moved the order of the day for the 2d reading of this bill. He thought it right to take this opportunity of giving notice that it was proposed to fill up the blank for the commencement of the operation of the act, in the committee, with the 15th of Nov. being the next following quarter-day, instead of the 15th Aug. which was the day proposed for the commencement in the former bill. The reason for making this alteration was, that accounts had been received from various parts of the country, that the appearances of the ensuing harvest were not so favourable as there had been at first reason to expect. On this ground it was thought right to retard the operation of the present measure to a period at which the produce of the ensuing harvest would be ascertained and collected, so that no premature exportation could take place, to expose the country to want. By this alteration there would also be this advantage, that parliament would in all probability be sitting at the time; which would be a complete security for the repeal of the measure, if the country should be then in a situation to dread any mischief from its operation. He hoped these considerations would remove the apprehensions which some persons entertained from the bill, and that they would induce the gentlemen who had already manifested some opposition to it, not to impede its progress.

rose to oppose it. He said, he had hoped the hon. gent. would not have persisted in pushing forward this bill at so late a period of the session. For his own part, he could not but consider the bill as tending, and calculated to perpetuate the price of corn, so that it should never fall below a certain sum per quarter, or bushel. It had already been productive of very serious effects to the public, and particularly to the lower classes of the people, by raising the price of corn 10s. a bushel, during the progress of the last bill through the two houses; and it would, in all likelihood, have a still further tendency, if the present bill was persisted in. The present alteration, no doubt, made the bill less extendable than the former one; but still he disliked the measure altogether; and, as such, he could wish the house to forego it till the next session of parliament, when the bill would have the advantage of receiving a more general and ample discussion. He therefore moved, that instead of the word "now," the words "this day 6 months" be added.

rose, he said, to second the motion of his hon. friend. He had a very great objection to the bill, as he was sensible it had already been the cause of raising considerably the price of corn. It had also increased the price of flour; and there had been a rise in the assize of bread, for two weeks past. He thought the amendments would certainly make the bill less exceptionable; but, as the operation of it was not to take place with respect to exportation, before the 15th of Nov. he thought that, as parliament might, in all likelihood, meet before that time, it would be better the whole should be postponed to the next session, when it would have the fullest investigation and discussion.

expressed himself of the same opinion. He thought the bill was of great magnitude and importance, and, as such, that it ought not to pass in so very late a period of the session. In consequence of what had already been done upon the subject, the assize of bread had been again, for the third time, raised yesterday.

allowed that the period of the session was late, and the attendance of members of course thin; but if the bill which was now before the house did not differ from one to which the house, in a very full attendance, had given its approbation, and which would have passed into a law, he did not see the objection of its being now brought forward at a late period of the session, or in a thin attendance, could with propriety be urged. The measure was not a new one; it was one of which the house had been long in possession, grounded on the reports of highly respectable committees, and amply discussed in its progress through the house. The measure had, after all this consideration and inquiry, passed that house with full approbation, and had been sent back only in consequence of a trifling alteration, not of any moment in the operation of the bill, which, however, from the forms of that house, rendered it necessary either to relinquish the measure altogether for the present session, or to bring it for ward in its present shape. He trusted, therefore, the house would see it in quite a different light from an entire new measure brought forward for the first time, which he agreed would be highly improper at this late period, in a thing of such magnitude. To lay aside the measure entirely, would be to defeat the intention which the house had declared early and in a full attendance. It was therefore desirable that the measure should take effect, unless any thing had interfered to render it proper to reconsider it. Nothing of this nature had occurred; for though it had been stated that the price of grain and flour had risen, and that the rise was to be imputed to this measure, he believed the fact did not go to that extent; any rise that had taken place was to be imputed to other causes than this measure. Such rise as had taken place might very naturally be the result of the prospect of a diminished harvest in the next year, and it was yet far below the price which was universally allowed to be necessary for the due encouragement of agriculture. The increase of the price that had taken place was neither regular nor constant. In the present week the price had fallen, for though the assize of bread had been increased, that was regulated not by the price of the current, but of the last week. The present price was far from being so high as that, which all agreed was a sufficient price. There was, besides, an additional inducement to pass the bill in the delay of the commencement of the new export price till 15th Nov. The country would be secure of its own harvest, and the usual facilities of supply from America and the Baltic would still be open. It would also be easy at that time to adopt in a full parliament any alteration, if circumstances should be such as to render any necessary. This course was far better than that parliament should, by rejecting the present bill, run counter to its own sense, so fully and decidedly pronounced.

