House Of Commons
Monday, July 8
Minutes
The paddington Canal bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.—The report of the committee on the petition of Mr. Collier and others, praying for compensation for their trouble on the Middlesex election, was presented, and the resolutions read and agreed to.—A message from the lords acquainted the house, that their lordships had agreed to the Leith Harbour Improvement bill, the bill for regulating the Baking Trade in Dublin, the Corn Regulation bill, the bill for auditing Public Accounts, the Spanish Red Wine bill, the Irish Infirmaries bill, the Straw flat Duty bill, the Dublin Paving bill, and the Pilchard Fishery bill.—Mr. Ormsby moved, that there be laid before the house an estimate of the salaries of the comptrollers of the lottery in Ireland, and also for the commissioners for granting licences in Ireland. Ordered, and afterwards presented by a person from the office of the Chief Secretary in Ireland, and laid on the table.
Petition Of Mr Todd Jones
On the motion of Mr. Hawthorne, leave was given that Mr. Wickham should, in consequence of indisposition, be permitted to speak sitting.
accordingly addressed the house. The hon. member, adverting to a petition on the table from Mr. Todd Jones, (see p 641) expressed his regret that this petition had not been presented at an earlier period of the session, or that the hon. gent. who presented it had not given him notice of his intention to bring the subject before the house; because, in that case, he would have been enabled to have such a case laid before the house as would have fully vindicated his conduct, and that of the Irish government, with respect to the charge which the statement of the petitioner conveyed. But he was now, from the lateness of the session, placed in this dilemma, that he must either make an imperfect defence for himself and the government with which he had been connected, or bring forward circumstances which it would not be fair towards the character of the petitioner to mention, as he had not the immediate opportunity of replying to them. At the time when a right hon. gent. not then in his place, (Mr. Fitzgerald) gave notice of a motion with regard to the several persons arrested, and in custody in Ireland, under the suspension of the habeas corpus act, he did promise himself that such a motion would have afforded him an opportunity to exculpate the government of Ireland from the several charges which had been loosely thrown out against it. He naturally expected and wished that the motion of the right hon. gent. would have led to inquiry because upon such inquiry he had not the least doubt that the result would have been a full acquittal of the accused; nay more, a conclusive evidence of their title to public praise. After some further prefatory remarks the right hon. gent. proceeded to detail the circumstances connected with the attest and detention of Mr. Jones. For some time after his arrest, which the Irish government was induced to order upon information, the particulars of which he could not, for the reason already stated, with any propriety describe, but which were quite satisfactory to their minds as to the necessity of the measure, Mr. Jones remained in prison without any particular inquiry having been instituted into his case. As soon, however, as the trials, which followed the insurrection of 1803, and which so much occupied the attention of the Irish government, had terminated, an inquiry into the case of Mr. Jones took place, The three allegations in the petition which he thought it necessary to notice were, first, the arrest of the petitioner; secondly, his being detained in prison after, as he states, the government had pronounced him innocent; and, thirdly, the harshness with which he was treated. Now, as to the first point, the right hon. gent. said, that he had already stated the impossibility of giving a full explanation to the house without acting unfairly towards the character of the petitioner. But as to the second point, inquiry being made, it was found that, although the conduct of Mr. Jones was such as justified the strongest suspicion, and would have warranted government in arresting any man; still he being a man of warm temper, and likely to use expressions, and indicate designs which he did not deliberately mean, it was the opinion of government that indulgence might be safely extended to him. In consequence of this opinion it was intimated to a gentleman of the highest respectability at the Irish bar (Mr. Saurin), who interested himself for the petitioner, that government was disposed to liberate him, provided he would quit Ireland, and retire to his residence in this country, where he had been for many years previous to his late return to Ireland. This intimation was communicated to the petitioner; and instead of replying directly to it, he immediately applied to the Irish government, asserting, that what proceeded from their disposition to leniency was a direct acknowledgement of his total innocence, and demanding instantaneous and unconditional liberation, with an indemnity; for his imprisonment. With that demand the Irish government would not feel themselves warranted in complying; particularly because, after the trial of the rebels, and the fullest investigation of the charges against Mr. Jones, his case became much more serious than it appeared to be at the out set. Willing, however, to act with every possible consistent mildness, his case was submitted to the crown lawyers, accompanied by this question, "Whether it would be proper to liberate Mr. Jones?" and their unanimous opinion was decidedly in the negative. Still more to ascertain the rectitude of their conduct, the Irish government transmitted the case of Mr. Jones to his majesty's ministers in this country, requiring their advice; and their answer was, that under all the circumstances it would be extremely unadviseable to allow such a person to be at large in Ireland. With this opinion from the law officers in Ireland, and the ministers here, the Irish government felt that they would have incurred a deep responsibility had they complied with the demand Of the petitioner for unconditional freedom. But as to the charge of severity' in prison, he could assure the house that nothing could be farther, from the disposition and the desire of the Irish government than the wanton oppression of any prisoner. On the contrary, immediately on the arrest of the petitioner special directions were sent to the general commanding the district in which he was imprisoned, that the unfortunate man should be treated with every indulgence that was consistent with the safe custody of his person. Indeed it was remarkable that to none of the generals commanding at Cork, who were directed to inquire into the situation of the prisoner, did the petitioner ever make any complaint of harsh treatment; and he was surprised to see such a complaint in the petition on the table. The right hon. gentleman stated that he should have submitted these observations to the house immediately after he had seen the petition, had he not been prevented by ill health, and he was sorry to observe that an hon. officer (general Tarleton) to whom he could refer upon this subject, was not in his place. The right hon. gent. concluded with again expressing his regret that this business should have been brought forward so late in the session, his wish that it should be fully investigated, and his confidence that the result would completely justify the conduct of the Irish government.
