House of Commons
Thursday, June 14 1804
Minutes
Sir John Keane presented a petition from certain inhabitants of the town of Youghall, in the county of Cork, against the corn trade bill, which was ordered to lie on the table.—Lord Marsham, chairman of the Middlesex committee, stated, that William Ilett had been guilty of disobedience to the summons of the committee, and of gross misbehaviour when brought before the committee. He therefore moved, that the said William Ilett be committed to the custody of the Serjeant at arms, and that the serjeant at arms shall take the said Wm. Ilett before the committee as often as may be found necessary, which was ordered accordingly.—On the motion of Mr. Manning, an humble address was ordered to be presented to his Majesty, praying, that an account be laid before the house of all the silver imported into the mint, and of all the silver that had been coined from the 18th of March 1797 to the 21st of Dec. 1803, specifying the respective dates when the bullion was received. Ordered.—Mr. Foster brought in the bill for the better regulation of the linen manufacture in Ireland, which was read a first time and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow, and to be printed.—A message from the lords was received, giving their concurrence to the annual Irish accounts' presentation bill, and to two other private bills.—On the motion of the solicitor general, the attorneys' indemnity bill was read a third time and passed.—Sir John Sinclair brought up the report of the committee appointed to inquire into the quantity of malt made from barley, the growth of Scotland, and that made from barley, the growth of England, which was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.—On the motion of Sir Theophilus Metcalf for the second reading of the cotton manufacture bill, Colonel Stanley begged it to be understood that his silence in the present stage of this bill should not be construed into approbation, or considered as preventing his objecting to it at a future period. The bill was then read a second time, and committed for Tuesday next.—Mr. Rose brought in a bill for the sale of certain East India prize goods in the port of Liverpool, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the linen exemption duty bill, which was ordered to be engrossed, and the bill to be read a third time to-morrow.—Mr. H. Lascelles moved, that leave be given to bring in a bill to continue the suspension of certain acts relative to the woolen manufacture, which expire on the 1st of July, 1804, to the 1st of July, 1805.—Sir C. Bunbury brought up the report of the committee appointed to take into consideration the state of the corn laws, which was ordered for consideration on Tuesday next, and to be printed.—Mr. Whitbread stated, that the papers he had moved for concerning the lord advocate of Scotland were not yet arrived; but as they were daily expected, and would not be bulky, and might soon be printed, he would now give notice that, on to-morrow se'nnight, he would bring forward a motion on the subject.—Mr. Foster gave notice, that, on Wednesday, in the committee of ways and means, he should bring forward a motion respecting the financial situation of Ireland.
Liskeard Election
The order of the day being read, that John Dayman be brought to the bar of the house, and he being brought to the bar,
reprimanded him, in the name of the house, for his conduct in his office, in the late return for the borough of Liskeard: the reprimand was as follows, viz: "Mr. John Dayman, a select committee of this house, appointed to try and determine the merits of the last return for the borough of Liskeard, have reported, that you, being under-sheriff of the county of Cornwall, in annexing to the writ the indenture complained of by the petition of Mr. Huskisson, acted contrary to your duty, and in violation of the privileges of parliament: upon this charge you have been heard; and the house, after hearing you, has resolved, that you are guilty of the offence laid to your charge, and has ordered you into the custody where you now are.—The office of sheriff is a trust of the highest importance to the parliamentary constitution of this country; the impartial execution of its duties is indispensably necessary to the preservation of the rights and privileges of this house; and all practices employed to falsify or delay the returns of members to serve in parliament demand the severest examination. — Your professional education and general habits of life ought to have made you acquainted with the duties of the office which you undertook, or you should have abstained from it altogether; besides which, it is but too plain, from the facts in evidence, that your attention was awakened at the time to the illegality of the act which you proceeded deliberately to commit. — This house, nevertheless, in consideration of your alleged inexperience in such matters, and the contrition which you now feel for your offence; and hoping that the public notice which your case has attracted may operate as a salutary warning to others upon whom the like duties may devolve, has ordered that you be now discharged; and you are discharged accordingly, paying your fees.—"Ordered, men., con., that what has been now said by Mr. Speaker, in reprimanding the said Mr. John Dayman, be entered in the Journal of this House.
