Scotland Housing, Prestwick 21. Sir T. Moore asked the Secretary of State for Scotland, in view of the fact that the Burgh of Prestwick is short of 650 houses to meet the needs of the homeless, what plans he proposes to enable the town council to overcome the shortage. The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Thomas Fraser) I understand that the building industry in this area is already fully engaged, but I shall be glad to consider any proposals from the council or the hon. and gallant Member to increase production. Sir T. Moore But the Joint Under-Secretary knows very well that the council themselves have put forward suggestions for the last five years. Will he tell us the cause of this tragic position of housing in Prestwick and Scotland generally? Is it because Scotland is not getting its fair share of materials, or what is the reason? Mr. Fraser The hon. and gallant Member will know that at Prestwick they have 28 houses under construction, and that 76 additional houses have been allocated but not yet begun. The only sort of representation that the hon. and gallant Member has made up to now is to allocate more houses, or to allow more houses to be built on private account. In addition to these houses, they also have about 20 houses being built on private account. Commander Galbraith Can we be told, in the light of these figures, how long it will take Prestwick to get the 650 houses promised? Sir William Darling In view of the reply, does the Joint Under-Secretary admit that the local authority has failed as the chosen instrument for house building? Mr. Fraser The hon. and gallant Member is asking me to assist the chosen instrument to build more houses, and I am wondering why they have not built more houses out of their allocation. Fishermen (Houses) 22. Sir T. Moore asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his policy in regard to the provision of houses for fishermen; and if they will have any priority, as compared with other housing requirements. Mr. T. Fraser As explained in a recent letter to the hon. and gallant Member, my right hon. Friend is ready to consider the special circumstances of particular fishing areas where housing difficulties are hampering recruitment to the industry from other areas. Twenty additional houses have just been allocated to Ayr County Council for this special purpose. Sir T. Moore The hon. Member will appreciate that there is great disquiet among the fishing population as to whether they are not being overlooked or left behind in this scramble for the houses that do not exist. Will he therefore do something to try to ease the concern which is at present disturbing them? Mr. Fraser I understood that the scramble is for the houses that do exist. The selection of tenants for houses is a matter for the local authorities concerned. We are concerned only to allocate additional houses where there is to be an increase in the population. Research In Education (Grant) 23. Mr. Hamilton asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what amount of assistance he proposes to give to the Scottish Council for Research in Education in the current financial year. The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Miss Herbison) The Council's grant is the sum by which the cost of then-approved programme of work exceeds their income from other sources. The estimate of their requirements for their current financial year has not yet been received, but the grant for their last financial year will be about £1,950. White Fish Industry 24. Mr. Henderson Stewart asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he can now state his conclusions on the present state and future prospects of the fishing industry following upon decontrol of prices, abandonment of the flat rate transport scheme and the continuing rise in costs of fishing gear; and what action he proposes to take to preserve the vitality and the defence potential of the industry. Mr. T. Fraser I cannot add to what the Prime Minister said last week, that a statement will be made as soon as possible. Mr. Stewart Would the hon. Gentleman kindly answer the first part of the Question—whether he has reached any 'conclusion? Are we to take it that he has reached no conclusion? Mr. Fraser If we had reached conclusions we should be able to make a statement and we should make a statement. It is a very serious matter, it is being very fully, carefully and urgently considered, and as soon as possible a statement will be made. Mr. Grimond Can the Joint Under-Secretary of State say whether this inquiry covers both sides of the fishing industry? Will his statement cover both the herring industry and the white fish industry? Mr. Fraser No. This is an inquiry into the white fish industry. Captain Duncan Can the hon. Gentleman give any idea of the date when the Government's conclusions will be reached? Mr. Fraser No. Housing Survey 25. Mr. Henderson Stewart asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress has been made with the housing survey; if the reports on county and burgh surveys are to be published separately as they are completed; and to what extent the survey is designed to show the amount of useful repair and renovation work which can quickly be done to existing houses in town and country. Mr. T. Fraser My right hon. Friend has asked the associations of local authorities for their views on the making of this survey. It will not be possible to give any details until the associations have considered the matter. Mr. Stewart Are we to understand that after the associations have provided recommendations to the Minister, he will then come to conclusions on this matter? Mr. Fraser The position is that we are not entitled to go forward to make a survey without the co-operation of the local authorities. We are consulting with the local authorities' associations at the present time. It would be unfair of me to state any details, even of any schemes which we have put