expressed his doubts whether the Loyalty Loan-holders would avail themselves of this proposal. He bore testimony to the good intentions of the right hon. proposer, but was far from thinking it fair to leave it at the discretion of the lords of the treasury to discharge this demand with any description of stock they pleased. It was more than probable they would choose 5 per cent. stock, which was very unmarketable, compared to the other stocks, and of which there were already 28 millions in existence. What then must be its state, when the Loyalty Loan should be added to it? It was at present at a discount of 9 per cent. and it was fair to presume, that with the proposed addition that discount would be augmented at least 2 or 3 per cent. This depreciation would of course fall upon such as might receive this stock, particularly as they were to be precluded from a transfer until April. It would be fairer, in his opinion, to reverse the arrangement, and to give the Loyalty Loan-holders the option of fixing upon the stock with which their claims should be adjusted. They should be allowed to choose either in the 5 per cents. the 3 per cents. or the reduced annuities. In either of the two latter the holders might make time bargains, an advantage of which they could not avail themselves in the former. The reduced annuities, he was disposed to think, would be preferable, because they formed the smaller stock. This preference he was pretty certain all persons concerned in the Loyalty Loan would concur in, were they advised of the measure before the committee; and in his opinion they ought to be consulted before this measure was carried into effect. The hon. member said, he was surprised to hear the right hon. gent. state, that there was no probability of any alteration in the price of stocks between this and April next. On the contrary, he thought that, from the state of the country, and the small amount of the vote of credit, a very considerable sum would become necessary at the beginning of the next sessions. This would of course produce a material effect upon the price of stocks. The hon. member repeated his opinion, that the greater part, if not all, of those claimants would rather, notwithstanding the bonus held out, wait until the next sessions for the total discharge of their demands.

denied that he had stated any opinion so rash as that imputed to him by the hon. gent. that no difference in the price of stocks would take place before April. This was a circumstance which must depend on events upon which no man could speculate. With respect to the hon. member's allusion to an application for a considerable loan at the commencement of the next sessions, the right hon. gent. could see no ground from which the right hon. member could conclude that a considerable loan would be required, or that any proposition for a loan would be made at an early period. In the hon. member's comments upon the effects of an addition of the Loyalty Loan to the 5 per cents. his opinion appeared to be rather singular; for the annihilation of 22 millions of Loyalty Loan, and the proportionate increase of the 5 per cents. could not fairly be presumed as likely to affect the general rate of stocks. The right hon. gent. contended that no injury could arise to the parties concerned by vesting the proposed option in the lords of the treasury, as they were, in whatever stock was chosen, to receive 100l. for every 100l. they had originally advanced, while the consequences must be obvious of allowing any denomination of stock to be previously fixed upon. The right hon. gent. descanted upon the nature of the measure he proposed, as connected with the rapid operation of the plan for the reduction of the national debt, and bearing in view the ultimate extinction of that debt. Upon the statement of the hon. member, that he would not advise the holders of Loyalty Loan to accede to this proposal, he would only say that it would be rather strange if those gent. should refuse to receive 100l. in Oct. when by waiting until April they could get no more.

was of opinion, that the value of 100l. money in stock was not a sufficient compensation, if those to whom it was to be given were to stand the fluctuation of 6 months. He allowed, that if the state of the continent were to become more favourable, if Russia were to join with us either for peace or for war, the funds would rise; if not, they would fall between Oct. and April.

, in explanation, stated, that the whole of the 5 per cent. stock would be transferable; it would be only the new complimentary 3 per cent. stock, which would not be transerable.—The resolution was agreed to, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow.

moved the order of the day for going into a committee on this subject. The house having gone into a committee accordingly, the noble lord, in calling the attention of the committee to the accounts before them, hoped they would keep in mind the circumstances under which the affairs alluded to occurred. The account relating to the year ending the 5th of April, 1803, was the actual account of that year; and the account for the year 1804, was the estimated account for that year, according to the general custom observed in the manner of stating these matters to the house every year. The house would have to consider, in looking to these accounts, that war had commenced last year in Europe, which had affected the sales of the E. India Company; that a war of no less considerable effect had existed in India earlier in fact, but much earlier in preparation. The account of the preparation in the event of anticipated hostilities, which had been sent out in March, must have affected the sales arrived about the month of July; the account of actual hostilities, resolved on in May, must have reached India in Sept. The variation created by the preparation for war had kept the public mind afloat for 10 months, and the slowness of intelligence relating to actual hostilities, had kept them afloat from April to Oct. The preparations for the Mahratta war had originated in Oct. 1802. The principal particulars of expence under this head occurred at Bombay and Madras. It was true, hostilities had not been commenced till Aug. 1802, but the expence of preparation had been considerable. He would not enter into the general policy of the grounds of this war, nor of the advantages of its conclusion. He would proceed simply to the statements of the accounts. The statement was generally divided into 3 classes: 1st, revenues and charges; 2d, commercial investment; and 3d, debt and assets abroad and at home. And 1st, for the year of actual account, ending April 1803. The first view was the average expenditure of 3 years, compared with the actual produce of the last year; and whether from that the probable revenue of the next year would be adequate to the probable expenditure.—His lordship then read the statement, which was as follows:

This statement being concluded, the noble lord begged leave, before he sat down, to make a few general observations. He wished to call the attention of the committee to the estimates which he had brought forward for 1802–3. He had then expressed his sanguine conviction, not only that the public would receive a participation of 500,000l. but that the company, in addition to this contribution to the public, would be able to establish a sinking fund for the extinction of their debt, to the amount of 2 millions a year. When he had made this declaration, it was but fair to keep in mind, that the circumstances then existing were very different indeed from those in which the country is now placed. It was in the contemplation of the continuance of peace, that he could only look forward to the fulfilment of his expectations. But to shew that he had not proceeded on light or trivial grounds, he adverted to the estimates which he had laid down, and contrasted them with the real amount of the revenues and charges. The noble lord next proceeded to shew, that the arrangement for liquidating the debt of the company, was as strictly adhered to, as it was possible to do; and that it was not reasonable to expect more from them, unless their trade should have the good fortune to take another turn: it was rather matter of surprise, that under such circumstances they could have made such laudable exertions. Still if affairs were to assume a tranquil aspect, there was little doubt but a much more favourable result must arise. The noble lord also explained the difficulties which obstructed the repayment of the company's debts, and endeavoured to shew that these difficulties principally arose from the advances made towards the support of govt. It were much better, he observed, if these means were provided from Europe; for the rate of interest in India rendered them far more enormous. Indeed, if the whole of the accounts were fairly looked to, and also the circumstances under which they stood, he ventured to hope that a far more favourable prospect would be opened both to the company and the public than generally seemed to be expected.—The noble lord concluded by moving the first resolution.

alluded to the repeated promises given by the predecessor of the noble lord, respecting the prosperity of the affairs of India. The house had been many years ago assured that India would not only be freed from all embarrassment, but would actually be able to administer relief to the financial demands of the empire at large. Their were assured that not only would aid be afforded to the public, but that the whole Indian debt would speedily be extinguished. He wished the committee to reflect how these fine promises had been realized. Since these promises had first been brought forward, the Indian debt, it was known, had increased three or four fold. In 1793, when the charter of the company was renewed, a stipulation was made, that 500,000l. should annually, after a certain period, be paid to the public. Of the sum so stipulated for, not one sixpence had been, or was likely to be received. He wished to ask, on what foundation the promises held forth were supported, and when or where the public might, in reason, hope to see them realized. The debt of the company, so far from being diminished, accumulates from year to year. Last year it was 18 millions, and by the papers now on the table it would appear that it was upwards of 19 millions, with every prospect of a still greater accumulation. The noble lord alluded to the state of the account betwixt the company and govt. Last year the debt due by govt. to the company was estimated at something more than 4 millions. At that time a million had been discharged, and still the balance against govt. was not diminished according to the statements contained in the papers on the table. He thought this a very extraordinary circumstance, and called on the noble lord to afford some explanation on the subject. Before he sat down, he read a part of the speech of the noble lord in 1802, where the most sanguine views of the prosperity of the company's affairs was held forth. He hoped the noble lord now saw that these representations rested on no solid grounds, and would henceforth he less sanguine in his expectations.

explained that part of the statement which respected the account betwixt the company and govt. The noble lord declared that he adhered to all his former declarations, as to the prosperity of the affairs of the company, and was ready gravely to renew any pledge which he had formerly given to the house.

maintained, that the affairs of the company were, year after year, growing more embarrassed. Not a single one of the promises or prospects held forth by the noble lord's predecessor, or the noble lord himself, had been in the slightest degree fulfilled. The noble lord's predecessor had, after his magnificent statements of the flourishing situation of the company's affairs, retired from office, leaving their debt greatly accumulated, and giving as his only legacy a serious advice to reduce it. The noble lord himself followed strictly his predecessor's example in the views he gave of the company's affairs. Like him he abounded in magnificent promises and flattering prospects, but like him he had, in every instance, found himself altogether disappointed. The hon. gent. shewed that the debt of the company was rapidly accumulating. He took the average of 5 years from the year 1799, shewed that in each year there had been a large accumulation of debt, and stated as the result, that in the course of these 5 years the company's debt had increased upwards of 11 millions. This statement he desired the noble lord, or any member of the committee, to disprove; and he asked every gent. whether this was not a complete evidence that all the representations given of the company's affairs were altogether fallacious and unfounded? He insisted that the service of the company could not go on without new loans; and that a new loan must be negotiated next year in India. He argued, that the statements of the charges on the company were quite delusive. The most prominent charges were only brought, forward, while all the heads of extraordinary service, which were very numerous, were carefully kept out of view. The hon. member supported his arguments by a number of minute calculations, and sat down with declaring, that the affairs of the company were far from being so flourishing as they were represented to be.

