brought up the report of the committee on the bill for better providing for the national defence. The amendments were read a first time, and on the motion that they be read a second time,

said, that having already trespassed on the house, by delivering his sentiments on the general principles of the bill, for the present he should only take the liberty of going as shortly as possible into the general detail of its clauses. He considered the mode by which this bill proposed to recruit the public force to be unconstitutional, oppressive, and generally obnoxious to the people; that if it passed into a law, it would have the effect of entailing upon the country a permanent standing army, and consequently an enormous and perpetual burthen of expense which the country would be unable to bear. In the whole of the arguments which had been adduced in support of the bill, under its successive discussions, he had heard not one to shake his opinion on these points. Much was said of strong measures: he begged to call the attention of the rt. hon. chancellor of the exchequer to a strong measure proposed in the year 1784, the rejection of which proved his first introduction to office. Sure he was, that if the principle of that strong measure had been then adopted by parliament, many millions would have been saved to this country, which have since been squandered. But that question was one widely different in its importance from the present: the strong measure of 1784 affected only the privileges of eight persons: it was a question merely whether there should be 16 or 24 India directors; but the present measure went to involve and to subvert the constitution itself: it was dangerous in the extreme, and tended directly to induce all the mischief he had stated. When he recollected how, upon a former night, he had heard the rt. hon. gent. panegyrize and support the proposition for the army of reserve bill, he naturally expected he would have preferred that measure to the one which he now brought forward. But though the right hon. gent's. predecessor had candidly and manfully called upon the unanimous vigour and exertion of the country, in the hour of danger, and was promptly answered by the universal spirit of the nation, he had not proposed to burthen the country with an establishment so obnoxious to the spirit, and so dangerous to the liberties of Englishmen, as a permanent standing army. But it was not merely upon its unconstitutional tendency he objected to the bill. He farther objected to it that it would go to impose a tax upon landed property of 3 millions per annum. The chief perfection attributed to the bill, by its supporters, was merely that it would obviate the ballot; but then the alternative would be an impost upon numberless parishes which the inhabitants in general would not be able to pay, and he begged to call it to the attention of gentlemen who had been active in carrying the militia laws into effect, whether the natural consequence of this measure must not be a heavy additional tax upon landed property. Another mischief of this bill would be to do away the exclusions granted by the former bill, and of which there was no mention made in this. It was a remarkable circumstance that this was the first measureé of the right hon. gent. from whom a great deal was expected. But it was necessary to tell that right hon. gent. that the house looked for something very different. They looked for the performance of that promise, which he had held out to Ireland; and the inability to perform which, at one time, was the alleged cause of his retirement from office. His first object now, therefore, ought to be to do away the necessity of keeping a large military force in Ireland; to convert to more useful purposes the 28,000 men who were now stationed as sentinels over the people of Ireland. Let him conciliate and reclaim the affections of those people, and then there would be no occasion for a great army to keep them in subjection. The affections of a people were the surest means to support and strengthen a government, and not a standing army. He thought it necessary to mention to the house, that there would be a considerable difficulty in filling up the standing army, from the limited force, by the mode in which the men belonging to that force were enlisted. He would mention one circumstance which came within his own knowledge. In the Tower Hamlets militia, there were hardly ten men who served personally. They were almost all substitutes, who had engaged to serve for 5 years, or during the war. They had already served 5 years; but as the war was not over, they could not obtain their discharge. They applied for it, and it would not be granted. They considered themselves as serving, not for his Majesty, but as substitutes for the parochial in habitants; and they thought themselves entitled either to their discharge, or to a renewal of the bounty. Several constituents of his, who were privates in that regiment, had applied lately for their discharge, with a view of getting into a more extended service; and if that could not be obtained, they required a renewal of the bounties. The first man who made the application was taken up, tried by a court martial, and sentenced to receive 300 lashes. By his intercession, however, and that of some of his friends, the man's punishment was remitted, by taking away 295 from the 300 lashes. He mentioned this circumstance, to show how difficult it was to get men even for the regular army. He concluded with giving his decided opposition to the bill.

