moved, that the amendments made by the lords, in the Corn Trade bill, be now taken into consideration. The amendments were accordingly read.

said, that on the first reading of these amendments, he felt it his duty to call the attention of the house to them. Several of them were such as to make it doubtful, whether the house ought to agree to them; but the last was such as he could not by any means pass over. It was in schedule D, relative to the regulation of the export and import of corn, and the duties to be paid thereon. The bill as sent from that house, had fixed that the price should be regulated by the joint prices of England and Ireland. The lords had struck out of the bill the Irish price, and made it to be regulated by the price of England alone, which was an amendment which that house could not, consistently with its privileges, agree to. It would therefore be necessary, that some member should move, that the consideration of the lords amendments should be adjourned to some future day.

moved, that the consideration of the lords' amendments be adjourned to that day 3 months,—Ordered; by which the bill is of course lost.—The same hon. gent. then moved, that the several reports of the committees respecting the Corn Trade, be referred to a committee of the whole house. The Speaker asked the hon. gent. for what purpose?

said, it was his intention to bring forward another bill on the same subject. He then moved "that the house do to-morrow resolve itself into the said committee." Ordered.

reminded the hon. gent. of the lateness of the session, observing that it would most probably be closed early in next week. He could not see any possibility of such business as the hon. gent. alluded to, being gone through in so short a space of time.—The question was then put and carried.

said, that having looked over the resolutions of the hon. gent. opposite to him (Mr. Johnstone) relative to the public finances (See p. 1038,) there were some particular statements of his own which he wished to have printed, so that they might come into the hon. gent's hands, and into those of the house, in the same shape as his own. He proposed, therefore, that the matter should stand over to Saturday, by which day they would be printed; and, that the house might have time to consider them, they might go into consideration on Monday.—Mr. Johnstone bowed his assent, and the business was postponed to Saturday.

said, that before he moved for the papers, he was desirous to have laid before the house, he wished shortly to state the motives which had induced him to bring forward the measure he intended to submit to their consideration. He believed there was in fact very little difference of opinion between the gent. on the opposite side, and those who brought forward the India Budget. Only the gent. opposite had always taken occasion to travel into other years of accounts, than those which were immediately before them, by which means they were enabled to make particular statements, and to seize on some particular items, which seemed to militate against the statements brought forward in the Budget of the present year. His object was to bring into one account all the accounts which had been made out since the renewal of the charter, or for the last ten years; by which means it would be easy, at one view, to see the whole of the statements, and to check such errors as they might at any time attribute to him. The gent. on the other side the house had given him an additional desire to have this account, from their having broadly insinuated, that he and his predecessors had stated matters in some instances more favourably than they really were, and in other instances had formed predictions, and given pledges of the flourishing state of the company's affairs which had never been realised. He was, therefore, desirous to put into one clear concise account, the estimates and results of the last ten years. The accusation they had held out was, that both he and the noble lord who preceded him, had held out great promises as to the revenues of the company, and had formed and raised in the minds of others, the most flourishing state of the company's affairs; and had given repeated pledges that the revenues of India would sooner meet the public expenditure of the country, than this country would be called on to pay any part of the expences of India. This, he contended, had been already verified. As to the assertion made by his noble predecessor (Lord Melville); it was true the gent. opposite had always pertinaciously said that his predecessor had given a pledge, it would be so, in case of either war or peace; but the contrary was the fact. His noble predecessor had expressly made the assertion, on the supposition of the continuance of peace; and had said, that in case of a war intervening, it might cause a considerable alteration in the finances of the company. To the war, therefore, it was fairly to be attributed, that this prediction of his noble predecessor had not been fulfilled. Not only the European war must necessarily have had considerable effect on the company's finances, but the Mysore war was attended with such considerable expense, and with such difficulties as could not fail to impede and interrupt events and occurrences of the highest importance, which might otherwise have been expected. To this cause it was owing that the participation did not take place, and surely nothing could constitute a more ample excuse, than a war of so much magnitude and importance, unexpectedly arising at the very time, when the affairs of the company wore so pleasing and promising an aspect, as to draw from his noble predecessor, a prediction founded on the fairest and most promising prospects.—His lordship then adverted to the charge, that the estimates and revenues were by no means commensurate. In this be appealed to the candour of the house. The estimated revenue was upwards of 91 millions, and the actual produce was 94 millions. The estimated expense had been about 74 millions, and the actual expellee, owing to unforeseen accidents, had been about 83 millions. Taking then the statements that had been made, the only difference that would be found between these and the actual produce during an average of 10 years, would be found only to be a small error of 3 millions, which was truly surprising considering the wars that had taken place in India, upon the expense of which no clear calculation could have been made before they happened, and also, considering that India had not the advantage of the peace in Europe for above 3 months. There was, however, a net surplus of 2 millions, even during this continued period of war. But then a debt of 11 millions had arisen, which was to be accounted for. The expences of St. Helena, and other settlements, the interest of 5 millions of debt, and a million of money that had been paid to this country; swallowed up 4 millions, which accounted for the expenditure of the surplus, and two millions more.—But, 9 millions still remained, and what was become of this sum? Part had gone to defray an old charge in the Caustic; part had been paid in participations to this country, and part were retained as a balance in the Indian Treasury, a practice that was always found convenient. Still, however, there was a debt of 11 millions at this moment existing. But the interests of the company were not particularly injured by this, as the debt at home had diminished 3 millions, which reduced the whole debt to 9 millions. The company had goods and assets in their commerce to the amount of 21 millions, so that they were in fact in possession of a surplus of 3 millions. He did not wish, he confessed, to see the debt abroad accumulating, as it appeared on the accounts, but peculiar circumstances had rendered this unavoidable. His lordship concluded by declaring his hopes that the house would be of opinion that no imputations of having deceived the house could attach to him or his predecessor. He then moved "That the proper Officer should be directed to lay before the house an account of the revenue and charges of India for the last 10 years, distinguishing each year."

