moved the order of the day for the house to resolve itself into a committee on the petitions from the linen manufacturers of Ireland, praying for a repeal of the duties lately imposed on the export linen trade.—The house having gone into the committee, the right hon. gent. proceeded to state the ground of the different petitions. They prayed for the repeal of the 4½ and 4 per cent. duty lately laid upon the export of Irish linen, which formed the staple commodity of Ireland, and on the export of which principally depended the prosperity of that country. That trade had, of late years, very considerably decreased; for since the year 1800, down to the last year, the export of Irish linen had decreased from 46 millions of yards to 36½. This decrease was greatly imputable to the tax; and in his mind, instead of the imposition of a new tax, a bounty should be granted on the export. Indeed a certain bounty had already been granted; but that bounty was counteracted by the tax, which involved an evident inconsistency in the measure. Instead, therefore, of a fresh duty being imposed, an increased bounty should, in his opinion, be rather granted. He could assure the house that it was the sense and feeling of the people of Ireland to solicit no favour, but what might extend to the advantage of the empire at large, and that they did not wish to acquire any benefit in which all, every part of the empire, did not equally participate. Under that impression, he moved the committee for leave to bring in a bill to exempt linen from all duties on export, from all the ports of the united kingdom.

observed, that cotton was applied to the same purposes as linen: perhaps, therefore, it might be well not to confine the indulgence now solicited to that branch only of our manufactures. Such a partial indulgence might have an unfavourable effect; perhaps, therefore, the house, at a future period, might feel it necessary either to put a check upon the indulgence now to be granted, or to grant a similar indulgence to the cotton branch.

said there was a striking difference between the condition of the two manufactures, the one flourished, the other was rapidly decaying; was it, therefore, to burthen with increased taxes the branch that was on the decline?

contended, that the cotton manufactures had already been expressly exempted.

said, that he seemed to be misunderstood by the hon. gent. He did not mean to discourage the present application, he confessed that the linen trade was more depressed than the cotton; he, therefore, at present, asked no indulgence for the latter.

complimented the worthy baronet on his liberality, and expressed his earnest wish that the two countries might meet each other in the foreign markets not as rivals, but as mutual friends. The only race which he was anxious to see Ireland run with Great Britain, was the race of liberality.

directed the attention of the house to the impolicy of the tax, the injurious effects of which were already so visible, and he trusted his right hon. friend who had brought forward the business, and who was now in power, would use that power for the protection and benefit of that trade on which the prosperity of Ireland almost solely depended. He did not, however, observe, that he had vacated his seat on accepting his high office.

said, there was no ground for his vacating his seat, and if he had vacated it, he could not now be present.

said, he should be always vigilant to see that no violation was made in the spirit of the articles of the union as they related to the mutual commercial advantages of the two countries; and he rejoiced to see that in the present instance that spirit was faithfully adhered to.—The motion was put and agreed to: the report of the committee was then received, and a bill ordered to be brought in pursuant to the resolution.

begged leave to ask the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, whether he would agree to a motion for an address to his Majesty, praying for directions to be given, that there be laid before the house copies, if any, of a treaty said to have been entered into between Gen. Dessalines, of St. Domingo, and Mr. Corbett, of Jamaica; in which treaty it was to be stipulated, that the govt. of St. Domingo might import slaves from Africa.

observed, that he was not yet prepared to give an explicit answer to that question. He felt, however, no hesitation in saying, that he understood an overture to that effect had been made by the govt. of St. Domingo; and he believed the fact, that a stipulation was proposed for leave to import negroes.

said, that the right hon. gent. had given him the whole of the information, which he was anxious to obtain.

moved the order of the day to be now read for the second reading of the additional force bill. It was ac-accordingly read, and upon the question that the bill be now read a second time,

rose to offer a few observations upon the subject of the bill. He owned that he felt some share of surprise, that since his Majesty's councils had received the additional aid of the right hon. gent., for he by no means considered the administration a new one, and after all the house had heard from him before upon the subject of the defence of the realm, and all the eloquence he had displayed in reprobating the inefficiency of those plans adopted by his predecessors, he did expect, now that he came ostensibly into office, to hear from him a plan fraught with all that energy, vigour, and efficiency of which he had talked with so much ability. He could not have thought, that after such an opening of his purpose as that with which he had a short time since entertained the house, and amused the country, that he should come forward with a plan, which, so far from seeming to his view to contain any feature of the promised efficiency, abandoned the only part of the plan of the former bill, which promised any thing like expedition, or efficiency, in completing the numbers of the public force, namely, the principle of ballotting; and that the only point of efficiency on which he seemed to place his first reliance, or, indeed, that at all promised to be productive, was that of calling on the several counties to make up forth with the deficit of their respective quotas of 9,000 men army of reserve, and 7,000 militia, still wanting to complete the number voted by parliament, which promised no further increase, in any reasonable time, than the addition of 16,000 men; while he abandons entirely the principle of ballotting, the only one which promised expedition and effect, and resorts to a principle by no means new; for it was no more than the revival of the plan carried into operation in the year 1796, for raising men for the navy, by calling on the counties and districts for quotas of men, but which did not procure above one tenth of the number proposed. The mode in which the right hon. gent. proposed to apply this measure, was by throwing the men so raised into second battalions, though raised for fencible service, in hopes of thus infusing into them a military spirit, and inducing them to enlist in the first battalion, which may, at the same time, be upon duty in the East or West Indies, and thus to confound every idea of regularity in the service. But this was consistency and perfect order, compared with the proposal of the right hon. gent., for the promotion and interchange of officers, where-by the senior officer in the second battalion was to be promoted to the junior rank in the first, and the junior in the first sent back for senior rank in the second. Thus, officers who had been detached to the East or West Indies, or other foreign countries, upon the most arduous service, and whose superiors falling in action opened to them views of speedy promotion, would have the mortification of being sent back to England, after years of arduous service, to a second battalion, and senior lieutenancy, perhaps, while officers who had remained quietly and comfortably in England, would be sent to receive promotion in the senior battalion, in whose arduous services they had borne no part. This arrangement, he was confident, so far from being satisfactory and encouraging to meritorious and active officers, would be productive of general discontent. The mode of raising the men also, instead of by the ordinary one of recruiting, was to be by the parish officers, at a bounty of six guineas, to whom some small premium was to be given per man, by way of encouraging their diligence in the raising of these men; but if they failed in completing their quota within a given time, then a penalty somewhat higher than the bounty was to be levied upon the parish for each man deficient. It would be recollected, that while the parish officers were allowed to give only six guineas per man, the recruiting serjeants were allowed to offer ten guineas: the result of which would be, to create so much difficulty in raising the men, that the parishes would rather abandon the task altogether, and pay the difference between the bounty allowed them and the fine to be levied, and then the expense would operate as a partial tax upon landed property. He was not prepared at this moment to go fully into a detail of the whole bill, which, however, appeared to him, in many parts, fraught with very objectionable principles. It had been very aptly described by an hon. member, not now in his place, as a renovation of the quota bill of 1795; and he was confident it would have a similar effect, and not raise one-tenth of the number of men proposed to be obtained by it. He could not forget that measure, and the manner in which it was carried into effect, as the immediate source of the calamitous mutiny which shortly afterwards occurred in our fleet at the Nore. The right hon. gent. seemed to think otherwise, but he thought there could be no cause more likely than placing on board our fleet men so totally different in all respects from the character of British seamen, men who were ripe for any species of sedition, or conspiracy, the very scum and dregs of the population of the country. The object of this bill was to raise men expeditiously for the army of the line, but the question for the house to consider was, whether or not it was likely to effect that end? For his own part, he thought the contrary would be the result, and that the ordinary mode of recruiting would be incomparably more productive, if the right hon. gent. could make up his mind to abandon the grand impeding principle of inlisting for life. He felt the fullest confidence that if the right hon. gent. would consent to abandon that principle, and make such arrangements as to constitute the West-India duty a distinct service, he would effect the object of completing the public force with a rapidity and effect which, under this bill, would be impracticable. He should therefore oppose the second reading of the bill.

denied that the men to be raised by the present bill could be fairly compared to the quota men of 1795. A very material distinction was to be seen in the manner in which the two bodies of men were raised. The quota men were raised at the expense of the parish, with the dread of a very heavy penalty if they were not raised within a limited period; the parish officers, therefore, had recourse to extraordinary means to obtain them. The men to be raised by the present bill were to be raised at the expense of govt.; the parish officers were only made the instruments of raising them; and if any duty was imposed, without a fine being imposed in case of failure or neglect to perform that duty, there was but little use in saying that the duty should be performed by one person more than another. There was besides this, a great good to be seen in this measure, which the hon. gent. had seemed entirely to overlook; the ballot, which formerly excited so much apprehension in the minds of the public, would be now put an end to. The effects of the bill would not be, as formerly, to throw the burden entirely on the poor, but would place them on an equal footing with the rich, as far as the operation of the bill went. From a due consideration of the state of the country, from the absolute necessity which he saw for raising an additional military force at the present period, and from the excellence of the plan proposed, he should give it his most hearty support.

