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Commons Chamber

Volume 9: debated on Monday 23 March 1807

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House Of Commons

Monday, March 23.

Minutes

A message from the lords, announced their lordships' assent to the mutiny bill, and the sugar drawback.— Mr Whitbread observing that he had on a former evening stated it as his opinion that W. Drake had not received his wound in the battle of Camperdown, declared that a do. cument had since been put into his hands, by which it was proved that that person had actually lost his leg from a hurt received in that action. This document was a letter from captain Bligh of the Director, to Mr. Bewick, then Chairman of a committee at Lloyd's for the relief of the sufferers in that action. He begged, therefore, to be understood as retracting his assertion, and he would move for documents to explain the circumstance; but lest any false impression should go abroad, that when those papers should be produced, he would propose the liberation of the prisoner, he would observe, that the circumstance which he had just mentioned was not the only misrepresentation and falsehood contained in Mr. Drake's evidence. There were numerous others; among the rest he had declared, that he had never applied for relief to the admiralty, when in fact he had done so to the very person by whom he had been questioned. He therefore would first move for copies of all communications made by capt. Bligh, late of the Director, to N. Bewick, esq. chairman of the committee at Lloyd's, for the relief of wounded seamen. The Speaker observed, with regard to the latter part of the motion, that the Society were not known to that house, and therefore could not form part of a motion from the Chair. Mr. Windham concurred in this opinion, declaring, that however good the intentions of the society alluded to, it would be very improper that it should be recognized in that house. Mr. Fuller seemed to think that Drake ought to be liberated. After a few words from Mr. Rose, and Mr. Jeffery, Mr. Whitbread withdrew his motion on account of the improper recognition which it contained; but in reply to Mr. Fuller's observations, repeated, that the imprisonment of Mr. Drake, was not in consequence of the circumstance alone which he had just cleared up.—On the motion of Mr. Whitbread, the following papers were then ordered to be laid before the house: a copy of the Smart Ticket produced by. Mr. Drake, whereby he received a pension from the chest of Greenwich: also, a copy of the Sick Ticket sent by capt. Bligh, late. of his Majesty's ship Director, to the hospital at Yarmouth.—Mr. Bankes gave notice of a motion tomorrow respecting places granted in reversion. Lord Howick assured his hon. friend, that he should have his most complete support. Not a single reversion had been given away by the present adminis- tration, although it was well known that several very valuable ones had fallen in— Mr. Herbert obtained leave to bring in a bill to suspend for one year, the penalties on the regrating of Oak Bark.—Lord Temples, finding that the committee on this subject had not yet finished its investigation, intended to allow his bill to drop for the present session, and of course supported the hon. gent's. motion.

Change Of Administration

presented a petition from the chancellor, masters, and scholars, of the University of Cambridge, taking notice of the bill for enabling his Majesty to avail himself of the services of all his liege subjects in his naval and military forces, in the manner therein mentioned; and setting forth, that the petitioners are anxious to express their serious apprehensions of the danger likely to arise from the said bill if carried into a law, to the established constitution of this country both in church and state, not only because it might eventually,place a dangerous power in the hands of those persons whose tenets are not friendly to our ecclesiastical establishment, but also because the principle of the bill leads to the total abolition of the Test act, and to other still more alarming consequences; and therefore praying, that the said bill may not pass into a law. On his lordship's moving that the petition do lie on the table,

not to oppose the motion of the noble lord, but in the fulfilment of his duty as a member of parliament to put a plain and simple question to the noble lord opposite (lord Howick). Twelve or thirteen days ago, that noble lord introduced into the House a bill (against which the petition that had just been presented was directed) enabling his majesty to accept the services of all his liege subjects, of every religious persuasion, in the army and navy. About five days since the noble lord intimated that it was not his intention to carry into execution the order for the second reading of the bill, but to allow it to drop, to be afterwards disposed of as the house might think fit. The noble lord stated, that this intimation was owing to circumstances which it was not then in his power to disclose, but which at some future time he would explicitly narrate. He wished to ask, if that time had arrived? The public mind was in a state of great anxiety. Many rumours were afloat respecting a Change in the Administration: without any wish for such a change having been expres- sed by the people, or any intimation for the necessity of it having proceeded from that house (hear! hear!). Among others, a rumour had been circulated, that his majesty's ministers had endeavoured to press on his majesty a subject to which the honourable and conscientious mind of his majesty was averse. (Hear! hear!) Was that rumour true? He (Mr. D.) had obtained leave to quit London for a fortnight. He should see many of his constituents at the assizes, and he wished to be enabled satisfactorily to answer the questions that would naturally be put to him. He thought it unnecessary to offer any excuse for this intrusion on the house, the particular circumstances in which the country was placed, he trusted, would justify him.