Additional Force Bill
moved the order of the day for taking this bill further consideration, and that it be re-committed to a committee of the whole house. The house accordingly went into a committee. The clause specifying the number of men intended to be raised in each county being read,
rose, and said, he objected to the clause alluded to, not from his being one of those who disapproved of the bill in toto, from the circumstances under which the right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) had come into office, but because he thought the bill totally nugatory, inadequate to the objects in view, and unworthy of the great talents which that right hon. gent. possessed. It commanded the people to do that which it was impossible they could be able to do; it commanded them to raise a certain number of men forthwith. He wished gentlemen to advert to what had taken place in regard to the army of reserve. That body of men were nearly 9000 deficient of their number. A great part of that deficiency originated in the counties of Middlesex, Surry, Kent, and Essex; and he contended that it arose not from any want of zeal on the part of the parishes to complete their numbers, they having used every possible exertion. If parishes were not able to raise men, by granting bounties of 40l. or 50l. how was it possible that the house should flatter itself that they would be enabled to raise them by the low bounties suggested by that bill? Whatever influence the parish officers possessed, it was only to be found in the internal parts of the country. It was impossible to suppose that parish officers, or church-wardens, could be instrumental in raising men in the city of London, while in the county of Middlesex alone there was actually a deficiency of 1800 men for the army of reserve; a circumstance which, he thought, arose from so many of the inhabitants not having a fixed and permanent residence when the ballots took place. There could not be any possible remedy in that particular, while at the same time the short space of forty days, after the first meeting of the lieutenancy, was all that was allowed to raise the men; that was a circumstance which increased the hardship in an excessive degree, by exposing parishes to a fine of 20l. for each deficiency. He suggested, therefore, that some further alteration should be made as to those particulars.
said, he drew perfectly opposite conclusions from those of the hon. gent. with respect to the word forthwith. Although that word was used in that particular clause, yet the time and manner in which the men were to be raised, was regulated by the subsequent clauses. It ought, to have been considered whether or not the chance of raising men was increased or diminished. It would somewhat surprise the house to understand, that the experience they had had of the army of reserve was exceedingly favourable towards the accomplishment of what was proposed by this bill. The total number required by the late act of parliament alluded to, was between 33,000 and 34,000 men. The number actually raised since that act passed, during last session, had been 31,758 men. There were, therefore, only about 2,000 deficient of the intended, number of the army of reserve in England. Was there then any other mode which could be adopted for the purpose of raising men with greater expedition? That deficiency arose from various causes. Of that number there had only been rejected and discharged as unfit 1,752, which was a sufficient answer to those who had stigmatized that measure as calculated only to collect the dregs of the country that would be unfit for service. The right hon. gent. stated also, that of that number there had been only 530 deaths, which was rather extraordinary considering that that measure also had been calculated to raise only the diseased and profligate. By the measure he proposed, all that was advantageous in the former measure would be preserved, while it put an end to the competition produced by crimps, of whom some gentlemen who were against great bounties were very fond. That the army of reserve system had not succeeded in London fully to their expectation, could be no serious argument against it, as it had succeeded in most other places. It was rather argument, indeed, he said, for applying a to remedy to the measure, where deficient, which the present bill went to do, but not for rejecting it. In the case of London, and, other such instances, it might be proper, perhaps, to adopt particular provisions calculated to meet the exigency. He could not see the force of the objection to the shortness of the time fixed, posterior to which the fines should be levied. Forty days he certainly thought sufficient. It was well known that the first exertions were generally marked with the greatest ardour. By delay, men become cool and indifferent, till their zeal totally evaporated. The penalties inflicted on individuals by the army of reserve, were of a much severer nature than any fine proposed now to be imposed. These severities the present bill went to remedy, while experience gave us the hope that men were to be had.
said, the right hon. gent. seemed to have adopted the opinions of the ancient Britons, who believed they succeeded to all the virtues of the enemy they killed; and therefore gave the house a history of the wonderful effects of the Army of Reserve bill, passed under the administration of his defeated antagonist. As to the high bounties, he observed, that if the memory of them could be entirely done away, the present measures might have a greater influence. It was necessary, therefore, to consider what effect the remembrance of high bounties might have, and the probable time in which the men could be raised, ere fines were imposed for delinquency. It was impossible to do sway that objection: the Army of Reserve bill was totally inapplicable to this one, which was new, and of which we had had no experience. The principles of the one were totally different from those of the other, and therefore it was improper to argue from what had been done, while we were considering what was to be done. In regard to the Army of Reserve, it was a fact, that the recruiting officers were often obliged to give way, because they could not get men; they were forced to take those who had been rejected by the regiments of the line. It was not therefore to be argued that the men raised were all good who were not rejected, because there had been a great number of them whom no officer would have taken, had he found means to procure better. As to the deaths which had occurred amongst them, there was no proportion which; under all the circumstances, could bear a comparison with thy ordinary bills of mortality. The inference to be drawn from the statement made by the right hon. gent. would be, that men procured in such a manner as they had been, the most infamous, the most diseased, and most debauched classes of people, were completely cured; and that a bounty of 30l. or 40l. to people of that description was favourable to human life. It was one of the objections to this bill, that crimps must be had recourse to as one of the modes to form the completion of the force proposed to be raised.