declared, that in rising on the present occasion it was not at all his intention to give any thing like factious opposition. It was a principle which he should always hold, that it was the duty of every one to support the govt., if he was satisfied that their measures were calculated to promote the interests of the country. Consistently, however, with the opinions which he had formerly delivered respecting the defence of the country, and the idea which he had formed of this bill, from the short consideration which he had been able to give it, he could not afford it his support. Some parts of the measure he certainly did approve of, while others were of a nature which did not seem to him fit to be entertained by the house. He confessed that the idea of enlisting men for limited service might, if properly organized, be productive of the greatest advantage; and he allowed, that such was the system adopted by all the great military powers of Europe, Still, the practicability of recruiting the army effectually by this plan was a matter of doubt. A scheme, indeed, of separating colonial from general service had been in agitation, and if reduced to practice might produce very important consequences. Till, however, that was effected, we must look to other means of keeping up our regular military force. Till such a measure was brought about, he did not see how, independent of ballot, this supply could be regularly obtained. It was never attempted in any of the countries of Europe to keep up the army by voluntary offers of service, in Austria, in Prussia, in France, in Russia, compulsory measures were uniformly resorted to, and a ballot more or less extensive was employed for the purpose. Without such a measure, the military establishment of these countries could never have been preserved; and, in the present circumstances of this country, ballot was equally necessary to keep up such an army as our present situation imperiously demanded. As a friend to the militia system, as well as to the army of reserve, he could not but think that the ballotting system ought to have been retained. But, to direct his observations more particularly to the question, he declared, that to the general principle of the bill he had no specific objection. He objected to the bill; first, as to the amount of the men proposed to be raised; secondly, as to the manner of their being raised; and thirdly, as to the time in which the measure had been brought forward. Before he proceeded to make a few observations on these points, he begged leave to say, that it was pretty generally allowed, that under the measures of the late govt., a degree of security as applicable to any foreign danger had been obtained, and that we had come to that state which called on us to look to our means of providing a disposable force. The danger formerly existing was admitted to have been at least so far abated as to give us an opportunity of turning our attention to a permanent system for recruiting and keeping up to its full complement our regular army—an army not only calculated to meet the emergency then existing, but to prepare us for any future contests in which we might happen to be involved. It was with this view that the bill was introduced, and the house were called on to view it as the foundation of a permanent military establishment. In this light he considered it, and viewing it in this light, he meant to apply his present observations. The number of men proposed to be raised was the first ground of the objections which he had to state against the bill. The number appeared to him to be too great to be at all consistent with the recruiting for the regular army. It was proposed that the militia should be reduced to 40,000 for England and 8,000 for Scotland. In this case there would be a diminution to the amount of 20,000 for England, while the diminution for Scotland would be to the amount of 4,000. This number it was intended to throw altogether into the army of reserve, by which arrangement the number would be augmented to no less than 65,000. This was an arrangement which he could not possibly support; for it directly interfered with the recruiting both for the regular army and for the marines, the number of which were now considerably below the number voted by parliament. The knowledge of the deficiencies in both of these branches of the service, was, he declared, one strong inducement for him to propose the suspension of the army of reserve act for one year. With, regard to the proposed reduction of the militia, he had no objection to the plan, and he did not see that leaving the whole number at 48,000, would be attended with any bad consequences. But what he objected to was, the throwing all the vacancies as they occurred to be filled up, in the army of reserve. If the army of reserve were thus to be supported, it was quite ridiculous to talk of filling up the regular army, which, now that our means of internal defence were completed, was admitted on all hands to be the great object of attention. If it was attempted to fill up the numbers of the army of reserve to the amount proposed, he had no difficulty in declaring it as his opinion, that the attempt would be totally disappointed. With regard to the mode in which the men were to be raised, he had an equally distinct objection. He was convinced, that in proportion as the severity of the provisions of the army of reserve act were relaxed, the plan of filling up the the deficiencies would become altogether nugatory. An hon. friend of his (Sir R. Buxton) had congratulated the house on the idea that, as the plan now stood, it would release the land owner from the severe pressure under which, by the provisions of the reserve act, he had laboured. He himself confessed that he was rather at a loss to understand how this was to be effected. The only efficacious principle of the plan, as it now stands, is, the infliction of the fine, in cases where a sufficient number of men were not procured. If the fine was to be levied at all, it must be levied principally on the land owners, and this being the case, it was not very easy to see in what the alteration adverted to by the hon. baronet consisted. The present measure appeared to him to have in its mode of execution, a considerable affinity to the quota bill. It had been said, that aright hon. friend near him (Mr. Addington) had on a former night, declared, that not one-tenth of the number of men to be raised by the bill had been procured. Undoubtedly, this assertion is not to be taken in the full extent, so far as the recruits for the army and navy were concerned. As to the navy, nearly the quota numbers were procured; but it was very different indeed with the army. It was true that about 7,000 men were raised; but then, out of this number, not more than 1,400 were retained as efficient for military service. He had reason to believe, that when he reckoned the number so high, he rather over-rated than diminished their amount. At this moment, the whole remains of these recruits which had been connected with different corps, were embodied in the 61st regt. at Malta, and their whole number was not above 600. With these facts before them, he called on the house to consider how far it would be proper, under the existing circumstances of the country, to lay aside the balloting system? He asked, whether it was possible reasonably to expect that we should, independent of compulsory measures, have such an army as all professed anxious to see established? The principle of the militia establishment was founded on ballot. It was recognized and acknowledged by the wisdom of our ancestors. It had, on many occasions, been the grand source of our security. At the commencement of a war, it enabled us to preserve our rank and consequence in the scale of nations. It was not, therefore, wise nor politic to give up a certainty for an uncertainty, to relinquish what had been proved, what had either not been tried, or had been tried and totally failed. As to the bounty proposed to be given to those who volunteered their services, there was nothing novel in the plan. The same regulation, though to a less extent, had prevailed ever since the year 1756, when it was fixed that those who were balloted for, should receive one-half of the bounty.—On the whole, he was convinced, that if the men were to be obtained, they would be obtained only by compulsory measures, or by the operation of a ballot. With regard to the time in which the plan was brought forward, he had to offer a few observations. Having provided for the defence of the country against the dangers, however formidable which threatened it; having at this moment 500,000 men in arms; a force, which, if it was not adequate to repel any invader, the country was not worth defending; the great object, as he had repeatedly observed, was, the augmentation of our disposable force. When he alluded to this, he referred to the augmentation of our infantry of the line, for we had a sufficient supply of cavalry and artillery. Under this impression the members of his Majesty's late govt. had applied themselves to the consideration of this object, and formed a plan for carrying it into effect. They had resolved that a certain number of second battalions should be raised, to be attached to some of the oldest regiments in the service. They had determined also, that ten new battalions should be formed, principally in Ireland and Scotland, with the greatest possible dispatch. He took it for granted that this plan was now to be abandoned; for if the bill proceeded, the number of men proposed to be raised could not be procured. Those who were most sanguine in their expectations from the bill, trusted a great deal to the patriotism and public spirit of the people. He would be the last man to disparage this patriotism or public spirit. In the application of the army of reserve act, they had unquestionably displayed themselves in the most conspicuous colours. By the numbers of men which, under the aid of this spirit, that act had procured the foundation of our security was permanently established. Whatever sanguine expectations gentlemen entertained on the subject, he was free to confess that he did not at all relish the mode in which this success, if it was effected, was to be obtained. If parish officers were to act in procuring the recruits from their respective districts, they must of course expect to receive some compensation or reward for their labour. In this way he could not help conceiving that they would assume the character and habits of mere crimps; a species of beings to be detested and scouted in every virtuous community. It did not appear to him that in point of time the bill was at all of an urgent nature, that it held out any rational prospect of the immediate effect of the bill, even if passed into a law, and that no ground had been adduced for the house proceeding with precipitation, he therefore should oppose the 2d reading of the bill on the present occasion. He thought it should lie over till next session, and, in the mean-time, the right honourable gentleman might consider the whole military system of the country.

said, he was happy to find, from the speech of the rt. hon. gent. who had just sat down, that he did not at all go into the ideas of another rt. hon gent. (Mr. Addington) on a former evening, that the bill was inconsistent with the principles of a free constitution. He was equally satisfied to see that the measure was not described as one either nugatory or oppressive. The rt. hon. gent. had contended against the efficacy of the bill, but had not maintained that its provisions were at all vexatious. It had been distinctly admitted, that at the present moment there was the strongest necessity for the augmentation of our regular disposable force. With the view of accomplishing this object, the bill, among other things, proposed the reduction of the militia, and this he conceived must appear a very important consideration. If a large disposable military force had became necessary, there was one of the most efficacious means for obtaining it. It had for a considerable time been the decided opinion of some of the best informed individuals in the country, that the present extent of the militia establishment was equally impolitic and inexpedient. Recent circumstances had occurred to give additional weight to that opinion. Since the union with Ireland, it has been found desirable that a large disposable force should be left for the service of that part of the united empire, and for that reason it has been contended that the services of the respective militias should be reciprocal. For grave reasons, it had not been thought proper at present to adopt this arrangement; but at the same time, if a disposable force for the protection of Ireland was on all hands admitted to be necessary, this afforded a strong argument for the gradual diminution of the militia of this country, and in their room to have a force whose services should extend to every part of the united kingdom. This was the object of the bill, and so far it had his decided support, and appeared to have powerful claims to the support of the house. As to the means by which the number of men to be raised by the bill were to be procured, he begged leave to make a very few remarks. It had been contended that, as the measure now stood, it would operate with peculiar pressure on the land owners; and for that reason, a right hon. gent. (Mr. Addington) had described it as highly oppressive. He confessed himself astonished to hear such language from the right hon. gent. under whose administration not less than 100,000 men had been raised by ballot. Did the rt. hon. gent. mean to assert, that the balloting system was attended with no inconveniencies and no hardships? He certainly could not hold such language. The thing was altogether impossible. If the question came to be strictly considered, it would be difficult to shew that there was even justice, far less humanity, in the system of balloting. The fact is, it either operated on the lower orders as a measure of compulsory service, or on those of better circumstances as a tax for the commutation of their services. Whether it operated in the one way or the other, it was impossible to deny that it was accompanied with harshness and severity. It had been argued, that though, the army of reserve act was severe in its pressure, it was only a temporary, instead of what the present, act meant to be, a permanent measure. It was not very easy to see on what ground this assertion was founded. If the army of reserve act was carefully examined, it would be rather a hard task to shew that it was not, in all points of view, as much of a permanent nature as that now before the house. There was not a single clause in the reserve act from which its temporary duration could be inferred. It was not fair, then, to employ these sort of arguments against the measure. It was but what candour required that it should stand on its merits impartially stated. The present bill was confessedly more lenient than the reserve act, and all argument drawn against it as a permanent measure were premature and unjustifiable. It had been affirmed that the present measure was nearly assimilated to the quota bill, and that this last measure had not obtained one-tenth part of the number of men which it was designed to procure. He was really at a loss to know what the documents were which could warrant an assertion so confidently brought before the house. The documents respecting the number of men procured for the army were not prepared with sufficient accuracy. With regard to the number procured for the navy, however, this was not the case. He could state confidently that of the 6,000 which were required, nearly 5,000 were actually levied and distributed among numbers of his Majesty's ships. But the present measure differs in one most important respect from the quota bill. In that case the bounties were unlimited, and in many instances they were enormously high. The whole was done by the parishes without the interference of the legislature at all. In the present case, the bounties were to be positively restricted. It was insinuated, that the men procured by this bill might be in character similar to those obtained by the quota bill, who had been described as the scum of society, as a set of individuals who carried with them disease and disaffection wherever they approached. On this point he had to say, that if improper persons were then introduced into the army and navy, it was not because they were drawn from the scum of society. It was because, in many instances, the bounties were so enormous that persons even above the lower orders of life were induced to enter the army of navy who otherwise would never have thought of entering into either. Such an inconvenience was now to be completely removed, and the only object which was in view was to prevent all the clashing and competition which high bounties had produced in all the branches of the service. If even the plan should not be so efficient as the system by ballot, still the regular army would have a better opportunity for recruiting, divested of all rivalry and competition. But a good deal had been said relative to the expediency of enlisting for a limited term of service. If the right hon. gent. however, who spoke last, was well founded in his opinion, that the bill would be altogether inefficient, then the recruiting for the regular army would not be at all affected. It had been admitted, that there was a deficiency of 9,000 men in the army of reserve, and the late ministers had confessed, that to attempt to supply this deficiency was a vain attempt. The bill professed to make this attempt, and it was surely but fair that the experiment should be tried. But it seems that a large body of men were to be raised for general service. He professed he did not see when it was found that the inducement of high bounties and limited service did not allure men to enlist, how a hope can be entertained of effecting this object without these inducements, and under the positive existence of reduced bounty. The great drawback to the recruiting formerly was, that those who had a desire to go into the army kept back in the hope that a still higher bounty might present itself. But, by the measure now before the house, this expectation would be removed. A permanent system would be looked up to, and recruiting would then have a chance of fair and full operation. The effect of the measure would, in the first instance, be to raise a force only for limited service; but the experience of what took place in the course of a few months, was sufficient to give us the best hopes of its effects. In these few months no fewer than 30,000 troops had volunteered for general service, and if this was the case, under very unfavourable circumstances, what might not be expected under those of the most encouraging nature, and when the number of the reserve would be increased from 40 to 60 or 70,000? On the local recruiting, which the bill goes to encourage, he wished to make a single observation. The effect of this system he needed not to describe. It must be obvious to every one who reflected for a moment on the subject. During the existence of the ballot, if a substitute was to be procured, those wanting him were not confined to their own district. They might go into the most populous districts and towns in the kingdom, from which alone the recruits for the regular army could be expected. By the provisions of the bill, however, this evil was remedied, and the field was left clear for the recruiting of the regular army. On the whole the rt. hon. gent. was fully convinced of the expediency of the bill, and sat down by giving it his decided support.