observed, that the hon. gent. did not make a proper allowance for the expenditure which the company were unavoidably subject to in time of war. He had, besides that, omitted to make any deduction on account of the assets which the company were possessed of. These were inaccuracies which it was necessary for the hon. gent. to take into his more serious consideration. He was fully aware that the question was of a most complicated nature, and every gent. did not sufficiently attend to such complex statements as were then before the house, to be in full possession of the various changes which arose in the course of such accounts. If the hon. gent. was to revolve these considerations in his own mind more at leisure, it was more than probable that he would be induced to alter his opinion. We had an European, and we had an Asiatic war in the course of the year. It should be also recollected, that shortly after the Mysore, we had to undergo the expences of the Mahratta war. Though that war did not actually break out until August last, preparations were made a considerable length of time before hostilities were actually commenced; the first preparatory steps by which expences were incurred, he understood, were taken in the mouth of May, 1802. Upon the whole, it would be found that, exclusive of the charges of a complicated war, the actual amount of debt contracted within the year, did not exceed 300,000l. If the increased amount of debt were considerably more than such a sum as he had mentioned, he could not think that even then it was a fair criterion by which we should be authorised to form any judgment respecting the resources of the company, or the general state of their finances. It was evident, that in time of war, there must be some difficulty in transmitting bullion from Europe to the East. And when we looked at the extended commerce, and the increased revenue of the company, we must be convinced, that borrowing, under such circumstances, was the necessary result of the increased opulence and growing power. The universal prospect of the state of our affairs in India, must present a flattering picture to the company themselves, and be most grateful to the feelings of every Englishman.

said, he did not mean to go into the general detail of the question, but merely to make one observation on a paper which he held in his hand, to which the noble lord had alluded with respect to a balance of 900,000l. due from govt. to the E. India Company, which had been allowed by the commissioners. He wished the noble lord to put the house in possession of the principle upon which such claims had been allowed. Without such a standard, it was impossible to say where they would rest, as they might be extended to every species of expedition that might be undertaken by the company, purely for their own benefit, and the security of their possessions. He hoped, therefore, that the noble lord would explain the progress that had been made by the commissioners.

in reply, stated, that the commissioners had not yet decided on more of the sums claimed than to the extent of 900,000l. The accounts relative to the expedition to Egypt, had not arrived till this year, by which one million was added to the claims of the company, upon which no decision could yet have been formed. It was extremely difficult to determine what part of the expence of joint operations, should be charged on the respective parties, and he should despair of bringing the account to a final settlement, if he was not to rely on the liberality of the public; and he had every reason to trust, that the whole account would be prepared for the consideration of parliament before next session.

in addition to what had been stated by his noble friend, thought it right just to observe, that no idea had ever been entertained of a final adjustment of the accounts by the commissioners. They had been appointed only to examine into the claims for the purpose of facilitating the final adjustment. But the result of their enquiry, as well as the items and total amount of the claims, would be submitted to the eventual consideration of parliament.

was relieved from considerable anxiety by what had fallen from the right hon. gent., as, if the decision of the commissioners was to be final, he should enter his protest against such a proceeding. As he was up, he desired to know, whether the noble lord would pledge himself, that no increase should take place in the exportation of bullion to the East Indies in the present year?

flattered himself that the event of the sales in this country would enable the company to export a considerable quantity of bullion, and was of opinion that it would be most advantageous to the company to send out as large a quantity of it as possible.

contended, that from the failure of the estimates for the last 5 years, during which there had been an interval of 18 months peace, there must be something extraordinary in the manner of making them up. They had failed on both sides, both as to the amount of the proceeds and the extent of the charges; and there must be, therefore some inherent radical fallacy at the bottom, which was not to be attributed to any particular persons, but to the whole system, in not making the proper allowance for the management of the affairs of a great empire. The learned member then proceeded to comment on some items of the estimates. He contended, that if the duties on teas were so high as to injure the sale, by diminishing the consumption, they ought to be lowered, and as for access to the markets on the continent, he looked upon that as more completely barred at present than at any former period. As to the assets to which the noble lord had referred, he could not look upon them while warehoused and deprived of a vent as available to any purpose of advantage to the company, and he stated this merely to shew the fallacy of taking the whole amount of the company's possessions into the estimate of available property.

