moved for leave to bring in a bill to revive a bill which passed in the last session of parliament, for the better providing of officers for the militia, by enabling the lords lieutenants of counties to grant commissions to subaltern officers not qualified by local property in their respective counties.

observed, that as the bill of the last session had expired, he thought it would be necessary for the house to know how far it had been acted upon before it should be deemed proper to revive it. He should, therefore, feel it necessary to move for a return of the number of commissions issued by the several lords-lieutenants of counties respectively, under the authority of this act; for if it should appear there had been none, or only very few, it would be unnecessary, in his opinion, to revive the bill.

hoped the noble lord would not impede the progress of the bill; or at least that the house would not consent to its delay on the ground stated; for as it was necessary, whether the number under the former bill was small or great, to secure a means of ensuring officers for the militia, and the return mentioned by the noble lord could not be obtained without considerable delay, he trusted the house would allow the bill to be brought in.—Leave was accordingly given.

moved the order of the day for resolving into a committee of supply, and that there be referred to the committee the estimates for making certain allowances to militia subalterns in time of peace; the estimates for the pay of the Irish and English militia pay and clothing for the service of the year, and for allowance to militia serjeant majors; the estimates for an allowance to his Majesty of monies for foreign and other secret services for the year; also the estimates of allowance to the British Museum; which were ordered, and the house resolved into the committee accordingly, Mr. Alexander in the chair.—The right hon. gent. then moved, that provision be made accordingly under the said several heads, and in particular, a sum not exceeding 150,000l. for the secret services; a sum not exceeding 412,000l. to be paid without deduction, to the United States of America, awarded to them by a committee for compensation for prizes taken during the last war, and condemned in this country; and the sum necessary to pay off the outstanding balance of 11 millions upon exchequer bills issued under votes of the last session of parliament.—The house having resumed, the report was ordered to be received, and the committee to sit again on Monday.

observed, that several gentlemen had understood that both the bills were not to be read a third time on the same day, and as some who were not now present wished to speak upon the bill for augmenting the Irish militia, he therefore proposed, if the right hon. gent. (Mr. Sec. Yorke) had no objection, to postpone the third reading of that bill till some day next week.

said, if there were any gentlemen who did not expect the bill to come on to-day, he had no objection to postpone the third reading till Monday.

thought the priority ought to be given to the bill for augmenting the militia of Ireland, as they ought to augment first, before they drew away the existing militia, since it would be very preposterous if the bill for accepting the offers was to be agreed to, and then the bill for augmenting to be negatived.

observed, that the address upon his Majesty's message only spoke of enabling his Majesty to accept the offers of the Irish militia, but took no notice of the augmentation; the former, therefore, of course had the priority.—The bill was then ordered to be read a third time on Monday.

rose, for the purpose of asking a question of his Majesty's ministers, upon their answer to which some trouble might be saved to them, to himself, and to the house. It related to a former question he had asked respecting what had passed in the last negotiation between this country and the court of Russia, on the subject of mediation with France. He had recently heard reports, on their authenticity he certainly could not rely, that an important negotiation was at this time pending between this country and Russia. He wished, therefore, to know, whether or not this was the fact; because, if it was, it would go a great way to prevent his bringing forward the motion of which he had formerly moved, for the production of papers on that subject, so soon as he otherwise should.

answered, that when the hon. gent. first mentioned this subject to the house, he himself had promised that the whole of the papers on that subject should be laid before the house so soon as circumstances could, with propriety, admit. When the hon. gent., on a still more recent occasion, revived the subject, he had told him that reasons were still in existence, which rendered it ineligible for his Majesty's ministers to advise his Majesty to order the production of those papers at that time. One of the reasons in existence then was, that his Majesty's govt. had not at the time ascertained whether the whole of their communications had reached the Russian court On this point they had been since satisfied; but still there were reasons in existence which would render it ineligible to comply with the wishes of the hon. gent., to whom he trusted for the present this answer would be satisfactory to convince him that he had been as explicit as was consistent with his official duty.

declared himself satisfied with this answer, and therefore deferred further enquiry on this subject; but he would now take the opportunity of giving notice, that on this day se'nnight he should bring forward a motion respecting the state of the defence of this country, so far as related to what had already been done.

observed, that the Secretary at War had given notice of his intention to move for bringing in a bill to enable the lords lieut. of counties to grant commissions in the militia to persons not duly qualified. He wished for some farther explanation of the right. hon. gent's. intentions upon this subject.

replied, that the object of his intended motion was only to renew the act which had formerly passed upon this subject, and that the number of those so appointed might be ascertained.