said, he thought he should find vigour and efficiency in the measures of the present administration, from the frequent charges made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer against his predecessor, for neglect and tardiness, but he was surprised that no proof was as yet given of the superior excellence of the one to the other. On reading this bill, he found, that it gave a power to the crown to enrol and raise 60 or 70,000 men, and to apply the money for raising them independently of Parliament. From the mode to be pursued by this act, the power of raising the money for this purpose was entirely put out of the control of parliament, and entirely subject to the disposal of the crown. Combining this point with the permanence of the army establishment under this bill, he must say, that he felt some jealousy, if not alarm, from carrying it into effect. History was loud and convincing on this subject; it informed us how dangerous it was to raise large permanent military forces, which had generally overthrown the very governments which gave them birth, and involved in the ruin of the government itself the destruction of property, liberty, and independence. He was educated in principles contrary to such an establishment, and could not help being influenced by his early prejudices in favour of a constitutional force. When he looked at, and considered the tendency of this bill, he trembled for the consequences so much, that he should refuse it his assent. In considering the essential part of the bill, it would be found inadequate to the purpose for which it was framed, namely, the augmentation of our regular force. It proposed to raise a number of men in a particular manner; but it did not do so on any ground of certainty, it left the increase of that force, which was desired, entirely problematical; hence we could never calculate, with any degree of precision or accuracy, the state of our real strength. Notwithstanding all the preliminary details of the right hon. gent., yet, if general recruiting failed him, this whole force, from which we were to expect such advantages, must disappoint its sanguine supporters; for although the sum to be paid for the man was limited, yet the fine, in case the quota could not be procured, was to be given and applied in the ordinary way of recruiting; hence recruiting in the usual manner was the only ground of raising the men ultimately. The object was evidently then to embody and fix a regular standing army, in doing which, it was proposed to reduce and depart from the militia system, which was a constitutional force, found hitherto adequate to the purposes and exigencies of the country; a force which, in its principle, was consonant to the wishes and feelings of the people, and sanctioned by our ancestors. If he had the option, or if his opinion could have any weight in the decision of this question, he should undoubtedly prefer a constitutional force, as being, in his mind, the most efficient in every point of view. He should depend on the energy, spirit, loyalty, and zeal of such a force, actuated by a reverence for the constitution, a respect for the laws, and impressed with an awe for the institutions and memory of their ancestors: he should place greater reliance on such a force than any other, on the principle that those who felt that they were fighting for their own freedom and rights, would not invade the rights or privileges of the rest of their countrymen. Another objection he had to this force was, that it would be separated from the people; that a kind of unnatural barrier was raised, by its constitution, between it and the rest of the community; no interchange of sentiments, no collision of opinion, no reciprocity of interest or good offices were to take place between the armed and unarmed descriptions of the people. This was not what he wished for, it could not be agreeable to the feelings of the public, or of any man who reflected seriously on the calamities which might happen from a force thus excluding all social intercourse and communion with the rest of the nation. He should like to see a force established which would comprehend in it the gentlemen of the country, who would not be warped by any military or excluding spirit froth the real interest of their native land, and who would, therefore, be always prepared to counteract the dangers which might be otherwise apprehended from a standing army. But it was said, and ardently hoped, by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) that the men will readily enter into the regular army out of the army of reserve. Will they enter it at all, or transfer their service from the one force to the other without an additional bounty? If the right hon. gent. thought so, he was afraid experience would fatally convince him of the fallacy of this opinion, for there was not a man in the country so ignorant, who was not aware, on entering the army of reserve, that it was intended he should enter into the line; hence, from the very beginning, his idea of bounty must be present to his mind. But how were the men to be procured in the first instance? By the exertions of the parish officers and overseers of the poor. They shall provide the men, says the right hon. gent.: it would be more appropriate, perhaps, if he had said, they may procure them if they can. He disapproved of the fine proposed to be paid, if the men could not be procured in the parish or district, and considered it a direct tax on landed property. He thought it an extraordinary and severe clause in this bill, to oblige those parish officers to pay a fine for what they could not perform. If they had used their utmost endeavours to find the men, and failed, surely it was contrary to every principle of justice and of the British constitution, to inflict a mulct or fine on them for not having done what they strove to do, but were unable to accomplish. With regard to the officers, therefore, it was unfair on the face of it, if they fruitlessly exerted themselves; and if they did not, then their neglect, for which there was no remedy provided, would be unfair with respect to the country, which was obliged to pay, or add to the fine, in order to raise the number which the officers might have provided, but which they had neglected. In the machinery of the militia and army of reserve, he recollected that the want of this controling principle was very much felt; for it was not unusual to postpone the general meetings for balloting during many months; and although much inconvenience had arisen from such delays, yet there was neither fine nor penalty imposed. It was better, perhaps, that they did not take place, because, in all probability, no person could be found to undertake the execution of them. He regretted that the present ministers left it in his power to apply to them all the terms of tardiness and inefficiency which they had used against their predecessors. In speaking of the ministers, he wished to be understood to allude to one half only, the other being composed of the late administration. He thought, upon the whole, that the last administration had gone on quietly and unostentatiously in adopting measures sufficient for the security of the country; and he did not know how the majority of the present cabinet, who were also the majority of the last cabinet, could now condemn their former measures; unless, like the French surgeon, who supposed the transfusion of young blood would make an old animal young again, they should now suppose that the accession of a few men of considerable talents altered completely the cabinet.

did not think that, among the various objections which gentlemen might choose to make to this bill, they would urge that it was unconstitutional. At such a period of difficulty and danger as the present, menaced as this country was by a formidable and powerful enemy, surely there could be but one opinion as to the necessity of raising a large disposable force, capable not only of contributing essentially to our defence at home, but able likewise to avenge our wrongs, and assert our rights abroad. There was no plan which was not liable to objections; that was no reason, however, why one with the fewest defects should not be adopted. But the hon. gent. who spoke last, said, in censuring other parts of the bill, that the country would be unsafe with 60 or 70,000 men, raised according to the present plan; he seemed to think that the establishment of such a permanent force at home would lead to the overthrow of our freedom. In answer to this objection of the hon. gent., he could urge the controling power of parliament, which, as it erected that system, could also arrange, reduce, or abolish it. He was not one of those who came under the description of saying, that the country was not in a state of defence, or that the force of the country should have been carried to a much greater length than it was by the late ministers; his opinion was, that the force of the country ought to be raised with as little pressure as possible on the people, and with the greatest respect for their feelings, disposition, and prejudices; if this mode were adopted, he was sure that gentlemen would find the source of recruiting more abundant than they imagined. In this view of the subject, it must be satisfactory that balloting was entirely done away; for if there was one part of the system more than another which excited general disgust and disinclination to a military life, it was balloting. He did not mean to censure this system, when he considered the time at which it was adopted; he spoke now of the army of reserve, for that was a most critical and dangerous period, when it became incumbent on us to resort to every temporary expedient in order to put us out of peril; but seeing that the apprehension which then existed for our immediate security, was now in a great measure done away, the view which the people would take of a permanent establishment at present would be exceedingly different from that which they might heretofore, when they had acted under the impression of immediate danger, to repel which they were not so well prepared. At such a time the house must be aware that they would submit cheerfully to many sacrifices which they may be inclined to refuse now that the storm has to a great extent subsided. When they felt themselves perfectly safe at home, they would be the more inclined, and justly, to enquire and scrutinize the mode of raising our disposable and offensive forces.—With an obvious regard to these important considerations, the plan before the house proposed limited service in the first instance, as that which was most popular, and of course most available. It was fair to expect from its operation that it would be attended with all the success which was expected, particularly when it was considered, that the army of reserve had already supplied 13,000 recruits to the troops of the line. Was there not reason, therefore, to hope for a further continuance of the same benefit and augmentation from this source? He was certainly a friend to limited service, and approved of the proposition of the hon. gent. (Mr. Fox) who made it; particularly if an arrangement was made for raising a colonial force, as he heard it was the intention of the minister to do; such an arrangement would meet the approbation of every humane and liberal mind that considered the losses this country had sustained by maintaining an European force in the colonies. He did not mean to say, however, that he had penetrated the mind of the right hon. gent., or had any knowledge of what he might have in contemplation on this subject. He must differ from the right hon. gent. opposite to him, (Mr. Addington) who would postpone the farther consideration of this bill till some time next session. As it was agreed, on all hands, that the regular force of the country should be augmented, surely then, the progress of a bill which had this object in view, ought to be facilitated and promoted with the utmost rapidity. When the men raised according to the provisions of this bill were trained and disciplined, then our whole regular force, which was at present much restricted, would then become disposable to the amount of 70,000, of which it consisted in G. Britain, Ireland, and in the Islands in the Channel. This plan could not be considered different from that of his Majesty's late ministers, who proposed bringing over the Irish militia in order to effect the same object. He was not a friend to innovation on the militia system, but was friendly at the same time to the alteration intended in it, for the sake of increasing our disposable forces. He knew no better mode of succeeding, in this respect, than by raising the men locally, and through the medium of parish officers, who may be presumed to be the most fit for that purpose, from their knowledge of every circumstance of the individuals within their jurisdiction, aided also by the local influence of the gentlemen, who would be induced to exert it, from a desire to save the fine, as well as from motives of zeal and patriotism. The quota men had been spoken of, and relied much on, as ground against this bill, by the right hon. gent. opposite to him (Mr. Yorke); but, although the act for raising them was not attended with all the advantages expected from it, yet he apprehended the deficiencies were not as great as they were represented to have been; for which reason he could wish that the returns were before the house, in order that it could make up its mind fully and satisfactorily on the subject. But when gentlemen talked of the hardship of this bill, he wished them to recollect the oppression felt by the country from the army of reserve, and the consequent aversion of the people to its continuance. The cause was obviously the hardship imposed by the balloting. This was not the only objection to it. But it should be considered, that so long as the balloting continues, its concomitant evil of high bounties will not cease to operate. He should again refer to the plan of the hon. gent, below him (Mr. Fox), for limited service in general, and observe, that if it were adopted in time of peace, or of less danger than the country was menaced with at present, he should give it his support, and entertain the greatest hope of its success; but he did not think that experiments could be made under the circumstances of the nation at this moment. We should, therefore, continue a plan which was tried to a certain extent, and found to answer; it takes away that which was considered objectionable and oppressive, he meant balloting and high bounties; it did not call for one man more than the country was already obliged, by the existing acts, to furnish, with this material difference, that the mode of doing so, and of complying with the act, was more easy, and of course more popular. From every consideration he was obliged to give it, and from every view he had taken of it, he was convinced that it was eligible, and fully adequate to the purposes for which it was intended.