declared that he was surprised to hear the hon. and learned gent. suppose that the expenses of a war were at an end immediately after the termination of war.

thought that the affairs of India deserved the most minute investigation. He was not to be told that the time of danger and war was improper for an enquiry into such matters, when the interests of the empire were so materially concerned. When the report was brought up he would take an opportunity of expressing himself fully and calmly upon the subject, and would deduce no consequences but from the papers already on the table.

.—Sir; I owe it in gratitude to the distinguished few, who have had fortitude enough to favour us with their attendance, and possibly with their attention to this hour, to let them know that they are safe, at least on my part, from any very heavy addition to the burthen they have already submitted to with so much equanimity. A long speech now could have no effect, but reduce the audience to nothing. Neither is it necessary. A year ago, when the affairs of India were under the consideration of a committee of the whole house very like the present, I entered fully into the subject; and I took care that what I then said should be conveyed to the proprietors of India stock and to the public, with all the accuracy and authenticity, that I could give to my opinion by vouching for it in writing. Nothing has since occurred to induce me to recede from any part of that opinion, or from any of the principles, which I have hitherto maintained with regard to India. On the contrary, every new fact that appears, and every fresh light we obtain, serves only to confirm the declaration I then made, that the mischief was in a state of progression, and to convince me that the case is a good deal worse than it was a year ago. My intention however is to avoid repetitions, to take notice only of some particulars mentioned by the noble lord, as they occur to me, and proceed as quickly as I can to that conclusion, which is the principal object of my addressing the committee. The noble lord regrets that the sanguine and satisfactory expectations, given by him to the public last year, have not been realized, and he places the failure to the account of the Mahratta war, which, he says, has been conducted on a very extensive and expensive scale, which must disturb all estimates; that this war is the most expensive military transaction, in which the company was ever engaged; that the increase of charge, amounting to about a million, was mostly of a military nature, and unforeseen; and that, although the actual hostilities did not commence till August 1803, the preparation for the war began early in November 1802, and even then created a heavy expence.—Sir; if the noble lord himself had not introduced the Mahratta war, for the purpose of accounting for a failure in his estimates, I should have carefully avoided it; because I consider it as a subject reserved for a future discussion, when the materials are before us. The papers are not yet printed, nor likely to be, for many weeks. I have never seen one of them. The fact now stated deserves special attention. It appears that the orders, for our army to take the field, were given in the beginning of November 1802; and surely I have a right to presume that the project of the war must have been under deliberation, and the plan of it concerted sometime before those orders were given; and that consequently the war itself, which commenced in August last, could not have been unexpectedly forced upon us, by the spur of an unforeseen occasion, or by the sudden pressure of an instant, or unavoidable necessity. Yet, when I moved for the papers first on the 14th of March, and afterwards on the 6th of last April, the committee will recollect that neither the company nor govt. were then in possession of the circumstances, which preceded the rupture, and that no communication whatever on the subject had been received from India. I shall dismiss it now with only one observation, which has no relation to the justice or policy of the war, but is particularly applicable to the present debate. If the preparation for the war, in November 1802, and so long before it commenced, has been sufficient to disturb his lordship's estimates, and to defeat his expectations, what are you to expect from the war itself, when the accounts of the actual expence attending it shall be fairly and fully brought into view! It seems he had calculated that, in this month, the public would receive their participation in the Indian revenues; but unfortunately his hopes have been disappointed by the war abroad, and by the diminution of sales at home. Sir, the day must come, when it shall be examined, and, if possible, explained, why the public has never received more than one year's participation in the revenues of India since the renewal of the charter in 1793, and particularly why that single payment was made in the first year, and never since; considering that it was one of the essential conditions, on which the charter was renewed. There is some mystery in this part of the transaction. The noble lord says that govt. had no legal claim on this account, because the net proceeds of the company's sales, (alter providing for other charges, which stood first in point of order,) did not furnish a surplus, out of which the participation of 500,000l. a year, to which the public were intitled by law, could be defrayed. Very likely. But then I say that, besides all our other relations to the object, and independent of the general duty, by which we are bound