House of Commons
Thursday, June 28 1804
Minutes
A new writ was ordered on the motion of Mr. S. Bourne, for the election of a burgess for the borough of Monmouth, in the room of Lord C. Somerset, who had accepted the place of Joint Paymaster of his Majesty's Forces.—Sir W. Geary presented a petition from certain proprietors of hop grounds in the county of Kent, against the late duty on hops. Ordered to lie on the table.—A message from the Lords informed the house that their lordships had agreed to the English Additional Force bill, without any amendment, and had passed a bill for dissolving the marriage of R. Tighe, Esq. in which they desired the concurrence of the house.—Mr. Rose moved the 3d reading of the Liverpool Prize Goods bill. Mr. Plummer attended as counsel for certain Merchants of the city of London, petitioners against the bill, and urged a number of arguments against passing the bill into a law. Mr. Rose briefly replied to the arguments of the learned gent. after he had withdrawn; and the bill was then read a 3d time, and passed without farther opposition.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed, with the permission of the house, to defer his notice of a motion relative to the Civil List and the stamp duties, which stood for to-morrow, in the committee of Supply to Monday next; and as he was on his legs, he availed himself of the opportunity of stating, that, as the greater part of the private business had been already gone through, he proposed to proceed with the public business in future, as soon after four o'clock as possible.—Mr. Corry moved, that there be laid before the house an account of the cash balances in the hands of the Collectors of Customs and Excise respectively in Ireland, on the 5th of Jan. 1804, together with the amount thereof remaining in their hands on the 14th of Jan. following, as certified by the Clerk of the Revenue to the Treasury of Ireland. Ordered.—Mr. Smith, from the Treasury in Ireland, afterwards presented the account at the bar, which was ordered to lie on the table; and on the motion of Mr. Corry, to be printed. Mr. Corry then gave notice, that he should, on Wednesday next submit a motion to the house on the subject of that paper.—Mr. Princep moved, that there be laid before the house, an Account of the annual estimated amount of costs and charges on, and the sale amount of the East India Company's Sales in England, from the 1st of March, 1799, to the 1st of March, 1804, distinguishing East India from China goods. Ordered.—The Foreign Troops' Enlistment bill, was read a 2d time, to be committed to-morrow.—The house went into a committee on the report of the committee on Expiring Laws. Report to be received to-morrow.—On the motion of Mr. Rose, a new writ was ordered for the election of a burgess in the room of the right hon. J. C. Villiers, who had accepted the place of Prothonotary of the Common Pleas, in the County Palatine of Lancaster.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee on his Majesty's message, for granting an annuity of 1200l, to Viscountess Kilwarden, &c. to commence from the 23d of July last. The resolutions were agreed to, and a bill ordered pursuant thereto.—Mr. W. Dickenson gave notice, that he should, on Monday next, move the additional navy estimates in the committee of supply.—The Irish Customs and Excise Duty bill was read a 2d time. To be committed to-morrow.—Mr. Foster moved for leave to bring in a bill to appoint commissioners to inquire into all fees, gratuities, perquisites, and emoluments that are or have been received in the public offices in Ireland to be therein mentioned, to examine into the abuses existing therein, to report their opinion to the house, and the present mode of collecting, issuing, and accounting for the public monies in Ireland. Leave given.
