report-ed from the Committee, to whom the petition of William Henry Mallison was referred, and who were empowered to report the same, with their observations and opinion thereupon, to the House, together with the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them; That they had examined the matter of the petition; and had directed him to report the same, with several resolution thereupon, to the House; and the resolutions of the Committee were read as follows: Resolved, "That it is the opinion of this Committee, That the application of cork, after the mode invented by Mr. Mallison, is effectual for the preservation of persons in the water; and it appears from the evidence taken, that experiments have been made as well by persons who could swim as by those who could not, in the open sea and in rough water, and by one person in particular, a good swimmer, in a situation of uncommon peril, all of which have been quite successful. 2. That the application of the invention to the crews of boats going off from ships to shore or returning in stormy weather, would be exceedingly useful, and on all dangerous services of the same nature, especially as the use of the invention cannot materially impede the action of the limbs either in rowing, walking, or making any necessary exertion on the beach, and the Committee have no doubt that in many dreadful disasters which have happened, such as fire or foundering of ships at sea, when in company with other vessels (as in the instances of the Prince George, admiral Brodrick's ship, in the seven years war, and the Queen Charlotte, not many years since in the Mediterranean), if a quantity of the Seaman's Friend, invented by Mr. Mallison, had been on board, many valu- able lives would have been saved. 3. That the invention of Mr. Mallison is well deserving of public attention."

moved, to refer the Petitions of the weavers of Lancashire (see p. 339) to the consideration of a Select Committee, He expatiated on the hardships to which the Petitioners were subject, and on the policy as well as humanity of endeavouring to afford them relief. From all the information which he had been able to collect, this numerous class of individuals was in a most deplorable situation; and such was their poverty, that they were compelled to bring up their children in complete ignorance, from their inability to afford them education.

supported the motion.

said, it was impossible not to feel the greatest disposition to give to the request of the Petitioners every attention which could be conducive to their relief; but, after the most deliberate consideration of the case, he apprehended that it was impossible to hold out to them any expectation of a favourable nature, without exposing them to the certainty of disappointment. He had seen several persons intimately connected with the Petitioners, who had made strong representations to him with regard to the distresses which they experienced; but he found that the remedy, at which they aimed, consisted of regulations in the trade that could not be acceded to, without the production of the greatest inconveniences. They wished for regulations respecting the persons to be admitted into their trade; for regulations respecting the number of apprentices to be allowed; and, in short, for such restraints, as, however they might tend to their immediate relief, must ultimately prove extremely injurious, both to the individual in question and to the trade of the country at large. For himself, he could see no advantage in referring the subject to the consideration of a Committee, as he was persuaded that such a step would merely cherish a fallacious expectation in the minds of those who were concerned. At the same time, if there were any gentlemen who took a different view of the subject, and who could present to the House a probable prospect that the appointment of a Com- mittee might lead to any thing advantageous to the Petitioners in their present distressed state, he should be very sorry to oppose the motion. If, therefore, any gentleman could point out to the House a reasonable ground for supposing that; a different result might be expected on an investigation of the subject, from that which had followed a similar inquiry at two or three former periods, he entreated the House to listen to such a statement, and if they thought it well founded, to adopt the motion of the bon gentleman. If, on the other hand, no probable ground could be made out for the expectation of a favourable result to the inquiry of a Committee, he would ask, Where would be the advantage (except that of an immediate relief to the feelings of the House) of encouraging expectations, which must inevitably lead to the disappointment of those, whose existing distresses were already but too apparent?

strongly recommended the appointment of a Committee, to take into consideration the melancholy case of the Petitioners. He conceived it possible, that without consuming much time, such a Committee might discover some mode of affording relief, and he declared that the happiest day of his life would be that in which he should join in such a labour. Many of the persons who were now suffering such distress, would soon, he feared, be employed by the rivals of Great Britain; for it was not to be expected that they could long endure the privations to which they were at present subject, without an attempt to obtain relief; and it was evident that Buonaparté and those who were at the head of other countries, anxious to emulate Great Britain in manufactures, would do all they could to induce our manufacturers to emigrate to those countries. If their miseries could be alleviated by the application from the public purse of a sum of money, however moderate, it might enable them to struggle with misfortune, and would at least afford them time to ascertain whether they must be compelled to betake themselves to other occupations, or whether it was probable that their own trade would so far revive as to afford them the means of support.

