then rose and said, that, in rising to perform the duty which he had assumed to himself, he felt a considerable degree of satisfaction from knowing that there was no objection to be made to the principle of the propositions which he meant to submit. It would, indeed, in his judgment, be impossible to justify any objection to a proceeding which had nothing but public economy in view. Since so many speeches from the throne had recommended economy, since so many addresses from that House had expressed an entire acquiescence in those recommendations, he, could not believe that any gentleman would be found indisposed to give effect to pledges so solemnly and so frequently repeated. That economy was in the existing circumstances of the country indispensably necessary could not, he thought, be disputed by the most sceptical. That it was necessary, appeared to him perfectly obvious no less from the peculiar situation of this country than from the general state of Europe and of the world, and particularly from the operations of the enemy, which seemed directly and distinctly pointed at our financial prosperity. But, independently of these considerations, the known wishes and wants of the people were alone sufficient to call the attention of the House to this subject. If no recommendations had ever been offered from the throne, if no pledges had ever been made by that House, it was impossible that any candid man who looked at the amount of the public revenue, and at the manner in which it was disposed of, could hesitate about the propriety of taking effectual steps to controul the public expenditure.—When it was known, that the whole of the burthen arising out of sinecures amounted to no less than l,500,000l..per annum, could any one question that propriety? He did not mean to state that the entire of this expenditure ought to be done away; for he was willing to accede to the propriety of making good the several sums voted by parliament; that the allowances, for instance, to the younger branches of the royal family were neither exceptionable nor unnecessary; but the amount of the expenditure under these heads respectively, furnished an additional argument why economy, so universally admitted to be necessary, should be more particularly attended to in other respects. In fact, wherever that economy was practicable it ought to be promptly and effectually enforced, and there was, he believed, scarcely a department of the state in which its enforcement was not loudly called for by the nature and extent of our public expenditure. It was once observed, with regard to the duchy of Lancaster, that although it yielded only 4,000l. a year to the public treasury, it afforded 40,000l. to the pockets of individuals; and a similar observation was, he feared, applicable in a certain degree, to several other branches of the public revenue. Let the Committee recollect the sums raised in the way of fees and pre-quisites upon the produce of the public taxation, and how much these fees increased with the increase of our taxes, and then the grounds of his apprehension would be easily understood.

Although he had regretted the delay which had taken place in bringing this question under discussion, he was now disposed to consider that delay as by no means injurious to his object; for fall time had been thus allowed for examining the question in all its bearings, and an opportunity had been offered for hearing the statement of an hon. gent. (Mr. Huskisson) respecting our finances, which statement, if it did not alarm, was certainly calculated to attract the most serious attention of the House, from the known acquaintance of that hon. gent., with the best sources of information upon that subject. It must now, therefore, be evident, that the closest examination of our expenditure should take place; that every degree of regularity in its administration and retrenchment in its application should be established. To his mind, indeed, it furnished matter of astonishment that some of those retrenchments had not been long since made, which had been often and long since recommended. By the Report of the Committee of Finance in 1796, the abolition of two offices, namely, the treasurership of the ordnance, and the paymastership of the marines, was particularly recommended, and yet those offices had still existed, until the justice of the opinion of that Committee had become glaring to the country. Even now, indeed, those offices were tolerated, notwithstanding the notoriety of the evidence that they were totally unnecessary for any public purpose, and led only to the greatest abuse.

As to the Resolutions which he meant to propose, the honourable gentleman begged it to be understood, that he was not tenacious of any forms which might create a difference or opinion among those who agreed in the main principle; his object being to embody the suggestions of the Committee of Finance, he was not at all wedded to forms, but would be willing, with the utmost readiness, to attend to any proposition from the worthy chairman of that Committee, (Mr. Bankes) to whom he had before alluded. The suggestions of this Committee were entitled to peculiar attention. In fact, every day that had elapsed since their Report had been laid before the House, served to give strength to their opinion, and all he proposed by his Resolutions was distinctly and directly to pledge the House to act upon that opinion.

Having thus stated his disposition to accede to any suggestion from Mr. Bankes, the hon. gent, expressed his happiness that that hon. member was again invested with the power of prosecuting and rendering effective his laudable solicitude for the promotion of public economy. That much had been done to economize the public expenditure, and to introduce reform into the public offices, he was ready now, as on a former occasion, to admit. But he regretted that, notwithstanding the Report of the Finance Committee in 1796, and the public animadversions which had been repeatedly made upon the subject, not a step towards reform had been taken in any of the law offices. On the contrary, every sinecure office had continued to be filled up again and again, from a succession of reversionary grants. Thus the Report of the Finance Committee of 1796 was utterly disregarded. Such disregard might have been tolerated before the salaries of the judges were advanced. But when that advance took place, it ought, in his opinion, to have been stipulated with the judges, that they should give up part of their patronage. The Report of 1796 sanctioned this opinion; for it proposed that the patronage so given up should be disposed of in the ordinary way, and the produce applied to a fund, from which the judges who retired should derive their pensions. Such an arrangement ought, in fact, to have been provided for in the act granting the increase of the salaries of the judges. Had that been the case, he believed that a fund might have been formed, sufficient not only for pensions to judges on their retirement, but even to defray a considerable part of the salaries of the acting judges. The necessity of reform in the disposition of offices in the several law departments, was in fact notorious to all those who had any knowledge of the subject. The circumstances connected with the appointment of the chief clerk of the king's bench, contributed to prove it. In this office there had been in fact but five vacancies since the restoration of Charles the Second. Nothing appeared to him more disgraceful to a great country, or more inconsistent with the dignity of the judicial offices, than that any judge should derive profit from fees or perquisites. While he recommended the reform be had described, he begged it, to be understood, that it was quite foreign to his wish to interfere with the legitimate patronage, or fair emoluments of the judges. Indeed it was his opinion, that the arrangement he proposed would in effect add to their respectability, while it would not diminish their salaries. He would be sorry that his intention on such an occasion should be misunderstood or misinterpreted in any degree.

