House Of Commons
Friday, May 31.
Minutes
A new writ was ordered on the motion of lord Ossulstone, for the borough of Shrewsbury, in the room of sir W. Pulteney, bart. deceased.—Mr. Foster, by order of his majesty, in compliance with an address of the house, presented, an account of the estimates of the expences of the board of first fruits in Ireland; also An estimate of the expences for the improvement of the harbour of Howth, near Dublin. Ordered to lie on the table.—The Broadstairs Harbour Improvement bill was read a third time and passed.—Lord Archi- bald Hamilton brought up the report of the committee, on t e petitions against the corn bill, which were ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. The noble lord also gave notice of a motion for an early day, on the subject of the matter contained in the report.—Colonel Craufurd moved for the following accounts respecting the state of the regular army, to the production of which he understood no objection would be made. 1st, An account of the total effective strength of the regular army on the 1st of May, 1805. This he wished to have only in the aggregate, lest any objection should be made to the disclosure of the detail of distribution. 2d, A return of the number of men that had been raised by the additional force bill, in the few months from the 1st of January, to the 30th of April, 1805, specifying the number raised by the parishes, and by recruiting. 3d, An account of the number of men raised by the ordinary recruiting within the same period. 4th, An account of the casualties in the regular troops on the home establishment, within the same period; and, 5th, An account of the casualties in the foreign stations within the last four months, for which returns have been received at the adjutant-general's office. These accounts were severally ordered. Colonel Craufurd then gave notice, that on an early day after the papers should be laid before the house, he should bring forward a motion on the subject. After a few observations from the chancellor of the exchequer and colonel Craufurd, the motion was fixed for Thursday next.—Mr. Jeffery having mentioned in his motion of yesterday certain papers which were of importance to the full investigation of the subject to which his former motions referred, without any preface moved, that there, be laid before the house, a copy of the letter of sir A. S. Hamond to earl St. Vincent, dated Dec. 28, 1802; also a copy of the answer to the same from earl St. Vincent to sir A. S. Hamond, dated Dec. 29, 1805. Ordered.—On the motion of lord Henry Petty, the returns to the order of a former day, relative to certain sums paid by the receiver-general of the land-tax in Scotland, were ordered to be presented forthwith.—On the motion of sir W. Elford, pursuant to notice, an account was ordered of the quantity of timber of a certain description that had been used in his majesty's dock-yards for ships of the line from the year 1785 to 1805 Inclusive.—On the motion of the chancellor of the exchequer, the house resolved itself into a committee of ways and means, Mr. Alexander in the chair. On the motion of the chancellor of the exchequer it was resolved, that from the success of the system pursued last year, it was expedient that a lottery to consist of 90,000 tickets, producing 900,0001. at the rate of 10l. per ticket, should be carried into execution in three lotteries for the present year, and that the lords of the treasury should be empowered to contract for any number of tickets for each, and to make such regulations as they should think fit, relative to the amount of prizes drawn. Ordered.—It was also resolved, that the charges of allowances to adjutants and serjeant majors of the British militia, and the allowance to British militia subaltern officers, should be defrayed out of the land-tax, and that the charges of the pay and clothing of the militia of Ireland should be defrayed out of the consolidated fund of Ireland. On the house being resumed, the report was ordered to be received on Wednesday.—The Universities Advowson bill was ordered to be read a third time this day se'nnight.—The Irish Excise and Customs bill, was read a third time and passed.—On the motion of Mr. Huskisson, leave was given to bring in a bill to amend the act of the 43d of his majesty, chap. 99, relative to the receiver-general of the duties of assessed taxes. The amendments referred to two points: first, to enable the commissioners of taxes in the different counties to administer the oath to the receivers, which, as the law now stood, was required to be taken before one of the barons of the exchequer; and 2dly, to supply an omission in that bill, by directing the receivers to repay the surcharges, now required to be paid in course, if, on appeal to the judges, the surcharges should be reversed.—The house, on the motion of Mr.Vansittart, went into a committee on the Dublin Paving bill, and the blanks having been filled up, the house was resumed, the report was brought up, the bill, as amended, ordered to be printed, and the report ordered to be taken into further consideration on Monday se'nnight. —Mr. Sturges Bourne brought up the report of the Irish Distilleries bill, which was recommitted, when the report was received, and after some conversation the amendments were agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Wednesday. —After a short conversation between Mr. Vansittart, Mr. Latouche, and Mr. Alexander, the Dublin Police bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Wednesday. —Mr. Huskisson gave notice, that on Wednesday he would move, that the report of the coal committee be referred to a committee of the whole house, with an intention of moving in that committee that a certain quantity of coals be allowed to be brought to London by the Paddington canal.
Camberwell Waterworks Bill
Sir John Frederick brought up the report of the committee on the South London Water-works bill. The report which stated only that the allegations of the preamble of the bill had not been proved, having been read, the hon. baronet moved that it do lie on the table.
Mr. Tierney observed, that the committee had not made any report of the bill, but merely that the preamble had not been proved; and contended, that in compliance with the forms and proceedings of the house, some report should. have been made on the bill itself. The committee had endeavoured to get rid of the bill altogether, by adjourning for six weeks, and afterwards by negativing the preamble and two material clauses, when directed by the house to proceed with the bill. He was at a loss what course to take on the occasion, and appealed to the chair for instruction.
