moved the order of the day for the 2d reading of the counterfeit dollars' bill.

.—Sir; I cannot help agreeing in many of the observations made some days ago by an hon. gent. on the other side, (Mr. Princep) on the subject of this bill. The right or privilege of coining money in this country, and I believe in every monarchy, is a royalty inseparable from the crown. To counterfeit the king's coin is treason. To fix the stamp or impression, is the king's unquestionable prerogative, in order that the value of the coin may be known on inspection. The king's effigy, so guarded from imitation, is a security to his subjects for the standard and the weight of the money issued for their use by the royal mint, and no other. The denomination, or the value for which the coin is to pass current, is in the breast of the king; and, if any unusual pieces are coined, that value must be ascertained by proclamation. Now, Sir, what are these dollars? They are coined at Birmingham; and they bear the impression of the king's head. Does that stamp furnish any security to persons, who receive them, that they really possess that intrinsic value at which they are circulated? I desire to know whether they are considered as a sign or a deposit? If they are nothing but a token, receivable by the Bank at 5s. a piece of copper or of paper would do as well. If they profess to be of that intrinsic value, they assert a falsehood. We know that they are not worth more than 4s. 6d. They, who are tempted to receive them by the king's stamp and the beauty of the piece, are liable to lose the difference either by a false coinage, of baser metal, even at Birmingham, or by these very dollars being mutilated or defaced, otherwise than by what the Bank, in their advertisement, call the fair effect of use in the course of circulation. Now, who is to judge between these different causes of depreciation? The Bank alone, who will gain 6d. by every dollar, which they can find a pretence for refusing, as they have done many of those lately issued with a stamp or Tower mark, which they said was forged. Who but themselves can tell whether it is so or not? The pernicious tendency of all these temporary expedients to serve a turn, is to place ignorance and carelessness at the mercy of skill and cunning. These dollars may be counterfeited. The penalty held out by this bill will not prevent it. We have laws enough against this sort of forgery; yet coiners and clippers are as numerous as ever. I wish to know, why Spanish dollars might not be issued by the Bank, if such a relief to circulation be really wanted, to any body who wishes to receive them, at their market price, or intrinsic value, suppose 4s. 6d without any obligation to take them again. No such condition would be wanted. I remember a time when the gold coin of Portugal was as current and as well received here as guineas, and even more in circulation; and that too, by the mere force of their intrinsic value. It is said that nobody is compelled to take these new Birmingham dollars. What then? you tempt the ignorant, you offer to relieve the necessitous, and you expose them all to be defrauded; that is, you bait the hook, and then you say, that nobody need swallow it. On the whole, Sir, I am against this bill; but if it must pass, I hope that care will be taken to prevent the Bank from calling in these dollars when they please, Otherwise, by giving only a short notice, they might contrive to leave a great part of them in the hands of any body who happened to be possessed of them at any given moment.

defended the bill as one to which the arguments of the hon. gent. did not in any respect apply. This bill did not go to give new powers to any individuals, but only to protect and give greater security to the property of a company which had issued certain tokens upon its own credit. These were not issued as bearing the character or impression of the current coin of the realm; but given as securities from that company alone. The only question then was, whether it was not better to issue them in money, in order to prevent those forgeries and counterfeits which must take place to a great extent, if they were issued in paper? The hon. gent. might as well object to a bill brought in to prevent the forgery of bank notes; and that on the ground of such notes being made in a particular shape. There was no compulsion on the public, as to taking the dollars in question; they were found to be the most convenient circulating medium at this time; and the shape of the dollars now issued, was the best calculated to prevent frauds upon the public, With respect to fixing a time for calling them in, the bill was wholly silent on that point, nor did he see what necessity there was for such a provision. As to what the hon. gent. said, relative to an advertisement coming from the Bank, there certainly was a mistake on that subject, for no such practice had prevailed as that of the Bank refusing to take, after a certain period, dollars previously issued by them.

.—Sir; I wish to say a few words on this bill, before it is read a 3d time, and not the less so on account of the speech we have just heard; which may indeed have been an answer to the hon. gent. whom it professed to answer, but which was certainly no answer to the objections which I feel to this measure. Sir, this bill may be viewed in two lights; 1st, as preventing the counterfeiting of dollars, which is its professed object; and 2d, which is not its object, but which will be equally its effect; viz. the authorizing of the issuing these dollars in their present circumstances by a legislative act. Now, I assert that, if it be fit to authorize or permit these dollars to be so issued, it is necessarily fit to prevent the counterfeiting of them; but I conceive, that it is by no means fit to do this. These dollars are to be considered either as tokens or as coin. If they are to be considered as tokens, then I object to the bill on these grounds. I object to its being brought forward as a government measure; and supported by the weight and authority which it acquires from that circumstance; I object too, to the king's image being impressed upon the dollars. It is a private commercial transaction of the Bank, with which the king and the govt. have nothing to do. If these dollars are to be looked upon as coin, other objections still weightier lie against this measure. As in the former supposition, I object to the govt. having any concern with it, in this case, I object to the interference of the Bank. What have the Bank to do with coining money? Why is the coin to be issued from the Bank? The act of coining money, and issuing coin is every where esteemed and reserved as the special act of the sovereign. It is one of the most important attributes of sovereignty; and why we are to bestow it on the Bank, is what I wish to enquire. There is another circumstance of grave consideration in this business. If these dollars are to be esteemed coin, I should be glad to know according to what standard their value is fixed at 5s.? The real value of the dollar in sterling money is 4s. 6d. why are they to be issued for 5s.? I know their current value in the market is now 5s., but that is not their sterling value. To issue them, therefore, at that rate, is no less a fraud on the public, then if one-ninth of the silver in the shilling was taken away, and the remaining 10¾. coined into the shape of a shilling, and issued as such. There is a third point, which it is worth while to consider, and that is this, what security we have that the dollars thus issued contain the same quantity of silver which they purport to do? At the mint there are proper officers to examine and ascertain this fact with respect to the coin there issued. Whose business is it to examine these dollars? How are we to be sure that there has been no clipping or no rubbing in their second coinage at Birmingham? On these grounds then, Sir, I object to this measure; I wish to know in the first place what character these dollars are to bear—whether they are to be esteemed tokens or coin? In both cases, there are great objections to the measure; but most of all is it objectionable, that they should have this sort of mixed character, and that it should not be known precisely in what light they are to be viewed.