Adverting to the late pamphlet of a right hon. gent, opposite (Mr. Rose) he expressed his astonishment at the position which that right hon. gent, had laid down, that the influence of the crown had not been increased since the adoption of Mr. Dunning's celebrated Resolution, "That the influence of the crown had increased, was increasing, and ought to be diminished." Such a position, indeed, was calculated to excite universal surprise. But there was scarcely a man of common observation in the country who did not know and could not prove the contrary. He would ask any man to look at the enormous increase at our army and navy since the passing of Mr. Dunning's Resolution—at the several new offices created, since that period, and the pensions granted, since the adoption of Mr. Burke's bill, in violation of its spirit, and to state what he thought of the right honourable gentleman's extraordinary, assertion. He would challenge the right hon. gentleman at any time to a discussion of the grounds upon which he pretended to rest that assertion. But the most effectual refutation of the right hon. gent. would appear from a simple statement of our comparative receipts and expenditure at the period Mr. Dunning's Resolution was adopted, and at the present day, with a Report of the grants and promotions which had taken place within that interval. Here, the hon. gent. read the following statement:—

From this statement he should leave it to the House and the public to decide as to the accuracy of the right hon. gent.'s assertion. For was it possible that any man of common sense could subscribe to the opinion that such an augmentation of revenue, such a variety of appointments would not operate directly to increase the influence of the crown? But it seemed the right hon. gent, in his calculation had quite forgotten the new sources of influence created by the barrack department, the transport office, and the board of controul, especially the latter, the junior members of which had, he understood, no other trouble assigned to them than that of receiving their salaries. It was, however, convenient for the right hon. gent. to forget these and other points also which could not at all square with his favourite doctrine as to the influence of the crown.

After referring to the Report presented to the House of the number of civil offices in the country, and expressing a wish that a report of a similar nature should be annually laid before parliament, the hon. member proceeded to animadvert upon the object and application of the four and a half per cent, duties. Those duties were, he observed, originally levied for the purpose of keeping up and improving our fortresses in the colonies and by no means with a view to be subject to the private dispensation of the crown. But, yet, those duties had been made the means of advancing that influence which the right hon. gent. would maintain to have been for years back wholly unimproved. It was not difficult to divine the cause of the right hon. gent's anxiety, to disseminate his statement through the country before the discussion of this subject took place. But the doctrine of the right hon. gent. could make no stand. It was in fact totally unfounded.

He wished, however, in the observations, which he felt it his duty to make with respect to pensions, not to be understood as by any means disposed to object to the grant of a liberal provision and an ample reward from the public purse to meritorious public servants. But he would ever contend against all grants of pensions under the sign manual, as an illegitimate exercise of the prerogative. He also objected to the practice of granting pensions out of the salaries of public offices, for he maintained, that the crown ought to have no power to grant pensions contrary to the spirit and provisions of Mr. Burke's bill, which prescribed that the whole of the pension list should not exceed 90.000l. a year. If in any case it were deemed just to make any additional grant, let it not be done by such subterfuges as he had alluded to—let not the provisions of Mr.Burke's bill be evaded—but let, the case be brought fairly and constitutionally before parliament, which never was and which never would be, he trusted, inattentive to any claim of justice. Whilst upon this topic he felt, that he could not impress too strongly upon the Committee the necessity of investigating this question, and of making some provision against the practice he deprecated, which practice involved a wanton addition to the public burthens and an evasion of the law while it gave scope to favouritism and unjustly extended the influence of the crown. Recurring to Mr. Burke's bill he animadverted forcibly upon the excess beyond its provision which had of late taken place in the pension list. It was his wish that the whole of this business should be brought annually under the inspection of parliament. The grantees, in all cases, of pensions, ought to be made known, in order that the amount of their pensions might be compared with the nature of their services. It was by frequent revision in these cases that parliament would be most likely to ascertain what retrenchment was practicable; and under the present circumstances of the country it became the peculiar duty of parliament to devote its attention to that object. From the temper manifested of late by the House, there was every reason to augur well for the cause of economy. Through the exertions that must result from a continuance of that temper he had no doubt that considerable savings would be made in the several departments of the public expenditure, and the smallest savings should be estimated; for even such savings, if economy were extended, might, in the aggregate amount to something considerable. The country had expected the attention of parliament to be directed to this subject, and therefore it must calculate, that as the report under consideration had lain two years before that House, it would now come to some satisfactory decision upon it. He was sorry that it had remained so long on the table without any decision being come to upon it, because, from that circumstance, the interest it had originally excited, and which it still in an equal degree deserved, seemed, from the attendance of members, to have somewhat abated.