thought it was too hard upon those who were for the appointment of a Committee, to point out the mode by which the Petitioners might be relieved. This must be the result of an examination. Unquestionably several ideas on this sub- ject had occurred to his mind, although he should be sorry then to throw them out, as if afterwards they should be found impracticable, the mention of them at that moment would but embitter disappointment. There was one consideration, however, which, in his opinion, the House would do well to entertain, and that was, whether if, on a minute investigation, it should be declared by the Committee that no relief could be afforded, such a declaration would not be received by the Petitioners with more temper and moderation than any immediate and peremptory negative to enter at all into an examination of their grievances.

declared that what the right hon. gent. had said was decisive upon the subject. His right hon. friend had stated, that if a single individual intimated that he conceived relief could be afforded to the petitioners, he should have no objection to the appointment of a Committee. The right hon. gent. opposite having said that several modes by which relief might possibly be afforded had occurred to his mind, he trusted therefore, that there would be but one opinion in the House on the propriety of appointing a Committee. Still, however, he wished to make two or three observations on the subject: a representation similar to the present had been referred to a select Committee three years ago. That Committee had been very constantly and very numerously attended. The subject had undergone the most patient discussion, and the result was, that the Committee were unanimously of opinion that nothing could be done for the persons aggrieved. No one, not even those who resided in the immediate neighbourhood of the petitioners, could be more convinced of their distress than he was. For four or five years he had held a correspondence with them and he had always cautioned them against cherishing the expectation of legislative assistance. The hon. bart, talked of granting them a sum of money. A similar recommendation had been made to him by one of the deputies of the petitioners, with whom he had lately had a conference.—That person mentioned a hundred thousand pounds as a sum that might be serviceable to the petitioners; but as in the same breath he estimated the number of sufferers at five hundred thousand, the House would judge how far such a sum could be available to an evil so extensive. Many misapprehensions had gone abroad as to former circumstances connected with this subject. Among others it had been said, that Mr. Pitt on a former occasion had laid out 200,000l. or 300,000l. of the public money, in the purchase of goods, for the relief of the manufacturers. Nothing could be more unfounded. The possibility of a minimum of wages, of a limitation in the number of apprentices, &c. &c. were all points that were discussed and determined in the Committee to which he had already alluded. In his opinion, it was impossible to devise any method by which effectual relief could be afforded to those persons who had suffered so much and so patiently. There was no description of individuals in the country better entitled to the consideration and favour of the House, if any man living could point out a mode by which they might be benefited.

trusted, that the House would enquire into the distresses of the petitioners with a patient attention. Their petitions were such as it was becoming them to present, and their appeal was made to the generosity and liberality of the House. The sons and brothers of many of the persons whose names were signed to these petitions were shedding their blood in the cause of their country; but even their conduct was not more meritorious than the peaceable behaviour of the petitioners under their sufferings. He hoped, therefore, that the House would, by agreeing to the motion, shew that they were ready to enquire whether any relief could possibly be afforded to them.

had attended all the Committees which had enquired into this subject since he had the honour of a seat in that House, and the conviction upon his mind was, that no human ingenuity could devise the relief required. When the last report was made, he felt this impression so strongly, that he had given notice of his intention to oppose any motion for laying such petitions in future on the table. But still, as it might be better to agree to the present motion, than to reject the application in a peremptory manner, though he expected no benefit to result from the proceeding, he should consent to go into the Committee, under the impression that it might tend to soothe the feelings of a very meritorious class of subjects.