declared, that there never had been entertained the smallest idea of considering these dollars as current coin. They were only another mode of issuing notes for small sums, and, therefore, any arguments, founded on the notion that they were to be issued as current coin, were wholly inapplicable. The legislature in passing the present bill, which did not contain any provision sanctioning or even permitting the issue, would do nothing more than as it was found for the public convenience to issue these dollars into circulation, make the counterfeiting them a crime, which it was not as the law then stood. Whether the quantity to be issued should not exceed a certain proportion to the silver coin in circulation, was a question certainly not undeserving of attention, but the difficulties attending any efficient arrangement for the adjustment of the silver coinage were too well known to make it necessary for him to touch upon that subject then. In the issue of the dollars, the Bank entered into an engagement to take them back at the same rate at which they issued them; and in fixing the day in a former instance, they had only a view to get them in as soon as possible. If it were desirable for the public convenience to issue dollars under these circumstances, he trusted the house would not be satisfied to leave the Bank exposed to the danger of their being counterfeited.

said, he could not object to any provision that went to prevent the commission of crimes, and the great public inconvenience arising from counterfeits. But what he complained of in the measure in question was, that two operations, distinct in their nature, were not kept distinct in their appearance. This was the very ground that his noble friend (Lord Folkestone) had insisted upon. It was proposed that, to supply the deficiency of smaller currency, dollars should be issued by the Bank. To this there was not, as far as he knew, any objection. But why give to those dollars an air and character which did not belong to them, and which must infallibly make it supposed by three-fourths of those who were to receive them, that they had an authority which they had not, and were issued in some sort upon the footing of other coin, and under the sanction of the sovereign? What can be the use, or rather what can be the propriety, of such a deception? An ambiguity of this sort ought not to be suffered to rest on the transaction, whether considered with a view to the high privilege in question, namely, that of coining, a privilege which was the immediate badge and pledge of sovereignty, or in the view of fairness towards the subject, who should not be made to receive any thing in payment, under a false impression of the authority by which it was issued. If these dollars are tokens merely, why affix to them the image of the sovereign? If they are coin, why subjoin the arms of the Bank? Is it fit that in a matter of this sort any thing should be left, or rather purposely put, in this kind of doubtful and equivocal state? There can be neither dignity nor fairness in such a proceeding. Is it said that the arms of the Bank being placed upon them, sufficiently shew that they are not coin. But of what use, then, is the King's head? If the Bank arms show that the pieces are not coin, the King's head seems equally to show that they are not merely tokens. The combination of the two must produce ambiguity, even if it is not intended to do so; and if ambiguity can be avoided, why suffer it to be incurred? It cannot be said here, that the Bank do this of their own authority; that as the pieces in question cannot be said to be a counterfeit of the coin of the country; as there is no danger, for instance, of a dollar, whatever be the characters inscribed upon it, being mistaken for a 7s. piece, or for any other of the current coin of the kingdom; and as the representation of coin is not complete, so as to bring the act within any of the laws against coining, that therefore the house has no right, nor is it called upon, to interfere. The house is interfering at this very moment, so as to give to the Bank a security which it could not otherwise have; and therefore, before they grant this security, they may stipulate, that the Bank should not annex to their issues any character which may tend, by possibility even, to confound them with the current coin of the kingdom. It is as little possible to say that there is not danger of such confusion. The image of the sovereign; stamped upon a piece of metal having all the ordinary characters, and being used for all the ordinary purposes of coin, and possessing an intrinsic value nearly equal to that for which it passes, conveys an idea of something so very like a piece of money, that it seems in vain to hope that the mistake will not be made; and to such a mistake ought the house to contribute? He would not press the matter further, but conclude by expressing his perfect concurrence in the objections of his noble friend.

was ready to admit that the remarks made by the right hon. gent. who spoke last, and others, were not unfounded; but they did not apply to this bill. It certainly was not desirable that any company of men should do that which was the prerogative of the crown. With respect to these silver tokens of the Bank, he must say they were issued at that amount which ought to be the value of silver in England. On the same principle, these tokens in Ireland were to pass at the rate of 6s. in order to accommodate them to the state of the exchange in that country. He certainly objected to the principle of public bodies having the privilege to do acts that properly belonged to the sovereign. But this objection would be done away, when it was considered that the present was only a temporary expedient.

said, the measure in question only went to give ease and facility to the circulating medium of the country at large, and of London in particular, which were much indebted to those who had brought it forward.

contended, there was in this measure the strongest temptation to counterfeit, without even adulterating the silver. The standard value of a dollar was 4s. 6d. What was there then to prevent men from getting new dollars, and giving them the shape of those issued by the Bank, and then gaining 6d. on each of them?

contended, that govt. was now enabling the banks of England and Ireland to commit a fraud; for they would pay their debts in a coin whose real was less than its nominal value.

answered, that the Bank was liable to take back these dollars, and give for them the sum at which they were issued.—The bill was then read a third time and passed.

moved the order of the day for the 3d reading of the Irish Customs and Excise bill. On the question being put,

