House Of Commons
Friday, March 01.
Report Respecting The Detention Of M Colville In Cold Bath Fields' Prison
brought up the following report from the Secret Committee relative to the detention of M. Colville in the House of Correction, Cold Bath Fields:
"The SECRET COMMITTEE, appointed to inquire into the circumstances connected with the detention of—Colville, now a Prisoner in the House of Correction in Cold Bath Fields; and to report the matter, as it shall appear to them, to the House;
"Have proceeded in the investigation of the matter referred to them; and have inspected various documents, and examined several witnesses relative to the causes and circumstances of the detention of the said Colville, the mode of his confinement, and the nature of his treatment in prison.
"Your committee report, That there appears to have been sufficient cause for his seizure and detention; and they are decidedly of opinion, that on public grounds it is necessary that he should remain in confinement: it does not appear to your committee, that he has suffered any inconvenience which is not incident to the description of place in which he is detained; but they are of opinion, that the regulations of such a prison are inconsistent with the nature of the confinement to which he ought to be subjected, and with that security from communication with persons out of the prison, which is necessary for the object of his detention.
"Your committee, from obvious considerations of public expediency, have felt it their duty, in making their report to the House, to refrain from entering into the particular circumstances of the case."
said, he thought it his duty to declare, that the report was unanimously agreed to by the committee. It was then ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.
Memorial Of The Creditors Of The Rajah Of Tanjore
A Memorial of the several persons whose names are there-under subscribed, being Creditors of his excellency the late Rajah of Tanjore, in the East Indies, was presented and read; selling forth,
"That, in the year 1788, his Excellency Ameer Sing was placed on the Musnud, or succeeded to the government of the districts of Tanjore, with the consent and by the means of the government of Madras or Fort Saint George; that, during the war with Tippoo Sultaun, the Madras government assumed the collection of the revenues of the Tanjore country, but, at the termination of that war in 1792, those districts were again restored to the said Rajah; a treaty was also then formed with him by the most noble the marquis of Cornwallis, on behalf of the East India Company, by which the entire sovereignty of that country was ceded to the said Rajah, on the condition of his paying in cash, by monthly kists or instalments, the sum of star pagodas 460,000, or thereabouts, until the year 1795, after which period he was to pay the sum of star pagodas 630,000, or thereabouts; that the memorialists further beg leave to represent, that some of them are soucars or native bankers, and that others of them were dealers in silk goods, in gold and silver, jewels and precious stones, &c.; that their ancestors had pursued the same profession; and that the said Rajah Ameer Sing, on the said countries being restored to him, had no money in his treasury; and that, as his revenues were collected in the produce of his countries", that produce could seldom or never be realized into cash in time to pay his money engagements; and that consequently the said Rajah applied to the memorialists to borrow money from them in anticipation of his revenues, and to purchase merchandise for the use of his family and the dependants on his palace; and that the memorialists, having always experienced in the said Rajah a disposition to comply with all his engagements with them, did accordingly advance him sums of money on loan, and sold him various kinds of merchandise; that the memorialists beg leave further humbly to represent, that, by orders from the right hon. lord Hobart, then governor of Madras, the said Rajah was made a prisoner in the month of December 1795, and a military guard was placed over his palace, and his ministers and confidential servants were separated from him, and confined as close prisoners, and the Madras government assumed the management of his revenues, although the said Rajah had punctually discharged the kists stipulated in the treaty of lord Cornwallis; and the memorialists are yet unacquainted with the cause of these proceedings towards the said Rajah; that the said Rajah, after finding himself unable to satisfy the urgent demands of the memorialists, expressed his sorrow on that account to the then British Resident, Mr. Macleod, and bewailed his misfortunes chiefly because of the distress in which they would involve the memorialists; and in consequence of which the said Resident men reported to the Madras government the amount then due to the Rajah's creditors; that the memorialists further beg leave to represent, that, in some months after the said Rajah had been thus deprived of his countries, they were restored to him by orders of the then governor general, sir John Shore, bart, but that, in the following year, the said Rajah Ameer Sing, on the plea of his not being the legitimate heir, was deprived of the Musnud of Tanjore, that his excellency the Rajah Surfogee was appointed by the Madras government to