rose and addressed the committee as follows: Mr. Alexander; the first article of supply that has been voted, to which I shall call the attention of the committee, is the supply for the naval service. The total amount of what has been already voted, exclusive of the sum of 390,000l for ordnance sea service, is 14,645,630l. exceeding by 2,600,000l. the amount of what was voted last year for the same service. The excess has arisen from the sum of 1,800,000l. for the expences attending the 20,000 additional seamen voted this year, and for the increase in the extraordinaries and transport service. The next article of supply is the army; there has been already voted under this head, the sum of 10,000,000l. for guards, garrison, militia, & c. I will not detain the committee by going over the different items, but there remain still two articles to be voted, the estimate of the extraordinaries, and of the expences of the volunteer corps; in the latter article there may be some small diminution, but I will take the amount at 1,100,000l. The extraordinaries I calculate to amount to the same as last year, 3,660,000l. These two items, added to the total of ten millions, make an aggregate sum, exclusively of the expence under the same head for Ireland, of 14,778,391l. which is an exceeding beyond tile last year of about 300,100l. For Ireland, under the head of army, there has been already voted the sum of 2,838,000l. To these remain to be voted the sum of 300,000l. and the same sum for the expence of volunteer corps, making the whole amount for Ireland 3,838,506l. The total amount of the votes for the army, therefore, for both countries will be 18,6l6,89l. The total amount under the same head of service for last year, was 19,143,000l. The next service is the ordnance; the amount for England is 4,246,994l.; for Ireland 600,000l. making a total of 4,846,004l. Under the head of miscellaneous services, there has been al already voted for England the sum of 611,000l. but some further sums remain to be voted, which will make the total for England 800,000l. The miscellaneous services for Ireland, including those usual permanent grants in consequence of the Union, amount to 650,000l. making the total for the two countries, 1,450,000l. The total amount of these articles of supply, which I have enumerated is 39,559,521l. But there is another article of supply to which, though I shall not call upon the committee to vote it at present, I shall still take the liberty of requesting the attention of the house. This article is one connected with a subject of the highest importance to the interests, not only of this country, but of Europe. Gentlemen are aware that we have been engaged in a continental intercourse and correspondence, with a view to objects which we must all admit to be of the highest moment. Sir, I have felt the sincerest satisfaction at finding a general conviction on the part of this house, that the ultimate security of this country is materially and intimately connected with the security of the continent. It must be the wish of every man who hears me, that that intercourse and correspondence should be so prosecuted as to restore peace upon grounds calculated to produce and establish that ultimate security which is the object of all our wishes and all our efforts. But seeing what we do see, and knowing what we do know, it would indeed, sir, be rash and presumptuous in us to entertain an expectation that that great object can be attained without further sacrifices on our part. I will not go into details upon the subject at present; they will more properly belong to a future discussion; but feeling it to be my duty not to postpone the general supply for the service of the year, I have thought it to be of extreme importance to make such an addition to it as to enable his majesty to afford, with effect, any succours which it may be deemed necessary to afford; with that view, sir,. I have deemed it advisable not to postpone making provision for those pecuniary succours, in case they should he called for. I state them at 5 millions. This, added to the total amount of supply which I have had the honour of stating, will make the joint charge of the two countries, under the head supply, 44,559,521l. But the committee are aware, that from this gross sum there must be deducted two-seventeenths which Ireland is bound to pay, and two-seventeenths also for the civil list, and other charges on the consolidated fund, not relating to the public debt. The two-seventeenths of the gross amount of supply amount to 5,242,296l. and the two-seventeenths for the civil list, and the charges on the consolidated fund to 160,806l. making a total of 5,403,102l. This sum, therefore, is to be deducted from the 44,559,521l.; leaving a total of supply for G. Britain alone of 39,156,419l.