said that notwithstanding all the statements made by the noble lord, he could not but contend, that the whole sheaved that every thing he had advanced on the subject was strictly true. After the noble lord, had made his annual statement in the form of an Indian budget, he now came forward with a new set of accounts unknown to any one but himself, with which he most ingeniously pretended to combat arguments urged against the old ones. He thought such a mode of proceeding was unparliamentarily and unhanded. It was also unprecedented, except in one instance, and that was of his predecessor, who came to the house and argued strenuously from a letter of the Duke of York, which he had in his pocket, and which nobody had seen but himself. He maintained, that the florid pictures of the state of the company's affairs which had been drawn formerly by the predecessor of the noble lord, and were now presented to the house by the noble lord himself, were fallacious, and consequently delusive to that house, and to the public. When these statements were annually given into parliament, the same promises of reduction of debt, and increase of revenue above the expenditure, were uniformly made by the person, whoever he was, whose duty it was to open the India budget to the house. The noble lord had evidently changed his ground, by bringing forward new statements for ten years after he had given in the usual annual accounts. He thought therefore, that the noble lord should perform the promises which he had already made, and make good his former estimates, before he laid any new accounts before parliament.

denied that in what he had said he was either unparliamentary or unhanded. He would have thought he was unhanded, if he had moved for the accounts without explaining why he had done so. The gent. opposite had all along complained of the inaccuracy of the accounts, and he wished to have one where the whole might be seen together, and errors, if any there be, more easily detected. His lordship, in explanation, then recapitulated several of his former statements.