The Speaker calling the attention of the house to the subject, stated, that the committee to whom the bill had been committed, having reported to the house, there was in form a report of it before the house. It would, however, be competent to any other member who disapproved of the report of the committee, either to move to negative the present motion for the purpose of proposing clauses on the report which might appear to him necessary to perfect the bill, or should that in his view be impracticable, by proposing clauses to move that the bill be recommitted, which would leave it in a state as if nothing had been previously done in a committee, A discussion of some length took place, during which the motion that the report do lie on the table, was negatived; and on Mr. Tierney's moving that the report be taken into consideration on Wednesday next, an amendment was moved by Mr. Baldwin, that it be taken into further consideration this day three months, on which a division took place. For the original
motion 9; for the amendment 51;majority 42.—The bill is ofcourse lost this session.
Conduct Of Admiral Sir John Duckworth
Colonel Wood observed, that in consequence of something happened since he had fixed his notice of a motion relative to the proceedings of the court martial on this officer for this day, he was induced to postpone his motion to this day se'nnight.
Mr. Baker was of opinion that the hon. gent. would not only be disposed to defer the motion to which he had adverted, but upon consideration would be induced not to bring forward a motion of so extraordinary a nature at all. He was sure that no such motion ought to be made but upon the strongest grounds.
Colonel Wood had considered the matter with the most serious attention, and was convinced that he had the strongest grounds for his motion, both with respect to the proceedings of the court martial and the conduct of the hon. admiral alluded to. It was to accommodate the minister of the country, who wished to have time to consider the propriety of the Motion, that he had proposed to defer it.
Conduct Of The Chancellor Of The Exchequer
Mr. Henry Lascelles said, he felt sorry at not seeing the hon. gent. (Mr. Whitbread) who had given notice of a motion for Tuesday se'nnight, in his place. He had himself yesterday, on a supposition that the part of the report of the committee on the tenth report, which related to the conduct of the chancellor of the exchequer, would not require much time for consideration, stated his intention to bring the question forward at an earlier day than that proposed by the hon. gent. But when he had stated this intention, he was not aware of the interference of the holidays, and that Many gentlemen might not have the report in their hands till Wednesday. One day's consideration of the report could not be sufficient, and he therefore had risen to state, that it was not his intention to bring the subject forward as he had proposed. His own mind, however,was fully made up on the subject; and he had reason to believe, that many members of the committee thought with him. If therefore, the resolutions which the hon. gent. meant to propose to the house should be of a criminating nature, he was determined, if not anticipated by some member of the
committee, better qualified by talents and abilities for the occasion, to move resolutions of a nature directly the reverse of those of the hon. gentleman.
Growth Of Timber
Sir William Dolben regretted that there should be found such a lamentable deficiency of timber, the growth of Britain, not merely for domestic purposes, nut even fot the supply of our navy. He thought that no enclosure should be allowed without making it compulsory on those who were to be benefited by it, to plant a certain quantity of timber. He should, therefore, move for a committee to take into consideration the state of growing timber in this country, and he expected the assistance of every country and county member on this point.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, while he admitted the importance of the subject, was compelled to observe, that the only mode Of increasing timber, recommended in the observations of the hon. baronet, was one which was compulsory, but which was not reconcileable to sound policy and expediency
Sir W. DOlben considered all enclosures as equally compulsory in principle. They were never agreed to without dissentients, Who could not have their land as they pleased, but were obliged to submit. He saw no hardship, in the same rule, in making men who were engaged in enclosures for their private benefit, do something for the public advantage also. An acre in fifty was not too much to require in such a case.
Sir W. Elford objected to the principle laid down by the hon. baronet.
Admiral Markham thought that the subject was a very important one. If this were not a proper time to discuss it, such a time must soon arrive. He spoke as an eye-Witness. He had seen the lamentable situation in which we were sometimes placed, from the want of sufficient British timber. There was a great deal to enquire into. Perhaps the matter ought to be taken up in a more enlarged sense than was now proposed. Beside the consideration of the royal docks, there was not as Yet an absolute dearth, but there soon Would be one. Something might possibly be done to prevent the unnecessary consumption of timber, especially oak timber, and more regulations passed concerning export and duty, as the whole of the subject required full consideration.—The motion was negatived.
Conduct Of Sir Home Popham
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, after a few observations, took notice of the report from the committee, stating the answer of the house of lords to the application for leave to examine lord St. Vincent before the committee; that committee had wished to examine his lordship on sundry points respecting Mr. D E. Bartholomew and other matters, to ascertain how far his lordship had concurred in those proceedings. He believed it would not he denied, that it was unusual for their lordships to allow any noble lord to be examined by that house, on any point which might have a tendency to criminate himself. He conceived that the most regular mode, in every view of the business, would be, to move that this report be re-committed to the same committee.
Mr. Kianaird said, that it was resolved, by a large majority in the committee, to present this report as it now stood, to the house. The committee did not think it right to call on his lordship as a party, though possibly the lords might think some part of the evidence had a tendency to criminate his lordship: they did not think it fit to call upon his lordship as judges. He would rather send back the report to the committee, with instructions as to the sort of answer to be given to their lordships, whether specific or otherwise. He should rather, under these circumstances, request the attendance of Lord St. Vincent as a witness, that, being subject to their lordships' limitations, as in the case of lord Melville, in whose case their lordships put that wide interpretation upon the request, that it might tend to matters to criminate the noble lord.
Sir John Stewart said, it was at first intended to examine Lord St. Vincent merely as a witness, but matters afterwards came before the committee, that rendered the attendance of his lordship in that view only, impracticable.
Sir W. Burroughs said, he coincided with what had fallen from the hon. baronet. He thought many parts of the evidence such as the noble earl would not wish to go to the public as they stood, and he wished to give his lordship an opportunity of correcting them. If the house thought they ought not to persist in the examination, it was better now to let it rest.
The Speaker said, the custom of the house was, not to instruct the committee as to their report; but the committee
were to gather from the sense of the house, in its proceedings, what method they ought to pursue.—The report was re-committed to the same committee.—Adjourned to Wednesday.