forward, until we have had those discussions with the authorities. Dunragit Estate, Wigtownshire (Profit) 26. Mr. McKie asked the Secretary of State for Scotland on what basis of computation the profits on the estate of Dunragit, Wigtownshire, owned by the Department of Agriculture for Scotland for 1948–49 were arrived at. Mr. T. Fraser The trading profit for Dunragit for the 16 months ended 31st March, 1949, was computed on the value of farm assets as at 31st March, 1949, plus income during the period of accounts, less the value of farm assets as at 1st December, 1947, and expenditure during the period of accounts. Mr. McKie Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that a completely normal course was followed on this occasion and that there was no tendency at all to exaggerate the value of the assets? Mr. Fraser Not at all. As a matter of fact, at the latter date the value of the assets was placed at a lower figure than at the former date. House, Kirkcudbright (Cost) 27. Mr. McKie asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the cost of the house recently completed for the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright County Council's road engineer at Kirkcudbright. Mr. T. Fraser According to a statement submitted to the county council the house, excluding the garage, cost £1,374 to build, the plumbing and electrical work having been done by the road engineer himself. Mr. McKie Is the Minister aware that there is great dissatisfaction in the district at the cost of this house and that many people believe that it far exceeded the legitimate amount? Will the hon. Gentleman indicate his displeasure and his disapproval of this kind of thing done on behalf of our civil servants? Mr. Fraser Of course, this matter has been very carefully considered by a committee of the county council. The committee of the county council were satisfied that everything was fair, square and above board, and I do not think we have any right to criticise. Afforestation, Kirkcudbright 28. Mr. McKie asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how much of the 83,000 acres owned by the Forestry Commission in the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright has been planted; and what sheep stock there is on the non-planted area. Mr. T. Fraser A total of 18,664 acres are planted. The sheep stock on the un-planted land, as shown in the Agricultural Returns for June, 1949, was approximately 15,500 ewes and 18,500 others. Mr. McKie May I ask the Joint Under-Secretary of State whether he is aware that there has been a decrease in the sheep population in this county of about 70,000 in the last 10 years and that that is due quite largely to this very large planting of trees? Is he aware of the necessity of holding a balance between afforestation and sheep production? Mr. Fraser That is exactly what we are doing. The fall in sheep stock is not due, in fact, to the acreage which has been planted and, as the hon. Member will know, the cattle population in the same area has increased quite considerably. Advisory Council On Education (Report) 29. Lieut.-Commander Clark Hutchison asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the Report on Public Libraries and other cultural services in Scotland will be published. Miss Herbison My right hon. Friend has impressed upon the council the urgency of this Report. I understand that its preparation is well advanced and that it should be submitted to the Secretary of State in the autumn. It will be published as a Command Paper. Lieut.-Commander Hutchison Is the hon. Lady aware that as long ago as 22nd November the Secretary of State said that the Report was then being drafted? Is not the delay quite abnormal? Miss Herbison The Report is not ready for drafting even at the present time. The Committee are still dealing with this matter. We have urged upon them the necessity for getting the Report out quickly and we are almost certain that it will be out in the autumn. Lieut.-Commander Hutchison Arising out of that reply, may I call the hon. Lady's attention to column 184 of HANSARD of 22nd November last, when the Secretary of State said that the Report was then being drafted? Miss Herbison All I can say is that the information I have given to the hon. and gallant Member today is the correct information. Tenancy Of Shops Act (Extension) 30. Lieut.-Commander Hutchison asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is now in a position to make a statement about continuing the Tenancy of Shops (Scotland) Act, 1949, for a further period of five years. 41. Mr. Carmichael asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the final Report of the Committee of Inquiry into the Tenure of Shop and Business Premises as presented in Commander Paper No. 7903; and if he proposes early legislation on this subject of security of tenure. Miss Herbison My right hon. Friend and the President of the Board of Trade have considered the final Report of the Guthrie Committee and it has been decided to ask Parliament to extend the operation of the Tenancy of Shops (Scotland) Act, 1949, beyond 31st December next by means of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill. Mr. Carmichael May I ask my hon. Friend whether she is including business premises, in addition to shops, in this new arrangement? Miss Herbison No. What is to go into the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill will cover only those points covered by the existing Act. Teachers' Widows (Pensions) 31. Lieut.-Commander Hutchison asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to be able to make a statement on the possibility of introducing a scheme to provide pensions for the widows of teachers. Miss Herbison The difficult financial problems involved in any scheme of pensions for the widows of teachers require careful consideration and should be examined in the light of the results of the actuarial inquiry into the Teachers' Superannuation Scheme now proceeding. It will, therefore, be some little time before a further statement can be made. Lieut.