Conduct of Judge Fox
A petition of William Armstrong, John Fausset, Noble Weir, James Frith, Patrick Dundas, Hugh Dundas, John Fiddis, William Graydon, George Sproul, John Cooke, George Moore, and James Moore, all of the county of Fermanagh, was presented to the house by Colonel Cole, and read; setting forth, "that the petitioners were sworn upon a petit jury at the last summer assizes held at Enniskillen, in and for the county of Fermanagh, to try three persons of the names of John Fletcher, Hugh Keys, and James Sharpe, for the murder of one Nicholas Morris; end that the principal witnesses produced on the part of the crown, to prove the said crime against the persons charged, were Cormick Maguire and James M'Nab, two persons whose characters were well known to the petitioners, and to most of the persons in their neighborhood who usually compose the petit Jury; and that rewards had been offered by the government of the country, by proclamation, and by the gentlemen of the county, to an amount of nearly 800l. for prosecuting to conviction any of the persons concerned in the said murder; notwithstanding which, several months had elapsed before any information was given relative thereto by the said M'Nab and Maguire, or any person whatsoever; and that the said M'Nab and Maguire, induced by the said reward (as the petitioners think they have a right to presume), came forward, and made examinations against the persons aforesaid; and, on the said trial, on which the petitioners were the jury, proved that they were in a field at some distance from the place where the murder was committed, at the time when the same was perpetrated; and that when the persons who perpetrated the same were beating and battering with sticks and stones the said deceased Nicholas Morris, they, the said witnesses, had heard the deceased call upon the prisoners (who were so tried by the petitioners) by name, not to kill him, and that they heard other words pass from the deceased; but neither they, nor any witness for the crown, identified the prisoners as having been present, either from face or voice; and that it appeared to the petitioners, that none of the said prisoners had fled for or on account of the said murder; that they had been admitted to bail at the preceding assizes, and had surrendered in discharge of their bail, and each of the said prisoners gave most respectable testimony of their good moral and religious character; and that the petitioners considered themselves under the blessed constitution under which they live, and which they have armed to support and defend, as the judges not only of the matter of fact which they were sworn to try, but the credit of the witnesses produced to prove that fact; and that the hon. judge Fox, who presided on that trial, after recapitulating the evidence to them, charged them very strongly to find the prisoners guilty; and that when the petitioners had retired to their room, and came to weigh the evidence, and the credit of the witnesses, they were of opinion that the evidence was not entitled to such credit from them, nor was there such certainty in their account as to justify a verdict of guilty, and their taking away the lives of three men; and that the petitioners are ready to lay a note of the evidence before parliament, to justify their verdict, if they are permitted to do so; and that when the petitioners delivered their verdict, the said honourable judge expressed much dissatisfaction thereat; and that on the next morning, when the court was full, the said honourable judge Fox called on the clerk of the crown to furnish him with a list of the names of the petitioners, which having received, he caused the whole of the grand inquest of the county, then sworn, and sitting in their room on the public business, to be called into the court-house, when, in the face of the whole county, the said hon. judge Fox stigmatized the petitioners as men not worthy to be believed on their oaths, and as unfit ever again to act in the capacity of jurors, and cautioned the said grand jury and others never thereafter to hold communion or intercourse with them; that he ordered the clerk of the crown to deliver in a list of their names to every succeeding judge, as men unfit to be jurors, that they might prevent their serving as such thereafter; and that he ordered the high and under sheriff to deliver a list of the names to the succeeding sheriff, with a direction to hand them down from sheriff to sheriff, as branded with the infamy of a verdict, which was for ever to render them unworthy of credit, and ordered that their names should be publicly posted up as such in the grand jury room; and that the petitioners, though not men of large estates, are men of substance, and have heretofore enjoyed not only good, but they think they may may add high characters for honesty and integrity among their neighbours, and in the county in general, an inheritance more dear to them to hand unsullied to their children, than any adventitious gift of fortune; and that, valuing their characters above all human enjoyments, they have felt debased in their own eyes, until they shall have had a public investigation of their conduct, and reparation for what they conceive to be the greatest of all possible injuries; and therefore praying the house to take the premises into their consideration, and permit the petitioners to prove the same at the bar of the house, and thereupon to afford such satisfaction to the petitioners, as the justice and merits of their case, and the conduct of the said judge to them, may entitle them, and as to the house shall seem meet."—Ordered to lie upon the table.
Counterfeit Dollars' Bill
moved, that the Counterfeit Dollars' bill be committed.
rose to correct a mistake which had been made, with regard to what he had said on this subject on a former occasion. What he had said was, that a great quantity of French coin had circulated under this denomination; but he never meant to say, that the Bank encouraged this circulation: and this explanation would, he hoped, satisfy those who had been uneasy on the subject. These counterfeit dollars might fall into the bankers' hands while they were ignorant of it. The bill was then committed, and the report ordered to-morrow.
Insolvent Debtors' Bill
brought up the report of the Committee on the bill for the relief of Insolvent Debtors. On the motion that the amendments be read a second time,
said, that considering the difference of the present time, and the period when 10l. was fixed as the lowest sum for which a person could be bailed, he thought it too small. There were many persons who lived in prisons in a state of luxury, when their creditors were in need of the very money they were squandering. Such individuals ought to be forced to surrender their property, or to make it appear in proof that they were possessed of none.—The amendments were then read, and the bill ordered to be engrossed, and read a third time to-morrow.
