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Commons Chamber

Volume 2: debated on Wednesday 13 June 1804

House of Commons

Wednesday, June 13 1804

Minutes

Lord Stopford at the bar, acquainted the house that his Majesty had been waited on with several addresses from the house, and that his Majesty had been graciously pleased to issue orders accordingly.—Mr. R. Mitford, from the commissioners of customs in Scotland, presented, pursuant to order of the house, accounts of the quantity of corn, grain, malt, flour, meal, &c. exported from and imported into Scotland, &c. Ordered to lie on the table and to be printed.—Mr. Rose moved, that so much of the 43d of his Majesty as related to the sale of East-India goods, taken and condemned as prizes, should be read. He then moved that the house resolve into a committee to consider of said act.—The house having resolved into the committee, Mr. Sturges Bourne in the chair, Mr. Rose stated, that by this act, no East-India prize which might be taken into any of the outer ports could be exposed to sale, the act providing, that such goods should be brought to London for that purpose. Many privateers had taken goods of that description into Liverpool, where they had been landed and warehoused; and it was to enable the captain to dispose of them in that port, without the expense of sending them to London, that he moved, that it be the opinion of the committee, that the chairman do move the house for leave to bring in a bill for that purpose. On the house being resumed, leave was given.—On the motion of Mr. Sturges Bourne, the committees of supply and ways and means were put off till Friday.—On the motion of Mr. Foster, the house resolved itself into a committee on the linen duty exemption bill. The report to be received to-morrow.—Thehouse, on the motion of Mr. Foster, went into the committee on the 43d of his Majesty, relative to the regulation of the corn trade between England and Ireland. The committee resolved that the act ought to be revived; and the chairman, Mr. Alexander, was directed to move for leave to bring in a bill accordingly. The house then resumed, the report was received, and leave was given to bring in the bill.

Liskeard Election

presented a petition from John Dayman, under sheriff of Cornwall, who is now in the custody of the serjeant at arms; stating, that his having sent up a double return from Liskeard, on the 9th of March last, proceeded entirely from inexperience, and not from any intention of violating the privileges of parliament; that, for this improper conduct, he asked pardon of the house; and he humbly prayed, that the house would extend their indulgence to him in his present situation. The hon. gent. then moved, that Mr. John Dayman be brought up to-morrow, in order to be discharged.

said, he did not mean to make the slightest opposition to the motion. He did think that the transaction in which this man Had been involved was one of that nature, which, if the house passed over without some mark of censure, it would abandon its privileges. He was ready to admit that there were many circumstances of extenuation in this man's case, which might call for the indulgence of the house; and he hoped the example, which his case now afforded, would have its due effect in preventing a like offence, on the part of others. The motion was then agreed to.