said, that the amendment proposed by the worthy alderman removed much of the objections which he had to the bill. He still, however, thought that the consideration of the measure might, without any danger, be deferred till next session; for to him it did not appear that any such necessity now existed as to call for and justify such urgency. — After a few words in explanation from the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. Western, the house divided on the amendment, when the numbers were, for it 11. Against it 56. Majority for the bill 45; which was accordingly read a 2d time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.

rose, and moved his first resolution, which was read by the Speaker as follows: "That the total amount of the public funded debt of G. Britain, was, on the 1st of Feb. 1803, 567,008,978l. of which 67,255,915l. had been purchased by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt; and. 19,180,587l. had been transferred to them on account of the land tax redeemed, leaving a funded debt unredeemed, of 483,572,476l.; and that the amount of annuities charged on G. Britain, (after deducting what have fallen in) was on the 1st of Feb. in short annuities, and for lives, 539,979.; and in long annuities, 1,015,410l."

said, there was a difference in his statement from that which had formerly been proposed by a right hon. friend of his (Mr. Tierney); that right hon. gent. usually took his statement from the year 1793, the last year of the peace; he took his from 1802, the breaking out of the new war. His right hon. friend was also in the habit of taking a survey of what might be the probable situation of our finances in time of peace. This statement was productive of much discussion and great variety of opinion, and he therefore purposely abstained from it; the more so; as it was next to impossible to hit upon any thing like an accurate estimate of what might be our peace establishment. We should be always able to meet it, for the means and resources of the country were evidently such as abundantly to supply whatever the exigencies of the country might be in time of peace. Within the last year he thought there was an increase of debt of about 40 millions. But that indeed included loans of two years. What might be taken from that by the progress of the sinking fund could not easily be ascertained, as the amount of the diminution would depend upon the price of stock at the time. There should also be included the loan for Ireland, and the expenses the exchequer bills, though even this would create no very material difference between his statement and that of the right hon. gent. It was important, in his mind, that such a view of our financial situation, should be continually kept before the eyes of that house and of the public; and as far as it lay in the power of his humble abilities, it was a task and a duty which he should endeavour to perform.

expressed his satisfaction at finding the two statements so nearly coincide with one another. The points wherein they differed were besides very inconsiderable. He perfectly agreed with the hon. gent. respecting the means and ability of the country to meet whatever might be necessary at the conclusion of a peace. Indeed, the statement he had made, exhibited resources an extent, which could find no parallel in the history of the world; and that too, after a period of ten years' war, the most dangerous and expensive in which the country had ever been engaged. For so far from our means being decreased, our wealth was rapidly progressive. There were, however, some omissions in the statement of the hon. gent to which he must beg leave briefly to advert: they principally arose from not attending to the improvement of our navigation, and to the proportion which the progress of the sinking fund should be observed to bear to the amount of the national debt. From that, consideration chiefly arose that stability on which our credit rested. That proportion last year was as 77 to 1; this year it was much more favorable; for it appeared to be in the proportion of 73 to 1; and that even at the beginning of a new war. As to the loan for Ireland, it should not be included here. This country was not chargeable with it, as long as the funds in Ireland were not available, and there was no room to apprehend the reverse. As to the interest of the exchequer bills, it was not usual to provide for it in the year in which they were issued. But the interest for those issued, for example, in 1804, would be found in the budget for 1805. As to the poor rates, he was ready to agree that they were very burdensome, and that something should be devised to alleviate the burden. But they should not be included in these statements; for govt. had no control whatever over them for any political purpose. As well might be included in them the county rates, what was charged at turnpikes and canals, and even tythes, and many other charges, which had no connection with the nature of the charges enumerated in these financial statements. He was glad, however, that the difference between him and the hon. gent. on main points, was by no means of a material nature.