said he could not listen to an assertion made by the hon. gent. who spoke last, without rising to give it a positive denial. He denied that there were 28,000 troops in Ireland placed as sentinels over the people there: nor were the affections of the people alienated from the govt. He knew the very contrary to be the fact. He had lived in Ireland from his infancy; he was acquainted with the sentiments of the people; and, whatever disaffection might at one time have, prevailed among them, he could now say that their disposition was totally changed. He thought it unnecessary at that time to trouble the house with giving his reasons for what he said; but the house might depend on it the fact was so. He would further assert, that if the French were to effect a landing in Ireland, they would find themselves in an enemy's country, whatever part of it they came to. They would not find the minds of any one of the people favourable to their views. The insurrection which took place on the 23d of July, did not put him out of conceit with this opinion. He was certain that the extreme parts of Ireland had no more to do with that rebellion than they had to do with the rebellion of Colonel Despair.—The house then proceeded to divide upon the question, when there appeared—Ayes, 63; Noes, 69; Majority against the second reading of the amendments, 6.

After the division, and during the exclusion of strangers,

objected to the numbers declared, as the majority was composed, in his opinion, of gentlemen who had not been in the house at the time when the question was put, nor heard what little debate occurred, but rushed into the house merely to give their votes, and took their adversaries by a surprise which he deemed unfair. He appealed to Mr. Fox to say, whether he was not himself of that number?

replied, that he was unconscious of, and far from being a party to any unfair advantage being taken; but he candidly owned that he had been some time out of the house; and, in the confusion the house was in, when the question was called for, by the number of members, who, on such occasions, usually were called away from the refreshments they might be taking, he could not take upon him to say positively whether he was or was not in the house at the moment it was put from the chair.

declared, that he could take upon him to say there were at least six other members who entered the house after Mr. Fox, and who could not therefore have heard the question put; for which reason he submitted whether the question had been fairly decided upon. Upon this a conversation ensued, (the members sitting, and speaking, according to the custom of parliament in such cases, with their hats on) the result of which was that the Speaker admitted the right of any member to vote who came in before the division, and time enough to be counted; the consequence of which was, a majority of six against the amendments being now read a second time.

then moved, "that the amendments be read a second time on this day three months."

rose in support of the bill. He contended, that it had in it every advantage that could be desired at this moment. Some gentlemen said, it would not recruit the regular army; in answer to them, he would refer to the time, when the English militate had volunteered their services for Ireland, and when several regiments went to Holland. These two remarkable events must convince any man, that we could always get men to enter into the regular army, from our limited force, whenever it should be necessary. A right hon. gent. had observed, that men would not enter into the regiments of the line, to which their battalions were attached, because they might dislike some of the officers. So far was he from entertaining such an opinion, that he was convinced men would enter from the very contrary motive. From the experience he had in military affairs, he knew that soldiers were in the habit rather of entertaining a partiality, than a dislike, for officers; and if they had a dislike, he knew the forgiving temper of a soldier to be such, that even a sentiment of dislike would not prevent him from entering a regiment. He wished to impress upon the house one quality which belonged to this bill; it was that of its tending to ameliorate our defensive force. Officers of experience were to command the force to be raised by this bill, and that would add considerably to the strength of our home defence, and enable govt. to employ the regular force of the country on the continent, whenever an opportunity should offer for co-operating with any of the powers of Europe against France. The plan of recruiting laid down in this bill was certainly the best mode that could be adopted for recruiting the army. All other modes appeared to him to be objectionable in time of war. It had, beside, another material advantage; and that was; the doing away the ballots; so far from being a burthen, he considered it an alleviation of burthens on the landed interest. It therefore met with his cordial approbation.—(A loud cry of "question! question!")

