Provisional Collection Of Taxes Bill As amended, Considered. Lord HUGH CECIL I should like to ask, Sir, whether in your opinion this is a Money Bill within the terms of Section 1 of the Parliament Act? Mr. SPEAKER Subject to any changes which may occur in the Bill during the Report stage, in my opinion this is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act. New Clause—(Application Of Act) This Act shall apply only to duties of Customs and Excise and to Income Tax. Mr. CASSEL I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time." This proposal is really in the nature of a drafting Amendment. When the Resolutions were under discussion the Chancellor of the Exchequer told me that he would limit the Bill to duties of Customs and Excise and Income Tax. He has carried that out, but he has put the provision, as I think, in the wrong place, or in not so favourable a place as it ought to be. I understand that the Attorney-General will accept the Clause. Question put, and agreed to. Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill. New Clause—(Duration Of Act) This Act shall continue in force for a period of eighteen months from the date of the passing thereof. Mr. HUME-WILLIAMS I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time." We on this side think that this Clause embodies a very important subject, and I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not think the matter less important because it can be briefly stated. Let me state briefly what the circumstances are under which this Bill has been introduced, and therefore what are the reasons why I suggest it should be limited in duration to a period of eighteen months. I think it is common ground that this Bill makes a new and very important departure in the law of the land and in the practice of this House. On the one hand, the Government are met with the difficulty that the system which has hitherto obtained of collecting taxes under a mere Resolution of a Committee of this House in anticipation of legislation has been declared to be illegal, and they apparently think that the best thing they can do is to introduce this Bill and for the first time in our history to give statutory effect to a mere Resolution of a Committee of this House. Many of us regard this system with great apprehension. The discussions in this House on such a Resolution must necessarily be brief. The object for which the Resolution is introduced is that it may go through quickly, and we think that the amount of discussion that can be given to what in the future will be a law authorising taxation is entirely inadequate to the importance of the subject. We fear that the Committee of Ways and Means in this House may become a mere automatic machine for registering and legalising schemes of Treasury officials. We fear also any scheme which shall give to the Government of the day, from whichever side it may be drawn, additional powers to use its party majority in the direction of minimising discussion and removing from the House of Commons its real control over the finances of the country. I believe that these fears are shared by a considerable number of Members on the other side of the House. Under these circumstances, what is the obvious course to pursue? The obvious course was and is to appoint a Select Committee recruited from those who have considerable experience of Parliamentary procedure and finance, and to get from them a suggestion as to the best means, on the one hand, of safeguarding our rights and through us the rights of the taxpayer, and, on the other hand, of facilitating for the Treasury the collection of the taxes of the country without fear of evasion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has consented to the appointment of such a Select Committee. Personally, I think it ought to have been appointed a long time ago. In my opinion, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have been well advised if, as soon as the decision was given in the action brought by Mr. Bowles, when he must have foreseen the difficulties that would arise, he had at once, or within a reasonable time, appointed a Select Committee to suggest the proper course to pursue in order to obviate the difficulties in which that decision would place the Government. However, better late than never; at last we are to have the Committee. The question which really comes before the House is whether the Report of this Select Committee is to be given a reasonable chance of being incorporated in legislation. The Committee will have many schemes to consider. I have no doubt that even among the treasures of the official mind, lurking behind the "modern eye," there are various schemes which will be brought before the Select Committee for consideration. There is the procedure of many foreign countries to be investigated. Information is to be derived from the experience of the procedure in other Parliaments. There are those who think that some scheme by which, if the Standing Orders of this House were altered, the Resolutions which precede the Finance Act could be done away with, the Budget could be introduced earlier in the year, and that part of it which deals with Customs and Excise could become immediately operative, and would be preferable to the scheme of a statutory Resolution incorporated in this Bill. Many schemes will have to be considered by the Select Committee. That being so, if the Committee is to do any good, and is to devise, as I hope it will, a workable scheme, just to all, what is the common sense of passing a permanent Bill first and then asking from the Select Committee a Report as to what that Bill should contain? Those who have experience of this House know what the fate of a Report under these circumstances is likely to be. The tragedy of "Love's Labour Lost" is nothing compared to the pathetic spectacle of gentlemen of eminence passing their valuable time in devising a Report which we know and they know, as soon as it appears, will receive decent permanent interment in the Blue Books of this House, which the youngest Member does not trouble to read after his first Session in Parliament. If that is so, and I think the statement is not exaggerated, surely common sense dictates that we should limit the duration of the Bill to a period which will give proper time for the completed scheme to come from the experts whom you yourselves are going to appoint. To make the Bill permanent will discourage those who are going to inquire. Then if you desire to act on the Report when it is presented, you will have to find time for it. It may come at a time when circumstances are altered. What Chancellor of the Exchequer, from this party or that, if he has this measure ready to his hand, will be able to resist the temptation to put it into operation without troubling himself about the Report of an expert Committee appointed eighteen months before? This is the net result. If your Committee of experts reports in accordance with the scheme of this Bill, if after due examination it comes to the conclusion that this scheme is the best, the measure can be included in the Expiring Laws Continuance Act, and it will go on automatically. If, on the other hand, as we on this side ardently hope, a new and better scheme is devised, this Bill will cease to be operative in eighteen months' time, and the new scheme can be incorporated in a perfect Bill, at which I am sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer is aiming as we are. Such a Bill could be presented, and, in the ordinary course, one is entitled to hope it would go through practically without opposition. Take this as a test—I think this is a legitimate observation—of the real intention of the Government, not to get themselves out of a temporary difficulty, but to secure a perfect scheme which shall remain in operation for all future time. If they really desire that, there is no possible reason why they should not accept a Clause limiting the duration of a measure which they admit is to deal with a temporary emergency only. If they desire that the Report of the Committee should be a farce, and that this new and startling procedure should be utilised for all time by all parties, of course there is no object in appointing the Select Committee and still less in limiting the duration of the Bill. I hope that these arguments will appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It seems to me that a time limit is the legitimate corollary of that to which he has already consented. I think the whole House is grateful to the Government for having recognised that an expert inquiry into this difficult question is required, and this is a way of making the work of that Committee effective. Mr. A. S. WILSON I beg to second the Motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George) This Clause was moved in identical terms on the Committee stage. The Government, after some discussion, promised to appoint a Select Committee to consider the best method of meeting the difficulties with which this Bill is intended to deal, and upon that promise the hon. and learned Member, although he distinctly stated that he preferred both to appoint the Committee and to limit the duration of the Bill, stated that half a loaf was better than no bread, and withdrew the Clause. Mr. HUME-WILLIAMS The Chancellor of the Exchequer will remember that I said at the time that I was no party to the bargain, and that I knew nothing of it. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE That is so, but I think the hon. and learned Gentleman will agree that I am within my rights in reminding him of the circumstances under which similar Clauses were withdrawn on Tuesday last. The hon. and learned Gentleman suggests that we should not merely appoint a Select Committee, but should also limit the duration of the Bill, and that the Government should undertake at once to give statutory effect to the Report of the Committee. That would be rather a rash pledge for any Government to give. Whatever Government happens to be in power eighteen months since would be bound to legislate at the time, and there might be reason why they should put it off for the time being. If the hon. and learned Gentleman has watched the whole proceedings carefully he will have found that this Bill has been very considerably limited since its first introduction into this House—at least since it was first outlined to the House; since the summary of the Bill and its pro- visions were outlined. Since then there have been Clauses introduced which will have the effect of limiting its operations very considerably indeed. As a matter of fact, the Bill does not represent 50 per cent. of the accommodation and facility which the old practice represented. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire knows that very well. The Amendment of the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Hugh Cecil), which the Government accepted, involves the statutory guarantee that the Budget will be debated during the course of the live part of the Session. Although no doubt the hon. and learned Gentleman will say that this Government have abused the facilities which they had under the old practice, still if he looks at the precedents he will find that many Governments have put off to the end of the Session the discussions on the Committee and Report stages of Resolutions. The Noble Lord will find possibly several cases of the Report, stages of Finance Bills which were put off till the end of July. I have no doubt there was some temporary justification for it. But that will be impossible while you have this statutory guarantee. It cannot be done. There are other limitations which have been introduced into the Bill. There is the limitation which confines it to Customs and Excise and the Income Tax. There are two or three other limitations, including the very serious one in regard to the new taxes. I would suggest to the hon. and learned Gentleman that when the Select Committee reports the Report may not be in favour of further limiting the Bill, but in favour of extending the powers. I would not mind predicting that the point of view of that Committee will possibly be that of old Members of this House and of those who studied the procedure on this matter, and that the Report will be in favour of widening and extending the powers. Therefore it will be rather in the interests of the Government of the day than those who are criticising the Bill from the point of view of excessive powers. The hon. and learned Gentleman has presented his case, and has presented it very clearly and fairly—as he always does—and I hope, having done so, he will now be able to see his way to withdraw the Amendment. Mr. HAYES FISHER I extremely regret the tone of the reply which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has given… Mr. LLOYD GEORGE Oh! Mr. HAYES FISHER Because it seems obvious to me that he contemplates not only this Bill, but still larger Bills in this direction as part of the permanent machinery of the Government and of the Executive. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE indicated dissent. Mr. HAYES FISHER The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but he was predicting just now that the result of any examination by any Select Committee would be to give to future Chancellors of the Exchequer even more powers. He will understand, then, why I regret it is so. I have taken some exception to the tone of his speech… Mr. LLOYD GEORGE Oh! Mr. HAYES FISHER Well, then, if the right hon. Gentleman will have it so, let me say I regret the outlook of the right hon. gentleman. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE Hear, hear. Mr. HAYES FISHER That outlook is a very different outlook to that which we hoped he was going to indulge in to-day. We have observed during the progress of this Bill that the right hon. Gentleman has made many concessions to those who have been criticising his proposals. Amongst those concessions—I was not able to continue in the House the other evening—there was the right hon. Gentleman's consent to the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the whole procedure attaching to this Resolution and this Bill. I was very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for having promised to set up that Committee. I was one of those whom the right hon. Gentleman beneath me consulted in respect to a Select Committee in the early days, when we were debating the Resolution on which this Bill is founded, and I was strongly in favour of such a Committee being set up. If we are to have that Committee, I think that Committee, having reported, there ought to be on the part of the Government some real desire to legislate on the lines of the Report, unless they strongly disagree upon it. I cannot help thinking as it is that it is this Government, after all, that has occasioned the difficulty. By challenging action in another place they have really created this difficulty, and therefore it is this Government which ought to deal with the difficulty and extricate this House and the country from the position in which they find themselves. From the speech of the right hon. Gentleman it seems perfectly patent when he gets these powers put into his hands, he is not likely to pay any attention to any Report of any Select Committee during, at any rate, the existence of this Parliament. Obviously this Parliament cannot last more than another two and a half years, even if it lasts its full time, and unless there is some limiting time put into the powers that are given to the Chancellor of the Exchequer by this Bill, I am quite certain that the Chancellor will not find time to indulge in any legislation which will be found recommended in the Report of the Select Committee. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will find himself in the possession of very large powers which he will fully enjoy. He will not be at all anxious to part with them for any lesser powers such as I think will be recommended by the Select Committee. I am quite aware that Chancellors of the Exchequer will be glad of the powers which are given by this Bill. For my own part I have been more anxious for the rights of the House, the rights of the subject, and the rights of the taxed subject than for the rights of the Treasury and the rights of Chancellors of the Exchequer. I think it is high time that there were more in this House who were ready to take the side of the House and the side of the subject against the side of the Treasury and the side of the Executive, even although they themselves may have had some experience on the Treasury side and may in every way possible be anxious to promote the getting in of our revenue in the proper and orthodox way. I regret that the Government do not see their way to put any Clause into this Bill making it a temporary Bill. If they have no intention of making it a temporary Bill that is almost conclusive that they are hoping to make this part of the permanent machinery of the Executive and of the practice of the Treasury. I have always said that this is a most dangerous power to give to any Chancellor of the Exchequer or to any Treasury. I fully admit that these powers have been very much limited, and particularly limited by the Amendment of the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University. His Amendment seems to me a very valuable Amendment. Yet these powers, limited as they are, are enormous. I can never fail to remember, when I am speaking on this Bill, the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for East Worcestershire, in which he himself admitted that even under the limited powers of the Bill it might be perfectly possible, by a single Resolution in Committee of Ways and Means, to raise the Income Tax from 1s. 2d. to 15s. in the £—this by one single Vote. Now, however, the Amendment of the Noble Lord has been put in, of course such a Resolution would have to be debated by the whole House within ten days; and within twenty days would have to find itself in a Finance Act. At the same time I have a great dislike to, and a great distrust of, giving such enormous powers to any Government, even for ten days. When taxation is once on it is very difficult to take off. The expenditure based on that taxation begins almost at once, and the arguments proposed against it are not always advanced at the right time or in the right place: the tax becomes part of the taxation of the country, and it is very difficult, after it has been actually passed by Committee of this House, to oppose it; for a successful opposition would probably lead to the overthrow of the Government of the day. The Government in defence would bring up all their forces. The Members might have very much disliked the Resolution when they first heard it; but the Government would subsequently say to their supporters, "You must support us; we will make this a matter of confidence, and if you oppose us you will help to turn the Government out at a critical time." So the Government are able to use this unfair power in respect to taxation, and the whole subject is not debated in that free way in which it would be debated under the present system. I cannot help thinking that there should be some limit, and I shall strongly support the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend that the operation of this Bill should be limited to eighteen months. That period would give the present Government time to legislate and extricate themselves from the difficulty in which they have landed this House of Commons. I think we ought to take every opportunity of registering our opinion that this Bill and the legislation founded upon a Resolution of Committee of Ways and Means is not legislation that ought to be passed as the permanent machinery of this country. Lord HUGH CECIL This Amendment is put forward not in the least degree in a spirit of complaint against the Government or the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We quite recognise the concession made on Tuesday evening, and the spirit in which it was made. This Amendment is merely put forward with a desire to improve the Bill. I confess, in spite of the arguments that were used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that it still seems to me that it would be an improvement. The right hon. Gentleman says, "You are quite as likely to have arrangements altered for the worse from your point of view as for the better; on the other hand, restrictions of this kind might be inconvenient and put forward at an awkward moment when it might be difficult to give the necessary time for the passing of the Resolution." In respect to the last matter no such difficulty could arise, for it would be always possible to meet it. No one could reasonably complain of its being put into one year in order to relieve Parliament of any congestion of business that it was suffering from at that time. So far as the other argument goes, I recognise fully that, if it was the danger the Chancellor of the Exchequer speaks of, nothing we do on this occasion can make that danger either less or greater. It is quite true that once having made this great breach in the constitutional security of the subject it is only too likely that it will be enlarged. Nothing is easier than to enlarge it. You do not require a new Bill. You can do it by a Clause in the Budget Bill, and you can sweep away any of those safeguards the Chancellor of the Exchequer speaks of. And I think it is very likely that a Clause would be introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Worcester (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) including new taxes. He has not concealed from the House that he has a very strong opinion that the Bill is almost useless unless it includes new taxes. When we have a majority in this House, and he is the Minister in charge of the finances of the country, he would lose no time in proposing such an addition to this Bill, the necessity of which he has always urged. The Government know they cannot restrain a future Chancellor of the Exchequer. As things are, there is no doubt in any future Budget it could be extended to any degree by any Chancellor of the Exchequer, and if it suited the purposes of the Treasury, whether presided over by a Unionist or a Liberal, to enlarge this Bill, this Bill will be enlarged. And the ineffectiveness of our resistance, not in argument, in which I think our resistance has been very effective, but the ineffec- tiveness of our