succeed, and with whom the Madras government immediately formed a treaty, by which he relinquished, for himself and his heirs, &c. in favour of the hon. East India Company, all his rights to interfere in the collection of the revenues, on the condition of receiving an annual allowance in money: that the memorialists further beg leave to represent, that his excellency the Rajah Ameer Sing, having been thus deprived of his countries (although he had been placed as the legitimate heir on the Musnud by the British government, about ten years preceding) and consequently with" out the means of satisfying the debts due to the memorialists, they then entreated the Madras government to lake into consideration their distressed situation, and respectfully represented, that, as it had possessed itself of the countries which had been pledged to the memorialists as a security for their advances, they relied with confidence that the justice of the Madras government would not permit the memorialists to suffer by the change which it had been pleased to make in the government of that country; that, in consequence, the hon. the Court of Directors was pleased to order the claims of the memorialists to be investigated, and that, in pursuance of these orders, a committee, consisting of three of the hon. company's civil servants, was appointed by the Madras government to carry these orders into execution; that the said committee, by public advertisements in the years; 1802 and 1803, invited all creditors to prefer their claims on the said Rajah Ameer Sing, and that the claims of the memorialists were rigorously examined and compared with the records of the Tanjore palace, and the proceedings of the said committee were transmitted, in the year 1803, by the Madras government to the hon. Court of Directors, and duly received by them: the memorialists further beg leave to represent, that, since the proceedings of the said committee were transmitted to England, they have repeatedly addressed the Madras government, as well as the hon. Court of Directors, with regard to the said cláims, and have, by means of their agent in London, presented, through the hon. Board of Control, several memorials to the hon. Court of Directors, without being able to receive any reply; and that the claims of the memorialists, at the period of deposing the said Rajah Ameer Sing, or the amount stated to be due to Ameer Sing's creditors in the final report of the said committee, did not exceed one half of one year's revenue of his countries; that the hon. the East India Company have continued, since the deposition of the said Rajah, to collect the revenues of those rich and fertile districts, yielding about ten lacs of pagodas annually; that, in proof of what is stated in this memorial, they refer to the records of the Madras government, in possession of the hon. Court of Directors; and that, although many of the memorialists have been reduced from affluence to the greatest distress, in consequence of having been thus deprived of their property, yet the memorialists have waited without any success for above 14 years, with the utmost patience, the result of their respectful solicitations to the hon. the East India Company; but, as they now despair of obtaining from the hon. Court of Directors of the East India Company that justice to which they are entitled, and which they have so long in vain solicited, they have determined thus to submit their case to the British nation, through their representatives in parliament assembled; and therefore praying, that the House will adopt such measures as will tend to a speedy adjustment of their claims."
Ordered to lie upon the table
Select Committee Appointed On Commercial Credit
rose, in pursuance of his notice, to move for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the state of Commercial Credit. Various representations had reached him from manufacturing and mercantile people, of the disadvantage under which trade suffered, and which they attributed to the state of credit and the condition of the markets with which they were formerly in the habit of communicating. At first he did not believe that the evil prevailed to such an extent as had been stated, but so various were the representations that he now thought it his duty to submit the present motion to the House, that they might ascertain its existence, and provide a remedy as soon as possible. He deprecated all discussion upon this occasion as premature, and recommended that they should wait to have, the advantage of the report. It was his intention, that all the surviving members of the committee which was appointed upon a similar subject, in the year 1793, should be upon the present, and that the number of the whole should be 21. He concluded with moving, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the State of Commercial Credit, and report the same, as it shall appear to them, to the House, together with their opinion and observations thereon." The members proposed were: the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Manning, sir J. Sinclair, Mr. Brogden, sir J. Shaw, Mr. Staniforth, Mr. Irving, Mr. H. Thornton, Mr. Robert Shaw of Dublin, Mr. Dundas, the Lord Advocate of Scotland, Mr. Rose, sir Thomas Baring, Mr. A. Baring, Mr. Sharp, Mr. Long, Mr. Alderman Combe, Mr. Marryatt, sir J. Newport, Mr. Foster, and Mr. C. Ellis.