begged leave to say a very few words, relative to one assertion which had been made of the noble lord's predecessor having said, that at a particular time the public had a right to a participation of the Company's revenues, under all circumstances, whether there was war, or whether there was peace. He had taken the trouble to investigate this point, and he found, on referring to a speech of the noble lord's predecessor, which he delivered in 1796, in which he then referred to another speech made by him in 1794, these words, "it may be asked, if there be such improvement in the Company's revenues, why does not the public participate?" He answered, because no such promise was made but under certain conditions; and in his speech of 1794, he had expressly excepted the interference of war. He had, in short, uniformly contended, that the participation in a considerable degree depended on the continuance of peace. He was surprised, he said, the hon. gent. should maintain the contrary; it was impossible the noble lord should have used such an argument as, that war or peace would make no difference in the affairs of the Company, He was a man of too much good sense to entertain such an idea for a moment, and he hoped that assertion respecting him would no more be resorted to.

said, he should only trouble the house with a very few words. His noble friend (Lord Melville) had stated, that his expectations respecting the participation were not likely to be disappointed, unless there should be a war on the Continent; but he had said, at the same time, that to a certain extent they would. It was for the house, therefore, to consider how far circumstances had happened, which had a tendency to affect materially the Company's revenues. All the declarations and promises of Lord Melville were made expressly exclusive of a war in India. It was now 10 years since they were made, and there had been a rebellion fully as expensive as a war; besides the different expeditions fitted out by the Company in aid of the public service, there were the expedition to Manilla, and the expedition to Egypt, the last of which cost upwards of two millions, and for both of which the Company have an unsettled account, and claim against time public. The present object of his noble friend was not to bring forward new accounts. It arose from the gent. opposite having taken occasion to compare the different accounts of 10 years, and to urge them in argument, as best suited their purpose. His noble friend wished for such an account as would give a recapitulation, in a clear point of view, of the different accounts it referred to.

then rose and entered into a long detail on the state of India affairs for several years past. His remarks were directed not only to the policy, but the commerce of the Company in its different relations. They were so minute and circumstantial, however, and so closely connected with the history of the Company, that we cannot pretend to enter into them at any length. He particularly stated, that the sanguine hopes held out to parliament and to the country, of the Company's being not only able in time to defray their territorial expences, but to contribute also to the strength and resources of this country, had been hitherto illusory. The language used by the noble lord's predecessor had been as flattering as that of the noble lord possibly could be. When that noble lord presided at the head of India affairs, he had made a supposition that even with 15 millions of debt, the affairs of the Company might be conducted with advantage. This the hon. gent. said, had merely been stated as a supposition, and of what might be done in case of the worst, but not with any idea that the debt would ever amount so high. What conclusion, then, he asked, must we form now, that the debt is accumulated to a much greater sum, and is so far beyond an amount which that noble lord had calculated on as the highest possible? If in the course of 10 years we had increased the debt from 7 to 21 millions, what expectation could we form of diminution in future? The noble lord's predecessor had looked forward to a period of 10 years, and had given a statement of what he thought would then be the case; but if they might judge from facts, he had been very much mistaken indeed. The noble lord now at the head of India affairs, the hon. member thought, was proceeding in nearly a similar manner; he was holding up hopes to the house which, if any judgment might be formed from the past, would never be realized. It was not his design, however, to attach any particular blame to the measure now proposed by the motion before the house. The debt of the govt. formed a part of the assets, but he would have had those, he contended, independently of that debt. It was not his design to move for any committee of inquiry; he wished only for farther explanation, which was certainly not by any means unparliamentary. He did not wish either that it should be understood as his opinion, that the validity of the Company's credit was not good. On the contrary, he looked forward to years of prosperity. If properly conducted, he thought India presented a glorious prospect. It was able, as the noble lord had truly said, to support its own wars; and though it created a million of debt annually, it was still productive of very great advantages. The commercial returns, however, to this country he thought were considered as an object of too great importance. There was no policy, he insisted, in increasing those returns, in many instances, to a useless degree, by the system of borrowing in India. To proportion the commerce to the actual capital, would be every way more advantageous, as by this means also more attention could be paid to the carrying trade, which he thought the most profitable. Instead of this, however, the carrying trade was discouraged, or at least was permitted to go into the hands of foreigners, as the Americans had chiefly now engrossed it, and by this means a portion of British capital that might be very usefully employed, was lost to the country.