Irish Linen Manufacture Bill

moved the order of the day for the house to resolve itself into a committee to consider of the linen trade. And the house being in a committee, he said, the measure which he had to submit to the consideration of the committee embraced three material objects. In the first place, he meant to propose an alteration in the mode of appointing linen inspectors in Ireland. The trustees there had now the power of appointing four inspectors; but it would be necessary to give them a further power to appoint others in their stead, if it should be necessary; in order to guard against any frauds that might be practised in the inspection of linens. The next regulation was one which concerned England; and the object of it was, to give speedy redress, when it should be required, to parties complaining of the bad quality of linen. When a complaint of this kind was made in Ireland, the trustees of the linen board had the power of summoning all the parties, and referring the matter in dispute to two or three persons, whose business it was to examine the linens, and to see if they were damaged, unsound, or bad, and were to give a decision on oath, which decision on oath was binding on the parties. This summary mode of proceeding prevented much litigation, and produced very beneficial effects. It was his intention to propose the adoption of a similar system in London, for the purpose, of protecting the English purchasers of linen against any frauds whatever, as to the quality of the goods. The linen board of Dublin had an agent residing here; and whenever a complaint was made against the quality of linen, brought over here from Ireland, it would be proper to invest this agent with a power to examine persons on oath, in the same manner as was done in Dublin, as to the state of such linen. The linen must be produced before two persons who should be sworn to give a fair and impartial decision. The agent here should have in this respect the same power as possessed by the trustees in Dublin. The parties in Ireland might appeal against the decision of this tribunal, but, if they did, it must be at their own risk; and if they did not succeed in the appeal, they must pay all expenses which they had put the others to. The third point which formed a part of his plan went to ensure the quality of the linen. The bleachers of Ireland have lately made an alteration in the mode of bleaching linen; instead of potash, they employed an ingredient called muriatic acid. It was said by many persons, that this considerably injured the quality of the linen; although it had the effect of bleaching much sooner; and it was thought the use of it ought to be discouraged. On this subject, he could give no other opinion than this, that experience had not yet sufficiently ascertained whether it was injurious or not, and that therefore it would not be proper, without further information, to forbid the use of it altogether. But, in order to satisfy those who thought it injured the linen, and prevent any deception from being practised on them, it should be provided, that every licensed bleacher, when he sent his linens to market, should be obliged to put under his name the word muriatic on each piece of linen bleached by means of muriatic acid. By this means, if the thing was bad, the public and the purchasers would know at once what to do, and be protected against fraud; and if it should be found, on experience, to be good, the public would have the benefit of it in time; for it would in time find its own way. These were the principal regulations which he proposed for the benefit of the linen trade; and having thus stated them briefly, he would not take up the time of the house any longer than barely to move a resolution, that the chairman do ask for leave to bring in a bill to explain and amend the laws relative to the linen manufactures of Ireland.—The resolution was agreed to, and the house being resumed, leave was given to bring in the bill.

, at the same time, observed, that the progress of bleaching by the help of muriatic acid was very prejudicial to the linen.

Misdemeanour Prosecution Bill

moved the order for receiving the report of the misdemeanour prosecution bill.

objected to the bill, as a measure coming into the house under the authority and recommendation of the quarter sessions, which might entertain views on such a subject, very different from what the house ought to have. He was sorry to observe, that, for some years, the house had been too much in the habit of legislating in the spirit of county quarter, sessions. This bill purported to be an act for the maintenance of the due authority of magistrates. All that was very proper; but what was meant in the bill by due authority? Was there any relaxation of their authority, to require a penal statute to enforce it? This was not a proper mode of proceeding; it was going into a general canvass for new penal laws. Disapproving, as he did, of the bill, unless some necessity was shewn for it, he wished it might be put off to some distant day: and, if such a measure was necessary, let it be brought forward next session.

said, he was willing to put this bill off till Friday, and afterwards for three months, if required. He said, he had brought it forward at the request of several magistrates in the county to which he belonged, and who declared, that, without such a measure, they could not properly go on in the discharge of their duty. The law was not to be altered by it, but would be more effectually executed. Many prosecutions had failed, in consequence of magistrates not knowing who were to defray the expense. If a man should commit perjury before them, they had a right to commit for trial; but they could not determine who should defray the expense of the prosecution. This was a matter which ought to be regulated. That was the object of the bill now before the house.

declared, that the magistrates of Yorkshire had stated to him, that they felt great difficulty in discharging their duty, in consequence of the want of such an act as this.

said, he did not rise to oppose the bill; but merely to ask, if the bill was to pass away till next session, why it might not be put off at once, instead of taking up the time of the house by bringing it forward next Friday?

said, he had no objection to do so; and the bill was accordingly put off for three months.

