observed, that he held in his hand a Petition from a numerous body of men, styling themselves Roman Catholics, and praying relief from that house, in the hope that they might be admitted to the franchises of the constitution. He should not for the present enter into the matter of the petitioners' case, but content himself with moving that the Petition be received, and lie upon the table. On the 16th of May, however, he should submit a proposition to the house upon the subject. He fixed upon that day as the most convenient to several gentlemen who took a warm interest in the Petition, and he trusted it would prove equally convenient, to the gentlemen opposite. He had only to add, that this Petition was signed by a great proportion of the most respectable members of the Catholic body, many of whom had actually subscribed the Petition, whilst others, whose names appeared to it, had their signatures affixed by authority given to the persons who subscribed for them. The Petition, however, he should present as that of the persons only who had actually subscribed their own signatures to it. He moved therefore, that the Petition be received.

desired to know what was the proportion the real signatures bore to those which were affixed by the authority alluded to by the right hon. gent.

replied, that he was not prepared to state the proportion, but that the number of signatures affixed by order of the parties, amounted to several thousands.

suggested that it would be extremely desirable, if the right hon. gent. could point out any distinctive mark by which those which purported to be the signatures of the parties could be known and distinguished from the real signatures.

replied, that all signatures by the authority of the parties, were written in the same hand, whereas the bona fide signatures were written in the various hands of the subscribing persons. He could prove the signatures of some of them himself, and these were men of the highest respectability, some of them, for instance lord Fingal, being at present in London. He had stated in candour the nature of some of the signatures, and with a view to guard against any imputation that he had presented a Petition purporting to express the sentiments of persons who had never subscribed it. Every person whose name appeared to the Petition, was ready to come forward and subscribe it, but he had thought it better to present the Petition in its present form than to send it back to Ireland and risk the consequences of the various meetings that must necessarily be called in order to obtain signatures.

stated, that it was notorious that the Petition had been actually subscribed by several of the most eminent and respectable members of the Catholic body, and as such eight to be received.

felt no objection to receiving the Petition, if that could be done without departing from the constant practice of parliament. From the bulk of the petition, it appeared that there was a great mass of names annexed to it, and amongst the number, there must be many who had actually signed it, and whose names might be retained. But, if the signatures which had not really been written by the parties could not be detached, he should be rather inclined to receive the Petition even as it was. If any doubt existed as to the practice of the house, he should certainly prefer receiving the Petition, at the same time protesting against this case being drawn into a precedent, rather than send the Petition back to Ireland for signatures. But, if it should appear to be clearly contrary to the practice of parliament, to receive a petition under such circumstances, he did not think that the house should depart from its regular practice. Upon this point he appealed to the Chair, at the same time expressing a wish, that some mode might be devised of separating the actual from the virtual signatures, in order that the petition might be received consistently with the forms of the house.

having been appealed to, stated, that it was quite clear, that if a petition was offered to that house with signatures, avowed Hot to be in the handwriting of the parties whose names they purported to be, it was not receivable. The simple remedy for this was, if these signatures could be detached from the petition, to present it with such only as had been actually subscribed by the parties, in which case the Petition would be received. That house knew of no petitioners; it considered only the matters substantially contained in the petition. There were two ways, by either of which the present difficulty might be got over. The signatures which were not real might be erased, and the petition presented with the original signatures; but that was hazardous both to the parties and the hon. member who should undertake to cancel any names appearing to the petition. The other course was, to detach the signatures that were not original from the petition, and as far as that could be done, to present it with such of the original signatures as were annexed to the petition.

acquiesced in the rule laid down by the Chair in ail ordinary cases, but asserted that the peculiar circumstances of the present case were such as to except it from the application of the ordinary rule. There was no man from Ireland who did not know that two or three millions of signatures could be obtained for the petition. The petition might be received as the petition of those only who had actually subscribed it. If the petition had come from persons partially interested, there might be some reason for inquiring into the signatures, but as this petition expressed the sentiments of so large a portion of the people of Ireland, no form ought to be allowed to keep it out of that house. He thought, therefore, that it ought to be received upon the assurance of his right hon. friend, that he believed the signatures to be those of the parties, or annexed by the authority of the parties.

(knight of Kerry) felt much difficulty upon the present occasion, bowing, as he did, to the authority of the Chair. He was convinced that more inconvenience would result from sending the petition back to be regularly signed, than from receiving the petition in its present form. Having taken some pains to ascertain the real state of the case respecting the signatures to this petition, he could assure the house that they were 17,000 in number, and that several thousands of these were original signatures. Many of the other signatures had been added on the authority of petitions upon the same subject from different counties in Ireland, which were actually subscribed by the persons whose names appeared to them. When the petition was subscribed by several thousands of original signatures, it became a serious question, if the object of it was to be defeated by an error in point of form. If sent back, it would be easy to obtain millions of subscribers, but he begged the house to consider what might be the effect of referring this petition back to these millions. He put it to his majesty's ministers whether they would risk, by rendering such a course necessary, the disturbance of that harmony, which they were all so anxious to preserve. The signatures had been procured from all parts of Ireland, and included the most respectable amongst the Roman Catholics, because it had been objected against former petitions that they did not express the sentiments of the whole body. But if the house should send it back, he was sure that the signatures would be procured, in a temperate manner. There would be other petitions presented from different parts of the country, and, as he understood, one from a Northern county, with upwards of 30,000 signatures.

