moved the order of the day for reading the charge against John Dayman, under sheriff of Cornwall, and for calling him to the bar of the house; and this being done accordingly; John Dayman, standing at the bar, was asked by the speaker what he had to say to the charge he had heard read against him? He assured the house, that he had not acted from any corrupt motives, and that it was the farthest from his intention, to do an act to violate the privileges of parliament; that he could not have acted from partiality, because he was not personally known to either of the candidates at the late election for Liskeard. He begged the indulgence of the house, and assured them, that if he had acted wrong, he had done so unintentionally. He then withdrew from the bar.

said, it was not his wish to say any thing in aggravation of the charge against Mr. Dayman, but he conceived it to be his duty to bring before the house the opinion of the committee that had tried the merits of the Liskeard election, so far as it related to the conduct of that person. He must acknowledge, that no evidence had come before the committee, of any direct corruption; but it had appeared, he had received some money from each of the candidates; he acknowledged himself, that he had been handsomely paid for his trouble. It was, however, contrary to law, for an under-sheriff to accept of any reward whatsoever, for his trouble at an election; and so far Mr. Dayman acted improperly. It was necessary that some punishment should be inflicted on him for what he had done: otherwise the same, conduct might be practised by others. This was not an uninformed man; he had been bred to the law, he could not have acted from ignorance; and it was incumbent on him to do the office he filled, in a fair and proper manner. He then moved, that the house should adopt the resolution agreed to by the committee; "that Mr. John Dayman, the under sheriff of the county of Cornwall, in annexing to the writ the indenture complained of in the petition of W. Huskisson, Esq. respecting the last return of a member to serve in parliament for the borough of Liskeard, acted contrary to his duty, and in violation of the privileges of the house." The right hon. gent. said, he should afterwards move, "that he be taken into custody by the Serjeant at arms."

hoped the house would consider the great expense this young man had already been put to, and not inflict a heavy punishment on him. He said, he had a letter from the high sheriff of Cornwall, giving a very good character of Mr. Dayman, who would not, on any account, act from improper motives, and, if he had been guilty of any misconduct, it must certainly have been unintentional on his part. Besides, the house should bear in mind, that he had no knowledge of, or connexion with any of the parties at the election.

said, that the under sheriff having received a small sum of money, by way of fee for his trouble at the election, was not a proof that he had acted from corrupt motives. From the enquiries he had himself made into this gent.'s character, and the information he had received, he believed he acted solely from error. He begged the house to consider the injury he must suffer even in his profession, if it inflicted a heavy punishment on him.

, being a member of the committee appointed to examine into this subject, hoped he should be indulged if he differed in opinion from the right hon gent. (Mr Rose.) It did not appear on evidence that the under sheriff had acted from partiality, or from any motive of corruption. It must be attributed to negligence rather than any other cause. He was of opinion, that the house would do enough to shew that they would not allow their privileges to be trifled with, by reprimanding the gent. at the bar.

again contended, that as this man could not have acted from ignorance (although even that would be inexcusable), he must have had some motive in his mind for what he did.

denied that the under sheriff had the plain line of his duty laid down before him; he was not bound, as a matter of course, to receive any return which the returning officer might make. It was a part of his duty to see that the return was not an improper one. In fact, it had been stated to Mr. Dayman, that the mayor of Liskeard had made a false return; and that was the reason he sent up the two returns to the clerk of the crown. And the committee, which afterwards tried the election, decided differently from the mayor; they having given it as their opinion, that the right of election resided with the mayor and burgesses generally; and the mayor having declared the right of election to be in the mayor, and the capital and free burgesses. It was therefore a case, in which a man might be misled, and must certainly have been an error in judgment. He was sure the censure of the house was as heavy a punishment as ought to be inflicted on this young man.

thought it a mere joke to say that this man's understanding could be misled.

said, it appeared that Mr. Dayman had received a fee from both parties; and that would not have happened, if he had not made a double return.—The first motion was then put and agreed to; and on its being moved, "that Mr. Dayman be taken, into the custody of the Serjeant at arms," Sir W. Lemon moved, as an amendment, "that he be reprimanded and discharged." This amendment was supported by Mr. Sheridan.—Mr. Pitt, and the Secretary at War contended, that after the resolution the house had just agreed to, and which was to remain on their journals, they could not, consistently with their duty, adopt any proceeding less severe than that of ordering this person into custody. If the house acted otherwise, it would be a surrender of their dignity.—The motion for taking him into custody was then agreed to, Sir W. Lemon having previously withdrawn his amendment.

said, he rose to move for certain papers relating to slaves imported into the West-Indies. For these there was a duty paid of 4½ per cent. His motion would be for the production of this duty; and the object of it certainly was, to postpone until next session of parliament, a bill then before the house, for the abolition of the African slave trade. He should make it appear from those papers, that his Majesty had a personal duty on all negroes imported into the West-Indies; and, if so, these duties ought not to be infringed upon. Before any other proceeding could be adopted in the bill before the house, it was necessary that his Majesty's consent should be first obtained; and when its object was to destroy a great portion of our commerce, it ought to have been introduced in a different shape from what it had. He did not think the house justified in introducing the measure without its having been first recommended in a speech from the throne.—Here the hon. member was called to order by

, who observed, that the motion with which the hon. gent. meant to conclude with, was simply for the production of certain papers: he could not, consistent with order, preface it by a long speech on the merits of a bill, which he would have another opportunity of discussing. He did not see why the time of the house should be taken up with such observations, particularly if no opposition was intended to be made to his motion. For his own part, he did not mean to oppose the motion.

begged the hon. gent. to consider, that he was not yet supposed to be aware of the nature of the motion, and could not know what alterations the hon. gent. may have found necessary, or how far it might be connected with the general question of the slave trade.

begged leave to remind the hon. member how far he was in order, and how far not. Any reasons shewing the propriety of his motion were certainly in order; but to comment upon or discuss the question was out of order, and a transgression of the rules of the house. He requested, therefore, the hon. gent. to state the words of his motion.

moved, "that there be laid before the house an account of the duties paid on negroes imported into the West-India islands, from the coast of Africa, for three years preceding the 1st of Jan. last, together with an account of the appropriation of the said duties." The motion was agreed to.

called the attention of the house to the inconveniencies that had taken place, in many instances, from calling out the volunteers on actual service, to the prejudice of their families. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, might have it in his power to apply some remedy. If he did not, however, he would take an early day for submitting to the house, a motion on the subject.

expressed a wish that the hon. gent. would have the goodness to communicate to him what he might think proper to be done, as he would co-operate in any measure to remedy the inconvenience alluded to.

rose and said, that he felt himself bound, in the discharge of an imperious and solemn duty, to oppose the motion of the right hon. gent. After what had passed in a late discussion on the subject of the bill now before the house, he should deem himself as failing in his duty, if he did not press shortly on the house, the opinions he entertained respecting it. This duty, as a member of parliament, he was called on to perform, and he could not but look upon it as actually the duty of every gent. who thought as he did of the measure under discussion, to oppose the motion for the Speaker's leaving the chair. Plans of various natures had been offered to the house for placing the country in a respectable state of defence. Those plans had been discussed and rejected, when a right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt), not then a member of his Majesty's govt., proposed a plan which appeared a fit object of discussion. He confessed, that he had voted for the consideration of that plan in common with those who concurred with him on the occasion, from a natural confidence in the great talents of the right hon. gent. He had, therefore, expected, now that he was minister, that the right hon. gent. would have brought forward some measure calculated to give satisfaction to all sides of the house, but he was much surprised to find his actual plan different from that which he had given reason to expect, and possessing no novelty but that which was universally reprobated, the introduction of a mode of attempting to recruit the army by parish officers. Whatever other features the measure might have, he called on the gentlemen on the opposite side, or on any side of the house, to say, whether there was any other character of novelty in it? He appealed to gentlemen conversant with the manner in which country business was managed, acquainted with the administration of justice in the country, whether, considering the many duties with which parish officers were already burthened, they could be competent to this duty in addition, and whether the measure in that respect did not appear to them impracticable. He was satisfied, that any gent. acquainted with the nature of the duties of parish officers, must see, that it would be impossible for them to accomplish this in addition. But he did not consider the measure as merely impracticable; he looked upon it as oppressive. In case the numbers should not be provided, certain penalties attached, first on the parishes, and ultimately on the counties, which penalties were to be levied by rates on the individuals; and he looked upon it as an injustice to the individual to be so taxed without any possibility of evading the penalty. A paper had been put into his hands on coming into the house, which stated a grievance that appeared to him severe. The paper was anonymous, but gentlemen might judge of the case, when they should hear it read, which he should do as part of his speech. The paper staled, "that the individual had been drawn for the supplementary militia about 12 months since, at which time he had paid 30 guineas for a substitute, which he had been given to understand would exempt him from the militia and army of reserve for 5 years, clear of all expense, But he saw that the bill now before parliament would, nevertheless, subject him to the supply of the supplementary militia, and of the army of reserve, which would be an act of injustice to him, as well as to many thousands besides; that such persons also as had entered into volunteer corps to avoid the ballot, would now withdraw from them, and that the honourable and patriotic volunteers who had determined to sacrifice their lives and properties in the cause of their country, would be by this law subjected to the rates in common with those who should quit their corps." The hon. member did not feel it necessary to detain the house longer, to urge the impolicy, impracticability, and injustice of the measure more strongly than it had been stated in the paper which he had just read.

