Ireland Civil Servants (Retirement) 84. Sir JOHN BUTCHER asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Irish civil servants who are desirous of being superannuated and receiving compensation under Article 10 of the Treaty and Article 7 of the Order in Council, Transferring Powers, of April, 1922, are now at liberty to make application for that purpose; whether the six months' notice will run from the date of such application; and whether it will be possible for them, in cases where it is proper and desirable in their interests to do so, to be superannuated before the expiration of the six months' notice? Mr. CHURCHILL The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. In reply to the second and third parts of the question, the formulation of the rules and conditions necessary for carrying into effect Article 10 of the Treaty and Article 7 of the Transfer of Functions Order is a matter for the Provisional Government. Sir J. BUTCHER Shall we in this House have an opportunity of discussing these Rules and Regulations which will govern the status of our civil servants? Mr. CHURCHILL Yes, ultimately, when the final stages of the Irish Constitution come before this House, legislative proposals will have to he made. Sir J. BUTCHER Am I to understand that we shall have that opportunity on the discussion of the Free State Constitution? Mr. CHURCHILL Either that or the ancillary Bill containing minor pro visions which will accompany it. Malicious Injuries Commission 85. Major M. WOOD asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies by what authority the Compensation (Ireland) Commission supersedes the existing statutory machinery for assessing compensation for criminal or malicious injuries in Southern Ireland; whether this Commission has power to enforce the attendance of witnesses and to administer an oath to witnesses; and, if so, by what authority, statutory or otherwise, these powers have been conferred upon the Commission? Mr. CHURCHILL In reply to the first part of the question, the Compensation (Ireland) Commission does not supersede the existing statutory machinery for assessing compensation for criminal and malicious injuries in Southern Ireland. Inasmuch, however, as this machinery is inoperative, the Commission provided an alternative means whereby injured persons may obtain relief. The reply to the second part of the question is in the negative, and the third part does not arise. Colonel ASHLEY What, legal status had this Commission? Mr. CHURCHILL I would rather give an answer after I have had an opportunity of consulting my legal advisers. Colonel ASHLEY The right hon. Gentleman has just told us that a Commission of which he knows nothing, and which has no legal authority, will supersede the ordinary law. Surely we ought to have some information on that point. Mr. CHURCHILL That is certainly not the answer I gave, nor any fair deduction from it. It is rather a habit the hon. and gallant Gentleman has. If he will put down a definite question, I will then give him the answer, in regard to which I shall have had an opportunity of consulting my legal advisers. Major M. WOOD That is the very question I put. Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the first part of my question, by what statutory authority the Commission has been set up? Mr. CHURCHILL I have said I am not prepared to frame the exact words of an answers to legal question of that kind. Sir J. BUTCHER Are we to understand that the Provisional Government have agreed to pay the compensation which will be awarded by Lord Shaw's Commission? Mr. CHURCHILL The Provisional Government have agreed to pay the whole of the compensation, both to our own people and to theirs, and then they will recover from us the amount of damages for which we are responsible. Titles Of Honour 86. Captain FOXCROFT asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, seeing that Clause 5 of the suggested Constitution for the Irish Free State precludes His Majesty from conferring titles of honour upon Irish subjects who have served him faithfully and well in Ireland without the consent of the Minister of that State, he will state in which other Colonial or Dominion Constitution such a provision occurs? Mr. CHURCHILL No such provision is embodied in any Dominion or Colonial Constitution. Lieut.-Colonel NALL Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of recommending to the Prime Minister that this rule should be adopted in the case of South Africa? Captain FOXCROFT is there any reason why a South African millionaire should be enobled without asking the Government, or even with their consent and approval, and have an entirely different system adopted in Southern Ireland? Mr. CHURCHILL A great deal of that question ought not to be addressed to me. Kidnapping, Cavan 88. Colonel GRETTON asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has received information of the kidnapping of David Pollock, son of Sergeant-major Pollock, both demobilised soldiers, which took place at Cavan on the 14th June; if he is aware that David Pollock's life was threatened if the family did not return to Cavan before 21st June; can he give any information as to David Pollock; and what steps has he taken to obtain his release? Mr. CHURCHILL The reply to the first and second parts of the question is in the affirmative. Representations have been made to the Provisional Government to secure Pollock's release, and I am hoping that he may be released to-day or