—But, sir, it is also necessary to take notice of some separate charges which are to be added to that amount, and which do not belong to Ireland. There is a sum which J shall propose to vote of one million on account, towards the discharge of a debt due to the East India Company. A considerable progress has been made in the examination of the accounts; but I am inclined to think, that it will only be necessary to provide one million now. There is besides a sum, for the deficiency of the malt in 1803, amounting to 320,000l.: there is also a further sum to be added, to complete the payment of claims from America, amounting to 4l4,000l. In addition to this, there is to be added the deficiency of the sum voted last year on the growing surplus of the consolidated fund. That surplus was taken at 5 millions, but it appears that there was a considerable diminution of revenue in some articles. But, sir, when the committee consider the average produce of the revenue for the last 3 years, they will see that the diminution is of a temporary nature, and by no means so -discouraging as it may appear at first. It seems, sir, that the calculation of the growing produce of the consolidated fund last year, was made upon the former year, a year of almost unexampled produce; the diminution therefore, will appear to be greater on that account. The deficiency amounts on the whole to the sum of 2,80O,000l. making the amount of these separate charges which I have enumerated, 4,534,000l. which, added to the former sum of 39,156l, 419l. makes a grand total of supply for England alone of 43,690,419l: But for the convenience of gentlemen I will enumerate the different heads of

—It is not my intention, sir, long to detain the committee on the present occasion; but as the right hon. gent. has dwelt on the state of the continent in terms which, if I remained silent, might appear to be unexceptionable, I will trouble the house with a few observations. As far as the general sentiment of the state of the continent reaches, it has my hearty assent; but if it should be sought to pledge us by any thing which has transpired this night, as to the time when aid ought to be given to the continental powers, or any opinion as to continental alliances, in the, existing situation of this country and Europe, and considering too, the difficulty of forming any such, which the right hon. gent, himself has not disguised from usin his speech, I should, sir, for one, and I rather think the committee would be inclined to differ with the right hon. gent. In the mode of bringing this subject forward, which is of a nature unconstitutional, there is a palpable irregularity. Heretofore, every matter of vote was previously brought forward in a committee of supply, whereas, in this instance, it is first agitated in a committee of ways and means. The committee of supply is, however, the only regular place fur such a business: for the house ought, first of all, regularly to decide in a committee on the propriety of the vote, its amount, the time of granting the supply, and all the other preliminary circumstances, of the transaction. And if there was no reason for extraordinary dispatch, all this might as well have happened on the present occasion. From the course that has been taken, we might be supposed to agree to the propriety of the sum; and not even to object to an almost immediate appropria- tion. As the vote stands, the house might seem pledged to the grant. The 'right hon. gent, might, accordingly, on any future day, tell the house that there could be no material objection to provide for the sum; yet, most probably, we should see occasion- to object not only to the lime and manner, but also to the quantum employed. Undoubtedly, sir, I can believe that the right hon. gent. has no intention to jock up the judgment of the committee, I dare say he meant the question of the propriety of the vote to be left to the house; but as, still, the house might be thought pledged in some sense to the measure, I have thought it my duty to guard against the possibility of surprise.—With regard to the taxes, some of them appeal to me to be extremely objectionable. The tax on horses employed in husbandry is of this nature; for I know of no tax that could be more severe on a class of men more useful. Before imposing such a tax, every enquiry ought to have been instituted, as to the ability of the persons on whom it must fall to pay it, without the total ruin of their prospects. No doubt the right hon. gent. has enquired respecting this; but I apprehend that more enquiry than he can have made was necessary. This tax will assuredly be much felt in the country. I have also, sir, a great objection to the tax on salt; but as the propriety of adopting it will be discussed hereafter, I shall not now enter into it. In another view I could wish, sir, to consider these taxes. The mode of raising the taxes within the year has my approbation, in a general way. The principle, if not found to be inconvenient in its operation, is good. But here the operation of the principle cannot prove beneficent. It must operate vexatiously. All the taxes proposed to be raised are of a nature to cause the utmost inconvenience, and operate as an intolerable hardship. They are almost all of them direct taxes. Excepting the tax on salt, hardly any thing is proposed to be raised on consumption; yet the tax on consumption is probably the only legitimate tax. Nay, sir; I doubt whether hereafter we can have any taxes on consumption. When I am told that the taxes oa consumption, now subsisting, have experienced a considerable defalcation, I must be of opinion, that the sources of taxes have been impaired. Without doubt, the defalcation of 1,200,0.00l. on a revenue of 50 millions is not very alarming, provided it does not continue to