observed, that as it seemed to be admitted on all hands that an investigation into the distresses of the petitioners, with a view to ascertain what practicable relief could be afforded them, ought to take place, the only question was, what that relief was to consist of. It had happened to him to know, that in a small district in the country, with which he was more particularly connected, distresses such as those complained of by the petitioners had been very severely felt. He knew, also, that these distresses had been in a great degree relieved by the measures taken by humane individuals, and the voluntary exertions of those who had the means of assisting towards that object. The relief thus afforded had been productive of highly beneficial consequences. It might be right that the Committee should Consider how far relief, such as that he referred to, could be applicable to the case of the petitioners. He wished, however, not to be understood to say, that the precise mode of relief, which had been found so serviceable in a small district, would be equally beneficial if resorted to for the relief of the large bodies of manufacturers whose distressing case was then under consideration.

agreed with the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that unless some practical relief was likely to result from the adoption of the motion, they would by agreeing to go into the Committee only excite expectations which would afterwards be disappointed. He for one should object to any relief by a grant of money. The distress was general amongst persons connected with the commerce of the country; and if any enquiry was to be instituted at all, he thought that the Committee should be appointed to examine into the general system of the commerce of the country; and to ascertain whether there was any thing radically wrong in that system to which the distresses of the manufacturing classes could be ascribed. This point had been adverted to in the petitions, where the distresses of the manufacturing classes were in part attributed to the state of our relations with America. The trade with America was that of which alone the enemy could not possibly have deprived this country. He should not, then, assert, whether it might not have been possible so to have regulated our politics, as to have maintained amicable relations and commercial intercourse with America; but, certain he was, that the situation in which we stood with respect to America was that in which the enemy would most desire to see us placed. He thought, also, that if the enquiry could be entered into, with any prospect that the House would sit long enough to allow of its being conducted to any beneficial result, the system of granting licences, which had been so much cried up, should at the same time be investigated. This was the only measure that could be looked to for any satisfactory consequence: but perceiving that the feelings of the House were in favour of going into the Committee, he should not press upon this point farther.

thought, that, as the hon. brat, opposite had stated it as his opinion that it would be gratifying to the feelings of the petitioners to accede to this motion, that consideration alone ought to be sufficient to weigh with the House. He was decidedly of opinion, that any grant of money ought to be deprecated; but he thought that the relief might be rendered effectual, if the manufacturers should be enabled to send the articles on their hands to a market not now accessible to them. He threw out this suggestion for the information of the House generally, because he knew that a measure of the description he alluded to had been successfully adopted in a case of similar distress in Ireland. At all events, by going into the Committee they would shew the petitioners, that they were ready to do every thing in their power for their relief.

was fully aware of the danger of exciting, by agreeing to the motion, expectations which might afterwards be disappointed; but there was one circumstance which made him of a decided opinion upon this occasion. He would agree to a going into the Committee, lest their motives should be misinterpreted—lest, if they refused to agree to, the motion, it should be supposed that they were not aware of the extent of the distress. The amount of that distress they could not so clearly ascertain without entering into a grave and solemn enquiry: and, if it should unfortunately, after such enquiry, be found, that no practicable mode of relief could be devised, he wished it, at all events, to be clearly understood by the sufferers, that every attention had been paid to their claims in that House; and that the evil they complained of was not redressed solely because it was beyond the power of that House to remove it. He thought it particularly desirable, that it should be well understood from the first, that they entered into the enquiry not from any certainty of being able to afford the relief applied for, but with a view to ascertain whether it was in the power of that House to grant any relief whatever.

would object to the Committee being authorized to report anything but facts. The House would recollect what inconvenience they and the public had sustained from having had to debate a question for seven days arising out of a committee of last session having exceeded its powers. He wished to avoid a similar inconvenience in a future session, and should not therefore consent to give any powers to this Committee, but to report facts.

moved the order of the day for resuming the adjourned Debate upon the motion, "That a Committee be appointed to inquire into the causes that retard the Decision of Suits in the High Court of Chancery."

