said it was not his wish to oppose the increase of salary intended to the judges; but he gave notice that he should, in the progress of the bill, take the liberty of suggesting to the house some propositions on the subject, and particularly for preventing the sale of the office of clerk of assize, and also for preventing the Welsh Judges from holding other places of profit under the crown, and from occupying seats in parliament, both of which he considered as incompatible with the independent and impartial administration of justice, as well as with the principle upon which the judges of England held their appointments. There was another point to which also he should take occasion to advert; namely, the great grievance under which the remote parts of the kingdom, and particularly the county of York, laboured under from the delay of justice, as being only visited by the judges of assize once in a year, and that only for a week; a circumstance extremely oppressive, not only to suitors in that great county, but to all persons there awaiting the course of justice, civil or criminal.

said, that the judges, on going a circuit, certainly allotted by anticipation the time they should remain at the different towns on their respective circuits, according to their calculation of the time the business to be done at each would probably occupy; sometimes certainly the business occupied more time than they expected, and, rendered it impracticable to accomplish the whole, consistently with their arrangements made for other places; this, however, seldom happened; and where it was conceived the business would occupy more than the ordinary time, two judges went to York instead of one, whereby double the business was disposed of within the same period. It would be for the wisdom of parliament to make such arrangements on this head as might seem necessary hereafter; but he hoped the house would not clog the present bill by such regulations.

coincided in the necessity of rendering all the judges equally independent of the crown with those of England, and therefore agreed in the propriety of precluding them from seats in parliament, as well as from other lucrative offices under the crown, in order that they might not only be removed from the influence of the crown in that house, but even from the suspicion of it; and he thought that a clause for this purpose, as well as for preventing the sale of the office of clerk of assize, ought to be inserted in the bill.

deprecated the idea of precluding the Welch judges from seats in that house, under any idea of their dependence on the crown, their places being for life. By such an exclusion, the house would be deprived of a valuable portion of talents: and he begged leave to instance the speech of one of those judges upon a late important occasion (that of Mr. Burton, in the case of the duke of York) as one of the most lucid and eloquent ever uttered within the walls of parliament. Leave was given to bring in a Bill pursuant to the Resolutions.

moved the third reading of the Gas Light bill, but at the same time prayed the indulgence of the house in allowing him to propose five new clauses; and that the house would take the debate upon the question that the bill do pass. He read the clauses in his place.

saw no necessity in the present case to depart from the usual mode of proceeding; and hoped the house would not encourage a custom which had prevailed of late; namely, that of keeping back the principal clauses of private bills until the very last stage, and there proposing them by surprize upon the house.

delared himself decidedly averse to this bill; first, upon the general principle of granting chartered monopolies to any great body of men, to the preclusion of all competition. He would admit there might be some exceptions, in cases where great advantages to the public must manifestly arise, and where the fortunes of a few individuals must be inadequate to the accomplishment; in the case for instance of a great aqueduct, for the supply of a city, such as the New River, or of a canal, as the West India Docks, or such great undertaking, where the public advantage was clear, and the profits within some calculation. But upon such an undertaking as the present, where, however ingenious the plan, the practicability was problematical, and no estimation produced to prove it capable of adoption to any thing like the extent proposed, he was against the sanction of parliament being given to the measure, for the purpose of procuring immense subscriptions to an undertaking, which, on the face of the plan, seemed unmanageable by any act of directors; for it appeared that in the parish of St. James's alone, six different establishments would be required to furnish the light, and that the expence of lighting by Gas would cost 550l. a year more than by oil. What, then, must the number of establishments be for all London, and where was the advantage to the public, supposing the plan practicable? It might turn out ultimately a second South Sea bubble. He could not at all events, agree to autho- rize the company to receive subscriptions to an amount which would enable them to monopolize oil, coal, and the oilier materials which afforded the public an alternative, in order to drive them into the adoption of this scheme, the failure of which would entail disgrace upon the nation. He concluded by moving, that the bill, instead of now, be read the third time this day three, months. The bill was also opposed by sir James Hill, Mr. Thompson, of Hull, Mr. Hall, and Mr. Babington.