moved the third reading of the Irish militia offer bill.

said, he must view this, and the other measures of his Majesty's ministers for increasing the national force, with peculiar jealousy, because there were none of them but had undergone subsequent alterations, He objected to the present bill, viewing it as a violation of a constitutional principle, and breaking the public faith with the militia of the country. He doubted whether this measure would afford to the public the advantages of a disposable force, as it would be throwing impediments in the way of recruiting. He contended, that the unfortunate war in which we were engaged had been entered into from a want of energy on the part of ministers. It was a war in which the ministers had involved us, because they could not keep peace. He blamed also the general system of measures pursued by those gentlemen. The measures were all of a defensive nature, from which no glory was to be acquired. Could we blame the torpidity of the continent when we used no means to rouse or animate them, but, regardless of the interests of Europe, were busied only in raising a wall round ourselves for our own exclusive security? He did not wish, however, any connexion to be formed with the continent, founded on low intrigues, or schemes of assassination, from which the feelings of honour and humanity were banished. He wished us to carry the war in some measure out of the kingdom.

thought that since the union had taken place between the two kingdoms, it would be more desirable and consistent that there should be but one military force, and he disrelished the idea of having a considerable military force locked up in Ireland. If both countries bore their respective proportions towards the expenses of their militia, each ought to have the benefits resulting from them. In like manner, as there were but one army and one navy, so he would have but one militia for both countries. He could see no sound constitutional policy in locking up 70,000 men in this country, if their services should be wanted in Ireland; as there was a reciprocity of interests, so should there be of services in each country. The principal objection which he had to this measure was, the impossibility of adopting it without, at the same time, allowing deliberating bodies amongst the military; but as he was in all other respects friendly to the object of the bill, he found it advisable, for the present, to wave this objection, and agree that the bill should pass. He hoped, however, that due caution would be used as to giving any encouragement to such deliberative military bodies. He said he could not help adverting, with some regret, to the partiality discovered by some very respectable characters, who seemed disposed to prejudge the question; and, referring to the late printed advertisement from a meeting of a number of lords lieutenants and English militia officers, he said, that he trusted their good sense would lay them open to conviction, and that they would not hesitate to give their assent to a measure productive of solid advantages to both countries. He granted that this measure might be considered as a deviation from the general principles on which the militia was founded; at the same time he could not help viewing it as an improvement. It must be recollected that the English militia was constituted at a time when there was none in Ireland or Scotland. It would then, indeed, have been hard to have requested the English militia to go over and defend Ireland; but circumstances were now, and particularly since the union of the two countries, materially altered. For his part, he could wish that this bill went to the full extent of admitting the whole of the Irish militia to volunteer their services. There was not a more gallant, loyal, or zealous body of men. They proved this, by putting down the unfortunate Irish rebellion, before a single English soldier went over to Ireland. He considered the present measure as one that naturally grew out of the articles of the Union. Ever since that time all national distinctions ought to be done away, but so long as two distinct militias continued, the two countries did not appear to him to be so much in unison as could be wished. The present military state of Ireland was truly respectable. There were in it 30,000 regular troops. It had a militia of 18,000 men, besides 84,000 yeomanry, all armed, and well trained and disciplined, and who must be considered as far better than volunteers, inasmuch as the former had been established eight years, and the latter only as many months. Military gentlemen, from this country, had been astonished to see to what a degree of discipline the Irish yeomanry had arrived, and had pronounced them similar to an efficient army.

said, he was willing to admit the general principle supported by the last speaker, but insisted that it was a principle not recognized by the framers and promoters of the bill. The reverse, indeed, was so much the case, that they had avowed that it was not their intention to make such an interchange as had been alluded to. The hon. gent. paid some high compliments to the Irish militia, and adduced some instances of the gallant services they had performed in the rebellion, and against the French during the last war, and particularly a small corps under the command of that gallant officer, Colonel Vereker. He opposed the measure.