said, that when he looked at the principles of the bill, he considered it as one of the most alarming that had ever been introduced to the house since the detestable time of James the Second. He had little more to do than to call upon the house, if it regarded its liberties, and the constitution of the country, as founded by their ancestors, to go with him in acting upon the same principles as their ancestors did, on a similar occasion. Immediately after the suppression of the rebellion, in 1685, his Majesty, King James, opened the parliament, and stated to them, in his speech from the throne, a plan nearly allied in point of principle to that in the present bill, viz. that, although the militia, of the country and the standing army had performed their duty, although they had suppressed the rebellion from one end of the country to the other, the militia was not sufficient, and that nothing but a large body of troops kept in constant pay could defend him and the country from the attacks of their enemies, both at home and abroad. His Majesty then proceeded to desire the house to double the amount of the regular standing army, in lieu of the ancient and constitutional force of the militia, and begged the house would not make any objection on account of a deficiency of officers, because he had already provided them. Such were the words of King James's speech. It would be proper for the house to look at this time to the conduct pursued by their fore fathers on that memorable occasion. They granted a supply proportioned only to the existing force of the country, avowedly disclaiming the justice of his Majesty's proposition. They addressed him to discontinue the service of those officers who were disqualified by the test act, and then they advised a committee, to disband the forces, and bring in a bill to render the militia more complete for the purposes expected from it. They farther shewed their constitutional jealousy, by directing the proper officers of govt. to bring in that bill. He saw no alteration in the present times that could possibly warrant a permanent additional force like the one now called for. It was totally inapplicable to the present moment, and at all times, it would prove subversive of the constitution itself. If we had a due sense of our free constitution, which had been thus transmitted to us, we ought to repudiate, in a like manner, the measures now suggested. If the militia was not competent for its duty, in the name of God, bring in a bill in order to make it so. He knew that it had done its duty, according to the expectations of the state. If one bill would not do, let ten bills be brought in for that commendable purpose. It was the militia that precluded the necessity for such an immense standing force. The bill under discussion did not even qualify the matter so far as to say that such a force was intended for foreign service, but expressly mentions that it was for the defence of the realm. Had it been of a temporary nature, and destined for foreign service alone, he had little doubt but the house might with propriety agree to it, but as it stood, there was no security that the force would be discontinued when the service was at an end. On these principles, therefore, he should object to the Speaker's leaving the chair. If any credit were to be given to the statements of ministers, made perhaps for their defence as well as for the satisfaction of the house, the situation of the country was not such as to call for such an augmentation; 822,000 men, including the seamen and marines, had already been provided for the defence of the country, and, with such a force, there could be no call for any additional ballot, nor for a great permanent force. All that was wanted was to organise the force already provided for service. There was an army in the North doing nothing, but ready, and he was sure competent to its duty; there was another army in the South, equally prepared for action, but having no employment, and helping the former to do nothing; there were also armies in the East and West, in similar circumstances. He was confident they were all equally and perfectly competent to defeat any attempt of the enemy, who, if they should venture from their own shores, would never have another story to tell. The force of the country, he observed, was divided with reference to two objects; first, to the home defence, and next to continental war. The first object was completely secured by the constitutional force of the country; and when he looked to the state of the continent, he could not discover any prospect of assistance or co-operative forces in any part of it. On the ground, therefore, that we had a greater force in the country than we wanted, and that the bill under discussion would be subversive of the constitution, he should oppose the motion.

could not discover any similarity between the circumstances of the present times and the circumstances of the year 1685. The hon. gent. who had just sat down, had talked much of that unconstitutional reign and those detestable times; and in jumping over a century had attacked the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by making a comparison between him and James II. However such speeches might answer party views in the house, he should be glad if any hon. member would state what effect they would be likely to produce out of doors. The hon. gent. had talked of standing armies as likely to overthrow the constitution; but whatever might have been the case in other times, a large standing army was now the only means of security for the constitution against the attempts of an upstart usurper. The hon. gent. had laid much stress on the establishment of a permanent army, but did he forget that we had the annual mutiny bill, which afforded us the means of putting a stop to such a force at once? He was sorry to take up the attention of the house, but after the discussion that had taken place on Friday, after a majority of the house had decided that the bill should, be read a second time, and should go into a committee, he could not but consider any opposition to the Speaker's leaving the chair as proceeding from factious and vexatious motives, as a violent attempt on the part of the gentlemen on the other side of the house, to embarrass his Majesty's ministers. (A loud cry of order! order!)

called the hon. gent. to order. The reason on which he did so the noble lord stated to be, that no member was justified in attaching improper motives to any gent. for the sentiments which he might urge in debate.

declared it to be undoubtedly out of order to impute personal motives to any gent. but at the same time he allowed it to be perfectly in order to state what effect might possibly be produced by such motives in the course of discussion.

was proceeding in the same train of observation when he was again called to order by

, who insisted, that it was one of the wisest principles of our ancestors in regulating the proceedings of that house, that the discussion might be renewed in each of the different stages through which every legislative measure was necessarily to pass before it could be enacted into a law, when

rose to order, and contended, that the observations of the hon. bart. did not apply to the point of order.

insisted, that he had been perfectly in order; that it was the right of every member of that house to express his sentiments on any legislative measure in every stage of its progress; and that to impute to him factious or vexatious motives, was not only to throw impediments in the way of freedom of debate, but to take away the deliberative privileges of the house.

then observed, that the hon. member (Mr. M'Naghten) must have perceived what was to be considered the strict line of order, and would regulate his conduct accordingly.

then confined himself merely to giving his support to the motion.