said, it was a very material object to increase the regular force of the country; and it appeared to be the wish of all sides to do so, to the greatest possible extent. The necessity of it was fully admitted; and the question was which was the best mode of promoting that object? If the regular army could be increased at all by this bill, it must be by a very slow progress, by that kind of double distillation which a right hon. gent. had mentioned. When it was contended that some strong measure was necessary, a measure should have been adopted adequate to the force of that necessity. If the danger was great, and the necessity strong, he thought some other measure should have been resorted to besides the present bill, which he was sure, would fail completely in accomplishing the object for which it was intended. By one clause of this bill, the parish officer was authorized to give only three-fourths of the sum allowed as the ordinary bounties for recruiting; but the commanding officer had the power of giving the whole of the sum. This regulation would at once put an end to recruiting in the manner proposed. Men would not enlist with parish officers, who could give but 15l. when they could get 20l. from the commanding officer. Then the parishes must pay this fine of 20l. if they could not get the men. They certainly would never be able to get them on such terms, for men would always consult their own interest, and wait for the largest bounty. Another objection he had to this bill, was the double bounty men would receive, if they entered into the line; no man would enter into the regular army, without first passing through this army of reserve, because of the double bounty he should receive. It was not, therefore, to be expected that men could be procured for the regular army, except by a very slow process; and the measure could produce no benefit; but it would be highly injurious to the landed interest, upon which the fines laid on parishes must ultimately fall. (A loud call for the question.)

said, that without precluding himself from the opportunity of delivering his sentiments at a future period upon this bill; he hoped he might now be permitted to say a few words, in order to set the hon. gent. who just sat down right upon one topic which he had advanced. He had rested one of his objections to this bill on a supposition, that if parish officers should not be able to find men for a given sum, the recruiting officers would be enabled to give a larger sum. And from this he drew a conclusion, that parochial recruiting would be rendered completely ineffectual. If the hon. gent. would take the trouble to look in page 13 of the bill, he would there find, that so far from its containing such a regulation, the recruiting officer could only give such proportion of the 20l. fine as was fixed as the stated bounty by his Majesty's regulation. This very amendment had been made in the bill on the preceding day: and the hon. gent. would, on the present day, have heard it read, were it not for the accidental vote which recently took place, and which threw a temporary interruption in the way of the progress of the bill.

said, he defied any gent. to show one tenable argument against the second reading of the amendments, or any reason why they should be put off for 3 months, the effect of which would certainly be the loss of the bill. The amendments, in fact, which were now objected to, made the bill better than it was before. It was said this bill would operate as a heavy charge on the landed interest. He would say, for himself, that his property chiefly consisted in land; that he had applied his mind to the subject of the landed interest; and he now wished to know what plan of national defence could be devised which must not impose a burden on the landed interest? The plan would be no more a burden than any other; but it would confer a great benefit on the country; it would be conferring a boon on the country by freeing it from the hardships occasioned by ballots. He wished gentlemen to see what a ballot was. It was neither more nor less than an infringement on the liberty of the subject; and he wished to ask those gentlemen, who had talked so often and so much about liberty, whether there was liberty, justice, or equality, in forcing a poor man to serve as a soldier, when the rich man, by a sum of money which he did not value, could exempt himself from service by procuring a substitute, or paying a fine? As to the objection against recruits being raised by parochial officers, he must say that no men appeared to him better calculated to perform such a duty than they; because they knew better than most people could do, the characters of the people in their parishes.—On the preceding day it had been objected to one of the clauses of the bill, that military officers were to be sent down to assist at the meeting of the deputy lieutenants. So far from this being an objectionable proceeding, he must say, that having often acted as a deputy lieutenant, he, and others who acted with him, were always happy to have along with them a military officer, from whom they could receive information. He would venture to assert, that no one plan had yet been offered that would fall so lightly, or be so little objectionable as the present.