With respect to the Amendments proposed he was willing to adopt the first and second Resolutions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as there was in reality little difference between them and his own, but the third Resolution of the right hon. gent. seemed to recognize a principle which he (Mr. Martin) felt it his duty to oppose, namely, that some offices should still continue to be matters of patronage. There were he understood some resolutions to be proposed by an hon. friend of his (Mr. Bankes) which he should have no objection to, as far as he was made acquainted with their nature and substance. The eighth Resolution of the Chancellor of the Exchequer went to limit the pension list to foreign ministers to 2,000l. a year, he knew that many pensions had been lately granted for very short services, and would wish to see some distinction established, by which those, who had served long and successfully, should be distinguished from those of a contrary description. As to the interference of parliament upon such occasions, it was no new thing, in proof of which the hon. member quoted the case of the receipts of the auditors of imprest accounts having been reduced, from 13,000l. to 7,000l. a year, and also of a motion of a similar tendency, with regard to the tellers of the exchequer, having been lost in 1780, only by a majority of five. Those two precedents he thought sufficient to justify the reduction of the receipts of any public officer, which parliament might deem inordinate, and he should wish to see the principle generally applied. It did not appear to him fair, with regard to the courts of law, for instance, that those officers, in whose hands the money of suitors was deposited, should be at liberty to make use of that money, without rendering the profits accruing from such use to the real owner, the party succeeding in the suit. Some legal provision upon this subject was highly necessary, and it should be attended with other reforms, particularly as he had before stated, with respect to the disposal of officers in all the courts, both in England and Ireland; for he saw no reason why the arrangement should not, in this respect, be the same for both countries. The honourable gentleman concluded, with proposing his first Resolution, namely, "That it was the peculiar duty of that House to promote economy in the public expenditure."

proposed an amendment by adding the words "of all branches of his Majesty's goverment," which being read,

assured the hon. mover that he had not alluded to him, when he observed, that the savings, which had taken place for the last thirty years, were never noticed by the advocates for economy; for he had no disposition to say any thing uncivil to the hon. gent. As to the pamphlet quoted by the hon. gent., he had thought it proper to put his name to it, and was, therefore, ready to answer for any thing it contained. He would not, however, presume to say, that it was free from error, but he could state that there was nothing in it willingly inaccurate. With regard to that position to which the hon. gent. objected, namely, that the influence of the-crown had not been increased of late years, as some gentlemen were so loud in asserting, he had heard nothing from the hon. gent. that could dispose him to alter the opinion he had written. But he rather believed the hon. gent. had not read the pamphlet in which that position was laid down. The increase of our public debt, and consequently of the interest, he of course admitted, but he protested that he did not know how the influence of the crown had been thereby increased. The Bank was, no doubt, under the necessity of employing some additional clerks in consequence of our increased revenue. But the hon. mover asked how the revenue could be increased without advancing the influence of the crown? From this question he saw that the hon. gent. had not read his pamphlet. For himself he declared that when he looked at the increase that had taken place in our revenue, he was quite surprized at the very small addition of officers it produced. He believed that, with the exception of the department of the customs, this immense revenue was collected, without the addition of above thirty or forty officers. As to the army or navy, with these departments he was so wholly unacquainted, that he could not speak to any influence that might be exercised in either; for he protested he had no knowledge of the disposition of above twenty commissions in both services ever since he entered into office; and he knew that Mr. Pitt was perfectly chaste on these points. He was sure that the recommendation of his deceased friend was never found to interfere with professional claims either in the army or navy. To the influence, therefore, arising out of the disposition of patronage in the army or navy, he was as little enabled to speak with certainty at the hon. gent.—With respect to the hon. gent.'s observation, that he had forgotten the transport office, the barrack department, and the board of controul, in his statement of influence, that observation again proved that the hon. gent. had not looked at his pamphlet; for the fact was, that he had gone into detail in that pamphlet upon each of the heads alluded to; therefore when the hon. gent. should take the trouble of reading that pamphlet, he would have the candour to acknowledge the mistake he had committed this night. As to the report of sir G. Cooper, he should not object to the annual production of such a report. On the contrary, he would second the hon. gent.'s motion for that purpose whenever he should think proper to make it. Of the violations of Mr. Burke's bill, to which the hon. gent. alluded, he declared himself entirely ignorant. The hon. gent. cited a precedent from the auditor's office for reducing the receipts of a public officer, but he believed that was the only instance in which such a case had occurred without any grant of compensation to the party affected by it, That, however, was a case in which the duty of the office was performed by inferior clerks, and the principals never interfered, in consequence of which the public accounts were slurred over; but at present those accounts were scrutinized with a degree of precision rarely to be found in the private concerns of the most accurate individuals. The right hon. gent. concluded with assuring the hon. mover, that his pamphlet was not disseminated to meet this discussion, it having in fact, been written in the course of the autumn, and left in town for publication.