rose. He said he could not suffer this opportunity to pass, without making a few observations on the situation of that part of the empire to which the operation of this bill was to be confined. The right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Foster) had stated the national debt of Ireland to have been 25,000,000l. in 1800; 53,000,000 in 1803; and that the revenues of that country were rapidly declining. He had stated, that since Jan. last, a defalcation had taken place in the revenue to the amount of 300,000l. and yet with its manufactures annihilated, except its staple, the linen manufacture, with its provision trade diminished, and its resources exhausted, that country had added 9,500,000l. to its debt this year, while G. Britain, during the same period, enjoying a commerce commensurate with the limits of the habitable world, with manufactures in a state of the highest prosperity, and wealth and resources inexhaustible, had added but a sum little exceeding 12,000,000l. It was unnecessary to accompany such a statement with any observations on the financial difficulties that must be the fate of Ireland; difficulties which one would be almost afraid to look in the face. The right hon. gent. had proposed to support the sinking revenue of Ireland, by raising an additional revenue to the amount of 1,253,000l.; and here he took occasion to return his thanks to that right hon. gent. for having given up the increase of the duty on foreign salt, and the proposed stamp duty on the registering of freeholds. But that right hon. gent. must agree with him, that the taxes now proposed would be heavily felt in a country circumstanced as Ireland. The right hon. Gent had appealed to the members for Ireland to look the difficulties in the face, and to make common cause in their efforts to promote the collection of the revenue. No man more cordially wished for that unanimity than he did, because he was confident that the want of union had been the cause of all the lamentable miseries and distractions that had befallen that country. He was sanguine enough to hope, that if ever that blessed day should arrive, when the members for Ireland would be unanimous in recommending measures best calculated to promote the permanent interests of their country, they would have the hearty concurrence of the members for this part of the empire. And here he begged to enter his solemn protest against the principle, from whatever quarter it may have been derived, that Irish members ought not to interfere on questions exclusively confined to G. Britain, nor vice versa. Such a principle was in direct contradiction to the spirit of the Union, which transferred the care of the interests of all parts of the united empire, to the enlightened wisdom and impartial justice of our imperial legislature. The right hon. gent. had proposed two arrangements for supporting the sinking resources of the country: be had appealed to the gent. of Ireland to assist in promoting the effectual collection of the revenue, and to the minister of the empire, to give effect to a system of economy. These, however, were not of themselves sufficient to save the country, and he should look upon himself as deficient in duty, if he neglected to remind the house, that something more was necessary to save that country from the ruin, which, by the statement of the right hon. gent. and by the papers on the table, appeared to be impending over it. No man lamented more than he did the circumstances of exclusion under which the present administration was formed; yet whatever loss he must suppose the public service to have sustained thereby, when he looked at the right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt), when he recollected the experience he had had for 20 years in the govt. of Ireland, when he called to mind the circumstances, feelings and sentiments under which he had retired, from office, and when he perceived him returning to power, convinced as he must be, that Ireland had been miserably governed, and that nothing had since occurred to change those sentiments and feelings, though he lamented the principles of exclusion on which his administration was formed, be could not but omen favorably to the cause of his country, from the return of that right hon. gent. to power. He hoped and trusted the right hon. gent. would bear the matter in his mind, that he would take it with him to his closet during the recess, and employ on it his gigantic faculties, that he should not be misled by weakness, bigotry, or wickedness. He could not avoid adverting to these circumstances at a moment when they were going to impose nearly one-half in addition to the actual amount of the revenue in Ireland. The hon. gent. then adverted to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus act, and the bill for establishing martial law, the policy of which measures, or of repealing them in the present instance, he did not mean to enter into; and after bearing honourable testimony to the manner in which the govt. of Lord Hardwicke had been administered, concluded with a declaration of his wish to rivet the attention of the right hon. gent. (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to the state of Ireland, and that the security depended not upon fortifications or blockading squadrons, but upon the affections and loyalty of the people.—The bill was then proceeded with, and after some progress had been made, the farther proceeding was put off to to-morrow.

brought up a petition from the trustees of the British Museum, praying the aid of the sum of 16,000l. to enable them to make an addition to the British Museum, in order to secure those valuable monuments from the effects of the weather. The hon. member stated, that the application had the sanction of the crown, and that the object of the petitioners was to provide suitable apartments for the preservation of invaluable monuments of antiquity, which had been acquired by the velour, intrepidity, and skill of our troops in an expedition seldom equaled in the annals of any country, and which were now under a shed exposed to the injuries of the weather.

thought the sum a considerable one, and wished to know whether it was intended to submit the petition to the consideration of a committee, or to vote the sum in the committee of supply, without further investigation?

replied, that he did not propose to vote more than half the sum this session. All that could be done during the recess, would be to lay the foundation, and no money would be laid out but what was absolutely necessary.

wished to have stated to the house the nature of the monuments which required a sum of 16,000l. to provide them with a shelter from the weather.

, before such a vote passed, thought it highly incumbent on the house to be apprised of the manner in which the money was to be applied, and also to know that it was to be committed to proper hands. For the mere erection of sheds to cover these curiosities 16,000l. was a very large suns.

said that it was not merely for the reception of these curiosities that the application was made to the house. The grant, if obtained, would be employed in the general improvement and extension of the Museum, so as to render it more adequate to the reception of new curiosities similar to those adverted to, or to such others as accidental circumstances, or individual liberality might from time to time afford.

was by no means disposed to oppose the petition, but thought, that if such a liberal grant were afforded, the public ought in return to have greater facility of access to the curiosities which the museum contained.

was friendly to the general object of the petition, as it had been, explained by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He considered it rather discreditable to the national character, that so much had for a century past been done for other national objects, while so little had been done for the encouragement of the arts. In affording the grant proposed, the house would only be doing what they ought long ago to have done.

thought the plan and estimate ought to be laid before the house.—After a few words from Sir W. Young and Dr. Laurence,

, to satisfy all parties, moved that the plan and estimate of the proposed improvements should be laid on the table; after which committee might be appointed to examine the propriety of granting the sums required. Ordered.