wished the present bill to be judged of rather by its own merits than by comparing the system of the present administration with that of their predecessors. He could not give a silent vote on the present occasion, but must declare his disapprobation of it. He did not like to impose on the people burdens which were laid in a partial manner, as it seemed to him these fines would be; as they would frequently operate with a considerable degree of hardship on those who, from their own act or their own inclination, had been guilty of no fault whatever, but had only had the misfortune of not being able to raise men. He objected particularly to that part of the bill by which overseers are permitted to raise men even in adjoining parishes. He should have disapproved of it, had they even been confined within the limits of their own parish, as a bad mode of raising men; but, as it now stands, they are made, to all intents and purposes, recruiting serjeants. He thought, also, that it was an unjust, as well as a round-about way, to raise men for unlimited service, by means of an intermediate and limited service. Why, he asked, not do it at once? By the mode proposed by the bill, it will become a policy to enter first into the army of reserve, and having received the bounty for so doing, to obtain a second and a higher bounty to enter into the regular army, which would be an additional burden on the public. He found himself, therefore, under the necessity of with-holding his assent to a measure which was, in his mind, inadequate to all the purposes for which it was intended.

felt himself actuated by no principle or motive but that of doing his duty to his country; and, therefore, did not wish to enter into any comparison between the present and late administration. He could not forbear, however, from observing, that he saw nothing as yet produced by the present minister which was entitled to greater confidence or respect than what his predecessors had brought forward. He granted that the army of reserve was necessary in its first institution to meet the pressing exigencies of the state, and to repel the dangers which seemed to menace us with destruction. But it should not be said, that, because a measure was introduced, and thought necessary at one time of imminent peril, that it should be therefore, continued, when the danger and critical circumstances in which it had originated had ceased to exist, at least to any great degree. The substantial result of the plan would be to endeavour to augment the regular army through the agency of poor-house overseers and parish officers, and to raise a force, at the same time that the money would be supplied without the control or superintendance of parliament. It was giving a power to raise money or a tax on the people, who were already sufficiently burdened by the demands of the state, for carrying on the war. The army of reserve bill he had always considered as extremely oppressive; and in support of this opinion he instanced one estate within his knowledge, amounting only to £2,700 a year, which had paid £400 in the course of seven months to the army of reserve. He objected to several parts of the bill, particularly the fines; and concluded, by saying, that if the house consented to raise an army by such partial modes of taxation, they would, in his opinion, be doing the greatest injustice.

could not agree with an hon. gent, as to the security of the country being so great as he represented, though he acknowledged that its security was greatly increased. Nothing, however, appeared to him more strange, in the variety of opinions delivered on this subject, and amidst the collision of the great and leading characters, who had taken part in discussing it from time to time, than that they should have forgotten or neglected to state how this force should be disposed of in time of peace, and how it could be raised constitutionally. History too fatally proved the danger of raising new forces without great deliberation, and warned us of the peril to be apprehended from the establishment of a large army on any ground but the most pressing exigency, which he acknowledged to exist at present. Yet the house should not forget that the parliament in the reign of Charles the First did not foresee the conduct of the army which they had raised, or that it would be the instrument of overturning the power which it was designed to uphold. France was another instance of the danger incurred by establishing a permanent and large army. Every member in the house knew, that 25 millions of people, animated by what was called the ardour of freedom, had, under that impression, performed prodigies of valour; yet that they had at length submitted, and were now succumbing under the most degrading yoke, and most ignominious slavery, which had at any time disgraced the world, or tarnished the page of history; and we all knew that this strange event was accomplished by 3 or 400,000 men. This was an example which this country would do well to consider with attention. Our constitution was altogether different from that of the continental nations, and he much wished, that ministers would employ their talents in improving the military system, which in this country was most powerful, when most consonant to the free principles of our civil constitution. With these impressions upon his mind, he should be under the necessity of voting against the present bill.

, before he entered on the discussion of the question which was regularly before the house, wished to make some observations on the argument which was principally urged by the three gentlemen who last spoke against the bill, and that was, that by the operation of it a very great burthen would be thrown on the parochial officers. He could not concur in that objection, for any one who looked into our municipal regulations would perceive, that for the last 50 or 60 years that description of persons have always been charged with the duty of raising men. Where was the hardship then? If any gent, read the present bill, he would find that there was no compassion on the parish officers to procure men, they were subject to no fine in case of not succeeding, and he could not see why, at a crisis when all of us were by duty bound to contribute our most strenuous exertions towards the protection of the state, that whatever they, in furtherance of that great object, should be required by the present bill to perform, could be considered as either onerous or oppressive. The other argument which had been advanced by those hon. gentlemen, that it was raising men not by parliamentary taxation, was, in his mind, quite as untenable as the one he had adverted to, and he hoped confuted. To be convinced of that, he would only call on any gent, who doubted it, to read the bill, and he would there find, that the only taxation the parishes would be subject to was a moderate fine, in case the recruits they were charged with were not procured. Whatever differences of opinion might have subsisted between the various parties in that house, there was one thing in which they were agreed, that it was necessary to create a great disposable force. For if any thing could put an end to the war in which we were unfortunately engaged, if any thing could convince the active and daring enemy with whom we had to contend, that we are not with impunity to be unjustly attacked, it would be the circumstance of having a great disposable force at our command. Occasions may, and, he trusted, would arise, when it would be necessary for us to employ it; we should, therefore, be prompt and decisive, and prepare ourselves for that possible emergency. A right hon. gent. (Mr. Yorke), objected to the measure, because he considered it as compulsory. He feared the right hon. gent. had not read the bill, and that he had taken his opinion of it from what he had heard thrown out on a former night; for in the bill before them there was not a single clause that could be considered as compulsory in its operation. Another right hon. gent. (Mr. Addington), had suggested the propriety of deferring the measure to the next session, but in that, he believed, he could scarcely find a person to agree with him, at least among those who usually sat at the other side of the house. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Yorke), who is a friend, he might almost say by birth, to the militia system, was of opinion, that the measure would be inefficient, and for this reason, that he thought the country had been exhausted by the recruiting service, seeing that 30,000 men had enlisted into the army of reserve. He could not coincide in that opinion, and he was sure the right hon. gent., when he made it, did not consider that there was an annual supply of recruits to be obtained in this country, chiefly from the large manufacturing towns, and from young men who were just out of their apprenticeships. He gave his hearty concurrence to the bill, as destroying altogether the system of ballot. He would not longer trespass on the attention of the house, as no doubt there were many gentlemen anxious to deliver their opinions on the plan—a plan which, in its present constitutional form, had his hearty support, and to which most probably he would not have objected as originally proposed, if the necessity of our situation had unfortunately required it.

expressed himself adverse to the provisions and operation of the bill, as pregnant with the greatest partiality and injustice. It would be absolutely impossible for the magistrates in the county of Sussex, which was one of the most populous counties in the kingdom, to carry this bill into effect in the manner now proposed. The poors' rates in that county were greater than in any other part of the kingdom. If the fines proposed by this act were, in addition to that high rate, to be imposed, it would be a burden hardly to be borne. Looking over to Mr. Addington, he assured that right hon. gent., that he needed not view him as one who entertained any animosity towards him. He had never meant to turn him out of the ministry. He had merely meant that administration should comprehend the greatest man in the country. He had merely wished to see it comprehend that hon. gent. (Mr. Fox), who would have carried on the war greatly and honourably; whose coming into office would have roused and secured the spirit of the country; and who would, if it could be obtained, have procured us an honourable peace. He was sorry to see proscriptive doctrines characterise any of the measures of this country. He knew his Sovereign; he knew his opinion of that hon. gent.; and he knew that while he had the bravest and most magnanimous, he also possessed one of the most forgiving spirits in the country—(A cry of Order! Order!)

begged that the hon. gent. would recollect himself.

observed, that he would not wish to say any thing out of order, but he thought the Sovereign's name might be mentioned, if it was not introduced to cause any influence on the debate. He then said, that next to our beloved Sovereign's—.

repeated, that what the hon. member said was not connected with the present debate.

continued—Well, then, Sir, I am sorry there was not a coalition; a sentiment, which, I am convinced, pervades the whole country. As to that part of the bill which relates to the militia, it appears to me to be very proper, and I hope that in the course of 4 or 5 years, we shall be able to bring the militia to its original form, which was to instruct every man in the kingdom in the use of arms, and which came up to what the hon. gent. below me (Mr. Fox) so properly and emphatically called an armed peasantry, which I coincide in opinion with that hon. gent., would be the most tremendous force that any invading army could possibly have to encounter. As I approve of some part of the bill, I shall not oppose its going into a committee, in case the house should agree to the second reading, but on the report I shall give it my decided negative.

said, he could perceive that the adherents of the late administration, as well as their principals who composed it, could not be induced to approve of any bill for the national defence except that which they had brought in. For their success and ability in that respect, he would only refer to the volunteer bill and the income act. The former they were never able, with all their means and perseverance, to push through both houses of parliament, and the income tax was so unintelligible that little or no collection, even to this day, had been made under it. Of the gent, who had spoken in such vaunting language of his acting from conscientious motives, he would ask, was the member for Lincoln the only independent man in that house? was he the only member who did not want a place?—(Order! Order! Chair! Chair! from different parts of the house.)

decided it to be disorderly to make any personal allusions.