observed, that having on a former occasion stated to the House the reasons that induced him to think that the motion of his hon. and learned friend should be agreed to, he had then to inform the House, that nothing had since occurred to make him alter the opinion he before expressed. The Report, which was then expected from the Committee of the House of Lords, had since been communicated to that House, and appeared to him to contain nothing to prevent the House from going into the Committee moved for by his hon. friend. The measure proposed, of appointing another judge to assist the Lord Chancellor in his Court, he consi- dered of such importance, that he thought it impossible it could be carried into effect at so late a period of the session, when so thin an attendance was to be expected in both Houses of Parliament. An alteration in the constitution of the court, which would be productive of the most serious consequences, required the most assiduous attention of both Houses. He had many personal reasons for wishing to abstain from giving any opinion on this question; but considerations of public duty obliged him to deliver his sentiments upon it. The first novelty of the measure was, that it would establish a judge in the Court of Chancery, who should not have to try original causes, but merely to decide upon appeals. That was an experiment, which no man who knew any thing of a Court of Equity, would think ought to be lightly hazarded. The whole system of Equity in this country was founded on the decisions of successive chancellors from lord Nottingham down to the present time; and it was necessary that those who had to administer the equity laws of this country should be in the constant habit of deciding original causes in the court of chancery. If the duties of the lord chancellor were too great for him to perform, it would be better to separate from his office the duties of the Speaker of the House of Lords, or the decision of Bankrupt cases, though he saw considerable objection to either, than to take from him the decision of original causes, and that jurisdiction which constituted the very essence of his office. He knew it might be said, that to separate bankrupt cases from the jurisdiction of the lord chancellor, would diminish his emoluments too much. He did not think it would; bat even if it should, that ought not to stand in the way for a moment of an arrangement necessary for the public interest. He was utterly astonished at the meagre information supplied in the Report from the Lords' Committee. It stated only what business had been done in the ten latter years of lord Hardwicke, and in the ten last years; but it gave no information whatever as to the business which had not been gone through, nor as to the causes of the delays. It appeared by the report, that from the year 1745 to 1755 the number of original causes decided was 1633; in the last 10 years the number was 570. It did not appear, however, that the business of the court of Chancery had increased of late: but it would be an unjust inference to make from the statement in the report, that the business had actually diminished. The only way in which he could, account for the business not having increased, was, that many points, which were doubtful in lord Hardwicke's time, had since been settled. The increase of motions was double, but that was no proof that the business was doubled. He hoped if he was wrong in any of the causes which he had stated, that his learned friend opposite would set him right. He regretted much that there were none of those learned gentlemen present who, from their practice in the Court, would have been adequate to decide on this subject; perhaps, however, it might not be convenient to them to attend. He considered, however, that his public duty was so imperative that it ought to supersede all private convenience. From all the consideration which he could give to the subject, he thought that a temporary remedy was best adapted to the occasion; and he believed in his conscience that if a Commission to assist the Chancellor was appointed, all the arrears in the Court would be disposed of in the course of a year. He voted for the Committee.

said, that they had now before them an account from the Lords, of the causes which had led to the suspension of justice in their House and in the Court of Chancery. In order to obviate the inconvenience in consequence of this, they had entered into a regulation to devote, after this session, a longer attendance to the hearing of causes. There now appeared to be 338 Appeal Causes in arrear. Their lordships had proposed, then, to give up three days in the week, from ten in the morning, till a great number of those arrears were discharged, and two days a week afterwards till they had disposed of them entirely. Many causes had concurred to a delay this session, which were not among the natural or average causes of delay, and therefore could not be considered as likely soon to occur again. He had only to instance the great time which was necessarily occupied in the consideration of the Banbury and Berkeley peerage causes. It had naturally occurred to their lordships, that if they were to sit for the consideration of Writs of Error at ten in the morning, that, of course, a deficiency must occur in the Court of Chancery. They then, in order to remedy this, suggested the creation of an additional judge in the Equity Court, which situation the new judge was to hold during his good behayiour, and not during pleasure. His hon. and learned friend seemed to doubt that Chancery business had encreased during late years. He owned he was very much surprised at this doubt, after hearing the statement that motions in that court had so multiplied. It had, however, been mentioned, either by his hon. and learned friend or by the hon. and learned gent, who moved for the Committee, as one of his great reasons for doing so, that the business of Chancery was so much encreased, that if a cause was now set down in the list, many year? might elapse before a final judgment could be pronounced on it. From all he had heard, indeed, he was inclined to believe, that a very great increase of business had taken place in that court. He knew very well that many of the motions which lately occurred were motions of course; but he knew also from the statement submitted by the House of Lords, that there were many of a different description. For the ten years before the last there were 57,000 motions and 2,700 petitions; during the last ten years there were bat 37,000 motions and 1,663 petitions. With respect to the measure which might be proposed by the Lords, he thought it much better to wait until their Bill came down, and then would be the proper time to discuss it. After what had been said, however, he must in fairness declare, that it was possible he should be for passing the Bill this session; but still of course, if delay was necessary to the adoption of a wise and proper remedy, no ill-advised expedition should thwart-so desirable an object. As they had the chief cause of the arrears in the Court of Chancery already before them, he should vote against the appointment of a Committee.