-Commander Hutchison Will the hon. Lady indicate when the results of the actuarial inquiry are likely to become known? Miss Herbison We hope that the report will be ready by the end of this year. Mr. Niall Macpherson Will the hon. Lady tell us why this matter has not been considered at all in the last five years? Why is consideration only now being started? Miss Herbison This Committee has been sitting for some time. This subject has been the concern of the Department for a considerable time but no steps can be taken until the report of the Committee is ready. Mr. Hamilton Can the hon. Lady say why it was not dealt with by hon. Members opposite between the wars? Water Supplies, Skye And Outer Islands 32. Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamilton asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when it is proposed to make a start for the first phase water supply schemes for Skye and the Outer Islands. Mr. T. Fraser A start has not been made with these schemes because the county council are dissatisfied with the rate of grant recently offered to them. My right hon. Friend hopes to make a revised offer of grant at a very early date. Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamilton Will the hon. Member remember that the best season for the building of water supplies is very short? Can he say when it is expected that the negotiations between the county council and the Department for the 85 per cent. grant will be concluded? Mr. Fraser I do not know that there will be any 85 per cent. grant. They were recently offered a 40 per cent. grant; they had expected an 85 per cent. grant; and we have had a discussion recently. We hope in the next week or two to be able to offer them a modified grant, but I cannot say what it will be. Mr. Malcolm MacMiilan Is it the case that part at least of the reason for the reduction of the grant from 85 per cent. to 40 per cent. is that the council indecently rushed to reduce its rates last year and reduced the value of its own contribution? Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamilton Was it not true that there was confusion between the county rate and the water rate in the Department? Mr. Fraser The 85 per cent. which was expected in the first place was calculated on the basis of the rate burden on the authority before the introduction of the equalisation grant provision. Since the rate of the grant had to be fixed after the operation of the equalisation grant provisions, under which the county council are very generously treated by the Government, it was found that the rate of the grant would properly be fixed at 40 per cent. and the local authority were not willing to accept that. Freight Charges (Farmers) 33. Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamilton asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that the burden of increased freights falls most heavily on certain farmers in the Highlands; and what measures he is taking to compensate for this inequality. Miss Herbison I am aware of many complaints that freight charges have an adverse effect on various industries in the Highlands, including agriculture. This problem is being considered by a Joint Committee of the Scottish Council, the Highland Panel and the Scottish Board for Industry, with special reference to the draft charges scheme now being prepared by the British Transport Commission. Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamilton Can the hon. Gentleman say when the report of this Committee will be ready, and will she bear in mind, in the meantime, that the transport rates bear very heavily on the remote hill farmers at the present time? Miss Herbison At this stage I cannot give any date when this report will be ready, but we hope it will be ready soon so that it can go before the British Transport Commission. Sheep Sale, Stirling 34. Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamilton asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that agents of the Department of Agriculture for Scotland bid against each other recently at a sheep sale at Stirling; and if he will issue instructions to prohibit this practice. Mr. T. Fraser I am not aware of such an instance but I shall be glad to have particulars. Instructions already exist to avoid such occurrences. Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamilton Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this took place in September, 1948, when six agents of the Department were bidding against each other? Mr. Fraser The noble Lord will appreciate why it was that I was unable to identify the occasion. Now he has stated it, I will make some inquiries. I should be obliged if he could possibly be even more precise. Illegal Salmon Fishing (Legislation) 35. Colonel Gomme-Duncan asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action His Majesty's Government propose to take on the Report of the Committee on Poaching and Illegal Fishing of Salmon and Trout in Scotland. 