not he feel that it places manual workers at a grave disadvantage? Is he aware that in certain factories in the staff canteen coffee is served for lunch, whereas in the manual workers' canteen tea is served? Mr. Gunter I do not like coffee. I am fully aware of the objectionable practices which sometimes arise, but they are diminishing. Staff status is becoming a more important question. But I do not think that this matter would be appropriate for legislation. How I would legislate, I am not sure. Trade unions and employers are at one in this matter. I am sure that my right hon. Friend knows—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."] I am finishing now. Not all manual workers want staff status. Sir Knox Cunningham Will the Minister tell us whether he personally prefers tea or coffee? Mr. Gunter Tea. Mr. Dickens Does the Minister agree that the time has come for the Ministry of Labour to take the initiative in this field and point out fairly the advantages being gained from the public sector, through electricity, by the private sector? Mr. Gunter I agree, and I am glad to know that trade unions and employers are trying to come to terms in this matter. I do not think that legislation is the way to do it. Aviation Industry (Skilled Labour) 19. Mr. Onslow asked the Minister of Labour what estimate he has formed of the loss of skilled labour from the aviation industry since October, 1964. Mrs. Shirley Williams Provisional estimates show that the number of employees in the aircraft industry fell by 13,000 between October 1964 and March 1966. I regret that figures are not available to show how many of these were skilled men. Mr. Onslow Will the Minister tell the House what progress is being made with the investigation that the Government are supposed to be undertaking on the reemployment of these men in other work? When will the results of their investigations be published? Will she give an undertaking that men who do not work for sub-contractors such as Comprehensive Designing Incorporated will be excluded, since their skills are now being bought by the American aircraft industry? Mrs. Williams On the first part of the hon. Member's supplementary question, we have information about approximately 3,866 workers discharged as redundant on the cancellation of Government contracts. Of these 732 went to other aircraft work, 1,694 went to other industries in the vehicle engineering group and 1,140 went to a variety of other industries. In almost all cases they were employed on skilled work if they were themselves skilled men. In answer to the second part of the question, perhaps the hon. Member will put down a Question on the Order Paper. Mr. Marten How many of these people are now employed by the Americans? Mrs. Williams I do not have that information at the moment. If the hon. Member will put down a Question I will attempt to answer it. Redundancy Payments Scheme 21. Sir Richard Glyn asked the Minister of Labour what plans he has for seeking to increase the employer's contribution to the redundancy payments scheme; and if he will make a statement. Mr. Gunter None, Sir. Sir Richard Glyn Is the right hon. Gentleman assuring the House that there will be no increase in redundancy as a result of the Selective Employment Tax, or that the cost of the increased redundancy will be borne by Treasury subvention? Mr. Gunter I am asked what plans the Ministry has to increase redundancy payments, and there are none. As for the Selective Employment Tax, we know that one object is to encourage economy in the use of labour in the service industries. It is difficult to foresee what the effect will be. Mr. Hugh Fraser Will not the Minister consult his colleague, the Chancellor, in order to see whether some of the money which at the moment is coming from the tax should be given not to employers in the manufacturing Industries but to employers in other industries, in order to ease the burden of redundancy, so as to make this scheme more effective than it looks like being. Mr. Gunter I will certainly draw attention to what the right hon. Gentleman has said. Mr. Peter Walker Has the Chancellor changed his views? He interrupted me during my speech and said this was not the object of the tax. Mr. Gunter One of the objectives is to ensure greater economy in the service industries so as to get more men into the manufacturing industries. All I would say is that it is too early to judge the effects of the tax. Salaries 24. Mr. Biffen asked the Minister of Labour how many claims for increased salaries are outstanding; how many of these fall within the income norm of 3–3½ per cent.; and what is the total number of employees involved. Mr. Gunter I know of 23 current claims for increased pay covering a little over 420,000 salaried workers. For most of these workers the claims are not in specific terms and cannot be related to the norm. Mr. Biffen Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether he thinks that it is possible to have these claims related in specific terms, and whether his Ministry will improve its statistical service so that I may have this information? Mr. Gunter It is not a question of improving the statistical service. The hon. Member will know that claims are put in in many and varied forms. Many are specified only after negotiations have started, and the submission of a claim for what in many cases is a substantial amount which is not specified, is not a basis for providing statistical information. Sir K. Joseph Will not this make the proposed early warning legislation rather difficult for the Government? Mr. Gunter I am hoping that they will become more specific. 