said, he should reserve his opinion on the general subject, until the bill, which had been postponed, should be brought forward. What he rose for in the present instance, was to throw out an idea, which he thought necessary for him to do on this occasion, lest he should be thought to acquiesce in sentiments from which he differed, although his general opinion was in unison with the hon. gent. who uttered them. What he meant applied to that which was commonly called the love of our country; by that he neither meant than which embraced the general interests of the world, as they might be viewed by some, nor that contracted policy which was adopted by others, although he admitted that some of the best principles that a man cherished in society, arose from local attachment for the country, as the particular spot that gave him birth; this attachment, although local and contracted, led to many generous acts, but still he would not have it pressed too far, such as to make a man attend to the particular interest of Sussex instead of Kent, or any thing of that nature; he wished for something more liberal, and that gent. should take a view of the true interests of the British Empire, not of England in contradistinction to Ireland, nor of Ireland as different from England, but of the general and united interests of both; not that he wished to be understood to bind himself to any broad general principle applicable to all cases of this nature, for he knew how many virtuous sentiments originated in what might properly be called local perjudices; for attachment to the spot which gave a man birth, or that in which his ancestors had made great achievements, or the like, were of that character, and in one sense was the love of one's country altogether, for that was to prefer its interest to that of the rest of mankind. He therefore wished, that in judging of the interests of the British Empire, gentlemen would consider, as much as they could, the case of England and of Ireland as one and the same thing.

approved of every syllable of what was uttered to night by the right hon. gent. who had just sat down, upon the subject of the love of our country, and he deprecated the practice of endeavouring to set off one part of the Empire against the other in interest, for that was directly hostile to the true spirit of the Union, an event from which he expected as great benefits to arise, as we had felt from the Union between England and Scotland. He then proceeded to defend the bill now before the house, in the course of which he adverted to all the arguments which had been urged against it, and maintained the propriety of the measure altogether upon general principles.

objected to the general principles of the bill.

said he had no intention of calling in question the purity of the motives of those gentlemen who had entered into certain resolutions on the subject of the militia volunteering to go out of their own country into another part of the Empire. He considered those noblemen and gentlemen as persons of pure honour and perfect integrity, who acted from the most unquestionably virtuous feelings, whether they were correct in judgment or not. He said he should give a vote to-night different from that which he gave on a former occasion, upon this bill, and that arose from an understanding, that no provision was at all intended to be made for an interchange of the militia of the two countries; and he trusted, at all events, if any part of the militia of Ireland was to be called out of that country, they would not be replaced by foreigners. He took occasion to observe upon the Union between this country and Ireland. He thought that measure had not been fairly treated, it had not yet had any thing like a fair trial. Those who planned it, and from whose talents and exertion both countries expected much for the general advantage of both parts of the Empire, had not hitherto been able to act, as could have been wished, and until some measures came from those eminent persons according to their sense of the utility of the Union, and the true spirit of it as a measure of general policy for the interest of the Empire, the Union could not be said to have been fairly tried. He must be allowed also to say it appeared to him to be impolitic to bring forward from day to day those measures which applied only to particular objects, and the provisions of which were of a local and temporary nature. He wished to see some broad, general and permanent system adopted, equally applicable to each part of the United Empire, so as to consolidate the interests, conciliate the hearts, and meet the wishes of both sides; but he could not help saying that a great deal of the advantages the Empire might have derived from the good wishes of leading men, had been done away by the firebrands of discord of late employed in Ireland.

said, that his reason for rising now was, to take notice of what had just fell from an hon. member behind him (Sir J. Newport). He was glad he had now understood the hon. member as to what he had said on a former night, for he had thought he had cast reflections on those noblemen and gentlemen who signed the resolutions alluded to, relative to the militia going out of this country. They were characters of the highest class, and for whom he professed to have a very warm attachment, and, as he now understood the hon. member did not mean to express him- self in the way he (Mr. Fox) then understood he had done, all he would say was, he was sorry he had misunderstood him, and he begged his pardon. As to the debate of to-night, it had, as on some other occasions, been fashionable to go into extraneous matter; but he should not follow the example, there were many points stated which he should not discuss; but, on the point of the love of his country, he must say that he was between the two extremes, neither desirous that local attachment should check general sentiment, nor that general sentiment should wholly destroy local attachment. It was true that parliament, as such, must consider the two countries, England and Ireland, united in interests as one individual country, but while they were legislating on a measure so local in its nature, as that of the militia was, they must consider what were the dispositions of the people of each country, and possibly particular spots in each country. So that the house was not, in this case, to consider the act of parliament upon general principles, without regard to local attachment; and here came a difference between the friends and the enemies of the Union; the one wished to diminish, the other to increase these local attachments, and the prejudices arising out of them; nor was it to be at once cured. It was true the act of Union declared the two countries to be joined as one, but it was not by acts of parliament, but by habits that men felt; it was not by the statute of the 6th of Ann, or the 40th of George, that men regulated their feelings; these were not the rules by which we distinguished between an Englishman and a Scotchman, or between either of them and an Irishman; nor could they change a man's preference for the county of Sussex to that of Kent. These things depended upon habits, which could not be hastily done away. But there was a part of this bill that appeared to him to require amendment. If we brought into England 10,000 Irish militia, we should have among them a great number of Catholics, they were all under the discipline of the mutiny bill, and chiefly if not wholly protestant officers. It was a part of military discipline to oblige men to go to church. One would not think that this power would be used for the purpose of oppression, and he hoped not, but he submitted that either a clause should be introduced into this bill, or else a new bill should be brought in, in which provision should be made, by which these Catholics should not be compelled to follow the protestant form of worship against their scruples of conscience.