. I appeal to you, Sir, and to the house, whether I brought a charge against any member of the house, either for city or borough, or against his constituents, for not sending independent members. I ask, and I hope I am not wrong in so doing, if I did any thing more than assume to myself independence; and that I did not trouble the house often, and never but from a sense of duty? If I said any thing calculated to offend any gent., I most humbly beg pardon; if I have said any thing that tended to convey a thought that hon. members were actuated by any but independent motives, I am liable to be called to order for indecorum, and I am obliged to the house for overlooking an offence which I had no intention to commit.

professed himself satisfied with the declaration of the hon. gent., and, disclaiming all intention of meaning any thing personal to him, conceived he had a right to advert to what had been thrown out in debate. The object of the bill was to provide for the deficiency produced in our military system by the former administration, a deficiency which had been often alluded to, and censured by the gentlemen on the other side of the house, and which, he had no doubt, they would have occasion to censure again. An hon. member opposite to him (Mr. Fuller), had disapproved of the bill for a most extraordinary reason, namely, that the present administration was not formed on a broad basis. If we had not an administration on a sufficiently broad basis, it was not the fault of the right hon. gent. below him (Mr. Pitt); but that was no argument against reading this bill a second time, which he supported, conceiving, that if there were any material faults in it, they might be removed, and the whole bill ameliorated in the committee.

said, he could discover but one opinion in the house as to the necessity of increasing our force, and the only difference that existed in sentiment was, as to the manner in which that force should be raised. Although he considered the mode proposed by this bill as creating a disposable force as inferior to others that had been suggested, he was, notwithstanding, prepared to support it. It was formerly proposed to raise men for rank, a mode to which he saw no important objections, subject as it would be to the excellent regulations introduced by the commander in chief; and yet, no sooner was it mentioned, than a clamour was instantly raised against it, and he heard nothing from all quarters but the cry of "would you ruin the army?" When the proposal was made to raise men by ballot, the outcry was, if possible, much greater. When it is proposed to recruit in the regular army, then it is objected that the country is exhausted, and that there can be no hopes of drawing any considerable force from that source; so that there was not a possible mode of recruiting men, to which some extraordinary, and, as those who urged them conceived, insurmountable objections were not offered. All confessed that it was necessary to raise a great force; and yet every mode that was proposed for accomplishing it, was objected to. How long, he would ask, was the country to go on this way? A right hon. gent. opposite to him (Mr. Windham) had, in a former debate, suggested the propriety of enlisting men for a limited term, and that was immediately objected to by his right hon. friend near him (Mr. Yorke). What was demanded by the supporters of the present bill? Why, nothing more than to allow it to go into a committee, and to see whether it could not receive improvement there. There was no plan, no system that human ingenuity could devise, that might not be liable to objection; and yet the possibility of imperfection was but an ill argument against all effort of attaining to practicable utility. He thought his right hon. friend's mode the best of the two; but when there were two ways proposed of getting at; a thing, if circumstances put it out of his power to follow one he would take the other. He presumed that it was in the contemplation of govt. to apply the measure recommended by this bill to Ireland. If that were the case, he had no doubt of its complete success, for he was persuaded there was not a parish in that part of the united kingdom, which would not raise the men, rather than subject itself to the fine. He would vote for proceeding with the bill.

was of opinion, that the colonial and home demand for our military force could not be carried to a greater extent than it actually was. He wished that govt. had fallen upon some mode of lessening that demand. He thought that it would be advisable on many grounds, that our possessions in both the Indies should be garrisoned and defended by troops drawn from the East-Indies, by Sepoys, who were inured to the climate of those latitudes, who could support the inconveniencies of them without risk of the dangers that Europeans were subject to, and who could, from the population of the countries they were drawn from, be supplied to any number. He fully agreed in the praises that had been bestowed upon the militia; that might be truly denominated the constitutional force of the country; and he trusted it would always be increased in a commensurate degree with what was called the regular force.

said, he had so often experienced the indulgence of the house, that he would now beg leave to trespass on them for a very short time. The observations he had to make on the present bill, would go to the general principle of it, rather than to the detail of any of its parts. This, he conceived, was the manner in which the question now before the house ought to be debated. The question was immediately connected with the defence of the country, and the best means of giving it stability. Was it not fit, therefore, that it should be proceeded in? and would the house disgrace its character, by scouting and driving away a measure which had so important an object in view? The measure certainly did not go far enough; it did not go to establish that force which he conceived to be sufficient and necessary for our purpose. But it went to the attainment of a certain object; and if he considered it to be the last effort of the great mind of him who brought it forward, it would not now have his support. He considered it merely as a measure which was to give effect to a thing that the late ministers had abandoned, namely, the army of reserve, the operation of which they had been on the point of suspending. This went not only to give it effect, but to render it beneficial. He could not conceive this, however, to be the last effort of the present minister, for if it was, it must be unworthy of his great mind. It was merely to bring into operation a piece of imbecility that had been engendered by other men; a thing which was a nullity, and which subjected him who had introduced it to the imputation of a blockhead. He was confident the present plan would procure men for the regular army; he had himself tried the experiment of enlisting men from a limited service into a regiment of dragoons, and he succeeded in it. Then to allow the supernumerary men, who were to be reduced from the militia, to enter into the royal army, was a plan against which no reason could be advanced, and which was to be admitted. He would, therefore, support it with the utmost of his power. The right hon. gent. who brought it forward, should always have his good wishes and support. He could not, however, help deploring the exclusive administration that had been lately formed. He deplored the loss of so much talent as that which he saw arranged against the right hon. gent., and was grieved to think it was not more united with his. He particularly lamented that the administration had not the benefit of the talents of an hon. gent, who had just gone out of the house (Mr. Fox). Here there was a cry of order! upon which

got up, and said, he must appeal to the noble lord, whether the topics he was dwelling upon, belonged to the question before the house?

resumed. He said, he conceived it was a part of his argument in support of the question, to express the confidence he had in one of the ministers, and the regret he felt at that minister's not having the assistance of more talents, in the arduous situation he had accepted. This was certainly a public calamity. But, at the same time, he thought the right hon. gent. could go on, even with the assistance he had.