25. Mr. Biffen asked the Minister of Labour how many salary claims were settled in 1965; how many were within or below the norm of 3–3½ per cent.; how many were in excess of that norm; and what was the total number of employees involved, respectively. Mr. Gunter Sixty-four claims for pay increases or hours reductions covering just under 1½ million salaried workers are known to have been settled in 1965. Because of the complexity of salary scales and structures and the variations within and between scales changes cannot be expressed satisfactorily in terms of a simple percentage. Mr. Biffen Since salaries account for no less than one-third of the wages and salaries figures, does not the Minister think that it is desirable that the Ministry of Labour should publish salaries statistics in no less detail than wage statistics? Mr. Gunter It would be desirable. The difficulty lies in obtaining the information, because—especially in respect of salaries—there are thousands of agreements on an individual basis. It is not like a wage structure. 33. Mr. Higgins asked the Minister of Labour by what absolute and percentage amounts United Kingdom salaries rose in 1965 compared with 1964. Mr. Gunter Between October, 1963 and October, 1964 average salaries of administrative, technical and clerical employees taken together rose by £1 0s. 1d. a week, or 5·6 per cent. Between October, 1964 and October, 1965 the corresponding figures were £1 12s. 6d., or 8·5 per cent. Mr. Higgins Does not this mean that the norm has been exceeded by almost double, or rather more than double? Mr. Gunter I do not think one can draw many deductions from those figures, because they run from October, 1964, to October, 1965, and the Prices and Incomes Board had then been in operation for only six months or so. I am not suggesting that there is not still a great deal to be done in this respect. I hope that 1966 will be a much better year. 34. Mr. Higgins asked the Minister of Labour how much in absolute and percentage terms United Kingdom salaries are expected to increase in 1966 compared with 1965, on the basis of outstanding claims. Mr. Gunter Outstanding claims, many of them expressed in general terms, do not provide a suitable basis for such calculations. Mr. Higgins Would the right hon. Gentleman give the figures for the public sector, which presumably are available? Mr. Gunter Not without notice. Mr. Biffen If these claims exist only in such generalised forms, how can the Minister have very much idea whether or not the incomes policy has the remotest chance of succeeding, in view of the fact that salaries account for no less than one-third of the total wages and salaries bill? Mr. Gunter I agree, but I can only give the figures as we have them. I said in answer to the previous Question that statistics on salary movements are not good. Coal Mines, File (Labour) 26. Mr. William Hamilton asked the Minister of Labour what evidence he has that developing coal mines in Fife are having difficulty in recruiting adequate supplies of labour; and what representations he has received on the matter. Mrs. Shirley Williams I have no evidence that the developing coal mines in Fife are experiencing difficulty in recruiting adequate supplies of labour. I have not received any representations on the matter. Mr. Hamilton Is my hon. Friend aware that the Scottish Coal Board has made representations to the Board of Trade on this matter? Will she give a categorical assurance that if these claims are justified the Government will not cease in their efforts to attract alternative industry into the area and, if need be, that the Coal Board can recruit in the public schools if it is short of labour? Mrs. Williams My hon. Friend will know that the investment incentive plans for areas of high unemployment apply to the area in respect of which he has put down the Question. I wish the Chairman of the National Coal Board the best of luck in the public schools. Sir A. V. Harvey Would the hon. Lady, in conjunction with her right hon. Friend the Minister of Power, consider publishing a White Paper giving the full movements of labour available for these industries, in view of the impact which the discovery of North Sea gas might have on the Coal Board? Mrs. Williams That is largely a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power. Young Persons (Medical Examination) 27. Mr. Scott asked the Minister of Labour whether he will seek power to provide for the medical examination of young persons employed in premises covered by the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act. Mrs. Shirley Williams The recent Report of the Sub-Committee of my right hon. Friend's Industrial Health Advisory Committee recommended that when the Appointed Factory Doctor Service was revised power should be taken to bring within the scope of medical examinations young persons in occupations covered by the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act, 1963. The