opposed the bill. It was not necessary, he observed, to re sort to charters to procure capital. He would not encourage these gambling projects, by which men were to be princes or beggars, in a moment. He could not avoid directing the attention of the house to the extravagant expectations that were held out in a pamphlet recommending this plan. Among other impudent impositions, it was endeavoured to be shewn, that it would produce, in the course of a short time, no less than 10,201,741l. 13s. 2d. in the way of taxes. In the same statement, the annual profits, after a certain period, were calculated at two-hundred and ninety-nine millions. He considered it as one of the greatest bubbles that had ever been imposed on public credulity. He could compare it to nothing so well as the Ayr Bank, the loss by which was immense to the public, and had involved in difficulties, for years, most of the great landed proprietors of Scotland. The house having divided, the amendment was carried by a majority of 52 to 38. The bill was consequently lost.

objected to the nature of the punishment inflicted by the bill upon such persons as were concerned in unlicensed stills. For the first offence, corporal punishment was inflicted; for the second, transportation. He did not approve of such severity, especially as the system now acted on was so defective as to give encouragement to the offence. He would therefore move, That the clause inflicting such punishment should be omitted.

disapproved of the entire system of laws that regulated the distilleries in Ireland. He was strengthened in his opinion, not only by the Irish commissioners of inquiry, but by a trial of the present system for many years. He contended, that at no period were the illitit distilleries carried on to a greater extent than the last two years, which must alone be attributed to the present regulations. Though the right hon. gent. (Mr. Foster) would not at present agree to a change in the system, he was happy to hear him say even so much as that next session he would meet an inquiry on the subject. He (Mr. Bernard) pledged himself to bring it forward at an early period, and hoped to convince the house that a change of the system would be of considerable advantage to both countries, by encouraging agriculture, and increasing the revenue.

said, that he had never yet heard of corporal punishment being inflicted for a fiscal offence; such a punishment, in such a case, was unknown to the constitution. Besides, the nature of the corporal punishment was not ascertained; whether it was to be flogging or hanging they did not know. Great care, he admitted, should be taken of the revenue; but not by subverting the principles of the British constitution.

rose and observed, that it was his anxious wish to impress upon the committee the propriety of attending to the principles of economy in every department of the public expenditure. The necessity, indeed, of such attention must he thought be obvious to every man who took the trouble of looking into the subject, and felt any solicitude for the interests of the country. The amount of our annual expenditure, and of our national debt, was enormous, while the declining produce of our revenue was notorious. According to the papers on the table, the produce of our permanent taxes was only 30,190,178l. which, compared with the interests of our debt 31,3.50,000l. left a deficit of above one million. How then, in the event of peace was this deficit to be supplied and our establishment to be defined, without permanently pledging the war taxes? If peace were to be concluded to-morrow, it would be impossible to make such a reduction in our establishment as to place us in any thing like the situation in which we stood before, either with regard to expence or revenue. The consequence would be, that they would be compelled to have recourse to the Income and other war taxes, and reduced to the absolute necessity of making them a perpetual burthen upon the country. The continuance of the War-taxes in the event of peace, was a thing scarcely to be endured, even in idea; and yet he really was at a loss to divine to what other fund the country was to look for support in supplying the deficiencies of a declining revenue. He begged the committee to consider this point, upon which he was induced to dwell, with a view to urge more strongly the necessity of paying the utmost possible attention to every thing connected with economy. It was quite clear that every practicable arrangement should be made for that purpose, and with that impression upon Ins mind, he regretted much to observe that such a tardy disposition to promote the objects recommended by the Committee of Finance should have been manifested by those, who had the power of giving effect to the recommendations of that Committee. He had therefore felt it his duty to bring this business forward. Since he had given notice of it the right hon the Chancellor of the Exchequer had thought proper to propose a set of Resolutions in lieu of those which he had the honour of submitting to the house. Being anxious only for the object which his Resolutions had in view, he was not of course tenacious of terms or forms, and therefore he would interweave with his first Resolution, upon proposing which the discussion might arise, some of the words suggested by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Upon the adoption of these words he was the more determined, because in reviewing his own Resolution, he saw that it contained rather a sort of apology, for calling the attention of the house to a consideration of the principles of economy, than a direct assertion of the expediency of economising the public Expenditure in every possible case. The hon. member then proposed his first Resolution, which declared in substance, that it was peculiarly necessary in the present circumstances of the country, to attend closely to the principles of economy, and to make every practicable arrangement for the purpose of limiting the public expenditure. This Resolution being put from the Chair,

rose, to correct some mis-statements with respect to the finances of the country into which the hon. gent. had fallen. He had stated that the amount of the Permanent Taxes was not equal to the discharge of the interest of the public debt. This was not the case. On the contrary, last year they had voted a surplus of between four and five million, out of the Consolidated Fund, independant of the other heavy charges to which that fund was liable.—The committee must recollect, that there had been voted for the year the sum of 3,500,000l. as the surplus of the Consolidated Fund, together with 800,000l. which remained unappropriated from the produce of that fund in the preceding year. Of course, it was quite a mistaken idea, that the permanent taxes were insufficient to defray the interest of the public debt. The hon. gent, had fallen into this mistake from his confounding the produce of the Permanent Taxes, and the Consolidated Funds.—The difference between the permanent charges, and the produce of the permanent taxes, was what was usually voted as the surplus of the consolidated fund, being an excess of produce above the charges. He need not, therefore, inform the Committee, that not only the interest of the public debt, and other permanent eharges were defrayed out of the permanent taxes, but many other items of expenditure connected with the various branches of the public service were charged upon the surplus of the consolidated fund. The permanent public charge was thirty-three millions. The supply to defray that charge amounted to thirty-seven millions. This statement could admit of no dispute, as it was proved by the returns on their table, and therefore it was impossible for the hon. gent. to say that the permanent taxes fell short of the annual expenditure. He did not deny that the produce of the revenue this year fell short of that of last year by about 300,000l. but this was owing to the peculiar circumstances of the war; some falling, too, was to be expected this year, when compared with a year of great abundance, and could not possibly be such a cause of despondency as the hon. gent.'s statements went to make it. Mr. Huskisson then went into a detail of his financial operations of last year in mortgaging one million of the duties on malt and sugar to pay off Exchequer bills; instead of allowing it to go as usual to the consolidated fund. By this means there was an apparent defalcation in the present year to that amount, which did not exist in reality, as would be found in the re- ceipt of the revenue for the year 1810. With regard to the Convoy duty, that must necessarily cease on the re-establishment of peace; but it did not follow that a considerable part of what was now raised under the head of Convoy duty might not then be continued under the denomination of Customs. There was no reason, then, for the despondency manifested by the hon. gentlemen, but this he did not state in opposition to the proposition that economy was desirable; while the burdens continued to be so great as they were, in his opinion, the house required no other incitement to alleviate them by every means in their power.

, in explanation, stated, that he quoted from the returns laid before the house as to the funds to be relied upon in the event of peace. There was at least one part of the war taxes, namely, the Convoy duty, which must inevitably cease.

considered that a fallacy had run through the whole of the statement made by the hon. gent. (Mr. Huskisson) as in his calculations he had not stated the produce of new taxes laid on in 1808 to the amount of 1,700,000l. The noble lord was going on to point out this supposed inaccuracy, when

rose and corrected his misconception of the matter. He shewed, that what the noble lord intended to consider as new taxes, were only a new arrangement of the assessed taxes already in existence.

said, he did not expect the debate would have taken the turn which it appeared to have done. He thought, however, his hon. friend who brought forward these Resolutions, had acted very right in drawing the attention of the house to economy. As, however, the hon. gent. who had just sat down had gone into figures on the occasion, he would beg leave to state a few similar facts from a paper he happened accidentally to have in his pocket, but which he never had an idea till that moment of mentioning on the present occasion. He calculated that, upon the arrival of peace, if it were to take place to-morrow, the amount of the public expenditure for the support of the army, navy, and miscellaneous charges, would, at least, be equal to 48 millions, to which add the interest upon exchequer bills, which would make it exceed 49 millions, and he would ask, how was this sum to be provided? The whole of the revenue, applicable to a peace establishment, he estimated at about 38,500,000l., and the deficit must, of course, be supplied either by new taxes, or by loans. According to his estimate the deficit would exceed 11 millions, but even according to the statement of his hon. friend, it would amount to more than 8 millions. This deficit would be to be met either by continuing the war taxes, or by a loan, or by raising new taxes; unless recourse were had to the Property Tax. Even suppose the other war taxes to be made perpetual, there must be a deficit of many millions, which must, if peace were to take place to-morrow, be provided for; and we must either make the property-tax perpetual, to the amount of live per cent, on income, or else have recourse to a loan. This statement he made with a view to demonstrate the propriety of attending to the principle of his hon. friend's Resolution.

thought that the discussion was taking a turn entirely foreign from the subject of the Third Report upon Offices, and therefore suggested the propriety of proceeding to the matter in question. There would be no end to the debate, were the finances of the country to be made the subject, when the question was simply as to the necessity of economy.

coincided in opinion with the noble lord, vet thought it but fair to say that his hon. friend (Mr. Huskisson) had not introduced the subject originally, but had only risen to correct the misstatements which had been made on the other side. As the hon. gent. (Mr. Martin) had declared his preference for his (Mr. Perceval's) first Resolution in opposition to his own, he could wish that instead of putting the committee to the necessity of previously negativing that Reselution, he would withdraw it, and suffer the other to be put in its stead. With respect to what the hon. gent, had said about comparing and contrasting the two strings of Resolutions seriatim, he could scarcely suppose that necessary, as his Resolutions were merely a new arrangement of those of the hon. gent.

withdrew his first Resolution, and that proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was put from the chair and agreed to. The following was the Resolution: "That the utmost attention to economy in all the branches of Public Expenditure which is consistent with the interests of the Public Service, is at all times the duty of this House."

requested the attention of the committee to some observations he had to submit to their consideration. Great pains, he said, had lately been taken out of doors to make it be believed that no attention had hitherto been paid to the retrenchment of the expenditure of the public money. He begged, however, to shew that the contrary was the case.

was at a loss how to reconcile the Report which he held in his hand with the high panegyric which the right hon. gentleman had thought proper to pronounce upon his deceased friend. The right hon. gent. had gone so far back as the year 1713, when he came to treat of Pensions. If he had looked at later periods, he would have found that they had increased very much since the beginning of the present reign. From the Report under consideration it appeared, that the amount of the Pension List had been most enormously increased by Mr. Pitt. But this was a part of the case which the right hon. gent. had felt it convenient to overlook, although the subject of pensions was the first topic that offered itself in the Report. There was also a strong fact which the right hon. gent. happened to forget, but he would call it to his recollection. The right hon. gent. would, perhaps, remember when Mr. Pitt, and himself, induced that house to acquiesce in the grant of 9,000l. a year to the duke of Gloucester, from the public purse, upon the allegation that the produce of the 4½per cent, duties, upon which that sum had been previously charged, was inadequate to payit. By this grant the public lost 105,000l., yet soon after it was made, the "inadequate fund" was found a resource sufficient to provide for several of Mr. Pitt's friends and relations. Indeed, but a short time afterwards pensions were charged upon it of 1,500l. a year for Mr. Long; 1,200l. a year for Mr. Huskisson; of 6 or 700l. a year to each of Mr. Pitt's nieces, together with an allowance to lady Chatham; and no less than 1,500l. a year to lady Grenville. With this fact, and several others of a similar nature in his recollection, he could not subscribe to the justice of the right hon. gent.'s panegyric upon Mr. Pitt's solicitude to curtail the public, expenditure, and to sacrifice to that object either personal connection or ministerial influence.

vindicated the conduct of his right hon. friend in the transaction alluded to, and averred that the 4½ per cent, duties were inadequate to furnish the allowance granted to the duke of Gloucester at the time the proposition complained of by the hon. gent. was brought before the house. He proved that in the year 1720, independent of the relative value of money, the Pension List was greater than at this moment. He also corrected his statements with respect to the 4½ per cent. fund, and shewed the nature of its application, in paying off 172,000l. of debt, after it was released from the payment of the duke of Gloucester's annuity. As to the provision which his right hon. friend had thought proper to make for his relations, he was sure that the country would justify that, when they considered the merit of a life devoted to their service, and the circumstances under which he died.

thought the poverty in which Mr. Pitt died was very much to his credit; he was a man who practised virtue most, and made the least display of it; he indeed "Did good by stealth, and blush'd to find it fame."

thought the crown had no title to the revenue arising from the 4½ per cent. The question was, what had the practice been? 20,000l. had been advanced in aid of the Civil List, which was the first sum ever thus appropriated, in 1791. He wished to know if any law could be pointed out to his notice that he might have overlooked, authorising the crown to give pensions out of that fund. He condemned the giving political pensions from this fund, which ought to be only appropriated to the salaries of government.

would by no means admit this principle; it would be found that in the reign of George I. pensions had been given from this 4½ per cent. fund, to many persons, and among the rest to lord Hobart, governor of Jersey. In the reign of George II. it was also applied to such purposes, as from 70 to 80,000l. had been drawn from it in aid of the Civil List, and in the year 1762, a pension of 3,000l. per annum was given to the late lord Chatham. No Attorney or Solicitor General, or Lord Chancellor, since that time, could be named who had not been a party in such grants. It did not come within the spirit of Burke's Act; for Mr. Burke himself expressly stated, in one of his pamphlets, that he had a view only to the Civil List in his regulations, and that he knew of the 4½ per cent. fund, but thought it best to leave that as a reward for merit. The hon. gent. had alluded to the annuity granted to the duke of Gloucester in 1786. What did parliament do on that occasion? Did they say such a grant was contrary to Mr. Burke's act? No, it had ever been admitted that that fund was a part of the hereditary revenue, and consequently at the disposal of the crown. The attention of every Committee of Finance was turned to the subject, and they all sanctioned the legality of this application.

said, it was stated as a part of the public revenue.

was of opinion it was part of the customs.

stated, that lord Grenville and lord Harrowby (then Mr. Ryder) had, in the Report of a Finance Committee, reported the 4½ per cent. funds as public money.

said, that he could not see, even admitting for a moment the truth of the statement, how it bore upon the question.