to-morrow. Colonel GRETTON Can the right hon. Gentleman not ascertain that he is safe? Mr. CHURCHILL I only know what the Provisional Government have said. Mr. PENNEFATHER Can the right hon. Gentleman say how it is that the Provisional Government's efforts in these matters are so ineffective? Mr. CHURCHILL We shall see to-day, or to-morrow, whether they are or not. Free State Constitution 89. Colonel GRETTON asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether acceptance of the status of a citizen of the Irish Free State, under the provisions of Clause 3 of the suggested Constitution for Southern Ireland, deprives the person so accepting of his rights as a British subject in Ireland? Mr. CHURCHILL The answer is in the negative. Colonel GRETTON Are we to understand that the status, with all the rights, of British citizenship, is to be recognised in Southern Ireland when the Constitution is set up? Mr. CHURCHILL This case arises similarly in the Dominions, and I cannot attempt to give any further answer, without an opportunity of framing it with my legal advisers. Mr. GIDEON MURRAY Is it not a fact that a citizen of a British Dominion is, ipso facto, a British subject? Mr. CHURCHILL So will he be in the Irish Free State. Mr. G. MURRAY That is not the case. Mr. CHURCHILL It is the case. 26. Sir W. DAVISON asked the Prime Minister what is the court or body which is entitled to decide whether any provision of the Constitution of the Irish Free State, or any amendment thereof, is in any respect repugnant to any of the provisions of the Treaty with British Ministers which forms a schedule to the said Constitution, and is empowered to declare void and inoperative any such provision? Mr. CHURCHILL The question to which the hon. Member refers may be raised before any Court in which it is a material issue. The High Court of the Free State would have primary jurisdiction to determine the question subject to an appeal to the Supreme Court of the Free State. I would further refer the hon. Member to the proviso to Article 65 of the, draft Constitution which provides that nothing in the Constitution shall impair the right of any person to petition His Majesty for special leave to appeal from the Supreme Court to His Majesty in Council or the right of His Majesty to grant such leave. Murders 90. Viscount CURZON asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many British subjects in Southern Ireland have been murdered or have died of wounds since the signing of the Treaty; whether it is the policy of His Majesty's Government to relinquish no effort to secure the punishment of the guilty persons: and whether it is his intention to make representations to this effect to the Provisional Government of Southern Ireland in the same terms as has been made in the case of the murder of servants of the Crown? Mr. CHURCHILL In reply to the first part of the question, the number of persons murdered in Southern Ireland since 6th December is as follows:— ------------------------------------------------- |Serving members of the Royal Irish Constabulary| ------------------------------------------------- |Ex-members of the Royal Irish Constabulary | ------------------------------------------------- |Soldiers | ------------------------------------------------- |Ex-soldiers | ------------------------------------------------- |Civilians | ------------------------------------------------- In reply to the second and third parts of the question, it is for the Provisional Government, so long as they are responsible for the maintenance of law and order in the area within their jurisdiction, to take such steps as may be possible to trace and punish the guilty persons; and we shall expect them to do this. Colonel ASHLEY What steps are you taking to assure it? It is no use expecting it unless you do something. Sir F. BANBURY If the Provisional Government do nothing, as they already have done nothing, is the right hon. Gentleman going to sit still and do nothing? Mr. CHURCHILL No, Sir. I said the other day that we were not going to allow a single one of these cases to drop. They will be pressed by us upon the Provisional Government on every opportunity that is open to us, and I venture to think that in proportion as they become a settled, ordered Government, in that proportion our influence and pressure upon them will become more effective. Sir H. CRAIK Did not the right hon. Gentleman say that he would regard what went on in Ireland with stony indifference? Mr. CHURCHILL I did not say anything of the sort. My right hon. Friend is taking one phrase out of one part of my speech, and applying it to a quite different set of circumstances—a proceeding far different from his usual standard in dealing with Parliamentary controversy. I said that if Ireland continued to degenerate into anarchy, it would 'be watched with the stony indifference of the world. By that, I meant, and was understood to mean, that there would be no sympathy for the Irish people in foreign countries if, having been given this splendid chance, they throw it away. Sir H. CRAIK rose— Mr. SPEAKER This matter can be debated later to-day. Sir H. CRAIK In saying that the rest of the world would regard it with stony indifference, did the right hon. Gentleman include this country, which has a responsibility which the rest of the world has not. Mr. CHURCHILL I certainly do not consider that we can indefinitely con- tinue to regard with indifference a progressive degeneration into anarchy throughout