said, he was ready to admit, that this Measure Could not, in a short time, make any considerable addition to the regular force of the country; but it was not the object of the bill to do so immediately. Its object was to raise second battalions, which were to be attached to battalions of the line, into which the men belonging to them might be induced to enter. It could not now be the object of govt. to increase all of a sudden the regular disposable force of the country. There was no necessity to do so; for, in the present degraded state of Europe, there was no hope that any of the continental powers would co-operate with us in a continental war against France. The object was, to raise a force that might add to our standing army whenever occasion should require so to do. Now he wished to direct the attention of the house to one great benefit arising our of this bill; and that was the doing away the ballots, which exposed the poor to great hardships. It was one of the severest lots to which the poor had been subject. With regard to the objections made against standing armies, he believed a reference to the history of this country would show that England had often been exposed to great danger from the want of standing armies. And if the constitutional jealousy of Englishmen against standing armies had not been carried too fir, the country might now have had a complete regular army, fit for every purpose of offensive or defensive operations. Considering the enemy we had to contend with, it was necessary we should have a regular permanent force in the country. That enemy would watch his opportunity, and take his own time to attack us; and he would most assuredly avail himself of the first moment he found us disbanding our army, or diminishing our force.—It had also been objected, that parish officers would, be converted into crimps by this bill; and it was said that they could not obtain men without the assistance of crimps. He would answer, that parish officers, who knew the habits of the people in their parishes, would stand a better chance of procuring men than even recruiting officers, against whom the people always entertained a jealousy. They were surely the most eligible persons to be resorted to, unless they abused their power, and if they did, the courts of justice were open to the injured parties. He would ask whether it was possible, by simple recruiting, to get a large force in a short time? And if it was, be would ask, why was it necessary to pass the army of reserve act last year? Let the present experiment he tried as a less objectionable mode; and if it tailed, the ordinary business of recruiting still continued open, as it had done before. By the present plan, great bounties were to be done away, and more men were likely to be procured. No assertion could be more unjust than that this bill would operate as a trap to get men into the line. He was confident no such attempt would be made. With respect to the hardships said to be imposed on parish others, he had to observe, that when every thing dear and valuable in the country was to be protected, it could not be unreasonable to give to parish officers the additional duty of contributing towards the means of national defense (here there was a cry of "question," and the hon. member was interrupted by the coughing of several other members).—The hon. gent. concluded with giving it as his opinion, that the plan contained in the present bill was the best mode that could be adopted for increasing the regular force of the country hereafter.

supported the bill on the principle that it repealed the ballot, and removed the necessity of those expensive subscriptions, by means of which the country people endeavoured to diminish the burthen of it last year. The bounty and the fine would produce exertion. He wished well to the bill from his respect to the mover of it, and whatever regret he might have for not seeing him supported by a more general co-operation, however desirous he might be to see party spirit for once totally sacrificed to the cause of the country, and a glorious example of unanimity given to future ages, he could not agree to the length that those went who thought that no change had taken place in his Majesty's councils. He was not one of those who could think lightly of such an acquisition. He was not one of those who could so soon forget the high encomiums so recently passed upon that right hon. gent. by many of those who were now his most inveterate opponents. He could not so soon forget the loud calls from those opponents, both in that house and in another place, for the aid of that rt. hon. gent's talents for the salvation of his country at so perilous a moment. He could not so soon forget the eager applause with which the right hon. gent's first proposition for this bill was received, by those who now decried it. When he considered his great and transcendent talents, he was not without the best hopes. He believed the right hon. gent. had the best wishes of the country; he was sure he had his, (The question was again loudly called for.)

contended that the bill was unconstitutional, in reducing the militia and augmenting the regular army, at the same time, so as to destroy their former proportion to each other. It was impossible to look at the possible consequences of this without apprehension. The house was bound to be jealous on this subject; and to prevent the approach to such a state of things as this threatened, in which the house would no longer have power to counteract the evil. This force would wholly be in the power of the executive government, being officered in an unconstitutional manner, contrary to the principle on which the militia is officered. His objection to this measure was the greater, because it was not necessary. If the danger and extremity of the times called for it, all considerations must give way to that necessity. But it was not so. He admitted the French to be powerful in an unexampled degree. But would any mail now say we were not prepared for all their exertions? Have we not been called upon to make preparations proportioned to the danger, and has the nation been backward to do so? But if we were in a situation to repel every attempt of the enemy, and he believed that would not be denied, there was no excuse for the sacrifice of a great constitutional principle. This was not the time for such sacrifice. No necessity could be urged for a measure so replete with danger.