to watch the govt. of India and the management of the company's affairs, this is an additional pecuniary argument and interest, that obliges parliament to inquire how it happens that, out of a territorial revenue of 13 millions, added to the profits of a flourishing trade at home, there is no surplus to snake good to the public so inconsiderable a share in that immense receipt, as half a million a year. The govt. it is said, have no legal demand; because the produce is absorbed before the public right accrues. It may be so. But, without a parliamentary examination, how is it possible for us to know whether the failure, by which that right is defeated, be owing to an intolerable mismanagement, or even to a criminal waste of the resources abroad, or, bonâ fide, to just and unavoidable expences? The result of such waste, or of such expence, may always be pleaded, legally, in bar of the public. "We have spent the money. Of course you have no claim." This house is trustee for the nation, and ought not to be satisfied with such an answer. The noble lord admits that, on the whole of the company's concerns, in India there has been, in the last year, a deterioration to the amount of 657,000l. which he attributes to an increase of charge, amounting to something less than a million, mostly of a military nature and unforeseen; and also, that the company's sales of tea have fallen short of the estimated sales by above two millions of pounds weight, owing to the additional duties lately laid on that article. This, Sir, is a melancholy fact. It at once reduces the public revenue and the company's commercial profits; and, what is worse, it shows that, since the consumption is certainly not lessened, the trade is falling again into the hands of the smugglers. But the noble lord looks forward to better times, and relies with a confidence, that seems to be attached to his station, on the flourishing circumstances abroad, which are to arise hereafter from the acquisitions made in the present war. Our Indian prosperity is always in the future tense. I must do him the justice to admit that, in every respect but one, he seems to me to be the full and legitimate successor of the noble lord, who for many years presided at the same board. He has succeeded to the office, to the promises, to the hopes, to the estimates, to the sanguine disposition of that noble lord, and to his perpetual disappointments. Now, Sir, it is rather odd that, in the course of 21 years, the result in any year has never made good the promise of the preceding. Much less have the general promises made to the nation by the act of 1793, by which the charter was renewed, been realised, or, in all appearance, ever will. But then there was always a good reason for it. Only wait another year, and every thing will come right. In one article only, the noble Lord has not accepted the succession to his predecessor. He has not taken upon him the specific engagement so often and so regularly repeated in this house from year to year, exactly in the following terms, "To save any gentleman the trouble of putting the question to me, whether I adhere to the hopes, I gave last year, that the day is much nearer, when the resources of India will administer aid to the revenues of this country than that, on which we are to apprehend that India will call for aid from the finances of Great-Britain, I anticipate the question, and answer in the affirmative. The only difference is that I am more sanguine in those hopes, than I was at the time I first asserted them," and so on in every succeeding year in the same strain, till he resigned in 1801. To the specific question put to the noble Lord by my noble friend near me, (Lord Archibald Hamilton,) whether he took that engagement upon himself, he made no reply. But, in a general way, his hopes and his estimates are as good as ever. We are to be reimbursed and enriched, some day or other, by the territorial acquisitions made in this war. I ask him a plain question. Have any acquisitions made by war in the last 20 years, paid the expences of the war, provided for all the new establishments, and left a surplus applicable to trade or tribute through the medium of investment? No. So far from it, that whereas the pretended plan and promise of the act of 1793 was to reduce the company's Indian debt to 2 millions sterling, it was 20 millions a year ago, though 2 millions are said to have been bought up by the commissioners of the sinking fund. Since the promise of an annual reduction, the real increase of debt has exceeded 2 millions a year communibus annis; And now we have a new war, on a most extensive and expensive scale, the charge of which cannot yet be known here, but which, I suppose, will appear in the accounts of the present year or in those of the next. One of the first effects, and indeed a singular feature of this war of acquisition, is very odd and unaccountable.—There is a prince in the Guzzerat, called the Gwicowar, whose territory, I presume, is ceded or mortgaged to the company, to pay them for their trouble, or to indemnify them for their expences. You would naturally suppose that the fund was productive, and in some degree answered the purpose. What real effective profit it may produce hereafter, is, at least, very uncertain. But the first transaction we have with this Gwicowar is to lend him money, to the amount of 186,000, as the noble Lord states it; but as it is stated by the govt. of Bombay, (who lent the money), among their extraordinary nary disbursements, (viz. Bombay rupees 31,25,944) it really amounts to 360,000l.