Government are considering the recommendations of the Report. Factory Doctor Service 28. Mr. Scott asked the Minister of Labour whether he will implement the Report on the Appointed Factory Doctor Service. Mr. Gunter I am, with my colleagues, considering the recommendations of the Report. The opinion of interested bodies should be available within the next few months and will be taken into account in reaching a decision. Mr. Scott Does not the Report draw attention to a grave misuse of doctor power? Will not the Minister consult his right hon. Friend the Minister of Health to see whether some speedy conclusion can be reached in this matter? Mr. Gunter Those consultations are now going on. Dismissal Procedures 31. Mr. Ridley asked the Minister of Labour if he will introduce legislation to provide safeguards against arbitrary dismissal. Mr. Gunter The subject of dismissal procedures is being considered by a Committee of my National Joint Advisory Council. When the Committee reports I shall consider with the Council what action should be taken. Mr. Ridley But the right hon. Gentleman put this in his election manifesto. Has he not worked out the plans to do it before now? Surely this is an urgent necessity. When will the right hon. Gentleman bring in legislation on this subject. Mr. Gunter The hon. Gentleman knows very well that matters of this kind must be discussed with both sides of industry. The National Joint Advisory Council, made up of the C.B.I. and the Trades Union Congress, have been deliberating—they may be slow, but they have been deliberating—on what should be done. When I get their report, we will take action. Mr. Rankin Will this legislation cover General Elections? Mr. Winnick Is my right hon. Friend aware that people are still being dismissed at an hour's notice simply because of active trade union participation at the place of employment? Could he take any steps to try to encourage employers to behave in a more reasonable way? Mr. Gunter I think that the majority of employers behave in a reasonable way, but there are always "bad boys" and cases have been drawn to my attention of this form of dismissal procedure, but the Confederation of British Industry is as anxious as anyone to have a right and proper procedure. Construction Workers, Scotland 32. Mr. Emrys Hughes asked the Minister of Labour to what extent there is a shortage of building construction workers in the west of Scotland; and what steps he is taking to recruit men for essential industry. Mrs. Shirley Williams At the April count in this area there were 707 notified vacancies for workers in the construction industry as against 4,637 unemployed. Any vacancies which cannot be filled immediately by the local employment exchange are circulated to neighbouring offices. For those categories where there is a shortage training is being provided at the Government training centres in the area and the number of training places is being increased from 208 to 256. Mr. Hughes Will the hon. Lady give us an assurance that the new advance factories will not be held up by shortage of construction labour? Is she aware that at present 1,800 construction workers, including 225 carpenters and joiners, are working at the Polaris base at the Gareloch? Does she not think that the Government have their priorities all wrong? Mrs. Williams My hon. Friend may be aware that not only are we increasing, as I have explained, the number of places for trained men, but also that the Construction Industry Training Board has just started its work. We hope that as a result of that work there will be far more openings for young men and women to work in the industry than at present. Earl of Dalkeith Is the hon. Lady aware that the Selective Employment Tax will have a severely damaging effect on the expansion of the construction industry and that this will make Scotland's housing problem, which has already been disastrously bad in the first three months of the year, even worse in the future? Mrs. Williams I think that the hon. Gentleman is perhaps anticipating, without giving time for the situation to develop. We on this side would want to see the facts before making up our minds. Industrial Safety (Training) 36. Mr. Holland asked the Minister of Labour what action his Department is taking to promote the implementation of the advice given by the Central Training Council in September 1965 on the subject of training in industrial safety. Mr. Gunter The Central Training Council's Memorandum No. 2 has been brought to the attention of all industrial training boards, and copies have been widely distributed in industry. Mr. Holland Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the shape of the filing basket into which, very often, paper work finds its way in busy organisations? Can he tell us of positive steps taken in Government training and retraining centres and in the public sector, where I am sure he has a great deal of influence? Mr. Gunter The boards are following the advice of the document about which the hon. Gentleman has spoken. Five of the boards have implemented it, and the others, as they get under way, will be doing exactly what the five have done. Mr. Holland In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Reply, I beg to give notice that I will seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment. Unemployment, Scotland 37. Earl of Dalkeith asked the Minister of Labour whether he will give an estimate of the number of able-bodied women of working age in Scotland who have never registered their names at an employment exchange of his department and are not therefore included in the monthly unemployment figures. Mrs. Shirley Williams I regret that no such estimate can be made. Earl of Dalkeith Is the hon. Lady aware that the Scottish unemployment percentage is about double that of England? There is far more concealed unemployment north of the Border, as is witnessed by the fact that no fewer than 43,000 Scots emigrated last year, which is nearly 10,000 more than the average for the preceding five years. Will she show some grave concern about this concealed unemployment problem? Mrs. Williams The hon. Gentleman may be aware that this Government have not only shown great concern: they have also done something about it. Road Haulage Industry 38. Mr. Kenneth Lewis asked the Minister of Labour if he is satisfied that the conditions listed in paragraph 44 of the National Board for Prices and Incomes' Final Report on Road Haulage Charges will be carried out; by what means he will check that these conditions have been fulfilled; and if he will make a statement. Mr. Gunter I met the two sides of the industry on 27th April and discussed with them the recommendations contained in the Board's Report. I was assured that the Productivity Sub-Committee of the National Negotiating Committee was actively studying ways of improving efficiency in the industry. I am looking to the National Negotiating Committee to give a strong lead to the industry on measures to promote greater efficiency and have arranged to be kept informed of progress. Mr. Lewis Is the Minister aware that this report of the Prices and Incomes Board said that what was required was "immediate"—they used that word—action? The Minister has said that they are studying the matter. Do they intend to act on this and not just to study? Mr. Gunter Yes, Sir. I was satisfied at the meeting which I had with both sides, when they promised me—they gave an undertaking—to have frequent and regular meetings and report to me upon progress. 39. Mr. Bruce-Gardyne asked the Minister of Labour what proposals he has for wider use of recording devices consistent with the recommendation of paragraph 44(v) of the National Board for Prices and Incomes' Final Report on Road Haulage Charges. 40. Mr. Webster asked the Minister of Labour what assurances he obtained from the Transport and General Workers' Union of their co-operation in extending the use of recording devices before confirming the recent Order presented by the Road Haulage Wages Council. Mr. Gunter This is a matter which can only be settled within the industry. The industry's representatives have assured me that the Sub-Committee which has been set up by the National Negotiating Committee to consider ways of improving efficiency will be considering the use which can be made of recording devices along with other forms of work study. Mr. Bruce-Gardyne Yes, but does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it might have been better to delay the approval of the road haulage wage committee's award until there was an assurance that progress would be made? Has he noticed Mr. Aubrey Jones's comments on the wage award which he has now authorised? Mr. Gunter I can only repeat that I had a meeting with both sides at which they assured me that they would deal with this and other matters relating to efficiency and productivity at frequent and regular meetings and would report to me. Mr. Webster Paragraph 46 of the Report says that this is a highly urgent matter. Is it not deplorable that we have not got further than a vague assurance of lip-service to the union before the award was approved? Mr. Gunter Certain of the recommendations, of course, are disputed by both the employers and the workpeople. I gave them my blessing and asked them to report as quickly as was possible. Sir K. Joseph What is the point of referring wage claims to the Prices and Incomes Board if its comments are completely ignored? Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that Mr. Aubrey Jones' Board said in paragraph 19 of its Report: "The proposed settlement makes concessions not in exchange for improvements in productivity but for a promise to talk about productivity"? Mr. Small Is it permissible to make verbatim quotations at Question Time? Mr. Speaker No. The right hon. Gentleman must just give the sense of what has been said. Mr. Gunter The Report also says that certain assurances should be given. Action has been taken. I confirmed the wage council order on the understanding that the industry would get on with the job. Mr. Biffen Does the Minister realise that there will be very considerable interest in seeing how the agreement regarding timing devices is carried out? Can he assure the House that he will keep a check on how these discussions go and will report back to the House stating in detail what progress has been made? Mr. Gunter I hope that the House will not require me to give detailed information about each and every industrial point. All I can say at this stage is that the National Negotiating Committee has taken note