moved the order of the day for the house to go into a committee of supply; and that the reports of the Civil List of the last, and likewise of the present session, and the several accounts relative thereto, together with the additional estimates for the navy, the Sierra Leone company, the African company, and the Veterinary College estimates, be referred thereto.—The house having accordingly resolved itself into a committee, the right hon. gent. observed, that as the state of his Majesty's civil list had been so fully before the house in the report both of the last and present session, it would not be necessary for him to detain the committee, by dwelling at any length upon the subject to which he proposed to call its attention. The reports showed that a considerable exceeding had taken place in several articles in the year 1802, beyond the estimates of 1787. This exceeding, it appeared, had taken place only in articles of three descriptions: 1st, in the 3d class, which comprehended the salaries and establishments of foreign ministers; next, in the 4th class, comprehending the expenses of the household; and lastly, in that class of expenditure, ranked under the head of occasional payments. Many of the items of increase under this head, arose from the additional expenses of foreign service, from objects of internal police, from the augmented expenses of the two houses of parliament, from secret foreign services, and the additional expense in messengers, in consequence of the renewal of hostilities. The house, on the grounds stated in the report of 1802, had voted a sum to discharge the arrears then due on his Majesty's civil list and that they had voted that sum, and had appeared to be their opinion that some further arrangement should be made to provide against the accumulation of debt on it in future, no measure had been since taken to equalize the revenue to the expenditure Two years and a half had since elapsed and the debt which he had then to propose to make a provision for, amounted to 590,000l. Gent. would perceive that the debt on the civil list was last year 250,000l. and that the accession of it since had been only in a proportion conformable to the gradual excess of the expenditure over the former estimates. The right hon. gent. therefore, hoped, that on the ground on which the house had granted the money in 1802, to discharge the debt affecting the civil list, there would be no objection to vote, in the present instance, the sum necessary to liquidate the debt that had since accumulated. With respect to the future state of the civil list, all the committees that had reported on the subject had agreed, that there were many charges that ought to be transferred to the estimates annually voted by the house, most of them, new in their nature, or carried to an extent not foreseen in the former estimates. Many of those arose from the war, from the internal circumstances and situation of the country, from increased law expenses, from the additional expense of stationary for parliament, from the arrangement for the improvement of both houses, and from the multiplication of private bills, none of which ought properly to be charged on the civil list. It would also afford a further inducement to relieve the civil list from such charges, that they might vary with circumstances, and some of them even be diminished on the recurrence of peace. Many too would increase from the effect of that increase in the objects of legislation, arising out of the growing prosperity of the country. These charges came all under the head of occasional payments, but it was not his intention to propose to transfer them all to be annually voted, but such a proportion of them as would amount to the sum of 135,000l, on the scale on which they were estimated for the present year, and which would be subject to some diminution on the return of peace. In addition to the expenses of printing for the Court of Exchequer, for the houses of parliament, to a provision for the officers of parliament, to law charges, and certain allowances to sheriffs, they would also include a provision for the French refugees, clergy, and laity. The other heads were of a political nature. In the estimates of 1787, no allowance had been made for foreign secret services. A sum was usually voted by parliament, under the head of secret service money, which was usually insufficient, and the deficiency was made up out of the civil list, but in future, he proposed that the whole estimated expense should be laid before the house in order to its being provided for by parliament. The extraordinary allowances to foreign ministers, and the extra contingencies in the office of sec. of state in war could not have made any part of a peace estimate. The whole of the sums for civil and political purposes, from which he proposed to relieve the civil list, would be as he before stated, 135,000l. This he did not think proper to vote at present, he mentioned it only by way of explanation, of what he meant to submit to the house on a future day. The other proposal that he had to make was a grant of a positive addition to the civil list. The addition, he trusted, would appear to gent. moderate, when it was considered that the necessity of making it arose chiefly from the increase under the head of tradesmen's bills, in the different departments of his Majesty's household, in that of the Lord Chamberlain, the Lord Steward, the Master of the Horse, and the Master of the Robes. No gent. who reflected on the very considerable rise that had taken place in the price of every article of domestic accommodation, could be surprised that his Majesty had not confined his expenses under that head, within limits that had been marked out so long since. An increase of 40, 50, or 601. per cent. had taken place in such articles since 1787. The expenses under this head, chargeable on the civil list, amounted in 1802 to 218,000l. and he was convinced, that a positive addition of 60,000l. to meet the increase in the different articles, would appear moderate, especially when it was considered that these were articles that most intimately contributed to the comforts of every branch of the royal family. It would also be a satisfaction to the house to be assured, that they who had the super intendance of the disbursements, were studious in avoiding any unnecessary ex-pence. These formed the chief addition to the civil list, for it was apparent, that the other charges under the head of occasional payments, grew out of the political circumstances of the country. In the article of pensions, there was a diminution rather than an increase, being this yea 10,000l. less than in 1802. If he were to propose an increase in proportion to the depreciation in the value of money, and to correspond with the progressive increase of other establishments, it would not by any means be unreasonable. But, however desirable it might be to furnish his Majesty with the means of exercising his benevolence on a scale befitting a great nation, he, in consideration of the pressure of the circumstances of the times, proposed that the estimate under the head of pensions, should be taken at 92,000l. as it was in 1802. The only other item in which there was any real excess, was in certain allowances to the foreign ministers, and this would not exceed 8000l. There was another instance in which there would be an apparent increase. When his Majesty's civil list had been settled, the sum of 58,000l. was granted to her Majesty to cover all the expenses of the royal family, and it was thought right now that parliament should enable his Majesty to grant the sum of 4000l. annually from the civil list, the allowance to her Majesty being altogether insufficient. This would create a charge of 20,000l. upon the civil list. The whole amount then of the charges to be voted annually, would be 135,000l. The estimated charges on the civil list, amounted to 975,000l.; the revenue of the civil list, did not quite amount to 900,000l.; it appeared, however, that certain fees which had been added to the civil list, raised it to 921,000l.; which left a deficit of 64,000l. The right hon. gent., therefore, proposed to vote a positive addition of 60,000l. to the civil list, and trusted that the grounds he had stated would be so satisfactory to the committee, that they would feel no repugnance to adopt his propositions. He concluded by moving, that it be the opinion of the committee, that the sum of 591,842l. 3s. 10½d. be granted to his Majesty, for defraying the arrears of the civil list.—On the question being put,