objected to the clause which empowers inspectors general to appoint persons to assist the deputy lieutenants in making their return. He said it gave an improper control over the deputy lieutenants, to whom thy country had infinite obligations.
objected to the interference of the inspector with that ancient office, the deputy, lieutenancy, so well known in this country in the early commissions of array. This person is introduced to control the deputy lieut. who had been a military officer. The name of a military inspector was improperly applied; he ought to be distinguished under the title of a military inquisitor.
said, that the hon. gent. was mistaken, as the inspector was assigned no judicial functions; those remained entire with the deputy lieut. The object of the inspector was not to interfere and to obstruct, but to relieve the deputy lieut. in the discharge of a difficult duty.
observed, that this inspector was to be sent down to intrude himself at the table of business in his character as an officer of the crown, and yet he is said not to possess any control. He is erected or degraded into the character of a spy and informer, and yet, it is said, he is to have no influence on their proceedings.
said, that he had long had the honour of acting in the capacity of deputy lieut. and instead of finding any officer of this description to interfere, he considered they ever accelerated the business of the public; and whether in the characters of adjutant-generals, or of inspectors, he had been always happy to receive their assistance.
declared, that of all the clauses of the present objectionable bill, there was none more so than that now under consideration. The deputy lieutenants were obliged to have a very important qualification from the county in which they acted; the misfortune was, that a serjeant, a corporal, or a private, in the character of inspector-gen. might be obtruded upon them, and upon the county, without any such qualification. The deputy lieut. would not be very much inclined to encourage such an intruder, and if this were the only impolitic clause, the error was so gross, and the evil so prominent, that it was sufficient to condemn the whole of the bill.
said, that when the noble lord declared that he had no stronger or more weighty objections to the whole of the bill, or to any clause of it, than he had to the present clause, he most sincerely gave him credit for his declaration, and he did not expect any more serious objection from him. The clause appeared to him so unobjectionable, that he was astonished when he saw that a second and a third hon. member had risen in the house to oppose it. One hon. and learned gent. (Mr. Jekyll), had divided his attack into three parts: 1st, he sheaved a great display of his antiquarian knowledge in informing the house that, in the ancient history of the country the deputies of array were very like our deputy lieutenants: 2dly, he attempted, in his usual style, a sort of epigram, by putting the word inquisitor instead of inspector. This epigrammic attempt, however well in familiar intercourse, did not appear to have been very successful in that house. In the 3d place, he concluded with an invective against him for a supposed aspersion on the deputy lieutenants. The gentlemen who so vehemently opposed this clause had forgotten that it was precisely the same as in another act of parliament had been past without opposition, or even observation. He could not help also referring to what had been said by a right hon. friend of his (Mr. Windham), who, alluding to the opinions of some barbarous nations, said, that they suppose they possessed all the virtues of the enemy they had vanquished. Now, that right hon. gent. appeared to have improved on that idea, and shown so much civilized generosity, that when he had vanquished an enemy, he saw nothing but merit in him; all that he had condemned before became virtues, and the hon. gent. appeared now partial to those things which he so warmly disapproved of a short time ago. The noble lord had made a supposition, which he thought was neither warranted in candour, or in common civility; namely, that an inspector-general might appoint his footman as a deputy to assist with the deputy lieutenants. Every body, however, knew that the choice which a man appointed by the crown to so high an office would probably make, would be of some experienced military officer, such as the proudest in the country, not even his lordship excepted, would not think himself disgraced by acting with.
declared that he could not by any means see that the lord-lieutenants would be insulted by admitting such a person to be present at their meetings, as he was only a spectator. For his part, he would not be afraid to let any person be in a room with him to examine his actions; he would admit every one; he would permit the whole world to scrutinize his conduct.
, on the reading of another clause, which states that a certain quota of men shall be raised in each parish according to its population under a certain penalty, proposed an amendment, purporting that a distinction should be made between those who have already supplied a great number towards the Army of Reserve, and those who have been considerably deficient, as he did not think that it would be fair to compel them equally, or levy a fine upon them equally alike.—He said, he was at a meeting of the justices for the county where he resided, and it was the general opinion that not a single man would be raised by the parishes, excepting in some insulated cases, where the unfortunate candidate for military life was either doomed to a jail, or a halter.
said, that parliament, by limiting the operation of the Army of Reserve act, had not entered into any contract, or bound themselves not to raise 9000 men in any other way, or even in that very way at any future period. That number of men was immediately wanting to supply the exigencies of the state, and was parliament to be supposed to have its hands tied so as to prevent them from raising them as equally all over the country, and as expeditiously, as the legislature could in its wisdom determine on?
objected to the returns made of men unfit for the service, and noticed an instance of one man who was considered disqualified because he was 50 instead of 48 years old, and of another, merely because he was unsightly, not that he could not see, but that he could not be seen by his officer with complacency.