then rose, and said, that the reluctance which he always felt at obtruding himself upon the house was greater than usual upon the present occasion, because, having failed in his endeavours to catch the Speaker's eye at an early period of the debate which took place on the second reading, he now felt that he must either omit a great part of what he had intended to urge in opposition to the measure, or tire the house with a repetition of what had already been much more forcibly stated by other members. But notwithstanding this disadvantage he felt that, considering the part which he had taken upon former occasions and the opinions he had so frequently expressed upon this subject, he owed it to himself to request that the house would indulge him with this opportunity of shortly explaining the principal reasons which induced him, who had so repeatedly urged the necessity of increasing our regular army, to oppose a measure, the professed aim and design of which was to effect that which he so anxiously desired. He said that, whether he considered our present situation with a view to the defence of the empire against what he must still persist in describing as the most formidable attack that ever was prepared against this or any other country,—or, extending his views beyond the limited horizon of security at home, he endeavoured to discern some prospect of bringing the war to a glorious and successful conclusion, by reducing the power of France and thereby obtaining the only chance of a safe, solid, and permanent peace,—in whichever light he considered the subject, he was equally convinced that, whether for present defence or future offensive purposes, it was incumbent upon us to use our utmost endeavours to augment our regular army. But although no man could be more desirous of promoting the accomplishment of this important object, yet he felt that to oppose the present bill was perfectly consistent with that desire; because he was convinced that, whilst it would be productive of much mischief, much vexation and injustice to the country, it would be found to be perfectly inadequate to the purposes for which it was intended; and that it would not add one man to the army, who might not be obtained without having recourse to this vexatious mode of proceeding: or if it did raise any men that would not otherwise be procured, they would be either of so vile a description, or procured by means so detestable, that being as he was a warm advocate both for increasing the strength and also for maintaining the credit and reputation of the army, he should wish to spare it the disgrace of being so recruited.—It was not his intention, he said, to comment at any length upon the circumstances which had preceded the introduction of the present bill. He was far from feeling any surprise when he lately found that the right hon. gent. who is the author of it, had abandoned his intention of rendering ballots permanent. What surprised him was, not that he should have given up this design, but that he should ever have entertained it. From what he recollected the right hon. gent. to have said in the course of a debate which took place some months ago on the subject of the volunteers' exemptions, it did appear that he was even then aware that scarcely any of the balloted men served in person; and he therefore had been considerably, surprized when he afterwards heard him propose to render permanent that very system of balloting, the inefficacy of which he had thus acknowledged. He thought, however, that the right hon. gent. deserved great credit for the readiness with which he had allowed himself to be induced, by the further information that he had obtained since he came into office, to abandon the principal feature of a plan, which only two or three weeks before he had actually communicated in detail to this house as the result of long and mature reflexion upon the subject. But in giving him due credit for this change, justice required that he should remind him of the obligations he was under to his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) for having been the means of sparing him the mortification that he would have experienced if he had persisted in his original plan of permanent ballots; a plan, which, even if brought forward by the right hon. gent. as minister, would, he doubted not, have been reprobated and rejected by all sides of the house. It was but just, he said, that the right hon. gent. and the house should recollect, that the information which had induced him to make so complete a change in his measure, was a return, moved for by his right hon. friend, of all men raised under the reserve act, distinguishing the substitutes from the balloted men who served in person. But without further inquiring who was entitled to the praise of having been most instrumental to putting an end to the ballot, he heartily rejoiced that it had been put an end to. When he said this, he was far from meaning to blame those who had introduced it; for, whatever objections he might have entertained against the organization of the army of reserve, he certainly had thought that the late ministers were entitled to praise for having had recourse to the ballot, as a temporary experiment, under the pressure of a great emergency. Experience however had proved it to be much less efficient and more mischievous than he had foreseen that it would be, and he rejoiced that it was now abandoned.—The present plan was certainly less vexatious and less oppressive than the ballots; it was however to a great degree vexatious and oppressive, and it was not to be justified upon the plea of state necessity, because he was convinced that it would do the state no service. He really believed that if government would adopt what had been so repeatedly suggested by his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) on the subject of recruiting the army, — if they would put an end to all competition from other descriptions of force; if they would remove the strong objections that men now feel to the regular army, arising chiefly from the circumstances of their being bound for life, and liable to West-India service; if they would increase the inducements to the people to devote themselves to the military profession, by making an ample and liberal provision for every man who should have served his country faithfully for a certain number of years, so that the situation of a retired soldier might be regarded as an enviable condition;—if the government would adopt all these recommendations of his right hon. friend, he really believed that, notwithstanding the new and extraordinary situation in which we find ourselves in consequence of the events of the last ten years, we should have no occasion to have recourse to compulsory means for the recruiting of our army. But this he was sure of, that if compulsion was or ever should become necessary, it must, in order to do any good, be of a very different nature from what was now proposed. He could conceive no effectual compulsion short either of an absolute military conscription, such as is established in Prussia, in Austria, or in France; or a system of ballots, with a fine in default of personal service so high as to be beyond the ability of the lower orders to pay, and accompanied by the most severe and effectual laws for the prevention of all associations or subscriptions for insurance against ballot. He sincerely hoped that we should never in this country be reduced to the necessity of having recourse to either of these methods; but he was sure that any system of compulsion short of these, must be wholly ineffectual, With respect to the present plan, it was neither one thing nor the other: it greatly increased, instead of abolishing, the competition; it held out no additional inducement, and as to compulsion, there was just enough of it to be vexatious and unjust towards the parishes, but not enough to procure men. When he said, that even under the present circumstances of Europe, he did not believe it was necessary for us to have recourse to compulsion for keeping up our regular and embodied force, he did not, however, mean to say, that it was safe for us to trust entirely for the defence of the country either to an army recruited by the means which he proposed, or to the mere voluntary exertions and zeal of the people to co-operate with. The immense increase of the power of France; the military conscription established in that country, by which its government is enabled to augment its army to any possible extent; and the dispirited and disjointed state of the continent, which does at present, and may continue hereafter to leave them at liberty to employ the greater part of their force against us, had certainly rendered it necessary that we should adopt some more sure, permanent, and effectual means of providing for our defence than any that have hitherto been resorted to. Under these circumstances he was convinced that it had become expedient to vest in the crown, the power of compelling all men of a certain age to learn the use of arms, and of arraying and calling out this great national force, in case of actual invasion, in any way that might be most efficient for the purpose of repelling it. He was certainly an advocate for vesting this power in the crown, provided it be so regulated and defined by parliament as to prevent its abuse; to prevent, for instance, the training being enforced beyond what is absolutely necessary, to prevent its interfering with the ordinary occupations of the people, to prevent any men being called above four or five miles at most from their home, except in case Of actual invasion, and, finally, to prevent the gradations of society being confounded, or any person being placed in a situation inconsistent with the rank which he holds in civil life, by an arbitrary or capricious exercise of the power of calling upon him to act in defence of the country. To such a power, to defined and regulated by parliament, he not only had no objection, but on the contrary, he believed it to be absolutely necessary to placing us in a state of permanent security. With respect, therefore, to the training and arraying that species of force, which is to be called out only in case of actual invasion, he was in favour of a system of absolute compulsion; but for supplying the permanently embodied army, he would attempt no species of compulsion whatever, until we had tried the system of increasing the encouragement and of removing the objections to the service, and of destroying all competition against it, by making it impossible for men to enjoy any of the honours, distinctions, advantages, or gratifications of a soldier's life, without entering into the regular army.—It might, however, be said, that the present is not a system of compulsion. Why certainly, if the act should invariably be carried into execution, without any of those abuses which many gentlemen so justly apprehend, it was true, that no individual would be compelled to enter the service against his will. But it undoubtedly was a system of compulsion and of injustice, with respect to the parishes, who are to be fined, not only if they are unwilling, but also, if they we unable to find men; and, he thought it worthy of remark, that the description of parishes that will lie most exposed to the penalties of the act, are precisely those which are most deserving of praise and reward. The habits of idleness and temporary distress being amongst the most prevalent causes that induced men to enlist, it was certain, that those districts, where the great landed proprietors, and other opulent persons, displayed the greatest share of active benevolence, in promoting the industry, increasing the comforts, and relieving the wants of the inhabitants; would, in general, be the districts where it would be most difficult to procure the quota; and the very gentlemen to whom the country owes these blessings would therefore be fined for the effects of their own munificence and charity. And what were we to gain by all this vexatious and disgusting system? After paying the greatest attention to every thing that had been said in favour of this measure, it appeared to him that the expectation of its efficacy in raising the men in the first instance, rested entirely upon two grounds, 1st, that by means of this bill, you would obtain the assistance and influence of the people of landed properly in each parish, and 2dly, that you would increase the number of active recruiters beyond what you could possibly have in any other way. With respect to the influence of the landed proprietors, upon whom, in default of raising the men, the fines will fall, he must remark in the first place, that excepting in the Highlands of Scotland, and perhaps in some parts of Ireland, there were very few, if any, families in the kingdom, whose influence over the lower orders, if fairly and honourably exerted, was such as to enable them to send many men to the army. And did his Majesty's ministers expect, that the threat of a paltry fine was the way to call forth the exertions of men of the description that possess this influence? If government wished to obtain their assistance in recruiting, they must be appealed to in a different manner. But it was said, that you would, at least, obtain one active recruiter in every parish; and it was, he believed, an old maxim with persons experienced in that business, that the more recruiters the more recruits. This might, to a great degree, be the case; he really believed that the army could not supply as large a number of recruiting parties as were necessary; and he therefore agreed with the author of the bill in thinking, that it might be very desirable to have other persons employed in this service, exclusive of the regular regimental parties: but it appeared to him, that the having recourse to churchwardens and overseers of the poor, was, in every respect, the very worst mode that could be devised, and that an equal number of persons far less objectionable and more efficient for the purpose, might be obtained by the very same means on which the right hon. gent. chiefly relied for calling forth the active exertions of the parish officers. For when, in the former debates, it-was objected that in cases where they were active in endeavouring to raise their quota, it was to be feared that they might be guilty, of much oppression; and that in other cases, where they did not choose to have recourse to such means, they would probably make no exertion at all; the rt. hon. gent. in reply to the last objection had said, that he should find means of quickening their activity, by giving them a reward of so much per man; and it was upon this appeal to their interest, that he seemed chiefly to rely. But by this very same means, you might get as many men as you pleased, who would be far better recruiters than the parish officers, and would not be liable to the same objections. There was a great deal of popular outcry against crimps, and certainly he was as desirous as any man could be, that the abuses and mal practices which these people were accused of being guilty of should be prevented; but, if instead of using the appellation of crimp, connected as it is with the idea of all these abuses, he was called upon to give his opinion, with respect to the policy of employing persons who made recruiting their trade, he should certainly say that he was very far indeed from wishing to abolish that desription of men. He should, on the contrary, wish their number to be much increased; but at the same time, put under such regulations as should give govt. the power of effectually preventing these abuses that are now complained of. What these regulations might be, he was not prepared exactly to point out; nor was it necessary that he should; but amongst others, he thought it would be very desirable that no person should be allowed to enlist men for the army without a licence, which would not be granted to men of profligate characters, and which would be immediately taken away upon any proof of malpractices. Supposing no undue means to be used on either side, it was natural that persons of the description that he alluded to should in general be more successful than parish officers, both because recruiting requires a certain talent which the latter in general will not possess in the same degree as men who make it their profession; and also, because it undoubtedly is necessary that those who are employed in it should associate with the lower orders in a way that would be disgraceful in a parish officer. For both these reasons, therefore, these recruiters would get many men whom the parish officers would not get: whereas if the latter got men that the former could not, it must be by the exercise of that species of tyranny, which many gentlemen who had spoken against the bill were so justly apprehensive of. Parish officers and magistrates, if not employed in the way that was intended by this bill, would have a watchful and jealous eye over the conduct of the recruiters, and would remain in every respect in their natural situation of guardians and protectors of the poor; whereas by the present bill it becomes the interest of the magistrates to connive at these abuses, and the more direct and immediate interest of the parish officers, either to encourage crimping in others, or to practise it themselves. Upon the whole, therefore, he decidedly objected to the proposed plan of raising the men, as holding out no prospect whatever of any one advantage which might not be as effectually obtained without any of the mischief, the oppression and injustice, with which this bill was pregnant.