said, that in delivering his sentiments on the present question, he did not mean to cast the smallest reflection, either on the present administration or the last; but it became the house to look with an eye of extreme jealousy in times like the present, whenever they were called upon for a grant of the public money. Two years ago, he had understood it to be the intention of the then administration, to fix the expenditure at a certain sum, and they had professed a determination to prevent a similar accumulation in future. He was, however, sorry to observe, they had neglected and disregarded punctuality in the payments of the different classes. For 16 years previous to the year 1802, the average of the civil list debt was not more than 80,400l. annually, but for the two last years that average had trebled. The cause of this increase he particularly wished to have explained. The sums under the head of special service for the last two years, struck him as rather extraordinary. The 40,000l. for foreign ministers, he thought, should be specifically accounted for. He did not like this way of lumping it. It might lead men to conjecture that it was made a cloak for the application of the public money to improper purposes. At the same time that he expressed a wish that the house and the public should be satisfied upon this point, he begged it to be understood that, far from desiring to abridge the allowance to our ambassadors, he entertained a hope that such allowances would be augmented, so as to consult the rank and suitable accommodation of our diplomatic agents. Under the head of the Lord Chamberlain's office, and particularly with respect to the Board of Works, he observed a considerable increase beyond former years. For the augmentation of the allowance of presents, &c. to foreign ministers within the last year, he could not conceive a reason. He meant that kind of allowance granted for executing conventions, treaties, &c. as there were none such that he recollected. Yet this sum materially exceeded the expenditure for a similar purpose in the year previous to the last war, when so many conventions and treaties with foreign powers were concluded. The excess might, perhaps, have proceeded from presents to the Barbary States, but of this he wished to be informed. In the compensation to persons for loss of offices, there was an advance of 10,000l. which made up for the 10,000l. reduction of the pension list, which had been noticed by his right hon. friend, and therefore there was no saving to the public. The additional expense in the offices of the three secretaries of state, which was not less than 77,000l. appeared to him particularly to require explanation. One of those offices was no doubt new, and he did not mean to contend that it was unnecessary in war, but upon the return of peace, whenever it should arrive, he hoped it would be done away. The hon. member stated his approbation of the proposal of his right hon. friend, to transfer to another fund those charges which did not properly belong to the civil list. There was another item in the report on the table upon which the hon. member confessed that he could not touch without pain, but his sense of duty would not suffer him to overlook it. This was an advance of 16,000l. to the Duke of Clarence, which was to be paid by instalments, and of which 7000l. were still due. If the salary of that illustrious personage, or of any other branch of the royal family, were found inadequate to provide for the comforts which belonged to the station they occupied, he would be as ready as any man to consent to any increase that might be necessary; but he disliked the principle of such occasional advances as that to which he alluded. It was a complete deviation from the spirit and letter of Mr. Burke's bill. It tended to disorganize the whole system of the civil list. It would serve to place the princes of the blood in a kind of dependence on the first lord of the treasury, who might, if this practice were tolerated, advance any sum he pleased in his clandestine manner, without the consent of parliament, to any person he chose to accommodate, whether that person belonged to the royal family or not. For it was hard to say to what an extent the principle might be carried. It had, indeed, in one instance been extended to a military officer (Major-Gen. Gardiner), to whom above 2000l. had been advanced, with the stipulation of repayment at the rate of 300l. a-year, not a guinea of which had been yet received. How came it, that the performance of such an engagement was not in forced by those who had the means of doing so, by deducting from the salaries they had to pay? The next point to which the hon. member called the attention of the house, was the deficiency in the fees of officers in the treasury, which amounted to 15,000l. a sum equal to the whole salary of the higher officers in that department. How such a deficiency grew up, he wished to learn. Upon the whole, indeed, of the items to which he had alluded, he was anxious for explanation, perhaps that explanation might remove his doubts. To the time at which this proposition was submitted, he could not help saying, that he had much objection. At such a crisis as the present, when the country had such burdens to bear, and such difficulties to encounter, he did not think it was decorous or fitting to make this application on the part of the crown. As it was determined to make it, however it was incumbent on his Majesty's ministers to couple with it some measure to prevent the farther accumulation of debt in this department. He had heard it said, that such a general measure was impracticable; but this assertion was not borne out by the experience of many years immediately succeeding the enactment of Mr. Burke's bill. It was evident, that either some means must be adopted of keeping the expenses of this department within the revenue assigned, or a necessity would perpetually recur of resorting to parliament in the way then before the house. The hon. member admitted that, if a permanent addition to the revenue of the civil list were deemed necessary, the arrangement could not be put on a better footing than that proposed by his right hon. friend. He exhorted the treasury, with whom the control rested, to keep all the govt. offices within the rules of economy, and not permit extravagance of any kind. Among the other explanations required by the hon. gent. he requested to be informed of the amount of the 4½ per cent. duties which were applicable to the purposes of the civil list, and also of the other resources which were applicable in aid of that fund?

began by complimenting the fair and parliamentary manner in which his hon. friend had stated his opinions. The principal point upon which his hon. friend seemed to hesitate as to the propriety of concurring in the proposition before the house was this, that the time of war was not that which ought to have been selected for an application of this nature; but in answer to this objection he would say, that it was become necessary to do one of two things; either to refuse to the throne an adequate allowance, or to break in upon the establishment of royalty; and he did not believe that there was a man who, in any circumstances, would, merely for a saving of 50 or 60,000l. consent to an abridgment of that dignity which formed a necessary part of the monarchy, and therefore formed a necessary part of our constitution. This, however, must be done, or else we must go on suffering the debt of the civil list to accumulate in time of war, and thus lay the necessity of making good the payment of it in time of peace; but he would submit it to the judgment of the house and the public, whether it was not better, even amidst the pressure of war, at once to provide for the discharge of this arrear, and also to guard, as much as possible, against the recurrence of such debts, than to adopt either of the alternatives he had referred to? To state the dilemma in which his hon. friend's objection would place the house, was, he was satisfied, quite enough to ensure their assent to the proposition he had the honour to submit, a proposition which had for its object the support of that increased expense of the crown, which arose not from any disposition to prodigality or extravagance, but from that enhancement in all the necessary articles of life which had taken place since the revenue of the civil list was last fixed, and of which every individual in private life must be sensible. The arrangement he proposed had no view to any advance in the quantum of magnificence, or the indulgencies which should belong to the Royal Family, as the only intention was to enable that illustrious family to maintain the rank which, according to the grant of 1786, it was admitted they ought to hold. As the only effect of the proposed addition would be to equalize their revenue to the change of circumstances which had taken place, he was confident that there was not one of the constituents of that house, who would not consider that economy extremely misplaced, which should, under such circumstances, call upon his Majesty's family to retrench their necessary expenses, or refuse assent to the proposition in debate, particularly when it was recollected, that the civil list was but a commutation which his Majesty had accepted on his accession to the throne, for a large hereditary revenue. When it was considered how long his Majesty had, happily for this country, occupied the throne, for a period longer almost than any sovereign to be found in our history; when the growth of the revenue, which he had surrendered in exchange, was taken into consideration, he was sure it would be admitted, that a call upon parliament for an advance of 60,000l. a year in his revenue, and the transfer to another fund of claims which do not at all belong to the civil list, according to its original constitution, furnished no fair ground of objection; for he begged it to be distinctly understood by that house and the public, that that branch of the hereditary revenue which had been enjoyed by his Majesty's predecessors, and in lieu of which he had thought proper to accept the civil list, had so far advanced, that it now amounted to nearly 1,500,000l. a year. From this, therefore, it appeared, that the addition of 60,000l. to 900,000l. a year, left a considerable balance in favour of the public. He would put it to the candour of the house and the country, whether any proposal could stand upon fairer grounds, whether any thing could be imagined more self-evident, and less liable to mistake? As to another point in the speech of his hon. friend, which recommended the proposition of same measure of general regulation upon a principle analogous to that upon which Mr. Burke's bill was founded, he always thought that such a measure was impracticable, and in this opinion he was confirmed, from a consideration of the nature, and a knowledge of the effects of Mr. Burke's system, which was found to be quite inapplicable.—Here the right hon. gent. took occasion to state the excess in the expence of the civil list had by no means proceeded, as his hon. friend professed to think, from an improper inattention to Burke's bill, but from finding that a change of circumstances had rendered a close attention to that measure impracticable. He hoped that his conduct for some years after the enactment of that bill was such as to shew, that if it had failed of its object, that failure was not to be attributed to the want of a sincere desire upon his part, and that of his colleagues in office, to carry it into complete execution. To the mode of classing the creditors of the civil list in the act alluded to, the govt. with which he had the honour of being connected, had always adhered. No preference was ever given to any but the royal family, the judges, and the foreign ministers, and upon all the other classes the debt was suffered to fall in equal proportion. The right hon. gent. however, dwelt upon the consequences which would result from a rigid adherence to the letter of this act, particularly in regard to the extinction of a debt which should be suffered to go a certain number of quarters in arrear. This strictly acted upon would, he apprehended, expose the royal family themselves to have their salaries stopped. The measure altogether was not reducible to practice, nor did he think any thing of a similar nature would be effectual. All he thought advisable or necessary was, that in case the civil list should at any future time be in debt, and he could not pretend to provide against such an event, parliament should be immediately apprized of the existence of such a debt. For this purpose, he would have no objection to introduce a clause into the act, which was meant to be grounded upon the resolution of the committee. Such a clause, enjoining, that whenever the civil list should contract a debt of a specified amount, or whenever it should be a certain time in arrear, the fact should be laid before parliament. This appeared to him to be the most simple mode of proceeding, and the only plan that occurred to him as necessary. After the circumstance of the debt should be laid before parliament, then it would become a subject for consideration what course to follow. Further particulars might be called for, and the fullest investigation might take place, if it should appear to be necessary. As to the explanation required by his hon. friend respecting the aid derived to the civil list from the 4½ per cent. duties, and other funds, he could state to his hon. friend and the house, that this aid was insignificant indeed. Adverting to the advances made to the Duke of Clarence and Gen. Gardiner, the right hon. gent. presumed that it would be found the stipulated installments were deducted from their salaries. He did not mean to state it positively, as he had made no inquiry on the subject.—With respect to the principle of occasionally advancing money to persons connected with the civil list, where the cause appeared to be pressing, and not otherwise, he differed widely from the opinion of his hon. friend. Such advances, he admitted, should be made only upon extraordinary occasions; but in point of fact, the advances alluded to by his hon. friend were not of such amount, as much to alarm the jealousy of the house upon this subject. As to the allusions of his hon. friend to the several items of the accounts on the table, he must say, that he was not prepared to satisfy him; but he was at liberty to move for any document he thought necessary to the full explanation of the points he referred to. With many or most of the points adverted to by his hon. friend, he had no immediate concern, but yet he had no doubt that they could all be satisfactorily accounted for. He wished the hon. gent. the house, and the country, clearly to comprehend every part of the statement, and that every light should be thrown upon it. He had no other desire than that it should be probed to the bottom, in order that it should be seen, that the application he had the honour to submit, was the result of a real unavoidable necessity, and in no part of the expenditure had govt. ceased to exercise a proper and vigilant control. Feeling a just solicitude for the credit of his Majesty's govt. it was his anxious wish, that every means should be taken to satisfy the country of the truth of the facts he had stated. There were many parts of the household, in which the estimate was lower than was formerly fixed, particularly in the Board of Works. In that department an increased expenditure had been incurred within the two last years, which was not likely to recur again. It arose from the fitting up of apartments for the accommodation of some of the branches of his Majesty's family. In this department, and also in many others, he had felt it his duty to draw up a reduced estimate. He hoped it would not be found too late, and that in his endeavour to prevent unnecessary expence, he should not expose himself to the charge of laying a delusive statement before the house, or of contributing to reduce the just claims of any description of persons.