observed, there was nothing in the articles of war by which they were compelled to do this. He then proceeded to observe on the union of the two countries; gentlemen seemed to consider Ireland as if it were another and remote country beyond the Atlantic; whereas the true way to view that matter was to consider the channel between England and Ireland as a mere canal, by which a communication was to be constantly kept up between them. As to the measure now before the house, he was a friend to it, nor could he omit this opportunity of observing that Ireland was never better taken care of by sea or land than at the present time; which was not the case in every instance in the time of the late administration, the particulars of which, although he could, he would forbear to state.

observed, that Irish gentlemen appeared to him to accede to this measure under the idea that it was to be reciprocal, and that similar offers were to be made by the English militia. He wished the house to consider to what length that idea, if indulged, might go. He thought we should not try any thing of this kind without a general revision of the militia laws, and an alteration of a permanent nature for the future, but all the present militia must be allowed to remain as they are, for parliament could not, consistently with its honour, operate upon them by an ex post facto law. He thought this bill objectionable, on the ground that it would increase the price of substitutes, which was a tax, on account of men being unwilling to enter where the nature of the service was extended. But above all, considering the character of the govt. with which we had to contend, not only now, but the govt. which France might assume if they should be so happy as to part with its present head; and upon that idea he thought it was well worth the while of the house to consider, whether we should not adopt a different system for our defence in future, although hitherto we had been indeed happy in that system.

delivered his sentiments shortly against the bill.

entered into general observations on the bill, and proceeded to propose an amendment, the object of which he said was to put an end to that state of deliberation in which the present bill placed the militia. He was about to enter upon the detail of his amendment, when he was called to order by

, who observed, that if he opposed the bill for its not containing a certain provision, the proper mode was to give notice of his intention to move a clause to that effect.

expressed his regret, that this bill was likely to pass, as it went to take away an efficient force from Ireland, which was to be replaced by an undisciplined army of reserve.

, in allusion to what fell from an hon. gent. (Mr. Fox), as to the obligation on soldiers to attend places of protestant worship, said, that the soldiers in Ireland, immediately on being dismissed from the parade, went to their respective places of worship, according to the religion they professed; without any restraint whatever being laid on them. And he was confident that the same thing would be done here. The present bill met his approbation; it would have the effect of making better soldiers of the Irish, who always became so when taken out of their own country. There was a great deal of good humour about them; they would submit to fatigues more readily than other men, and officers generally gave them the preference. He thought it would produce a beneficial effect on the Irish militia soldiers, if they were enabled to witness the happiness enjoyed by the people of this country from their industry and obedience to the laws.

said, that as one of those who had lately signed certain resolutions, he thought it proper to observe, that, although it might have been necessary to send militia regiments to Ireland in 1798, it did not follow but that it was improper to accept the offers of regiments now.

said, that with respect to the obligation to attend religious worship, some arrangement ought to be made which should apply to regiments in all parts of the united kingdom.

said, there was an instance, during the last war, of a commanding officer having had a man punished for not going to the Protestant church along with the rest of the men. And this circumstance gave rise to an ill-judged publication from a Catholic clergyman, who certainly was a very respectable man; and who was well known both in Ireland and in England. This fact he mentioned, to shew that the hon. gent. (Mr. Fox) was correct in his statement. But it was now understood in Ireland, that no soldiers were liable to be disturbed in the exercise of their religious worship. Taking the present measure in a political, and not in a military point of view, he would give it his support; because he knew it would have the effect of blending and joining together in heart and hand, the inhabitants of Ireland and England. The people of both countries might at length know each other; thus mutual prejudices might be done away, and the empire would be strengthened and secured. He wished for an interchange of the militias of both countries; and he was extremely anxious it should not go abroad that his Majesty's ministers were adverse to such a measure. They certainly did not state that there should be no such interchange. It might be productive of very unpleasant consequences in Ireland, if it was understood there that 10,000 men were to be taken away from the country, and none sent in their stead. He hoped then that nothing would go abroad, to damp the ardour with which his countrymen had made their voluntary offers to serve in Great-Britain.