—Having thus stated his disapprobation of this mode of attempting to raise the men in the first instance, he should now proceed to make a few observations on the use that was intended to be made of them when raised; and, in the first place, he must object to enlisting men for a service limited both as to time and place, with the design of afterwards putting them into a situation where they would be constantly urged by their own officers to extend their engagements to a service in every respect unlimited. This was a mode of recruiting the regular army which nothing but absolute necessity would induce him to consent to; for he could consider it as no other than a premeditated system of inveigling men into the service. But it might be said, that this objection did not come very well from him, who had frequently expressed himself favourable to recruiting out of the militia. He certainly did think that when that measure had been adopted last war as a temporary expedient, it was perfectly justifiable. He also thought that it ought again to be resorted to on the present occasion, instead of the gradual reduction proposed by the right hon gent., of which he would say a word or two by and by. If, as appeared to be the case, parliament was of opinion, that the regular army had not yet attained its proper strength and ought to be immediately augmented, that on the other hand the militia had been increased beyond its proper limits, and ought to be brought back to its original establishment, he certainly thought it highly desirable that the reduction of the one should be made instrumental to the augmentation of the other. But he did not see that his approbation of what had been done in this respect last war, or his recommendation of having recourse to volunteers from the militia on the present occasion, were at all inconsistent with his objections to the principles of this bill. In the first place, what had been done then, or was now proposed by him, were temporary measures, both adopted under the pressure of sudden emergencies, and the latter arising out of circumstances that could not again occur; whilst the plan proposed by the present bill was of a permanent nature. The situation of the men who were thus called upon to volunteer from the militia to the army, was also wholly different from that of the men of these second battalions. What he should propose, for instance, with respect to the militia, would be simply to write a circular letter from the war office to the colonels of each regiment, stating that parliament having come to a resolution, that the militia ought to be reduced to its old establishment, it had been resolved, that a number equal to the excess above that establishment should be allowed a bounty for entering into any regiment of the army; which letter should be read by the commanding officer at the head of his regiment. The house might feel assured that in such a case the militia officers would not use any undue means to prevail on their men to leave them; and that those who refused to go would not be reproached by their comrades who remained; so that the enlistment into the army would really be the effect of their own pure unbiassed inclination; whereas in these second battalions the men would be constantly living under the command of officers who would feel it their interest to induce them to extend their services beyond the term of their original compact or intention. It would be the interest of the officers to do so, both because it would probably be a means of recommending themselves to the favour of govt., and also because they would feel more anxious about the first battalion than the second, considering their situation in the one as only a passage to the other. A lieutenant colonel, for instance, commanding the second battalion, and knowing that, excepting only in case of invasion (which would not always be considered as probable as at present), he could never have an opportunity of leading it against the enemy, would be looking forward with impatience to the time of his being promoted to the command of the first battalion, and would use all his influence with the men under his command to prevail on them to enlist into it first, with a view to his finding it complete and efficient when he came to the command; and under such circumstances it can hardly he said that the men would be fairly left to a free option.—But still stronger than his objection to the nature of this force, was his objection to its amount. If this bill was adopted, we should, including militia, have a permanent body of 140,000 men engaged in a service limited both as to time and place, creating an enormous and fatal competition against the regular army. Some gentlemen, indeed, contended that the men who composed the home army were of a description that would not have entered the military profession at all if they had not had an opportunity of doing so without being exposed to foreign service. But if they would take the trouble of considering the causes which induced men to become soldiers, they would have reason to conclude that a very great, and perhaps by far the greatest number of the men who now enter for home service by preference, would have gone into the regular army if the former had not existed. The motives which induced men to become soldiers were either idleness and vanity, or temporary distress, or a pure ardent military spirit; the latter being indeed the most honourable, and that which produced the best soldiers, but the two former being the most prevalent and fertile sources of recruiting. By far the greater number of men would, on inquiry, be found to have enlisted either because they liked the idle life and the splendid dress of a soldier better than the drudgery and obscurity of following the plough or any other laborious profession, or because by the temporary decline or suspension of some manufactory they had been thrown out of bread, and obliged to have recourse to the army for immediate subsistence. But although the greatest part of both these descriptions of men, if they had not the option of home service, would be willing to enlist into the regular army for a limited time (particularly if they could do so without the risk of being sent to the West Indies), yet they will naturally prefer the former if open to them, because in it, without leaving their native country, they will find their idle propensities as fully gratified, or their temporary distress as amply relieved, as if they had engaged in a service of a more extensive nature: and thus, by the establishment of a large home army, you cut off from the regular, many of the most productive sources of recruiting.—But in answer to all the reasoning that had been urged in opposition to this measure, its advocates appealed to the test of experience; contending that the success of the army of reserve act (of which they considered this as a great improvement) had sufficiently exemplified the advantageous effects of such a system of recruiting: and they alledged that by that act we had raised 35,000 men, whom we could not have raised by any other means, 13,000 of whom had already been induced to enter into regiments of the line. For his own part, he doubted very much whether the army of reserve act had procured us a single man (either for home or general service), who would not otherwise have been willing to enlist into the regular army for a limited term of years, with the exception only of the very small number who had been forced into it by the direct operation of the ballots, which are now abolished, and of those who had been tempted by the enormous high bounties, which the authots of the present bill very properly proposed to put a stop to. With respect to those men who, after having entered the reserve, have refused to go any further, it was said by gentlemen on the other side, that these were men who could not by any means have been prevailed upon to have engaged for service out of the kingdom. How they were to prove this assertion he was at a loss to know; for in his opinion their remaining in the reserve did not by any means shew that they had an unconquerable aversion to foreign service, but merely that their desire of going abroad was not so eager as to induce them to exchange a service in which they would become their own masters again in four or five years, for one to which they must bind themselves for life. This consideration would prevent many, even of those who wished to extend the sphere of their action, from entering into the regulars: and even if the term of the engagement in the line was not for a greater number of years than in the reserve, yet he should not at all agree that a man's refusing to go from the one to the other did by any means amount to a proof that he had so unconquerable an aversion to foreign service, as would have prevented him becoming a soldier at all if he had not had an opportunity of doing so without exposing himself to be sent abroad; it would only shew that, having the choice of the two, he rather preferred staying at home, and that all his ends being answered in the home service he did not consider the additional bounty as a sufficient inducement to go further. But the advocates of the present measure not only maintained that the men who remain in the reserve are men whose services could not have been obtained at all in any other way, but also that the 13,000, who have gone from thence into the regular army, could not have been brought into it except through the medium of this weaning system. In attempting, however, to illustrate the admirable effects of it, they had proved too much; for the extreme quickness with which, as they say, these 13,000 men had been thus induced to enter the regular army, plainly shewed that their doing so was not owing to this sort of weaning, which it was impossible to suppose should have been effected in so short a time. The fact was that, having been originally determined to go into the regulars, they passed through the reserve merely in order to receive the additional bounty. A man, for instance, who wished to go into the 20th, or any other regiment, would not be such a fool as to enter it directly for a bounty of 10 guineas, when, by first going into the reserve, he could arrive at the very same regiment with a bounty of from 30 to 50 guineas. It therefore appeared to him to be quite clear that the whole 13,000 would have gone to the regular army at any rate, and in the highest degree probable that the greater part of the remaining 20,000 would have done the same, at least for a limited term of years, if the option of home service had not been held out to them. But even if it was true that there were a certain number of men in the country who have an insuperable objection to foreign but none to home service, still he contended that a militia establishment of 40,000 would, in his opinion, be a fully sufficient receptacle for men of that description.—He next adverted to that part of the plan by which each of the battalions of this home army was to be attached to, and form one regiment with a battalion of the line. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) seemed to think that the intimate connexion, the sort of brotherly affection existing between two battalions, the one in the East or West Indies, and the other in England, would be such as to create a much greater disposition in the men of the second to enlist into the first battalion than had been manifested by the men of the army of reserve He would not repeat what on a former day had been so well stated by his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) upon this part of the subject; but to whatever degree future experience might realize the idea of this intimate connexion, and the increased disposition to entering the line which the right hon. gent. expected to result from it, yet it was quite clear to him, that the inclination to a change of situation would be much less frequent when restricted to another battalion of the same regiment, than it would be if the men had the choice of the whole army left open to them; and therefore the right hon. gent., instead of taking credit as he had done, without any drawback for the full amount of the increase that might result from the connexion between the battalions, ought to set off against it the considerable diminution that would be the consequence of the restriction. But exclusively of the various objections which had been already urged against this plan, there was one which occurred to him and appeared to be of so much weight, that he really believed that the connexion of the second battalion, with the first, and of both with some particular county (from which the right hon. gent. expected nothing but advantages) would, in many cases, operate more powerfully than any other cause to impede the recruiting of the line, unless a very important change was previously made in the nature of its service. For the natural consequence of this connexion would be, that the soldiers of the second battalion, and also the inhabitants of the district to which it belonged, would be constancy informed, by letters from their friends and acquaintances in the first, of all the circumstances of its situation, which would frequently be described to them, and truly described, in such a manner as to take away all inclination to join it. He did not mean to allude to the complaints of the severity of the commanding officer, if he happened to enforce a more severe discipline than they had been subjected to in the home battalion, or to any comparatively trifling grievances of that nature, but to the melancholy, though not exaggerated picture, which those letters would frequently contain of the deplorable condition of the regiment, sinking under the baneful influence of a West India climate. Nor would the check that would thus be given to the recruiting of the army be confined to the effect produced upon the second battalion; for the object and natural operation of this plan, if it succeeded according to the projector's wish, would be, that each regiment of the line would by degrees become chiefly composed, of men taken from one particular part of the kingdom, the second battalions being to be recruited each in its own county and to serve as a principal nursery for the first. This seemed to be a favourite part of the plan with the right hon. gent., and he confessed that he also was, and always had been, a friend to the idea of recruiting regiments as much as possible from particular districts, though he should have proposed a different method of carrying it into execution. But before he could consider it desirable to have county regiments at all, he thought it was absolutely necessary to make such arrangements as should prevent their being exposed to be sent to the West Indies. It would at any rate, and under any circumstances, well become the wisdom and the humanity of the government or legislature, to separate the general service of the army from the duty of these unhealthy islands: but that which would be desirable at any rate, was a sine quâ non with respect to local regiments. It was well known that in every war a great proportion of our best infantry had been sacrificed to that fatal climate; which at one period of the late war in particular had gone near to effect its total destruction. Regiments that went out complete returned after twelve or fifteen months in such a state, that they were commonly and expressively called skeletons. If this should happen to a battalion of men taken indiscriminately all over the kingdom, the loss, however much to be lamented, would not come home with peculiar force to any one county, nor produce so powerful an effect on the minds of the people:—but if a regiment, entirely or chiefly composed of men from one particular district, should be sent on such a service and perish in this miserable manner, without having had an opportunity of signalizing themselves by any act of valour or leaving behind them any reputation to console their friends for the loss, was it not natural to suppose that the inhabitants of that district would be disgusted with the service of the army to such a degree as to put almost a total stop to the recruiting from it for a great length of time?—He next adverted to that part of the bill which relates to the gradual reduction of the militia, to the proposed slow and tardy method of effecting which he strongly objected. The annual supply of men stated by the right hon. gent. as having by experience been found necessary for keeping up the militia to its present establishment, was from two to three thousand; and, therefore, at that rate it would take about seven years to accomplish, in the mode now proposed, the conversion of 20,000 militia into 20,000 men of that description of force which the right hon. gent. thought so very superior to the militia even for the purposes of home defence. He was at a loss to conceive upon what principle it was that the right hon. gent. proposed so slow and tedious a process for the attainment of what he considered as so important an improvement in our military system; or why he did not rather propose to declare at once that parliament, being of opinion that it was expedient to reduce, and in future to limit the militia to its original standard, had decreed that a number of men from each regiment, equal to the excess of its present effective strength over that original establishment, should be allowed to volunteer into the regiments of the line. By this means you would obtain an immediate supply of upwards of 20,000 disciplined men to fill up the ranks of the regular army, which every body agreed in thinking ought to be augmented; and even the militia colonels themselves, many of whom he had heard to declare that it had exceeded its proper bounds, could have no reason to complain of its being at once brought back to that number, beyond which it had been found impossible to preserve the purity of its first constitutional principle, namely, the qualification of the officers. Neither could they, as he apprehended, have any just cause of complaint against this mode of effecting the proposed reduction: for the principle on which this measure would be adopted, namely, that of reducing it to its original establishment, would effectually prevent its being considered as a precedent for introducing the system of recruiting from it after it had been so reduced. Nor could this one draft from the militia, if it was done in the way he had stated in the former part of his speech, be considered either as a putting the men into an unfair situation, or as likely to throw the regiment into disorder even for a time; for he had already said that he would not send recruiting serjeants to drink with and debauch the men, but would simply and fairly give them the choice, by publishing the act of parliament, and offering them the bounty in such a manner, and through the medium of such persons as should effectually prevent the exercise of any undue means to induce them to avail themselves of it. To reduce the militia in the way he had proposed might be objected to by those who thought it as efficient for the defence of the country as troops commanded by regular officers; but he could not conceive upon what principle it was rejected by the right hon. gent., who avowed that the militia ought to be reduced and the army to be augmented; who, so lately before he came into office, had described the enemy's preparations for invading us as being of the most formidable nature; who had expressed himself so dissatisfied with the measures adopted by his predecessors for the defence of the country; and who, in his commendations of the sort of force proposed to be created by this bill, had told us that although not a single soldier in this home army should ever have seen an enemy, yet, from its being commanded by experienced officers, it would be equal to a much larger number (if he was not much mistaken, the right hon. gent. had said, to almost double the number) of militia, even for purposes only of home defence. He could not, he said, conceive how the right hon. gent., who, according to his own declarations, must necessarily consider the transfer of 20,000 men from the militia to the army as equivalent to a very considerable positive increase of the military strength of the country, could possibly, under the present circumstances, prefer a mode of effecting it, which would require seven years in its execution, to one which might easily be accomplished in half that number of weeks.—Having thus stated his objections to different parts of this bill, he must take occasion to notice the answer that it was the fashion to make to his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) when he objected to all these systems, namely, that he was very fond of criticising the plans of ministers but proposed none in lieu of them. Now, in his opinion, every really useful and excellent suggestion for the purpose of recruiting and supporting the army, was to be found in the speeches of his right hon. friend. The difference between his plan and those which he objected to was this, that the one was short and simple, but efficacious,—the others were operose, complicated and ineffectual. But it seemed as if ministers were all very desirous of the reputation of being the inventors of some great and ingenious plan, and they seemed to think that a few sensible maxims written upon a couple of pages of paper, would not appear sufficiently important. Why, in God's name, then, let them make out a plan as bulky and as complex as this is, provided only that they would just consent to annex to it a single sheet containing his right hon. friend's suggestions, and that they would so contrive the rest as not to thwart or impede their operation. The two, being thus combined, would remind him of an automaton figure that he had once seen in Germany, which, upon being exhibited, presented to the spectator the appearance of the application of a most complicated machinery, in which all the mechanical powers were combined in so wonderful a manner as to enable this automaton to play a game at chess; whilst the contrivance, by which the game was really played, and which was kept out of sight, was in fact of a simple nature: the complicated and useless machinery would be represented by the minister's plan, and the simple, but effectual contrivance, by that of his right hon. friend. Let military rank, military titles, and military honours, be confined to the regular army; let no other species of service enjoy any of its distinctions, not even its dress; let the condition of the officers, particularly in the lower ranks, be improved and made more suitable to the place they hold in society; let the regiments of the line be exempted from West India duty, the engagement for a term of years be substituted in lien of that for life, and the condition of the retired soldier who has served for a certain number of years be rendered such as to become an enviable one in the eyes of the people; and, finally, let all competition arising from services of a limited nature be wholly abolished or at least confined to a small militia. If all these suggestions were adopted, he was convinced they would prove the most effectual plan, and the only effectual one that could be devised, for keeping up our regular army; or if they did not, then indeed he should be convinced that measures of absolute compulsion must be reverted to.—There were some other topics, he said, not indeed forming any part of this bill, but the consideration of which was so intimately connected with that of the subject now before the house, that he hoped they would excuse his shortly repeating some things, which he had frequently, upon former occasions, recommended in vain. One of these proposals was, that, besides completing the regular embodied army to whatever amount it might be practicable or advisable to carry it, a large reserve should be prepared and kept in a state of readiness to join it in case of actual invasion. It was not possible, nor if possible perhaps would it be expedient, even in time of war, to keep up, in an embodied state, an army as numerous as might in that event be found necessary: and even if it was sufficiently numerous at the commencement of the operations, it would be highly important that we should have some prompt and certain means of supplying its losses. For, if the enemy should succeed in landing a very large force, we must expect that he would maintain himself for a considerable length of time, and that every effort would be made to support this first attack by fresh disembarkations. For both these purposes, therefore, that is to say, both for the augmentation of the army in the first moment of invasion, and likewise for the purpose of constantly preserving its strength unimpared during the course of the operations which would follow, he had before proposed, and must again recommend, that a very numerous reserve should be enrolled, trained in their respective parishes, and kept in readiness to be incorporated into the regular regiments, but not liable to be called out until the enemy's fleets actually approached the coast.—Another means of adding to the strength and security of the country, upon which he had laid very great stress on former occasions, and relative to which subsequent experience had fully confirmed him in every opinion he had then expressed, was that which might be derived from a judicious system of fortification. From what had lately passed, it appeared that a right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) would approve of adopting this means of defence only upon a very limited and economical scale; whereas he, on the contrary, had in view the execution of a system, which would certainly be attended with considerable expense. But as the objects which he aimed at, if they could be accomplished, would add most essentially to our security, he thought that parliament would ill discharge its duty to its constituents by refusing what might be necessary for that purpose, whilst such large sums were constancy expended upon objects far less essential to the prosperity and welfare of the state. In speaking upon this subject he had formerly recommended—1st, to render really inattackable those parts of the coast of the narrow seas that are within reach of that species of force with which the enemy is now preparing to attack us (and that this was practicable, he would willingly undertake to prove, and pledge his professional character upon the issue): 2dly, so to prepare and strengthen the country between the coast and the capital, as would ensure our retarding the enemy's progress towards London, for a sufficient length of time, to enable us to call forth the whole strength of the country: 3dly, to put our great magazines and arsenals in such a state that they could not be taken or destroyed without the forms of a regular siege; and, 4thly, to fortify the environs of the capital itself in such a manner as should enable its inhabitants, with the assistance of a small number of regular troops, to prevent the enemy's becoming master of it even in case of the main body of our army having been obliged to withdraw for a time.—There was another measure which he and others had frequently recommended, namely, the more general arming and training of the people. To the adoption of this measure, to a certain extent, he thought the right hon. gent. was pledged by the opinion he had expressed in a debate which took place very shortly before his coming into office. He therefore expected that he would bring forward some proposal for this purpose; and he pledged himself to give it his support, as heartily as if it came from an administration with which he was more satisfied than he or the country had reason to be with that which had lately been formed.—He had thought it his duty to take this opportunity of expressing his opinions upon these topics, though not immediately connected with the present bill. To the bill itself he should, in every stage of it, give his most decided opposition; because it was injudicious in its details, vexatious and unjust in its principle, and he was convinced would be found to be totally insufficient for the attainment of its object; and because, by establishing a home army of 140,000 men, enjoying the honours, distinctions, and gratifications of a soldier's life, it would raise a fatal competition against the regular army.