said, that the public creditor would look to this country for the discharge of the debt in Ireland; he, therefore, thought it fair to include it.

did not see the propriety, as an hon. member had suggested, of including the sum to be raised for Ireland in the statement before the house. The state of the Irish exchequer was such he assured the house as would enable Ireland to pay what might be necessary.

wished to know if any security had been received for the loan made to the Emperor of Germany, or if that debt was considered as imposed on G. Britain. He hoped the house would not be too lavish in voting away money, and, that such occurrences as this would operate as a useful check on their liberality, and caution them from proceeding on the principle that there would be an increase of means in proportion to their demands. The experience we had had of our increasing means, ought not to make us forget the propriety and necessity of economy. The favourable proportion which the sinking fund bore to the amount of the debt, might be owing, he contended, to the war, which was at the same time the cause of our expense, This apparent advantage was owing to the falling of the funds, and thus, he said, we derived consolation from adversity. In regard to the poor rates, he argued also for the propriety of including them in the statement of the monies to be raised, because being upwards of 5 millions a year, they ought to be always kept in view by the house, because just so much less would the country be able to bear as was raised in this way.

said, that application had been made to the Austrian govt. for the repayment of the advances made by this country; but that they were ineffectual. The claim, however, was acknowledged to be just; but the distressed and exhausted state of the Austrian finances were pleaded, as an excuse for delaying the discharge of the debt. As to the observation of the hon. gent. that the favourable proportion of the sinking fund to the national debt would, arise from the depression of the funds by the war, he could not think it well founded; for if it affected it at all, it was in so slight a manner as scarcely to deserve to be taken into account.

said, he rose to confirm what had just been said by the right hon. gent. who spoke last, that the claim had been repeatedly made and acknowledged by the Emperor's ministers, as one which they were bound in honour to pay; but such was the distressed state of their finances, that any further urgency could not be used at present, considering the state to which Austria had been reduced, in consequence of her exertions during the late war.—The right hon. gent. expressed himself extremely glad to see the impression which had been made on the minds of the hon. gent. opposite, by the statements which had been laid before the house, relative to our expenditure, and the resources we had to answer it. He was happy to think that the plan be had proposed and adopted, of raising 10 millions within the year by war taxes, had proved so successful; and if the house continued to support it, he had no doubt but it would be still more so. For it was clearly evident, he said, that there had been a progressive increase of permanent taxes during the war, The war taxes proposed in May 1803, were likely to produce 12,500,000l. he had calculated only on 8,800,000l. so that there was an increase of a million during the present year. The military expences of last year were far greater than those of any year, in the last war; but there were many expences in that year which could not occur again; for instance, those incurred for the building of barracks, and furnishing arms for the volunteers, cannot occur again during the present contest. It was very apparent, that we have assets more than sufficient to provide for the whole of the present debt, and outstanding assets also, to provide for outstanding debts. This might be ascribed, be said, to the rapid progress of the sinking fund, and the smallness of the loan last year which put that fund in a situation of 73 to 1; in proportion to the whole debt, which in a year of peace was as 77 to 1; so that, unless some unforeseen calamity should happen, we might hope for still further increase. He described the state of our commerce with the Spaniards, and all other nations, to be greater in extent and more flourishing; than at any former period; and he was happy to say, that the increase of our manufactures, as well as their improvement, bore an equal proportion to that of our trade and commerce.—The right hon. gent concluded with observing, that, although there never was a moment which required more exertion than the present, yet our resources were abundant, and our means would be fully sufficient to answer every exigency. This was abundantly proved by the papers then on the table.