thought the pamphlet of the right hon. gent. to be one of the greatest delusions that he ever remembered to have been thrown in the way of the public. The right hon. gent. had affected a laboured minuteness of detail, Where he was calculating the number of the offices that had been reduced within the given period of time; but if the right hon. gent. had acted fairly towards the public, he would have set against the offices abolished the new-created offices which had been added within the same period. Upon the barrack expenditure, he thought the pamphlet in question equally defective; no less a sum than nine millions had been added to the burdens of the public in this department, and would it be pretended for a moment, that the power of disposing of so much additional money did not necessarily carry along with it an increase of the influence of the crown? The pamphlet, however, overlooking this enormous addition in this single department, stated generally, that there are annually expended 45,000l. to barrack masters and their clerks. But where were the expenses in carrying on military roads, and all the other public works connected with this department? Were these to be defrayed out of the 45,000l.? or if they were not, ought they not to have been set against the offices reduced? and if so, was the amount of money, saved by such reduction, worthy of comparison with the amount of expense incurred by the new establishments? Another point from whence the influence of the crown had derived, in his opinion, considerable means of extending itself, was the judicial system in India. Pensions, within the period mentioned in the pamphlet, had been granted for life to judges retiring from office. They had seen the effects of this. A right hon. and learned gent., now a member of that House, for whom he had great personal respect, had retired immediately upon the passing of that act. Another gentleman, who had been a member of that House, and who had since gone out to India, he meant sir William Burrowes, had also retired upon the passing of the same act; and it did so happen, that that gentleman did almost invariably vote with ministers. Now, upon this head alone of the judicial system in India, the expenses did not fall short of one million a year; here then was another new source of serious increase of patronage. Besides, there were various favourable opportunities for the extension of influence in the exercise of East India patronage. The president of the board of controul had, they well knew, his share of patronage. That gentleman might, if he pleased, send out a number of young gentlemen to India every year. He was not, he believed, very strictly limited as to the number. The hon. gent. might smile, but he (Mr. Creevey) believed him to have a very extensive patronage of this sort attached to the office which he held. He believed he had the privilege of sending out as many as he pleased. Another glaring omission in the pamphlet was, that respecting the influence derived from our conquered colonies, and yet it was well known, that since our conquest of Ceylon, Mr. North had gone out as governor of that island, at a salary of 10,000l a year, and that general Maitland had since succeeded him at the same salary. Another honourable gentleman, whom he lately saw in his place (Mr. Huskisson) had received 1,200l. a year pension out of the public money. This gentleman derive also considerable emolument from the situation he held as agent for the affairs of Ceylon, which was, he believed, so circumstanced, or under such management that the hon. gent. was in a manner the auditor of his own accounts, as he accounted only to himself. Another head from which great influence was derived, was that of the droits of admiralty. With respect to this species of property, some gentlemen had contended, as if the droits were as much the private property of the King, as the estate of any gentlemen wag his own private property. Now of those droits partly arising out of the sale of the Dutch and partly of Danish prizes, and amounting to the sum of eight millions, but two millions had been as yet accounted for. Had the captors received their due share out of the produce of the Dutch prizes; or if they had not, he would be glad to know, what that consitutional person, Mr. Bowles would say to this.—

Another circumstance, which might justly be an object of constitutional jea- lousy was the new sort of connection that had grown up between the Bank of England and the government. Who would have dared to predict, 25 years ago, that the Bank, under the protection of government, would have withheld payment in specie, and for this protection would in their turn have become tax gatherers for the government? The East India company was, in the consideration of this influence, another just object of jealousy, with a debt abroad amounting to 32 millions—with a debt at home of many millions—borrowing what all the world knew they could never be able to repay; the charter expired, or on the eve of expiring, and they looking up to the government to renew it. He knew not how it was possible for gentlemen, directors of that company and having seats in that House to do their duty at once to the proprietors, and to their constituents. He certainly thought the situations of such gentlemen a nice and difficult one. Again, with respect to the head of pensions, the pamphlet had studiously avoided all detail. Indeed, the right hon. gent. seemed to know perfectly well, when it suited his own purposes when to go into detail, and when to be summary. On the head of the reduced offices, he had been elaborately minute in his detail, and had even gone back to the comparatively remote period of queen Anne's reign, though he avowed in his pamphlet that his observations should be confined within a certain limited period of time. In the four and a half per cents. and the Scotch pension list, there appeared to have been but two or three members of parliament that had pensions in the year 1784, but at present no less a number than 17, were quartered upon this fund. Another subject, upon, Which the pamphlet had been silent, was that respecting the contractors. He believed that there were such persons members of parliament, and also that the right hon. gent. himself believed that there were. He was at least satisfied that the right hon. gent. would not take upon himself to say, upon his honour, that there were not such a description of persons among the members of that House. The name might be concealed, and no doubt was, to evade the act of parliament.—The hon. gent. then proceeded to pass an opinion upon the pamphlet generally, which he said bore internal evidence that the writer of it could have been influenced by none but party motives. Considering the talents of the right hon. gent., he thought it a most unworthy production, being a narrow and most partial view of the subject it professed to treat on. With respect to one side, it was a most pitiful statement; and with respect to the other, it was altogether defective, neither more nor less than suppressing the real state of the question by partial and entire omissions.

, with some warmth said, that, he trusted the Committee would excuse him for again rising to answer another attack upon his unfortunate pamphlet. The hon. gent. who had just sat down had dealt out his abuse of that dull performance, and his censure upon the motives of the writer, in a manner that might fully justify him (Mr. Rose) in paying very little deference to the opinions of that hon. gent. That hon. gent. had said of him what he had no right to say. He had unfairly and unjustly imputed motives to him which he denied to have influenced his conduct, and in doing so the hon. gent. had acted unwarrantably. The pamphlet alluded to was generally charged with a deficiency in detail. But he appealed to those who had read the pamphlet, if this objection was well founded. With respect to this judicial system, it was the first time he ever had heard, that providing for the independence of the judges was adding to the influence of the crown. With respect to the contracts in the barrack department, he knew of no influence respecting them. As to the charge of not going into detail upon pensions, he admitted, that he had not given a list of the names of the pensioners, nor did he think it necessary to do so. As to the influence arising out of the conquered colonies, he did not believe that the whole consisted of above 8 or 10 offices that any man of any sort of competence would accept. He had omitted in his pamphlet, which had been, however, censured for too nice detail in treating of the redaction of offices, to put against that head the various offices in the American colonies that had been lost with the loss of America. The hon. gent. had put him a question respecting the existence of secret contractors in that House. He (Mr. Rose) knew of none: he believed there was no such thing.—He would go further, and declare as his conscientious conviction, that there was not in that Honse one single individual, who directly or indirectly had any secret interest in contracts since the time of the passing of the act of parliament. With respect to the subject of licenses, he had admitted, that he had intercourse with members of that House, respectable merchants, respecting them; but he denied solemnly, that in point of favour he ever made any difference whatever respecting the persons, who applied to him. If the hon. gent. himself, or any of his friends on the same side, had applied to him on that subject, they would have had from him as equitable a portion of attention as any other member of that House; and if he was capable of a different line of conduct, he should hold himself utterly unworthy of the situation which he held.

did not see why the hon. gent. should have thought it necessary to introduce the affairs of the East India Company into a discussion of that kind. He denied that the judicial system in India had had any effect in increasing the influence of the crown. The million a year included the salaries of the judges that went circuit, and of the whole police of the country in the interior; and the crown had not the appointment of the judges in India. As for the great official influence that had been imputed to him by the hon. gent. he had only to state distinctly, that whatever it might be with respect to the recommendation of persons, he had never exercised it. Lord Minto had in his possession a pledge from him (Mr. Dundas) that he never would exercise it. He had hitherto kept that pledge, and he would continue to adhere to it. As to the patronage of sending out writers, it did not extend to more than one or two every year. With respect to the parliamentary scruples of the directors affecting the discharge of their duties here or elsewhere, the hon. gent, had only thrown out an opinion, unsupported by any fact or argument, and it might be met by another. One thing, however, might be observed, that there were generally as many directors on one side of the House as upon the other. The judicial system in the East Indies had not grown up since the time of Mr. Pitt. The judges of Madras and the recorder of Bombay had been since added; but these offices were the only additions to the system during that period.

re-asserted his statement with respect to the India judicial system. He had taken it from three India books that were before the Committee, and had referred it to the consideration of other gentlemen, more capable and better informed on the subject than himself. It had received their sanction, and he therefore had not made it hastily. He had never mean to say, that the crown had the nomination of the judges in question, neither had he said that all the judges had been additional. He was aware that the Bengal judges were appointed long before Mr. Pitt's administration, but the pensions on retiring had been, granted since.

in defence of the masters in chancery, felt it necessary to state, that they had no patronage whatever, and that the increase of their salaries had taken place by act of parliament one or two years before the hon. gent. had thought of bringing forward his resolutions. The hon. gent. might therefore very well have left these officers out of his statement; and his object in rising was to prevent its going forth to the public, that masters in chancery possessed any undue patronage, or received any undeserved remuneration for their laborious services; services not the less meritorious because withdrawn from the public view.

said, that the general reasoning upon the side of ministers had been, that they had not used the patronage they possessed. But that was not the question before the Committee; it was not who used, or who did not use it, but whether they should have it to use beyond a certain limit. He thought, for instance, the patronage of granting trading licences one that admitted of great abuse, and that called for serious consideration.

said, that the hon. gent., could not but be aware that the abuse of the power of- granting licences was of such a nature as must call for open and speedy detection if it existed, and must be productive of effects, the most fatal to the government that could be so rash as to resort to it.

was of an opposite opinion. He thought it a power open to abuse, and by no means open to detection. One of two merchants might be ruined by deferring the grant of a licence which might be withheld from him who happened not to be in favour, while the other who was more fortunate, might, by an early grant, have his goods out to the earliest market. Here there might be flagrant injustice, and yet where lay the remedy?

said, that it was impossible the grant of licences could be secretly carried on, and dwelt upon the great industry of the board for granting licences, which sat six days in the week, so that a person applying on Tuesday was almost sure of having his answer on Wednesday.

The first Resolution was then put and carried.

, having given way to the amendment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Resolution was proposed as thus amended—it being understood that Mr. Bankes proposed to introduce his amendment on the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Resolutions.

then rose, to state his object in bringing forward the amendment he meant to submit to the Committee, was lo remove the vague and general words from the Resolution, and to propose such as would at once shew in what spirit the House came to the discussion, what principles it meant to adopt with regard to the abolition or regulation of the offices to which the Resolutions referred. It was true, indeed, that it was always the duty of the House—that it was always a great and important duty, to pay the strictest attention to public economy. But the duty became more imperious at a time when the House was under the necessity every year of imposing heavy burthens on the people. It was natural that, under such circumstances, the people should inquire whether there was any opportunity for retrenchment, and expect, that if there was, that opportunity should not be neglected.—The saving might possibly be small, in amount, but the principle was of the last importance. It was the duty of the House to take care that no money should be wastefully employed, and that when money was given for official duty the duty should be actually performed. The public had a right to the service for which they paid—and, therefore, when offices at first efficient, came, by a change of circumstances, to be sinecures, they ought to be abolished, so that the salaries might be available for the offices which had sprung up, instead of those that became sinecures. It was through negligence that these offices were allowed to remain after the duties originally annexed to them had ceased. He then alluded to the large sum which was now expended for auditing the public accounts, which had become necessary in consequence of the immense increase of the public expenditure. But what he objected to most particularly was, that the efficient and the non-efficient officers should each have salaries. Instead, then of the general words of the Resolution, he wished to bring it to this, that sinecures should be abolished after the interests of the present possessors in them were at an end.—He imagined that there could hardly be a difference of opinion on this point, that people ought not to be paid by the public for doing nothing, but the question would turn upon this, whether these offices, though they could not now answer the purposes of their original institution, ought not to be retained, as necessary for the reward of merit and eminent service, and he agreed that there ought to be provided some means of rewarding great service beyond the daily wages received by those who had been for a length of time faithful and able servants of the public. He hoped he should be allowed to read the four Resolutions which he held in his hand as these would shew that in framing them, he had not neglected this point. It had been usual to reward such services either by a direct pension or by a sinecure office. He rather thought that it would be better to confine the reward of service altogether to direct pensions instead of having what were direct pensions lurking under the name of offices. A great part of the mischief arose from this confusion of terms. The granting of pensions would be notorious and unequivocal, and this very notoriety would prevent their being conferred in a profuse or glaringly improper manner, but there was no such security with respect to these sinecure offices. As an illustration of this, after disclaiming the intention of saying any thing invidious, he adverted to the manner in which a great sinecure had very lately been applied. This instance, indeed, was hardly wanting, because it was in the common way of giving away sinecures. He therefore did not blame his right hon. friend on the other side (the Chancellor of the Exchequer,) as he had only done what had been customary with regard to such offices. But what rendered this instance a little remarkable was, that there was a case of great service before the House at that very moment. A message had been brought down by the minister from his Majesty, recommending the grant or a pension to lord Wellington, to which the House agreed, The bill for conferring this pension had not passed through the House, when a sinecure office fell into the hands of his right hon. friend. But instead of rewarding the great service of lord Wellington with this sinecure, it had been given to a right hon. gent. (Mr Yorke) who had, be firmly believed, acted always in his politics upon the fair conviction of his own mind, and with whom he had sometimes, differed. He meant to say nothing invidious of that right hon. gent., who very probably had no prospect either of this or any other office of the kind, for the line of political conduct which he had thought it right to follow. But nobody could say, that he bad ever done any particular service to the country which deserved this reward. He had never performed any service certainly, for which any one could have dreamt of conferring upon him a direct pension to the amount of the emoluments of the sinecure which was now in his possession. He did not think therefore, that both the mode of direct pension, and that of sinecures ought to be preserved. For the pensions would be given for services performed, and the sinecures would he granted, as hitherto, from favour. This method of granting direct pensions for services had become a very great source of expence, and yet there had been no reduction of the sinecures. There had been instances in which these offices had been applied to the necessary and commendable object of the reward of services, such as those which had been granted to lord chancellors. But as great inconvenience and irregularity arose from their not being vacant at such times as they were most wanted, the act of the 39th of the king had been introduced for granting direct pensions to chancellors, by which they became a charge on the nation, independent of the burthen of these offices which were afterwards granted as matters of mere favour.

These considerations had induced him to think that it would be much better to abolish these offices altogether, and to give his Majesty the power of granting pensions, to a limited amount, in lieu of the offices abolished—the power of giving the additional pensions always commencing with the fall of the sinecures. This was necessary in order to prevent the crown from having for a time the double power; and without this caution it would not be a measure of economy, in the first instance, but a measure of extravagance. What might be the saving on the whole .by the abolition of these offices he was not at the moment prepared to state, but it had been calculated in the Report. This, however, was clear, he thought that, whatever might be the saving, it was important that these offices should be abolished for the reasons which he had already stated. There was another description of offices too which required the attention of the House, he meant those where the emolument was large beyond all proportion to the duty. It was proper that these should also be regulated, and that an allowance should be made in every instance proportioned to the services performed. There was a third class of offices more numerous that the former—he meant the offices which were executed by deputy. The object of his Resolutions would be with respect to them, to abolish what was sinecure and retain what was necessary, reducing the emolument to that for which the duty was performed, with some increase in many cases, no doubt, on account of the increased responsibility. — The hon. gent. then read Resolutions conformable to what he had stated, concluding with this—"That a select Committee be appointed to examine to what offices the principle he had thrown out could be applied." Having read all the Resolutions, he proposed the first of them as an Amendment upon that which had been read from the chair. The substance was, "That it was expedient to abolish sinecures, except such as were connected with the personal service of his Majesty, or the royal family—to regulate other offices, and to reduce the salaries of such as were executed by deputy to the sum for which the service was performed. with an allowance for the additional responsibility—all to be done after the present interests in these offices had expired."