, mentioned three instances of persons admitted who had ruptures, merely because they could act in a military capacity with the assistance of trusses; and this was passed over, although the oath required them to depose that the men were not subject to that complaint.
On the clause empowering commanding officers to discharge men, who might become unserviceable, after having been accepted and enrolled, being read;
rose to object to it. He said, this bill was not a levy, but a tax. It had been said, on many occasions, what is the first sinew of war? The answer was money. What is the second sinew? money. What is the third sinew? money. So with respect to this bill, it seemed not to be a levy, but a tax. Men did not seem to be the object, but money. He particularly objected to the commanding officer having a power to discharge men, without having, as in the case of the Militia and Army of Reserve, the concurrence of the deputy lieutenants.
said, the objections to the bill were so numerous, and so weighty, that it could hardly proceed. A power is given to the commanding officer to discharge the men sent by the parishes, which was equivalent to enabling that officer to impose a fine; and he inquired if it were consistent with the prudence of the house to enable a military officer, by this political expedient, to levy a tax upon the British, people?
said, it was a mistake to suppose that the commander, in discharging a man, would act arbitrarily or rapaciously; he was bound to act in conformity to the regulations to be made by his Majesty's orders, and they would be as precise in this case as in any part of the regular service. It was the interest as well as the duty of the commander to act in uniformity to such orders. It was the interest of the executive government, take care that the orders were right. The parishes had all possible security against any abuse of power. They were not fined in the 1st instance at all on the discharge of a man. In the 2d they were allowed to provide another, and that at the limited bounty. They had a month allowed them for that purpose. If they found a fit man in that time, no fine at all attached on them. If they did not, the commander was to recruit for a man, and then the fine of 20l. attached; but even after this, if the parish found a proper man, three-fourths of the fine would be remitted to them; so that this measure was as lenient as possible, consistently with the idea of a fine; and without a fine there was no security for enforcing the bill. He took occasion to observe, that the bounty under this bill was to be three-fourths of the bounty for the line. The war bounty for the line was not to exceed sixteen guineas, and, there-fore the bounty under this bill would be twelve guineas instead of 7l. 10s as many gentlemen, had apprehended.
did not imagine a house of commons could be satisfied with such an answer. "You give," says the minister, "to military officers the power to impose a tax upon the people, but it is to be presumed it will not be the subject of abuse." It was not consistent with the duty of members of that house to repose this dangerous confidence.
contended, it was the interest of the army to inflict the fine upon the parishes. By the parochial regulation 7l. or 10l. was to be paid by the overseers for recruits, but if the officer would not admit this candidate for the ranks, he (the officer) was to have 20l. from the parish to supply the vacancy; and to use the words of a noble lord, a much less unsightly man might be obtained for this extravagant bounty.
combatted this opinion and insinuated that Mr. Sheridan had read the bill by proxy, and hence accounted for his misapprehension of the clause.
, in reply, assured the right hon. gent. that he was quite erroneous in his opinion. He had read the bill, not by proxy, but with the best care which he could bestow on it. He had only to express a wish that the right hon. gent. had defended the bill by proxy, in which case the arguments of his friends would have had a stronger impression upon the house.
said that the bill was absolutely incorrigible: the parochial scheme was absurd and contradictory. To show the probability of disputes between these inspectors and the deputy-lieutenants, he mentioned an anecdote respecting a strong young healthy recruit in the county he represented. He received under the army of reserve bill a bounty of about 50 guineas; the consequence was, that he was in a constant state of debauchery for a considerable time; one evening, dead drunk, he lay in the road exposed to a heavy rain; a violent inflammation of his eyes ensued, and he lost one of them entirely. In this situation he was rejected by the inspector, whose determination was resisted by the deputy-lieut. This might be considered one of those unsightly cases within the meaning of the noble lord. The hon. gent. concluded with observing, that the burthen thrown on the parishes under the present bill would be severe, and would ultimately fall on the landed interest of the country.—The remaining clauses of the bill were then gone through, and, the Speaker having resumed the chair, the report of the committee was ordered to be brought up to-morrow. Adjourned.