The noble Lord has a reason ready for every thing; but, I think, he gave no explanation of the causes of this loan. Remember the debts of the Nabob of Arcot. The committee will observe that there is a constant annual export of bullion by the India company to China of about 650,000l. a year. Of that trade, so detrimental in a national view, I shall say nothing, because I presume there is no remedy. If you will have tea, you must pay for it in specie. The object, to which I endeavoured to draw the attention of the committee last year, is the enormous extraction of bullion to India. In the last year, it must have amounted to 900,000l. at the least. The presidencies of Fort William and Fort St. George, in their estimate of resources for the year ending on the 30th of April 1804, reckon upon bullion expected to be received from England, as part of their ways and means applicable to current services, equal to 640,000l. and so they go on. You have a military wasting establishment of 20,000 Europeans in India to be kept up by a perpetual supply of recruits from Britain; and, in aid of that and other expences, there is and must be an annual remittance of specie. I desire you to consider whether England can support these perpetual drains of men and treasure; and, if she could, what is the real effective benefit in a national view, of holding this Indian dominion on such terms? The noble Lord meets all questions of this sort with great equanimity. He says it is better economy to send out money, than to borrow it in India at the high interest of that country. If that were all, I should think it very little worth inquiring which of the two was the shortest road to ruin; or I should leave it to the directors to settle that question for the company. But, I say, you do both. The specie you send out is absorbed in expences, and the govts. abroad go on as usual, drawing heavy bills on the directors, and borrowing on the spot to any amount, for which lenders can be found. Hitherto it has been generally understood that the country, which receives its balance from another in specie, is the gainer; and that which pays it is the loser by their mutual intercourse. If bullion had been imported from India into England, we should have heard another story, set off with many fine phrases.—I shall now, Sir, take a short notice of some particulars in the home account, and then proceed to my conclusion. In the computation of the company's stock, the apparent balance is in their favour, and is stated at 5,675,379l.—but by an order of the house of commons, which I have sufficiently explained to the committee and to the public a year ago, the capital subscribed by the proprietors, and actually received by the corporation, viz. 7,780,000l. is omitted on the debit side, where it should and always did appear. I suppose it might have excited some alarm, or at least some curiosity, if the balance on the face of the account had been left on the wrong side. In the opposite credits, which include the whole of what the noble lord calls the company's assets, there are some very important and other very questionable items. This word assets is handy and convenient; but I do not think that, with reference to these accounts, it is distinctly understood or properly applied. In a testamentary senses, in which it is most commonly used, it signifies a sufficiency, either in cash, or in property convertible into cash, to discharge debts and legacies. Any species of property, which does not possess that quality, does not properly fall within the description of assets. Passive credits cannot fairly be opposed to active debts. With plenty of such credits on his books, a wealthy merchant may find himself a bankrupt, it he has no other means to satisfy the bills which he has accepted. In this view, I take it, the India Company are not much the richer for many articles in their quick stocks in India, or for their dead stock in Leaden-hall-street. But leaving this enquiry for the present, I attach myself now to one item only, to which I have repeatedly endeavoured to draw the attention of parliament without success. It comes before us again in a more questionable shape, but with some explanations which we never had before: I mean the sum of 4,018,000l. for which this account takes credit, for stores and supplies to his Majesty's troops. In the last year this demand on govt. stood at 3,573,339l. One million was paid on account, by authority of parliament, very improperly obtained, as I conceive, and 501,666l. more for interest, without any authority at all; and all this upon a mere claim stated, subject to adjustment. You would naturally expect to find the claim diminished by 1,500,000l. On the contrary, it stands now at 4,018,000l. and we are informed by a memorandum, "that the Company's claims on govt. for the expences of the army sent from India to Egypt will probably amount to 2,000,000l. more. This debt is certainly a thriving plant, the more you prune it the faster it grows. Now look at the particulars. Does the public know, has parliament to this hour ever heard, that government owes the Company 3,130,591l. for the capture and possession of Ceylon; 1,023,995l. for the capture and possession of French and Dutch settlements on the peninsula; 563,068l. for intended expeditions to Mauritius and Manilla; and that, on the capital of this unadjusted claim, the public is paying interest at 4 per cent. as if the debt had been finally liquidated and funded. Of the Company's right to the amount of their demand, I say nothing: it may, for aught I know, be perfectly well founded; but I think it cannot be disputed that it should not have been kept out of sight for so many years. The directors themselves should have brought it before parliament. The whole has accrued since the act of 1793. On this point however I think I have gained some ground since last year. The noble lord has come round to my opinion. He thinks that the claim ought to be examined, and finally adjusted; and he informs us that commissioners on both sides have been appointed for that purpose. In the first place, I never heard till now of the existence of such a commission; and then I assert that a demand of such importance as 5,500,000l. ought to have been submitted to parliament in the first instance, and investigated by a committee of this house, or at least by commissioners acting under parliamentary authority. The noble lord, I presume, has examined the report made by these commissioners, for he says that it appears that 900,000l. is certainly due to the Company. If that be all, their stock account takes credit for 3,100,000l. more than they are worth. But suppose this had been the state of the case last year, when the chancellor of the exchequer moved and carried a resolution to pay them one million on account without enquiry here, or any evidence whatever produced to the house. It is plain that he would have paid them 100,000l. too much. On the whole of these transactions I shall content myself with saying, that a very different prospect was held out to the public when it was proposed to renew the Company's charter. The act of 1793 was an act of ostentation, and nothing else. Almost all the great objects, which it professed to provide for, have failed. Some of the principal calculations, for which unbounded personal credit was taken, have not merely failed, but are reversed. The law is now in effect little more than a dead letter. It promised to secure 500,000l. a year to the public:—one year only has been paid. It promised to reduce the Indian debt from 7 to 2 millions, sterling.—On the 30th of April, 1803, this debt was 20,000,000l.