adverted shortly to the Manchester Petition for Peace, which was said to have contained 47,000 signatures, and stated, that he had since been informed that there had been no more than 1600 original signatures to that petition, and that many of the names annexed to it were those of men long dead. He was glad the law of parliament had been now laid down, because, though it was the first right of the subject to bring his complaint before that house, much inconvenience would arise if the practice of annexing the names of dead persons to petitions were to be countenanced.

deprecated every application of the case stated by the hon. bart. to the present case. Persons might differ on the question respecting war or peace, but no man could doubt that the whole Catholic, population of Ireland were desirous of being admitted to the franchises of the constitution. If ever the rule of the house was to be departed from, it was in the present instance.

lamented the awkward situation in which the petitioners would be placed if this petition should be rejected. It would be an inhospitable reception that would be given to the claims of the petitioners. If the rule laid down was to be strictly observed, it would be peculiarly severe with respect to petitions from Ireland. No member who might present one from that country, particularly if of a popular nature, could possibly prove that all the signatures were real. Under these circumstances, the people of Ireland could have no communication with that house. He had presented petitions from several cities in Ireland, the signatures to which he could not have verified. He left it to the good sense of the house, whether they ought to be too critical in judging of petitions, when they conscientiously knew that the petitions contained the sentiments of those whose signatures were annexed. He protested against the application of the statement of the hon. baronet (sir R. Peele) to this case, because he was perfectly convinced, that the petition expressed the real sentiments of all whose names were subscribed to it. If they sent that back which other great bodies received, would not the Catholics of Ireland be discouraged from, any communication with the lower house of parliament? He remembered having presented a petition at one time to the Irish parliament, which had 40 or 50,000 signatures, of which only 7000 were original, yet that produced no difficulty. He knew it was discretionary in the house to receive the petition in its present shape, and he must put it therefore to their discretion. If the petition was to be sent back, and meetings should be called for obtaining signatures, it was not his fault. He would not undertake the responsibility of it. He could authenticate many of the signatures himself, as others could many more, and he therefore again put it to the good sense and discretion of the house, to receive the petition.

observed, that there was not in any quarter a disposition to object to receiving the petition, but contended, that the usual practice of the house with respect to petitions, signed by many names, was of most substantial importance and real utility, and ought not to be departed from; for much inconvenience might arise from a precedent so establised, however strong the inducement might be.

explained, and desired to know, whether if the question should come to a vote and he should vote for receiving the petition, it would be any disrespect to the chair, after the statement of the practice of the house which had been so distinctly given from the Chair?

re-stated what he had antecedently communicated to the house; and observed that it could be no disrespect to him, for any hon. member who thought otherwise, to vote according to his individual impression. He had when called upon, as it was his duty, stated the practice of the house to the best of his judgment; and it would be for the house to decide, whether it would adhere to its regular practice, or depart from it in this instance.

did not wish to reject the Petition; on the contrary, he was desirous that it should be withdrawn, in order to its being presented in a more regular form. It. would be a painful duty, but if pressed in the present form, he must vote for its rejection. He was anxious that the Petition should be received, and as numbers could not add weight to the importance of the subject, the right hon. gent. by withdrawing the Petition, and presenting it to-morrow with any number of original signatures, would attain the end he desired. As Petitions were to be presented from the different counties of Ireland, the house would have the names authenticated annexed to these particular petitions. He had been informed of the circumstance respecting the Manchester Petition. One of the members for Cork had also presented a Petition, purporting to be from the merchants of that city, and in a few days after had informed him, that by letters received from that city, it appeared, that the great body of the merchants knew nothing of the matter till they saw it stated in the newspapers. He mentioned these cases, to show how loose the practice was becoming with respect to petitions, and how necessary it was to adhere to the regular practice.

observed, that the case of the petition from the merchants of Cork did not at all bear upon the present petition.

did not by any means wish that the house should depart from any rule laid down to regulate its proceedings; but at the same time he thought, in perfect consistence with the rule on this occasion, the petition should be allowed to remain upon the table. He could not see why the fictitious signatures, if any such there were, were to invalidate the real ones. They might let them he dead, and count them for nothing; and, surely, if fifty or sixty well-ascertained signatures could be made out, it would have the same effect as fifty or sixty thousand, since the importance of the petition was not attempted to be denied. He admitted, that if the signatures confessed to be real could be detached, it would be well; but, unfortunately, they were so blended with those called fictitious, that an attempt at discrimination would be utterly impossible. He hoped the house would not push the rule to its extent on this occasion, as it might lead to a manifest inconvenience; viz. that in case any future petition were to be presented, names might be fraudulently and clandestinely fabricated in the same hand, for the purpose of procuring the rejection of the petition. He thought the petition should, at all events, be suffered to lie on the table, with the names separate, if possible; but still, if that could not be effected, he thought it did not signify, as the suspected names might be allowed to go for nothing.