and promises me that it will get on with the job. 41. Mr. Nott asked the Minister of Labour what is the present extent of shift-working in the road haulage industry; what have been the developments in shift-working during 1962 to 1965; and what further development in shift-working is expected to occur during 1966. Mr. Gunter Information is not available about developments in shift-working during the years 1962 to 1965 in this industry. I cannot say at present what developments are likely to take place this year, but I have drawn the attention of the industry to the recommendation of the N.B.P.I. on this matter and I shall be keeping in touch with progress on all measures to increase efficiency. Japanese Tyres (Anti-Oxidants) 43. Mrs. Joyce Butler asked the Minister of Labour if he is now satisfied that imported tyres from Japan do not contain anti-oxidants suspected of having carcinogenic properties which might be dangerous to workers working on the reclaimed rubber; and if he will make a statement. Mrs. Shirley Williams My right hon. Friend has made inquiries to acertain whether tyres imported from Japan contain known carcinogenic anti-oxidants, but we have not yet had a reply. Mrs. Butler Is my hon. Friend aware of the widespread medical and industrial concern about the lack of information on these tyres? In view of the Minister's powers and obligation to protect workers from potentially harmful substances, can he take some action to speed up the supply of this information either directly or through another Government Department and prevent the import of these tyres until the information is received? Mrs. Williams My hon. Friend will be glad to know that at present my right hon. Friend is making inquiries to ascertain whether any country from which we import rubber uses carcinogenic antioxidants in the manufacture of their rubber. Superannuation And Pension Contributions (Transferability) 44. Mr. Bidwell asked the Minister of Labour if he will bring in legislation to establish retention of employers' superannuation and pensions contributions and full transferability rights when members of such schemes change employment. Mrs. Williams I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the hon. Members for Somerset, North (Mr. Dean) and Barry (Mr. Gower) on 9th May. Mr. Bidwell Is my hon. Friend aware that the present situation is a serious impediment to the mobility of both wage and salary workers and needs to be urgently changed in the national interest? Mrs. Williams My hon. Friend will find from the reply of 9th May that we are very much aware of the importance of this matter but are at present awaiting the result of the discussions taking place on both sides of industry. We hope that we shall have the result in July. Ship-Repairing Industry (Redundancy Payments) 45. Dame Irene Ward asked the Minister of Labour whether he will now make a statement on the application of the Redundancy Payments Act to the ship-repairing industry. Mrs. Williams I have nothing to add to the answer I gave to the hon. Lady on Monday, 25th April. Dame Irene Ward But the Answer given on 25th April said that progress was being made. When are we to have this report? Or are the Government more interested in the transport and general workers than they are in the workers working in ship-repairing yards? We on Tyneside are very interested in this matter. I want to know when we will get action. Could we have a list of how many actions the Department is committed to this Session? Mrs. Williams The hon. Lady was informed in answer to her last Question on the point that a series of joint meetings were in progress. This was allowed for in the case of particular industries under the Redundancy Payments Act. If she wants things to be speeded up, she should raise the matter elsewhere and not with my Department. Mr. Blenkinsop Is my hon. Friend aware that we on this side of the House are fully aware of and very happy about the amount of progress being made in these discussions which are giving new hope to the ship-building industry in this country? Dame Irene Ward rose— Dame Joan Vickers Is the hon. Lady able to answer a Question which I put previously as to whether the Royal Dockyards will be included in these discussions? Mrs. Williams Yes. I understand that the employers in the Royal Docks are governed by arrangements for industrial civil servants which make provision for redundancy on a slightly different basis. Redundant Miners (Transference Costs) 46. Mr. Edwin Wainwright asked the Minister of Labour if he will take steps to accept full financial cost, now borne by the National Coal Board, for the transference of redundant miners from one mining area to another. Mr. Gunter No, Sir. The cost of transferring workers within the employer's service is, except for the special case of key workers needed in development districts, a matter for industry itself and I cannot give exceptional treatment to the National Coal Board. Mr. Wainwright Is my right hon. Friend aware that if a redundant miner moves into another district and takes up some other occupation in, for instance, a steel works, his Department stands the cost of the transfer, whereas if the miner happens to move into another mining area for a job with the Coal Board, the Coal Board must stand the