said he was extremely anxious that this bill should be followed by another which might make a provision in favour of those soldiers who were Catholics. According to the mutiny act, a commanding officer had the power of compelling a soldier to attend the protestant worship; and that was clearly proved by the fact which an hon. gent. had stated. He wished those religious distinctions, that had long prevailed in Ireland, might be completely done away; and that some wise and wholesome laws might be enacted to cure those radical defects which belonged to the peasantry of that country; who, it appeared from every account, were in a most wretched state. With regard to the present measure, there was no one reason in favour of it; it would not increase our public force, nor add to our security.

did not think this to be a proper occasion for entering into a discussion, with regard to making a provision in favour of those soldiers who were not Protestants. Such a measure did not exclusively belong to the present bill, because it must take in the whole of the army and navy of the kingdom. Besides, it was a question of too much magnitude to be introduced into the present bill. He thought it necessary, however, to observe, that the mutiny act was the same in G. Britain as in Ireland; and that when Irish regiments of militia came over here, and were commanded by the same officers who commanded them in Ireland, no change whatever could take place with regard to their attendance on religious worship, different from what at present existed in Ireland. There did not now exist any grievance in Ireland on that subject; and why should it exist here, when there would be no change that could bring it about?—The house, after several calls for the question, divided; when there appeared

then observed, that it would be necessary to specify the periods for which the militia regiments volunteering their services should be liable to serve. He said that many of them had offered to serve during the war, and he had to state to the house, that besides the list of the regiments which was already on the table, the Roscommon, Cavan, Westmeath, and Kilkenny regiments had since offered their services. He then moved the following clause by way of rider: "that all voluntary offers coming from Irish regiments of militia, and accepted by his Majesty, should be binding on the parties so tendering their services during the continuance of the act."—This clause, after some observations from Colonel Craufurd, Lord De Blaquiere, Mr. Windham, and the Attorney-General, was agreed to.

then moved as an amendment, that instead of the bill continuing only till the 1st of May, 1805, its continuance should extend to the 25th of March, 1806. This was also agreed to.—On the motion that the bill do pass,

wished to know whether some provision ought not to be made for trying officers belonging to the regiments that should come here, by officers taken from among themselves?

replied, that no provision of that kind was necessary. The Irish and English militia acts were the same: and if militia regiments of both countries happened to be near each other, their officers might be tried by officers taken from the regiments of either country.—The bill was then passed, and ordered to be carried to the lords by the Secretary, at War.

rose pursuant to notice, to move for a committee to inquire into certain parts of the corn laws of this country. He should not now call in question the policy of those laws, nor enter into any discussion how far they were wise and good at the time when they were enacted. But he should propose to make it a subject of inquiry whether the principle of the act passed in 1791, for regulating the import and export of corn, had been carried completely into effect; and whether those pries that had been then fixed upon as the criterion for allowing the importation and the exportation of corn, were adequate to the present circumstances of the country; whether they were equal to the present rate of money, the price of labour, and of all the necessaries of life. By the act to which he alluded, the exportation of corn was permitted, when the price was at 46s, in order to give encouragement to agriculture. He was sorry to say, the principle of commercial policy had not been applied to this subject, and, on that account, the growers of corn were liable to many hardships. And it should be the object of the committee he meant to move for, to consider, whether the export and import prices fixed upon by the act of 1791, were calculated to answer the objects intended by that act; and whether, for the purpose of giving encouragement to agriculture, it might not be necessary to fix a higher price for the exportation of corn. It would be no part of the business of the committee to inquire into the corn trade carried on between Great Britain and Ireland. That was to be a subject for another consideration. There were several other objects referred to in petitions before the house, which should also be taken into consideration. Among those were the late duties laid upon malt, of which the petitioners seemed to complain. It was with extreme reluctance he had felt himself obliged to impose those duties, which pressed so heavily on a large class of people. But his conviction of the general propriety of that measure still remained unaltered. He understood, however, that the petitioners were for the present willing to wave the complaints they had made against the operation of this tax. And the gentlemen who were to compose the committee, would have to consider what were the best measures to adopt for encreasing the agriculture of the country; and in what manner the wishes of the several respectable persons who had presented petitions to the house might be best promoted. The right hon. gent. then moved, that the petitions lately presented to the house from several counties, praying for a revision of the corn laws, be read; which being done, he moved, "that a select committee be appointed to inquire into so much of the said petitions as related to the act passed in the year 1791, for regulating the exportation and importation of corn."—The committee was accordingly appointed.