felt great anxiety on the subject of this petition. The petition did not derive weight from the numbers subscribed, but from its matter. But, if the signatures were so intermixed as not to be separated, he thought that it should be received in its present state making a special entry upon the journals, that it should not be drawn into a precedent.

was desirous that some way might be found out for avoiding the present difficulty, but did not think that any thing with respect to these forms should be granted as a present indulgence, which might be a future embarrassment. He thought it impossible but that in such a mass of names the right hon. gentleman would find many which he could attest, and as numbers made no difference in the importance of this question, the petition might be presented with these signatures only.

severally explained; after which, Mr. Grattan proposed, with the leave of the house, to withdraw the Petition, with a view to procure original signatures, in which case he should not be able to present it before the recess. He should, however, present it by the 16th of May, on which day, he should move for the appointment of a Committee upon it.—After a few words from Messrs. Whitbread and William Smith, recommending the adoption of the line pointed out by Mr. Yorke, to receive the Petition and make a special entry, the Petition was withdrawn.

said, he had not long since had occasion to call the attention of the house to the general consideration of our military establishment; but, at the same time, the house would allow, with reason, that the first consideration was due to our regular army, rather than to those descriptions of force which were secondary and collateral to it. It was the duty of government, however, to attend to all parts of the military system, and to provide effectually for the maintenance and discipline, not only of those descriptions of force that always had arms in their hands, but also of those that were armed only provisionally for the purpose of training and discipline, with a view to eventual emergency. Having proposed that first which was of most importance, he was happy to congratulate the house, that by the success that had attended the measures which it had been his good fortune to propose to the house last year, no legislative care was any longer necessary for the establishment of a regular army. The zeal with which the act passed on his suggestion had been carried into effect, having added 40,000 men to our regular establishment, that most important branch of our military system might be safely left to the protection of the ordinary recruiting. The regular army and militia being in this perfect state, we might now proceed to the arrangement of those other parts of our establishment which were neither less important, nor less difficult to be properly regulated. Having taken the measures last year, which operated so beneficially for the regular army, he thought the country might rest with safety upon those measures, till more precise information as to the number and discipline of the volunteers under arms should furnish to the legislature more authentic materials than could then be had, there being no immediate communication between government and the volunteer corps as there was now, by means of the inspecting field officers. By means of these officers, the most accurate information was now obtained on these important points, and though the arrangement of so important a matter was full of difficulties, which were enhanced by the labours bestowed on it by his predecessors, and particularly by the able individual who had gone before him, he and his colleagues would be wanting in their duty if they did not turn their attention to it as early as they could, and if they did not bring forward as they now did through him a plan of subsidiary defence. In looking to the amount and description of our army in general, he had already congratulated the house that there was no longer any room for anxiety. In point of number and discipline our army was beyond any thing this country ever enjoyed. To the volunteers he was happy to pay that share in this general tribute, to which the testimony of the inspecting field officers proved them justly entitled. No force was ever better qualified for the immediate defence of the country, none better entitled to its confidence, and as long as they felt inclined, and convenience permitted them, to do duty in the manner they now did, it was impossible he could imagine a force to which he would be more disposed to trust the fate and fortunes of the British empire. He should, however, be wanting in his duty, if he did not look forward to the time when occasions might arise, in which the services of so large a proportion of the community as volunteers, would appear no longer called for by any pressing emergency, This was the crisis which he felt it his duty to provide for, and no time could be so properly selected to make that provision at the present moment, when the volunteer corps were so high in number, zeal, and discipline, when defalcation appeared to be at a great distance, and when the remedy that might be provided for its eventual existence might be matured and perfected before it would be wanted, and might come into operation so gradually and imperceptibly as to create none of those agitations that were unavoidable, when great deficiencies were to be supplied by sudden exertions. If the war should continue very long, or if a peace should be made, the volunteers might in either case return to those domestic habits from which the imminent danger of the country, a call always imperative on Britons, had drawn them forth. This event, whenever it might take place, it was the duty of government to see that the country was prepared for. Hence arose the necessity of proposing a plan that would be equally operative in peace and in war, and the effect of which would be that the country would be at no moment, unprepared. It was better that the attention of parliament should be called to this subject in time of war than in peace, for nothing was more inconsistent with peace, nothing more likely to disturb its tranquillity, or to shorten its duration, than to agitate inquiries, and to be occupied about arrangements connected with war. He supposed no argument was necessary to convince gentlemen of the propriety of making every possible exertion to put our military establishment in the most respectable posture. It was only necessary to look at the state of Europe, to see that by no other means could we be enabled to treat for peace on equal grounds; and except we made peace on equal grounds, it would be no peace. It was necessary for us to put forth and array our strength in such a manner, as not only to render our coast invulnerable in war, but also to shew the enemy that he had no chance of accomplishing his object in peace, and to teach him to make up his mind to live in the world with one power, which he could not hope either to conquer or to intimidate. In this view, however high an opinion he had of the volunteers, he conceived it would be unwise to leave the permanent defence of the country dependent upon the feelings of individuals; and he conceived it right to propose a system, invariable in its operation, which would prevent the public security from being ever compromised.—Having stated this outline of the considerations which led to the adoption of the plan he was about to propose, he would now proceed to explain the ideas of his majesty's ministers with respect to the existing system of subsidiary defence, and the alterations they proposed to introduce upon it. An act was passed some time since, for the general training of the people. He had, in the last session, brought in a Bill for completing the returns under that act, and regulating the mode in which the ballot should be applied to them. The ballot, however, could be applied only to a small proportion of the returns, and even then there was not sufficient compulsion to render it effectual. It was necessary to state to the house, without reserve, the view his majesty's ministers had of that training act. The intention of it was, to enable ministers to advise his majesty to train 200,000 men out of the whole population. The parish officers were to do the duty of military officers and drill Serjeants towards those men. But neither was the training adequate, nor would the men be of any use when so trained. The time of the year when the men were brought together under that act, and the place where they were to be assembled, were equally improper; and they were turned out of the hands of their trainers unfit for any service, and without any obligation to any except in the event of invasion. There were some who considered training of value, with embodying. He was of a different opinion. He considered it of little use to have men trained unless they were regimented. The regiments of regulars, volunteers, or militia, into which they should be put after such imperfect training, would have little benefit from them. If trained in regiments they would be of real utility. The training of the whole number of 800,000, which number the Bill proposed successively to train, would have been a very general hardship without any benefit, or an imperfect and contingent one, except in case of incorporation. The volunteer training was such as to leave the men in a state of perfect discipline, fit for service, without any further instruction, whenever the exigency should arise. But, while the general training, in this view, was more vexatious than beneficial, there was another view in which it was serviceable. The men might be trained up so as to be qualified to fill the ranks of the militia and regular army, and, if it should be necessary to make use of them, they would be ready. Instead of training the whole military classes, a sufficient number might be trained to cover any probable exigency that might be expected to arise. The regular army at home at present amounted, with the militia, to 200,000 men, exclusive of artillery. The regular army, if raised to one hundred men to each company, which was no more than the officer commanding could easily manage, might admit 50,000 additional men. It would be a great advantage that this number of men should be ready trained, without any occasion to ballot for them. They should be regarded as an army of reserve, to be made use of only in cases of great emergency. There would be no occasion to have recourse to the parish officers; the men would be always ready, when a Local Militia should afford such facilities of general training, and the men so trained would be an acquisition to the regiments they might join. It would be sufficient training to drill the men 48 days near their homes, according to the system of the militia in time of peace, and to have them embodied 21 days in their own counties. A measure of this kind would have such an effect on the recruiting of the regular army, that the most ample reliance might be placed on its effects in any circumstances. It was not necessary to have recourse to it immediately, but it might be regarded as a sure recourse in reserve. Now, with respect to the volunteers, he was prepared to state as his own opinion, as well as that of his majesty's ministers, that as long as the volunteers could with convenience give their services to the country, with that degree of military efficiency which they at present possessed, government would not desire any more effectual force. But, it was essential to fix and organize a permanent force, which would always subsist to the same amount. Looking to the regulars and militia as the first line, and the volunteers as the second line, it was necessary to have a regimented force as a third line, and the point now to be considered was, what amount of force of this kind it was necessary to have, in order to fill up the deficiencies that might arise in the volunteer establishments. With respect to the proportion of this regimental training, some thought it ought to go to a much larger extent than was ever proposed before. But, when the nature and amount of the existing regular force was examined comparatively, with the training to be instituted with a view to its aid, there was reason to conclude, that the amount proposed by his right hon. friend (Mr. Yorke) for the limitation of the volunteers, that was, six times the militia, would afford ample foundation for a permanent subsidiary establishment. An increase might be made if circumstances required it, but it was unnecessary to burthen the country; in the first instance, six times the number of the militia would be for Great Britain only 330,000 men. The number of effective volunteers in Ireland was close on 70,000. Under this plan, there would be therefore a depot of 400,000, ready at a moment's notice to fall into the regiments of the line and the militia, according as they might be wanted to make them up. According to the last returns, the effective force of the volunteers in Great Britain was 290,000. There were actually under arms at the last inspection 240,000. The report of their discipline was highly favourable, and they were declared fully capable of acting with the line. He knew the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Windham), thought the volunteers not fit to be seen in company with the militia; but others thought differently, and he agreed with them. When the gross amount of the effective volunteers was compared with six times the amount of the militia, there was found a deficiency of 30,000 on the aggregate. But when this deficiency came to be subdivided, there was found an inequality, some of the counties being more deficient and some less, and among the latter the maritime counties; and the consequence of this inequality was, that 60,000 would be wanted to complete the establishment to the amount desired. He proposed therefore to give to the crown a power to create a Local Militia, to the aggregate amount of 60,000 men in the first instance, to be increased in proportion as the volunteer force should diminish, and to supersede them totally if they should withdraw their services in the event of peace. It was a satisfaction, that in creating this force, which was compulsory in the first instance, the country had the benefit of trying the experiment on a limited scale, to proceed to a more extensive application of the principle, if it should be found successful. He felt it desirable to proceed according to the accustomed habits and principles of the country, and therefore he would propose to conform the constitution of this force to that of the militia, but with this difference, that whereas the militia was now like the regular forces, the militia in time of peace would be assumed as a model, and consequently the services of this force would be confined to its counties except in time of invasion, or when the enemy should be actually on the coast, when alone it might be marched out of its counties. It should be assembled at convenient times of the year, for the purpose of training only, except in time of invasion, when actual service might be demanded. With respect to the terms of engagement, one year's training, as provided by the right hon. gent's, bill, was wholly inadequate. It was desirable that the men should not be taken away inconveniently from their occupations, without compensating the country by substantial improvement. It was desirable also, to prevent the too frequent recurrence of the confusion of the ballot, and on these grounds it was intended to propose an engagement to the individuals for a certain time, and to bind them to do permanent duty in their own counties for a certain number of days. This obligation he hoped would not be considered hard, at a time when the prospect of being able to continue