Woollen Manufacture Bill

rose to move the order of the day for the second reading of the Yorkshire clothiers' regulation bill. And at the same time he thought it necessary to say a few words upon the subject of it. He had brought in that bill, pursuant to certain petitions which he had presented to the house, without giving any opinion whatever upon the subject. There were many old and obsolete statutes on the subject of the woollen manufacture, which had long been wholly inapplicable to the trade itself; and of course, were not obeyed. Several vexatious prosecutions were carried on for the non-observance of these statutes; so as to render it necessary, for the relief of cloth manufacturers, last year, to bring in a bill to suspend all the penal actions then pending. That bill would expire on the first of July, and then the actions might go on, unless a fresh bill was introduced, and the act revived. But that bill chiefly affected the clothiers in the west of England, who differed very materially from the clothiers of Yorkshire. The former acted in the double character of manufacturers and merchants. But those of Yorkshire acted as a kind of middle men, and carried on the trade on an inferior scale. When their goods were manufactured, they carried them to market, and sold them to others, who were merchants. The situation, therefore, and the interest of these parties, were different Some of the old statutes affected the manufacturers of the west of England, but did not affect those of Yorkshire. With respect to the bill now before the house, he certainly thought it contained principles which the house ought not to entertain hastily. He did not know that the whole country was unanimous on the subject of it. There was a certain district which would certainly not agree to it $ and if the bill should pass, he hoped that district would be excluded from its operation. If not, the manufacturers of that district would go into Lancashire, and carry on their trade there. He did not think it fit that a restrictive law should operate in one place, and that the people of the rest of the kingdom should be left to carry on their business as they pleased. The people who were hostile to this bill, did not petition against it; because they knew that the house of commons would never maintain such a principle of trade as it held out. He wished to take this opportunity of asking the right hon. gent. at the head of his Majesty's cabinet, whether he thought it would be right next year to revise the whole of the statutes relative to the woollen manufacturers, and bring forward, in the course of next session, some, simple, comprehensive, and effectual law on this subject? He earnestly wished that the business might be taken up on a broad ground at some future period; and if so, the present bill would be unnecessary.

said, he was happy to hear so ample an explanation on the subject from the hon. gent. The present bill he considered unnecessary: and would therefore move to put it off for three months.

said, it was most evident that the bill contained provisions which ought not to be adopted without mature deliberation, and he did not think it ought to be passed in the present session. With respect to the revision of those penal statutes, on which many vexatious actions had been brought, he could not pledge himself to the hon. gent. as to his adopting any measure on the subject hereafter. It was much to be wished that the consideration of the whole of those statutes might be gone into; but, at the present advanced period of session, he was afraid that could not be done; and that no other mode for meeting the exigency of the moment could be resorted to, but that of reviving the suspending act of last session. He hoped, however, that, in another session, the business might be introduced in a manner by which it might be brought to some general conclusion.

said, that the bill passed last session for suspending the penal actions, had cost the parties interested in bringing it forward, no less a sum than 13,000l.

wished the bill to be put off, and that some great and effectual regulation might be adopted for the whole kingdom. But he would never consent to any measure, that might alter or interrupt that general system of domestic industry and domestic happiness, which prevailed among the cloth manufacturers of the county he had the honour to represent—Tbe second reading of the bill was then put off for three months.

Slave Trade

On the report of the bill for abolishing the slave trade, and the question being put for calling in counsel;

gave notice, that he would move an amendment in the bill. The bill already stated, that all vessels coming with slaves to the West Indies, after the 1st of January, should be forfeited, except those that had cleared out from Great Britain within 14 days after the passing of the act. But as he understood many vessels had been for some time in a state of preparation, and might not be able to clear out within that period, and as they might suffer great injury, if the words stood as they new were in the bill, he should move to insert, instead of them, "the 1st of October 1804."—The counsel in attendance were then called in to argue according to the different petitions against the bill.—Mr. Pigot and Mr. Plumar appeared at the bar as counsel for the merchants, traders, and mortgagees, trading to, and possessing property in, the West India islands.—Mr. Alexander and Mr. Clarke, as counsel for the merchants and traders of Liverpool; and Mr. Scarlet, as counsel for Mr. Lyon, agent for the island of Jamaica.—The report of the committee, and the title of the different Petitions were read.—Mr. Pigot prooeeded in argument as leading counsel against the bill. After he had spoken for a few minutes, Mr. Fuller moved that the house be counted. There being only thirty members present, an adjournment of course took place.