It promised to reduce the bond debt in Great Britain to 1,500,000l.—The capital of their debt at home, including 700,000l. borrowed of the Bank, amounted to 2,544,567l. on the 1st of March, 1804. It promised to exhibit a surplus "to be reserved and retained by the Company for their own use, and applied in augmentation of the dividends on their capital stock;" and finally it promised to provide a fund of 12,000,000l. sterling, to be vested in the stocks, "as a guarantee fund for the better securing to the India Company their capital stock, or the value thereof;" after which the supposed surplus, of which that fund was to be formed, was to become the property of the public in full right. I need not tell you, that not one shilling has ever been produced to make good any portion of these three last provisions. Have I not then a right to conclude that, as far as relates to the Company's finances, the whole measure is a nullity, if not a deception, under the imposing name and authority of an act of parliament. The noble lord's predecessor, who brought in that bill, did not confine his hopes within the limits even of that flattering prospect. In his letter to the directors, dated the 30th of June, 1801, he states an opinion in which he says there would be much sound policy, viz. "that it would be wise, after the example of other Indian powers, to have always a depôt of treasure, in your coffers in India, to the amount of three or four millions, sterling, to meet any sudden emergency, and to save you the necessity of having immediate recourse to large loan!" On the wisdom of such a measure we may debate hereafter; that is, if any of us live to see the day, when the supposed deposit of treasure shall exist any where but in the noble lord's imagination. There is not a glimpse or a shadow of it within our present Indian horizon. Sir; I do not mean to oppose the passing of these resolutions: on the contrary, I wish to see them recorded on the Journals, in order that the substance of them, with the whole state of our Indian acquisitions, and of the Company's affairs, may be open to a fair and full investigation; not in a little, annual, wrangling committee, of fifteen or twenty members, but upon a scale of enquiry commensurate to the object, the magnitude of the dominion, the Company's safety, and the important national interests connected with that territory and that trade. I know I am unequal to the task; but if it be not undertaken by others, my intention is to attempt it myself, and as early as possible in the next session. I shall propose it to the house to enquire, through the medium of special committees, into the principal transactions which have happened in India since the year 1782, and into the changes produced by those events in the general state of the company's affairs. On that review of the whole subject, I shall call on parliament to determine and pronounce, either that they adhere to the fundamental principles of policy, justice, and honour, laid down by their own solemn resolutions at that time, and soon after adopted by the legislature; or that the force of events compels them to abandon that system, and to set up a new principle for the future govt. of India. It is not prudent, it is not honourable, it is not safe, that, in the management of that great dominion, all your principles, all your laws, and all your institutions should appear on one side, and all your practice on the other.

said, that he had no objection to examine the affairs of the East India company however minutely, provided that such an examination should be fair and impartial, and unmarked by any party spirit. It was a national misfortune, he admitted, that the affairs of India were so little known and so little attended to. In the affair of the company's claim on government, for the actual balance of which they took credit in the present computation of their stock, viz. 4,018,000l. he thought they had been very ill used. They had borrowed in India the money, with which they had supplied the services of govt. at a very high interest several years ago; and it was only in the last year, that a small part of their just demand had been allowed. He wondered to hear a gent. (Mr. Francis,) for whose abilities and knowledge he had long entertained the highest respect, complain of the export of bullion to India, as if the company or the nation were losers, or at all affected by such export. Bullion was an article of merchandize as much as any other; and, as to profit or loss, it made no sort of difference, whether you bought bullion by the sale of broad cloth in Europe, or whether you sent the broad cloth to India, to purchase bullion which you wanted there. As to the company's omission of their capital on the debit side of their stock laid before the house, it was done by a positive order of the house of commons, which left them no choice. They could have no view or interest to serve by this omission. No concealment could be intended, nor would it be practicable. He thought his hon. friend had not done justice to the accuracy of the accounts annually submitted to parliament by the court of directors; the communication contained in those papers, of the state of the company's affairs, was full and unreserved, as far as the materials in their possession would permit. Nothing, he was confident, was intentionally withheld. Undoubtedly all estimates of services so extensive, so remote, and so complicated, were liable to fall in some particulars; but such failures were always fairly accounted for. In the annual account laid before the court of proprietors, which made it as public as possible, the amount of the capital invariably appeared as a debt against the company, exactly on the principle maintained by the hon. gent. (Mr. Francis). But in effect, it made no difference in the company's situation, whether their capital was stated so, or not; because, after all, the debt was only due from the company to itself, and never could be demanded, unless the corporation were to be dissolved; and even then, it would come last in order of payment, when all other debts were satisfied. The hon. gent. concluded with asserting, from his own knowledge, that the company's affairs, were, on the whole, much better now, than in 1793; and that, by the help of a sinking fund which had been wisely established abroad, he hoped to see them ere long relieved from all their incumbrances.