the occupations of industry depended on every man's being able to defend the seat of that industry with arms in his hands. It was intended to allow no substitutes. This force was not like the moveable militia, which taking men for years away from their homes and establishments, would often be ruinous to families, unless substitution were allowed. A few days service within his county would be no hardship to any man, and if every one was allowed to come into the market for a substitute, the most ruinous consequences to the country would be felt in the enormous rise of the bounties, as in the instance of the provisional cavalry, in which, though the service was within the county, and to one particular period of the year, the price of substitutes rose to 50 or 60 guineas. It was, therefore, thought right to allow no substitutes. But, in order to prevent the injurious confusion of the highest with the lowest ranks, some mitigation should be admitted, and he proposed to follow the example of the right hon. gent. opposite, by allowing the party to retire on paying a fine of such magnitude as to discourage the having recourse to it, except in very strong cases. He would wish to encourage the service of persons of rank as officers: conceiving there were many persons who would enter into this service voluntarily, he proposed that such offers should be received, and that the ballot should be enforced only where there were no offers, no selection by the parish officers. He would not allow the parishes, any more than individuals, to find substitutes; for though they would not create so general a competition in the market, they would yet create enough to do mischief. To prevent this evil, he proposed a penalty on the person consenting to be a substitute, and on the parish accepting him. He proposed to give a small bounty of two or three guineas to those who should enter voluntarily, in order to render the compulsory obligation of the law unnecessary. It was intended to submit persons from a certain age to a certain age, to the compulsory obligation of the ballot, and by a little attention to the classes, it would be easy to determine the proper proportion. But it was only in the event of a deficiency of volunteers, that the ballot was to be taken up; therefore age could not be so well applied, and the state of the volunteer establishment would always be a difficult matter of regulation. It would be better in these circumstances to throw out persons of more advanced age altogether, and then there would be every reason to be sure that the young men would readily take upon them the increased burthen of a larger share in the defence of the country. Looking to a period, when instead of 60,000, the ballot was to be enforced for a greater number, he proposed that the ages to which it should apply, should be from 18 to 35, and when a sufficient number of volunteers should not offer, he proposed, that the ballot should apply between these ages. The qualification of officers he looked on as highly important; and he proposed that the regulations of the militia should be adopted as they now stood. No qualification on this head was required for subalterns. There was a latitude given in the recommendation of captains, if persons qualified could not be found. Field officers would be left as before, and though it was difficult now to get qualified persons to serve, it was to be hoped, that service within the county would be more attractive, and that qualified persons would come forward to undertake it. He would propose, that retired field officers of the line should be elegible, and he was sure it would be considered as a distinction justly due to those officers who had reached that high station.—The next point to which he should call the attention of the house was, that to prevent this Local Militia from interfering either with the regular army or the regular militia, he should propose that no man taking this engagement should, during the four years for which it was intended to last, be debarred from enlisting in the regular army or regular militia at his pleasure. He would, however, on this head propose one limitation in compliment to the commanding officers, to whose feelings it would not be very pleasing to have their men attached by recruiting parties, while embodied for the purpose of discipline. He should, therefore, propose a restraint on their liberty of enlisting, for apart of the time during which they should be embodied. He conceived it possible that volunteer corps might, in many instances, wish to change the terms of their engagements, and to become corps of Local Militia. It was well known that the establishments of some volunteer corps were more expensive than was necessary. This might be expected to produce some embarrassments with respect to funds, which it would be desirable to escape, by turning to a service which required no stock purse. This disposition should be encouraged, because the local militia would be always effective for service; but otherwise it was the disposition of his majesty's ministers to give every possible support to the volunteers, considering them, in their present highly disciplined state, preferable to any green force whatsoever. It was intended to put a stop to all insurances made with a view to the mitigation of fine attached to the refusal to do personal service; and with this view a penalty would be imposed on the person having recourse to insurance, and the person with whom he might insured. The whole expence of the proposed force to the country would not exceed that of the volunteers at present, nor that which would be to be incurred under the Training bill of the right hon. gent. He had made comparative calculations, and had adjusted the bill, which the right hon. gent. might see. The right hon. gent.'s trained man would cost more than a volunteer or local militia man. The cost of this last was something less than 4l. He looked upon it that 400,000 rank and file in addition to the regular army and militia would do a great deal, but that was not the only means of increased defence that we possessed. There was the provisional increase of 50,000, which would give us an army of 650,000 men, subject only to the reduction on the formation of a peace establishment, which reduction would never amount to 50,000. Always keeping up that amount of regular and subsidiary force, it would be impossible for the enemy to bring against us any army capable of making an impression; and with the trained population which this measure and the volunteer system would necessarily generate, we should have such means of supplying the waste of men, that the largest force the enemy could bring must perish in the un- equal conflict. The amount of force alluded to, would be amply sufficient, and to train more would be only idle waste. An armed peasantry, though useful in other countries peculiarly circumstanced, could be of no use in this. It would be impossible to incorporate them with the regiments, if invasion should arise. Too extensive a training would be a useless and unprofitable burthen, tending to break the backs of the people, if the expression might be used. Having a regimented force of 400,000, in addition to a regular army of 200,000, which might; if occasion required, be increased to 250,000, parliament might rest content, and trust that the empire was secure. He should now move for leave to bring in the bill. He was glad gentlemen would have the interval of the recess to consider the provisions of it; and in order to give them the greatest possible facility, he should move that the bill be printed. When they should re-assemble, and resume the consideration of this subject, he would receive with attention every suggestion gentlemen should offer, and endeavour as much as possible to profit by them. He moved for leave to bring in a bill to make better provision for the internal defence of the kingdom.

expressed his approbation of the principal features of the plan which the noble lord had just submitted to the house. For himself, he had long been impressed with the necessity of placing the country in that state of military habits which would enable us to look without fear on any danger with which it might be threatened. The plan of a local and permanent militia, he considered as peculiarly suited to the genius of our constitution, and the manners of the people. In the present convulsed and disorganised state of Europe, no one could foresee what might happen. If ever there was a time when the country had occasion for a full array of the whole of its military population it was the present. He hoped at last we were come to the time when the house would lay down some solid, well-digested, and permanent plan of internal defence, and that they should hear no more of annual motions on this important subject. The plan of the noble lord he understood to be composed, first of the regular army, maintained at its present establishment; next, of a numerous local militia; and lastly, of an intermediate force, the whole of which should be perfectly adequate to the defence of G. Britain and Ireland, The only objection of any moment which he had to offer to this was, that lie would prefer, instead of having what the noble lord called an irregular militia, a complete amalgamation and combination of all the forces of that description. This part of the plan would be brought into practice with great advantage at the end of the war, at which time, with hardly any inconvenience, it might be moulded into a permanent system. To render the plan more perfect, he thought it adviseable, that besides the local militia, we should have a body of troops not so numerous as the militia, but applicable to the defence of every part of the empire, serving as well in Ireland as in England. These, he would take the liberty of suggesting, should amount to 35,000 men, composing a species of reserve for the army, to be trained and commanded by regular officers. On military subjects we could not have better authority than that power which had vanquished the greater part of the continent of Europe. The French had carried the Roman military system to a degree of perfection which the inventors of it never could have foreseen it would have reached. They had distinguished their national guards into sedentary and moveable. He thought this principle could be advantageously applied to the constitution of our militia. There would, however, be so many opportunities of discussing the measure in all its details, that he would not, for the present, trespass any longer upon the indulgence of the house.