wished it to be remembered, that on the original disclosure of this measure the sense of the house was strongly for it. Since that time the disposition in favour of it had increased, and it had been carried with augmented appearances of approbation into a committee. No objection had been made to the provisions of the bill in the committee, but an unforeseen opposition had been made this day to the second reading of the amendments, when gentlemen had not expected it. He would not say now what was the description that should be given of that proceeding, but if he was in a place in which he was formerly conversant, he should call it sharp practice. In consequence of gaining a very small and a very accidental advantage, the hon. gent. opposite had taken advantage on the spur of the occasion, without any arguments, to propose, that the amendments may be read this day three months. He was sure he was addressing many whose feelings were adverse to the principle of the bill; but he was sure that every conscientious man must be dissatisfied with the manner in which this question was brought forward, He was sure the postponement of the second reading of the amendments would not be allowed to be a fair mode of getting rid of the bill.

rose, when the house were again loudly calling, for the question, and said, that he appealed to the house, whether or not they were acting according to the general custom. He called on older members to determine, if it was not contrary to the practice of the House of Commons to admit of such a motion, after the bill had been allowed to pass through so many of its stages.—

said, he rose to speak to order. The question was, that the amendments on this bill be read a second time on this day 3 months. The hon. gent. could not, upon that question, give the history of a former division in the house.—

said, that the hon. gent. was at liberty to advert to a former division, stating it as an argument for his present vote.

then repeated what he had said respecting the former division, and said, he had done with that subject. As to the question before the house—

rose to order. He said, unless the house meant to say, that the speaker was unworthy of his station, unless all regard to order was laid aside, the house could not permit the hon. gent. to proceed—

rose to speak to order. The hon. and learned gent. had chosen his time to interrupt his hon. friend, with peculiar felicity and sagacity. He had declared he had done with the subject, before the hon. and learned gent. rose; while he was on that subject, he was allowed by the learned gent. to proceed; but when he says, "as to the question before the house," then the learned member thinks it time to get up to speak to order.

said, he never would be so much the tool of a party as to speak against time. Therefore, he added, let us come to the question at once. (The question was here most violently called for.)

said, he could never consent to go to a division, without adverting to the extraordinary manner in which the question on which the house was to divide, was introduced. He would appeal to the experience of the oldest member in the house, and call upon him to declare, whether a similar attempt was ever made? whether it was not contrary to all rule, such as is understood and practiced for the Convenience of the house? The house was taken by surprise—

said, this was unparliamentarily language, and he could not permit the hon. gent. to proceed with it.

said, he could not consent that the question should go to a division without shewing why the bill ought not to be lost; and it was his object to prove that the sense of the house had not been against it. On all sides it was allowed that there was a necessity for increasing the regular army; and the only point was, whether this bill provided the best means. He maintained it did, by first inviting the recruits into a limited service. But it had been said, that the men thus raised would not be good and proper soldiers. He wished experience to be resorted to for the answer to that. The troops in the regular army, drawn from the army of reserve, were a sufficient proof of the fallacy of that assertion. It was said the bill would impose an additional duty on the magistrates. But it was forgotten that it would relieve them from the immense labour of the army of reserve; from all the painful duties of the ballots, where they continually beheld the distress and misery that compulsory mode brought on thousands. He had thought the ballots necessary at the time, but that necessity no longer existed, and therefore the poor, on whom they fell heavily, should be released from them. He believed the bill would be received as a boon to the country. It removed high bounties, and the miseries of the ballot. When the right hon. gent first opened his plan during the last administration, then was the time for the objections now made. Why were they not heard then? And why heard now? He must not state the motives, but he must suppose them to be extraordinary, such, indeed, as he must not allude to. He hoped the bill would pass; he was sure it would afford general satisfaction, and should therefore move as an amendment, that the words, "Monday next," be substituted for the words, "this day three months."

said, he could not give his vote without assigning the reasons for what he should do. He agreed with the hon. gentlemen who opposed the bill on the nature of its principle; and though he could not vote with them, yet he reserved his right to oppose the bill on the third reading. But he could not consent to treat this question as it had been by the hon. gent. (Mr. Grey). It was not a fair, a manly proceeding. He would have the bill condemned on its own faults, and trusted that it could be so.