again explained relative to the proportion of the sinking fund; the lower, he said, your funds are, the greater quantity you may purchase, and therefore in the same proportions your debt is decreased; but this diminution, it was obvious, must be owing to the low price of the funds, which could not be considered as a symptom of the country's prosperity. God forbid, however, that he should say any thing to damp the spirits or check the ardour of the country at a time like the present; but a liberal system of economy must be best adapted ultimately to effect the end desired.

said, he had not stated any opinion as to the probable produce of the war taxes. He only stated his wish that they might be more productive, and that the house might take every necessary step to render them so. He would pot deny that the sinking fund experienced an increase in consequence of the depression of the stocks; but that increase was so very trifling, that it could not be used as an argument to lessen the value of the sinking fund.

said, the way by which the value of a sinking fund ought to be estimated was, by its operating in such a manner, that every year, the public debt should become less in proportion, as the fund encreased. But, instead of that being the case, the debt of this country was continually growing greater.

said, the hon. gent was certainly incorrect in his statement, as would appear from this fact. When the sinking fund was first established, it bore a proportion of only 140th part of the whole of the public debt. But, at this very time, although the debt had been so much increased, the proportion was pot quite a 73d part. In Feb. 1803, it was a 77th part. It was, therefore, evident that the fund operated the contrary way to what the hon. gent. stated.

expressed his approbabation at the very clear statement which had been made of the finances by the right hon. the chancellor, of the exchequer, which were so satisfactory to him, that he would not have troubled the house in rising at that time, were it not to move certain resolutions of which he had given notice. The right hon. gent. then entered into some financial statements, to shew that the surplus of the ways and means for the last year amounted to 8,799,000l. and that the finances of the country were better by 2 millions. The hon. gent. concluded with moving certain resolutions pursuant to the same, which see in p. 1129.

observed, there was a material mistake in the statements presented to the house. Twelve millions were got rid of, because they related to Ireland, and 18 millions, because this sum was in scrip, and not funded. Thus 32 millions were disposed of, and the congratulations went round on the occasion; but he feared the public creditor would not be so easily pleased with this mode of payment. Another objection was, that the expenditure was stated for 4 quarters, and the receipts for five, the one being reckoned to the 1st of Jan. the other to the 1st of April. Thus an account was rendered founded on fiction; the house and the public were to be deceived, and on these nugatory representations we were to felicitate each other on the magnitude of the public resources. Numerous causes of an increased expenditure might be assigned. The seamen were now only in number 105,000, but it was on all hands agreed that, they ought to be augmented to 135,000; this would greatly enhance the expence of the navy. The war had thereto been only defensive, but it was presumed another year would carry hostility to the possessions of the enemy: this again would be an additional charge to the nation. All these contingencies ought to be provided for by the providence of ministers.

The Resolutions brought forward by Mr. Johnstone (see p. 1038) were then put and negative; and the following RESOLUTIONS, moved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, were read and agreed to; viz.

1. That the total amount of the public funded debt of G. Britain, was, on the 1st of Feb. 1803, 567,008,978l. of which 67,255,915l. had been purchased by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, and 19,180,587l. had been transferred to them on account of land tax redeemed; leaving a funded debt unredeemed of 480,572,476l.: and that the amount of annuities a charged on G. Brit. (after deducting what have fallen in) was on the 1st of Feb. in short annuities, and for lives, 589,979l. and in long annuities, 1,015,110l.

2. That the total amount of public funded debt, created in G. Brit. for account of Ireland, was, on the 1st of Feb. 1803, 22,348,000l. of which there had been purchased by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, 1,123,445l. leaving a funded debt unredeemed of 21,224,585l. together with long annuities to the amount of 9,791l.

3. That the total amount of the public funded debt, created in G. Brit. for account of the Emperor of Germany, was, on the let of Feb. 1803, 7,502,633l. of which 375,137l. had been purchased by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt; leaving a funded debt unredeemed of 7,127,496l. together with annuities to the amount of 230,000l. which will expire in 1819.