rose to offer a few remarks upon the plan of the noble lord, but he could not help previously making one observation upon what had just fallen from the right hon. gent. who spoke last. The right hon. gent. had expressed a hope, that the time was now arrived in which a permanent system would be adopted for the defence of the country. Why this hope should be entertained by the right hon. gent. now, rather than at any former time, he was at a loss to conceive, and it appeared to him rather curious that such a hope should be entertained by those who were now breaking up the system already established. It was as absurd as a call for unanimity would be at the very moment when matter of contention and dispute was brought forward. The question was, what it was upon which they were to settle? The right hon. gent. certainly could not expect, that he should agree to a system which went to subvert another which he wished to see permanent. As to the grand plan of the noble lord, this was not the proper time for discussing it. He called it a grand plan, because grand it certainly was, when he considered the persons from whom it came, the mighty preparations which had been made for its introduction, that it was full of complexity and involution, of ingenious and intricate machinery, of springs of various powers, and of wheels within wheels, or, to borrow an expression from the Critic, that it was replete with business, incident, and bustle, and likely to keep the reader in suspense to the very last scene of the last act. Without, however, at present, entering into the details of the measure, which certainly did not conform to the rule, 'quod potest fieri per pauciora, non debet fieri per plura,' he would merely say a few words upon it in relation to the object which it was meant to accomplish. In all plans of this sort there was a unity of purpose, and that which the present had in view was to promote the supply of the regular army, and to guard against a danger peculiar to the days in which we live,—the defence of the country against the invasion of a foreign enemy. The difficulty of accomplishing the first part of this object, he contended had been very much increased by the noble lord, because the measures which had been adopted for the purpose of attaining it, and which bad fair for attaining the purpose for which they had been adopted, had been completely frustrated in their operation by the noble lord. The noble lord had set out with defeating the measure of inlisting men for a limited period, and now he was about to introduce a bill for the purpose of destroying the Training act. The noble lord had talked in his speech as if he (Mr. W.) had placed great virtue in the Training act; but he would tell the noble lord, that he never had expected much from it in the way of training, though he certainly had expected a good deal from it in the way of enrolment. If the object of the noble lord was to train a certain number of men for the military service, a question immediately arose, how much training he would purchase by a sacrifice of convenience, for in the same proportion as he added to the one he necessarily took from the other. All, then, he could accuse him of was, of having taken the major compromise between the two; and if that was the case, it was not too late to correct the error into which he had fallen. Instead of this, however (said Mr. Windham), in order to deliver you from this raw head and bloody bones, for such he seems to consider the Training act, he grafts upon it powers of greater severity, and is about to do now what would have been done under it only in the last extremity. If the noble lord imagined that his plan could be carried into execution without much inconvenience, considerable expence, and great prejudice to the morals of those who were to be embodied under its provisions, he was very much mistaken. And if he did not choose to defer to his opinion upon the subject, he requested that he would consult any serious judicious magistrate; who would not only confirm what he had now stated as the probable effect of the present measure, but would likewise tell him, that the evil resulting to the morals of the volunteers by withdrawing them from their homes and assembling them in large towns, was a strong objection to their being called out on permanent duty. The noble lord had also stated his conviction, that the volunteers would have consented to all the regulations with which he meant to accompany his present measure, if those regulations had been proposed to them when they first offered their services to the public; and this conviction he founded upon the zeal and alacrity which they displayed in the performance of that duty which they had voluntarily imposed upon themselves. But, it surely might have occurred to the noble lord, that there was a wide difference between performing a voluntary and a compulsory engagement. He would advise the noble lord at all events to adhere at least to the spirit of the Training act, and to give them more training, if he thought that to be necessary. But, the great advantage which the noble lord seemed to imagine the present measure possessed over the other was, that by the present measure he would have regimented men, whereas, by the other, they would not be regimented. The difference as to qualifying them for actual service, was really not worth talking about. In neither case could the men be at all fit for acting in conceit with the regular army, and with a view to their being drafted into the army as recruits, they would learn so much of the military exercise under the Training act, such as knowing their right hand from their left, how to handle a musket, and to fire with powder and ball, as to enable them to become effective soldiers in as short a time as they would do under the system of the noble lord.. The noble lord had talked a great deal of the volunteer force, and he (Mr. W.) was disposed to give them every degree of credit for the purity of their motives, for zeal and good intentions; but it was quite childish to consider these, corps as fit to act along with the regular force. Would an officer, he asked, employ one of these corps to cover his flank, or to maintain an important post? It might be as well contended that a frigate might be placed in the same line of battle with a first rate. The right hon. gent. vindicated his military system from the reflections thrown upon it by the noble lord, contending that it had procured more men to the army, during the time that it was in force, than the old system of recruiting, and that the advantages of which it was productive would have been more and more felt every year, if its operation had not been disturbed. The great motive for all the freaks and whims and complicated machinery, of which they had now a sample before them, he declared to be a taste, an appetite, a passion, a rage, for getting soldiers for life. This was the great principle which set the machine in motion; but there was another on which its movements in no small degree depended, viz. that of opening a source of patronage and influence. There was not a single job connected with the system which he introduced, from beginning to end. It had no other object but the good of the people, and providing for old soldiers, who could make no return to those who watched over their interests. But here they were to have a regimented force; where there were regiments, there must be officers, and the noble lord was not ignorant that every grant of this kind was matter of favour. In this way, he declared the volunteer establishment to be the greatest source of favouritism and of enmity ever possessed by a minister. By way of sample, he stated the following circumstances: under the former administration 200 officers, who had for the most part been in the army, were employed on the recruiting service; when the present ministers came into power, they removed these officers, and appointed 2000 volunteer Serjeants in their room. One would naturally suppose that the number of recruits would have been increased, in consequence of this arrangement, in the ratio of ten to one. The fact was, however, that the 200 officers had procured 2000 recruits, whereas only 600 had been procured by the 2000 volunteer Serjeants. It was true that the officers had 40l. whereas the Serjeants had only 10l. each; but the officers were obliged to give security to return the money if they did not bring recruits, whereas the Serjeants were under no such obligation. The right hon. gent. concluded with begging that gentlemen would put to themselves two questions relative to the present measure; the first was, what necessity there was for it? the second, whether it might not be traced to the motive of wishing to bring back the old system of having soldiers for life?