cost? Does he not think it unfair that the Coal Board should have to pay £3½ million a year for social responsibilities which should be borne by the State? Mr. Gunter The Coal Board accepts that social responsibility and has carried it out. Mr. Shinwell Is my right hon. Friend aware that, instead of the Coal Board accepting this responsibility, it was imposed on them by successive Governments? If redundancy is due to the policy of successive Governments, should not the Government accept the responsibility for it? Mr. Gunter The point is that this is a matter of money, as my right hon. Friend knows. We are informed that the arrangements concerning the National Coal Board and its redundant workers are being carried out satisfactorily. We have had no strong pressure on this matter. Resettlement Transfer Scheme (Allowances) 48. Mr. Dickens asked the Minister of Labour if he will improve the allowances payable under his Department's Resettlement Transfer Scheme. Mrs. Shirley Williams No, Sir. These allowances were considerably improved as recently as February, 1965. Mr. Dickens Is not my hon. Friend aware that these allowances, although recently improved, are still quite inadequate to encourage mobility? Is she further aware that they are markedly inferior to those available in most comparable Western European countries? Mrs. Williams My hon. Friend will find that these allowances are intended, not to cover the entire cost of being away from home, but as a contribution to meet the additional expense of living away from home. Ballistic Missile Defence Systems 49. Mr. Luard asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what representations have been made to the Soviet Government about the dangers of initiating a new arms race by the construction of anti-missile emplacements around her major cities. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Michael Stewart) It is not our practice to disclose details of the confidential discussions which members of Her Majesty's Government have with other Governments on questions of this sort. But I can assure my hon. Friend that we are giving serious consideration to the implications of the deployment, which could be of great importance, of ballistic missile defence systems and that in such matters we exchange views as appropriate with other Governments. Mr. Luard While welcoming that reply, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will assure us that he is using his influence to strengthen the resistance which the United States Secretary of State for Defense has so far been making to the very strong pressures to which he is subject from the United States Senate? Mr. Stewart We are very well aware of the risks involved if this development takes place. I understand that while the United States Government are continuing research and development they have taken no decision to deploy these weapons. Mr. Dodds-Parker May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he might consider sending Mr. Brown to sell defensive weapons of this type? Mr. Zilliacus Could my right hon. Friend help the United States' Secretary of State for Defense to resist these pressures by suggesting that he should be less bellicose in threatening nuclear war against China in the eventuality of China helping victims of American aggression in Vietnam? Mr. Stewart I think that my hon. Friend misreads the whole situation. United Nations (Peace-Keeping Operations) 50. Mr. Luard asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what consultations with other members of the United Nations on peace-keeping procedures and financing have taken place in accordance with the decision of the Special Committee on Peace-keeping at its meeting on Friday, 4th February; and what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government on this matter. The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mrs. Eirene White) I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement by the Chairman of the Special Committee on Peace-keeping contained in a General Assembly document of 29th April, a copy of which is in the Library of the House. Her Majesty's Government, like other members of the Committee, took part in the consultations mentioned in this document and were content to accept the Chairman's proposals for the Committee's method of work. Mr. Luard Would the hon. Lady give an assurance that during these discussions Her Majesty's Government will continue to maintain the principle which has been upheld by the International Court of Justice that the General Assembly is empowered to authorise peace-keeping operations of the kind that have been undertaken in the past? Mrs. White Yes, Sir. We consider that the Security Council has the primary responsibility, but not the exclusive responsibility; and in certain circumstances that responsibility does fall on the General Assembly. Mr. Zilliacus Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that if the Government stick to the principle of compulsory payments under Article 19 they will have to pay for an expeditionary force to Rhodesia, mounted by a two-thirds majority of the General Assembly? Mrs. White As my hon. Friend knows well, at the moment the contributions are on a voluntary basis. Sir Alec Douglas-Home Does the hon. Lady agree, as I am sure she