observed, that whatever the House might .think as to the propriety or impropriety of pledging itself as to the measures recommended by his hon. friend, all must agree, that the propositions were of the utmost importance in themselves, and required, the most serious and deliberate examination. It was of importance to be cautious in adopting them, both on account of their effect upon the influence and interests of the crown, and in as much as they were of a novel nature. He could not complain that he was taken unprepared upon this subject; but he doubted whether the Committee would be prepared to decide at once upon matters of this importance, with such a very short warning. Resolutions had been proposed from both sides of the House last session, and a long debate had taken place upon them. The Resolutions had been printed; they had been long in the hands of members; and as both sets of Resolutions were similar in principle, gentlemen must have been pretty Well aware of what they were to Expect. But his hon. friend had, during the whole of that period, given no hint of his intention to propose any thing of this kind; and as the propositions were of so much importance in themselves, he hoped the Committee would not allow itself to be surprised into their adoption. But he Could not agree, that the propositions if acceded to by the Committee would have any of the good effects which his hon. friend had anticipated, considering the way in which he proposed to accompany them; and yet, with that accompaniment, the Committee could not be aware what practical measure his hon. friend would proceed to found upon, them if passed. The committee, of which his hon. friend had been chairman, had stated in their Report, that some offices ought to be abolished, and others regulated; and proposed, that some substitute should be found for these offices with a view of providing means to reward public services. It was then clear that there must be some substitute for these offices, and that substitute, his hon. friend had said, must be commensurate with the sinecures abolished (No, no)—commensurate with these offices, he understood (commencing with the fall of the offices)—commencing with the fall of the offices, was it? Well then, if the amount of the pensions were not to be commensurate with the value of the offices, there would be a reduction of the funds, out of which great services were to be rewarded. What was required of the Committee by his hon. friend, then, was this, that it should consent to abolish the funds which the crown had at present, without knowing how far any thing else was to be substituted without knowing to what extent he would propose to grant the power of conferring direct pensions. It was proper to be perfectly aware whether his hon. friend meant to propose any diminution in the funds for the reward of services, because that might alter the argument completely; for if no reduction of the fund was intended to be made, then it would be for the House to consider whether, the question of economy being entirely out of the case, the change proposed by his hon. friend would be attended with the advantages he expected from it, whether it would serve to conciliate the people, to remove the complaints or satisfy the desire of the disaffected and discontented? It was necessary, therefore, that his hon. friend should explain himself distinctly on that point to the committee.—Mr. Burke, to whose opinions the finance Committee had referred in its report, had Said, that changes had a tendency rather to increase than diminish discontent; for people, he said, submitted with patience to old and established practices, if these practices were kept within correct bounds, when they would feel a new mode of bearing the same necessary burthen almost intolerable. Mr. Burke too, had the subject of direct pensions and sinecures under his consideration, and all he said was, that upon the whole he rather preferred the mode of rewarding services by direct pensions. So his hon. friend said that it was the inclination of his mind, upon the whole, to prefer the method of direct pensions. It would appear from this, that he had not formed a decided opinion upon the question, but was rather inclined to think that upon the whole the mode of pension was preferable. But this Would hardly be sufficient to induce the House to adopt measures of this importance, without having attentively and maturely weighed their tendency, and without having formed a decided opinion, that their adoption would answer some essentially good purpose. The House could not on such slight grounds as those which had been stated by his hon. friend, assent to this change, nor could it reasonably hope that such a change would have any effect in alleviating public burthens or removing discontent. What did Mr. Burke say on the subject? He said, that he would have no great objection to such a change, but that he did not think it prudent to propose it. He did not like to take away what answered the purpose, in the hopes that some substitute might possibly be found. Mr. Burke then, had refused to be the proposer of such a change, and had said, that instead of removing discontent, it would rather tend to increase it. The House would therefore do well to consider gravely before it gave, into a proposition so new in itself, and so suddenly submitted to them for their decision. But his hon. friend had adverted to a grant of a sinecure place lately, which he contended was a most unexceptionable one, (a laugh, and hear, hear!) that was his opinion. There was no law to prevent a grant of this nature being made to such a man as Mr. Yorke, who certainly had been some time in his majesty's service. He thought that the office was part of the patronage of the crown, and that his majesty was at perfect liberty to confer it upon any meritorious individual he pleased. His hon. friend had said, that the place might have been given to lord Wellington. He could not, in consistency with the ideas of his hon. friend, grant the office in reversion at any rate. But if it had become vacant at the time Mr. Yorke was in office, he did not known that there could have been any objection to his possessing it. His hon. friend had said, that he had no objection to the rewarding of long and faithful civil services. What then was the period of service which his honourable friend would think necessary to form a Claim to these rewards? Till some other period was fixed, he might be allowed to suppose that the three years Mr. Yorke had been in office rendered him not an improper object of his majesty's bounty. How long would it be necessary for a man to expiate the demerit of not having been in office? He would ask the gentlemen on the other side, whether they would have it thought it wrong that Mr. Fox should have got a sinecure of this kind before he had been a year in office; though he had spent a long and laborious life in opposition? Independent of party feeling, he thought that the sinecure in question had been very properly disposed of. He hoped the House would see that this was a measure of too much importance to be adopted so lightly. His hon. friend said, that the sole ground on which he brought it forward was that of economy (No! no). Yes, of economy. He had indeed said, that the measure would conciliate the people, and remove discontent; but that he understood to be only through its efficacy, for the purposes of economy.—He did not understand that his hon. friend rested it at all upon the ground, that it was proper to diminish the influence of the crown; but conceived that he placed its great utility in its effects in point of economy. He perfectly agreed that every saving should be made that was consistent with the public service, that could be made without detriment to that service. But there the question arose, could this change take place without detriment to the public service? For his part, he thought that the attempt to cut off all these offices at one sweep was extremely dangerous. As to the influence of the crown, he still retained the sentiments he had before expressed—that the influence of the crown, upon the whole, had not increased, compared with the great increase of the popular branch of the legislature in wealth and influence, and power in the state. That was his opinion. As to the assertion, that the influence of the crown was increased by the national debt, he believed the very reverse to be the case. He felt himself bound therefore to oppose the amendment.