en- crease. But when a diminution to that amount does exist, I do think there is some ground for apprehending that our, taxes on consumption haves reached, the limit, beyond which they cannot be made more productive. Another ground of objection with me is, the tax on property. The addition now proposed, I am sorry to say, will, if I am not much mistaken, lay the foundation of endless calamity to this country. One great objection to the tax on income is, that it affords a facility of getting near what we would most lament, that state in which a minister could take the property of the subject indiscriminately. This is precisely what we have to lament in regard to the tax on property, which can only operate as a facility to that deprecated end. This time 25l. per cent, are added, possibly there will be next time 25l. per cent, more put on it; after that, possibly, it will be doubled, then, possibly, trebled, until the principle is silently, but fatally established, of taking the money of the subject wherever, and however it may be found. I have also another objection to this tax, that though it is less unequal than the income tax, it is still very unequal. Landed property and property in the funds contribute fairly. But the other descriptions of property, such as arise from commerce and industry, do not pay in any proportion. If this is the case, I tremble for the consequence of going on increasing this tax. If a property tax be allowable^ even in time of war, it is only on the ground of its being regular and moderate. If this is to continue many years, and consumption, so far as yielding a revenue, is at I an end, it is likely the property tax will be considered as a land tax, or any of those other taxes that are voted annually as matters of course. I do not say that this crisis is near, God forbid it should be! If ever we come to the state when we cannot levy taxes on consumption, we shall inevitably be going the road that leads to the point at which we take from our income, where we can, and all we can, till we go to the principal, and in time take that like wise. With these impressions of the vast impolicy of such a growing tax as this, I own to you, sir, that I do from my heart wish the right hon. gent. could have devised any other measure. I never approved of this tax, nor of the principle on which it was founded, and I think that limits should be set to it which cannot be exceeded. In my mind, the taxes proposed, particularly that oh salt, will be found highly exceptionable, and I do from my conscience believe, that others less oppressive must be eventually resorted to.

—I do not intend, sir, to take up more than a very few moments of the time of the committee doubtless, meant the proposal respecting the vote for 5 millions to be as conditional as it has been spoken of by the hon. gent. I certainly did not mean the house to be pledged to the application of that sum, without full evidence of the policy of such a measure; only when the subject of the general ways and means for the year were before the house, I did think it right to bring before the committee the amount which I apprehended would be necessary, in case certain events should take place. Hat as to the time of applying that sum, the manner of its application, those circumstances of the state of Europe under which it may be wise and politic to apply it, on all, that the house will hereafter decide. Other motives induced me to bring the subject forward now. I thought it necessary, not to defer the vote, because nothing can take place in the state of things that has not taken place, except either the acquiescence or the refusal of the powers of the continent to enter into an alliance with us. On the other hand, it was desirable that the business should be brought forward early in the session, because from the lateness of the period at which this session commenced, if we did not provide for the vote now we should drive it later into April, when near a quarter's interest would unnecessarily attach to it, which, on the fair supposition of the funds being worse than they are now, would occasion a diminution of our means of providing for the general loan. Now, sir, as to the vote in itself, I could only say, that with regard to voting a subsidy of 5 millions for continental purposes, when the day comes for the house to take such a proposal into consideration, gentlemen will do as they please; in the state of the question at this moment they are pledged to nothing. With respect to the observations on the mode in which this subject has been brought forward to night, there is no informality at all in bringing the question forward in the committee of ways and means. It is, most certainly, not unconstitutional. I still agree with the hon. gent, as to his general doctrine, that this and similar votes ought never to be pri- marily moved, except in a committee of supply; but {thought it right to open the subject this night, from the considerations which I have stated above. Thus I have not only been careful to preserve the freedom of opinion on all parts of the question of subsidy, but to prevent all objection even, in point of form. For if the house should not be of opinion to allow the subsidy, the 5 millions designed for that purpose will remain to be applied to other services. With respect