began by observing, that the topics which the hon. gent. (Mr. Princep) had been pleased to bring before the house, (relating chiefly to the sources and effects of the company's commerce,) were certainly of great importance and difficulty; he was unwilling at so late an hour, and with so thin at attendance, to go at large into the various points which the hon. gent. had touched upon, but something might naturally be expected from him in reply to the extraordinary assertions advanced by that hon. gent. assertions with which he totally disagreed; and which he hoped to shew were totally unfounded. In the complex system of the company, comprehending both large revenues and extended commerce, it was indeed hardly possible always to disorientate accurately in their Indian accounts, what exclusively belonged to the one, and what to the other. Both revenue and commerce having been considered in India, as the united concern of one and the same body, the receipts for each went into the same fund; the issues for each out of the same fund, without distinguishing exactly how the accounts stood between the two branches. And without knowing this, how could it be known what part of the loan of any year should be charged to commerce, what to general purposes? It was, however, very practicable to bring into one view what had been for a course of years the receipts and the issues on account of commerce, and thereby to determine what assistance it had on the whole received during that period from the revenue. Such an account he had made it his business to form; and he hoped it would, with other documents, also prepared by him, and of the accuracy of which he was well persuaded, serve to confute the positions advanced by the hon. gent. the hon. gent. had maintained, that the revenue of the company had been applied to their commerce, that the commerce had in the last ten years, ending with 1803, occasioned loans in India to the amount of 16 millions sterling—that unless the commerce had taken this money, it need not have been borrowed; that the interest of the Indian debt is therefore chargeable to the commerce; that moreover, the commerce of its accounts were stated in a mercantile way, would be found to have been a losing one, so that instead of a profit of 7 millions in six years, as the directors state, if interest, charges of merchandize, and insurance be deducted, there will be in those six years a loss of 2 millions and a half, whilst by reason of this preposterous mode of carrying on trade by Indian loans, the debt has in ten years increased from 7 millions to 21 millions. Sir, (continued Mr. Grant,) I have now in my hand an account stated between England and India, (so far as relates to the company's concerns,) for 15 years, from 1788–9 to 1802–3, wherein on the one side, India is credited with all the investments sent within that period from thence, and from China to England, (including the cargoes which may have been lost on the way home,) and with the Indian charges, merchandize, not inserted in the invoices, which the hon. gent. Supposes to be left out of view; and on the other side, India is debited for the proceeds of all the exports, stores, and bullion received in India and China, (not for any that may have been lost on the way out,) and for the amount of bills drawn from both countries on England, within the same period, the result of which accounts is this:

I have another account, Sir, stated exactly in the manner of the former, for ten years from 1793, the same period the hon. gent. has chosen, the result is not quite so favorable for the commerce; (which in the five years preceding 1793, paid to India and China more than it received,) but the balance against it in these ten years, after all the items on both sides are fairly stated, is

These statements, Sir, entirely overturn the assertions of the hon. gent. that the commerce has been carried on by a revenue capital, that it has occasioned loans to the extent of 16 millions, and is therefore chargeable with the interest of those loans. But it may be said, that as the revenue accounts laid from time to time before parliament, shew on the whole a surplus in the last ten years, after defraying civil and military charges and interest, where then could be the occasion for borrowing, unless to carry on the commerce? In answer to this, it is to be observed, that there are a variety of disbursements not included under the head of charges on the revenues. To enumerate all these exactly, would require an analysis of all the payments made in India for the period mentioned, which would be a work of labor and research, but from an account recently made up with care, though for want of time not carried into every minute particular, we are able to account within 2 millions and a half, for all the receipts on whatever account in India, for the last ten years.