resistance to having this thing done, shows how helpless those are who seek to put any limit upon the growing authority of the Executive Government. It is merely a question of how much the Treasury likes to ask for; they will get it. I think the main value of making the Bill temporary is the moral effect. By making it temporary we recognise that we are doing something which is a very serious change. We pay, at any rate, that debt of hypocrisy, which, as we know, is the tribute that vice pays to virtue, and we maintain, at any rate, the externals of the Constitution, and therefore, if there is any reaction of opinion which really thinks that the Executive Government has more power than they ought to have and that Parliament has less power than it ought to have, we are ear-marking this as one of the things on which reform should be made. There are many alternatives by which the convenience of the public might be served besides this breach in the Constitution. You might do it by getting importers to give security where a Resolution was passed, or you might allow the rapid passing of a temporary Act of Parliament which would be infinitely less harmful to a Constitutional procedure if you are to preserve the procedure resembling that which is sanctioned by tradition in this country, and you might allow a Bill to pass through all its stages in a short time if you have to deal with an emergency. I mention this to show that there are other alternatives. Therefore, if a Select Committee considered it thoroughly, it might well be that while they might report favourably as to the convenience of this particular Bill, they might also report amendments in our view desirable and they might also report that there are alternative schemes. Then you might have a reaction of opinion and if Parliament should think it was desirable to put a check upon the extraordinary power of the Executive Government, then you would have this scheme urged and this Bill ear-marked. On these grounds I think it would be better to make it a temporary Bill. We ought to maintain the forms of great deference to the ancient Constitution and show upon the Act of Parliament that we are conscious we are doing a thing which, even though it be necessary, is a matter of regret to those who wish to preserve our ancient constitutional procedure. Sir ALFRED CRIPPS I think it is a matter of great importance, having regard to the enormous change that this Bill would undoubtedly introduce, that it should be only of a temporary character. I go further than the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University. I think it would have more than a moral effect and I think it would have a great protective effect as regards the maintenance of the true spirit of our Constitution in the future. Take the case of the Army Act. Why is that temporary and renewable from year to year? It is that this House of Commons—not the Government—should maintain the control which would enable it to enforce whatever it thinks right as to public policy by the Army Act being passed only from year to year. It might be thought at the present day that the time has passed when it is necessary to keep these old safeguards. According to my view, there never was a time when it was more important to keep these old safeguards than at the present moment. It is just the same with regard to the Budget itself, because, according to constitutional practice, we only grant Supplies for one year. Why is that done? In order that this House may have the control, which it ought to have, in directing the public policy of this country, and that theory is the right one, because as long as we retain the power of the Purse, as it was known in the old days, nothing can be done contrary to our view of public policy, because in such circumstances we would not vote the necessary Supplies. Let me consider the present position of this constitutional question. It is no longer the House of Commons on the one side and the Executive in the form of the King on the other. It is the House of Commons struggling—and I want to call the attention of hon. Gentlemen to this—to maintain its effective and independent control against the Executive which gets its power from the majority of the House itself. That is the great difficulty at the present day. Can we ever effectively enforce the rights of the House as against the views of the Government supported by a particular majority? In old days, when these safeguards were formed, extreme party spirit was not the dominant factor, and the House of Commons view was that we were here as the representatives of the people in order to preserve control of taxation and in order to see that the rights of those whom we represented were not unduly interfered with. I have been looking to see if I could find a precedent for the action of the Government in the present Bill which gives statutory effect to a Resolution, and I have looked through the constitutional law books, and I can only find one precedent anything like the present, and that only endured for a very short time, and was, in fact, temporary. That was in the time of Henry VIII. Henry VIII. was not a very squeamish monarch as regards constitutional matters, but this was an Act passed in his day and it was repealed immediately afterwards. It was in these words:— "The King for the time being, with the advice of his Council, or the most part of them, may set forth proclamations which shall be deemed as if they were made by Act of Parliament." What are we doing now? We are doing exactly the same if we substitute the words "Resolution of the House of Commons" for what were called "Proclamations" by one of the most tyrannous monarchs that ever sat upon the throne of this country. That is the only precedent I can find for putting on one side the Crown and constitutional rule, because although the House of Commons or Parliament have the sovereign power, they can only express that sovereignty in a constitutional method named in an Act of Parliament which has gone through the form, at any rate, of being agreed to by the Second Chamber, and also by the King, who represents the third element in our Constitution. In fact, this proposal as it stands is a direct attack on the prerogative of the King, because you are giving statutory effect to a Resolution in which he takes no part at all. It is also, of course, a direct attack upon the rights of the Second Chamber, even a Second Chamber in its mutilated form as it exists at the present time, because you are overruling the Parliament Act. I thought the Parliament Act gave sufficient powers to this House, and although I am very much opposed to the idea of the Parliament Act, you are now overruling that Act. It is like the "Rake's Progress," once you give too much power, you are always seeking to make it worse, you are always seeking to make it more tyrannous against the principles of freedom and liberty. What is the difference between the proposal of Henry VIII. and what you are now doing? Let me put into my own language what was done in giving the power of an Act of Parliament to the proclamation of Henry VIII. It is "this House, for the time being, with the assent of the majority of Members, may pass a Resolution which will be taken to have statutory effect." That is paraphrasing the brutal Act passed giving these powers to Henry VIII., and applying it to modern times. I have protested against this and shall do so on every occasion, and if you insist on doing anything of the kind, surely you ought to put in some such limitation as is suggested by the Amendment now before the House! I do not say for a moment that any limitation would reconcile me to the upsetting of the whole basic fabric of our freedom and liberty in this House and country which is involved in making a mere Resolution of any body, whether the House of Commons or any other body, to have statutory effect as regards the imposition of new taxes upon the subject. When we come to consider the point which we constantly deplore, but which we do not go to the root or reason of, namely, why it is that we are losing our popularity and our hold upon the affections of the people of the country, of course the answer is because we are sacrificing and giving up the very duties that won us the affections of the people and made us popular in past history. It is as the sole guardian of the freedom of the people of this country that the House of Commons won its position, and to the extent to which it gives up that position it loses its hold upon the affections of the people. I feel most strongly the retrograde doctrines which are embodied in this Bill. Of course I must not go into that in any detail at the present moment, but at least let us do this: Let us put it in a temporary form in order to emphasise the fact that we are dealing with a temporary difficulty owing to the dilatory action of the present Government in introducing a particular Budget. Is that any reason for sacrificing the basic fabric of the right of this House and the liberties of the subject? I deny that. I say there is no difficulty whatever in dealing with what has been suggested as regards the claims of the Treasury without bringing forward a Bill of this kind, which ought never to have been initiated and the principle of which ought never to have been admitted, having regard to the spirit of the House of Commons. I do not care whether Liberals or Unionists sit upon the Front Bench. I draw no distinction between one side or the other. It is always the interest of the Executive of the party in power to run down the rights and liberties of this House, and they have done it to such an extent by the gag and the guillotine that we have only got a mere fragment of our old rights in existence at the present moment. It is because I look upon the House of Commons as the sole and real guardian of right government in this country, and because I regard the House of Commons with a deep affection, and believe historically that it stands in a unique position, that I hope this temporary Amendment may be introduced in order to emphasise the fact that we are only sacrificing our liberties and our rights for a temporary difficulty brought about by exceptional conditions. Mr. CASSEL I feel somewhat in a difficulty on this Amendment because I moved a similar Amendment during the Committee stage, and when the Chancellor of the Exchequer promised to appoint a Select Committee I was beguiled into withdrawing my Amendment, and therefore in any Division on this Amendment I should not feel at liberty to vote for it. I would like to know, however, whether the ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Agg-Gardner, James Tynte |Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes |Newman, John R. P. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Amery, L. C. M. S. |Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. |Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Anstruther-Gray, Major William |Fletcher, John Samuel |Parkes, Ebenezer | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Ashley. W. W. |Forster, Henry William |Perkins, Walter | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Astor, Waldorf |Gibbs, G. A. |Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesail) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Baird, J. L. |Gilmour, Captain John |Rutherford, John (Darwen) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) |Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. |Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Banbury, Sir Frederick George |Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) |Sanders, Robert A. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Barnston, Harry |Goulding, Edward Alfred |Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) |Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) |Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'pool, Walton) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks |Haddock, George Bahr |Snowden, Philip | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- |Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) |Spear, Sir John Ward | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Bigland, Alfred |Hambro, Angus Valdemar |Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Bird, A. |Harris, Henry Percy |Staveley-Hill, Henry | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Blair, Reginald |Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) |Steel-Maitland, A. D. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- |Hewins, William Albert Samuel |Stewart, Gershom | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Bridgeman, W. Clive |Hibbert, Sir Henry F. |Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Bull, Sir William James |Hoare, Samuel John Gurney |Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Burn, Colonel C. R. |Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) |Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Butcher, J. G. |Houston, Robert Paterson |Talbot, Lord E. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred |Hunt, Rowland |Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Castlereagh, Viscount |Hunter, Sir C. R. |Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) |Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) |Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. |Jones, Leif Straiten (Notts, Rushcliffe)|Touche, George Alexander | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r., E.)|Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr |Tryon, Captain George Clement | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Clay, Captain H. H. Spender |Kerry, Earl of |Valentia, Viscount | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Clive, Captain Percy Archer |Lane-Fox, G. R. |Warde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) |Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) |Weigall, Captain A. G. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Craig, E. (Ches., Crewe) |Lewisham, Viscount |Weston, Colonel J. W. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) |Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) |Wheler, Granville C. H. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred |Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Colonel A. R. |Wills, Sir Gilbert | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Croft, H. P. |Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) |Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Dalrymple, Viscount |MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh |Wood, John (Stalybridge) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) |Macmaster, Donald |Worthington-Evans, L. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Denniss, E. R. B. |M'Calmont, Major Robert C. A. |Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott |M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) |Wright, Henry Fitzherbert | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Duffy, William J. |Malcolm, Ian |Yate, Colonel Charles Edward | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. |Mildmay, Francis Bingham | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Faber, George Denison (Clapham) |Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas |TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Hume-William and Major Willoughby.| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Falle, Bertram Godfray |Mount, William Arthur | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Fell, Arthur | | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)|Ainsworth, John Stirling |Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Acland, Francis Dyke |Arnold, Sydney |Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)| ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. |Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A.|Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Government are going to appoint this Select Committee at once, because it is important that it should be appointed at the earliest moment. My desire in asking for the appointment of a Select Committee was not what the Chancellor of the Exchequer seems to think. It was to ascertain whether there were not alternatives which would enable us to deal with the situation without violating the Constitution in the way which has been so eloquently dealt with by my hon. Friend. What convinces me that there must be such alternatives that no country in the world has yet been cited except the Isle of Man, which has legislation similar to this. On these grounds I hope we shall be told, before the discussion on this Amendment concludes, when the Government are going to appoint this Select Committee. Question put, "That the Clause be now read a second time." The House divided: Ayes, 118; Noes, 258. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) |Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) |Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry |O'Malley, William | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Barnes, G. N. |Hayden, John Patrick |O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Barton, w. |Hazleton, Richard |O'Shee, James John | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Beale, Sir William Phipson |Helme, Sir Norval Watson |O'Sullivan, Timothy | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Beauchamp, Sir Edward |Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |Outhwaite, R. L. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Beck, Arthur Cecil |Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) |Palmer, Godfrey Mark | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bethell, Sir J. H. |Henry, Sir Charles |Parker, James (Halifax) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine |Herbert, General, Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) |Parry, Thomas H. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Black, Arthur W. |Higham, John Sharp |Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Boland, John Pius |Hinds, John |Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Booth, Frederick Handel |Hogge, James Myles |Pirie, Duncan V. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Boyle, D. (Mayo, North) |Holmes, Daniel Turner |Pointer, Joseph | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Brace, William |Holt, Richard Durning |Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Brady, P. J. |Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) |Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Brocklehurst, W. B. |Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |Primrose, Hon. Neil James | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bryce, J. Annan |Hughes, Spencer Leigh |Pringle, William M. R. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Burke, E. Haviland- |Illingworth, Percy H. |Radford, G. H. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Burns, Rt. Hon. John |Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus |Raffan, Peter Wilson | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas |Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea)|Reddy, M. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sidney C. (Poplar) |Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) |Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Byles, Sir William Pollard |Jones, H. Hayden (Merioneth) |Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Carr-Gomm, H. W. |Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) |Rendall, Athelstan | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) |Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts., Stepney) |Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) |Jowett, Frederick William |Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Chancellor, H. G. |Joyce, Michael |Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Chapple, Dr. William Allen |Keating, Matthew |Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clancy, John Joseph |Kellaway, Frederick George |Robertson, Sir G. S. (Bradford) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clough, William |Kelly, Edward |Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clynes, John R. |Kennedy, Vincent Paul |Robinson, Sidney | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Collins, G. P. (Greenock) |Kilbride, Denis |Roch, Walter F. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. |King, J. |Roche, Augustine (Louth) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Condon, Thomas Joseph |Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) |Roe, Sir Thomas | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |Rowlands, James | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cotton, William Francis |Lardner, James C. R. |Rowntree, Arnold | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cowan, W. H. |Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) |Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) |Leach, Charles |Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Crawshay-Williams, Eliot |Lewis, John Herbert |Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Crooks, William |Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas |Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Crumley, Patrick |Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) |Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Davies, E. William (Elfion) |Lundon, Thomas |Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) |Lyell, Charles Henry |Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |Lynch, A. A. |Sheehy, David | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire) |Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) |Sherwell, Arthur James | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Delany, William |McGhee, Richard |Shortt, Edward | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Denman, Hon. R. D. |Maclean, Donald |Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Dickinson, W. H. |MacNeill. J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) |Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Dillon, John |Macpherson, James Ian |Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Donelan, Captain A |MacVeagh, Jeremiah |Soames, Arthur Wellesley | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Doris, W. |M'Callum, Sir John M. |Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) |M'Curdy, Charles Albert |Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) |McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |Sutherland, J. E. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) |M'Micking, Major Gilbert |Sutton, John E. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Essex, Sir Richard Walter |Marks, Sir George Croydon |Taylor, John W. (Durham) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Esslemont, George Birnie |Marshall, Arthur Harold |Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Farrell, James Patrick |Mason, David M. (Coventry) |Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles |Meagher, Michael |Tennant, Harold John | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson |Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |Thomas, J. H. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Ffrench, Peter |Millar, James Duncan |Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Field, William |Molloy, M. |Thorne, William (West Ham) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Fitzgibbon, John |Molteno, Percy Alport |Toulmin, Sir George | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Flavin, Michael Joseph |Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz |Trevelyan, Charles Philips | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Gelder, Sir W. A. |Montagu, Hon. E. S. |Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Gill, A. H. |Mooney, J. J. |Wadsworth, J. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Ginnell, L. |Morgan, George Hay |Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Gladstone, W. G. C. |Morrell, Philip |Wardle, George J. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Glanville, Harold James |Morison, Hector |Waring, Walter | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Goldstone, Frank |Muldoon, John |Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)|Munro, R. |Watt, Henry A. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) |Murphy, Martin J. |Webb, H. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Griffith, Ellis J. |Needham, Christopher T. |White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) |Neilson, Francis |White, Patrick (Meath, North) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Gulland, John William |Nicholson, Sir C. N. (Doncaster) |Wiles, Thomas | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) |Norman, Sir Henry |Williamson, Sir Archibald | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Hackett, J. |Norton, Captain Cecil W. |Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) |Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Hancock, John George |Nuttall, Harry |Winfrey, Richard | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) |O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |Wing, Thomas | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |Wood, Rt Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Hardle, J. Keir |O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |Yoxall, Sir James Henry | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) |O'Donnell, Thomas | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) |O'Dowd, John |TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Wedgwood Benn and Mr. W. Jones.| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) |O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New Clause—(Power To Take Security In Lieu Of Taxes) "The Treasury may accept, in lieu of any taxes due to be collected under this Act, deposit or security to such amount as the Treasury may deem sufficient, having regard to the total amount of the duties to be collected under the authority of a Resolution or of the Bill founded on the said Resolution." Mr. STEEL-MAITLAND I beg to move, "That the Clause be now read a second time." This new Clause is intended to give the Treasury additional powers, and it is not intended to rule out those already conferred. As the House will see, its real effect is to give the Treasury power to take security from the unfortunate taxpayer instead of mulcting him at once of taxes which are not legally due. It may rather appear as if legislation on this subject in the House and the Committee were of a wonderland variety, because this is now submitted as an addition, just as the Select Committee, which might have preceded the passing of this legislation, is now to be set up as a tribunal afterwards. I submit that it is very advisable as an addition, quite apart from the fact that to give the Treasury power, if they wish it, to take security from the possible taxpayer instead of making him absolutely pay the duty in the first instance is a good alternative. It does affect the whole position, the question of which has been argued at very great length before the House and the Committee, and this Clause does permit of the revenue of the year being safeguarded without the necessity of actually exacting taxation before the Finance Act of the year is passed. That is to say it permits of a better alternative if the Treasury find it possible to apply it. One objection which may be urged against it is that, whereas it is peculiarly applicable to Customs and Inland Revenue and duties on consumption, it is not so applicable to the Income Tax. All I would submit is that so far as this alternative of taking security from traders, instead of making them pay the tax in the first instance, is not applicable to Income Tax, the objection could quite easily be met in various ways. It could quite easily be met by an extension of the Income Tax year, quite apart from an alteration of the date of the beginning of the year. When it comes to the Customs and Inland Revenue, then I submit that it forms an infinitely prefer- able alternative which the Treasury should have it in their power to exercise in addition to those they are at present taking under the Act. Unless they have powers of this kind, how will the Treasury or the Inland Revenue deal with the case of new duties? We have had new duties excepted from the operation of the Bill. Whatever risk there was to the revenue in regard to other taxes has now been stopped, but whatever risk has existed with regard to new duties will still continue to exist, and that in a fuller measure than ever before. The very fact that the House passes legislation in order to prevent a leakage of revenue in regard to old duties, or the variation of old duties, practically constitutes an inducement to the trader to object to the paying of taxes on the strength of a Resolution in the case of new Customs Duties. Consequently, the very fact that you have legislation with regard to the variation of old duties makes it all the more necessary to safeguard the revenue with regard to new duties. The alternative which I suggest meets the difficulty without raising the objections. You are not met with the difficulty of collecting taxation without an Act of Parliament in the case of the new duties. All that you do is to safeguard the revenue by taking security from traders that those duties will be paid as soon as the provision comes into force as an Act of Parliament. Therefore, the exclusion from the Act of new Customs Duties makes additional powers of this kind all the more desirable. It may be objected that it will be difficult to work such an alternative system. But, when all is said and done, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and in that financial year of difficulties 1909–10 when the Finance Act was delayed till 1910, the very procedure which I suggest was for the time being adopted by the Commissioners of Customs and Inland Revenue with perfect success. For a considerable period of that year, although they had not got legislative power, the Commissioners of Customs, I believe, did take security from traders in respect of goods that were dutiable under the Resolution. They found it to be a good and reasonable way of protecting the revenue. When the Budget of that year was rejected in December the Commissioners of Customs had to give notice that from the date of the notice the taxes would cease to be in force, and from that time they found they had very great difficulty indeed in collecting their revenue. But, if anyone will take the trouble to read the Report of the Commissioners of Customs for that year, they will find that in the end they were able to collect the whole of the revenue without any deficiency outstanding whatsoever. I believe there was considerable difficulty with regard to a certain amount of revenue which had to be collected in Ireland. I think I am right in stating that the collection in Scotland proceeded with due dispatch. Reluctant as persons were to pay the money, yet the naturally good financial character of the Kingdom enabled the Commissioners of Customs to get their revenue in properly. Mr. T. M. HEALY It was the same in Ireland. Mr. STEEL-MAITLAND The hon. and learned Member says that it was the same in Ireland. I fancy it was in the end, but they did not pay perhaps quite with the same willingness or dispatch. Mr. T. M. HEALY There was only one Belfast man who objected. Mr. STEEL-MAITLAND Whether he objected or not, the money in the end was got in by this means. It would not under any other means have been equally easy to get in the money, and I submit to the Government that unless they have got quite convincing reasons to the contrary it would be very wise for the Treasury to have additional powers of this kind. The objections which have been brought against the rest of the Bill do not apply to them. They do stop a leakage which even now exists, and which may exist with regard to new Customs Duties, and as far as the best advice which a private Member can get goes, they give a perfectly good and desirable alternative to the other methods which otherwise the Treasury may be obliged to employ under the powers given them by the Act. We should be glad on a point of this kind to have some answer dealing with the actual merits of the case. I admit gladly that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has met us very fairly in many cases, but the Government have not met the objections that have been urged on this side of the House with regard to some points, and practically no reason has been vouchsafed to us whatsoever. A great deal of advice has been taken in this matter and the Clause is submitted as a real working alternative which might be useful to the Treasury. I therefore think the House would do well to accept it, and I hope, if the Government find it impossible to do so, that we shall be furnished in some detail with the reasons which make it imperative for them to refuse. Mr. CASSEL I beg to second the Motion. The SECRETARY OF STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. McKenna) As I am not in a position to accept the hon. Member's Amendment, I speak with some anxiety lest he should say that I have been unable to supply him with adequate reasons for declining to do so. I will do my best to explain why it is regarded as undesirable to give this alternative power to the Treasury. He has fairly stated that this power does not in the least bit limit the existing power of the Treasury under the Bill. It increases the power of the Treasury, because it gives two alternative methods of proceeding against the person whom the hon. Member describes as "the unfortunate taxpayer." I do not say that it would be inconvenient—it might be convenient—to the Treasury to have this additional power, but, in asking for such exceptional powers as we do ask for under this Bill, we ought carefully to safeguard the interests of the unfortunate taxpayer. Above all things the trader wants certainty. He wants to know that in the ordinary exercise of his business the routine to which he is accustomed in his dealings with Government offices will be continued. He has throughout his business experience paid his Customs Duties when taking his goods out of bond. He has not been accustomed alternatively to giving security, and he certainly would not desire that the Treasury should ever exercise a discretion and allow one trader to take out his goods on giving security whilst insisting upon another trader, whose security the Treasury might not think equally good, paying the full amount of the taxes. The taxpayer wants every-trader to be treated alike, and he wants to know definitely and certainly what is the treatment which he is going to receive. This Amendment does not touch what has been called the "vital defect of the Bill." The Bill authorises the Government to exercise powers over the citizen under a Resolution instead of under an Act of Parliament. The new Clause of the hon. Member has precisely the same vice. The Treasury is allowed to interfere to exact security from the trader under a Resolution. Mr. STEEL-MAITLAND The right hon. Gentleman has really misstated the position. The Amendment, if he himself had not taken exception to it, would have been put forward as an alternative, and his present argument, therefore, is hardly fair. With regard to the other points, it does not exact taxation. It avoids that objection in taking security, instead of exacting taxation. Mr. McKENNA I corrected that and said that it exacts security. I quite admit that, excepting in one small particular, the hon. Member is strictly accurate, but I can only deal with this new Clause now as it stands upon the Paper as an alternative Clause. Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON An additional power. Mr. McKENNA I am much obliged to the hon. Member, I mean as an additional power. I quite agree that when the hon. Member moved the Clause as an alternative, I took exception to it in Committee as being out of order, but I would remind him that the Chairman of Ways and Means did not rule it out of order on the ground which I advanced, but on entirely different ground. I can only deal with this Clause as an additional power to the Treasury, and I have to ask the House not to accept it. I do not know whether the hon. Member would consider that I was treating him more fairly if I argued the case on the basis that it was an alternative to Clause 1, but I should clearly not be in order in doing so. I can only argue it as an additional power. I do not think the matter is of very serious consequence, but it would be undesirable to give the Treasury the power of dealing with different traders in different ways. I hope those are sufficient reasons why this Amendment should not be accepted as it stands, and I trust the hon. Member will not consider it necessary to press the Clause to a Division. Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON I thought the right hon. Gentleman meant to deal with all the points contained in my hon. Friend's speech, but unfortunately he left off just as he began to be interesting. I wanted to know particularly what the Government proposed to do with regard to the cases of new taxes. Mr. McKENNA If the hon. Member will look at the Amendment he will see that we cannot touch the case of new taxes, because the words are "in lieu of any taxes due to be collected under this Act." New taxes, therefore, are not included. Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON No doubt that is a short answer to my point, but I fancy it would be quite possible, if this Clause were read a second time, to so amend it as to cover the cases of new taxes. On the merits the Government should have some alternative plan dealing with new taxes. I realise that one cannot improvise such a thing in a day or two, and I therefore hope that this is one of the points which the Select Committee will take into consideration. It is, I think, almost doubtful whether the Commissioners of Customs have not this power already. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at Section 30 of the Customs Laws Consolidation Act, 1876, and the following Section he will find it provided that if any dispute shall arise as to the proper rate to be paid on any goods it shall be admissible for the importer or consignee or his agent to deposit in the hands of the collector of Customs at the port of importation the duty demanded by the collector, all such deposits to be paid to the general account and to bear interest, in case of recovery, at 5 per cent. What I really want to ask the right hon. Gentleman is whether it is the intention of the Government that in the interval between the proposition of a new tax and its full regulation by the Finance Act of this House, it is not intended to collect anything by any procedure in respect of it? Mr. J. M. HENDERSON I cannot imagine anything more unfair than that the Government should have the power of exercising such an alternative when dealing with Customs. It may be called an additional power, but undoubtedly it is one which will always be exercised by the rich trader. It will give him an enormous advantage over the poor trader. If he is called upon to pay a large amount of duty, he will say, "I will not pay the money until the Finance Act has been passed, and, therefore, I will give you security." He will, consequently, have no duty to pay for some months, and he will save the interest on that money, while the poor trader who has to pay cash will lose the interest on his money. I cannot imagine anything more unfair. The power would always be claimed by the man who can afford to deposit security. Of course where cash has to be deposited it will not matter so much. This provision must tend to the benefit of the rich trader. It is not an alternative power; it is an additional power which will always be claimed, and there will be increased cost to the Government in dealing with these things. I do not think it is a wise suggestion on the part of the hon. Gentleman opposite. Mr. T. M. HEALY I think the Government have acted wisely in this matter. I should like to point out that the Bill of Rights has never applied to Ireland. Apart from the question of Income Tax, I have always taken the view that at common law there is, so far as Excise Duties are concerned, some such power as this. It was for this reason that I strongly held the opinion that this Bill was ultra vires. I am glad the right hon. Gentleman has declined to introduce such an invidious provision into it. With regard to the Bill generally, I must say that the Amendments the Attorney-General has put down have met many of the objections I felt in the early stages of the measure. Mr. JONATHAN SAMUEL I hope the hon. Member opposite will not press this proposal to a Division, because it would, if carried, involve very serious injury to the revenue, and inflict a grave injustice upon a very large number of small traders. Let me give an illustration showing how it would work. Take a person owning multiple shops—hundreds of shops. He would go into the market to get his tea; it is a well-known fact that sometimes persons in this position pay an enormous sum, as much as £50,000, in the form of Tea Duty. Under this scheme they would be enabled to get credit for four months as between the time of the introduction of the Resolution and the legalising of the duty by the passing of the Finance Act. What occurs? They obtain the duty from their customers week by week. The tea is sent out to the different shops throughout the country, and the duty is collected the same week and transmitted to the head office. Thus the dealer, while collecting the duty, is obtaining credit from the State for a period of four months. The same principle applies to the Sugar Duty. For hundreds of years the Inland Revenue authorities have had the power to charge the duty when tea or sugar or any other article subject to it has been taken out of bond. That is fair to all customers without exception, and I think it is an advantage to every customer that he should know he is equal in the eyes of the law with other men. One man should not have credit and another be compelled to pay his duty straight off. There is another thing, a large buyer might deposit securities which at the end of four months turned out to be valueless. What would occur then? The revenue would be bound to suffer the loss, while the customer would have paid the dealer the duty in the form of the increased price of tea. I think the hon. Member, under these circumstances, would be well advised not to press this Clause, even with regard to new taxes. I do not think it is possible under this Bill that any new indirect taxes can be enacted, and I do not see how, when you leave out the new taxes, to enforce them and to allow the traders to purchase goods between the time of the introduction of the Bill and its passage into law. I am quite sure, if this Clause were passed, it would involve a very severe loss to the Exchequer. Mr. STEEL-MAITLAND I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Motion. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. New Clause—(Liability Of Commissioners Of Customs And Inland Revenue To Be Sued) The Commissioners of Customs and the Commissioners of Inland Revenue shall be liable to be sued in respect of any moneys which ought to be repaid or made good by them under this Act. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be now read a second time." Mr. CASSEL The object of this Clause is to render the Commissioners of Customs and the Commissioners of Inland Revenue liable to be sued in respect of any money which ought to be repaid or made good by them under the Act. The scheme of the Act is that the duty shall have statutory effect from the moment the Resolution is passed. If that Resolution is ultimately rejected, or if it is not embodied in the Act of Parliament, any duties which have been paid will have to be repaid. Suppose the Customs Duties have been paid and have found their way into the hands of the Commissioners of Customs and thence into the Consolidated Fund, what is the remedy of the subject? So far as I can see, his only remedy is a Petition of Right. It has been established that no action or mandamus would lie against the Commissioners. But the Petition of Rights is a very cumbrous procedure. It cannot be taken in the County Court. Why, in the cases where small sums are involved, should not the more simple procedure of the County Court be applicable? It certainly would be preferable, and it would be cheaper for the subject. This Clause is put forward really as a protection for small people in getting back their money. It is a fact that nowadays people pay Income Tax over and over again beyond what they are liable to pay. Hundreds of people do so, and they simply do not recover it because of the expense which would be involved in the process. We ought to have the simplest kind of procedure to recover moneys which have been paid under the provisional effect of the Resolution. With regard to the Petition of Rights, it rests with the Attorney-General to say whether or not he will allow it to proceed. It is a matter solely within his discretion. Of course, I should not suspect any Attorney-General, and least of all the right hon. Gentleman opposite, of exercising the power except with perfect fairness. But, as a matter of fact, it is simply an act of grace or favour; it is not a matter of right. I see no reason why the ordinary procedure should not be available to the subject. Why should he not have the procedure of the County Court open to him? Under the National Insurance Act a Clause was specially inserted enabling the Insurance Commissioners to be sued. If it is not below the dignity of Insurance Commissioners to be sued, why should it be below the dignity of the Inland Revenue Commissioners? Mr. TOUCHE I beg to second the Motion. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Rufus Isaacs) I do not think there is any necessity for this Clause. The provisions of the Act are not new; there is nothing novel in the procedure which is laid down; the only difference is in the authority which is affected. These provisions have actually been in existence for a considerable time. My hon. and learned Friend knows that they are to be found in other Acts of Parliament, and I would suggest that it is neither necessary nor desirable in this particular Statute to introduce provisions for a different kind of procedure. I will not argue the question whether there may or may not be something to be said for enabling the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to be sued. But I am quite sure it would be very undesirable to devise a means of procedure to recover money under this Bill different from that provided for in Statutes already in existence. There may be a good deal to be said for securing a better form of procedure than the Petition of Rights. But that plan acts very well. When a Petition of Rights is presented it goes in the ordinary course before the Attorney-General, who advises first the Home Secretary and then His Majesty. That is the constitutional procedure and, if the right is allowed, then the Petition comes before the Court in the ordinary way. The fiat is always granted, as the hon. and learned Gentleman knows. What I should strongly deprecate, from every point of view, is that you should introduce a special kind of procedure in regard to this Bill differing from any other under which you have to recover money from the Treasury, the Inland Revenue or Customs. I hope my hon. and learned Friend will see fit, in view of that, to withdraw the Clause. It may be a proper subject matter for discussion on a more general question on another occasion, but we certainly ought not to single out that form of procedure for application to this Bill. Sir A. CRIPPS There can be no doubt that the Petition of Right as against the Commissioners of Customs is an archaic form of procedure, and very unusual when a man wants to recover money. I understand the Attorney-General's view that this is a matter which might well be considered if we were dealing with this subject as a whole, and not with this particular Bill. But my hon. and learned Friend is really well advised to raise the question here, because we are dealing with a very exceptional case, the case of money which has been paid or collected under the terms of a Resolution, which is subsequently overridden either by no Act being passed or by an Act being passed in a different form. Take the position of a person who in these circumstances, having paid the money, desires to get it back. The particular individual may be very poor, and it is utterly impossible for poor individuals to obtain a remedy by means of a Petition of Right; I think the Attorney-General will agree with that. Sir RUFUS ISAACS I know some poor people who have recovered on a Petition of Right. Sir A. CRIPPS They must have had very exceptional nerve. Sometimes I have been asked to advise, and I have said, "If you do not want to get into bankruptcy you had better put up with your loss than put forward a Petition of Right, which is a very expensive form of remedy." In Section 30 of the Customs Consolidation Act, 1874, which deals with all questions relating to duties and Excise, it is said:— "The duty paid in the first instance shall be deemed to be taken to be the proper duty payable unless an action or suit shall be commenced by the importer within three months after." I am not sure whether that means that the suit or action must be by Petition of Right. Perhaps the Attorney-General can tell us that. So far as the terms of the Section are concerned, they seem to contemplate an ordinary suit or action. What we are seeking to get is a remedy very much like the remedy under Section 30 of the Customs Consolidation Act. That is a case where the duty payable in the first instance is afterwards found to be wrong in amount, and then an easy form of remedy is given to the importer by which he may recover the amount from the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. If that is a true reading of Section 30 of the Customs Consolidation Act, 1874, there is a stronger case for giving an easy remedy such as is suggested by my hon. and learned Friend, because the whole assumption here is that the payment has been wrongly made or the sum wrongly collected, and so wrongly collected that a subsequent Act of Parliament has determined it is so. You may have men who want to recover anything from a few shillings to a small number of pounds, and you ought to afford them the easiest form of remedy the law allows. The easiest form of remedy the law allows in respect to small sums is the County Court. Why should not a man who wants to obtain repayment of a small sum of shillings or pounds go to the County Court against the Inland Revenue Commissioners, just as he would against any other man who owes him money? The old notion is that the Inland Revenue Commissioners are the Crown. They, like every other public body who have taken money wrongly, ought to be made to refund it in the easiest possible way known to our law. Having regard to the exceptional circumstances of the Bill, an exceptional and easy form of remedy might be allowed. Mr. POLLOCK The Attorney-General seems to overlook the fact that under this Bill he is taking exceptional powers which have never hitherto been given, and which are now being embodied in a Statute which is quite new to our present procedure and to our system of collecting taxes. I appreciate the difficulty he has foreshadowed as to our dealings with the whole question of the right to recover from the Crown. No doubt that is a very serious difficulty, and would properly be considered on broader lines than it is possible to consider it now, but we have in this Bill a provision which takes care to make it plain that where there has been a modification of the Resolution or a modification in the Act of the tax as originally introduced under the authority of the Resolution, the money which would have been payable under the new conditions shall be repaid or made good, and consequently in Clause 1, paragraph (d), any deduction is deemed to be an unauthorised deduction. The matter stops there. The Government have made it clear that where the conditions have been varied there is an unauthorised deduction or payment. What possible remedy at the present moment has the subject in respect to these payments or deductions? I take the case of the Income Tax. If he applies to Somerset House he can obtain certain forms, and after going through a considerable amount of torturous procedure he may get the money back, but he has to possess his soul in patience during weeks and months. I should like the Attorney General to say that this matter will be considered by the Inland Revenue Commissioners from the point of view of the subject, in order that they might give some notice that there was this right to claim money which could be pursued by the taxpayer. It is a matter of some importance, because it is all very well to declare a right in Act of Parliament, with which very few subjects are familiar, and to say it is a deduction which ought not to have been made and shall be repaid or made good. It is not likely to arise very often that the Resolution on Report or the Act does modify the tax, and it would be satisfactory if we could be assured that the Commissioners in these cases would, either by public notice or in some other way, indicate that easy facilities for the repayment of money would be given. If the Attorney-General could make some statement of that sort it would meet the difficulty. I recognise that it would not be fair to press the Government to accept the new Clause. Sir RUFUS ISAACS I should like to say one word in answer to the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Pollock), who made a very good and reasonable suggestion. I think it is quite right that the Commissioners should make all provision they can to bring to the notice of those who have paid, if the Resolution is modified in any way, that the money can be claimed and that the Commissioners would be bound to return it. I think that suggestion is a very good one. It would not be possible to put it in the Bill, but I agree with him that it ought to be done. I will certainly take care to bring to the minds of the Commissioners that I have said it should be done, and that, whatever money has to be returned in these circumstances, great care should be taken to give very full notice. I see that the Bank of England, in the form they are now issuing, state that they are deducting the money, but if any persons object they will be bound to return the money as the law stands at present. They could easily put in a notice stating that if there is any change in the Resolution or in the Bill which is subsequently introduced which in any way gives the subject a right, that the money would be returned. That might be sufficient to bring to the notice of poorer persons that they were entitled to return the money. The Commissioners would not desire to keep one penny of the money which was not lawfully due. I am much obliged to the hon. and learned Gentleman for the suggestion. Mr. CASSEL In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and in view of his promise to take the general question into consideration, I ask leave to withdraw the Motion. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 1—(Resolutions Imposing, Varying, Or Renewing, Tax To Have Statutory Effect For A Limited Period) (1) Where a Resolution is passed by the Committee of Ways and Means of the House of Commons providing for the variation of any existing tax, or for the renewal for a further period of any tax in force or imposed during the previous financial year, whether at the same or a different rate, and whether with or without modifications, and the Resolution contains a declaration that it is expedient in the public interest that the Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of this Act, the Resolution shall, for the period limited by this Section, and subject to the provisions of this Act, have statutory effect as if contained in an Act of Parliament, and where the Resolution provides for the renewal of a tax all enactments which were in force with reference to that tax as last imposed by Act of Parliament shall, during the said period, and subject to the provisions of this Act, have full force and effect with respect to the tax as renewed by the Resolution. Provided that— (a) The Resolution shall cease to have statutory effect if during the said period it is not agreed to by the House when considered on Report within the next ten days on which the House sits after the Resolution is passed by the Committee of Ways and Means, and if a Bill varying or renewing the tax under the authority of the Resolution is not read a second time by the House within the next twenty days on which the House sits after the Resolution is agreed to; and(b) The Resolution shall cease to have statutory effect if during the said period Parliament is dissolved or prorogued, or an Act comes into operation varying or renewing the tax under the authority of the Resolution, or the Resolution is rejected by the House when considered on Report, or the provisions giving effect to the Resolution are rejected during the passage of the Bill containing those provisions through the House, and if modified when considered by the House on Report shall have effect under this Act as so modified; and(c) Where the Resolution so ceases to have statutory effect, or the said period terminates, before an Act comes into operation varying or renewing the tax under the authority of the Resolution, any money paid in pursuance of the Resolution shall be repaid or made good, and any deduction made in pursuance of the Resolution shall be deemed to be an unauthorised deduction; and(d) Where the tax as varied or renewed by the Resolution is modified, either when considered by the House on the Report of the Resolution, or by the Act varying or renewing the tax under the authority of the Resolution, any money which has been paid in pursuance of the Resolution, which would not have been payable under the new conditions affecting the tax shall be repaid or made good, and any deduction made in pursuance of the Resolution shall, so far as it would not have been authorised under the new conditions affecting the tax, be deemed to be an unauthorised deduction; and(e) When during any Session a Resolution has had statutory effect under this Act, statutory effect shall not be again given under this Act in the same Session to the same Resolution or to a Resolution having the same effect; and(f) This Act shall apply only to duties of Customs and Excise and to Income Tax.(2) The period for which a Resolution shall have statutory force under this Section shall be a period expiring at the end of four months after the date on which the Resolution is expressed to take effect, or, if no such date is expressed, after the date on which the Resolution is passed by the Committee: In this Act any expression referring to the renewal of a tax shall be deemed to refer also to the reimposition of a tax. Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "Commons" ["Committee of Ways and Means of the House of Commons"], insert the words ("so long as it is a Committee of the Whole House)." In paragraph ( a), leave out the words "during the said period" ["if during the said period it is not agreed"].—[ Sir Rufus Isaacs.] In paragraph ( a), after the word "to" ["is not agreed to"], insert the words "with or without modification."—[ Mr. Cassel.] In paragraph ( a), leave out the words "when considered on Report" ["by the House when considered on Report"].—[ Sir Rufus Isaacs.] Amendment proposed: In paragraph ( a), leave out the words "of Ways and Means" ["Resolution is passed by the Committee of Ways and Means"].—[ Sir Rufus Isaacs.] Lord HUGH CECIL Why does the Attorney-General take out the words "of Ways and Means" here and not earlier? As a matter of drafting, I should think they ought to be left out earlier. Sir RUFUS ISAACS It is not necessary. We have already shown that it must be a Committee of Ways and Means, as we have named it. I inserted it earlier in order to meet the objection of the Noble Lord. Amendment agreed to. Further Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph ( a), after the word "and" ["and if a Bill varying"], insert the word "also." Leave out the words "under the authority of the Resolution." In paragraph ( b), leave out the words "during the said period" ["if during the said period Parliament is dissolved or prorogued"]. Leave out the words "under the authority of the Resolution" ["renewing the tax under the authority of the Resolution"]. Leave out the words "when considered on Report" ["is rejected by the House when considered on Report"]. After the word "and" ["and if modified when considered"], insert the words "the Resolution." Leave out the words "when considered" ["and if modified when considered by the House on Report"]. Leave out the words "on Report" ["when considered by the House on Report"]. In paragraph ( c), leave out the words "under the authority of the Resolution." In paragraph ( d), leave out the words "when considered" ["either when considered by the House"]. Leave out the words "on the report of the Resolution." Leave out the words "under the authority of the Resolution."—[ Sir Rufus Isaacs.] 6.0 P.M. Mr. POLLOCK I beg to move to leave out the words "under the new conditions affecting the tax," and to insert instead thereof the words "if the said Resolution so modified or the said Act had been in force at the time of such payment." The Attorney-General will be familiar with these words. On the last occasion he very nearly agreed to accept them. He thought they were better than those of the draftsman, and his only objection was that in a consequential Amendment I had not provided for a difficulty which ought to have been provided for. I have taken the trouble to see that my consequential Amendments are in consonance with the Amendment that I now move. We are dealing in this paragraph (b) with the circumstance that there may be a modification, either upon Report of the Resolution or when the Act itself is brought in and carried through the House, of the original Resolution and the terms of the tax imposed by that original Resolution. When you have got the modification in the subsequent stages either of the Resolution or of the Act, you have got a difference between the tax which was originally imposed by virtue of the Resolution and the tax imposed or continued by the amended Resolution on Report or by the Act which is in fact passed. But in all these cases the tax is imposed by the authority of an Act of Parliament, and I desire very carefully to preserve not only the theory but the practice, that the tax is imposed by an Act of Parliament, and is not imposed by a mere Resolution, although for certain purposes statutory effect may be given to a Resolution. Where there has been a modification of the original Resolution the draftsman describes that situation as "new conditions affecting the tax." There never were any original conditions affecting the tax, and when the tax has been altered or modified by the Resolution on Report or by the Act that does not impose new conditions at all. It merely alters the terms of the tax that is imposed, and in the interests of careful drafting and good legislation, it is very unfortunate to use words which are certainly inapt to express what is intended. I propose to substitute words which would make the Clause read:— "Where the tax, as varied or renewed by the Resolution is modified, either when considered by the House on the Report of the Resolution, or by the Act varying or renewing the tax, any money which has been paid in pursuance of the Resolution, which would not have been payable if the said Resolution so modified or the said Act had been in force at the time of such payment shall be repaid or made good." If I may finish the Clause with the consequential Amendment, it would run:— "And any deduction made in pursuance of the Resolution shall, so far as it would not have been authorised if the said Resolution so modified or the said Act has been in force at the time of such payment shall be deemed to be an unauthorised deduction." Inasmuch as there are no new conditions and the tax is imposed by Statute and not really by Resolution, I submit that on this occasion the right hon. Gentleman ought to come over to the view I presented to him before and agree with me, as he did as to certainly nine-tenths of the way, that the words I propose to put in are more happy than the words chosen by the draftsman. Although I admire his continual loyalty to his draftsman, I trust on this occasion his loyalty to good legislation will cause him to accept the Amendment. Mr. CASSEL I beg to second the Amendment. Sir RUFUS ISAACS The question between my hon. and learned Friend and myself is really a very narrow one. It is entirely a matter of phraseology, and, although he says he likes his own drafting, and rather suggests that I like his drafting better than the Government drafting, I am not prepared to go quite as far as that. I am prepared to say I think his words are very apt, but I think they would require a little alteration in order to make them completely effective. But I also think the words which have been used by the Government draftsman are very apt. I have given very careful consideration to the Amendment, but I adhere to the view I expressed on the last occasion, that there is no necessity to change the words we have here, which are quite incapable of misapprehension, and, although it may be that the hon. and learned Gentleman's phraseology is a little more elegant than that in the Bill, still I think the words are really not capable of misconstruction. They are very short, and I think they are simple as they stand, and I therefore must adhere to them as they are at present. Amendment negatived. Further Amendment made: Leave out "and ( f) This Act shall apply only to duties of Customs and Excise and to Income Tax."