was about to address the house; when
rose and observed, that there was no question before the house, and therefore the hon. member would excuse him for this interruption. An hon. member had, by permission of the house, been allowed to be heard in exculpation of his own conduct against charges made against the government, of which, for a time, he formed a part; but no other member could, according to the rules of the house, be allowed to speak on the subject, unless he had some motion to ground upon it.
said, he had only one observation to make, and that was to congratulate the house upon the circumstance of the right hon. gent. having come forward to make such a statement. The sensibility which the right hon. gent. had manifested upon this occasion, was highly honourable to him, and it must be grateful to the house and the country to perceive that an important public officer was alive to the necessity of replying to a charge so serious as the oppression of a British subject.
Conduct Of Sir Home Popham
Sir W. Burroughs rose, pursuant to a notice he had given of a motion arising out of the report of the committee of that house, on the case of sir H. Popham, by which committee, that gallant officer had unanimously been acquitted of the charges that had been brought against his integrity and fidelity. But convinced as he was that the house, at this late period of the session, and when the attendance was so very thin, was not desirous again to agitate the various motions contained in 'the report to which he had alluded, and in other papers long since before the house, he hoped he might be permitted to postpone his motion till the beginning of next session, when he should move the resolutions of which he had given notice. The first resolution would be, that the charges brought against the integrity of sir Home Popham were wholly unfounded; and the 2d, That it appeared on the contrary to the house, that he had discharged the trust reposed in him with ability and fidelity, and so as to have powerfully conduced to the benefit of the public service. The hon. baronet was proceeding to offer the arguments upon which he rested his resolutions, when he was called to order by the Speaker, who observed, that he was going beyond the bounds usually Set to the mere notice of a motion.
Impeachment Of Lord Melville
Mr. Whitbread rose, and said, that, previous to his moving the order of the day for the house proceeding to the further consideration of the articles of impeachment exhibited by the committee against Henry lord viscount Melville, he thought it right to give notice, that it was his intention to-morrow to move for leave to bring in a bill to empower the said committee to proceed with, and bring forward the impeachment formally against his lordship, notwithstanding the prorogation of parliament, should they think fit so to do. There were precedents for this mode of proceeding, and it was rendered necessary in the present instance for various reasons. There was a witness now on his way from Edinburgh to be examined on this business, who, it was' probable, might not arrive till after the prorogation of parliament.—Here the hon. gent. was proceeding at length, to shew the necessity for such a bill as the one he intended to suggest, when he was called to order by
,
Who said there was at present no question before the house, and that the hon. gent. would have an opportunity to-morrow of explaining himself more fully.
then moved the order of the day for the further consideration of the articles of impeachment, and suggested various trifling amendments in the preamble. The articles were then read over by the clerk one by one, and severally agreed to by the house without a dissenting voice.—Mr. Whitbread proposed an additional article nearly to the following purpose:—"That, after the said 10th day of September, 1796, when lord Melville was treasurer of the navy, the said Mr. Trotter did, with his lordship's connivance or authority, place large sums of money in the hands of Mr. Mark Sprott, after taking such sums out of the Bank of England for the purpose of private emolument and interest, or for purposes other than naval purposes." The above article was read, agreed to, and added to the others, and the whole ordered to be engrossed.
then moved, also, that a clause be ordered to be prepared for the purpose of reserving to the house of commons the liberty of exhibiting any other articles against lord Melville that may afterwards occur to them to be necessary, and that the committee already appointed to prepare the impeachment be allowed to prepare the said clause; which was agreed to.—The hon. gent. then brought up the report of the said committee, relative to said saving clause. Their resolution was read, and agreed to, and the clause ordered to be added to the other articles.—Adjourned.