said, that after the declaration which he had made of his sentiments on the subject of this bill last week, he would not have troubled the house this night, if it had not been for the variety of topics thrown out in the present discussion. He did not know whether the house was influenced by the opinion of the hon. baronet opposite (Sir L. Parsons), so as to resolve to go into the committee, and pass the bill at all events. He wished the house to pause a little on this doctrine. The use of a second reading was to debate the principle of the measure, and the greater the importance of the measure, the more necessary was it not to let it pass this stage without some discussion. The hon. baronet seemed to be of a directly contrary opinion, and was for letting every measure, good or bad, go into a committee, and trying whether it might not be made to answer its purpose; and it was on this ground, he supposed the hon. baronet voted for sending this measure to a committee, though he preferred another on the ruin of which this was founded. His maxim seemed to be laudo manentem, to approve always of the measure before him. For his own part, he approved of the old practice rather than the novel doctrine of the hon. baronet; and therefore, though he had offered his sentiments before, he would repeat, shortly, his principal objections. He agreed in the object of the bill, but he was sure the bill did not tend to forward that object; and, therefore, he thought it right to put a stop to it as soon as possible. It appeared to him not only inadequate to its object, but adverse to and destructive of it. There were three ways in which the measure had been considered, and which, though not all of them separately of importance, it was at least important to keep distinct; 1st, what the measure was in itself, and how far it was likely to attain its object; 2d, what its merits were compared with measures which it was meant to supplant; and 3d, what the result was of a similar comparison with measures which might be proposed in the room of it. All these deserved consideration; and first as to a comparison of the measure with that which it succeeded.—Here he could not help noticing the conduct of several gentlemen, and particularly of his hon. friend (Sir J. Wrottesley), and of the learned gent, who spoke early in this debate, (Mr. Sturges Bourne), who triumphed because the ballot was got rid of, not recollecting that in this triumph they were passing a pretty severe censure on the hon. author of the present measure, who was among the first promoters of the system of ballot, and who certainly had not in this bill got rid of the principle of compulsion, the fine being, as it had been properly expressed, the screw, which was to screw up the parishes to the exertion required. It must not be forgotten either, though the hon. baronet and the learned gent. seemed to have forgot it, that till almost the present moment, ballot was to have been the foundation of the measure now produced. The hon. baronet seemed to make it quite a matter of reproach to us, that we did not appear to join, as quickly and as heartily as we ought, in condemning a measure, which, till within these few days, he and his friends were prepared to tell us was the only one fit to be resorted to. Now this measure was condemned; and by a curious kind of argument the condemnation of this was to be proof of the excellence of that which was to be substituted in its room. But this kind of argument was only good where the choice was limited to an alternative. If there were only two things to chuse out of, it was plain that to condemn one was to recommend the other; but that was not the case where there were other courses to be resorted to. He was asked for his plan: he repeated now what he had said on a former night, that his plan consisted in rejection merely, in getting rid of the evils of the former system. What had all the advocates of the bill, and particularly the learned gent. (Mr. Sturges Bourne) been able to say in favour of their own measure, but that it removed impediments? When he (Mr. W.) was asked how we were to go on in the simple way after the mere removal of impediments; he asked the hon. gent. how he meant to get on in his way? When he was asked where men were to be found by his plan, when the country was exhausted by war, he asked where the advocate of this bill expected to find men by theirs? Hon. gentlemen must recollect, that though this measure was compulsory in one way, inasmuch as it called, for exertions which, if not successful, would expose the parties to a fine, yet that neither this, nor even the army of reserve act, which was more directly compulsory, did necessarily compel the service of any individual. It was always open to the party to commute his service for money; that is to say, to engage another to serve in his stead, and this, it was notorious, was so generally done, that hardly any portion either of the militia or army of reserve consisted of men serving otherwise than as substitutes, that is, as men entering voluntarily for a bounty. When, therefore, officers of high authority in such matters, declared that the proportion of men that hung loose on society in this country, was not sufficient to supply the army by simple recruiting, the answer was, which no authority could over-rule, that near 200,000 men were serving in England in various descriptions of forces, engaged in no other way than by simple recruiting, that is, under the inducement of a bounty. The men were, therefore, to be had, on the bounty being given and the proper means of procuring them being adopted; and it was plain that government thought so, for the only difference from the ordinary system contained in the present bill was, that the distribution of the money was given to parish officers. It was evident, therefore, that men were to be got for money; the only question was, whether this money was to be given in the ordinary mode by Serjeants, corporals, and other military officers, or by parish officers, with fines imposed to quicken their exertions. This latter mode, he could not but consider, as bad, with a view even to its own purposes. Should it be determined after all, that a force such as that now proposed, namely, of troops for home service merely, ought to exist, he should think that it ought to be recruited in the same way as any other, though at a reduced bounty. But the question previously to be determined was, whether there ought to be such a force at all; and he was decidedly of opinion that there ought not. He wished to hear what were its advantages for the objections to it were certainly most powerful. First, it was adverse to the military feelings of the country. If the country was to be military, its army should be a body wholly and decidedly military. All military honours and advantages should center in this. The exhibition of a body having the semblance of soldiers and sharing the honours, titles, and decorations, without participating in the dangers, must ever be injurious. The honours, in particular, should never be separated from the dangers. He had been himself in office when a measure was adopted for giving military dress and rank to certain officers of the barrack department, and when a proposal was even made for extending the same to barrack-masters in general: but he had decidedly resisted that proposal, and was happy to think that both upon that point, as well as in his judgment upon the general question he was supported by the concurrence of military characters of high authority. The existence of a large defensive force was, he was sure, adverse to military feeling. Another thing he objected to was, this connexion of particular battalions of the home force with particular battalions of the other service. It might in some instances have the effect of inducing men to enter the first battalion for general service, but in other instances its effect would be directly contrary. If the second battalion was used for recruiting the first, a system of discipline must ensue from the sort of electioneering which would be practised to induce the men to go from limited to extended service, which would have the most injurious effect. He repeated his former argument, that this plan would not create a disposition for general military service. It might unsettle men from their domestic habits, it might give them an inclination for military service at home, so that when their first term would be expired, they would renew again for the same period; but it was not likely to produce the effect of inducing them to engage in another kind of service.—It seemed by this plan as if the second battalion was to be a kind of false stomach, from which the man was to be thrown up, and ruminated before he could be digested into a regular soldier. If some men were attracted by the connexion to enter into the first battalion, he was sure many would be discouraged; and if a general liberty was allowed to the men of entering any battalion they pleased, the general service would be more advanced. The right hon. gent. contended, that one of the effects of the system would either be to convert the parish officers into crimps, or to compel them, like other persons in trade, to get people to crimp for them. They would of necessity be made the instruments of oppression and persecution. The bill would operate as a sort of constructive vagrancy act. The first object of the parish crimp would be to collect all the vagrants together to furnish the quota, and though he might, like Falstaff, be ashamed of his company, they would equally be offered and must equally be accepted. It was a curious idea that this conversion of churchwardens into recruiters, was to form a new connexion highly advantageous to the interests of the army. He had heard of a union of church and state, but this was to be union of church and army. What fine subjects of discussion for a parish vestry! And what a noble way for exalting the character of the soldiery, and inflaming the military ardour of the country, to fill the army with all that could be collected from jails, bridewells, and penitentiary houses!—The bill, though not a quota-bill in all respects, inasmuch as it would not raise the bounties to the same inordinate amount, was completely a quota-bill as to the class of people, that it would get in the first instance; at the same time that it was far short of a quota-bill, if considered merely with respect to its efficacy. Even the efficacy of the quota-bill was not much to be boasted of. While it was perfectly efficacious as to filling the fleet with mutiny, it had neither completed its numbers, nor in most instances, out of a thousand men raised had it produced three hundred who ever rendered the country any useful service. One aspect of the bill would certainly be, that it would afford ample matter for law disputes. The learned gent. talked of the justice of the bill, but he would ask, what justice could be found in a bill, of which the effect was to impose fines for the failure of service which was not capable of being performed. This he was justified in contending to be the fact, for it expressly stated that if the parish was unable to find men, then the fines were to be imposed. Was this a principle of the law of England? or was it to be found in any new code of justice, which the learned gent. was about to instruct them in? The whole host of new recruits, if obtained, would counteract the object which his right hon. friend had in view; for they were to be enlisted for home service, and the object for this new mode of recruiting was professedly admitted to be general service: so far, therefore, as these were persons, who, if there were no home service, would have entered for general; as must be presumed to be the case with numbers; so far, instead of advancing, they counteracted the purpose of the bill. These were the objections which presented themselves to the adoption and ultimate success of the measure. He recommended his right hon. friend to place the power of recruiting in the hands in which it was originally lodged: to give a bounty proportionate to the service which you wished to promote: to secure to the regular army its due preference as well in this way, as by the still more important one, of providing liberally for those whom wounds and length of service compelled to retire; and generally, to put the condition of a soldier more upon a level with that of the class from which it was expected, or hoped, that he might come. Were these and other encouragements given, and all competition removed, there was nothing in the state of the country, which should forbid the hope of seeing an army raised adequate to the public service, now as in all former times. This was a course far better than the wild and visionary expedients which it had so long been the practice to have recourse to; which had rarely been pushed to a greater extent than in the present bill; and which as they were sanctioned by no experience nor founded on any rational theory, would lead to nothing but consequences the most injurious to the very objects which they professed to have in view.

rose to explain. He said, by the common law of this country, persons called night-walkers (not of the female kind) who had not done a day's work in a given time, and could not give a good account of themselves, might be committed, and such were vagrants; this he mentioned in consequence of what the right hon. gent. who spoke last had said on the probable abuse of the power of parish officers on this bill.

in a few words expressed his approbation of the bill.

said, he was surprised to hear the present bill stigmatized as an unconstitutional measure. It perfectly accorded with the habits of our ancestors at a very ancient period of our history, so far back, indeed, as the Saxon Heptarchy. It was the mode of raising men which Alfred the Great had recourse to. That great monarch committed the care of providing a supply for his army to persons, who, at that time, held situations in the country exactly similar to those of the overseers and churchwardens of parishes at present. It could not be conceived as at all likely to injure the military character to have the army recruited through the agency of such persons—certainly not so much so as by the employment of ordinary recruiting Serjeants. For the justification of this remark, he would only refer to the well known story of Serjeant Kite in the drama, and from that it would appear that soldiers raised by the ordinary mode of recruiting were not so very likely to be so respectable as some gentlemen seemed to think. As to the necessity, which called for the utmost exertion to provide for the defence of the country, he thought it could scarcely be doubted by any man who considered the character of the enemy with whom we had to contend, and the scale of his preparations. Since Napoleon had assumed the title of Emperor, the dangers from the hostility of France had been augmented.—The hon. member concluded with declaring the pleasure he felt to find, that the right hon. gent. who had just spoken at length upon the subject had founded his opposition, not upon the argument that it was unconstitutional, but upon the grounds of its propriety and policy.—The question was then loudly called for, and the gallery was about to be cleared, when,