—[ Mr. Cassel.] Mr. CASSEL I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the word "four" ["at the end of four months"], and to insert instead thereof the word "three." I attach considerable importance to this, because this fixes the final date by which the Finance Act of the year must be passed. As the Bill stands, it is 5th September. That is too late. The 5th August is quite late enough. It is 5th September for this reason, that within one month of 5th April the Government must introduce their Resolution. The Income Tax expires on 5th April, and they have a month under Clause 2 during which payments and deductions can still be made, although the tax is not renewed either by Resolution or by the Act, so that their Resolution may be introduced as late as 5th May. That is the last date when they can safely pass their Resolution. So that they have four months from that date, which would take them to 5th September. So far as I have been able to ascertain the facts, in recent times, before the present Government, there has never been a Government which has passed its Budget later than August, and I think there have only been very few cases where the Finance Act of the year has been passed as late as August. Even the very controversial Finance Act of 1894, under which the Estate Duties were for the first time imposed, received the Royal Assent before August. The Finance Act of 1909 was quite an exceptional case, and, so far as we are concerned, we contend that it was not a Budget at all. Those provisions in it which were really contentious could very easily have been put into a separate Bill. The contentious provisions were the Land Duties and the Licence Duties, to which this Act would not have applied at all. The Resolutions to which you wish this Act to apply must necessarily be simple Resolutions, because otherwise you would not have the machinery to bring them into operation at once. There are two reasons why I think it is of very great importance that the Finance Act should be passed at the earliest date consonant with a reasonable opportunity for adequate discussion. In the first place, assuming that you once impose a duty by Resolution under this Act, and you ultimately vary it or do not carry the Resolution into an Act of Parliament, it is almost impossible to find out the right people to pay. So that you ought to continue the period of suspense for the very minimum that is possible, having regard to the necessity of adequate discussion. The other reason is that under the general Resolution that it is expedient to amend the law of Customs and Excise, the whole financial position may be reviewed, and if hardships can be shown there is an opportunity of getting them rectified, but if you carry that very late into the year a large part of the year is already gone and you cannot remedy the injustice for that part of the year. On that point the Amendments which the Government have introduced into paragraph (a) really do not help, because that only carries you into the Second Reading, and what is of importance is that the Committee stage also, when Amendments are made on cases where hardships have been discovered, should be taken in such time that advantage can really be taken of them during the current financial year. I can give the right hon. Gentleman a case where the fact that the Committee stage of the Finance Bill was taken late in the year operated with very great hardship, and that was in connection with the Licence Duties. As soon as the attention of the Government was called to a particular defect in the Finance Act of 1910, they admitted that an Amendment was necessary. They took the Finance Bill of that year so late that the Amendment really was of no use for the financial year which was under consideration. From that point of view also I submit that it is extremely important to have the Finance Bill through as early as possible, and that circumstances are hardly conceivable under which, if financial business is proceeded with with due dilgence, it would not be possible to carry the Finance Bill through by that date. If ever circumstances arise again like the Finance Act of 1909 it will be possible to deal with the contentious parts of a Bill of that kind by a separate measure, and I do not regard that as a Finance Bill at all. I think oven some hon. Members opposite, now that they have got it through, almost admit that. For any Finance Bill to be really a Finance Bill, 5th August as the limit is quite long enough to allow for its passage. Mr. POLLOCK I beg to second the Amendment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us that his object was merely to embody in this Bill what has been the practice for generations. Let me take the last generation—the period from 1880 down to the present time. In that period of thirty-three years it will be found that, except in 1910 and 1911, in no case has it been necessary to have so long a period as four months which would be given to the Government under Sub-section (2). Four months would bring the period up to September. The dates at which the Royal Assent was given to the Finance Act since 1880 were:—1880, 24th March; 1882 and 1883, in the early days of August; 1886, 4th June; 1887, 5th July; 1888, 16th May; 1889, 31st May; 1890, 9th June; 1891, 3rd July; 1892, 20th June, 1893, 12th May; 1894, 31st July; 1895, 30th May; 1896, 7th August; 1897, 15th July; 1898, 1st July; 1899, 20th June; 1900, 9th April; 1901, 26th July; 1902, 22nd July; 1903, 30th June; 1904, 1st August; 1905, 30th June; 1906, 22nd June; 1907, 9th August; and 1908, 1st August, Having regard to these dates it is quite clear that the practice of Parliament which is to be embodied in this Bill does not require anything like so late a period as September. The Chancellor of the Exchequer's oft repeated statement is, "I merely want to embody in this Bill the true practice which has been followed for generations and more." The dates I have given are conclusive, that in no case has it been necessary to take so long a period as is proposed in the Sub-section. If the Attorney-General feels any difficulty about accepting the actual form of the Amendment proposed by my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Cassel), what would meet the case would be to put in a date, let us say, not later than 1st August, or 5th August, or something of that sort. That would really establish and give written sanction to what undoubtedly has been the practice of the House, namely, that it should not rise for its summer interval until it has disposed of the primary duty for which it is called together—the passing of the Finance Act of the year. A great many of us feel continued deep hostility to the whole of this Bill, and one of the gravest reasons we have for that hostility is that it gives so wide a margin of time to the Government of the day. We want to establish that the Government should be under the control of this House, and that they should attend to what is their primary function, namely, the passing of the Estimates for the year, and the embodying of them in the Finance Act. I appeal to the Attorney-General not only on the grounds so ably stated by my hon. and learned Friend, but also on the ground that, looking at what has been the practice for thirty years and more, so long a period as is indicated in the Sub-section is unnecessary. Some words such as I have suggested are necessary to tie the Government down—whatever Government is in power—and keep them under the control of this House. Sir RUFUS ISAACS The question raised is one which has been discussed at every stage of this Bill. It was discussed on the Resolution, on Report, on the Second Reading, and in Committee. I am not complaining of that, but the House will understand that I do not propose to go at any length into this matter again. The Mover and Seconder of the Amendment dealt a good deal with the practice in relation to the various Budgets which have been brought forward, but I would remind them that the object of the Bill is to cut down the elasticity which has hitherto been given in this matter to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We are not extending it by any means. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out to-day, we have accepted a number of Amendments of great substance which were proposed by hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House, and to whom we have been indebted for suggestions which have made the Bill better than it was when introduced. The Amendment now before the House deals with a matter on which the view of the Government has already been expressed quite clearly. An Amendment which was moved by the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil) and accepted by the Government was a very drastic proceeding, and it is in the Bill now. It is an Amendment which helps very much to limit the facilities given to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, from whatever side of the House he may be drawn. The Resolution must be introduced first of all within one month of the end of the financial year, otherwise he does not get the protection of Clause 2. That is the first limitation. The second is that the Resolution on Report, if it is to have statutory effect, must be agreed to by the House within ten sitting days after it has been passed by Committee of Ways and Means. That is another safeguard introduced for the first time in our practice in this House. There is a third, namely, that the Bill must be read a second time within twenty sitting days of the Resolution on Report being agreed to by the House. All these are, no doubt, very valuable protections which have been introduced in the Bill, and which will reduce the facilities hitherto given to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. When it is further proposed now to reduce the period from four to three months, the answer I would make is that when we accepted the Noble Lord's Amendment it was on the strict understanding that, so far as we were concerned, we would adhere to the four months' period. I know that hon. Gentlemen opposite are not bound by that, but it is right to state that we had that in view when we accepted the Noble Lord's Amendment. Under these circumstances the Government is bound to hold to the four months' period. Lord HUGH CECIL No one would complain of the attitude taken up by the Attorney-General as to the matter of form. I admit that the Government have all through acted in a friendly and conciliatory spirit with respect to this Bill. I admit also that there would be difficulty in substituting three for four months, because it would bring the date rather earlier than has been the practice hitherto. As has been pointed out, the Royal Assent has always been given before 1st August, except in a few cases, and the exceptions are so rare that they do not show that the ordinary practice has been otherwise than to bring in the Finance Bill in time to receive the Royal Assent before 1st August. There are a certain number of cases when the Royal Assent has been given to the Finance Act during the month of July. I should have liked the Government to consider whether an Amendment naming 1st August would not have been strictly consonant to their own principles, while meeting the case submitted by my hon. and learned Friend. If a proviso were put in, "In no case later than 1st August," that would make the Bill conform to usage. I would suggest to the Government that they might conveniently put in these words in order to carry out the purpose they have in view. Sir ALFRED CRIPPS I had an Amendment down substantially for the same purpose as that now before the House. I thought two months instead of four should ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)|Arnold, Sydney |Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)| ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Acland, Francis Dyke |Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. |Barnes, G. N. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. |Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)|Barton, W. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Agnew, Sir George William |Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) |Beale, Sir William Phipson | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Ainsworth, John Stirling |Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) |Beck, Arthur Cecil | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- be the period, but I shall not seek to raise that point now. The main purpose of those who support the Amendment moved by my hon. and learned Friend is to insure that the House shall have substantial and adequate discussion during the Committee stage of the Finance Bill. The Government accepted the very valuable Amendment proposed by the Noble Lord, but that Amendment stopped short in the sense that it gave a date on which you should have the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. Something more than that is necessary. Supposing you had the Second Reading of the Bill and left over the Committee stage to what is practically the holiday period, then in substance and truth we should lose that control of finance which we are all agreed the House should retain in an effective way. I think undue pressure should not be put on the Attorney-General, as representing the Government, after what has passed, to accept any other period than the one we find here, namely, four months, but I hope this matter will receive further consideration. I am afraid we shall not have much chance of discussing it here again, but I hope the Attorney-General will consider that what we want is to have a Committee stage when the conditions are such that we may hope for effective discussion. Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON It really does not appear to me to make any material difference as I read the Bill. My hon. and learned Friend has suggested that 5th August might be put in, but I should have thought that it was hardly worth while to make that Amendment. I certainly am glad that the Government have said that it is their intention, so far as they can, to resort to the normal practice and conform to the conditions which previously prevailed as regards the Budget. The Attorney-General has assured us that September is not the date which the Government have in contemplation for passing the Finance Act. Question put, "That the word 'four' stand part of the Bill." The House divided: Ayes, 266; Noes, 114. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St, George) |Hayden, John Patrick |O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bentham, George Jackson |Hayward, Evan |O'Shee, James John | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bethell, Sir J. H. |Hazleton, Richard |O'Sullivan, Timothy | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Black, Arthur W. |Helme, Sir Norval Watson |Outhwaite, R. L. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Boland, John Plus |Hemmerde, Edward George |Palmer, Godfrey Mark | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Booth, Frederick Handel |Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |Parker, James (Halifax) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bowerman, C. W. |Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) |Parry, Thomas H. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Boyle, D. (Mayo, North) |Henry, Sir Charles |Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Brace, William |Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) |Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Brady, P. J. |Higham, John Sharp |Pirie, Duncan V. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Brocklehurst, W. B. |Hinds, John |Pointer, Joseph | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bryce, J. Annan |Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. |Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Buckmaster, Stanley O. |Hodge, John |Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Burke, E. Haviland- |Hogge, James Myles |Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas |Holmes, Daniel Turner |Pringle, William M. R. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) |Holt, Richard Durning |Radford, G. H. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Byles, Sir William Pollard |Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) |Raffan, Peter Wilson | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Carr-Gomm, H. W. |Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |Reddy, M. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) |Hughes, S. L. |Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) |Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus |Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Chancellor, H. G. |John, Edward Thomas |Rendall, Athelstan | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Chapple, Dr. William Allen |Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) |Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clancy, John Joseph |Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) |Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clough, William |Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) |Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clynes, John R. |Jones, W. S. Giyn- (T. H'mts., Stepney)|Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. |Jowett, Frederick William |Robinson, Sidney | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Condon, Thomas Joseph |Joyce, Michael |Roch, Walter F. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |Keating, Matthew |Roche, Augustine (Louth, N.) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cory, Sir Clifford John |Kellaway, Frederick George |Roe, Sir Thomas | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cotton, William Francis |Kelly, Edward |Rowlands, James | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cowan, W. H. |Kennedy, Vincent Paul |Rowntree, Arnold | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) |Kilbride, Denis |Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Crawshay-Williams, Eliot |King, J. |Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Crooks, William |Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)|Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Crumley, Patrick |Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |Samuel, J (Stockton-on-Tees) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Davies, E. William (Eifion) |Lardner, James C. R. |Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) |Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) |Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |Leach, Charles |Sheehy, David | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire) |Lewis, John Herbert |Sherwell, Arthur James | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Delany, William |Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) |Shortt, Edward | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Denman, Hon. R. D. |Lundon, Thomas |Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Alisebrook | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Dickinson, W. H. |Lyell, Charles Henry |Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Dillon, John |Lynch, A. A. |Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Donelan, Captain A. |Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) |Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Doris, W. |McGhee, Richard |Snowden, Philip | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Duffy, William J. |Maclean, Donald |Soames, Arthur Wellesley | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) |MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donenal, South) |Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) |MacVeagh, Jeremian |Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) |M'Callum, Sir John M. |Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) |M'Curdy, Charles Albert |Sutherland, J. E. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Essex, Sir Richard Walter |M'Kean, John |Sutton, John E. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Falconer, J. |McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |Taylor, John W. (Durham) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Farrell, James Patrick |M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) |Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles |M'Micking, Major Gilbert |Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson |Markham, Sir Arthur Basil |Tennant, Harold John | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Ffrench, Peter |Marks, Sir George Croydon |Thomas, James Henry | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Field, William |Marshall, Arthur Harold |Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Fitzgibbon, John |Meagher, Michael |Thorne, William (West Ham) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Flavin, Michael Joseph |Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |Toulmin, Sir George | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |France, G. A. |Millar, James Duncan |Trevelyan, Charles Philip | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Gill, A. H. |Molloy, M. |Wadsworth, J. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Ginnell, L. |Molteno, Percy Alport |Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Gladstone, W. G. C. |Montagu, Hon. E. S. |Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Glanville, Harold James |Mooney, J. J. |Wardle, George J. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |Morgan, George Hay |Waring, Walter | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Goldstone, Frank |Morrell, Philip |Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)|Morison, Hector |Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) |Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |Watt, Henry A. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Greig, Colonel J. W. |Muldoon, John |Webb, H. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Griffith, Ellis J. |Munro, R. |White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) |Murphy, Martin J. |White, Patrick (Meath, North) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) |Needham, Christopher T. |Whyte, A. F. (Perth) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Guliand, John William |Neilson, Francis |Wiles, Thomas | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) |Nicholson, Sir C. N. (Doncaster) |Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Hackett, J. |Norton, Captain Cecil W. |Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) |Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Hancock, John George |Nuttall, Harry |Winfrey, Richard | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) |O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |Wing, Thomas | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Hardie, J. Keir |O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |Young, William (Perth, East) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) |O'Donnell, Thomas |Yoxall, Sir James Henry | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) |O'Dowd, John | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) |O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry |O'Malley, William | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Agg-Gardner, James Tynte |Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. |Parkes, Ebenezer | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Anstruther-Gray, Major William |Falle, Bertram Godfray |Peel, Lieut.