4. That the amount of the outstanding demands, unprovided for on 5th Jan. 1803, exclusive of unfunded debt, and of the anticipation of certain duties annually voted, was, 592,630l. That the deficiency of ways and means for the year 1802, was 171,431l. making the amount of demands unprovided on the 5th Jan. 1803, 764,061l.

5. That the unfunded debt, exclusive of the anticipation in the usual form of certain duties annually voted, and of those provided for by the aids of 1802, amounted, on the 5th Jan. 1803, to 9,933,248l. exclusive also of 3,000,000l. advanced by the Bank, without interest, for the renewal of their charter, to be repaid in 1806.

6. That the total amount of the public funded debt of G. Brit. was, on the 1st of Feb. 1804, 583,008,978l. of which 77,698,467l. had been purchased by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt; and 21,147,888l. had been transferred to them on account of laud tax redeemed; leaving a funded debt unredeemed of 484,162,622l. and that the amount of annuities charged on G. Brit. (after deducting what have fallen in), was, on the 1st of Feb. in short annuities; and for lives, 516,313l. and in long annuities 1,047,494l. and that a further debt, amounting to 18,200,000l. capital stock, has been created by the sums borrowed in the present session of parliament.

7. That the total amount of the public funded debt, create in G. Brit. for account of Ireland, was, on the 1st of Feb. 1804, 25,548,000l. of which there had been purchased by the commissioners for the redaction of the national debt, 1,595,671l. leaving a funded debt of 23,952,329l. together with long annuities to the amount of 16,203l. and that a further debt, amounting to 8,190,000l. Capital stock, has been created by sums borrowed in the present session, in G. Brit. on account of Ireland.

8. That the total amount of public funded debt, created in G. Brit. for account of the Emperor of Germany, was, on the 1st of Feb. 1804, 7,502,633l. of which 459,828l. had been purchased by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt; leaving a funded debt of 7,042,895l. together with annuities to the amount of 230,000l. which will expire in 1819.

9. That the amount of the outstanding demands, unprovided for on the 5th of Jan. 1804, exclusive of unfunded debt, and of the anticipation of certain duties annually voted, was 2,024,085l, that the surplus of ways and means for the year 1803, was 1,370,664l. reducing the amount of demands unprovided for on the 5th Jan. 1804, to 653,421l. the whole of which has been paid off or provided for in the present session.

10. That the unfunded debt, exclusive of the anticipation in the usual form of certain duties annually voted, and of exchequer bills provided for by aids 1803, amounted, on the 5th Jan. 1804, to 16,305,607l. exclusive also of 3,000,000l. advanced by the Bank, without interest, for the renewal of their charter, to be repaid in 1806, of which sum of 16,305,607l. 2,768,300l. has been paid off or provided for in the course of the present session.

11. That the annual charge on account of the public debt of G. Brit. after deducting the charges of management on loans redeemed by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, and the interest on stock transferred for the redemption of the land tax, was on the 1st Feb; 1803, 23,510,967l.; and on the 1st Feb. 1804, 24,110,475l.; and that a further charge has been incurred on account of the sum borrowed in the present session, amounting to 736,190l.

12. That the sum annually applicable to the reduction of the national debt of G. Brit. in pursuance of the several acts relating thereto, was, for the year 1803, 6,311,626l.; being about 1–77th part of the unredeemed debt existing in 1803, and may for the year 1804 be estimated at 6,851,192l. being about 1–73d part of the unredeemed debt existing in 1804.

13. That the net produce of the permanent taxes existing previous to 5th Jan. 1793, was

Which last sum exceeds the net produce of the permanent taxes on the 5th Jan. 1793, by 617,000l. and is exclusive of a large increase of arrears outstanding.

14. That the total net produce of the permanent taxes, in the year ended 5th Jan. 1803, amounted to 28,246,681l. including 715,323l. paid lid bounties on corn and rice imported in the year 1802; and, on the 5th Jan. 1804, the total net produce of permanent taxes amounted to 30,754,724l. including 43,977l. for bounties on corn and rice imported in the year 1803.

