agreeably to notice, made his promised motion for the production of certain letters which had passed on the subject of the Cloathing for the Veteran Battalions, and which had not been produced in compliance with a former order of the house. He thought it necessary to explain what the nature of the letters and minutes, which in his opinion were material to the subject in question, and which he presumed to think had been improperly withheld, actually was. When he was appointed one of the joint paymasters of the forces, it occurred to him, that if any savings were likely to be made in the military department, the cloathing was a branch in which it might as probably be effected as in any other. He inquired accordingly, how other parts of the service were provided in this respect, and found that a person who contracted for cloathing the marines, did so at a rate greatly lower than that charged for cloathing the invalids. He sent for this person and found that his charge was only 1l. 1s. 6d per suit, whereas the charge then made for cloathing the invalids, was 1l. 7s. 9d. It turned out, however, that there was more lace on the cloaths of the Veteran Battalions than the contractor had been aware, he therefore increased his estimate to 1l. 3s. Having ascertained this, the right hon. gent. next sent for the person accustomed to cloath the Veteran Battalions, telling him that his wish was not to change any tradesmen, if they could continue to serve the public on nearly the same terms with others. He stewed to this gentleman (Mr. Dickie) the suit of cloaths, furnished by the person to whom he (Mr. R.) had applied, whose name was Courtney, and asked if he (Mr. D.) was willing to serve government agreeably to that pattern, for 1l. 3s.? Mr. Dickie replied he could not, and that if he (Mr. R.) could get any person to contract with him on such terms, it would be wrong in him not to close with the offer. After the pattern suits had been approved of, Mr. Rose did give Mr. Courtnay the orders, and some of the battalions were served by him. When he wished, however, to deliver to the noble lord (Temple) 2000 suits which had been prepared, they were refused to be accepted of, on the ground that they were of bad quality, of bad workmanship, and too scanty. In the mean time the noble lord again applied to a Mr. Box, who was a partner of Mr. Dickie, and received an estimate from him, not indeed as he had formerly charged, amounting to 1l. 7s. 9d. but to 1l. 4s. 9d, being, however, 1s. 9d. Per suit more than those furnished by Mr. Courtnay, It appealed from the minutes in the office, that this change had been made in consequence of complaints that the cloathing was of bad quality, bad workmanship, &c. and that letters had accordingly been written to the commanding officers of the different battalions who had been served by Mr. Courtnay, inquiring if the fact was so? The answers to this inquiry had not been produced; and it was of the suppression of them that Mr. Rose complained. He proceeded to read these letters, as they were to be found in the office, and stated, that so far from supporting the truth of the complaints made against the quality of the cloth and workmanship furnished by Mr. Courtnay, they uniformly proved his articles to be better, in these respects, than they had been for several years. The only fault they had, was that they were small, and under the general size; a fault which was immediately remedied. So, therefore, the minute in consequence of which the contract with Mr. Courtnay was set aside, and that with Mr. Box entered into, was unsupported by evidence, and proceeded on a false allegation. This might, in his opinion, become no improper subject of inquiry for the Committee of Finance, or the Commissioners of Military Inquiry. All, however, that he now wished to move for was that the letters from the commanders of the battalions as to the quality of the cloaths furnished should be laid before the house. He concluded by moving for Copies of all Minutes, Letters, &c. relative to the Cloathing of the Veteran Battalions between the years 1804 and 1807.