replied nearly in the following terms: Sir, certainly no apology was necessary from the hon. gent. for the exercise of one of the first privileges of a member of parliament, that of calling upon his majesty's ministers for explanation upon any great and important subject. In answer to the hon. gent's. questions, I shall declare, as far as I can, consistently with my duty, what is the present state of the administration of this country, adding only, that, with regard to those circumstances which I do not at present feel at liberty to divulge, I shall rely on the candour and indulgence of the house, trusting they will believe that no man is more anxious, than myself that my conduct should stand fair with the house and with the country; and consequently, that the time must come when my duty to the king end to the public, and every consideration of private honour will induce me to make an explicit statement of the recent occurrences. In the mean time, I shall proceed, under the restrictions which I have mentioned, to reply to the questions of the hon. gent. To one of those questions I do not feel authorised at present to give an answer: it is that one which alluded to a rumour, which, if true, would, as the hon. gent. has implied, impute culpability to his majesty's ministers, namely, that his majesty's ministers had endeavoured to force on the king a measure which his conscience disapproved. On this point I will only say, that it is the duty of any minister, on any subject connected with the interests of this great empire. to offer such advice to his majesty as his judgment shall dictate. More I cannot now say. With regard to the other question proposed by the hon. gent., it only remains for me to add to the statement which I made when I signified, my intention of not moving for the second reading of the religious army service bill, that the circumstances which then prevented me from doing so have led to a situation in which I am now enabled to inform the house that, although I have not yet received his majesty's commands to deliver up the seals of my office, his majesty has thought proper to send for persons not employed as his servants, and is engaged in forming arrangements for a new administration.—The petition was then ordered to lie on the table.

Carnatic Papers

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in a speech of considerable length, which be prefaced by observing, that no change of administration could in any measure affect the question now before the house, inveighed strongly against the assumption of the government of the Carnatic, which he repeatedly termed one of the most gross and infamous stretches of tyranny that ever disgraced the annals of India. He dwelt much upon the subsequent treatment of the Polygars, who, he contended, were no more subjects of Britain than of Hesse Cassel He did not charge the lords Clive or Wellesley with the murder of the nabob of Arcot, but insisted that both had been the means of bringing about that murder. The hon. baronet concluded with moving, that there be laid before the house a copy of the instructions given to lord Mornington by the Board of Controul or the Secret Committee, previous to the Treaty respecting the Carnatic in 1792. The hon. baronet said, that beside. one now before the house, he had upon the same subject twelve other motions to submit to the house.

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in answer to the hon. baronet's long speech, should briefly observe, that of the papers now called for, one part did not exist, and the other part was already printed.

said, that not being in the office of the right hon. gent., he had not the same means of information, and therefore was not aware of what had been just mentioned. He thought the right hon. gent. answer a fair one, and was willing to withdraw his motion.

thought it better that the proper officers be required to lay before the house a copy of all the instructions that had been issued.

contended that ,all the instructions which had been transmitted, were already in possession of the house.

Col. Symes asserted that there would not be time in the present session to examine all the papers for which the hon. baronet had moved. Though he had given a long explanation of the object of these motions, yet the explanation was so imperfect, that he could not pretend to understand him. Yet there were one or two observations in his statement which he could not pass over without some notice—Sir T. Turton rose to order, affirming that the hon, gent. ought to confine himself to the particular question before the house.—After a few words from sir J. Anstruther, Mr. Tierney and col. Symes, the motion was agreed to.—The motion for a copy of the Review promised by marquis Wellesley to the Directors was then put and carried, it being understood that there was no such paper, but sir T. Turton wishing to have that fact formerly before the house.

also moved for copies of the official Letters, other than that of the 23d April 1800, respecting the papers discovered at Seringapatam, with the answers so far as not already printed.

contended that the greatest moderation had been practised in acting on these papers. He denied that the papers had been come by unfairly, or that any improper means had been used to shorten the life of the nabob, who was said not to have died a natural death. He died in consequence of the intemperate use of opium. The governor of Madras sent Dr. Anderson to him when ill, whose report was, that he found him labouring under an incurable dysentery.

would not now enter upon the merits, but he was at issue with the hon. gent. in the whole of his statements. Motion agreed to.—He next moved for a copy of the Paper containing the approbation given of the conduct of lord Clive in the transaction above alluded to, and in the subsequent arrangements with respect to the Prince. Agreed to.—The hon, baronet also moved for copies of the Letters of Omdut Ul Omrah, &c. complaining of grievances. Ordered. He next moved for a copy of a Letter from lord Hobart to Omdut Ul Omrah, complaining of the permission given by him to certain artizans, &c. servants of the company, to settle in his dominions.

said, there was no such paper, and that it was not respectful to the house to be moving for papers which it was known did not exist.

observed, that gentlemen might exercise their imagination to the great inconvenience of the house, if these things were permitted.—The house then divided on this question, which was lost by a majority of 30 to 24. The other motions were agreed to.