spoke also against the bill. He admitted that it might, in many instances, be expedient during a period of war, but he could not approve it as a permanent system. But, even in the former case, he was convinced that without the utmost vigilance and exertion to render it efficient, it would, like the army of reserve act, prove ineffectual.

said, that the bill could not possibly receive any alteration in the committee that could reconcile him to its principle. He wished, however, that all opposition to it might be with held until after it had passed through that stage.

replied to the arguments that had been urged against the bill. He did not understand what the hon. gent. who opened the debate meant by saying that in this bill there was no novelty. It had become the fashion to talk in this manner; but was not the destruction of the ballot a novelty? The gent. who followed (Mr. P. Moore) had harangued upon the measures pursued by James H. but where the resemblance between his measures and the present one existed, he was really at a loss to conceive. A right. hon. gent. however (Mr. Yorke), though not friendly to the bill, had discovered in it a very novel principle, namely, that of doing away ballots, a principle which he conceived to constitute a material difference between this and all preceding measures on the subject, and which would go to obviate the oppressive principle so generally the subject of complaint. Some gentlemen argued against the bill, as going to constitute in the country a great standing army; while others again opposed it principally because it did not go to create a standing army; between such contrariety of opinions upon the tendency of the same measure, it was indeed difficult to draw a line of reconciliation. The hon. officer (Col. Craufurd) who spoke last,—and for contesting with whom upon military subjects, he perhaps ought to apologize—seemed to think the mode of raising men through the interference of parish officers utterly objectionable, and likely to be productive of no good effect. He did not pretend to question the skill of experienced officers, whose professional business it was to manage troops after they were, raised; but he must claim the privilege of exercising his judgment as a private member of parliament, upon the most likely mode of raising those men in the parochial districts. The hon. colonel seemed to think crimps a very useful body of men, who ought not to be abolished. He, however, thought them, as many other members uniformly did, disgraceful to the service; and he was sorry to understand, that many gentlemen who had occasion to raise men, were obliged sometimes to resort to their aid; but he thought the mode of raising men by the interference of parish officers infinitely more eligible, as exempt from the fraudulent artifices so usual with crimps. He contended that the mere unaided system of recruiting held out no prospect of success, and that the bill contained provisions for the augmentation of the regular army, which at least ought fairly to be put to the trial.