said, he hoped that the committee would be permitted to go at large into the subject, in order to trace the cause of the evil.
said, the committee for which he moved, was for the purpose of inquiring into the state of Commercial Credit, not of Public Credit, beyond that it was not his idea that it should go. The committee, he was sure, would not think it advisable to protract their report to any great length, but it would naturally inquire into the causes for the purpose of ascertaining the remedy; and if it found that the evil sprung from public causes, would of course recommend a public remedy. Should that view, however, be taken of the subject, there would be more propriety, he thought, in bringing it before the committee than the House.
hailed the present measure as a step towards the exposure of the bad system upon which the government had acted. He alluded to the new relations with America, and disapproved of the policy of encouraging manufactures to the injury of the agriculture of the country.
thought the chancellor of the exchequer had taken a more correct view of the subject than his right hon. friend. It was better, in his opinion, to confine the inquiry at present to the nature of the measures to be adopted, than to enter upon the causes which have led to those measures. He wished to express, however, no opinion at present of the remedy necessary for the evil; or even an opinion of the possibility of affording any such remedy. He rose to move for the addition of another name to the list. Nothing, he owned, could be more respectable than the names of which that list was composed; but he could not avoid thinking that it would have been better if it had contained fewer commercial members. He thought that, at any rate, the late Secretary to the Treasury should be on the committee, and should therefore move, that the name of Mr. Huskisson be added.
wished to decline the honour of being a member of the committee. He stated the points in which he thought the present distresses resembled, and in which they did not resemble those of 1793. At present there was no interruption to public credit; in 1793 it was otherwise; and at present there was a great spirit of over-trading in the country. He disclaimed having any particular opportunities of information on this subject.
rose to support the motion of the hon. gent. He agreed with the gent, who last spoke, that the present circumstances differed in some cases from those of 1793, and resembled them in others. He thought, however, that should the distresses of the present day be even traced to overtrading, yet if the result of that over-trading had been such as not only to occasion mischief to those who had over-traded, but to those who have not over-traded, the House could have no objection to afford an alleviation, if possible. He had no hesitation in saying, that whatever opinion might be formed of the policy of the Orders in Council, these, on inquiry, would not be found to be the cause of the present commercial distress.
said, that it was not sufficient to induce the House to vote an issue of exchequer bills, to state that numbers of merchants had over-traded themselves. Upon such a report being presented to the House he should not think himself justified in giving his vote. He did not mean to say that under certain circumstances of distress, he might not be willing enough to give assistance; but those circumstances he thought should differ materially from the present. He owned he did not see how a remedy could be afforded to the present evils. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke of the necessity of a speedy report; but he hoped that sufficient time would be taken to make the necessary inquiries, and for this purpose a week, at least, would be necessary. Were he a member of the committee, he would wish to examine a number of merchants on the subject, and enter upon other inquiries, which would all take up a good deal of time. It would be proper for the House to know what was the state of the present distress, what had produced that state, and what was likely to be the duration of that state: and it would be foolish to give issues of Exchequer bills at present, if at the end of a twelvemonth the evil should still continue.
should certainly think the committee were going beyond their duty, were they to enter upon so large a field of investigation as the right hon. gent, would force upon them. To what extent the House might think fit to go into the ultimate and proximate causes of the subject, was another consideration but it was the Committee's duty to inquire into the nature of the present distress. The House would consider the degree and extent of the distress, and whether it Was advisable to afford a remedy.
observed, that from the narrow description of the investigation proposed, he apprehended the qualities for which his hon. friend had been stated to be particularly distinguished, were not necessary, especially if it was intended that the report should be speedily laid on the table. The qualities alluded to would only have been of essential advantage, if the committee were about to inquire not only into the immediate but into the remote causes of the present state of commercial credit. He therefore thought it would be better to leave the names as originally moved.