15. That the official value of all imports into G. Brit. in the year ending the 5th Jan. 1803, was 31,442,318l. and on an average of 6 years, ending the 5th Jan. 1803, was 28,419,626l. That the official value of all imports into G. Brit. in the year ending 5th Jan. 1804, supposing the imports from the East Indies (of which no account has yet been made up) to be the same as in the preceding year, was 27,441,874l. and on an average of 6 years, ending the 5th Jan. 1804, was 29,490,945l.

16. That the official value of British manufactures exported from G. Brit. in the year ending the 5th Jan. 1803, was 26,993,129l.: and on an average of 6 years, ending the 5th of Jan. 1803, was, 22,942,800l. that the official value of British manufactures exported from G. Britain in the year ending the 5th of Jan. 1804, was 22 252, 161l.; and on an average of 6 years, ending the 5th of Jan. 1804, was 23,834,340l.: and, that the real value of British manufactures exported in the year ending the 5th Jan. 1806, may be estimated at 48,500,683l.; and in the year ending the 5th Jan. 1804, at 40,100,870l.

17. That the official value of foreign merchandize exported from G. Brit. in the year ending the 5th Jan 1803, was 19,127,835l.; and on an average of 6 years; ending the 5th Jan. 1804, was 15,402,959l. That the official value of foreign merchandize exported from G. Brit. in the year ending the 5th Jan. 1804, was 11;537,148l. and on an average of 6 years, ending the 5th of Jan. 1804, was 15,323,500l. And, that the real value of foreign merchandize exported in the year ending the 5th Jan. 1803, may be estimated at 14,418,837l. and in the year ending the 5th of Jan. 1804, at 9,323,237l.

18. That, in the year ended 5th Jan. 1803, the number of British vessels entered inwards in G. Brit. was 10,347; their tonnage 1,378,620; and the number of men employed in them 88,035: that the number of British vessels cleared outwards, was 10,282; their tonnage 1,345,621; and the number of men employed in them 87,304: that in the year ended 5th Jan. 1803, the number of foreign vessels entered inwards, in G. Brit. was 5,497; their tonnage 780,155; and the member of men employed in them 40,520; and that the number of foreign vessels cleared outwards, was 5,626; their tonnage 804,880; and the number of men employed in them 42,414.

19. That in the year ending the 5th Jan. 1804, the number of British ships entered inwards, in G. Brit. was 11,396; their tonnage 1,614,365; and the number of men employed to navigate them 93,004: that the number of British ships cleared outwards was 11,072; their tonnage 1,444,840; and the number of men employed to navigate them 92,940: that, in the same year, the number of foreign ships inwards, in G. Brit. was 4252; their tonnage 638,034; and the number of men employed in them 33;660: that the number foreign ships cleared outwards was 3662; their tonnage 574,542; and the number of men employed 30,414: making an increase, in the year 1803, as compared with the year 1802, of British vessels entered inwards, viz. 1049 ships, 235,745 tons, 4969 men; and an increase of British vessels, cleared outwards, of 790 ships, 99.219 tons, 5636 men; and making a diminution in the year 1803, compared with the year 1802, in the number of foreign vessels entered inwards, viz. ships 1245, tons 140,121, men 6860; and a diminution of Foreign vessels, cleared outwards, of ships 1964, tons 230,338, men 12,000.

20. That the number of registered vessels belonging to the British dominions, and employed in trade in the year 1802, was 20,568; their tonnage; and number of seamen navigating the same, 154,530: and in the year 1803, the number of vessels was 21,445; their tonnage 2,238,249; and the number of men 155,445; being an increase of 877 ships, of 110,194 tons, and of 915 men.

21. That the total sum to be raised in G. Brit. in the year 1804, may be estimated as follows:

22. That the funds applicable to discharge the sum required for the service of the year 1804, may be estimated as follows:

The following ADDITIONAL RESOLUTIONS, moved by Mr. Vansittart, were also read and agreed to, viz.