-Colonel R. F. | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Ashley, W. W. |Fell, Arthur |Perkins, Walter F. | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Astor, Waldorf |Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert |Pollock, Ernest Murray | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Baird, J. L. |Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes |Randles, Sir John S. | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Banbury, Sir Frederick George |Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. |Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)|Gibbs, George Abraham |Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Barnston, Harry |Gilmour, Captain John |Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilion) |Glazebrook, Capt. Philip K. |Sanders, Robert A. | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks |Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) |Sanderson, Lancelot | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) |Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) |Sassoon, Sir Philip | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- |Hambro, Angus Valdemar |Spear, Sir John Ward | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bigland, Alfred |Harris, Henry Percy |Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bird, A. |Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) |Staveley-Hill, Henry | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Blair, Reginald |Hewing, William Albert Samuel |Steel-Maitland, A. D. | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- |Hibbert, Sir Henry F. |Stewart, Gershom | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Boyton, James |Hill-Wood, Samuel |Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bridgeman, W. Clive |Hoare, Samuel John Gurney |Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bull, Sir William James |Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy |Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Burn, Colonel C. R. |Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) |Talbot, Lord E. | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Butcher, J. G. |Horne, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford) |Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred |Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) |Thompson, Robert (Belfast, N.) | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cassel, Felix |Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr |Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Castlereagh, Viscount |Kerry, Earl of |Touche, George Alexander | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) |Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) |Tryon, Captain George Clement | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) |Lewisham, Viscount |Valentla, Viscount | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. |Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) |Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clay, Captain H. H. Spender |Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee |Welgall, Captain A. G. | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clive, Captain Percy Archer |Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) |Wheler, Granville C. H. | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cooper, Richard Ashmole |Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) |Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) |MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh |Wills, Sir Gilbert | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) |M'Calmont, Major Robert C. A. |Wood, John (Stalybridge) | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred |M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)|Worthington-Evans, L. | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Croft, H. P. |Malcolm, Ian |Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Dalrymple, Viscount |Mildmay, Francis Bingham |Wright, Henry Fitzherbert | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) |Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |Yate, Colonel Charles Edward | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Denniss, E. R. B, |Mount, William Arthur | | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott |Newman, John R. P. |TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Earl Winterton and Mr. Mills.| ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Duke, Henry Edward |Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Clause 2—(Payments And Deductions Made On Account Of Temporary Tax Before Renewal Of Tax) (1) Any payment or deduction made on account of a temporary tax within one month after the date of the expiration of the tax shall, if the payment or deduction would have been a legal payment or deduction if the tax had not expired, be deemed to be a legal payment or deduction, subject to the condition that if a Resolution is not passed by the Committee of Ways and Means of the House of Commons within that month for the renewal of the tax, any money so paid or deducted shall be repaid or made good, and that if the tax is ultimately renewed at a different rate, or with modifications, any amount paid or deducted which could not properly have been paid or deducted under the new conditions affecting the tax shall be repaid or made good.(2) Section ninety-five of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, shall have effect with respect to any duties imposed by the Finance Act of this or any previous year, with the substitution of a reference to that Finance Act, for any reference in that Section to "this Act," Sir A. CRIPPS I beg to propose to leave out Sub-section (1). I do not think that the meaning of this Sub-section has been sufficiently appreciated. What it means is that in cases where there is a temporary tax and the power to levy such tax has to be exercised within a given time, then, although the time within which that statutory power-might be exercised had come to an end, under this Sub-section the time would be extended for one month after the date of the expiration of the existing powers to levy such a tax. It appears to me to be a very strong proposal, when this House after full discussion as to imposing a particular tax has limited the time within which the sanction for that tax is to operate, that then under the operation of a general Bill of this kind in every instance—subject to what I am going to say in a moment—the time within which that tax can be levied should be extended to the extent of a month. It may be very important, after full discussion in this House, to limit the time for the incidence of a particular tax, and when the period of time in which there is power to levy the tax has come to an end it may be of great importance for this House to consider whether that tax should be imposed again, either in its existing form or in a modified form. But what this Clause does is this: however carefully the House may have thought over and discussed the matter before deciding that the levy of the tax should be limited to a particular period of time, there is to be in all cases under this Sub-section power to extend the time limit after it has expired. It is a very strong proposal to override by a general provision of this sort a special provision introduced in a particular case after full discussion. This proposal is quite unnecessary. In fact it is not in accordance with the rest of the Bill; and so far as there is any difficulty it could without question be easily dealt with by merely making the tax run for a sufficient time when you impose it in the first instance. The only reason why the Government are asking for this extraordinary power of extending the time for which this House has imposed a tax, is that they do not introduce the new Resolutions as regards the new financial year sufficiently early. If they introduce a Resolution sufficiently early, and if they make the tax which they impose for a sufficiently long time, Sub-section (1) of Clause 2 is wholly unnecessary. One of the worst features of the Sub-section is that it enables the Resolution as regards imposition of the new tax, to be postponed for one month after the time the old tax has expired; whereas it ought to be the essence of your practice that if the Resolution is to have statutory effect, it ought to be brought into operation before the power as regards the old tax expires. Everyone must know perfectly well that there is not the least difficulty about making a provision of that kind. This really goes beyond all the suggestions which have been made as regards the power to prevent forestalling and matters of that kind. It deliberately aims at upsetting what may be the deliberate proposal of this House after full discussion. What is the good of our saying that a particular tax is to be limited to a certain time, or that Customs Duties are not to be levied beyond a definite time, if we find that in each case the Government—and I am speaking of the Government on either side—may postpone what is the proper date for introducing the new Resolutions on which to found the Budget. By postponing the date they get fresh legislative authority for a month in reference to powers which otherwise would have expired. In my view we have given up a good deal of our control under this Bill. We have deliberately fixed a limit of time, and then, merely because the Government do not introduce their Resolution sufficiently early, that time is extended for a month. It is all very well to put in a provision of this kind, but if the House does not renew the tax, in substance everyone knows that, when deductions of this kind have once been made, there is great difficulty, expense, and trouble in ever getting the sums repaid or made good, once they get into the hands of the Treasury or the Inland Revenue. I cannot see what reason there can be for this novel suggestion. It is not really wanted as regards the obligation which we are putting in the Bill. We have given this power under the Resolution to levy a tax just as though it had statutory effect, and, under those circumstances, you seek power to postpone your Resolution in order to raise your tax under a power which has expired. Our control is really being limited in every possible direction, and not only is it being limited, but it is being made a mockery. We first of all limit the period of the tax, and then we pass a general provision that the limitation is not to be observed. What is the good of legislating under conditions of that kind? We have discussed this matter more than once, and I can see no reason whatever for this Sub-section, the omission of which I move. Mr. CASSEL I beg to second the Amendment. I have already stated my views on this point in previous discussions and have endeavoured to make them clear to the Government, who, I think, in this Sub-section, are infringing all constitutional rights. They are deliberately and without any necessity outraging all the principles of the Constitution. They have deliberately placed the whole of the bankers of this country in a difficulty, which has existed since the 5th April. Ever since the 4th of November I have urged that it was necessary for them to deal with this question before the 5th April; they would not do it. They insisted in going on with the Home Rule Bill, the Welsh Disestablishment Bill, and the Franchise Bill, and the dislocation since the 5th April is entirely due to that. So far as this particular Bill I is concerned, they have not even the excuse that they had with regard to Customs Duties and the possibility of forestalments, and it is an outrage upon the Constitution. Sir RUFUS ISAACS I have listened to the speeches made by my hon. and learned Friends, and one would imagine from what they have said that we were introducing some novelty. I am quite sure if anybody had come into this House knowing nothing of what had happened previously, either in Committee or on Report or on Second Reading, would have thought, from the speeches of the hon. and learned Gentlemen opposite, that both were correct in what they said. The fact is that what is here proposed is in accordance with the practice that has existed for the last sixty years, and previous to that for perhaps 150 years; but to hear the speeches made by both hon. Members they do not seem to be aware that—except in the year 1900, which was during the war, when Sir Michael Hicks-Beach came down in March and asked this House to pass Resolutions before the Income Tax and Tea Duty had expired—it has been the practice of this House, and not of this Government only but of Unionist administrations equally, to propose Resolutions for Income Tax and the Tea Duty during the month of April or during the month of May. Except in that one instance during the war, when the their Chancellor of the Exchequer came down at the beginning of March, it has been invariably the practice after the expiration of the financial year or of the Income Tax year, to bring in those Resolutions. I do think we have just cause of complaint when we listen to the speeches made by my hon. and learned Friend (Sir A. Cripps), who must know better, and it is most startling to hear him make these observations. My hon. and learned Friend, who possibly knows as much of this subject as anybody in the House, solemnly stated that this was a novel suggestion. Sir A. CRIPPS Hear, hear; so it is. Sir RUFUS ISAACS The right hon. Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) has himself told us that it was the practice in his time, and he took over that practice; and what we are doing is simply to put into statutory shape what has been rendered necessary, because of the decision which has been given in the Courts. If the hon. and learned Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Cassel) meant by his reiterated charges of outrages on the Constitution and by his strong language that this Sub-section is proposed in consequence of the decision of Lord Justice Parker, and that we have been compelled to put into statutory form what hitherto has been recognised as the usage under the Constitution, though not recognised by the Courts of Law—if that is what he meant, I agree that he is practically right; but we are not only not doing anything which is novel, but we have nothing in our constitutional usage which would prevent us from proposing the Resolutions in June or July. It was done by the Unionist Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1901 and in 1902, when Resolutions were proposed in June and July. I do not think they were Income Tax Resolutions, but they were financial Resolutions having relation to variations of the Sugar Duties; they were the ordinary Resolutions for the continuation of taxes. Anybody looking at the matter will see that you must have some provision of this kind for the collection of taxes. Let its see what we are legalising under this form. The Income Tax year expires on the 5th April, and unless you have a provision of this kind the effect would be that the banks would not be able to deduct the money for Income Tax, and the Treasury would be left to follow the persons and collect it from them. Everybody agrees that that is a very bad principle; certainly everybody who has been at the Treasury is familiar with the difficulty of following persons to get the Income Tax from them. The hon. and learned Member for South Bucks says that what we can do is to introduce our Resolutions before the end of the Income Tax year, but both Liberal Governments and Unionist Governments for many years have followed the usual practice, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, following this practice, which is based on sound common sense, must at the end of the financial year make a survey in order to see how matters stand before proposing his Resolutions. If he adopted what the hon. and learned Gentleman suggests, he would be in the position of having to propose the Resolutions before the end of the Income Tax year, of having to make his financial statement before he had considered what was required, before he knew whether he should lower or raise a duty, and before he knew whether he could take anything off the Tea or Sugar Duties, or had to raise those duties. Surely that is not advisable. All we ask is that we should have this power with regard to the reimposition or renewal of taxes which have existed in the previous year, and which are not taxes for more than eighteen months. The whole object is to confine the provision to the Income Tax and Tea Duty, which come up for discussion every year. We are not seeking by this Clause to do anything novel. The only novelty is that by Sub-section (1) we are limiting the period to one month, and we are only claiming the period of one month in order that there may be time to survey all the circumstances before dealing with the Income Tax or Tea Duty. It is admitted by almost everybody in the House that a Statute must be passed to legalise the practice which has existed, but we say that by what we are proposing we make the period more limited, and we put upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer the obligation to introduce his Budget within a month, as provided by the Sub-section. I submit we are amply justified by the practice which hitherto existed. 7.0 P.M. Lord HUGH CECIL I think the Attorney-General's speech is an astonishing revelation of the mind of the Government that it makes no difference that you are altering custom and usage into a Statute. I think it makes an immense difference, and that my hon. and learned Friends are justified in describing it as a complete novelty. Instead of a custom which rested on general consent you are taking coercive power by Statute which makes an immense difference. It is to miss the whole point of the discussion to say that you are leaving the thing just as it is now. My hon. and learned Friends suggest that it is not necessary and that it is a very bad thing to do, inasmuch as the Constitution depends on the authority of Parliament and certainly not on the authority of a single Resolution of the House of Commons, and therefore taxation should be paid on the authority of Parliament. Is this necessary in this particular instance, and are we driven by force of circumstances to do what the Government, I think, would agree is a very undesirable thing in itself? Surely not. Supposing you made your Income Tax or Tea Duty last for fifteen months instead of twelve months, the whole difficulty is met. The Attorney-General said it would confuse the finances. It would do nothing of the kind. The Attorney-General also used the argument that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have to make up his Budget without knowing what was the return of the tax. He would not. He would know what the return was every year, which is all he wants to know. The fact that the tax would have legal validity for three months more would not bring about the smallest element of confusion. In some respects now that is the practice with some temporary taxes which last up to the 30th June or the 31st July. Without the Amendment what it really comes to is this, that you do alter your constitutional way of taxing by Act of Parliament, and you adopt an unconstitutional way by giving the power to tax by Resolution. The Attorney-General said that the use of the Resolutions rested on general consent. Therefore it differed from what you are doing now. You are giving the House of Commons legal authority to tax by mere decree. That is an immense novelty, and, instead of trying to cut that down and to make the innovation as small as you can, you deliberately refuse to adopt machinery which would be perfectly constitutional, and which would give you all you want without trouble or inconvenience. In the wantonness of oppression you insist on having this Clause, which is not in the least necessary, and which is an outrage on the constitutional traditions of the country. I do not think the language of my hon. Friends was at all too strong. This shows how very indifferent the Government really are as to preserving the traditions of the Constitution. The Attorney-General tells us "we accepted some of your Amendments." The Government cannot get over their moderation. Like Lord Clive, they stand astonished at their own moderation. The Supreme Cabinet has so far condescended that the suggestions of the House of Commons are not rejected altogether. Some Amendments have been accepted, and we ought to be thankful for the crumbs that fall to us from the rich man's table. We are still to try and imagine that they are our industrious servants carrying out the government in accordance with the behests of the representatives of the people. We are not yet accustomed to the servile state to which they are anxious to reduce us, and protest against their arguments. Mr. POLLOCK I do really regret the language which has been used by the Attorney-General in reference to my hon. and learned Friends. It is all very well to talk of usage, but the usage was abused by the Government, and the Attorney-General must not be surprised if a certain number resent, and very strongly resent, the necessity of passing a Clause like this, because of the abuse by the Government of a power hitherto given to them by ordinary practice. May I also remind the House that this Clause does not merely refer to the Government deducting the tax, but it gives power to everybody to make the deduction from Income Tax—power hitherto used sparingly. That is a vital difference, and it is to me a matter of great surprise that the Attorney-General did not appreciate the observations made by my hon and learned Friend. This Clause, for good or ill, legalises any --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) |Duffy, William J. |Hughes, Spencer Leigh | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Acland, Francis Dyke |Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) |Illingworth, Percy H. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Agnew, Sir George William |Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) |Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Arnold, Sydney |Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) |John, Edward Thomas | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. |Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) |Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) |Essex, Sir Richard Walter |Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) |Falconer, J. |Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) |Farrell, James Patrick |Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)| --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) |Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles |Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Barnes, G. N. |Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson |Jowett, Frederick William | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs) |Ffrench, Peter |Joyce, Michael | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Barton, William |Field, William |Keating, Matthew | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Beale, Sir William Phipson |Fitzgibbon, John |Kellaway, Frederick George | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bentham, George Jackson |Flavin, Michael |Kelly, Edward | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bethell, Sir J. H. |France, G. A. |Kennedy, Vincent Paul | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Black, Arthur W. |Furness, Stephen |Kilbride, Denis | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Boland, John Pius |Gill, A. H. |King, J. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Booth, Frederick Handel |Ginnell, L. |Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bowerman, C. W. |Gladstone, W. G. C. |Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) |Glanville, H. J. |Lardner, James C. R. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Brace, William |Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Brady, P. J. |Goldstone, Frank |Leach, Charles | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Brocklehurst, William B. |Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)|Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bryce, J. Annan |Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) |Lundon, Thomas | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Buckmaster, Stanley O. |Greig, Colonel James William |Lyell, Charles Henry | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Burke, E. Haviland- |Griffith, Ellis J. |Lynch, A. A. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas |Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) |Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)|Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) |McGhee, Richard | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Byles, Sir William Pollard |Gulland, John William |Maclean, Donald | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Carr-Gomm, H. W. |Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) |MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) |Hackett, J. |Macpherson, James Ian | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cawley, H. T. (Heywood) |Hall, Frederick (Normanton) |MacVeagh, Jeremiah | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Chancellor, H. G. |Hancock, John George |M'Callum, Sir John M. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Chapple, Dr. William Allen |Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |M'Curdy, Charles Albert | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clancy, John Joseph |Hardie, J. Keir |M'Kean, John | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clough, William |Harvey, T. S. (Leeds, West) |McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clynes, John R. |Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. |Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry |M'Micking, Major Gilbert | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Condon, Thomas Joseph |Hayden, John Patrick |Markham, Sir Arthur Basil | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |Hayward, Evan |Marks, Sir George Croydon | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cory, Sir Clifford John |Hazleton, Richard |Marshall, Arthur Harold | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cotton, William Francis |Helme, Sir Norval Watson |Meagher, Michael | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cowan, W. H. |Hemmerde, Edward George |Meehan, Francis B. (Leitrim, N.) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) |Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |Millar, James Duncan | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Crooks, William |Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) |Molloy, Michael | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Crumley, Patrick |Henry, Sir Charles |Molteno, Percy Alport | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Davies, Ellis William (Elfion) |Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) |Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) |Higham, John Sharp |Montagu, Hon. E. S. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)|Hinds, John |Mooney, John J. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) |Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. |Morgan, George Hay | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Delany, William |Hodge, John |Morrell, Philip | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Denman, Hon. R. D. |Hogge, James Myles |Morison, Hector | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Dickinson, W. H. |Holmes, Daniel Turner |Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Dillon, John |Holt, Richard Durning |Muldoon, John | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Donelan, Captain A. |Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) |Munro, Robert | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Doris, William |Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |Murphy, Martin J. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- deduction, whether by mere habit or under the authority of a Treasury Minute or how it comes to be made. Once you deduct a certain sum and call that Income Tax, that deduction is made legal. It is only fair that the House should understand what is being done, and that legality can be claimed not only for a Government Department, but by a bank or agent or any person on those grounds. I think the observations of the Attorney-General are not called for. Question put, "That the words, 'any payment or deduction made on account of a,' stand part of the Bill." The House divided: Ayes, 266; Noes, 109. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Needham, Christopher T. |Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |Tennant, Harold John | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Neilson, Francis |Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |Thomas, James Henry | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)|Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Norton, Captain C. W. |Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |Thorne, William (West Ham) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |Toulmin, Sir George | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Nuttall, Harry |Robinson, Sidney |Trevelyan, Charles Philips | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |Wadsworth, J. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |Roche, Augustine (Louth) |Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |Roe, Sir Thomas |Walters, Sir John Tudor | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Donnell, Thomas |Rowlands, James |Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Dowd, John |Rowntree, Arnold |Wardle, George J. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |Waring, Walter | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Malley, William |Samuel J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. |Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Shee, James John |Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)|Watt, Henry A. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Sullivan, Timothy |Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |Webb, H. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Outhwaite, R. L. |Sheehy, David |Wedgwood, Josiah C. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Palmer, Godfrey Mark |Sherwell, Arthur James |White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Parker, James (Halifax) |Shortt, Edward |White, Patrick (Meath, North) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Parry, Thomas H. |Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook |Whyte, A. F. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |Wiles, Thomas | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |Williams, John (Glamorgan) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Pirie, Duncan V. |Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim) |Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Pointer, Joseph |Snowden, P. |Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |Soames, Arthur Wellesley |Winfrey, Richard | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |Wing, Thomas | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Pringle, William M. R. |Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Radford, G. H. |Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |Young, W. (Perthshire, East) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Raffan, Peter Wilson |Sutherland, J. E. |Yoxall, Sir James Henry | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Reddy, M. |Sutton, John E. | | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |Taylor, John W. (Durham) |TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Wedgwood Benn and Mr. W. Jones.| ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Rendall, Athelstan |Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) | | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Agg-Gardner, James Tynte |Fitzroy, Hon. E. A. |Pollock, Ernest Murray | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Ashley, W. W. |Gastrell, Major W. Houghton |Randles, Sir John S. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Baird, J. L. |Gibbs, G. A. |Rolleston, Sir John | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Baldwin, Stanley |Gilmour, Captain John |Royds, Edmund | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Banbury, Sir Frederick George |Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. |Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)|Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) |Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Barnston, Harry |Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) |Sanders, Robert Arthur | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) |Haddock, George Bahr |Sanderson, Lancelot | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks |Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) |Sassoon, Sir Philip | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- |Hambro, Angus Valdemar |Spear, Sir John Ward | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Rigland, Alfred |Harris, Henry Percy |Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bird, A. |Harrison-Braodley, H. B. |Staveley-Hill, Henry | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- |Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) |Steel-Maitland, A. D. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bridgeman, W. Clive |Hewing, William Albert Samuel |Stewart, Gershom | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Burn, Colonel C. R. |Hill-Wood, Samuel |Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Butcher, John George |Hoare, S. J. G. |Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred |Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy |Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cassel, Felix |Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) |Talbot, Lord E. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Castlereagh, Viscount |Horne, E. (Surrey Guildford) |Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) |Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) |Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. |Jessel, Captain Herbert M. |Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clay, Captain H. H. Spender |Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr |Touche, George Alexander | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clive, Captain Percy Archer |Kerry, Earl of |Tryon, George Clement | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cooper, Richard Ashmole |Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) |Valentia, Viscount | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) |Lewisham, Viscount |Warde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) |Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee |Weigall, Captain A. G. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Croft, H. P. |Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) |Weston, Colonel J. W. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Dalrymple, Viscount |Lyttelton, Hon, J. C. (Droitwich) |Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) |MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh |Wills, Sir Gilbert | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Denniss, E. R. B. |M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)|Winterton, Earl | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott |Malcolm, Ian |Wood, John (Stalybridge) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Du Cros, Arthur Philip |Mildmay, Francis Bingham |Worthington-Evans, L. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Duke, Henry Edward |Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas |Wright, Henry Fitzherbert | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. |Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |Yale, Colonel C. E. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Falle, Bertram Godfray |Mount, William Arthur | | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Fell, Arthur |Newman, John R. P. |TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir A. Cripps and Major M'Calmont.| ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert |Peel, Lieut.-Colonel R. F. | | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | | | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amendment made: After the word "the" ["passed by the Committee of Ways and Means"], insert the words "House of Commons or by the."—[ Mr. McKenna.] The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. McKenna) I beg to move, after the word "Commons" ["Committee of Ways and Means of the House of Commons"], to insert the words "(if that Committee is a Committee of the Whole House)." Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON As I was absent from the House just now, I think it is only right that I should take this opportunity of thanking the Government for the way in which they have met me. There was considerable feeling on both sides of the House as to the possibility of a very unfortunate precedent being set up, and I thank the Government for the action they have taken. Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to. Further Amendments made: After the word "tax" ["renewal of the tax"], insert the words "or if such a Resolution is passed within that month but ceases to have statutory effect under this Act."—[Mr. Cassel.] At the end of Sub-section (1), insert the words: "For the purposes of this provision, the expression 'temporary tax' means a tax which has been imposed or renewed for a limited period not exceeding eighteen months, and was in force or imposed during the previous financial year."—[Mr. McKenna.] Mr. CASSEL I beg to move, to leave out Sub-section (2). This is really a remarkable Sub-section. I think that what the Government meant to say was: "This Section shall apply to payments and deductions made before the passing of this Act." But instead of putting it in that way, they have adopted the involved wording of this provision. The Sub-section deals with two separate matters. The first is the Finance Act of this year. We have been accustomed to having to amend the legislation of this Government very soon after it has passed. We have had cases where their legislation has had to be amended in the same Session, and other cases where it has had to be amended in the next Session, but this Sub-section proposes to amend an Act before it comes into existence at all. It is not merely counting one's chickens before they are hatched; it is cutting their legs off before they are hatched. What is the effect of this Sub-section? It says that duties imposed by the Finance Act of this year shall have a certain effect. But they cannot have any effect until the Finance Act of this year is passed. What do the Government really intend so far as the Finance Act of this year is concerned? I submit that the proper procedure would be to put the Section into that Act when we know what the contents of that Act are. The Government might as well insert the words "any future Act." They have not accomplished the purpose they intended, and the bankers of the country are anxious to know what is really meant. I submit that this Sub-section does not legalise any deductions made between 5th April and 22nd April, assuming that the Income Tax Resolution is passed on that day until the Finance Act of this year is passed. With regard to previous years, what is the object of the Government? Some of the old Finance Acts contain provisions making them retrospective, but in a great many cases those provisions were omitted. I suppose that the reference to previous years in this Sub-section is inserted because of the apprehension that somebody might bring an action to recover sums which have been deducted in the past under those Finance Acts from which the retrospective Clauses were omitted. If that is so, I should have thought that this was really a charging section. I wonder why the Government attach such special importance to the words "Finance Act." The term has only been in use since 1894. If the proposal was necessary for those years when the Finance Act was called by that name, it would be equally necessary for the years in which it was called the Customs and Inland Revenue Act. The House is entitled to know what the Government really mean by this Sub-section. Mr. HOHLER I beg to second the Amendment. Sir RUFUS ISAACS This Sub-section by no means imposes a charge, nor is there anything in the words of the Section incorporated which imposes any charge. What the proposal does is that it legalises deductions which have been made, and it makes the operation of this Sub-section conditional upon the duties being imposed by the Finance Act of this year or of previous years. In so far as it relates to this year, all that it does is to say that if the duties are imposed by the Finance Act certain results will follow. As regards previous years it makes really the same provision, not that Income Tax shall be charged, but that if deduction has been made in respect of it, that it shall not be deemed to be illegal. I explained when we discussed the matter in Committee, what the main objects of this provision are, but I will explain it again as the hon. and learned Member asks me to do so. If you do not pass a Clause either in these words or to this effect, the result would be that for past years, now that the Courts have declared that the bank cannot deduct until the Act has been passed, those who are properly liable to the Income Tax would be able to claim against the banks, or the brokers, or the agents who deducted the tax as in previous years before the Act had been passed, on the ground that they had no right to make that deduction at that time. It does not affect the liability to pay Income Tax. That is imposed by previous Acts. What it does is to say that no one shall be able to claim against the bank for the past sixty years—subject to the Statute of Limitations—for acting upon what was the recognised practice during all this period, and which had continued up to the last two or three years, when it was said that the Government had begun to introduce its Budget very late. Take, if you do not make a provision of this kind, the case of some person who is abroad, and who at the time had securities in the hands of the bank. The bank, assuming that the Income Tax was properly chargeable, might deduct according to the practice which has prevailed, but that the Courts have now said had no validity. Consequently, if the bank were sued, the bank would be held to have made a deduction that it had no right to make. How, then, do you propose to get the Income Tax from such people? It is clear that they are liable to pay, and have paid, and it is quite clear that the new Statute which we are now passing imposes no liability which did not exist before. How do you propose to reach those persons who have gone out of the country in respect of the Income Tax for which they are properly liable? Hitherto you have rested upon the practice. Now that you cannot you must do something in order to give validity to what was the practice, and to amend an Act which was defective, though the usage was that recognised! I cannot see that anybody can suggest that all persons in these circumstances should be entitled to get back their Income Tax! That would be the effect of it if they sued the bank, and the bank would naturally say to the authorities, as every lawyer knows, "You must pay us back the money for which we have been sued." The Treasury would be left in the position of having nobody to recover Income Tax from, and people who were liable for it would go scoot free instead of paying their proper contribution in respect of the tax which was imposed upon them, properly validated by Act of Parliament. It is clear that it is necessary that some such Clause as this should be put in. Whether there might possibly be some other Clause devised is really hardly worth discussing. Sir A. CRIPPS I think the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General has not appreciated the points of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for St. Pancras, or he is unable to answer them. What the hon. and learned Gentleman said was that this Section should not have any effect as regards the duties imposed by the Finance Act of this year, and until that Act had been passed. Therefore the Section is quite useless to meet the time between 5th April last year and the time the first Resolution passed on the 22nd April; it does not operate to legalise what is done during that period in any sort of way at all. What I am putting to the Attorney-General is this: The desire is to legalise, I take it, first of all in this year, duties which may be collected or Income Tax which may be deducted between 5th April and 22nd April—which we suppose is the time that the real Resolution will come into operation. This particular Sub-section then cannot have that operation at all. It does not operate or attach until certain duties have been imposed by the Finance Act of this year. The proper time to introduce any proposal of this kind would be in the same Act in which were imposed the duties. As regards the main difficulties, this does not meet them in any sort of way. In face of the explanations that the Attorney-General has given, I want to say that this proposal is not only objectionable, but very strongly objectionable. I wonder how many hon. Members have looked into Section 95 of the Finance Act of 1910? That was passed in a Bill which in itself was passed under very exceptional circumstances and conditions in an extraordinary week to deal with irregularities—because, as we all know, very special irregularities attached to the Finance Act of 1910. The Dissolution took place between the introduction of the Budget and the passing of the Act. Section 95 goes quite outside what is necessary in any normal case and is directed to extraordinary conditions which are not likely to recur. The only way in which this Section would operate would be in regard to duties imposed by any Finance Act of this year. There are no irregularities which we have got to make right. There is not the slightest question in regard to matters of this kind, nor has this point been raised. But you have here a most complicated suggestion going far beyond the necessities which the Attorney-General suggested, and having no operation whatever, because until the duties have been imposed it does not attach; whereas the difficulty arises before the duties have been imposed and, indeed, before the Resolution is passed on which these duties will be imposed. It is absolutely waste paper. The Sub-section --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) |Dickinson, W. H. |Hinds, John | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Agnew, Sir George William |Dillon, John |Hobhouse, Rt. Roil. Charles E. H. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Arnold, Sydney |Donelan, Captain A. |Hodge, John | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. |Doris, William |Hogge, James Myles | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) |Duffy, William J. |Holmes, Daniel Turner | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) |Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) |Holt, Richard Durning | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) |Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) |Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Barnes, G. N. |Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) |Hughes, S. L. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs)|Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) |Illingworth, Percy H. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Barton, W. |Essex, Sir Richard Walter |Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Beale, Sir William Phipson |Falconer, James |John, Edward Thomas | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Beck, Arthur Cecil |Farrell, James Patrick |Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bentham, George Jackson |Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles |Jones H. Haydn (Merioneth) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bethell, Sir J. H. |Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson |Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Black, Arthur W. |Ffrench, Peter |Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)| --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Boland, John Pius |Field, William |Janes, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Booth, Frederick Handel |Fitzgibbon, John |Jowett, F. W. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bowerman, C. W. |Flavin, Michael Joseph |Joyce, Michael | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) |Furness, Stephen W. |Keating, Matthew | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Brace, William |Gill, A. H. |Kellaway, Frederick George | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Brady, P. J. |Ginnell, Laurence |Kelly, Edward | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Brocklehurst, W. B. |Gladstone, W. G. C. |Kennedy, Vincent Paul | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bryce, J. Annan |Glanville, H. J. |Kilbride, Denis | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Buckmaster, Stanley O. |Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |King, Joseph | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Burke, E. Haviland- |Goldstone, Frank |Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas |Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)|Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Byles, Sir William Pollard |Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) |Lardner, James C. R. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Carr-Gomm, H. W. |Greig, Colonel J. W. |Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood)|Griffith, Ellis J. |Leach, Charles | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Chancellor, Henry G. |Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) |Lewis, John Herbert | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Chapple, Dr. William Allen |Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) |Lundon, Thomas | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clancy, John Joseph |Gulland, John William |Lyell, Charles Henry | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clough, William |Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) |Lynch, A. A. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clynes, John R. |Hackett, J. |Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Condon, Thomas Joseph |Hall, Frederick (Narmanton) |McGhee, Richard | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |Hancock, J. G. |MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cory, Sir Clifford John |Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |Macpherson, James Ian | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cotton, William Francis |Hardie, J. Keir |MacVeagh, Jeremiah | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cowan, W. H. |Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) |M'Callum, Sir John M. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) |Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |M'Curdy, C. A. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Crawshay-Williams, Eliot |Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry |M'Kean, John | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Crooks, William |Hayden, John Patrick |McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Crumley, Patrick |Hayward, Evan |M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Davies, E. William (Elfion) |Helme, Sir Norval Watson |Markham, Sir Arthur Basil | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) |Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |Marks, Sir George Croydon | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)|Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.) |Marshall, Arthur Harold | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Delany, William |Henry, Sir Charles |Meagher, Michael | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Denman, Hon. R. D. |Higham, John Sharp |Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gives a sort of indemnity against irregularities which we ought never to admit in the very large and exceptional form and under the special conditions of the 1910 Act. I do not suppose a single hon. Member, except the legal Members, have looked into that Section 95. If they do they will see it goes far beyond the necessities referred to. It is a long Section, containing many Sub-sections, and belonging to abnormal conditions which attached to that year and are never likely to arise again. I entirely agree with what has been said by my hon. and learned Friend who moved this Amendment. Question put, "That the words, 'Section ninety-five of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, shall have effect with respect to any duties imposed by the Finance Act of this,' stand part of the Bill." The House divided: Ayes, 246; Noes, 96. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Millar, James Duncan |Pointer, Joseph |Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Molloy, Michael |Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Molteno, Percy Alport |Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |Sutherland, J. E. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Mond, Sir Alfred M. |Pringle, William M. R. |Sutton, John E. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Montagu, Hon. E. S. |Radford, G. H. |Taylor, John W. (Durham) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Mooney, John J. |Raffan, Peter Wilson |Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Morgan, George Hay |Reddy, Michael |Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Morrell, Phillip |Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |Thomas, J. H. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Morison, Hector |Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |Thorne, W. (West Ham) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |Rendall, Athelstan |Toulmin, Sir George | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Muldoon, John |Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |Wadsworth, J. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Munro, R. |Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Murphy, Martin J. |Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |Walters, Sir John Tudor | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Needham, Christopher T. |Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Neilson, Francis |Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |Wardle, George J. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)|Robinson, Sidney |Waring, Walter | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Nuttall, Harry |Roche, Augustine (Louth) |Watt, Henry A. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |Roe, Sir Thomas |Webb, H. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |Rowlands, James |Wedgwood, Josiah C. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |Rowntree, Arnold |White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Donnell, Thomas |Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |White, Patrick (Meath, North) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Dowd, John |Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |Whyte, A. F. (Perth) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |Scanlan, Thomas |Wiles, Thomas | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. |Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Malley, William |Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)|Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |Sheehy, David |Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Shce, James John |Shortt, Edward |Winfrey, Richard | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |O'Sullivan, Timothy |Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook |Wing, Thomas | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Outhwaite, R. L. |Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Parker, James (Halifax) |Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |Young, William (Perthshire, East) | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Parry, Thomas H. |Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |Yoxall, Sir James Henry | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |Snowden, Philip | | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |Stamen, Arthur Wellesley |TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Wedgwood Benn and Mr. W. Jones.| ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Pirie, Duncan V. |Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert | | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Agg-Gardner, James Tynte |Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert |Peel, Lieut.-Colonel R. F. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Ashley, Wilfrid W. |Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes |Pollock, Ernest Murray | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Baird, John Lawrence |Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. |Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Baldwin, Stanley |Gastrell, Major W. Houghton |Rolleston, Sir John | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) |Gilmour, Captain John |Royds, Edmund | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bernston, Harry |Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) |Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) |Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) |Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- |Haddock, George Bahr |Sanders, Robert Arthur | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bigland, Alfred |Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) |Sanderson, Lancelot | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bird, Alred |Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) |Spear, Sir John Ward | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Blair, Reginald |Hambro, Angus Valdemar |Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-|Harris, Henry Percy |Staveley-Hill, Henry | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Bridgman, William Clive |Harrison-Broadley, H. B. |Steel-Maitland, A. D. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Burn, Colonel C. R. |Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) |Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Butcher, John George |Hewins, William Albert Samuel |Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred |Hill-Wood, Samuel |Talbot, Lord Edmund | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cassel, Felix |Hoare, Samuel John Gurney |Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cave, George |Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) |Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.) |Houston, Robert Paterson |Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. |Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.) |Touche, George Alexander | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Clive, Captain Percy Archer |Jessel, Captain H. M. |Tryon, Captain George Clement | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham |Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr |Valentia, Viscount | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cooper, Richard Ashmole |Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) |Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred |Lewisham, Viscount |Weigall, Captain A. G. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Croft, Henry Page |Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee |Weston, Colonel J. W. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Dalrymple, Viscount |Lowe, Sir F. W. (Edgbaston, Birm.) |Wheler, Granville C. H. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) |Lyttelten, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) |Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott |MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh |Wills, Sir Gilbert | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Du Cros, Arthur Philip |M'Calmont, Major Robert C. A. |Wood, John (Stalybridge) | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Duke, Henry Edward |M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)|Yate, Colonel C. E. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. |Malcolm, Ian | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |False, Bertram Godfray |Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Hohler and Mr. Denniss.| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Fell, Anther |Nield, Herbert | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. CASSEL I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the word "this" ["Finance Act of this or any previous year"]. I move this Amendment for the purpose of endeavouring to get an explanation from the Attorney-General, which he did not give me on the last Amendment. This is a matter in which the bankers are very much interested. They want to know what has to be done between the period of the 5th and 22nd April. During that time the interest of millions of securities is falling due, so it is a very large question, and I should like to have an explanation, as this Act will really have no effect in protecting the bankers with regard to the deductions made during that period until the Finance Act of this year passes. If it does not protect them until the Finance Act of this year is passed, what is the use of putting it into the Act? It is quite a novel principle to amend an Act before it is passed. That is the arrangement which the Government is proposing. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to tell us specifically whether the bankers can rely upon this quite apart from the Finance Act of this year, so as to be protected between the 5th and 22nd April. Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORD I beg to second the Amendment. Sir RUFUS ISAACS What I said of The object of this Amendment is to of this Sub-section is not to impose a charge, but to give an indemnity in respect to any deductions made. The duties imposed by the Finance Act will be legalised by Sub-section (1). Sub-section (1) would impose the duty in the Finance Act, and then the deductions made in pursuance of that will be legalised. Of course, they will not be legalised by this Sub-section until you have imposed the duties. Mr. CASSEL What effect will it have? Sir RUFUS ISAACS It will have effect once the duties are imposed. It does not impose duties, because, if it did, it would be a charging Section. But what it does is to say that when the Act is passed and the precise duties have been imposed that if deductions have been made in the previous fortnight or three weeks there shall be authorised deductions, and it gives indemnity for deductions so made. Lord HUGH CECIL The point really is that on the 22nd April they would be illegal, but that the subsequent enactment may make them legal. If the world came to an end on the 22nd April, these taxes would have no effect. Sir RUFUS ISAACS And no action could be brought. Lord HUGH CECIL That is true. I see no objection in putting that into the Bill, because in the interval they are illegal. Mr. CASSEL In view of the explanation given, I do not press the Amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Mr. CASSEL I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to add the words, "but so as not to prejudice or affect any pending proceedings on the decision of any Court of Law, or any matter in respect of which the decision of a Court of Law was given prior to the passing of the Act." The object of this Amendment is to save the position of Mr. Gibson Bowles. I am sure the Government would not wish to retrospectively legislate so as to entitle the Bank of England to bring an action against Mr. Gibson Bowles, and to recover the very sum which in his action it was decided they were not entitled to. I tried to make that clear in the Committee stage, and I hope, so far as Mr. Gibson Bowles is concerned, it will be made clear. Sir RUFUS ISAACS I cannot accept the Amendment in these words, but I will accept an Amendment to give effect to what the hon. Gentleman wishes. If there is any fear that by reason of this Sub-section some action might be brought by the Bank of England against Mr. Gibson Bowles of the same nature as that in which he succeeded I have no objection to putting in words which would guard against that. There is no intention by the Bank of England of taking any such step. There are other means of reaching Mr. Gibson Bowles and compelling him to pay the tax properly due. Although I do not for a moment anticipate that such action will be taken. I am prepared to meet the hon. Gentleman to this extent, to insert words to prevent this applying to any past proceedings in a Court of Law. There are difficulties in regard to pending proceedings, but so far as I am aware there are no pending proceedings, but in view of the discussion in Committee, as the hon. and learned Gentleman will recognise, there might be proceedings before the Royal Assent is given to the Act. I think the better words would be the words on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Kingston (Mr. Cave), and if the hon. Gentleman moves his Amendment in this form, "but this provision shall not affect any past proceedings in any Court of Law," I shall be prepared to accept it. Mr. CASSEL I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Mr. CAVE I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to add the words "but this provision shall not affect any past proceeding in any Court of Law." Question put, and agreed to. Mtn. Title "To give statutory effect for a limited period to Resolutions varying or renewing taxation, and to make provision with respect to payments and deductions made on account of any temporary tax between the dates of the expiration and renewal of the tax." Mr. CASSEL I beg to move, at the end to insert the words "and to amend the laws of Customs and Inland Revenue including Excise." I think the title must be amended by putting in the words which are in the Finance Act in regard to amending the law of Customs. Mr. POLLOCK I beg to second the Amendment. Sir RUFUS ISAACS I do not think there is any necessity to amend the Title. All we are doing is to provide for deductions which have to be made, and for the provision and collection of taxes. It is not necessary to insert these words, and I am quite sure it is not desirable to add to the Title of a Bill any unnecessary word. Mr. CASSEL I do not desire to press this to a Division if the Government refuse to take advantage of a proposal to have their Title put right for them. I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Bill to be read the third time upon Monday next (21st April). Adjournment Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Gulland.] Adjourned accordingly at One minute after Eight o'clock.