which may be made up from such heads as the following; losses by captors of ships in India, losses by accidents in the commercial and other departments, supplies to Prince of Wales's island, and the Andamans, &c. whereof the particulars have not for want of time yet been collected. And in this way, the whole encrease of the debt since 1793, (11,500,000l. not 14 millions as the hon. gent. states,) is to be accounted for, without charging it to the commerce, which at the most can only be accountable in the last ten years, to the joint heads of surplus of revenue, and other receipts from loans, &c. in the sum above stated of 2 millions and a half, but that also had been laid in by the balance in favor of commerce in the 5 years preceding 1793, and was further, more than equalized by the exports from England in 1803–4. The hon. gent. has stated the company's commerce to be a losing one. He has supposed the accumulated expences of Indian interest, charges, merchandize, and insurance to attach upon it, over and above the charges exhibited in the profit and loss of account. From what has been already said, it is plain the capital of the commerce is not borrowed in India, therefore Indian interest cannot attach upon it, and the interest paid in England is charged in the home accounts. The charges, merchandize of the factories and establishments in India, (not included in the invoices), are also brought to account; and as to insurance, if it is to be charged on the goods, the company, who are their own underwriters, must have credit for the amount of premiums, which will come to the same thing, as if the insurance were not charged at all. Upon these fair data, the company's commerce will be found to be a gaining one; not the China commerce only, but the Indian. By an account made up for the last 15 years,

And a similar account made up for the last 10 years from 1793, shews the total profits

With regard to the account of Stock by Computation, it does contain the result of the general receipts and issues of the company's affairs, and comprehends all their receipts from loans and profits, though they are not, and cannot be exhibited in detail, (it will be found agreeably to what has been above stated,) as the hon. gent. requires, from the nature of that account, which is an abstract account. Passing over other things mentioned by the hon. gent. I shall only say a few words on what he has advanced respecting the carrying trade of India. He complains, that the Parsees, Arabs, and Americans, are engrossing that trade. Should we, Sir, desire to exclude the Parsers and Arabs from the trade of their own shores? They possessed that trade for centuries before us: and now they prosecute it to the benefit of our settlements, where only they can find protection, and where they and their riches must at length settle. With respect to the Americans, certainly the manner in which they conduct their Indian trade, deserves at a proper time serious consideration. The commercial treaty with them, gave them the privilege of a direct trade between America and our Indian possessions; not contented with that, they carrry on a circuitous trade between India and Europe; this is an abuse which ought to be corrected.

felt it his duty to approve of every attempt to investigate the affairs of that country, as there must, sooner or later, be a period when those affairs would press themselves on the house in a manner that could not be resisted, He thought it ominous, however, that no two persons in the house could be found to agree in their calculations on the estimates laid before the house, or even in the figures that were submitted to them. The revenue and commerce, he thought, were so nearly connected, that no inferences could be drawn from them separately. One point in particular he thought pressed strongly on the house, and that was, whether they should rather leave the trade to others, than borrow to support it. A noble lord had mentioned 14 millions of debt as a very high sum, but even that they might be able to support, provided they had any security that it should not be much more. It was rather extraordinary; the learned member thought that every thing should be represented in a very flourishing state, and yet that the debt at the same time should be so rapidly accumulating. He regretted the impossibility of moving for accounts to be made out in a certain way, which might render them more precise and intelligible.

supported the statement, and could have wished that the hon. gent. who undertook to arraign it, had paid a little more deference to candour and to accuracy.

stated, that the commerce of India had sustained itself without any aid from the revenue, and that the commerce had derived no advantage from the wars in that country.—The question was then carried, with an amendment by Sir W. Pulteney, that the accounts relating to China should be also distinguished from those of India.

also moved, "that there be laid before the house an account of the whole amount of the Company's debts and assets at home and abroad, including China, for the last 10 years, from April 1793, to 1803 and 1804, distinguishing such as have been from 1803 to 1804." After several observations from members who had engaged in the previous part of the debate, the motion for the production of all the papers which the noble lord who opened the business had explained, was carried without a division.—Adjourned.