Corn Trade Bill
moved the order of the day for the second reading of the Corn Export and Import Regulation bill. The hon. gent. assured the house, that it was his intention to move the commitment of this bill this day, in order to have the blanks filled preparatory to its being printed, and that the recommitment was to be fixed for Monday next.
observed, that it was improper to urge forward a matter of this importance with too great haste; he also objected to the principle of the bill.
observed, that the bill might be ready for being delivered to the members on Saturday.
contended, that still the time between Saturday and Monday was too limited for the consideration of a bill of this importance.
hoped the report would be put off till Monday se'nnight, and declared that he thought it of so much importance, that he would divide the house upon it.—When the house was about to divide on this question,
proposed that the report should be received on Tuesday, which might accommodate all parties. There would probably, on Monday, be so much business, that on that day there would scarcely be sufficient time to discuss it. This was agreed to, and the report was ordered to be received on Tuesday next.
Exchequer Bills
The house went into a committee on the Exchequer Bills' bill.
desired to know what quantity of Exchequer bills it was the intention of govt. to issue by virtue of this bill. The amount of Exchequer bills already in the market, was so great, that they were at a discount; and he submitted whether it would be prudent, under such circumstances, to enhance this evil by a further issue until the number already in the market should be diminished.
could not inform the hon. gent. of the precise amount that it might be necessary to issue, but proposed to issue from time to time Exchequer bills to the full amount of the estimated produce of the war taxes. It was impossible at this moment to say, how far the immediate returns from the taxes would be adequate to any demands that might arise, or to ascertain what might be the pressure of the demands; and on the result of these two considerations would necessarily depend the amount of the bills to be issued. It would, however, be satisfactory to the hon. gent. to know that these bills would not be like the Exchequer bills which were kept in the market from year to year, but would be issued on the credit of a fund which must, sooner or later, produce the means of discharging them. The hon. gent. must also have been aware, that the discount on Exchequer bills, to which he had adverted, was considerably reduced.—The bill then passed through the committee, and on the house being resumed, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
Irish Stamp Duty Bill
The house resolved itself into a committee on the Irish Stamp Duty bill.
rose to object to that part of the bill which related to the stamp on the registry of freeholds. He said, that when the right hon. gent. first brought forward this bill, he had declared he would collect the sentiments of the gentlemen of Ireland as to this particular tax, and if they should be against it, he would give it up. He, for his own part, must now beg leave to say, that he strongly objected to it, as being highly unconstitutional, in as much as it affected the right of the electors, and of that portion of them, too, who had scarcely any thing else to shew that they had a place in the community. That it was without any precedent, there being in this country no such tax, nor hitherto even in Ireland, any thing of the kind thought of. The 26th of the King only required that freeholders in this country should shew the existence of their freeholds, and does not bear out the right hon. gent. in this tax. He was the more desirous to urge these objections at present, because the right hon. gent. was about to lay on new taxes to the amount of 1,200,000l., a system which he highly approved, and to the success of which he was sure no one was more alive than himself. Whilst he was, however, desirous that the rich, and those who could bear their proportion, should contribute to these taxes, he should be sorry to see them extended to the poor and lowly, who had always too many hardships and difficulties to contend with. He hoped, therefore, the right hon. gent. would agree to wave this tax.
made some short objections to the tax on the same ground.
denied the tax was unconstitutional. If there was any impolicy in Ireland relative to the freeholders, it was in requiring them to be registered. By the act of Geo. I. freeholders are precluded from voting, unless their freehold was proved by affidavits, and on these affidavits he proposed to lay the present tax. On the ground of its being unconstitutional, he would therefore not yield to any man living; but if it was put on the ground of bearing hard on the lower ranks of the people, he was willing to attend to the sentiments of gent. on that head; and, as a great number of gent. wished to have the tax postponed, he was willing to comply with their desire. He had, at the same time, a favour to beg of them, which was, that they would use their exertions against the use of private stills. He had in his eye an hon. gent. from the west of Ireland, who, he believed, knew how very necessary this was, and he hoped and trusted he for one would oblige him in acceding to this request. He then said he should for the present withdraw the tax in question.
assured the right hon. gent. he would do all in his power to prevent a practice, of the evils of which he was so well convinced. He had for 2 or 3 years past been in correspondence with the revenue board on this subject, and had submitted to them a plan which he doubted not would bring in 100,000l. at an expense amounting to not much more than 2 or 3000l.—The house was then resumed, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow.