without any prefaratory observations, stated to the Committee, that the total saving on the ordnance estimates for this year, amounted to nearly one million and a half;—under the head of ordinaries, there would be found to be an excess for this year, amounting to 7,000l.;—but under the head of extraordinaries, there would be found to be a diminution of charge, amounting to 1,140,000l.;—and under the head of unprovided, there would appear a diminution of 352,209l.;—so that the total saving under these two heads of extraordinaries and unprovided would consist of a diminution of expence, amounting to 1,492,209l.;—and the total sum he meant now to call upon the Committee to vote for the ordnance service of the current year, for the United Kingdom, amounted to 3,819,466l. The saving under the head of extraordinaries arose from various causes. There was a reduction from the annual charge of the foreign service, of 200,000l. There was also a saving in works and repairs of 260,000l. There would be found a further saving of 60,000l. by the reduction of draught horses; and by a diminution of the number of depots, there was an additional saving of 100,000l.With respect to the estimates for the ordnance in Ireland, there would be found generally to be a saving of 123,000l. and under the beach of new works, would be found a further saving of 17,000l. The hon. gent. concluded with moving. "That it is the opinion of the Committee that a sum not exceeding 3,819,466l. be granted to his Majesty towards defraying the ordnance estimates for the current year."

rose and said, he was not surprised that the hon. gent. had been so brief upon the subject; but he must request the patience of the Committee, while he deviated from the example which had been given, and went a little more into detail. He found, in looking over the papers which he held in his hand, a reduction of 100,000l. from the last year's expence, and so far as such a reduction could be proved to be real, he was willing to allow the hon. gent, due praise. This reduction had been made in the expence for saltpetre, and in those charges which were termed 'unprovided,' a phrase equivalent to 'extraordinaries' in the common accounts of the army. But when he looked into those parts of the statement where extravagance was most unjustifiable and unserviceable, he found the old Spirit still alive, and as vigorous as ever; he found charged in 1809, 4,586l. for a house for the Secretary, in Pall-mall; he next found for a building for a similar purpose, 8,406l. which, with a non-descript charge, which he could not distinctly trace, at that time, amounted to 11,000l.The expenditure in the ordnance department in providing apartments for its officers was intolerable; summed up, it was not less than 45,000l. It might be alledged that a considerable part of this expence had been sanctioned by himself (Mr. Calcraft) and his colleagues, while in office; but the contract for the house in Pall-mall had been made before they could have any influence over it. As it was, they tried to get rid of it, to throw it off the hands of the nation, to exchange, to sell it; and, in the failure of all their efforts for this purpose, were forced to perform the contract; but improvements and embellishments were going on, which would make the cost of that onerous fabric at least 50,000l. But the expence of the establishment did not halt here: a miserable house in Pall-mall was bought up at the sporting price of 7,163, for an engineer officer; another for the inspector general was purchased at a splendid price, in that same most expensive part of the town.—He must now advert to an expenditure which it might seem invidious to touch upon, but which it was absolutely necessary to notice, he meant the pay of the superannuated men, and the pensions of widows and officers: but under this title, interesting as it must be to the feelings of the House, a large system of peculation was easily concealed; it contained all the private pensions of the ordnance, and in even the last year had increased by 6,599l. The melancholy events of the past year presented but too obvious a reason far this increase, With regard to the works in the country he found a charge for the Cinque Ports, and he requested to know if the fortifications at Dover were completed. He found in the estimates the Chatham head of expence diminished, but still the extravagance there had been enormous. He had but to instance the artillery barracks; those buildings contained about 1,000 men, with a few horses, and some sheds for carriages; yet the expence of the work had been 150,000l. Another questionable item was that of 19,000l. towards the erection of an artillery hospital—he wished this item to be further explained. But there was another rather extraordinary item of 5,000l for the construction of a powder magazine in Dorchester; it was natural for the hon. gent. to have his partialities for Dorchester, but he (Mr. Calcraft) was at a loss to know why a powder magazine was necessary there; He wished to be informed whether it was to treasure up the military adores of the town, or to receive the spare powder of the entire district. He hoped, however, that whether or not, it would be kept at a safe distance from the town; but 5,000l. was a sum undeniably too large for so idle a purpose. He next found under one sweeping head, for building and taking land for building on, at Woolwich, 134,000l. This charge first met the eye in the modest form of 78,639l. and was gradually inflated up to the aggregate which he stated. The minor abuses there, were of the same rank with those which he had noticed at Chatham. Officers were known to make almost a property of the horses provided for the service; and while they had them in actual employ drawing their coaches and curricles, refused to pay the tax demanded by the commissioners, on the plea that they were the king's horses. The commissioners, however, resisted such a plea, and would allow no more than a single horse for each officer. On a late inquiry, it was found that an officer had in his service no less than nine or ten soldiers as the regular attendants in his house, as his grooms, valets, and for aught he knew, as his cooks, butlers, &c. and four horses. This person's plea, he understood to be, the exercise of an assumed and as yet undisputed privilege; that he had been guilty only of what he had known others, and many others, to have been constantly guilty.

