House of Commons
Friday, June 29 1804
Minutes
The Speaker, with several members, attended in the House of Peers; and on their return, the Speaker informed the house, that the royal assent had been given, by commission, to the Additional Force bill, the Irish Public Accounts' bill, the Linen Duty Exemption bill, the Aylesbury Election bill, the Caledonian Canal bill, and several private bills.—Mr. Alderman Combe presented a petition in behalf of those debtors who are confined on account of offences committed against the revenue. Ordered to lie on the table.—The Insolvent Debtors' bill was read a third time and passed.—The Cotton Manufacturers' bill was ordered to be committed on Tuesday.—A message from the Lords informed the house, that their lordships had agreed to the Woollen Manufacturers' Penalty bill.—The Dollar bill was reported, and ordered to be read a third time on Monday.—Mr. Huskisson moved, that an humble address be presented to his Majesty, praying that he be graciously pleased to give directions, that there be laid before the house a further account of the sums of money issued by his Majesty's orders, pursuant to addresses of that house, and which had not been made good by parliament.—On the motion of Mr. Rose, it was ordered that the house do, on Monday, resolve itself into a committee on the Free Ports Acts of the 27th of the King.—The Exchequer Bills Issue bill, and the Irish Stamp Duties' bill, were reported, and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
Sierra Leona Company
said, he wished to ask a noble lord, whom he then saw in his place, whether he meant to bring forward any motion on the subject of the report of the committee, to whom the petition from the Sierra Leona Company had been referred, and upon which he had made some observations on a former day?
replied, that it never had been, nor was it now, his intention to move any thing upon the subject. There were others, from whom such a motion would originate with much more propriety than from him, and he wished they might bring it forward. He understood that a right hon. gent. (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), who was not present, intended to move something upon it.
said, it was the intention of his right hon. friend to bring forward a motion on the subject in the committee of supply.
Irish Affairs
rose and observed, that several documents which he had moved for, respecting the public affairs of Ireland, had not yet been laid before the house, and consequently he should be precluded, by the very advanced period of the session, from submitting to the house any observations which, upon a perusal of those documents, should appear necessary. He must, therefore, postpone his objects until an early period in the next session, when, if they should not be otherwise taken up in the interim, he should certainly call to them the attention of parliament. The objects to which he alluded, he would now shortly explain. The first was one which he held it of high importance to follow up, namely, to ascertain the exact extent of the population of Ireland. The next was a subject long in contemplation, namely, that of equalizing the interest of money between G. Britain and Ireland. The next was a general assimilation of the laws in Ireland, to those of G. Britain, as far as the circumstances of the country would admit. Feeling the importance of these several objects, he could certainly wish them to be taken up by is Majesty's ministers. But if not taken up by them in an early period of the next session, he should feel it his duty to bring them forward even under every disadvantage of his own inability.
Irish Bank Notes Bill
rose for leave to bring in a bill for permitting the circulation of notes, by registered bankers in Ireland, for sums under 20s. for a time to be limited, and to restrain the circulation of such notes by persons not registered bankers, after a certain period. The house, he presumed, would have no objection to his explaining the objects of the bill. In Ireland, for a considerable time past, it had been customary with many persons in trade in the provincial towns there, for the want of silver coinage, to issue what were called silver notes, that is, notes payable to bearer on demand, for sums under 1l. In a short time after the practice commenced, it became very general, and so far from being confined to registered bankers, was practiced by every low trader, and by men of no property, guided by no principle but that of their own avarice; and so current did those notes become, and to such an enormous extent were they issued, that it was to be apprehended, in case of any sudden or general demand for payment, a general bankruptcy must ensue amongst those men, and those who had given their property for such notes, be losers of three-fourths. It was well known that a large supply of dollars were now on their way to Ireland, which were to pass at a currency above their intrinsic value. Still they would be not only a very great convenience to the country of themselves, but be the means, almost immediately on their appearance, to bring into circulation a vast quantity of good silver coin, which there was every reason to believe was now hoarded in many parts of the country. The object of this bill then was, to confine henceforth the issue of notes for sums under 20s. to the registered bankers only, and to allow all other persons, having such notes in circulation till the 1st of Jan. to call them in; but to prohibit the re-issue of all notes so paid off. The registered bankers to be allowed to issue notes for as small sums in silver as they thought fit, there being no great cause to apprehend any great excess in the issue of notes under 5s. as all were liable to one stamp duty. By these means there would be time for the gradual payment of the outstanding notes of persons not registered bankers in 6 months, without risking the evils to be apprehended from a sudden demand; and tha public would have in future the security of persons of known property and credit, for the solvency of such notes. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in the bill.