observed, that a proper example had just been given them by an hon. bart., not to be parties to so unfair a proceeding as this proposed to them to dispose of the bill. Another gent. who always acted and spoke from the fullness of his heart, had said, he would not be so much a tool as to speak against time for any party. No person doubted the hon. gent.'s integrity But how could he reconcile to himself then, a proceeding such as the hon. bart. stated this to be, and as the house felt it to be? An hon. gent. had actually argued against the clause in the bill, as it stood in one printed copy, but which, was afterwards amended, and the amendment removed the very objection of the hon. gent. Was not this a sufficient ground to induce all the hon. members opposite to give gentlemen the opportunity of hearing and examining the amendments? It had been stated that this bill would bear hard upon the landed property. A number of gentlemen of great landed property were on his right hand and his left, the friends of the bill. They were capable of judging. Why do they conspire to injure themselves? He maintained, that a very little candid examination would prove all objections to the bill to be groundless.

was of opinion that such a proceeding as the present had never taken place on any former occasion. It might perhaps be consistent with order, but he was sure it would be considered by the country as disgraceful and contemptible—(A loud and general cry of order! order! chair! chair!)

decided, that in applying such epithets to any proceedings of that house, the hon. member had been highly disorderly.

moved that the hon. member's words be taken down.

declared himself, on being corrected from the chair, ready to apologies to the house for having transgressed the limits of order. The hon. member then took a view of the different plans that had been proposed for augmenting our military force, and concluded by giving his preference to the present; observing, however, that it would necessarily bear heavy on the landed interest, as every measure of the kind unavoidably would; but that it also afforded a good prospect of obtaining men, which would enable us to start fairly with our men and money. The cry for the question was here renewed from various parts of the house, and in the midst of a loud exclamation for the division,

rose. He observed upon the hope that seemed to be entertained by the gentlemen on the other side, that they should no this occasion be able to obtain that object by silence which they had been unable to obtain by argument, for of the latter they had offered nothing to justify the motion which they called upon the house to adopt. This mode of proceeding, however, be considered as a stratagem belonging to the second campaign for the removal of a minister; for that was the object which those gentlemen had in view, after a momentary success in consequence of hurrying the house to a division at an unexpected hour (a general laugh on the opposition benches). Gentlemen appeared to triumph in this accident; but they would, he had no doubt, find themselves disappointed in the object of their endeavours. They used no argument, because they had none to offer; nor were they desirous to seek any. Their purpose was manifest. They determined to oppose any measure the minister might propose, because they had an anxious wish to remove him; because they wanted to produce a second change in his majesty's councils, and to suspend the executive government, perhaps for two months more. An hon. gent. (Mr. Fuller) had said, that he would never lend himself to be a tool to any party to speak for time; but he was convinced, by his conduct, that that hon. gent. seemed disposed to lend himself to promote the views of a party—

rose to order, disclaiming any party view in his conduct, and professing himself a friend to the chancellor of the exchequer.

complained of the honourable gent. having interrupted him, by a call to order, without having stated how, in any manner, he had violated order.

said, that the hon. gent. had imputed motives to him, which was an un-parliamentary proceeding.

stated, that it certainly was not within the strict line of order to impute motives to any gentlemen. Such deviation, however, was not uncommon, and he hoped therefore, he should stand excused in not having before interrupted the hon. gent.

said, that excepting through a consideration for the quarter from which the opinion proceeded, he should not have deemed it correct (a cry of chair! chair!) The hon. gent. resumed, that he believed, according to the practice of the house, it never was deemed disorderly to attribute to gentlemen in opposition a wish to dispossess ministers, and it did not appear that the gentlemen on the other side were disposed to feel disturbed at having it imputed to them. However, as the chair had established this rule, he hoped it would be applied equally to all sides of the house. The hon. gent. asserted, that those who supported the army of reserve bill were perfectly consistent in voting for the present measure, while the latter was peculiarly calculated to reconcile those to whom the ballot and the high bounties produced by the former were so objectionable. When two plans were under consideration, framed by different administrations, without any very important difference between them, that had the preference which was proposed by the persons actually in power, since they would be responsible for the execution of it With respect to the plan of raising men for rank, as proposed by the late minister, the measure before the house would not preclude the present ministers from having recourse to that expedient, should it appear to be necessary.—After a loud call for the question, the house divided, when there appeared, for the amendment 214; for Mr. Grey's motion 185—Majority 29. Adjourned.