in explanation, denied that he had abandoned the right hon. gent.'s training system. All he wished was, not to carry it to greater lengths than what was necessary. With respect to the recruiting officers from the army alluded to by the right hon. gent. they were 400 in number when he came into office, and were rapidly increasing. A Serjeant was attached to each, so that the expence to the country was considerable. It had, therefore, been determined by his majesty's government, that those among them who had not evinced any exertion, should be dismissed. The volunteer Serjeants had only commissions given them to enlist, but no sum, unless the men were raised. Certainly, the inspecting field officers were allowed to make advances to those Serjeants, and the only reason why no bond of security was given by them on those advances, was the large duties on such bonds.

contended, that the time for making a radical reformation in an army was peace and not war; and that the army in this country, if a proper disposition were made of it, would be amply sufficient, without the imposition of any additional burden upon the people, by ballot or otherwise, to repel whatever enemy might venture to attack us. The pathetic manner in which the right hon. gent. had so repeatedly deplored the subversion of his military system, reminded him of the lamentation of Rachel over her children, who, according to the Scriptures, 'would not be comforted.' Among other regulations which he thought it would be adviseable to adopt in the present juncture, he strenuously recommended the formation of camps for the exercise of our army, both regulars and militia. He was convinced also, that if the volunteers were united for a time to regular troops for the purpose of sharing in their discipline, and of being instructed by their example, it would have an excellent effect, by awakening their dormant spirit, and by inspiring the whole of our military force with the greatest enthusiasm and patriotism.—Leave was then given to bring in bill.

after narrating the proceedings of both houses, relative to the former bills on this subject, stated, that as the house seemed to be of opinion generally, that the condition of the Curates of this country was such as required amelioration, he should now move for leave to bring in a Bill for that purpose. He should propose that, in most cases, those gentlemen should have a salary equal to one-fifth of that of the beneficed clergyman; but that, in no case, it should exceed 250l. per annum. With respect to the apportionment of those salaries to curates which were to be below that maximum, he confessed, that he had rather that the mandate should have been peremptory on the bishops, than that they should have an option; but he found, upon inquiry, that the majority of the most weighty opinions was in favour of the proposition for giving a discretionary power to the bishops, fie had therefore conceded to the weight of those opinions, and given such a discretion in the bill. If the measure should meet the approbation of his right hon. friend (Mr. Foster), he believed a similar bill would be brought in for Ireland. In the present bill, he had to inform the house that he had also made a provision similar to that which had been lately made by a right hon. friend of his, namely, a provision for the residence of the clergy. He concluded with moving, "That leave be given to bring in a bill for making more effectual provision for the maintenance of Stipendiary Curates, and for their residence on their cures."

reprobated in strong terms the principle and real object of this bill, the most unconstitutional that was ever submitted to the consideration of parliament. He was astonished that the right hon. mover should think of persevering in such a measure, after being thrice defeated in his attempt at carrying it into a law. It was not with the amelioration which it proposed in the condition of the subordinate clergy, nor with the alledged purpose of enforcing the residence of clergymen in their respective parishes, that he had any inclination to find fault. His hostility was directed against the monstrous and unconstitutional power which it gave to the bishops over the rectors in their respective dioceses, a power which subjected the property of every rector to be invaded or mulcted, without any proof of improper conduct, merely at the caprice or whim of his bishop. The noble lord concluded by observing, that he feared the right hon. mover was in this measure the organ of a secret influence behind the altar, as formidable and as designing as that which was now ascertained to exist behind the throne. Its object was to introduce into the church establishment a system of rigorous puritanism, the unfailing source of unconquerable bigotry and rancorous persecution.

defended the bill, as calculated to produce two desirable effects, namely, an increase of comfort, to the active curate, and the advantage of a resident, clergyman to the parish.

coincided with his noble friend, and declared his determination to oppose the bill in every stage. He designated it, if operative, as an act of plunder on the property of the rector, and if inefficient, one carried under false pretences through the legislature.

thought, injustice, that a liberal compensation should be made to the curate, proportioned to the duties performed, and to the receipts of the living. Where they amounted to 500l. per annum, he thought 100l. a year but a fair allowance.

considered the bill as an innovation, and said he would take another opportunity of stating his objections fully on this subject.

replied to the objections advanced against the measure, and enforced the necessity of going into a committee, when the opposers of the bill would have an opportunity of submitting their various amendments and modifications.—After some brief observations from Mr. Tierney and Mr. Windham, leave was granted to bring in the Bill, under an implied undertaking that its principle was to be fully discussed on the committal of it.