does, that only the resolutions of the Security Council are mandatory on members and that no resolutions of the Assembly can be mandatory? Mr. Walters What steps are being taken to persuade the members of the United Nations who have not paid their subscriptions to pay them, and are the Government continuing to press them to do so? Mrs. White Yes, Sir. We are very anxious indeed, for obvious reasons, that all members should make their contributions to the United Nations peacekeeping operations. As is well known, it has not been possible to obtain full agreement about that and, therefore, to enable the very essential peace-keeping operations to be carried out, a voluntary system has so far been adopted. Sir Alec Douglas-Home Would the hon. Lady answer my question? Mrs. White The main responsibility is in the Security Council, but the General Assembly can, of course, make representations to the Security Council on peace-keeping matters. Rhodesia 51. Mr. William Hamilton asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what agreements have been made with the West German and Japanese Governments on the banning of the import of Rhodesian asbestos, chrome, and iron ore; and with which other countries negotiations are being pursued with similar ends in view. Mrs. White On German trade with Rhodesia, I would refer my hon. Friend to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister's reply on 10th May to my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, North East (Mrs. Renée Short). The Japanese authorities have co-operated by reducing very substantially their imports from Rhodesia. We are in touch with them about the possibility of their stopping their remaining imports. We are also in contact with those few countries which continue to take some substantial imports from Rhodesia. Mr. Hamilton Will my hon. Friend give an indication of when these negotiations will be concluded, and can she say whether or not she thinks they will be successful. Mrs. White We are having discussions with the Japanese continuously on the few commodities about which we have had difficulty. Progress has been made—with tobacco, sugar, iron ore and chrome—but there are others, such as asbestos, which are proving more difficult. Sir A. V. Harvey Is it not difficult for foreign countries to carry out the Government's policy when, in fact, it has been widely reported that Britain imported about 8,000 tons of chrome from Rhodesia after the sanctions had been introduced? Mrs. White I would need notice of that question. Mr. O'Malley In view of the very large contracts that some Japanese firms have with Rhodesia for iron ore, can my hon. Friend say what has been happening to the iron ore trade between Rhodesia and Japan in recent months? Mrs. White I understand that all but one company in Japan have agreed to come into line with the policy of stopping imports. However, if my hon. Friend requires a more detailed reply, he should table a Question to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade. Mr. Paget Is my hon. Friend aware that while Her Majesty's Government are busy negotiating with Japan to reduce Rhodesian trade, the Japanese are at present in Salisbury most energetically negotiating the increase of trade with Rhodesia, at our expense? Mrs. White My hon. and learned Friend made that same point when my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was replying to him last week. Hon. Members Is it true? Mrs. White I trust that none of these people are being encouraged by my hon. and learned Friend. Soviet Citizens (Diplomatic Immunity) 52. Mr. Paget asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many Soviet citizens enjoy diplomatic immunity in Great Britain today; and where they are based. Mrs. White One hundred and twenty-five Soviet officials at the moment enjoy diplomatic immunity in this country. Immunity is also extended to their wives and children. They are all based in London. Mr. Paget Is it not true that a great many of these people who have diplomatic immunity are engaged in occupations which come a great deal nearer to spying than anything indulged in by Mr. Brooke, and cannot some reduction in these numbers be made? Mrs. White I think that my hon. and learned Friend is fully aware that these are reciprocal arrangements. [Interruption.] We ourselves benefit. While I trust that we do not in any way misuse these immunities, we do benefit by having reciprocal arrangements in Moscow. Aden 53. Mr. Fisher asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what proposals he has for dealing with the increasing terrorist attacks in Aden. Mr. M. Stewart The real remedy lies in the hands of those outside South Arabia who support and encourage these outrages. For ourselves, we shall continue to make the best possible use of the resources and organisation at our disposal and the methods employable within the limitations imposed upon us by our own standards of humanity and justice. Mr. Fisher In view of the fact that these increasing terrorist attacks, organised from Egypt and the Yemen, are at least in part due to the announcement by Her Majesty's Government of their decision to abandon the Aden base in 1968, would the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge that our undoubted responsibility is to safeguard