thought the benefits to result from this bill would be in some measure done away, if a privilege of issuing small notes under 6s. was granted to some and denied to others. He thought it would be better that permission to issue these small notes should not be restricted to registered bankers in Ireland, but be also given to others.
said, he had no particular partiality to one sort of provision in the bill more than another; he only meant that those who issued notes, as coming from their banks, should be regularly registered as bankers, according to law. And it was in the power of every man, who had capital and credit to entitle him to become a banker, to be registered. The bill would have the effect of preventing the circulation of notes that were not stamped.
said, the small notes circulated in Ireland were a very great nuisance; but that did not arise from the circulation of them by registered bankers, but by those who employed and paid workmen in them, such as farmers, millers, &c.
wished that the circulation of silver notes might be restrained, for if they were not, he was afraid the new 6s. pieces would go out of circulation.
said, the right hon. gent. would do a great service to Ireland, if he would prevent the issue of what were called silver notes, by persons not possessing sufficient property or credit.—Leave was given to bring in the bill.
Irish Additional Force Bill
On the motion for the second reading of this bill;
rose to ask the right hon. sec. for Ireland a question. An act had, within the last few weeks, passed this house, for enabling his Majesty to increase the militia of Ireland by 10,000 men. Now the act similar to the present bill, which had just passed into law for England and Scotland, had for its object to reduce the militia. What he wished to know then was, whether it was the intention of govt. to suspend altogether the power given to his Majesty by the former bill, as he could hardly suppose an intention so absurd as that of carrying into operation at the same time two bills diametrically opposite in their effects?
answered, that for the present there certainly was no intention of acting under the former bill. It was impossible, however, to foresee what necessity might arise for it.
wished to postpone the committal of the bill to a late day in the ensuing week, as there had not been time since the bill was printed to give it due consideration.
thought there was pressing necessity to expedite the bill, as many persons were at this moment laboring under great anxiety, as liable to be drawn for the army of reserve.
was for deferring the second reading at least till Monday next. —After some farther explanations, the bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday next.
Irish Customs and Excise Bill
The house having gone into a committee on this bill, pursuant to the order of the day,
explained some alterations which he wished to make in it, the most material was, in the duties on wine, which he proposed to reduce, so that 6d. on a bottle would be a sufficient additional charge upon the consumer.
approved of the reduction of the intended new duties upon wines, but he had hoped that the right hon. gent. would have given some explanation of the reasons which made it necessary to extend, so considerably, the scale of taxation for that country. As he understood it, Ireland was now charged with 11½ millions annually, when her revenue was but 3 millions.
said, the revenue of Ireland was not quite 3 millions, and the interest of its debt was 2½ millions. The expenses altogether were 9 millions, which was allowing 6 millions both for its quota to the expenses of the empire, and 3 millions for its own separate expenses; it was because the revenues of Ireland were so notoriously inadequate to the expenses, that he thought it right to raise as large a sum of money as he could by taxes which should not be severely felt.
objected to the duty on tea, and thought it would have a direct tendency to encourage smuggling. He thought, at least, that, as a proposition for the duty was not made until after the India sales had closed, and the Irish agents had made their purchases, wholly inapprehensive of such a duty, that at least the duty should not operate for a very considerable time.
answered, that the duty would fall on the consumer, and not on the tea-dealer, and that the tea-dealer would not wait for imposing the increased price, until the duty should actually come into operation, but lay it on the article the very moment that the first account of the proposed duty reached him. He therefore wished to put the money into the public treasury, and not into the pocket of the tea-dealer, which would be the case it the operation of the duty was postponed to a distant day.
objected to the duty on foreign salt imported into Ireland. He observed, that the provision trade of Ireland was rapidly declining, and this duty would have the effect of making it worse, and of creating an alarm among the trade; because, he was sure, it would add to the price of salt, of which so large a quantity was used in curing meat. Besides, this increase of price would operate as a hardship on the poor Irish cottager, whose situation called for the compassionate attension of every man.
said, the thing itself was no great object, and he was ready to coincide with the wishes of those gent., who thought that foreign salt ought to be exempted. He would not press any thing that might even be supposed to have an effect on the provision trade; and for the encouragement of that trade, as well as of the merchants in general, he would introduce a provision to allow the warehousing of salt imported into Ireland.—The bill having gone through the committee, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow —Adjourned.