denied that there was in the statement of the Lords one single satisfactory reason for the delay of justice in the Court of Chancery. The right hon. gent. had said, that the number of motions which had of late been made, might account for the delay. What was the reason, however, of the increase of motions? Why simply, because the attorney or client in a cause could not get the opinion of the court directly on the cause itself; they were glad to come at it by a sidewind, in the way of a motion. Those motions, then, were the effect of the delay, and not the cause. The way proposed, however, to get rid of all these inconveniences, was by the appointment of a third judge; and the right hon. gent. would have the House wait for the Bill from the Lords before they came to a determination. But how were they to determine unless they enquired? or, how was it to be expected that a Bill was to get a fair consideration which would most probably not come down until there were not fifty members in town to consider it? He was aware, that much extra business came before the court this last year, in consequence of the numerous bankruptcies; but he hoped the right hon. gent. did not mean so to govern the country as that he should calculate upon a similar recurrence of failures in future. As to the creation of a third judge, in his opinion it would rather go to encrease the delay than remedy it; because the Chancellor being the supreme judge in the court, every suitor had a light at last to claim his final opinion, which would be thus removed a step by the intervention of an intermediate jurisdiction, between him and the Master of the Rolls. In his opinion, however, the expedition of justice in the Court of Chancery depended, in a great degree, on the Chancellor himself. If the Chancellor was a man of knowledge and talents, and of a proper constitution of mind to decide on the causes, then the delay would not take place. Whether this was the case with the present Chancellor, or not, he would leave to others to determine. The delay in the Court of Chancery necessarily brought on the increase of appeals in the House of Lords; for where suitors imagined they could get any thing by delay, they naturally had recourse to it in any way in which they could. He was quite clear that this was a temporary evil, and ought therefore only to have a temporary remedy. At all events, the one which had been proposed could have no other effect than to aggravate and increase the existing inconvenience.

said, that his experience in the Court of Chancery, for twenty two years, had led him to conclude; that the business of that court had greatly increased; and hence, in part, originated the delay complained of. With the Report of the Lords before the House, the proposed enquiry appeared to him ill-timed and improper, and the House ought to suspend their opinion till the measure proposed by their lordships came before them in the shape of a Bill. He paid some high compliments to the talents of the present Lord Chancellor, who was equally distinguished for his enlarged comprehension of the principles of equity and for his practical knowledge of the business of his court.

entered into an examination of the Report which had been received from the other House of Parliament. The measure of creating another Master of the Rolls would not diminish the business of the Chancellor: it would only increase the number of appeals, for the suitors would be anxious to repair to the last resort, while it would impose a new expence on the public, and give the crown additional patronage. The Court of Chancery, as now constituted, was competent to the dispatch of all its business. What was to hinder the Master of the Roils, for instance, from sitting at the same time with the Chancellor? At present he only sat in the evening. The Report of the Lords, though it stated the number of appeals from Scotland, was extremely defective in not stating how many were received every year, and how many were decided. He knew this fact, that at the time of the union with Ireland, he was employed as counsel in the very last case of appeal that then stood on the roll; and now they were multiplied to the number of 260.