the lives of British Service men and their families, and, indeed, all loyal Arab civilians, which we have so far totally failed to honour; and will he tell the House what he proposes to do about it? Mr. Stewart I stated in my original Answer what we are doing and shall do about this. I do not at all accept the chain of cause and effect which the hon. Gentleman draws. There is, unhappily, a long story of terrorism in Aden, going back well before the present Government took office. There is no doubt, of course, of our responsibility, which we are fulfilling to the best of our power, to protect both our Service men and civilians. Mr. Shinwell If the terrorist attacks in Aden, which have gone on for far too long, are attributable to external elements, and if we cannot be expected to go to war with those external elements, would it not be wise for us to get out of Aden as quickly as possible? Mr. Stewart My right hon. Friend is aware of Government policy on this matter. We want to see the emergence of a form of Government for an independent South Arabia which, we trust, will bring an end to these outrages. Lord Balniel Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the reports are correct that the Federal Government have accepted the United Nations Resolution on Aden, and does this mean an ending of the state of emergency? As there is every indication that the National Liberation Front, far from diminishing acts of terrorism, is likely to increase those acts, in such circumstances can the right hon. Gentleman really give an assurance that the lives of British Service men in Aden will be fully protected? Mr. Stewart I certainly can give the assurance that we will continue to do everything in our power to protect the people for whom we are responsible from terrorism. For the rest of the noble Lord's question, I ask him to await the statement which I shall be making at the end of Question Time. Mr. Hugh Fraser The right hon. Gentleman must surely agree that in the last few months, since the announcement of the intention of Her Majesty's Government in this matter, the number of terrorist attacks has gone up in an unprecedented way. Would he not agree that the chief reason for this is that many Arabs who before were uncertain about things, now believe that the Federation will fail because we are unable to give adequate support and that those Arabs who were sitting on the fence have now come down on the hostile side? Mr. Stewart I do not think the facts bear out that point of view. If one looks at the whole record of terrorism one finds that the numbers of terrorist attacks in each month or each period have varied. There has been an increase recently. I do not think it can be maintained that the pursuit of a different policy by Her Majesty's Government would have brought about the situation which we all desire. Eighteen-Nation Disarmament Committee 54. Mr. Philip Noel-Baker asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will lay before the House a White Paper containing the verbatim records of the Committee of Eighteen on Disarmament during the years 1965 and 1966, together with the text of all proposals which the Committee has discussed. Mr. M. Stewart Copies of the verbatim records of the Eighteen-Nation Disarmament Committee, and of documents tabled at the Conference, are placed in the Library of the House as they arrive from Geneva. A White Paper on the disarmament negotiations during 1965 is now being prepared and will be laid before the House as soon as possible. It will contain extracts from the most important speeches made at the session of the Eighteen-Nation Disarmament Committee at Geneva during the summer of 1965, at the United Nations Disarmament Commission in May and June, and at the XXth session of the United Nations General Assembly in the autumn. The relevant documents will also be included. A White Paper on this year's negotiations will be prepared in due course. Mr. Noel-Baker While thanking my right hon. Friend for what he is doing, may I put it to him that unless the full verbatim records are available to hon. Members and the Press it is impossible for them to know what is happening; that this used to be done, and that it was abandoned because it cost £700 a year? Mr. Stewart The verbatim records are made available in the Library as soon as they arrive from Geneva. It would not be possible to provide copies of the provisional uncorrected records, since they are private documents and their disposal is not a matter for us alone. Mr. Blaker Is it not the fact that since the Labour Party came into power in 1964 not one of the new proposals for disarmament has come from Britain? Mr. Stewart No, Sir. I think that the hon. Gentleman should read the records. Questions To Ministers Mrs. Renée Short On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. As an undesirable alien will shortly be claiming entry into this country—a known Fascist, an unrepentant Fascist with anti-British views, who was not acceptable to the Government in 1951 as ambassador—would you direct the Foreign Secretary to give a reply to Question 62 on the Order Paper? Mr. Speaker I have had no such request. Unless a request comes to Mr. Speaker, I can take no notice of the matter. I have no power to direct in the way the hon. Lady requests.