in explanation said, that there was nothing novel in the bill that could be obtained through the medium of the parish officers.

rose also to explain. He maintained that the bill would procure no men for the regular army who would not have entered independent of it, and that any men which it did procure would be obtained by means the most detestable. He denied that he had supported crimping generally, but asserted that the practice might, under proper regulations, be tolerated.

objected to the measure upon constitutional grounds; because, in as much as it enabled the Crown to issue its orders to draw from the collectors of land tax throughout the realm the money for raising those recruits, without any resort to parliament, or any appeal to a committee of supply or ways and means, it thereby enabled the Crown to levy an army of 68,000 men, independently of parliament. He would not presume to say our present gracious Sovereign would abuse such a power, but it might be transferred to the hands of other princes, when it would be liable to abuse; and parliament, without abandoning the most valuable of its own privileges, the privilege of control, could not rest such a power in any monarch. The bill, besides, would impose upon the parish-officer new and obnoxious duties. It would render him officially a spy of the govt. on the people; it would convert him into a crimp serjeant; it would oblige him to abandon his duties over the morals, the good order, and the sobriety of his parish; and it would oblige him to decoy his poor parishioners to the ale-house, and make them drunk, as the crimps do, in order to inveigle them to enlist; or, what was to the full as bad, they would be obliged to resort to the aid of crimps; besides, it would enhance the parochial taxes heavily on those who are already highly taxed for poor's rates.

sais, the hon. bart. who spoke last, had stated so forcibly many of the objections which he himself entertained against the bill, that be felt it unnecessary to repeat them. But there was another point not yet suggested against the bill, which amounted, in his mind, to an insuperable objection, namely, that it would go to impose a direct and permanent tax upon the landed property of the country, and he thought it the duty of that house to guard against such a measure; nor should he feel that he discharged his duty to his country, if he had not given it his decided opposition. One principle he always thought it necessary to maintain with the utmost care, namely, that parochial taxes and public revenue should be always kept totally distinct in their collection and application; and he thought it highly objectionable that parochial taxes should be levied for raising a public force, which should be defrayed, more properly, by the revenues of the state. Another objection to the present bill was, that it would go to impose upon overseers, and other parish-officers, new duties infinitely too arduous for them to undertake, in addition to the duties already imposed upon them, and which the house would see, from the voluminous returns on the table, respecting the poor of the country, were sufficiently arduous. It would be impracticable in most, if not in all parishes, to levy the number of men within the time prescribed. Parish officers would be obliged to travel out of their districts to a considerable distance in trying to raise those men, and travelling expenses would occur and be charged on the parish, in spite of the provisions of an act of parliament; and, after all, the fine would be incurred on the failure of raising the quantum of men, which must necessarily fall on the landed property in the end. For what, he would ask, were the poor's rates in every parish, but deductions from the rents, that would otherwise be payable to the landlord? Another ill effect from the bill, would be, to excite considerable jealousies in parishes which had already stood ballots for the militia and army of reserve, and paid large sums in fines, or for substitutes; which parishes, as well as individuals therein, who had already paid fines, or found substitutes, would again be liable to a levy of a new tax, for the objects of the present bill.

said, that for the last six months nothing had been heard on either side of the house but the necessity of increasing our regular army. He agreed that the ground of constitutional zeal, was a fair ground of jealousy against a standing army, but after the opinion he had alluded to on this subject, it could not be asserted, that our regular army had reached a degree of magnitude, such as to give room for a jealousy of this kind. As to the permanency of this measure, the best rule for proportioning its duration was the continuance of the existing danger; and he would ask, who was there that could ascertain the limits of a danger which, it has been said, may last the life of the youngest member of that house? As to the danger to be apprehended from a standing army, he would ask, whether this bill put it out of the power of parliament to suppress and destroy the force that it was now about to organise, if at any time it should apprehend such danger from it. He would ask the hon. gent. below (Mr. Shaw Lefevre), whether he had not known and acted upon a measure more severe than this, he meant the army of reserve act, of which this was an improvement and a mitigation. With respect to parish-officers they were the persons who, from local knowledge, would be most beneficially, and at the same time most safely intrusted with the execution of the measure. That hon. gent. had, of course, frequently acted as deputy lieutenant, and in that situation, he, the constables, and other inferior officers, had alone the same duties which he now thought it too much to impose on the parish officers. In times like the present, when the dearest interests of all were equally at stake, it would not be fair or just to plead one duty as an excuse for the non performance of another. The house was placed in a singular situation, there was no one point in which gentlemen more disagreed. Some thought crimps detestable, others thought they were necessary; some thought the militia should be reduced, others thought that it should be kept up; some thought the ballot useful, others thought that it should be destroyed. He asked whether, from what had been experienced, there was any rational ground to hope for any plan that would give general satisfaction? He asked whether it was not playing a game in which our dearest interests were involved, to throw difficulties in the way of every measure proposed with a view to the first object of the country? If even the measure militated against what he thought it would promote, he thought the house ought to go into a committee upon it, if it afforded a chance of the advantages which its proposers expected from it. In dangerous times it would be a great reproach to oppose anything that afforded such a prospect. For himself, he thought most highly of a measure which did not interfere with any force that we possessed, while it afforded a strong and fair expectation of an improvement of which every one acknowledged the importance.

could not consent to such an expedient, except in case of an emergency, which did not exist. The parochial officers had no means of recruiting, except by oppressing those who were within their power. It was true they could not send the lame, the halt, and the blind into the ranks, but they would force such decrepid persons to send their young and able relations, who would prefer going, to having the unhappy sufferers deprived of parochial support. The fines were unjust and impolitic, as they would bear most heavily on the parishes which were most industrious, and had least of idle loose fellows.—It had been urged as an objection to the opposition to this bill, that its opponents were not agreed as to its faults; that one party condemned this provision, while another condemned that, and a third opposed it on a ground different to both those. In his opinion, the multiplicity of the grounds of opposition was the strongest argument against the bill; for if there were only one fault, however great it might be, it was possible it could be overbalanced by the other provisions; but when every one of the provisions was objected to in one quarter or another, it was impossible the measure could be good. He thought it highly unjust that the bill went equally to burthen these who had provided substitutes, and who therefore had a right to consider themselves exempted from every burthen, and those who had not contributed in any such way, for the bill went to burthen the parishes in toto.—The question being loudly called for, the house divided on the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair, when there appeared, ayes 219, noes 169—Majority 50. The house accordingly resolved itself into a committee.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated, that he meant to propose his amendments, and that any gent. besides, who had come prepared with any, might also propose them; and that he meant to move that the report be brought up on Thursday, when it might be taken into consideration.—On this exposition the committee had proceeded to the 8th page of the bill, where

adverted to a clause in the page at which the committee then was, but said he would not detain the house by going into particular observations at present, as he understood the bill was to be recommitted on Thursday.

left it to the judgment of the house whether a recommitment was necessary. In his opinion the amendments were such as would not require it, but if it should be the sense of any number of gentlemen that they did, he should not object to that proceeding. The right hon. gent. then stated, that he proposed to fill up the blank relating to the number which should be allowed annually to volunteer into the line, with the words "twelve thousand," and therefore this would be the number to be annually raised. In answer to a question from Mr. Johnstone, he stated that he meant to fillanother blank preceding with the words the "1st day of Oct. 1804."