stated, across the table, that a court of inquiry was sitting upon the case alluded to by the hon. gent., and if any officer should be found guilty of such practices he would be punished by a court martial.

resumed; if the circumstances he had stated were true, he trusted that the court of inquiry would not rest there; but he would not detain the House any longer upon the circumstance, but proceed. The next charge which he found was a small one, it was true; but he found no cause for it, trifling as it might be thought; 650l. for ordnance expenses at Hungerferd. The next objectionable item of charge, was that for building barracks at Wedenbeck; and here he must observe upon the general folly of that extravagance, which built such sumptuous apartments for men whose income could not exceed 300l. or 400l. a year, as would be fit for men of as many thousands, giving them thereby idle notions of expenditure, and leading them consequently into extravagance. He found likewise in the estimates a provision for artillery drivers, a corp of between 5 and 6,000 men, with 6,000 horses. This great and most expensive body was and could be, of no possible use in the country, excepting, in case of an invasion, to move the artillery from one pact of the country to another. He did not find the sum relative to them printed in the estimates. Those artillery horses were cantoned by five and six hundred together in districts on the coast; yet in these very districts the country was charged with 87,000l. for contract horses, to do the general work; while the driver's horses were idle, totally idle, fat, and sleek, and pampered till they would be unfit for even the single service to which they were designed. He knew that officers bad an aversion to putting their horses to any work that sullied the glossiness of their skins, or dimmed the polish of their harness; but the expence of the corps amounted to the enormous sum of 400,000l. whilst its services were only useful at the actual moment of invasion; as if we could have no notice of invasion, not a moment to prepare; or, as if the species of horses employed in the artillery were not precisely of that description, of which an almost unlimited number might be got at any pressing moment in the country! Yet for this event, distant, if it should ever arrive, the country was to be saddled with an intolerable expence, a permanent and certain burthen, to meet an event barely contingent. The number of the corps employed on foreign service must be small, and there could be no ground for continuing an useless expenditure at home. The corps should be reduced, not perhaps totally; it might be advisable to leave a skeleton for an increase of the corps, if it should be necessary; but if the number of horses were 6,000, he would reduce them to 1,000. He apologized for the detail into which the subject had led him, but it was one to which too keen and patient a spirit of inquiry could not be applied; it was not becoming the economy of that honourable House, to vote away immense sums without minutely investigating the necessity of the charge, and particularly without knowing the application of former estimates. The charge for saltpetre, in which a reduction was boasted of, was 600,000l. The charge for artillery drivers' horses in Ireland was 10,000l. He did not comprehend the foundation of a charge to that extent; did it comprehend the purchase of horses in Ireland for the corps here? [He was answered in the negative across the table.] He confessed himself totally at a loss to account for a charge which seemed so superior to the necessities of the small corps stationed in Ireland; and he must lament to find, that the spirit of economy which had given such hope of rational retrenchment was merely nominal at best; a reduction only from one degree of waste to another; from the indefensible extravagance of last year, to the almost equally culpable extravagance of the present one.

admitted the excess of the present year's estimates over those of 1806; but that excess was imputable to the increased exigency of public affairs since that period as well as to the rise in the price of every article. With respect to the house in Pall Mall, he entered into a minute detail of the proceedings, on the part of the board of ordnance in purchasing that house, to shew, that the board had been influenced by an anxious attention to economy. Their former house had been at St. Margaret street, and from their wish to avoid expence, they had long and distinctly refused to contract with the commissioners for widening and improving the streets about Westminster; a peremptory notice, however, finally obliged them to give up their house; and they then called Mr. Wyatt, their architect, before them, who stated that the lowest terms on which he could build a house for them was 40,000l., and that he could not do it in a space less than two years. They had heard in the mean time, that the Union Club House was for sale, and that the proprietors were distressed for money. He (Mr. Cooper) was consequently ordered by lord Chatham to treat with the proprietors' agent, Mr. Gould, for the purchase of the House, not for the public service, but on the part of a private individual. He did so, and succeeded in getting the house at such a price, that the original proprietors' creditors were very indignant when they heard of the terms of the sale, and who were the purchasers; the sum given for the house was 30,000 guineas, including the furniture, without which the house would not be sold, and which was worth 5,000l. With respect to the house for the Secretary, when he came into office, he found an estimate, for a new house for the Secretary, of 6,800l. This, as having, he presumed, the sanction of lord Moira, he had acted upon and Mr. Cooper sold his interest for 7,163l. The plan of the Chatham buildings was Mr. Wyatt's; and as to the officer alluded to by the hon. gent. as having been put under arrest at Flushing, he could only say he had found that officer at all times intelligent and active. With respect, however, to the buildings of Chatham, he had reason to hope that there would be no further demand upon the public upon this head. The depôt of carriages for sea service was of wood, and this made it so liable to the danger of fire, that it was thought necessary to build another depôt. With respect to the abuse of horses, the hon. gent. had over-rated the case to which he had alluded, the officer not engrossing the use of nine soldiers and five horses, but only of two horses and but two men, but these constantly: there might have been more occasionally, but it had been determined to prevent the continuance of this abuse for the future.—Of the artillery horses, to which the hon. gent. had adverted, some had been sent to Spain and Portugal; some were in Sicily, and some were in Ireland; and 1,500 were to be reduced. The use of the horses however was not confined to the dragging of the guns. They were necessary for the purpose of training the drivers. The battles on the continent lately, it would be recollected, had been decided chiefly by the rapid movements of artillery. The drivers too, upon occasion might be drafted into the artillery, where they proved very useful. With regard to saltpetre, it had been thought necessary to have a quantity in the country equal to seven years consumption, and hence the large sum demanded under that head; when this augmentation had been proposed by him there was but a supply for two years consumption in the country. The artillery horses could not do the business now performed by contract horses. The contract horses were employed in the works which were carried on only in summer, and it was at that season that the drivers were trained, go that the artillery horses could not be employed instead of the contract horses. The works of Dover were almost finished, and therefore there would be a reduction under that head.

said, that 30,000 guineas was a most extravagant sum for the house purchased for the board. No individual would have given such a sum for it. The expence of it altogether was 51,000l. independent of the house for the Inspector General of the engineer department. As to the work of the contract horses, he was still fully persuaded, it might be performed by the artillery horses. One set of the horses might be at work while the others were in training, and different sets might thus relieve each other alternately. He observed the enormous sum of 16,000l. for contract horses in the London district. He had not heard of any public works carrying on in that district. There might be such however, but that ought to be Stated.

said it seemed to be the intention of government, like rich men, to lay in a store of every thing which might by any possibility be wanted; not, like men of economy, to say to themselves, "Can we by any possibility avoid this expence." (Hear! hear!) But he rose chiefly from his local knowledge of Woolwich, to make some remarks on the expence and utility of the works now carrying on there; and 700,000l. he observed, was the estimate for various buildings carrying on in that quarter. He could positively state, so far from tins being necessary, that the works there were a common jest to the whole neighbourhood. He had heard them ridiculed within the very walls of the arsenal, about which he scarcely ever rode without observing some new piece of architecture. The land which lay on the side of the Thames had been, he declared, purchased by government at a sum above ten times its value; and this purchase was not more to be condemned than was the expenditure of 20,000l. on a wharf. He had said thus much on a subject with which he was locally acquainted, because he knew those estimates were now (not, as formerly, confined to the House) canvassed by the country at large. He hoped every member would examine them, and express his opinion on those with which he was acquainted. He could not sit down, without again declaring, that the buildings at Woolwich were particularly objects of disgust for their inability and extravagance.