rose. He began by stating, that his wish was to postpone the delivery of his sentiments upon the bill he had the honour to submit to the house, until he should have an opportunity of hearing all the objections that might be urged against it by all those gentlemen who were usually in the habit of speaking upon such topics, but yet he could not persuade himself to suffer some of the observations which had been made in the course of the debate to go unanswered; and, first, as to those remarks which were applied personally to himself. From those it seemed as if it was understood that he had forfeited some pledge that he had made before he had the honour to arrive at the situation which he now held; and that he had neglected to bring forward such measures as that house and the country had reason to expect. To this he should only say, that the very measure then before the house was that which, when out of office, he pressed on the consideration of the house; and he was much surprised to find that many gentlemen, who upon that occasion professed to think it a matter of such importance, that they supported a motion to postpone the deliberation on that bill for which this was introduced as a substitute, seemed now disposed to refuse it a full discussion. This disappointment he confessed he felt the more, because, since this apparent acquiescence in the policy and necessity of this plan, that part had been omitted upon which any material difference of opinion seemed to prevail, particularly in the mind of the hon. gent. on the opposite bench (Mr. Fox). That alteration was as to the ballot, which it was deemed advisable to leave out altogether. He did not, however, from this mean to say, that any imputation of inconsistency could attach to that hon. gent., even though he should refuse his concurrence upon this question, as the expression of his approbation in a former in stance was much qualified, and as many parts still remained in the bill of which that hon. gent. had disapproved; but, as those two evils, of which his right hon. friend on the lower bench (Mr. Windham) so often complained; namely, the ballot and high bounties, were to be removed by this bill, he could not help saying, that his unqualified opposition not a little astonished him. His reason for getting rid of the ballot, the right hon. gent. stated to be this, that, since he first mentioned this plan to the house, he had an opportunity of seeing the papers, which enabled him to ascertain the number of men whose personal service was obtained by ballot under the army of reserve bill, and this he found to be only 2,000 out of about 40,000 men. It, therefore, struck him as extremely desirable, to abolish that which produced so much individual pressure and such loud complaints, and to distribute the necessity of providing men in such a way that the burthen should fall upon those people in the parishes and the country at large, who were likely to be the most competent to bear it. For this purpose, and in order to make the evil of high bounties impossible, this bill provided, while it would serve to secure all the advantages of local exertion in aid of our regular recruiting. This was an alteration in the system pursued by the late govt., and one of the principal alterations which he had recommended. If, however, he should be told, that this plan was not adequate to the purpose in view, he would call upon the gentlemen who made the objection to propose something of their own, or to suggest what they would deem necessary to alter, amend or accomplish the object of this plan. To the complaint of its inefficiency he would say, that it was that which the house and those hon. gentlemen themselves, on a former occasion, considered preferable to the army of reserve act; and as to the other measures which he had promised to bring forward, with respect to the propriety of enlisting men for a limited period in the regular army, he had to state, that this subject was under the consideration of those persons who were most capable, from their professional knowledge, to form a correct opinion upon it. That opinion, as soon as he should collect it, he would take occasion to submit to the house.—As to other points connected with the force for our national defence, he begged it to be recollected, that he never said that the quantum of that force was not quite sufficient. He only expressed doubts as to the mode of its distribution, which was so erroneous that it had not yet been found possible to correct it. This formed the improvement which he before stated to be necessary in our military system, together with the amendments which he suggested in the volunteer bill, relative to the pay, cloathing, &c. many of which were adopted, and one of which, that of inviting the volunteers to go on permanent duty, was acted upon by those gallant corps themselves to such an extent, before the bill was adopted, that they were now in a state of discipline much different from that in which they were some time ago described by some hon. gentlemen.—There were other points to which he had felt it his duty to call the attention of the house, namely, a farther provision for our naval defence; and also an arrangement for the construction of fortifications in particular places. Those points, he had no doubt, that the present executive govt., under whose department they were, were actively engaged in providing for. He alluded to them, though he felt them to be extraneous from the present discussion, and trusted the house would excuse him when they recollected the frequent appeals made to him and his conduct upon the important subject of our national defence, in the course of the debate.—In coming to the bill before the house, he could not help observing, that, from the nature of the arguments used, and from the particular tenor of the language of his right hon. friend, he could find only a verbal adherence to opinions formerly delivered, but not followed by any practical consequences. He had heard of the necessity of vigorous measures to meet a great and impending danger; of the propriety of making the utmost efforts to recruit our regular army; a proposition that no one ever disputed. He had heard it strongly inculcated that every means should be used to keep alive the spirit of the country; that the people should be taught to feel that the amount of the sacrifices they must submit to, and of the exertions they would be called upon to make, were not to be calculated from any thing they had heard of in former periods, much less from any thing they had witnessed in times of peace; that their minds must be raised to a level with the new order of things in which the world was placed. All those animating exhortations he had often heard; and what was the object of them if they were not intended to lead to some practical effect? But, if he were to hear of a refined argument as to probable litigation in the parishes, in opposition to a measure called for by the most pressing emergency, he could not hesitate to pronounce it a most extraordinary proceeding. He confessed, that he never expected to hear the tone of his right hon. friend sunk so low, as to introduce petty parochial considerations into the discussions of a subject involving the fundamental interests of this country, and the best hopes of Europe. He hoped, however, that the sentiments of the right hon. gent. would not make an impression upon the house or the country hostile to that measure, as that hon. gent., it must be obvious, now pressed the objection where he before pressed the motive. The bill should have been argued by the right hon. gent. and others upon its own merits, and not be resisted by the use of captivating topics or bye words, not fairly applicable to it—such as, that it would go to convert the parish overseers into recruiting officers: but suppose it did, and that served to furnish an additional force for our national defence, the country would feel itself amply repaid for any inconveniencies which this regulation might create, in the public prosperity and individual comfort which that force would contribute to secure. When it was said, that this plan was novel and extraordinary, he would beg gentlemen to recollect that it was founded on that system which had stood the test of experience, which had existed 50 years in this country, and the principle of which had been recently extended, with the unanimous concurrence of the house, to a levy en masse. This, then, was the nature of the wild, fanciful notion, which he was charged with having originated in this instance. Really, those were imputations which he could not understand. With respect to the grounds upon which the bill was discussed, it seemed to him, that the simple question for the consideration of the house was this—whether the mode proposed for raising men for the army was preferable to the ordinary mode of recruiting? In order to judge of this question, there were three points to be enquired into: 1st. whether local exertion, aided by ordinary recruiting, was not more likely to furnish recruits than the latter mode alone? 2d whether men so raised for limited service were not more likely to enter into the regular army than those persons engaged in the several occupations of civil life? and, 3d. whether such men were likely to be worse soldiers than those taken immediately from the loom, &c.? Upon the first point, he felt it quite unnecessary to argue with his right hon. friend: to his ingenious speculations he had only to oppose experience—he had only to state, that, within little more than 12 months, no less than 100,000 men had been raised in this country, through the medium of local exertion; and where, he would ask, could a precedent be found for any thing like an equal number raised within an equal length of time by the ordinary recruiting? It was impossible. The success of this plan was naturally to be expected. That men should prefer, in the first instance, a service that was limited, with respect to time and place, to that which was unlimited in both, was what was to be looked for from human nature. The desire men had to defend their native soil, and to fight upon that soil for their own safety, rather than go to another country, probably to combat the climate as well as the enemy, combined with a reasonable deference for the wishes of relations, must contribute to determine their preference for a limited service. Upon the 2d point also, he had only to resort to experience. He was not under the necessity of opposing a theory against the theory of the right hon. gent., for he had only to call to the recollection of the house, that, previous to the close of the last war, above 30,000 militia volunteered for general service, and within the last year, out of between 30 and 40,000 men, raised for the army of reserve, above 14,000 had enlisted into the regular army. What, then, had not the country to hope, if, pursuant to the operation of this bill, it should have 3 force of 70,000 men ready at an emergency, from which a reinforcement of 12,000 men annually towards the regular army was naturally to be looked for? What would be our prospect under such a circumstance, at the commencement of any future war, or in case of the long continuance of the present? Why, that we should have ready at hand a perpetual, never-failing resource for the supply of our regular army, to an amount, which, from the experience he had alluded to, he thought he should not be too sanguine in calculating upon.—After having explained, as he conceived satisfactorily, these two points, he did not think it requisite to do more than to state the third, to ensure the assent of the house.—That, soldiers thus obtained from limited to unlimited service, were as likely to be not only not worse, but much more effective men than others recruited from among the people without any previous knowledge of military affairs. From this view of the subject, he was at a loss to know upon what ground a measure could be resisted, that had at once in view our present defence and our future strength. His right hon. friend would not, surely, propose in his situation, for the regular army entirely to overlook a defensive force. How far, he would be glad to know, did he mean to carry his principle? The object of this bill was to provide for both an offensive and defensive force, and by the most expeditious and effectual means. It proposed to give the assistance of the parish officers, and the interest which the parishes must feel, to promote the views of the ordinary recruiting officers, and to give to all men the King's bounty. The bounty would be the same to all; and money, therefore, was to form no motive in the choice of service which the recruit was to make. But gentlemen said, that many abuses would arise out of the execution of this bill, that the parish officers would act unjustly, and that the poor would be oppressed; but those gentlemen seemed to forget, that there were any magistrates in the country to prevent such oppression, and to punish any petty tyrants that might attempt to practice it. The fines to be inflicted for the deficiency of contribution in parishes, could not, he maintained, have a tendency to urge to such injustice as appeared to be apprehended, for that fine was not to be so considerable, certainly nothing equal, to that to which individuals were liable every quarter sessions under the army of reserve act. The allusions made to poachers and vagrants were not at all justified by any clause in the bill. Neither were they made subject to any compulsion by this measure, nor was it intended that hey should. The insinuations thrown out, that persons applying for relief to the parish officers would probably be rejected if they should refuse to enlist under this bill, might be classed among the chimerical apprehensions expressed upon this subject; for nothing could be so absurd as to suppose that the infirm and the fathers of families, who were those who generally applied for parish relief, were such as the parish officers would send to form their quota of military contribution; for the one would not be received, and the other must leave his family as a burthen to the parish. His right hon. friend had said, that the existence of a secondary force tended to injure the military character; but whether the different descriptions of military force, militia, army of reserve, volunteers, sea fencibles, &c. now to be formed throughout the nation, had contributed to the effect mentioned, or whether the military character was ever held in higher or more general estimation, he would leave it to any man who had the least opportunity of observation to answer. It was rather singular, that the same right hon. gent. who had talked so gloomingly and almost despondingly of our danger at one time, but who now professed to feel that danger not so menacing, should yet state that the very force to which we owe our security from that danger, are composed of men, as the right hon. gent. termed it, dissevered from danger, and not only as unfit to be soldiers, but that their even wearing the military dress, was a disgrace to the soldier's character. To whom then was the empire to trust for its safety? Discipline, the right hon. gent. observed, was the soul of an army, and the officers of the new battalions were to be of such a character, and to hold such a rotation with the officers of the regular battalions attached to each of them, that there was every probability of speedy communication of effective discipline to the new levies; and the right hon. gent. was sufficiently conversant with military subjects, to know of what description the men might be, provided the officers were of the character he had referred to. If the right hon. gent. did not wish the whole of our defence to rest upon the regular army, he would ask him, whether he would not deem an army for limited service, to the amount of 14,000 in the united kingdom, an important auxiliary to a regular army to the same amount? The former always furnishing the means of keeping up the latter to its full complement, and, combined with our volunteers, enabling govt. to apply the disposable force to any purpose abroad, that might appear to be expedient. This quantum of force, he thought the circumstances of the times rendered necessary, and not more than the scale of the enemy's preparations demanded for our safety.—The right hon. gent. controverted the idea that there was any scarcity of population in the country to supply the army. In proof of the contrary he mentioned, among other circumstances, that there were not less than 4 or 5,000 men obtained for the army of reserve since Feb. last, just during the time that so much assertion had been heard in that house as to the scarcity of men. He believed, also, that much of the apparent difficulty of procuring men proceeded from the high bounties, many persons disposed to enlist holding back, in the hope that in this recruiting auction a higher sum might be had. Another cause was the distribution of the quotas under the army of reserve act, without any reference to the number of volunteers in each parish, which was an error that, upon his suggestion, was but very lately corrected. The right hon. gent. concluded by stating, that he hoped he had said enough to shew the house, that this was a measure which deserved their further serious and attentive consideration; and he therefore trusted that the house would send it to the committee, where it would be liable to receive such further improvements as the wisdom of parliament might suggest; and where he trusted it would not be the view of members to hamper or impede the progress of the bill, but to view it as a measure contributing to an extensive plan for the completion of our national defence, and the increase of our means of disposable force, by a permanent, solid, and effectual augmentation of the regular army of the country.