said, he looked upon it as an inconsistency with the opening speech of the right hon. gent. that 12,000 men should be allowed to enter into the line annually. On the occasion to which he had adverted, the right hon. gent. had said, that only one-sixth was to be permitted to enter into the line annually. As he understood the bill to relate at present to England exclusively, he conceived this proposition to be entirely lost sight of. As this was a matter of extreme importance he thought it essential that the blanks should only be filled up pro formâ at present, in order that all points may be better reconsidered on Thursday.

stated, that it must be in the recollection of the house that in the former measure of the army of reserve bill, the house proceeded clause by clause. It was impossible that the present bill could be sufficiently; considered in this cursory way; a recommitment was absolutely necessary.

said, he would only ask, whether the bill was of any importance? He understood it was of great importance. He was brought to look upon it as the means of contrasting the powers of the right hon. gent. to provide a better defence for the country with those of the late govt. He had always been averse to the practice of running through any stage of proceeding; but he never conceived that such a practice could be countenanced, except with an understanding that the measure should be afterwards recommitted. The right hon. gent. said, he had no amendment of any importance to propose. He would ask the right hon. gent., whether it could be supposed that no other gentlemen had amendments to propose but himself, and whether he could answer for the importance of such amendments? He asked, whether, in the temper in which the house was, and at this late hour, it would be right to go through this stage at this hour? He hoped the right hon. gent.'s candour would not permit him to oppose the reprinting and recommitment of the bill.

said, that before he had set out he had called the attention of the house to such amendments as he proposed to make, and invited them at the same time to suggest theirs. He conceived it would be for the convenience of the house to proceed this way; but if any person wished to have the bill read clause by clause, he had no objection to begin it again, and go on as far as the strength of gentlemen would permit, and to resume the proceedings on the next opportunity, going on with good humour, and reserving all warmth for the other stages.

had no objection to go on with good humour, and to defer that warmth of which the right hon. gent. was himself so capable. It was the regular form of a committee that the bill should be read paragraph by paragraph; without that, a committee was of no use, and if ever that was omitted, it was on the understanding that it should be done at another opportunity. If the house was tricked out of it at present, it must be in the confidence that it would be done on another day. As to beginning now, if there was no other objection to it, it would be a very strong one, that they had gone to the 7th or 8th page of the bill without doing any-such thing. It would be more respectful to the house to have the bill recommitted.

was not captious with respect to words; but he thought it rather an odd time to apply to him "tricking," when he agreed to have the bill read paragraph by paragraph. In answer to those who supposed that the operation of the bill would not commence till Oct. he stated that idea was taken from the filling up one blank with that month. The filling up of the quotas was to commence in 14 days after the passing of the bill. He had no objection to have the bill now read paragraph by paragraph.

, asked, whether there had not been a certain degree of tumult since the last division. He saw no signs of the usual attention bestowed on bills of this kind in a committee. He saw very few gentlemen with pencils in their hands to mark them (a laugh). Gentlemen might laugh, but he was impelled by a sense of duty to his country and his constituents, which would not allow him to suffer himself to be laughed down. The present bill had been made the scene of much party animosity; he meant by this a fair warmth with respect to the govt. which it was best for the country to have. Gentlemen had come down prepared to discuss the point in that view, and were unprepared to go into the details of it. For himself, he had no objection to the right hon. gent. (the Chancellor of the Exch.); but he considered this as a time when every hand and every voice should be united in defence of the country; and, therefore, he disapproved of an administration which was formed on exclusive principles. Every person who heard him knew he had none but honest motives; he opposed this bill on the broad grounds of its being the first act of an administration whose principles were not fair, nor such as he could approve of. He said it loudly, for he wished it to be known from one end of the country to the other. The hon. baronet continued to comment on the appointment of the present ministers, till he was called to order by Sir Robert Buxton. The hon. baronet then reverted to the question, and suggested, that the chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

said, that it was clear that all this confusion had arisen from the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer not having at once given into the proposition of his hon. friend (Mr. Johnstone.) There were but two modes of proceeding decently, the first and best was, reading the bill, in the first instance, paragraph by paragraph; the other which had prevailed much of late years, which was to have the blanks filled up pro formâ, and the bill read paragraph by paragraph on the re-commitment. Surely it could not be intended to pass a bill of this importance without reading it paragraph by paragraph in some stage. It was true, the right hon. gent. said he was ready now to allow it to be read paragraph by paragraph; but though he wished very much for this course at some future opportunity, if it was offered only for this night he would oppose the further progress, and support the motion for the chairman leaving the chair.

had no objection to have the bill read paragraph by paragraph, and saw no reason why it should not be done now. He put it to the house to begin to read the bill in this manner now. (A loud cry of no! no!) If any gent. was of a different opinion, let him move that the chairman do report progress, and let the sense of the house be taken upon it.

accordingly moved that the chairman do now leave the chair.

stated as his grounds for postponing the consideration of the clauses, the importance of the measure which was to raise 74,000 men. He also asked, whether it was possible that this inefficient plan should raise before the 1st of Oct. 9,000 men due to the militia, and 7000 to the army of reserve?

, to order, said that it was not allowable to enter into these particulars on a question of filling up a blank.

said this was the most extraordinary doctrine he had ever heard. His hon. friend wished to state, that it was important to put off the filling up of a blank, and was proceeding to state his grounds for holding that opinion—

said, it was not right to go into the principle on such a question.

resumed, and stated, as an additional ground for putting off the consideration of the clauses, that one of them went to authorise a correspondence between the commanding officers of regiments, and the constables and parish officers. He did not like to use harsh words, but he thought it absolutely indecent to hurry through measures of such importance.

maintained, that it was the regular course to recommit the bill when it was not read paragraph by paragraph. The committee could not now begin to read it paragraph by paragraph, because that would be to contradict west was always assumed in these cases, that the bill had actually been read in the regular way. The house would not have suffered the bill to have proceeded so far except on a belief that the bill was to re-committed.

said, the house had proceeded thus far in the committee on an understanding, which, when it was directly put to the right hon. gent., he said he had been misunderstood. He never knew an instance where a re-commitment did not take place under such circumstances. The house could not now go back to read the bill paragraph by paragraph, from the beginning, for the reason that had been stated. Neither would the proposition of the hon. baronet afford any relief, as if the chairman was to report progress, the committee should resume the consideration of the bill exactly at the same point. The only proper proceeding, therefore, was that suggested by the hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Johnstone), to have the bill recommitted on a future day.

conceived it to be perfectly usual and regular to go back, when a committee had by inadvertency gone beyond any thing that required amendment. He therefore still proposed to begin to read the bill anew. If it was designed that the bill should make no further progress this night, he feared that could be easily accomplished, but he would try how far it was possible to go. When any thing arose that was likely to create discussion, he would move to adjourn the debate.

could see nothing improper or unusual in his motion. Menace he had held out none: all he wished was, to have the house placed in that situation in which it had stood before it had allowed itself to misunderstand the meaning of the right hon. gent. The bill was unquestionably of importance, and it was somewhat extraordinary if the house was to be deprived of its usual privilege of going through it paragraph by paragraph, under the idea that they were entitled to go back; and if the preamble had been already postponed, be should move immediately afterward that the chairman do now leave the chair.

said, he had always understood it to be a privilege of a committee of that house to go through every bill paragraph by paragraph, nor could he conceive that any person could hint at a departure from that, rule, but with the understanding that another opportunity of doing so would afterwards be afforded. The present hour of eleven o'clock, on a night when it could not have been in the contemplation of any gent. that such a measure would be pushed on, did not seem a proper season for entering on such a business If the contrary was maintained, let the history, of the proceedings of the last hour be the answer.

observed, that the discussion had now assumed a different complexion. The amendments which he had to propose in the bill were of so simple a nature, that he conceived no gent. could have any reasonable objection to them; but, however, perceiving the opinion of the committee to be, that the bill should be recommitted, he should, in order to give gentlemen who may have amendments to offer an opportunity to bring them forward, not oppose the motion for the chairman's leaving the chair.—The chairman accordingly then left the chair, and the Speaker having resumed his seat, the report was brought up, and ordered for consideration on Thursday.