said, he should not inquire into the reasons which had induced the rights hon gent. to take on himself the present statement, when, if there was any thing in it, the Committee of Finance or Commissioners of Military Inquiry, were, as he himself stated, the proper persons to inquire into the circumstances of it. At the time the right hon. gent. originally made his motion, he (lord T.) explained to him, that there were a great many of the letters referred to contained in the minutes, it would therefore be unnecessary to produce them, and in this the right hon. gent. seemed at the time to acquiesce. There was at that time other information and other letters on the subject, which, being of a private nature, and not addressed to him in his public capacity, he did not feel himself authorised to produce. He now, however, had certificates of the facts, contained in those letters, and which he thought material. Mr. Box had cloathed the battalions in question for 15 years previous to the time of Mr. Courtnay's having been employed. Shortly after he (lord T.) came into office, complaints were made to him of the badness and smallness of the cloathing. In consequence of these complaints, inquiry was made, and a comparison was also taken of a suit of them with a suit belonging to another corps. They Were found to be badly made up, and from this circumstance, joined to their being of an under size, the contract was given back to the man who had executed it for 15 years. Two things were to be considered in a contract. It might be too dear, or it might be too cheap. The inadequacy of quality and size was in this instance, found to be by no Means counterbalanced by the lowness of the price. There was a difference between the two estimates of 19001. which surely the public could not reckon any object when put in competition with the health, warmth, and comfort of those brave men who had been wounded in their service. His lordship proceeded to read a letter and a certificate from the major of the second battalion, and from the quarter master of the battalion at the Tower, stating that the cloaths furnished by Mr. Courtnay were by no means fit for men wounded in the service, who required large and comfortable cloaths, but might be fit enough for stripplings. They were in general too small, some of them had to be cut down to join out others; 600 could not be fitted out of 1000 suits: some of those furnished by the former clothiers, were required to be issued to supply the deficiency; 200 were obliged to be returned; and when remonstrated with as to the unfitness of the cloathing, the answer by Mr. Courtnay was, that he would be a great loser by the contract. The noble lord referred to his successor, if applications had not been made to him, from more than one battalion, not to change the old clothier.

admitted that applications had been made to him, but the mode was now changed, being by advertisement for estimates. If the noble lord had been at all hurt by the agitating of the present question, he could not help thinking he had himself alone to blame, in carrying away in his pocket such evidence as seemed to support the step which he had taken, and leaving behind him in the office only such evidence as went to condemn him.

complained, that these charges were preferred without giving his noble friend the opportunity of a fair trial, From the information his noble friend had received, he was not only justified in transferring the contract as he had done; but he would have been highly culpable if he had not transferred it. He knew not whether the clothing of the marines was furnished by Mr. Courtnay; but he had heard while at the admiralty very general complaints of the marine clothing.

thought the statement of this night entirely owing to the noble lord's own conduct. If he was inconvenienced he had himself alone to blame.

thought that though the, right hon. gent. might be justified in bringing forward the measure, he could not be justified in not now proceeding in it.

approved of the mode in which the business had been brought forward.

wished to know if the noble lord meant to say that the substance of the letters were contained in the Minutes, or only that they were referred to in them?

answered the question by reading a part of the minutes.

begged the house to consider its own dignity. If this practice of recrimination was to be perpetually resorted to; if when a charge was to be made against one party, it was answered by a counter complaint, there never would be an end to any debate in that house. He thought the subject ought to go before a committee of inquiry, without further ceremony.

read extracts of letters from various commanding officers, expressing their satisfaction with the manner in which Mr. Courtnay had executed his contract. The late ministry had written a circular letter, inviting complaints against the clothing, and the uniform answer was in its favour, instead of complaining of it. But they did not wait until these answers were received; the fact being, that the new contract was hastily closed before they had received a single answer to the pompous inquiry they had affected to set on foot, previous to the dismissal of the former contractor.

said, this was one of the neatest jobs he ever heard of in his life. He was glad the house had taken up the subject of the army clothing, as it would lead to the discovery of a great many abuses in that department, and tend to better the condition of our brave defenders.—The motion was then agreed to.