to this taxes, the hon. gent, wishes to reserve the more particular discussion till the bills shall be before the house; but even in the present instance, he laments that they are not on consumption. He thinks them too direct. I may think with him in a great measure, as to the superior advantages of a taxation wholly, or almost wholly, indirect. But, sir, will the hon. gent, gravely contend, that all the taxes of this night are direct taxes. On the contrary, the tax on horses kept for pleasure is a tax on use, which is in the nature of a consumption. There is another tax on horses, that on horses employed in husbandry, which keeps pace with the industry of the country, and which cannot be said to be a direct tax. The article of the post-office, that tax is growing with our commerce, and our means of general, regular, and prompt conveyance of intelligence, and all other topics or transactions of business which can be discussed by letter; a tax which attaches to a medium of universal communication, every way calculated to encrease and to render progressive the best means of national and general correspondence, which at the same time increases and renders progressive a most advantageous branch of our public revenues. These last, though not directly taxes on consumption, fall upon the articles made use of for purposes of consumption, and out of the 1,500,000l. 1,100,000l. may be fairly stated as laid upon consumption. These articles have, for the 3 last years, been subjected to many new and un avoidable burdens; but it is no slight argument in their favour, that the encrease is not attended with any diminution of the wealth, prosperity, or convenience to the country: Now sir, I will leave the committee to judge whether all this be not more a confirmation of my hypothesis,; than of the doubts and-apprehensions which the hon. gentleman entertains. With regard to direct taxes, certainly they are more inconvenient; but they are also more econo- mical than taxes on consumption. The best writers on the subject have said of direct taxes, that they are more inconvenient in the collection than doubtful in the principle and it would be most desirable to levy direct an indirect taxes, if peculiar circumstances did not render that far from probicable in the whole extent of a nation's wents. The objection to the property tax, I think a good deal lessened, by the consideration that it attaches most to those who have most, from which to contribute to the exigencies of the state; and as to the objection itself, that of its falling unequally on the persons whom it most reaches, I own there is an inequality yet still, as obliging persons to pay at all who paid no other, so far, I think the hon. gentleman will approve of the tax. Now, as to the increase of the tax, and the extent to Which it will go, no man can say with any certainty how much it will increase: and as to the consideration of the extent to which it will go, there is, on that ground, nothing more to be objected to this than to the horse tax the salt tax, or any other tax. If the tax is found such as the subject can pay. I see no reason why it should not, like other taxes, be augmented. Confident I am, that the more the productiveness of this tax is studied, the more will its beneficial effects be experienced. When I had first the honour of introducing the income tax, I took the sum total of the rental of the kingdom at 25 millions. The operation of this bill has however proved that the real amount is not less than 34 million, and assessments to that extent have been formed. There is no evidence whatever, that the commercial part of the kingdom do not pay their fair proportion: on the contrary, the assessments on this part of the public property, exhibits a fair and very extensive payment of the tax.

denied that the arguments for the increase of the property tax were such as applied to all taxes. For when a house tax became too high, a man might avoid it by ceasing to keep any house; but property was a thing by which there could be no limit till the whole was taken. With respect to wine, tea, or any other articles of consumption, taxation might proceed without reserve, because the individual would always have it in his power, as soon as the tax became oppressive and intolerable to him, to desist from them, He therefore preferred taxation of this sort to proceeding on dangerous principles, taking by little and little from, the property of the subject, till the reduction was tantamount to the risque of the whole, livery body knew how human nature was worked upon by every thing that assailed it by degrees. He remembered a fable, which, to elucidate the force of habit, related, that a woman in a certain village had a calf, which she accustomed herself to take in her arms every day, and from the gradual increase, was able to bear it when it came to be a large ox. The fable was a good one, but he did not like it in its application to the present case. For, however we might be able to bear this little calf, we could not possibly bear the great fat ox it would grow to. He, therefore Could not possibly approve of a tax that had no natural limit in itself.

thought it sufficient to quiet the hon gentleman's alarms, to state, that, in order to come to the point he stated, we should continue at war 94 years.