said, that as his hon. friend had introduced this subject before the house, he hoped some gentleman for Ireland would institute a similar exposition with respect to that country, for he had a statement to make to the committee with regard to the financial arrangements of Ireland, at one time, that would, he apprehended, astonish gentlemen who heard him, and incline them to think that such an exposition would not be unnecessary. In the administration of a noble lord who was now a cabinet minister, he meant the Lord Privy Seal (lord Westmoreland), it was enacted by parliament, that until the Pension List establishment for Ireland should be reduced to 80,000l. the grants of pensions should not in anyone year for each year exceed 1,200l. The act to this effect passed in the latter part of the month of July, in the year 1793, but was not to take effect till the 2.5th of March, 1794. Now, the Committee would scarcely believe, that in the interval of only seven months the enormous sum of 13,000l. had been added to the amount of pensions upon the Irish establishment in the administration of that noble lord, so that it appeared from the Returns made to that house, a copy of which he held in his hand, that, a leading member of the present cabinet had, when Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, taken advantage of the interval between the passing of a law and the time of its taking effect, to violate the spirit of that very enactment [Hear! hear!]: that so far from any attempt to reduce the Pension List; so far from confining the grants for any one year within 1,200l. he had actually within seven months imposed upon the establishment the enormous burthen of 13,000l. and thus disposed of the amount of ten years pensions within the short period of seven months. The gross amount was 13,500l., but from this he excluded lord F. Campbell's pension, and that to the Burgh family, leaving a sum amounting to 13,000l. and it would further appear from the accounts, that in the course of five years, from 1790 to 1795, the sum of 39,000l. a year was added to the public burdens in that country with regard to pensions. The time was now fast approaching when, by deaths, it was expected that the Pension List would be brought within the due limits; but whether that expectation would prove well founded or not, he had no hesitation in saying, that it was his intention, early in the ensuing sessions, to call upon parliament to continue the limitation of the grant of pensions to 1,200l. annually, until the establishment should be reduced to 30,000l. or at most to 40,000l. He stated farther that the 1,200l. in one year was disposed of between three members of that house, late or present.

denied that in the vice-royalty alluded to so much money had been granted in pensions. Deducting the pensions to the Burgh family and to lord Frederick Campbell, instead of 13,000l. only 4,000l. would appear to have been given.

repeated his assertion, which was verified by the returns of the house of commons, and even ex- pressly deducting the pensions now mentioned, 13,000l. annually would be found to have been granted.

declared it was not his intention to enter into the former details of the debate. He was very ready to confess that Mr. Pitt had laid many perspicuous financial statements before the house, and believed it to be his object, at one period, to attain the utmost perfection he could in the science of finance. Whether he deviated from that determination since the year 1793, it was for the house to judge. He certainly failed in some of his calculations, and as an instance the committee might refer to his prophecy in the year to which he alluded, that we should have a fifteen years peace. While he paid every tribute to the disinterestedness of his private life, and praised the poverty in which he died, still he must say that the war had been carried on with the utmost prodigality. In the barrack department alone the extravagance was amazing. Notwithstanding all that had been said by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose) to prove that every attention had been paid to economy, he still thought, that there were grounds for complaints of the most serious nature, when the great waste of the country's resources was considered which had been discovered in every branch of the war department. He thought it something extraordinary, that it should be said the hon. gent. received that pension still, which it was understood was to be given up by a person holding a situation of more than 2000l. a year. He did not know that he received more, but he supposed that at least his income amounted to that sum, and did not doubt but the hon. gent. would explain the matter in the most satisfactory manner. He did not intend to enter into the disputed question, as to the 4½ per cent. fund, but yet he thought both the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Long) and Mr. Burke himself most incompetent judges upon the subject, because they were themselves renters from that very fund. The corruptions of former times had been very much dwelt upon in contradistinction to the purity of the present; and much allusion had been made to the degradation of that house, at an early period, when bribery was common, and doles of the public money were dealt out to the members of that house by the government. Now, he had no doubt, even in those corrupt days, when reform and retrenchment were proposed, that a loud outcry was raised on the occasion, and the integrity of contractors, &c. highly vaunted. Much it was said, had been corrected since; but much, he contended, had been left behind to correct; many branches of expenditure to be retrenched, and much extravagance to be curtailed. Now, because some men were pure, it was not necessarily to be inferred that all were so, and though he was of course inclined to pay the highest compliment to the patriotic forbearance of the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Rose), still he was not sure that every one else deserved the same eulogium. The right hon. gent. had touched, indeed, but slightly, on the subject of the Barrack Board, that great source of public extravagance, and still less on the abuses of the Transport Board, where such vast sums of money were so unnecessarily squandered. [Mr. W. Pole said across the table, he did not believe it.] The hon. gent. was welcome not to believe it if he chose, but he (Mr. Whit-bread) believed it, and thought it was a question even whether that board ought to be allowed to exist at all or not. Some time since a noble lord, member for Westminster, whose gallant and patriotic achievements were the theme of every man's panegyric, (lord Cochrane), was of opinion, that the influence of the crown in that house was greater than it ought to be, and moved for a return of all the members holding offices, sinecures, or pensions under government. That motion was afterwards made more general, and the returns to it referred to a committee, the Third Report of which committee was then before them. The influence of the crown he still thought greater than it ought to be in that house. He certainly did not mean to say that no officer of the Crown should sit in that house, but he thought the error too much on the other side. There were for instance the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the other ministers of state, who might have seats in parliament; but it was not necessary for all the lords of the treasury, who, indeed, were generally silent in the house. Secretaries of the treasury may also have a seat in the house. Of one of these gentlemen he did not mean to speak otherwise than in panegyric, for his close and accurate habits of business, but the other was absolutely a mute, of whom they heard nothing, but saw a great deal. The Lords of the Admiralty, perhaps, also ought to be excluded, but to the liveliness of one of them, he must pay his tribute. One person perhaps connected with the board of controul was requisite in the house. Of its President he could not speak, for he was at present so full of his Irish affairs, that in fact the office was vacant. Persons holding that office were understood to act gratuitously on their first appointment, but that idea was soon done away, and lord Melville received much in the shape of salary before he was created Treasurer of the Navy, and then created two new offices for the education of young statesmen under him. It was not exactly conformable to Mr. Pitt's practise, for young men who were but a few years in office to take pensions for life. He did not wish to speak of living persons, but he must be excused for the allusion, as so many were mentioned in the Report. He did not see the propriety of giving persons pensions for life after being in office two or three years. Men of talent would be found to fill the principal offices of the state, even though they were not thus pensioned off. Mr. Pitt, whom the gentlemen opposite professed to make their model, did not act so. He did not seek some snug thing for himself as soon as he got into power. He (Mr. Whitbread) thought the influence of the crown in that house ought to be less than it was, and would therefore, in order to bring the question fairly before the committee, more as an amendment on the Resolution, that the words "And as a further limitation, be it provided, that no person shall hold a seat in this house having a sinecure or other private place of emolument under I the crown," should be added. He wished to say a word or two on those very respectable members, the Welsh Judges. Though he thought them less exceptionable than others, yet there was a something in their sitting there which offended so far against the principle he wished to establish, that he would submit it to the house, whether or not they ought still to be considered as eligible to hold seats in parliament.

considered this amendment of the hon. gent. as founded upon a most aristocratic principle; it would throw the offices of the crown into the hands of those alone who could, from their property, very well dispense with their salaries. He opposed to the theory of the hon. gent. the constant practice of that house, and con- tended that at all periods it proved the best bulwark of the liberties of the people, which plainly proved the fallacy of the argument that went to deny that it could be unduly influenced while officers of the crown had seats in parliament; for officers of the crown had always sat in it. The exclusion of magistrates of all descriptions, in his opinion, might be as well demanded as that of the Welsh Judges; for they never exercised their judicial functions except on circuit. He declared it his intention to give his utmost opposition to the amendment.

could not think the true interests of the country were consulted in pensioning off every subordinate officer of government after serving the public two or three years.