expressed his surprise that the right hon. gent, should have spoken as if he had fallen into some impropriety in naming the hon. gent, near him as a member of this committee, and an impropriety which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had avoided. This was extraordinary, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had immediately assented the moment the hon. gent, had been named; He had never doubled but the hon. gent. would have been willing to have given his services upon the committee; services which, in his view of the case, would be of great utility. It appeared to hire that this would be an operation of finance I founded on a commercial difficulty; and it was important, even with a view to the proximate causes of that difficulty, that some person, accustomed to the operations of finance, should be on the spot. Although he was sorry that the services of the hon. gent, on this committee should be lost, yet as he was averse to become one of the members, he certainly would not press his motion.
moved as an amendment, That after the word 'credit', the words and trade of the united kingdom' be inserted.
thought upon the whole, that it would be better to defer the consideration of the more extended subject, until the narrower was decided, and the report of the committee brought up.
preferred the original words. He did not wish that the great political question should be submitted to the committee.
The amendment was negatived without a division.
then moved another amendment, that the word 'thereupon' should be left out, for the purpose of introducing the words 'the causes that produced the same.'
thought the words, as they originally stood, expressed the meaning sufficiently, and of course that the amendment was unnecessary.
said, the Committee should not be permitted to go into the political question, as it would only have the effect of rendering the real question referred to them, ambiguous.
The amendment was negatived as before.
took it for granted that the object was to inquire into the stale of trade only so far as this was connected with the means of giving relief. To answer this purpose, the original motion was sufficiently well expressed. The amendment proposed would lead into too large a field. The first part of the amendment, that the committee should inquire into the state of the trade of the united kingdom, was then put and negatived. The question being upon the latter part, that the committee should report on the cause that produced the same.
observed, that the right hon. gent, had surely fallen into some mistake. Was it meant that there should be an inquiry into the causes that produced commercial credit?
—No into the causes of the present state of commercial credit.
—Even in that sense it was too large, and would carry the duties of, the committee much beyond what any, one appeared to have in view.
concurred with the last speaker, that the words of the amendment were too large—and that the inquiry ought to be confined to the state of trade, so far as this was connected with the mean" of relief.
The latter part of the amendment was also negatived, and the motion, as originally worded, agreed to without a division.
Upon the reading of the names of the members for the committee,
stated, that in his opinion there were too many commercial men proposed, 13 out of the 21 being of that description, and thereby constituting a majority of the whole. The remaining names, too, were chiefly those connected with the right hon. gent, in office. The right hon. gent, seemed to hold out, that he had at first rather turned a deaf ear to the representations on this subject, and whether he was a convert to the opinions contained in these representations, or had brought forward the subject on account of the number of applications, and the respectability of the quarters from whence they came, he had not mentioned. But if the commerce of the country was in an embarrassed state, and it was clear that it was, this committee was improperly constituted. That there ought to be some Commercial men, was certain; but that they must have a strong bias to recommend the granting of relief, even though it might be doubtful to others whether such a measure would be proper, he thought self-evident, and therefore they ought not to constitute a majority. He was surprised that the name of Mr. Huskisson had not been originally proposed, and surprised that there should be any objection on his part when he was last mentioned. He hyped some other names would be proposed. The commercial majority was objectionable in the first place, and almost the whole of the vest would be under a vote for any measure of relief which the Chancellor of the Exchequer might have already suggested.
stated, that he had taken the principal merchants from both sides of the House—persons best acquainted with the subject, and at the same time not likely to be so much affected as less eminent traders, by the present depressed state of commerce. He had no objection, however, to some more names, though it was desirable that the committee should not be too numerous.
objected to the constitution of the committee, on the same grounds as Mr. Whitbread.
stated, that every commercial man who had expressed a doubt as to the expediency of giving relief, had been named for the committee.
disclaimed any other objection to a majority of commercial men than this, that they would be, from the nature of the case, acting under an undue bias.
proposed that Mr. D. Giddy be added to the committee, but nobody seconded the motion.—The committee was therefore appointed as originally constituted, with the usual powers.