to make his promised motion on the above subjects. He entered into a description of the office of Sheriff Depute in Scotland. It was a selection of local jurisdiction of the highest importance, and one in which it was extremely necessary that the duty should be performed with as much dispatch as possible. The Shrievalties of Sutherland and Caithness were formerly united, but, in consequence of the inaccessibility of the former county, it had been deemed necessary to separate them and to appoint a sheriff for each. This occasioned an expense of only 350l. a year. Sutherland was a county containing 26,000 inhabitants, and he appealed to all who knew Scotland, whether the appointment of a separate Sheriff Depute did not stand recommended on public grounds of advantage. He then explained the situation of the counties of Kinross and Clackmannan, neither of which had a Sheriff Depute. The Sheriff Depute of Stirling had jurisdiction in Clackmannan, and the Sheriff Depute of Fife in Kinross. In the latter county, as long as he remembered, the Sheriff Depute never did himself discharge the duty of his office, but appointed a substitute for that purpose, who, though a very respectable man, possessed no legal information. It became necessary to remedy these evils, and on public principles of utility, Sheriffs Depute were appointed for those two counties of Clackmannan and Kinross. To effect this, it became necessary to obtain the formal resignations of the Sheriffs of Fife and Stirling, who were afterwards re-appointed with their salaries.—He next proceeded to the subject of the warrant for granting a pension to lord Cullen, and expressed his regret that the sub- ject should come forward in the present shape, more especially, as on that day, or on the next, the barons of the Courts of Exchequer in Scotland would come to a determination upon it. He passed the highest eulogium on his noble friend, and declared, that a more enlightened scholar, a more profound lawyer, a more agreeable companion, and a more perfect gentleman, never existed. He would shortly state the circumstances under Which the warrant was granted, and he was sure, he should satisfy the house that what was proposed to be done, was not more than what ought to be done. In Oct. 1805, he received an intimation from lord Cullen, that having spent a day with the Duke of Portland, at Bulstrode, his grace expressed a wish to Communicate with him (Mr. Adam) on the subject of a pension for lord Cullen for life, with a reversion to his wife. The change of administration, which soon after took place, prevented the completion of this business. In 1806, it was natural for lord Cullen, who had been connected with the late administration, to bring his case again under consideration. He did not contend that in any case, it was fit to grant a pension to a Judge for life, but he contended that the crown should have the power of doing so, and he contended, that in cases in which a Judge was involuntarily involved in embarrassments, it was incumbent on the crown to endeavour to relieve him. Lord Cullen was the eldest son of D. Cullen, one of the greatest men that Scotland ever produced, and who had raised the reputation of the Medical School of Edinburgh, to the height which it then stood. Dr. Cullen, however, died poor, and left a large family; the younger branches of that family were in a great measure provided for by the public; but lord Cullen, the eldest son, could not guard himself from the effect of the embarrassments which descended to him front his father, and was in consequence obliged to give up two-thirds of the revenue of his Situation, to relieve himself in some degree from those embarrassments. Those circumstances were taken into consideration by the late ministers, and there was every reason to suppose that in August last the affair was completed. However owing to the official delays, the warrant for granting a pension of 400l. a year to lord Cullen for life, with a provision of 200l. a year to Mrs. Cullen, was one of the last acts of the late administration. From that period until Monday last he had heard nothing more about it. He had no idea that the warrant was for any thing else but a provision for life; he was sure lord Grenville Meant it to be for life. If when the grant was produced it should appear on the face of it, that it was during pleasure, he would contend that it was an error; the very circumstance of the reversion must shew it was an error. As he had before mentioned, the Barons of the Court of Exchequer in Scotland, were at this time employed in considering the subject, and he deeply regretted that it had been mentioned in the house of commons, until their report had been made. As it was, however, he thought it his duty to move that an humble address be presented to his majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before the house copies of the appointments of the sheriff depute of the county of Sutherland, and of the sheriff depute of the counties of Clackmannan and Kinross; and also of the warrant granting a pension to lord Cullen, one of the senators of the college of justice; together with copies of all representations and official correspondence relating thereto.

was desirous, that the letters and applications of the Sheriffs Depute for these counties should be laid before the house. Without meaning to throw any imputation on the respectable individuals who had occupied the new offices, he termed their appointment an unnecessary or wanton expense. To prove this, he entered into a history of the sheriffs depute of Scotland; they were divided into 5 classes; each class receiving a salary proportionate to its labour; by the new arrangements, the sheriff of Sutherland, who was placed in the last class but one, because no peculiar difficulty attended his situation, was to receive a higher salary than some of those in the first class. The sheriffs of Stirling and Fife had, it seems, resigned, to gave an opportunity for the new arrangements. He would like to know if they were not solicited to do so. With respect to the pension granted to lord Cullen, he would not follow the learned gent. in his detail on that subject, but he was surprised that if it was thought advisable to take such a step, it was not done in such a manner as to preclude the necessity of bringing it under the consideration of the house of common. He concluded by some severe remarks on the creation by his majesty's late ministers of two new professorships in the University Of Edinburgh—that of Medical Jurisprudence, and that of Military Surgery.

defended the institution of the two new professorships. There was scarcely a college on the continent, which had not long had a professor of medical jurisprudeuce, and the advantages of having a distinct professor of military surgery were obvious.