90. Mr. William Ross asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether His Majesty's Government have completed their consideration of the Report of the Committee on Poaching and Illegal Fishing of Salmon and Trout in Scotland; and what action it is proposed to take. Mr. T. Fraser The Government have given careful consideration to the Committee's Report, and they propose to introduce legislation on the general lines suggested by the Committee. Colonel Gomme-Duncan May I ask the Joint Under-Secretary whether this legislation is likely to be introduced very soon? The Lord President of the Council did not seem very optimistic about it on Thursday. Mr. Fraser I should think that he is the member of His Majesty's Government who might be consulted about the matter. Mr. Ross Will my hon. Friend impress upon the Lord President the urgency of the matter? Mr. Fraser Yes, Sir. Mr. James Stuart Will the hon. Gentleman also take into account the fact that this is an admirable opportunity to deal with all sides of this question of the salmon fishing industry, and that he should not confine the Bill to the Report? Will he consider that point? Mr. Fraser I shall ask my right hon. Friend to bear that point in mind. Mr. Emrys Hughes Is my hon. Friend aware of the strong opinion in Scotland that there should be nationalisation of the fishing rights, without any compensation to the landlords? Lord Dunglass In impressing upon his right hon. Friend that this is an urgent matter, will the hon. Gentleman also point out that in the next few months, when the rivers are at their lowest and the fish are congregating in the head waters of the rivers to spawn, they are really most vulnerable? This poaching with poisoning and explosives is a new thing. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if the use of these methods is allowed to continue on this scale into the autumn, it will do great damage to stocks during the next few years? Mr. Fraser This is a very old form of private enterprise. I cannot give any undertaking that legislation will be passed to deal with it in the next few months. Lieut.-Colonel Elliot Would it not be more correct to call it "expropriation" than "nationalisation"? Finance And Economics (Inquiry) 36. Colonel Gomme-Duncan asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he can now announce the names and terms of reference of the committee he proposes to set up for the purpose of inquiring whether it is possible to inquire into the financial and other relations between Scotland and England. 43. Mr. Henderson Stewart asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now announce the names of those who are to serve on the committee of inquiry into Scottish-United Kingdom affairs. Miss Herbison My right hon. Friend hopes to be in a position to make an announcement shortly. Colonel Gomme-Duncan I must again ask the hon. Lady what "shortly" means. The matter has been on the tapis for some time. Mr. Stewart Are we entitled to presume that the committee will be formed before the Summer Recess? Miss Herbison I should hope so. Indeed, I am almost certain that it will be formed before the Summer Recess. Major Guy Lloyd May we have an assurance that the committee will not consist of those who are notoriously biased on this subject? Miss Herbison I can give the hon. and gallant Gentleman that assurance. Building Materials 37. Mr. Ross asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that local authorities are experiencing difficulty in obtaining timber and other essential building material; that in Ayrshire the housing programme is endangered; and if he will take action to ensure that house construction is not impeded by lack of essential materials. 38. Mr. Manuel asked the Secretary of State for Scotland in view of the number of representations being made to his Department by local authorities and building contractors as to the holding up of local authority house building through sufficient supplies of cement and timber not being available, what steps he is taking to deal with these complaints. Mr. T. Fraser Some temporary difficulty has arisen in fully meeting the demand for timber and cement. As regards timber, there is close and regular consultation between my officials and regional officers of the Board of Trade and Ministry of Works to ensure the utmost care in the use of stocks and to see that no hold-up occurs on housing or other essential works. Any case in which a hold-up is threatened is examined at once and, if necessary, supplies are released from a stock held in reserve to meet emergencies. As regards cement, I would refer the hon. Members to the answer given yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Works. Mr. Ross Will the Joint Under-Secretary consult the local authorities? He will find out that the difficulty which he describes as temporary has been recurring season after season. Will he not take action to get rid of it once and for all? Mr. Fraser In point of fact, if we want to get this thing quite accurate, the difficulty only arose a few weeks ago, and the difficulty will disappear within the next month. I do assure hon. Gentlemen that there were no such difficulties about either timber or cement from the summer of last year until a few weeks ago. Mr. Manuel May I ask my hon. Friend to go into the question of the distribution of cement? I am informed by a builder from the burgh of Irvine, who is on municipal houses that he can get plenty of this cement if he transports it from Dundee, which puts up the cost of the cement and adds to building costs in the area. Mr. Fraser I have personally been going into the distribution of timber and cement very recently. Of course, there are contractors and local authorities who run to merchants at a very great distance from the area in which they are working, and of course they get supplies from long distances. It very often happens that they could have got supplies much nearer at hand. Commander Galbraith Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the seriousness of this hold-up at this time in the building industry? What steps is he taking to see that it does not occur again? Mr. Fraser I have just been explaining to the House the steps that I have been taking to get over the difficulty, a difficulty which indeed arose because of the excellent building weather and the increased building work that has gone on in recent weeks. Commander Galbraith Is not the hon. Gentleman's Department capable of dealing with a situation that should have been perfectly obvious? Mr. McGovern Is it not the case that steps were not taken early enough and that the Government have largely slept in, in connection with this problem? Mr. Fraser I do not think we have had any hold-up as yet. Let me make that quite clear. I met the Scottish contractors only last week