Ireland. Mr. RONALD McNEILL May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether in his mind lie has fixed any period at which his patience will break down? Mr. CHURCHILL I have certainly fixed in my own mind certain tests, both of circumstances and of time, which would determine the moment when a change of policy is necessary. Mr. McNEILL Will the right hon. Gentleman give it to the House? Mr. CHURCHILL If I am allowed to discuss the matter later on. Mr. SPEAKER These matters are for debate later. Royal Irish Constabulary 91. Rear-Admiral ADAIR asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, if he is aware that an ex-member of the Royal Irish Constabulary who desires to commute his pension for the purpose of emigrating is charged a fee by the Treasury for so doing which in some cases amounts to as much as £10; for what purpose is the fee charged; and will the Treasury take immediate steps to cancel their orders on the subject and, in cases where the fee has been charged, to refund the amount to the individual concerned? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Sir Robert Horne) The prescribed fee under the Pensions Commutation Acts, which is charged for the purpose of meeting the cost of the requisite medical examinations and other expenses of the Pensions Commutation Board, is one per cent. of the capital sum granted, with a minimum of £1 and a maximum of £10. I regret that I cannot see my way to exempt ex-members of the Royal Irish Constabulary who desire to commute their compensation allowances from the application of the ordinary regulations in this respect, which for many years have been applicable to naval and military officers commuting their retired pay. Irish Republican Army 27. Sir W. DAVISON asked the Prime Minister whether any arrangement has been made with the Provisional Govern- ment of Southern Ireland for the disbandment of the Irish Republican Army, who have taken an oath of allegiance to an Irish Republic; whether he is aware that members of the Irish Republican Army as originally constituted are also pledged to obey the orders of a secret society known as the Irish Republican Brotherhood; and whether any British arms or munitions of war have been handed over to members of any Irish military forces pledged as above? Mr. CHURCHILL The reply to the first and second parts of the question is in the negative. In reply to the third part, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to questions addressed to me on the 16th February last by the hon. Member for Kirkdale, in which I stated that I was fully prepared to assume that the personnel of the forces of the Provisional Government, to whom, as the House is aware, a considerable quantity of arms and munitions has been handed over by His Majesty's Government, as well as the headquarters staff engaged in equipping and training it, would be drawn to some and, possibly, to a considerable extent from those who, during the period of conflict, constituted what was known as the Irish Republican Army, but that any dealings by His Majesty's Government with those persons would he in their individual capacity as accredited agents of the Provisional Government. Sir W. DAVISON Is it not a fact that motor-cars and munitions of war which have been handed over by the British Government have been used for the purpose of raids on Ulster? Mr. CHURCHILL No; I do not think so. British Troops 28. Sir W. DAVISON asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the Report on the state of Ireland issued by the Presbyterian General Assembly which has just concluded its meeting in Belfast, in which serious complaint is made of the withdrawal of all Imperial forces from Southern Ireland and the desertion of law-abiding citizens, who have now no protection for life or property in that area, and also drawing attention to the fact that large numbers of Presbyterians and other Protestants had, owing to the prevailing terrorism and the aforesaid withdrawal of protection, been compelled to leave their homes and businesses in Southern Ireland; and, in view of this Report, will the policy of withdrawing the British troops to Cork and Dublin be reconsidered? Mr. CHURCHILL The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, but the hon. Member must not assume that the matters to which the report in question alludes have been overlooked by His Majesty's Government and are now for the first time brought to their attention. The policy pursued by His Majesty's Government has only been adopted after very careful examination of all the relevant facts, and, much as they deplore the state of disorder at present existing in all parts of Ireland, they see no sufficient ground at present for varying that policy in the manner suggested by the hon. Member. Sir W. DAVISON Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that someone must be responsible for the protection of these unfortunate people, and has he represented to the Free State that, if they are not in a position to protect these people, His Majesty's Government will have to do so? Mr. CHURCHILL I will touch on these topics in the course of my speech. Sir W. DAVISON Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that he should do something more than "touch' upon what is a matter of life and death? Mr. CHURCHILL I realise the importance of the subject. Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR Will the right hon. Gentleman touch upon the danger to life in other parts of Ireland?