agreed, that the most proper mode of answering the observations of the hon. gent. on the other side (Mr. Bankes), was to produce the documents explaining the particulars of the expenditure. No part of the 40,000l. charged under the head of extra extraordinaries, was expended for secret service; it was expended for an object which was not already sufficiently provided for according to its importance; he meant our diplomatic service, a line in which it was essential to encourage men of talents, rank, and fortune to engage. The insufficiency of the present establishment was the cause of this arrear being incurred. As to the two sums of 10,000l. and 11,000l. for the special service of the colonies in the years 1803–4, according to the provisions of Mr. Burke's bill, the particulars of this expenditure was kept in a book which was laid before the house, by an address to his Majesty, as often as it was thought proper to examine it, and referred to a committee. This book had been laid on the table, in consequence of such an address, in 1802; and it was now open to any gent. who wished to have it produced, by adopting the same course. In the mean time he could assure gent. the expenses were of the usual nature. He did suppose that the right hon. gent. so frequently alluded to, when this subject was under consideration, was aware of the impossibility of strictly executing his own act. He had a right to conclude so, because the right hon. gent. was in the house when a motion was made, in a year or two after the passing of the act, for a sum in aid of the civil list, and he did not oppose the grant. The right hon. gent. s object certainly was, that the bill should operate as a control, by compelling the explanation of every thing to parliament, and it had so operated. As to the accommodation given to a branch of the royal family and Gen. Gardiner, under an engagement that it should be repaid, though he was not a party to it, he knew it to be extremely proper. He believed, that, considering all circumstances, the addition of 60,000l. would be found extremely moderate. The proposition of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would accomplish what he himself had intended, inasmuch as it would cause an account of every arrear, and an estimate of every contingent expense of the civil list to be laid before parliament, and none could be incurred without the knowledge of the house. The advance to the branch of the royal family would be no charge to the public, only 7000l. of it remained now unsatisfied. The only great question for the house was, whether the dignity and comfort of the British crown were to be provided for in a manner suitable to the rank of the nation; not in any wanton manner, for there was no excess of splendor in the British crown. The household expenditure for tradesmen's bills was most essentially connected with the comfort of the sovereign and his family. The mode now proposed to be adopted on this head was the same that he had ventured to recommend with respect to the other branches of the royal family; and he believed that, in considering the expense under this head, the only matter of surprize would be, that there was so much splendour at so little charge. On comparing the sums granted in aid of the civil list, with the produce of the hereditary revenue given up by the King, if there could be a matter of account between the sovereign and his people, the people were gainers. The application now made was an appeal to more than the generosity of the house, and he was sure the house would have no difficulty in acceding to it. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer acted wisely, in not laying down any limitation. The best mode was to submit every occasional necessity to the control of parliament. Having made the motion for referring this matter to a committee, and holding himself responsible for the charge, he thought it his duty to make this explanation, and to declare his readiness to support the measure.

declared, that nothing was more alien from the intentions of his revered friend (Mr. Burke), than to cut off by any precise rule any part of the becoming splendor of the British crown: his object was to secure the cognizance and control of every arrear and excess of the civil list to parliament. He approved of the present plan, but he could not subscribe to one reason given by some for the propriety of aiding the civil list. If by the commutation of the hereditary revenue for a fixed sum the public were gainers, it should be recollected that his Majesty had a fair option, and had made his choice. The advantage of the exchange ought not, therefore, to be continually stated as a ground of just remuneration. He agreed in the propriety of encouraging, by respectable provisions, the entrance Of men of talent, fortune, rank, and character, into the diplomatic corps. The services of such men were particularly necessary to us in that line, in the present circumstances; and it was because we were so unfortunate as not to have such men, that we had so little influence with the continental powers.