rose, not for the purpose of canvassing each individual estimate, but of remarking on the entire mass of charge, as it stood before him. He confessed he had had some hope, that a retrenchment would have taken place, from the declaration of an hon. member opposite, last session, that there would be a saving this year of a million and a half. An ostensible diminution had now indeed taken place; but if any one took the trouble of examining the estimates carefully, he would see that it was but ostensible. The saving had been made only by using old stores, &c.; but in any new estimate, a real diminution by no means appeared. Throughout the entire list, indeed, the utmost affectation of minuteness was observable, even to the calculation of pounds, shillings, and pence. But he had particularly to condemn one head which constantly appeared in the ordnance estimates, even although it had been disapproved of, by a Resolution of the Finance Committee, so far back as 1797; he meant the head denominated "Unprovided for." A close inquiry into those estimates was now essentially necessary, particularly as any account of the application of the expenditure was to be refused hereafter. He hoped, however, that the day when the House should have a full and fair account of the expenditure of every sum voted for the public service, was not far distant. To shew the affected minuteness of the present estimates, he had only to refer to two items, which he had accidentally observed. The first was the estimate of the expences at Cumberland Fort, in which a penny was calculated; and the next was for a fortification at Gosport, estimated at 5,600l. and sixpence. (Hear! hear!) This was really so ludicrous, that it did not deserve a serious comment. The excuse of the hon. gent. for the enormous estimate of 6,000 artillery horses, was, that indeed they were necessary in order to train and exercise the drivers! This surely, could be done just as effectually by 100 horses. (Hear!) Last session he had moved for an account of the contingent expences of this drivers corps; and though his motion had been agreed to, the account had not as yet been laid upon the table. He had heard they amounted to 6 or 7,000l. annually. The waggon contracts he had also expressed his disapprobation of; and it would be incredible, if the account had not been taken from the estimates of the years themselves, that the contracts for those waggon horses for four years, had amounted to 674,000l. Comparing this year with the former year, a reduction of 60,000l. did, indeed, appear in this estimate; but this was compensated for in the very next estimate, by an addition of 30,000l. He was informed, that a rumour had reached the ordnance, concerning these very horses, and that a person had been in consequence sent on an investigation, but that he never had made his report, and that there the business was allowed to end. The complaint was, that many of the horses had been taken from the public business to be employed on the farm of Mr. Welling, and sent down for inspection on the days of muster.

In the estimates with respect to Ireland, he saw that in the contingencies of this train, those of other corps were included, although the expenses of these other corps were afterwards introduced in the army estimates. In the contingencies of the Irish artillery, between the years 1808 and 1809, he observed a difference of above 7,000l. the reason of which he could by no means comprehend. There was also another circumstance which, he confessed, perplexed his calculation: it was, that there were in Ireland but 2,400 artillery men, and in England 25,000, and yet in one year the contingent expences of the artillery in Ireland amounted to half as much as the expences of the artillery in England. He should be glad to bear this accounted for. The number of horses, too, in Ireland, were the same as last year, and he had been informed 10,000l. was to be demanded for an increase of them; yet he saw that the estimate for forage for this year was not less than for last year, which appeared unaccountable, if the number of horses was the same. As long, however, as the head of "unprovided for" was allowed to remain in the estimates, any charge, either as to forage or any thing else, might be introduced. At Waltham Abbey the sum of 104,053l. was estimated as the expence in erecting powder mills for four years. Now he could by no means see the necessity of any such expence. The French and Germans, it was well known, used barns or any other temporary building for the manufacture of powder, and every body knew what an effectual use was made of it. He admitted, indeed, that he had heard the foreign powder was not so good as ours. In those estimates it was the custom to vote large sums under the head of different buildings; and yet a sweeping charge wag made for these afterwards, as for the "defence of the country." Various charges were included under this head, which had been made before under the head of depots, fortifications, &c. &c. For four years indeed, commencing at 1807, 4,193,000l. had been voted for buildings, repairs, &c. ("Ammunition included" from the ministerial bench). No, said Mr. Wardle, for buildings and depots; and in the next four years it would be no doubt in the same proportion. As to the minuteness of the estimates, it signified very little whether they were minute or not, as any mistake might easily be obviated, so long as the head of "unprovided for" was allowed to continue. He hoped these were the last estimates, in which such head of expenditure would be allowed to be brought before the House; and he hoped also, that an account of the expenditure of every sum voted in the estimates would hereafter be produced. He was sure there could be no difficulty in the computation, as it would be much easier give an account of how the money had been expended, than to make out an abstruse estimate in the beginning,

said, that the House were not to understand by the term "unprovided for," that there was to be no account given. He allowed, that with respect to land purchased in the neighbourhood of Woolwich, the price was exorbitant, but it was extorted from the public necessity. The land was absolutely necessary for the range that was acquired for the artillery. As to the increase which the hon. gent. took notice of in the corps of drivers, it proceeded from a mistake in the estimate of last year when the number was stated at 5,000, whereas it was really 5,600. The expence, however, had not been increased except in giving increased allowances. The hon. gent. appeared to him to confound the draft horses for the artillery with the contract horses. The contingencies of the artillery in Ireland included the contingencies of the horse artillery, of the corps of engineers, and of all other corps connected with the ordnance. When the hon. gent. complained of the expence of the powder-mills at Waltham Abbey, he should have recollected the period of the American war, when government powder was proverbially bad. Bad as it was, we were then entirely dependent for a supply upon the merchants. Even at the time of lord Nelson's celebrated victory, the stock of gunpowder was so small, that the ordnance could have hardly issued enough for another battle of the same sort, and were absolutely obliged for a time to suspend their issues for foreign service, in the expectation of a scarcity. This was a fact, which it would have been dangerous to the public service to have been stated at that time; but the evil was now, in a great measure corrected. The hon. gent. had spoken of the practice of the French to make powder in barns. If he would take the trouble to examine the works at Waltham Abbey, he would find that we also use, for that purpose, many buildings that resemble barns. Under the general head of "the defence of the country," was included the expence of building batteries and martello towers along the coast. And as to the sum voted for building and repairing depots, it had lately been judged necessary to have a large quantity of artillery and ammunition in depot, to guard against invasion or unforeseen contingency.

said, that as it was impossible for gentlemen on his side of the House to have the same means of information on this subject as the gentlemen on the other, their objections must come from what appeared on the face of the estimates. It happened that he had made observations respecting the works at Waltham Abbey, as he passed by them once or twice every week: and he was really astonished at hearing that they cost 100,000l. for there was nothing about hem which to him appeared to require such an expence. He was afraid that there was, in no instance, a sufficient check on the expenditure of the public money; and that the public generally paid 10, 20, or even 30 per cent. more than individuals, for the same work. He remembered, that when those works at Waltham Abbey were going forward, he was perpetually threatened by his workmen that they would leave him, and go to Waltham Abbey, where they would be sure to get whatever they choose to ask. When government also consented to give a sum of 12,000l. for 45 acres of ground near Woolwich, they submitted to what appeared to him a most extortionate demand. Now he could not perceive any good reason for this. They might have either purchased at a fairer price other ground nearly as eligible; or, if this particular piece of ground was necessary, there were means to which the public might have recourse to purchase it at a fair and reasonable price. An expence of 12,000l. had also been incurred, in purchasing the lease of a house to be fitted up for the secretary of the admiralty. This appeared also to be a profuse waste of the public money. The purchases of wood in the four last years appeared enormous; as did also the money perpetually expended for building store-houses, military buildings, and quarters for officers at Woolwich, This amounted to no less than 422,000l. in the four last years. It appeared to him that the heads of the ordnance had acted on no settled system, but according to their own caprice, which was too much indulged. He remembered that when the late duke of Richmond brought in his celebrated plan of fortification for all England, it was supported by government and by so many gentlemen in that House, that it was only by the casting voice of the Speaker that the country was then saved from a most enormous burden; and he belived, that if the whole expence of the martello towers had been stated to parliament at once, they would hardly have agreed to the present extension of them. He was afraid that in no department of the government was there a sufficiently strict hand kept over the expenditure, and that in every item of the expenditure there was a consideration of gain to some individual. In one instance a man had been dismissed from an office, and yet received a pension of six or seven hundred a year, which was calculated on emoluments that were at the time not supposed to be fair. It was high time therefore that the country should now see, that the House was resolved to attend to public economy, and not merely to keep up the government by the influence which contracts and jobs procured. The person who was allowed to defraud the country in a small instance, would be thus prevented from giving information against persons committing great abuses. They would conceive themselves parties concerned, and a sort of esprit de corps would prevent them from detecting greater abuses. He thought, therefore, that too much publicity could not be given to every item of public expenditure, as publicity was the best remedy for abuses.

admitted the impropriety of conniving at peculation. The man who did so could be no friend to his country. Much had been said of the expence incurred by the works at Waltham Abbey. It was but fair that the circumstances under which those expences were incurred should be taken into consideration. The annual expenditure of gunpowder was from 50 to 60,000 barrels; and at the commencement of the present war he (Mr. W. Pole), on being appointed to the Ordnance, saw with inexpressible anguish that we had not in store more than 14,000 for all the services of the country, and a considerable portion of that was not applicable to the navy. It might be proper to state to the House the quantity of powder commonly expended in a battle. In the battles of the 29th of May and the 1st of June not less than 5,000 barrels were expended. Had another action occurred at that period, the distress of the country for gunpowder would have been extreme. Under these circumstances, the Master and the Board of Ordnance were bound to do all they could by possibility effect towards alleviating the evil. They called on the merchants, in the first place, to state what quantity of powder they could produce in a given time. They were engaged to furnish the greatest quantity they could possibly make in five years, but even this provision was insufficient. Thus situated when the country was exposed to such extreme distress, did it not become imperatively the duty of his Majesty's ministers to exert themselves to avert the threatening evil by procuring an ample supply from some other quarter? They felt it to be their duty to ascertain what the royal powder mills were capable of producing. The works at Feversham were first examined, but those were found in such a state that but little aid could be expected from them. The state of the Waltham Abbey mills was next inquired into, which were found capable of making but 10 or 11,000 barrels yearly. Now, in consequence of the arrangements made they did not produce less than 22,000 annually. To effect such a change, it had been found necessary to double the extensive works of that place. This had been done at as cheap a rate as might be, but it was physically impossible to produce so great a change without incurring a considerable expence. The buildings for that purpose though they were slight (as had been stated) were very expensive. In the first place the coming-houses were filled with mill machinery of the nicest quality, so nice, that if one of the present works at Waltham Abbey were blown up to-morrow, it would take six months, employing the best workmen that could be found, to put up the machinery of another before powder could be made. Of these buildings, at the present time, we possessed five or six at Waltham Abbey. A great improvement had been made in the drying of powder; formerly gloom stoves were made use of, in which 40 barrels of powder were dried on shelves by a most dangerous process; now an improvement having been made by General Congreve, the powder was dried by steam in perfect security. The benefits accruing to the country from this improvement were immense, but the apparatus required in consequence was very expensive. The advantages however were such that he trusted they would give full satisfaction to the Committee and to the country. Another instance in which an increase of expence had occurred was occasioned by the improvements in refining of salt-petre, which had been refined to a degree almost incredible. For this also the country was indebted to General Congreve. Great expences had however been sustained in consequence, as they had been obliged to double the establishment of the melting houses, and an additional expence had been incurred by canal works, &c., which thus became necessary. The mills also had occasioned an immense expence, and much difficulty had been found in procuring mill-stones. Those were very expensive, and here he had to notice a great ad vantage derived from our Irish, works, as formerly we were obliged to gain all our mill-stones from Flanders. We began to be in great distress for the Want of millstones, when happily a quarry was discovered in Ireland. This discovery however was not made till those works were begun. One advantage arising from the establishment of those works was, we were enabled to make powder at a less expence than that the merchants furnished us at, and of a superior quality to that they supplied. It was of consequence to keep up a rivalship between the merchants and the crown, and to avoid materially depressing either the one or other. The manner of supplying ships with powder was not so good as it might have been. Powder, take what care they would of it, would not keep for any great length of time. The damp, in a long voyage, would get to it. Buildings were therefore erected at Portsmouth and other places for drying and mixing powder, so that now when ships came in their powder was sent to the magazines and changed with more facility than formerly. At the period to which he bad alluded, the exigencies of the country were such, that he thought no time was to be lost. He would not suffer any delay to arise from their not being able to obtain, workmen through the pay being insufficient. If men could not be procured to work for their usual wages, sixpence or a shilling a day ought not to be suffered to oppose an obstacle. Whether the expence were 50 or 70,000l. in the then circumstances of the country, he thought of little importance when the object in view was considered. He had next to speak of Woolwich. When a noble lord, whom he should ever be proud to call his dear friend (lord Chatham), and who, whatever might have been said of him, had proved himself a good servant to the country, was placed at the head of the Board of Ordnance, he found Woolwich in a state very different to what it is now in. It had not even a covering for the stores which were there deposited. He (Mr. W. Pole) had been charged with the equipment of an expedition, and the state it was in at that time was such, that not an officer went down who was not of opinion that the Ordnance would be a month behind the other parts of the armament. There was not a person in any department of the state who did not make that an excuse for neglecting his duty. Lord Chatham had planned the improvement of the wharf which had been so successfully executed. Gentlemen opposite had no right to blame government for not laying the whole of the plans for the improvement of Woolwich Warren before them when they had not been moved for. All the heavy work of an expedition lay on the Ordnance. In the late expedition the number of ships they had laden with battering trains and other Ordnance stores amounted to seventy. He had been called on to know how soon he could load fifteen or sixteen ships, when he replied, that if he did not set them off in three days after they were sent to him, he would lose his right hand. Formerly his answer would have been, that he would have sent off two or three in a fortnight after they were sent to him, and possibly the whole in about six weeks. Was the increased expedition with which such a force could be sent out nothing, was it worth no additional expence? At the time lord Chatham was placed at the head of the Ordnance, there was no covering for the carriages of vessels, now there were carriages for thirty sail of the line, sheltered in wooden storehouses.—They had even no place for the storing of timber at the breaking out of the present war, the carriages were, in consequence made of green wood, which did not last half the time they would have tasted had the wood been properly seasoned. It was well known that if wood were painted before it was perfectly dry, it would not do half the service it ought. He therefore contended that, it was true economy to keep a proper stock before hand. He was responsible for the increased expence attending a two years supply of wood in store. At the period to which he had alluded, the means of the Board of Ordnance to construct field carriages were so circumscribed, that they was forced to contract for the number they had occasion for at a great expence, while an inferior article was supplied, Contemplating this inconvenience lord Chatham had ordered a new carriage yard to be made on a large principle. This measure he contended was creditable to the country and consonant to the dictates of true economy, as the carriages were now made under the eye of an officer capable of giving a proper judgment on them, instead of their being obliged to lave them from London. He had been the cause of 1,000l. being expended on a steam-engine more than they had occasion to pay for an inferior article. He had sent to Mr. Bramah that they might have the best they could be furnished with, as he thought the best would ultimately prove to be the cheapest. The laboratory had been formed when the establishment at Woolwich did not amount to one-third of what it now is. A considerable sum had been laid out for the improvement of it, and he hoped still more would be so expended. He wished the hon. gent. who had expressed himself as being so much shocked at the expence, to go over Woolwich Warren and look at the laboratory, carriageyard, &c. When the war broke out, on examining the ship ordnance, there were found 7000 guns which had not been re-proved. The powder being so much stronger than formerly (he meant the cylinder powder), he thought it was necessary they should be re-proved, and fortunately it was for the service that his suggestions were attended to, as nearly one-fourth of their number did not stand the shock, but burst with such violence, as materially to injure the buildings which stood near the old proving hut, and some of the fragments passing over the wharf, were near falling on the hulk. This circumstance shewed the necessity of fixing on a spot for proving the cannon at a greater distance from the buildings, though the fitting up of a new place was necessarily attended with some expence. Another very considerable expence was incurred by the building of a new academy. That this was necessary no one doubted, a contagious fever having broke out in the old one, in consequence of the crouded state of the cadets. That however, was not the cause of its being erected, lord Chatham had seen the necessity of it before, and the building was at that time in progress, when the fever breaking out appeared like an argument sent down from heaven in its favour. That building he supposed cost more than 150,000l. The barrack establishment it had been found necessary to enlarge, as there were only accommodations for 5,000 men, when 24,000 were to be provided for. Similar reasons rendered the enlarging of the hospital necessary. Our field train, consisting of 600 pieces of cannon, exceeding by six times what England ever possessed before, it was necessary to erect buildings to preserve them from the weather, which was done at a great expense. A proper place for instructing the artillery more scientifically was loudly called for, where gen. Congreve might superintend their exercise; this had been also supplied. These statements he conceived were a sufficient justification of the expences incurred, and he thought the conduct of lord Chatham entitled to the highest praise for acting in so systematic a manner. The buildings of which he had spoken, he contended were necessary. In making them, the board of ordnance had done their duty. If in the course of the work any extravagance could be proved, let the bolt of vengeance fall where it might, and punish the offence as it ought to be punished. He would next speak of the Martello Towers. They were erected at a time when much was said both in and out of that House of the danger of invasion. It was thought necessary to build those Towers under such circumstances. Now it was impossible for the enemy to invade us, gentlemen might decry that policy, but at that time a different sentiment prevailed throughout the country. When the expence attending their erection was spoken of, the circumstances under which they were raised ought to be remembered. They were not to be erected at leisure. If they were not erected by the following June, it was thought the enemy might come and render their labour useless. He had recommended it to lord Chatham to send for gen. Twiss on the subject, who gave it as his opinion, that it was impossible to build them but by contract. A Mr. Hobson, who had built the London docks with great ability, was named as a person fit to conduct the undertaking. Mr. Hobson, however, would not undertake to do them, as the uncertainty of the expence was such that he thought no man could in justice to his family enter into such a contract. It was then thought the only way left to them, was to employ workmen to be superintended by Mr. Hobson, allowing him a per centage, under the observation of gen. Twiss. Even this offer Mr. Hobson declined accepting till he (Mr. W. Pole) called upon him as an Englishman to aid his country in her extremity. The right hon. gent, concluded by stating in detail the difficulty they had to encounter in erecting the Martello Towers.

said he had great reason to find fault with the estimates, not only as being very extravagant, but at the same time most extraordinary; for while some things appeared to be wonderfully overcharged others seemed to be as much the contrary. The hon. gent. who spoke last, had, since he left the ordnance department, been employed as secretary to the admiralty, and in that capacity he had stated that 70 vessels had been provided for the ordnance service in the Expedition to the Scheldt last summer. If that were the case, how the whole expence of that Expedition could only amount to 800,000l. was to him astonishing. He should have thought, as he knew that vessels for the transport of ordnance stores were the most expensive of any, those vessels would of themselves have amounted to half that sum. He condemned the whole system as the most absurb and extravagant he had ever heard of. He censured our most important depôt of stores being placed at Woolwich, which was so near the sea; and thought that for fear the metropolis should ever be taken by the enemy, a very great depôt should be formed at Nottingham, where it would be attended with many advantages.

defended the erection of the Martello towers, and thought it was the duty of government to prepare for the storm before it burst on their heads.

said that these Martello towers were all constructed for the purpose of being defended by two guns, but by some strange blunder they could only carry one. He should not have said any thing more on the subject, but the hon. gent. had told the House, that invasion was a bugbear, and yet they were now called upon to vote a sum of 160,000l. for those towers. In one place where he had been, there was a line of coast of at least six miles totally without any defence of the kind, though the hon. gent. said the coast wag studded with these towers.

was not prepared to vote for the estimates, because he thought them in many instances most extravagant. Another objection he had to doing it, was, that when he looked at the House (which was very thin indeed) he could not think that go large a sum as 4,000,000l. of the people's money should be voted away by so few of their representatives, and with so little investigation. He should therefore, move, as an amendment, that the chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

seconded the amendment.

observed, that the hon. gent. (Mr. W. Pole) had said that it was morally impossible that an invasion of this country should now take place. Why, then, were they called on to vote away so large a sum of the public money for fortifications, which must be wilful waste, if no invasion was to be apprehended? He objected particularly to the word "contingencies," which appeared so often in every page of the estimates. He did not understand what was meant by the term. There were contingencies at Quebec, and contingencies at Curacoa, and yet those at the one place might bet very different from those at the other, As the money had actually been expended, it was easy to say how that had been done, and in fact it ought to be fairly and clearly ascertained, He condemned the establishment at Weedenbeck, as a most extravagant one; and throughout the whole he said that every article concluded with 'current services' and 'contingencies.' The House had a right to know, and they ought to insist on knowing, what those lumping charges for 'current services' and 'contingencies' were; the whole amounted to 109,000l. and before he voted such a sum he was entitled to know how it was to be expended. There were many articles of great magnitude, with 'contingencies' in every one, that were altogether unexplained, for which reason he should vote in favour of the motion to report progress.

expressed his surprise that the hon. gent. who had just sat down, should, with all his acuteness and activity (and he thought him the most active member of that House he had ever seen), have sat so many years in it, and not have found out that in all that time, and for years before, the ordnance estimates had always been made up in the same form, and yet neither the hon. gent. hor any other had ever before on that account found fault with them. If the accounts were produced, they would be extremely voluminous.

said, if he had not before observed the inaccuracy of those charges, it was the more necessary he should endeavour to have it corrected now that he had discovered it. The hon. gent. had not, however, explained what he wanted to know, viz. what was meant by 'current services' and 'contingencies.' He had talked of an account, which would be volumious if produced. Then there was such an account in existence, and he (Mr. Whitbread) desired to have it.

, under all the circumstances of the discussion, thought it would be best to adjourn the farther consideration of the estimates to the time proposed.

The House was ordered to be cleared for a division; but none took place, the Resolution having been agreed to.

opposed, and Sir John Sebright spoke in support of the Resolutions, and after some further conversation the House divided—