in Glasgow and I asked them to let me have knowledge of any case in the whole of broad Scotland where there was a stoppage. There has not been one, and I do not think there will be one. Hospital Treatment (Old People) 39. Mr. Manuel asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what arrangements are being made by the various regional hospital boards to provide hospitalisation for old people, many of whom are at present urgently needing trained nursing care, and are being deprived of it through the lack of sufficient nursing staff and beds. Miss Herbison Further expansion of facilities for this purpose will depend on the financial and other resources that can be made available to the hospital service. Arrangements are, however, in hand to make the best use of the existing facilities by adopting more intensive methods of treatment and to stimulate the fullest cooperation with the other residential and domiciliary services available to old people. Mr. Manuel Will the Joint Under-Secretary ask her right hon. Friend to go into the question, above all, of the utilisation of the hospital space available? I believe this should be looked at with a view to caring for our own old people and getting them hospital treatment almost immediately when necessary. Miss Herbison I can assure my hon. Friend that much attention has been given by the Department and the Ministers concerned to this matter. In some instances we have been able to find more accommodation by switching over the use of a hospital such as an infectious diseases hospital. Mr. Henry Strauss What happens to a "hospitalised" man when he is cured? Is he "de-hospitalised" or "homeised?" Old People (Residential Accommodation) 40. Mr. Carmichael asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now submit a comprehensive report on the progress being made by the local authorities in Scotland to provide residential accommodation for persons who, by reason of age, infirmity or any other circumstances are in need of care and attention; and if he will give an assurance that all local authorities are taking measures to meet their obligations to old people as directed under the National Assistance Act, 1948, Part III. Miss Herbison An account of the progress made in providing residential accommodation under the National Assistance Act is contained in the Annual Report for 1949 of the Department of Health for Scotland. Since the passing of the Act, local authorities have opened six homes, 21 others have been acquired and are at various stages of preparation, while the acquisition of 16 others is being considered. My officers are in constant touch with the local authorities on this matter and I think that the authorities generally are alive to their obligations. New Towns 42. Colonel Gomme-Duncan asked the Secretary of State for Scotland on how many new towns in Scotland work has been started; what is the estimated number of dwellings required in each; the number completed and occupied up to 31st May, 1950; and the number under construction at 31st May, 1950. Miss Herbison Work on both new towns in Scotland has been begun. Twelve thousand houses are estimated to be required at East Kilbride; at 31st May, 78 had been completed and occupied and 212 were under construction. Eight thousand houses were originally estimated to be required at Glenrothes, but this figure is being reviewed in the light of the latest information about coalmining development in Fife. No houses have yet been begun by the development corporation, but 136 houses are expected to be started shortly. The county council have two housing schemes within the new town area in which 18 houses have been completed and occupied and 278 are under construction. Mr. Henderson Stewart Does that answer mean that the number of dwellings to be built at Glenrothes in the county of Fife is now to be reduced? Miss Herbison At the present time we are dealing with new figures that have been put forward by the National Coal Board in the developing of that area. We must await the decision on these new figures before we can say what will be happening. Mr. John MacLeod Three or four years ago there was talk of a new town at Invergordon in my constituency. Has that idea been completely dropped now? Miss Herbison That is another question. Major Lloyd Will the hon. Lady tell the House what the latest estimate of total cost of new towns in Scotland is likely to be, because the people of Scotland want to know? Miss Herbison If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will put down a Question, we will try to answer it. Commander Galbraith Will the hon. Lady make certain that these towns are being provided with schools, churches and halls and that they are not being left without them, as other new towns have been? Miss Herbison It is one of the ideas behind the new towns that we should have the amenities that we did not have in the older places. Shetland Wool Scheme 44. Mr. Grimond asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he hopes to be able to make a statement on the findings of the inquiry into the Shetland wool scheme. Mr. T. Fraser The Commissioner's Report on the public inquiry into the objections to the draft Shetland Wool Marketing Scheme was made 10 days ago and is being considered. This consideration may yet take some time. Mr. Grimond Bearing in mind the difficult situation which faces the crofters at the present time, will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that no final decision will be taken on the matter until full publicity has been given to the findings of the inquiry and an opportunity given to the crofters to represent their point of view upon it? Mr. Fraser It is the duty of the Government to consider the Commissioner's Report and then to have consultations, if need be, with the promoters of the scheme. I think that we had better consider the Report and have discussions with the promoters before we indulge in any publicity campaign.