.—I rise, Sir, in obedience to the duty I owe the public and myself to offer to the consideration of the house those reasons which render it impossible for me to take that view of the important subject before us which the right hon. gent. the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done, or to adopt the sentiments, which, I regret to say, seem to be acquiesced in by the majority of those who hear me.—It must be conceded to me, that the present period is peculiarly inauspicious to the discussion of a subject of this kind. These are times, Sir, of such extraordinary pressure, and of such individual difficulty and general distress, that every demand upon the public purse requires to be anxiously looked to and investigated with the utmost vigilance and circumspection. I feel it, I say, impossible to agree to the arguments advanced by the right hon. gent. because I know that the necessities of the times are great and urgent; that the price of every necessary article of life is high beyond example; and that the pressure is felt not only among the lower and the middling classes of society, but even among the highest ranks of the state. I cannot agree with the right hon. gent. in his inference, that the pressure of the times attaching to the higher orders, is a reason why we ought to impose still greater burdens on the people, in order to relieve those who feel them in a lesser proportion. I never can approve of this mode of reasoning. As the present period is one when every man feels his comforts diminished, and those enjoyments he has been long used to abridged, by the weight of taxes which his utmost exertion can scarcely sustain, I should certainly say, that whoever administers the govt. of the country ought to economies the public resources, and put up with some of those inconveniencies which the mass of the people suffer. Comparatively light indeed must those evils fall on persons in that rank of life.—I do not mean to say that any part of the royal family ought to be inconvenienced by the pressure of the times; but I do consider, that the money granted by the liberality of parliament for the expenses of the civil list is ample enough to relieve every branch of that family, if due attention be paid to the expenditure of the money so granted. What I complain of is, that there appears to me to be a scandalous waste of the public money; and the minister of govt. himself confesses; that with respect to the extraordinaries of the civil list, he has acted contrary to law, but that it was impossible to do otherwise. Better and more constitutional I think it would have been to have had the law restraining the excess of the civil list repealed, than to have acted in open defiance of its letter, and in violation of its principle. It is with the deepest concern I observe, that a debt which is always paying off, should be thus continually increasing; but I am persuaded it never will be otherwise it this house allow ministers to go on just as they think proper, and without subjecting them to that necessary control which can alone keep them within the limits of economy. While ministers retain the power of wantonly and arbitrarily disposing of the public money with impunity, it is net to be expected in men of their character, that profusion will be checked by considerations arising from the public distress.—I observe with infinite regret, that no inconsiderable proportion of the revenue of the country is expended in pensions, and the profits of sinecure places. On adverting to the list of those who derive emolument from such sources, I find it does not present the name of a single person who can allege any legitimate claim founded upon the performance of any public service. We ought to see rewards of this kind bestowed on men who have performed meritorious services for their country; but whenever such instances have occurred, they have uniformly been brought before this house for the purpose of making them the objects of particular remuneration out of the public fund, independently of the civil list. I should think that the bounty of the crown would be better applied in rewarding real merit, and thereby saving an extraordinary expense to the public.—It has been the practice, when men have bravely exerted themselves in their country's cause, to come to parliament for the reward they have merited. I do not think that upon such occasions, this house has been so generous as it ought to have been Knowing as I do what lucrative places some hold who have done nothing to deserve them, I must own that I feel no slight degree of indignation at seeing such men as Lord Nelson, who has achieved immortal honour, and Lord Hutchinson, the conqueror of Egypt, recompensed with only 2000l. a year. I observe with resentment, such a man as Sir Sidney Smith, to whom the country is so much indebted, rewarded so inadequately as he has been, at least in comparison with those persons who are basking his the sunshine of ministerial patronage.—When the people of England are called on for daily sacrifices; when they are told by ministers that the sacrifices they have made are nothing to those which they must submit to; when the country is engaged in a war, of the end of which no man can form a conjecture; when the people are oppressed with taxes and exactions which they are unable to bear; and when the privations they endure exceed what the most despondent could every have imagined, surely it is a little hard to hear it said, that the burden of taxation is a reason why those who so sorely feel it should have it aggravated, for the purpose of relieving those who, from their situations, must feel less of the public distress and calamity than any other description of persons in the country.—I for one can never give my consent to vote one farthing for the relief of the debts of the civil list, which ought never to have been contracted. But my most serious objection to the vote proposed, refers to the unconstitutional application of the public money. I advert to the sums advanced to the princes of the blood without the consent of parliament. I do not think it decent or becoming that the princes of England should be dependant on the minister of the day. If they wanted relief, they ought to have made application to the house of commons, and not condescend to receive bounties from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I re-collect, however, and the reflection gives me pain, that whenever they have applied to this house in a constitutional way, for that relief to which they were entitled, their claims have been rejected. This has been particularly evinced in the applications of that illustrious member of the family who enjoys, as he deserves, the particular affection and confidence of the people; and is therefore, perhaps, an object of jealousy to some. But whenever these princes have appealed to ministers privately, that assistance has been unconstitutionally granted which ought only to have flowed from parliament. It is a subject of regret and surprise, that what parliament has refused, should be bestowed by ministerial influence. I cannot make up my mind to grant any of the public money for the purpose proposed this night; I consider this but a preliminary step to the imposition of a permanent burden on the country, and calculated to prevent ministers from being answerable for the application of the funds intrusted to their management.—The report on the table states, that for the unforeseen expences of the civil list, there should be a vote of credit. I think, that at a crisis like the present, when it is necessary to consult the minds of all men, when it is important that the people should think that those who govern them have an interest in their welfare, it is too much to tell them that, on account of the takes they pay already, they ought to pay more. It may be, that when the country is prosperous, and flourishing, the executive govt. is entitled to participate in its advantages; but I cannot suppose the converse of this proposition holds good; and that when misfortunes and difficulties are brought upon the country, those who are the authors of them; should be the only persons exempted from their effects. The idea would be absurd and dangerous to countenance, that govt. should plead the public calamity they produce, as a reason for the augmentation of their own salaries. The right hon. proposer of this motion has pompously boasted upon this, as upon other occasions, of the advantages resulting to this country from the conduct of the present reign; but with respect to this boast, I would only call upon any candid man to determine, from a fair comparison of the situation of this country at present, and that in which it was placed upon the King's accession to the throne. At the former period, the whole of the public debt did not exceed 105,000,000l., and the taxes amounted to nearly 23 millions; at present, the debt is little short of 600 millions, and the taxes exceed 60 millions. Surely, no man win venture to assert, that our commerce has kept pace with this accumulation of our burdens. How has this enormous sum been expended? What has the country gained to compensate for such expenditure? Nothing, but what has been purloined from the unhappy natives of India, with a few islands, the benefit of which to this country is very doubtful. What have we lost? We have been deprived of the immense and growing country of America, the population of which, being the descendants of Englishmen, and far removed from the taint of modern corruption, would not endure to be slaves. Within the period I have referred to, the expense of the civil list alone has amounted to at least 50 millions; that is little less than half the public debt at his Majesty's accession. To what purposes has this immense sum been applied? Certainly not to the purpose of magnificence, as the right hon. gent. has truly stated, for of that the people have seen nothing. If in magnificence, there would perhaps be less reason to complain; if in the patronage of the arts, or the encouragement of institutions of public benefit, some return would have been made to the country for the salary allowed, and one would have been able to account for the cause of these frequent applications to parliament to discharge the arrears of the civil list. Upon this part of the subject I should dwell more at length if I were not unwilling to trespass on the attention of the house, and if I were not satisfied that the other facts I have it in my power to adduce respecting the present reign, must be in the recollection of this house and the country.—I have given my opinion, because I thought the house seemed disinclined to take up the subject in the point of view in which it has struck me. I repeat, that feeling the pressure of the times, and the misapplication of the public money, I am averse to every thing that has a tendency to increase our difficulties. I am however far from wishing to make a general declamation against every species of taxation.—I am of opinion, on the contrary, that taxation, properly applied, may be as beneficial as the moisture absorbed by the sun from the earth, which, falling, again in rains and dews, fertilizes the soil. But how different that taxation, which is extorted from the industry of the people, and applied only to corrupt their morals and undermine their freedom! Such is the system which has been the ruin of other countries, and is likely to be the ruin of this, if the constitutional interposition of parliament does not prevent it. Convinced then that the proposition of this night is ill timed, dangerous, and contrary to the best principles of our free govt., I shall not hesitate in giving it my most decided negative.