was of opinion that the Resolution of his hon. friend was most important in itself, and of the greatest moment to the constitution of the country. For his own part, he was inclined to the Amendment of his hon. friend, and if it was to be pushed to a division, should vote for it. But he wished to submit it to his hon. friend, whether it would not be desirable for him to adopt the same course respecting his Amendment which had been pursued with respect to the former Resolutions, namely, to suffer it to lie on the table for a few days, in order to allow gentlemen an opportunity of considering its contents. The question was one of great moment and delicacy, and required to be looked at gravely, with a due regard to the constitution of this empire. Nothing could be so hostile to the existence of union and tranquillity, as the division of the legislature into three estates, unless they were duly balanced: but the great perfection of the constitution of this country was, that no class of the community was excluded from its just share in the deliberations of the state.— Many bills had been passed with a view to prevent abuses; but the present question, if any, deserved the peculiar attention of that house. If he were to be called on to give a vote on the present question, he would support the Amendment of his hon. friend, though he should be much better pleased, if his hon. friend would consent to put off the discussion of it for a few days, as had been done when the Resolutions were at first proposed, in order to give the house an opportunity of comparing the Amendment with those Resolutions.

concurred in the suggestion of his right hon. friend, and recommended to the committee to defer the further consideration of the subject until both the Amendment and the original Resolution should be in the hands of gentlemen.

contended, that as the navy, the army, the ordnance, the public debt, and every thing connected with the management of public affairs had considerably increased, so also must the influence of the crown have been proportionably extended. That influence could not but be communicated to a great number of members of parliament. It must have continued to work in secret and in silence, and it was the duty of that house to watch and counteract it. Having observed the progress of that influence, he was ready to agree in the principle of the motion before the house, or in any other measure that was likely to lead to a gradual and temperate reform of abuses.

was ready to enter into the discussion of the question at that moment, and would vote for the Amendment, though he had no hesitation to accede to the suggestion of putting off the discussion to another occasion. He could not, however, avoid saying, that the object of all former times had been to curtail the influence of the crown, and to prevent placemen from having seats in that house.

, though he wished for a decision upon the subject of his Amendment, had yet no objection to put off the final discussion to a future day. He saw no reason why chief justices should be made Peers, nor why Welsh Judges should be allowed to become members of that house. Neither could he admit that, because a person abandoned his profession, he should have a provision for life made for him for having abandoned it. He was ever ready to admit that a person, worn out in the service of his country, ought to be adequately provided for; he contended that no such extravagant compensation, as had been given to Mr. M'Donald for quitting his profession to become a Commissioner of American property, ought, under any such circumstances, to be granted. Such grants were contrary to the plans of Mr. Burke, Mr. Pitt, and lord Shelburne. The increase of the influence of the crown would be obvious, when it was considered how much the army, the navy, and every other branch of the public expenditure had been augmented. He had no objection to suffer his Amendment to lie on the table for a few days, or to withdraw it altogether, with a view to bring it forward as a separate motion on Thursday next.

entered into a justification of the appointment and remuneration of Mr. M'Donald, and concurred in the propriety of adjourning the discussion of the Amendment to a future day.

rose to explain a statement in the Supplement to the Third Report, which concerned him. When lord Wellesley went to India, it was thought advisable to insert the hon. member's name in the patent of the office of Remembrancer of the Exchequer, in case the office should become vacant while lord Wellesley was absent; but the hon. member reaped no emolument whatever from this arrangement, and was very much surprised to find his name mentioned in the Supplement to the Third Report in rather an ambiguous manner. This mistake did not originate with the Chancellor of the Exchequer; and the hon. gent. had indeed made a statement to the committee, disclaiming the receipt of any emolument in consequence of the arrangement the hon. member had explained.

replied, that the hon. member's name was introduced into the Report, in a manner that was perfectly unambiguous; for in one passage, after giving the hon. member's name, it expressly stated, that the profits were understood to belong only to lord Wellesley; and in another, after giving the hon. member's name conjointly with that of lord Wellesley, it was added, that the profits were supposed to belong to lord Wellesley. The first Resolution was then read, and carried without a division.

proposed to make a separate motion to the house of his amendment, on Thursday next.

then left the chair, and reported progress to the house. The Report was ordered to be taken into further consideration on Thursday next.