rose to reply. He observed, that after the unanswerable arguments which his hon. friends had advanced in support of his motion, it would be intruding on the House, were he to occupy much more of their time. The delay in the dispatch of business could not admit of a doubt, and the House of Commons, who were the guardians of public justice, were now called upon to investigate whether those evils were owing to temporary causes, or to some radical defect in the nature and constitution of the tribunal itself? This was all he now asked of them to do. But it had been asserted, that the great increase of business had produced the delay complained of. He denied that there had been any sufficient evidence to prove the actual increase of business. The Report before them did not justify any such issue. It did not follow from any part of that Report, that the business had increased to such a degree as to require an additional judge. The arrear was, no doubt, enormous; but were they sure that the appointment of an additional judge would have the effect of expediting the dispatch of business? He thought, on the contrary, that it would rather contribute to retard it; because the great majority of suitors would not rest finally contented with the hearing given their respective causes by the additional judge, and would bring it to be reheard before the Chancellor himself; so that the obvious effect resulting from that appointment would be, that most cases would be twice heard. If there was no other reason for going into the Committee, he thought it to be a conclusive one, the necessity of ascertaining the causes of the delay which, as yet could have been presumed only, and not discovered after a fair and patient investigation—and if they did not know the cause of the evil, he did not know how they could remedy it If, however, the appointment had been resolved upon, and that the House would be called upon to join in making it, he trusted that it would not be hurried into premature adoption at the close of a session. The appointment now could be only an additional expence to the public, without any additional good. The reason of this was obvious. That House, in all human probability, would not sit many weeks longer; when the parliament was prorogued the Lord Chancellor would of course be relieved from his attendance on his duties in the House of Lords; but the object of appointing an additional judge avowedly was to enable the Chancellor to give more of his attendance to the business before the House of Lords. When therefore that House was no longer sitting, the additional judge would not be wanting, and consequently, his appointment before the next session would be an unnecessary addition to the expences of the public.—The appeals now before the House of Lords were numerous beyond all precedent: there were at present not less than 296 appeals, exclusive of writs and Writs of Error. The Report then proposed that the Lord Chancellor should be enabled to devote as much time as possible to the hearing of those appeals: but what were three days in the week to get through such an arrear of business? at the utmost, he could not dispose of more than two appeals a week, which would be at the rate of about thirty or forty appeals in the course of the year; and would it be pretended for a moment that a remedy that could do nothing more than this, offered any effectual relief to the equity suitor? It was really telling him in so many words to be patient, and that perhaps his cause would come to a hearing in five or six years. In the times of lord Thurlow and lord Rosslyn, he did not believe that there had been a single arrear; it was so in the commission at which lord chief justice Eyre was at the head. As to the Report, he could not help saying, that he thought it one of the flimsiest and most jejune compositions he had ever seen. He defied any man in that House who opposed his present motion, to say, that it was a composition to which, on account of the unskilful and unprofessional manner it had been drawn up, he could wish to set his name. There was not a single reason specified for any one opinion it professed, or observation it had made, neither was there any cause assigned for the evils complained of—upon such a document he could not see how they were bound to take every thing for granted that had been thus vouched for by the Lords. The House of Commons was bound to hear and decide for itself upon the greatest question that that could come before them, namely, to ascertain the cause of the delay of justice—the Chancellor had been petitioned over and over again to hear causes where the parties were rotting in a gaol, but no remedy was in his power; ought not parliament to seek for one? He trusted that the Bill, however, would not come down to them that session. He strongly deprecated so serious a measure as that of changing the nature and constitution of the Court of Chancery, at the end of a session, by a vote of the House of Commons not amounting perhaps to more than fifty members. Why not a Commission? This was a question to which he in vain sought for an answer. A new judge might have nothing to do. He remembered, though it was now some time since he had the honour of practising at the bar—but he remembered, when the Chancellor did every thing and the masters nothing. If hey would relieve the Chancellor from some part of his heavy duties, why not separate from his office that part which had not originally belonged to it But the truth was, he feared, that the profits of the commission were found 10 be too great to be very readily given up. Was the public to pay for this new Master of the Rolls? Why, then, not first ascertain the real emoluments of the Chancellor, and how those emoluments arose out of his labours? if of those labours there were some which he could not discharge, for such n was to be presumed he could not reasonably expect to be paid. Whatever part of the office he could not fill, of that part he ought not to receive the emoluments.—He had now only to call upon the House, which he did most earnestly, to pause before they agreed to pass the Bill coming down to them. This was no question of party politics, and yet, such was the fascination in going with the minister, that the very persons who had most zealously urged him to the prosecution of the present motion were those who were now most averse to it.

also moved, that it be an instruction to the Committee to examine into all the fees and emoluments taken by the Lord Chancellor in his jurisdiction of Chancellor, as well as in bankruptcy proceedings.

thought that this point would be a subject of enquiry with the Committee now sitting on public offices. The instruction appeared, therefore, unnecessary and exceptionable.

believed, that the business of that Committee was to enquire into the profits of sinecure offices; and the office of Chancellor could never be considered as a sinecure. If another person was employed to relieve the Chancellor, it was but fit to consider whether that person should be paid by him who was relieved, or by the public. The enquiry, therefore, into the fees and emoluments of office was very necessary.

believed, that the powers of the Committee on sinecure offices did not extend to the office of Chancellor. There were some officers about the Chancellor who held sinecure situations, and received large fees, part of which went to the Chancellor. Into these offices the Committee on Sinecures could examine, but not into the emoluments of the Lord Chancellor.

declined pressing his opposition, and the motion was agreed to.

rose to propose a Vote of Credit, to the extent of which, he believed, there would be no objections, as it was the same that was granted last year. He should therefore move, That the sum of three millions be granted to his Majesty, as a Vote of Credit, to enable him to take such measures as may be necessary to defeat any enterprizes or designs of his enemies, and as the exigency of affairs may require.

said, that he should not have offered any observations on the present motion, if he had an expectation that other opportunities would occur before the prorogation, of stating to the House what appeared to him to be of great importance with respect to the interests of the country. It appeared to him that there could no longer be any doubt whether our commercial warfare with Europe and with America had or had not been successful. He was sure that this question was settled beyond all doubt in the minds of the suffering manufacturers, whose petitions had been that day before the House, and whose claims the Chancellor of the Exchequer had very reluctantly allowed to go a Committee. It had been already passed as a resolution by that House, "that since the year 1806, and particularly from the beginning of the year 1807, a system of proscription had been exercised by France which greatly diminished our exports to the continent." As far, then, as regarded the policy of this country with respect to Europe, it appeared, even from the resolution of that House, that the policy of this country had failed; and that the line of policy which France had adopted, as contrasted with our policy, and considered with respect to the objects which the enemy openly avowed, had been fully successful. With respect to America, also, the House had resolved, "that the intercourse with that country was uncertain and interrupted." It must be recollected, that a few years ago we had been told by the authors and advocates of the Orders in Council, that the trade with America would not be muck affected by them; that trade would force its own way; that America would soon see her true interests; and that our intercourse with that country would remain undiminished. America, at that time, told this country, that if she persisted in orders so contrary to the rights of independent nations, she would suspend the intercourse between the two countries. The authors of our Orders in Council anticipated no evils from this measure; but the distresses of our manufacturers now clearly proved that great evils had resulted from it, and that the loss of the American market had been severely felt in this country. No man attempted to deny the sufferings of our manufacturers, or to say that they were overstated in their petitions. Their misery was sufficiently well known to the world, and the only reason alleged for not going into a Committee was the impossibility of giving them any substantial relief. If the enquiry should, however, now take place, he hoped that it might still be possible to prevail upon ministers to retrace their steps with respect to America, and to reopen that market to our exports. We had been often told, that it was impossible to repeal those Orders in Council, until the French decrees should have been repealed. If, however, the Berlin and Milan decrees were now actually repealed, why not repeal the Orders in Council? If there were doubts whether the French had really repealed those decrees or not, should not some experiment be made to learn whether they were sincere or not? When it had been in the power of ministers to put this matter to the test, it appeared to him, that a noble lord (the marquis Wellesley) had shewn a dilatoriness, and a negligence of conduct, which was quite astonishing. In his negociations with the American ambassador, he appeared to shew a considerable degree of inattention. The American