was of opinion, that all those estimates should be separated from the civil list, that did not belong immediately to the dignity and splendor of the crown. He could not agree with the hon. bart. that the monarch ought not to be supported in periods particularly where extraordinary expenditure was necessary. He would appeal to the French, if they had not found their situation worse, and their expenses increased, notwithstanding the resistance they had made to their old govt. He did not wish, he said, to see the comforts and conveniencies of their sovereign abridged in any degree, nor that dignity which ought to accompany his rank, in any way diminished. No private gent. he thought, could give an exact statement of his probable expences for any one year, was it then to be wondered at, if every item of expenditure belonging to the civil list, could not be accurately foreseen?

supported the motion. He thought the gain by the hereditary revenue, placed the public on the safe side.—The resolution was agreed to.

, in rising to move for a grant of 310,000l. for additional expenses in the naval department, did not think it necessary to trouble the committee at length. He would merely state, that 150,000l. of this sum was for three ships, vessels from 40 to 60 guns; the rest was for sloops, gun-vessels, and mortars, thought necessary for the present service by the admiralty board, and purchased or contracted for since the 15th of May.

wished to know, whether a further sum for the maintenance of seamen would not be required. In March there were 89,000 seamen, and 12,000 marines, in the service. If the due proportion of the marines was filled up, the whole would be 115,000. There were then 104,000 seamen and marines; the manning of this additional service would require a still greater number; he wished to know whether there was to be an additional vote?

said, that no considerable addition of numbers would be necessary so as to require a vote?—Several other resolutions were then moved, to which the house agreed, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.

moved, that the house do resolve itself into a committee of ways and means. The house having gone into the committee, the right hon. gent. called their attention to the subject of the Duties on Stamps. It would be recollected, he observed, that in the early part of the session, a right hon. gent. (Mr. Addington) had taken credit for the sum of between 7 and 800,000l. for paying off the charges on the loan. This he had proposed to do, by creating an additional duty on stamps. Though the manner in which that proposal was stated to the house might have appeared feasible to that right hon. gent. in theory, he was well assured it could never be accomplished. It had been found difficult to class the several duties, and therefore the right hon. gent.'s plan could not be brought forward, nor was it likely that the sum proposed to be raised, could be raised by the rate of duties which he had stated to the house. What he should therefore propose for the consideration of the committee, would be a considerable increase of the present stamp duties. In the increased duties would be comprehended all law proceedings, civil and ecclesiastical, bills of exchange, notes, transfer of property, money bonds, &c. These were the most material.—As the debate had been procrastinated to a late hour, he would not detain the committee, but deliver in the schedule, which contained an ample statement of the various items; which schedule might be printed, and gent. would then have an opportunity of viewing and considering the whole, and upon the bringing up of the report, the discussion might take place.

observed, that the right hon. gent. must be aware that what he had originally proposed, embraced 3 objects; 1st, an augmentation of the duties; next, a classification of those duties; and 3dly, the necessity of subjecting the persons liable to pay those duties to a tax ad valorem. These objects, he was of opinion, were desirable to be attained, and with respect to the first, he was happy to find, that the amount had produced nearly enough to cover the charges on the loan. As to the possibility of classing the rates of duties, he was of opinion no considerable difficulty would arise; but, however, on that he did not mean to insist. He trusted, the right hon. gent. would turn his attention to the ad valorem duty, which he was satisfied would be productive of much benefit to the revenue.

was apprehensive the plan of the right hon. gent. would be attended with difficulty; he was, however, desirous of considering whether or not it could be carried into effect. He was not aware how it was possible to affix the precise rates of taxation, so as to meet the ideas of the right hon. gent., and ultimately benefit the revenue.

thought that one of the greatest evils under which this country laboured was, that of the law being rendered almost inaccessible to the lower classes of society, by the expenses which attended law suits on account of stamps.—The resolution was then read and agreed to, pro forma, and the house being resumed, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.—Adjourned.