declared, that a more honest, upright, and able judge than Mr. Williamson, the Sheriff Depute of Stirling, could not exist. He happened to be with him when he received a letter from lord Spencer, requiring him to resign, protempore, in order that a distinct sheriff might be appointed for Clackmannan. Mr. Williamson declared to him, that such an appointment was wholly unnecessary, and exclaimed, in his Northern dialect, "Gude God, Maister Johnstone, did you ever see sic a job!" (A laugh.) With respect to the pension granted to lord Cullen, the reversion. to Mrs. Cullen was a gross insult to the morals and feelings of the people of Scotland.

never heard of the least necessity for the appointment of the new sheriffs. As to lord Cullen's pension, the character of that learned lord certainly stood very high; but when he was thus selected from a body of men, and shewn peculiar indulgencies, he thought if indispensible that more specific grounds should be stated for such a measure than what had hitherto been advanced.

defended the appointment of the sheriffs. The question was not, whether the sheriffs of Stirling and Fife declared that there was nothing to do in Clackmannan and Kinross, but whether the people of Clackmannan and Kinross were satisfied with the sheriffs not coming there to do any thing for them. He had never understood that lord Cullen was a very particular friend to the last administration, and he could not therefore see the justice of imputing the grant which he had received to party motives. Adverting to the arguments urged by a learned lord against the appointment of the two new professorships at Edinburgh, he observed, that similar arguments might have been applied with equal force against the appointment of Dr. Blair, as Regius Professor of the Belles Lettres; or of Dr. Walker, as Regius Professor of Natural History. Those appointments might as well be called jobs as the present; but he confessed he was not surprised, that men who had belonged to an administration the most unfriendly to literature that ever existed, and by whom genius of every description had been left to pine in want—he was not surprised that such men should condemn conduct so opposite to their own.

expressed his belief that the duke of Portland was not acquainted with the particulars of the transaction which was then the subject of debate.

defended the appointment of the sheriffs. In Sutherland, in consequence of the distance of the residence of the sheriffs, justice was not delayed but not done. The country was 80 miles from sea to sea, 50 miles in the other direction; had a population of 26,000 inhabitants, and ought to have a particular sheriff. Lord Reay, who had a large property in it, had intreated him for the last five years to procure that alteration, and he lamented that whilst he had the opportunity from his Connexion with ministers, he had not endeavoured to accomplish so desirable an object. He had said thus much just to give a warning to the right hon. gentlemen opposite, that if they meant this women's war of recrimination, for the purpose of gaining popularity, they would not find it succeed.

for Scotland contended that the duties of the shrievalty were now as before done by deputy, and that eminent person who had been appointed sheriff of Sutherland resided in Edinburgh, and could not have given his presence in the county for the time required by act of parliament. As the matter had been brought before the house he thought it right to be fully, fairly, and thoroughly sifted, and therefore he moved as an amendment, That there be also laid before the house copies of all official correspondence upon the subject.

thought that literary merit ought to be rewarded in the usual way. He was not a friend to giving indirect rewards for direct services.

did not think the public would derive much advantage from these discussions, but the right hon. gent. who represented them as women's war of recrimination, should not lose sight of the side from which the attack was made. He should look to those who sent forth charges of attempts to raise false cries, and wished no peculation to go to the country as their cry, as if they were all purity, and their opponents the advocates of peculation. He had observed, in the late administration, that they made great professions, without any corresponding performances, and attempted to gain popularity with the public upon false pretences. Under these circumstances, the public would derive as much advantage from the recrimination, as from the attack. The appointment of the sheriffs for Sutherland had been proposed to Mr Pitt,but he refused to accede to the alteration. The grant of a pension during pleasure to a judge was not only dangerous to the independence of the judicature but contrary to law. He had introduced these facts to the house on a former night only to shew, that the house ought to pause before they would appoint a committee, in which those gentlemen would have a preponderating influence who thought with the late ministers.

was extremely happy to find that he had the approbation of a right hon. gent. on the other side (Mr. Rose) whose name was so proverbial as an enemy to all jobs! That right hon. gent. could, he was well convinced, be very serviceable to the country, if he was to devote his time to an endeavour to make out discoveries of this nature, and if he had the support of parliament, the Country would not say that this was a woman's war. He was not himself, he confessed, so capable of defending against an accusation of this sort as those who had spent 14 years in extending the power of France. But on Tuesday next all these independent gentlemen would have an opportunity of testifying their zeal for the detection of abuses, by supporting the motion of a noble lord (Cochrane) for a list of those members who held pensions, places, &c. either in person or by other branches of their family.

in a strain of irony, lamented his ability to rise, after the very able, precise, and formal speech of the learned gent. However, the necessity of the new appointments of sheriffs, he confessed he did not see to be very clearly made out, neither was the term of Medical jurisprudence, very accurately defined. And the matter of the pension to lord Cullen was still less satisfactorily explained. As the learned gent. had not given him the most ample satisfaction upon the whole, he should vote in support of the motion for the production of the papers.

got up in great Warmth and alluded to what had been said by the learned gent. (Mr. Martin.) If the hon. and learned gent., said he, thinks he can put me down by any such insinuations as he has just made, he will find himself mistaken. He says that my name is connected with jobs, I dare that hon. and learned gent. to shew the instance in any part of my life in which I was con- nected with any jobs. All the rewards I have receive from the public are known to the public. I never put the public to the expence of a single shilling that is not publicly known. Whether I am under or over rewarded is another question. Over rewarded I have been, I am willing to admit; but still I say, that the public have not been put to a single shilling of expence on my account, that is not publicly known. If I had concealed any reward that I had from the public, I should think myself the most scandalous person in this country.

said, he hoped he had spoken under and within the rules and orders of the house, since he was not checked by the chair; and while he was in that order, he should convey his ideas to the house in the manner which appeared to him the most fit.

thought the house had heard pleasantry too long pursued, and fury too much indulged in the course of this debate. Of accusations generally and loosely made, no one disapproved mere than himself; but they were not to be got rid of by abandoning the subject in discussion. The questions here were not to be gotten rid of by the species of declamation in which the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer had indulged. When he talked, in lofty terms, of having his eye on the late administration, that he would strip off their mask, and made use of such expressions, the right hon. gent. reminded him of a considerable person of the last age, and to whom during his life considerable attention was paid by the public; he meant Mr. Pope. He had as pompously written concerning his power of exposing others as the right hon. gent. had spoken:

Yes; while I live, no rich ignoble knave

Shall walk the world in credit to his grave.

These words made some noise, and they were alarming to some persons at the time when they were written, but they were now considered as perfectly ridiculous. He cautioned the right hon. gent. against the same sort of ridicule, which would overtake him sooner than it did Pope. If the late administration had acted in any manner by which public interest had been sacrificed to private favour—if they had, for the sake of serving their own friends, done that which was injurious to the public—if they had given away that which nothing but merit could deserve, and bestowed it on their favourites without merit—let the facts be exposed, and the party brought to shame; but let not the minds of the members of the house be led away by vague and general declamation. As to the appointments of sheriffs to the counties of Sutherland and Caithness, the measure on the face of it carried so clearly its own propriety with it, that it rather was the business of those who opposed it to shew why it should not take place, than that those who favoured it should shew why it should; and the only question which he thought could be put on this part of the case, as it regarded the late administration, was, whether the appointments were made fairly and bonâ fide. As to the pension to lord Cullen, it was clearly intended to have been a grant for life. As to the science of Medical jurisprudence, he had only to observe, that it was known to every university in Europe, and it would be a reproach to us to be ignorant of it; for these reasons he was favourable to the motion now before the house.

wished to know, whether it was by intention or mistake that the precedents in the case of the grant of pensions to lords Loughborough, Eldon, and Redesdale, were departed from in the grant to Mr. Ponsonby late Chancellor for Ireland. In the former cases, the pension was to cease in case the noble lords should again be placed in the same office, or in any other of equal profit; but this limitation was left out of the grant to Mr. Ponsonby; so that if their project, that gentleman would again probably have the seals without his pension being discontinued.

had signed the warrant by virtue of which Mr. Ponsonby was to enjoy his pension. He had signed it under the impression that it was similar to the warrants for granting pensions to the other chancellors, and would not have signed it under any other impression.