explained, that he certainly thought that less than the aggregate amount of the sinecures, in direct pensions, would answer the purpose of affording adequate means to reward public services. As to the charge of having taken the House by surprize, he said that an individual member could only propose his resolutions in his place—but the House was called upon at present merely to settle the principle. The substitute, &c. would be a matter for future consideration. But he should be extremely glad if the Houses, would allow his resolutions to be printed, that they might consider them with all the care which had been bestowed on those of his right hon. friend.—He was sure his resolutions would gain by that.

instantly assented that time should be given to print his hon. friend's resolutions. But he thought it ought to be understood, that the subject, if postponed at present, should not be debated this week; because, if they were to sit from night to night very late, they could hardly be equal to the exertions that would be required in the debate on the Walcheren inquiry.

considered the accusation of surprise as perfectly unfounded. Some on the same side with the right hon. gent. had brought forward motions of the, same kind, the member for Sussex particularly, which were at least liable to a similar objection. The opposition to the abolition came with a very ill grace from him—a great reversionist, and one who had sinecures from his infancy for no service whatever. He allowed that Mr. Yorke was a very honourable private character, but he had performed no public service that deserved such an annual sum, and nobody would ever have dared to propose such a thing for him in the shape of a direct pension. It was not only the inclination of his mind, but his most decided opinion, that these sinecure offices should be abolished. As to the conferring of these places for public service, the right hon. gent. himself and Mr. Yorke were instances that this was a perfect delusion upon the public. He contended that though no great practical saving could be made, still even a sum might be saved not unworthy of attention. The reception of Mr. Yorke, by his former constituents, proved what the public thought of this grant. He went to them after vacating his seat, and they very properly refused to return him. Could the right hon. gent. state one instance in which a great public Service had been rewarded with a sinecure? It had been found necessary to create provisions for chancellors by direct pensions. As to the crown, these offices, instead of being a source of strength, were only sources of weakness, especially now when they had become quite disgusting. It would most certainly conciliate the people to shew that attention was paid to the proper expenditure of their money. It would be less vexatious to their minds to pay a pound when convinced of its necessity and justness, than one penny with an idea that any part of it was to go to these sinecure men.—To illustrate the want of attention paid to economy, and the truth of the observation of lord Melville, (at one time first lord of admiralty) that two thirds at least of our expenditure in the article of stores was misapplied; he cited the case of certain ships where stores had been laid in, on their sailing from the river for eight weeks, but in which on their arrival at the Nore, other stores were found to be necessary, those originally put on board having been made away with. Sinecures, the hon. member contended, were but an excrescence of the constitution. At the time the salaries annexed to these offices were granted, the offices were effective. It was, therefore, not so novel now to seek that they should be abolished, being non-affective, as to ask that they should convey, as it were, freehold rights to the sums in use to be paid for the performance of the duty annexed to them. It had been stated, however, by the right hon. gent. to whom he had before alluded (Mr. Yorke) that the fees of the office lately conferred on him did not come out of the pockets of the public, but arose from small fees on sums going into the exchequer. Were not all these, however, he begged to ask, sums collected from the people, and of course the per-centage on them an additional burthen on the public? It was beyond human patience that the people should be called on to endure insults of this kind. On these grounds he was of opinion that the House should that night come to a vote, on the resolutions now proposed for their adoption.

then proposed, that the matter should be postponed till to-morrow fortnight, the committee then to sit again.

The Chairman then reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again.