.—I have frequently, Sir, been under the necessity of apologizing for troubling the house with my sentiments at considerable length, on various occasions; but at present, I find myself called upon by the rt. hon. gent. to apologise, because I have not delivered my opinion in detail upon the measure before us. I have but one reason, and that appears to me, at least perfectly satisfactory, and it is this, that even before the speech of my right hon. friend (Mr. Windham), I thought it unnecessary to add any thing to the arguments against the bill, and that on a fair balance, pro and con, there could be no doubt of the vast superiority of the objections, and then followed the speech of my rt. hon. friend, which seemed to me to leave no doubt whatever on the case. Before I answer the call of the rt. hon. gent. it may be proper to make a few preliminary observations upon those with which he prefaced his speech. He complained, that it was hard that those who formerly voted for his proposal, when made from a different place, and in a mode to us even more objectionable, should refuse to entertain it for discussion now. But, if any authority were wanting to justify those, who on due examination, disapprove the principle of a bill in stopping it before it reaches a committee, it would be that of a rt. hon. gent. on a late occasion, who said that he who thinks the title of a bill explains its principles, must be little acquainted with the proceedings of the house; and the arguments of the hon. baronet who votes for the measure, that it may be discussed in the committee, pays an indiscriminate compliment to every measure that may be brought forward. But the rt. hon. gent. says he did not flatter himself with the entire concurrence of myself, and some of those with whom I act, in all the provisions of the bill. Why, then, did we vote for it, but for two reasons, first, that a proposition of a nature so important, and from a person of such reputation, was at least fit to be discussed; and, secondly, because we disapproved that measure which it was proposed to suspend, namely, the army of reserve bill, and indeed wished that act to be repealed altogether. But after having supported his proposal on that occasion, I should have thought that the rt. hon. gent. was the last person who ought to catechise us for our motives. He accuses us likewise of never proposing any thing of our own for the defence of the country, while we object to his.—And here, Sir, let me correct the rt. hon. gent. I beg his pardon, but I think, if I do not dream, that, but a few weeks ago, I made a motion for going into a committee to consider of the defence of the country; a motion on which I had the happiness of his distinguished support, precisely on the grounds on which I brought it forward, though the leading members of administration, indeed, contended, that we ought to suggest specific plans. I thought that the best mode then, and so did the rt. hon. gent. and if he still remains of that opinion, I am ready to make the motion over again to-morrow, if he will honour it with his support. So much in justification of ourselves for having supported the rt. hon. gent. formerly—a support which I by no means regret. I confess, however, that we receive more harsh treatment than the rt. hon. gent. deals to others. Some of the hon. and rt. hon. gentlemen who now sit near him, then reproached us pretty severely for having voted for giving a hearing to his plan. Then his present noble and rt. hon. friends, who having heard must approve his proposals, would not so much as entertain it for discussion; and to us it is every thing that they are now in a situation to support what they formerly rejected. All I beg of them for their attacks upon me then, is that they would make a sort of amende honorable for their conduct; and, making me a bow, thank us for the opportunity we give them of again defending their original favourite plan, by throwing out this measure.—Here let me just take notice, too, of an argument of the hon. bart. (Sir L. Parsons), who avows, that though he approved much more of the bill brought forward by the late secretary of state, he must vote for the present. Suffer me, however, to comfort the hon. baronet on this occasion, by informing him that he is under no necessity of contenting himself with this worse bill, because the ether, instead of being lost, now stands for a second reading on Monday next; when, if he pleases, he may have an opportunity of following up his approbation. He has nothing to do, therefore, but to try the fate of the bill he patronised so much, and, if he fails, still he has a good thing left to console him. And here, Sir, permit me to say that there is something not remarkably creditable to the modesty of the two rt. hon. gentlemen, on the opposite side, in talking, the one of them of the late administration, and the other of the present one, as if they were two distinct administrations. Now really, when it is considered that six ministers of the last cabinet, being a majority, retain their situations in the present one, it does not seem that the hon. gentlemen are quite so complimentary to their colleagues unless they think themselves the only efficient cabinet ministers. I therefore wish to ask, a little consideration for those six ministers. It is very hard upon them to be so treated as if they form no part of either, when, in fact, they constitute the majority of both, and are likely, I believe, to belong to every administration that might be formed—so far are they from being in that forlorn state that some people might suppose!—The rt. hon. gent. complains, that more should have been expected from him than the present measure promises to effect. I do not join in that censure of him. It cannot be forgotten, however, that the rt. hon. gent. on many occasions, expressed himself strongly respecting the imminence of the danger with which the country was threatened. It is true there were other measures besides the present, there was the navy, the ordnance, &c. in which much was to be done; and no doubt the advice of the rt. hon. gent. may be of infinite benefit, though the ordnance at least remains precisely in the same hands as when the rt. hon. gent. thought that there was room for much greater exertion than had been displayed.—As to the measure itself, the rt. hon. gent. says, that a general military recruiting would be more slow in its operation. But if an immediate effect be that chiefly aimed at, is there any thing to be done towards a more general arming of the maritime counties? For so far, at least, he agreed that the general arming we recommended specifically should be adopted. I hope, however, that both with respect to that and the improvement of the volunteers, the right hon. gent. still adheres to his former opinions. If he does, he must see that for any thing immediate these are more urgent than the present bill. Indeed it seems rather preposterous to proceed to the adoption of a permanent system of re- cruiting, while such important parts of our defence still remains unfinished; and I agree, that if there ever was any danger of invasion, nothing has yet occurred that can lead us to believe that it is now over.—The present measure, however, giving up the ballot, is said to be less objectionable to us. True, but if the circumstances of the country were so urgent, it is possible that strong measures may have been necessary, and even severity, for immediate result may have been preferable to a slow and inefficient lenity. But the rt. hon. gent. says he has lately found that a very small proportion indeed of the militia and army of reserve served in person. And did the rt. hon. gent. find it necessary to have the information and researches of office to discover what was notorious to every man in England? or, if he made the inquity to gratify his curiosity in going into office, it was a curiosity which no man in England had but himself. Strange, indeed, must have been the construction of a measure that was formed, on principles that were deranged by the discovery of so notorious a fact. Then, what does the bill profess to do as to immediate effect? It is to fill up the militia, the deficiency of the army of reserve, and the 12,000 of them that have enlisted for general service. Then how is this to be done? The right hon. gent. complains that the parish officers who are to execute the act are nick-named recruiting officers. But with all his felicity and choice of language, can the right hon. gent. find a better phrase? It has justly been contended by my right hon. friend (Mr. Windham), that the parish officers either will succeed in their exertions to raise men, or they will resort to threats and to oppression. It is, undoubtedly, true, that the magistrates of this country deserve every praise for their pure administration of the laws, but still it is not good to give them an interest in stretching the law. It is said, that much advantage will be derived from local exertions and influence. But may not such influence be abused? If to save the parish money, or for the vanity of raising the quota, it is quite credible that the influence over the lower orders may be abused. The parish officers will not send the halt and the blind, as the right hon. gent. asks, but they may send unfit persons, or they may influence a poor man with a large family to send his son; and by some such screw or other must the effect be produced. It is true, also, that there is no claim as to vagrants and poachers, but it is easy to conceive that persons under the suspicion of such charges may be influenced to volunteer in such a way as to talk of free will is a downright mockery. In short, the local influence which is to work such wonders, may be translated into pounds, shillings, and pence, if not into tyranny and oppression. Bounties will be resorted to if the men are to be found. To save the parish the fine in case of default, persons may be induced to contribute a guinea or two in addition to the govt. bounty, and thus, though this does not appear in the parish books, the bounty is in fact increased, and thus the competition of the regular recruiting is overpowered, notwithstanding any regulation to the contrary. And what is the character of the parish officers? We have seen the latter displayed upon the stage, perhaps a little in caricature, but still we know that they will cajole the recruits; they will not be harsh in taxing recruits for peccadilloes, for getting drunk, or perhaps other vices. But is the parish officer, turned recruiting officer, to encourage their proceedings, which, as a parish officer, he is bound to correct; and how may he not employ the influence of such authority to procure men? Besides, is it not absurd, that govt. should first say to the parish, find you the man—we find the money; but next, if you don't find the man, find us the money. Can any thing be worse contrived, or more incongruous than such a system? In fact, one of two things will happen. Either the parish officers will employ an undue influence and authority, or they will make local subscriptions to increase the bounty, and apply to a crimp, as they do now, raise the men, cost what it will, and thus, once more, by high bounties utterly destroy the recruiting for the army. I am almost ashamed of dwelling so much upon this point; but it is in fact the whole of the bill. The measure likewise attempts to blend two things utterly irreconcilable—an extraordinary provision for a sudden emergency, and a permanent military system. There are two things to be aimed at, a sufficient force for home defence and a general disposable force, and much depends on the order of the two. It seems to be admitted by all, that if there be a sufficient force for home defence, the general army is not so strong as is desirable. With respect to the plans of making the home army the nursery for the foreign army, I would ask, is it just to do so? The right hon. gent at least says, that he takes the men into the home service, first, because they would not with their eyes open enter for general service. Then it is a fraud upon them. He says, too, that in the one case their parents would forbid, and in the other encourage them to enter. But what a fraud is this, too, on the parents! Might not the parents justly say, "you inveigled our son from us, on pretence that he engaged for home service only. You even induced us to employ our influence to send him into the home service. Yet in a few months you remove him from our sight, and by new artifices you prevail upon him to do that which, in the first instance, he would have shrunk from, and from which we would have used all our paternal authority to prevent." Surely, this is not a fair and honourable way of dealing with the country. But it is said, that the mode proposed will be more expeditious, and the recruit be sooner had. But no sooner than if he had at first gone into the regulars, which in many cases, if he had not been intercepted, he might have done. But in truth, remove the competition which has existed, and which you are again about to revive, and the general recruiting will go on well. At least give it a chance. If it does not, then a certain degree of force, if circumstances require it, must be employed. As the first object now is to have men for foreign service, take all you can for that, and afterwards you may drag the pond again for those of an inferior kind, which may be good enough, perhaps, for other service.—The plan, too, of making one battalion the nursery for another, seems liable to the strongest objections. It is one of the great excellencies of a free govt. like this, that by means of elections, and other popular parts of the constitution, the rich are obliged to pay a certain court to the poor, which, on the one hand, increases the independence of the poor, while it mitigates and corrects the arrogance and pride which wealth and superiority might tend to engender. But this, which is excellent in the civil, would be most pernicious in the military state. There the officers should have no favours to ask of the soldiers; they should be in the situation of conferring favours; but, to gain the good will of the men, and carry them to another corps with them, must totally change the relative character of officers and soldiers, and operate to the destruction of discipline. It is said, however, that under regular officers the home army would be kept in a state of perfect discipline. No doubt under such officers they might be made excellent troops. But where are such officers now to be had?—In the next place, can we totally overlook the constitutional objections to such a system? Can we forget that such a home force, as a permanent system, is inconsistent with all those guards which were thought necessary in the militia; and such a force, officered like regular troops, the officers might in the end have no other connexion with the country but their holding commissions from the crown? Such are the objections if the system is to be permanent. If it were to be temporary only, all the fine spun theory of first and second battalions would be blown to pieces in a moment. What, then, after so much expectations, after the removal of an administration, in a great degree on the charge of want of vigour and efficiency in preparing for the public defence, will the country be satisfied with such a measure as this? The right hon. gent. taunts my right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) with saying, what, would you do nothing? But what my right hon. friend proposes would do a great deal, indeed; for he would take away all the impediments to the general recruiting of the army, and give the army a fair chance. As to immediate effect, and for home defence, the best expedient, in my opinion, is to trust to the zeal and spirit of the country. So far, at least, the right hon. gent. agrees with me in thinking a general recruiting adviseable, at least in the maritime counties, and, whenever he brings such a measure forward, he may depend upon my support. To me, the principal classes of our means of defence, consist in the regular army, then the militia, and the volunteers and general arming; but each of them in its place and order, so as not to interfere with that which is different and more important. As to the offers of the militia last war, it must be remembered that it was not till they had been in Holland, in Ireland, and in Minorca, particularly when they were under an officer (Gen. Fox), of whom it would not become me to speak too praisingly, but who is allowed to excel in the forming of troops. Then, indeed, the drafts from the militia became most excellent as well as brave soldiers, and performed exploits which redounded to their own immortal honour and that of the country.—To conclude, Sir, I cannot but deprecate the adoption of a measure so little calculated to promote its ends, and to which there are so many powerful constitutional objections. I have omitted many which might have been urged, but the measure is of such a nature, and so palpably defective in every way, that I should not have taken up so much of your time in commenting upon it, had it not come from a person of the right hon. gent.'s consideration, and if, by some unaccountable fatality, it had not appeared to have occupied a degree of attention which in itself it so little deserves.

The house then divided, when there appeared,

The bill was accordingly read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday.—Adjourned at 3 o'clock on Saturday morning.