.—Sir; I beg leave to assure the hon. director, with the deepest sense and the sincerest acknowledgment of his personal merit and uncommon qualifications for his office, that I revert with pleasure to former times, when I had the happiness of possessing his friendship, and that having, as I trust, recovered it now, I shall never relinquish my claim to it. In reply to some of my hon. friend's observations, I shall say but a few words. In the first place, I utterly disclaim the idea of hostility to the India company. To the best of my judgment, I am their true friend and disinterested advocate; but not by encouraging or submitting to delusions, which, sooner or later, I believe must be their ruin. In all the transactions of India, I well know that the company are purely passive. They have no power over their own affairs, because they have no command over those, who are nominally their servants. Between the governors abroad, and the board of control at home, I wish to hear what real, effective authority is left with the court of directors. With regard to the export of bullion, my hon. friend asserts, that it is just the same thing, whether you send out so much silver or an equal value in British manufactures; or, in other words, whether you buy the silver, with your broad cloth, in Europe or in India. I state his proposition as I understood him, and there I leave it for the present, observing only, that far other promises of new markets were held out at the renewal of the charter. As to the company's unadjusted claim on government, I never said that it was ill-founded; for, in fact, I did not know, till very lately, how it arose, or what it consisted of. But I did and do assert, that it ought to have been examined and liquidated, and the balance paid or acknowledged long ago. Is it a thing to be defended or endured, that a silent debt should have been suffered to grow and accumulate against the public since the year 1794, to the enormous amount of five millions and a half, besides an outstanding demand of two millions more for the expedition to Egypt, and that the subject should never have been regularly brought before parliament? The censure follows the fact, but it does not fall on the India company. My hon. friend says, that the court of directors are precluded by a positive order of the house of commons, given in 1794, from inserting the amount of their capital on the debit side of their stock account. I know it. The directors have a right to plead the order. But how is it possible to justify the order itself? My hon. friend informs the house that, although the capital be omitted in the account laid before parliament, it is invariably inserted in the public account laid before the court of proprietors. If so, the two accounts of the same property must exhibit a different balance; and all that I have contended for so long, on this point, is admitted. But my hon. friend has delivered it as his opinion to parliament, that it made no real difference whether the capital was stated or omitted, because the debt was only due from the company to itself; which, in my mind, is very like saying that it is no debt at all. Here, I own, I differ from my hon. friend, though with great distrust of myself, and with unaffected deference to his superior knowledge; and first I ask him whether it would be right and regular in a merchant, computing only for himself, to credit the account of his commercial property with the produce of his capital laid out in ships or merchandize, and not to debit the same account with the capital so laid out. I believe it is even usual to charge interest on the capital, in order to shew the final profit or loss accruing from the use of it. On this question, I appeal and submit to the judgment of the merchants of England, who certainly know better than I do, how such accounts ought to be kept. As to the proposition now stated, that the debt is only due by the company to itself, as if the company were an individual person, I cannot accede to it. The corporation, and the subscribers or proprietors are different persons. One of them borrows; the other lends. In all cases the debt should appear and be acknowledged. I believe the worthy directors would be very tender of telling the proprietors, the widow, and the orphan, whose fortunes are invested, in the stock, that the corporate body owed them nothing. Undoubtedly they are different parties, and accordingly the legislature has repeatedly interposed in the management of their domestic affairs for the necessary purpose of protecting one of them against the other.

threw out an idea that the accounts might be made up in India to the 31st of Oct. in place of the 30th of April, whereby the affairs of India might be brought under the consideration of parliament at an earlier period.

agreed that it would be desirable, but stated an insuperable objection, as the revenue year in India terminated on the 30th of April.

said, this was not the case in all the settlements, though it was in Bengal.—The resolutions were then agreed to, and the house having resumed, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.—Adj.