vindicated all the circumstances that attended the pension of lord Cullen: he was intimately acquainted with them all, and was the person with whom the duke of Portland and lord Cullen had communicated upon that subject. As to the pension operating as a corrupt motive on the mind of lord Cullen, no man of any administration would venture to assert it. The same propriety he might assert, presided in the choice of the professorships, in the Universities of Scotland, and he would defy the gentlemen opposite to say, that under and former administration, such impartiality had been observed.—The motion was then agreed to.

begged leave to differ with the learned gentlemen who spoke last, as to this very disinterested spirit which it was pretended pervaded and characterised all the appointments of the late administration Was the pension granted to Mr. Ponsonby on his retiring from the chancellorship of Ireland of that description? was it even accompanied and checked by the usual clause that the pension of 4000l. per annum should not be enjoyed by that learned gent. in case he accepted of any other office to the same amount, or up wards? In order to place this matter in a clear point of view, he thought it his duty to move, That there be laid before the house, a copy of all the warrants, granting pensions to Chancellors in England and Ireland since the 1st of Jan. 1800.

declared, he had no objection whatever to the motion of the hon. gent.; at the same time he could not help thinking, that the hon. gent was not the most qualified person in the world to resist improper grants, when a Certain marriage settlement was recollected, and many other grants to the hon. gent. his family, and connections, got by what means, the Lord only knew, and for what the Devil only knew. It Was not a happy measure to come from that side of the house, when he looked round, and observed that every member then sitting on the Treasury Bench, all of them, to a man, enjoyed some place, pension, or grant, either contingent to themselves, or in reversion to expectancy, as provision for their families and relatives; he could not think this motion came with much grace from that side of the house. If he was to single out one man more than another, as the most unqualified man, taking all the circumstances into consideration, he would say the hon. gent. was the most improper and the least qualified to bring forward such a motion in that house. The noble lord believed it was not the intention of the late government, to give Mr. Ponsonby more than Other chancellors had received before him. Those who knew the character of Mr. Ponsonby, those who were acquainted with his independence and liberality of sentiment, well knew, that he himself would be the first to cancel any improper grant made to him, he would be the last man in existence to take advantage of such an act. He should say no upon this subject, except to declare, that it was not the intention of his majesty's late ministers to make this grant different from all others of the same kind; and if it became neces- sary to bring a bill into parliament to rectify such an error, should the hon. gent. move it, he would be the first to second his motion. But what, he asked, was all this objection for? to what end did it lead? to what good could it tend? He thought all this was calculated for the sole purpose of diverting the Public attention from those inquiries which the house wished to set on foot. The cry of "No peculation," to be sure, was most properly applied by gentlemen at the other side of the house; and he hoped that the charges that had been made, would not be found to prevail with the public to give up inquiry; but that if any improper offices had been appointed, the house should examine and condemn or censure as they found expedient. But this was not the object of the gentlemen opposite; no—their object was but too apparent—their wish was to lead the attention of the house and of the public to these topics of improper appointments and grants in order to cover with some pretence or other, the late alterations in his majesty's ministry, and the new appointments on the committee of finance. Upon the latter subject, then, what had been done? The right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer had appointed 8 new members, all of whom were selected by himself, in order to give him a decided Majority. This, he trusted, would not be forgotten. It would also be recollected, that 3 members of the former committee, among whom he must first name Mr. Sharpe and Mr. Lamb, who were objected to by that right hon. gent. as unfit members of that committee, because they were the most attentive of all those who attended, and the most indefatigable in seeking out abuses and detecting peculation in every shape. The third gentleman, who had been rejected by this right hon. and learned gent. was his hon. friend (Mr. Whitbread), for no other reason whatever, but because he was the active prosecutor of lord Melville. Sorry was he to witness the general spirit of attack and recrimination witnessed within that house; it was not a season for it; but when one party was continually throwing out dark and ambiguous hints, threatening to expose a something here, and to detect a something there; perhaps the best, the most manly way to resist such vague attacks was by bold, express, and direct opposition—to answer hints by facts, and senseless cries by a demand for immediate inquiry. He begged pardon of the house for trespassing so long at so late an hour; he had been hurried to a greater length than he had intended to have gone, but it was not easy for a man to keep his temper, when he heard of charges and accusations, and saw what kind of men they were that preferred them.

denied that he had said any thing in the slightest degree derogatory to the late chancellor Ponsonby, for whom he professed the most unfeigned respect.—The motion was then agreed to.