minister had left the country; the negociations had completely broken off, and must recommence when Mr. Foster should arrive in America. The communications between the two governments had now been published by America, and he could conceive no other reason for having denied them to the House of Commons but merely to gain time. He could not avoid feeling very sincere regret, that a minister of such talents and such temper as Mr. Pinckney should have left the country. There never was a minister whose patience and forbearance had been more put to trial than Mr. Pinckney's, and he thought that it would be hardly possible to find a negociator equal to him, not only for supporting the interests of his own country, but for discussing with fairness the points which were disputed between the two countries. The course of the communications respecting the revocation of the French decrees was this: on the 25th of August, Mr. Pinckney communicated to the marquis Wellesley the revocation, expressing an expectation that the Orders in Council would be revoked also. The receipt of this letter was not acknowledged until the 31st of August. On the 12th of October, the British merchants applied to the Board of Trade to know whether the Orders in Council would be revoked in consequence of the revocation of the French decrees. The vice president professed entire ignorance of the revocation on the part of France, and advised the merchants to call on the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That minister was then out of town; and no communication having been made to the merchants by the 9th of November, they, on that day, presented another memorial, and on the 12th of November, lord Bathurst saw the committee of merchants, and expressed a doubt of the decrees being really revoked by France, and a wish for some practical proof of it. The Committee immediately offered, as a way of obtaining this practical proof, to send off to France a rich American ship, which lay off Mother-bank, if she could obtain protection from the admiralty cruisers. This offer was refused. On the 19th the Committee saw lord Wellesley, who expressed himself to the same effect as lord Bathurst had done. They offered to him the same means of obtaining a practical proof, and were again refused. What could be more strange than that ministers, after having always professed that their Orders in Council should only subsist while the French decrees were in force, should yet neither take any measures themselves to ascertain whether the revocation was real or not, but should refuse the practical proof when offered by the merchants. It appeared as if ministers were afraid to give up their darling object. Lord Wellesley, however, said, that he would give an answer in a few days. No answer, however, did arrive, and on the 22d of December the merchants presented another memorial; and on the 29th they saw Mr. Hamilton, the Under-secretary, who told them that ministers had no satisfactory proofs of France having actually given up her decrees. They again presented a memorial, on the 12th of January, without any better success. It did appear to him that during all this time lord Bathurst and lord Wellesley had shown gross inattention to* those important interests which were involved in that question. On the 2d of November, the President of the United States published his proclamation, declare- ing that the Berlin and Milan decrees had been revoked. In consequence of this proclamation many vessels cleared out for France from America. Some of those vessels were taken by our cruisers, and the first of them was the Fox, the case of which was highly important, as governing the fate of the other vessels taken under similar circumstances. This vessel, the Fox, was claimed by the American minister on the ground that the French decrees having been repealed, the British Orders in Council ceased of course. To this claim no answer was made; but the king's advocate received a letter to suspend the proceedings until after the departure of Mr. Pinckney and Mr. Foster from this country. Sir William Scott was, however, the other day proceeding to give judgment against the claimants, and only suspended the judgment on its being stated to him that new evidence could be produced of the revocation of the French decrees. This new evidence was the letter of the duke of Bassano to the American Consul, Mr. Russel. Those who first brought forward these Orders in Council did so from the supposition that they would operate in favour of this country; but when they had witnessed the in effects of them, he should have supposed that they would have been glad to escape from them, and would have taken the earliest opportunity of moving for rescinding them. By their licences they had been in the daily habit of violating their own system, and now they seemed to wish to preserve only that part which had been proved to be most prejudicial. All reciprocity of intercourse between this country and America was now at an end. America was ready to send her exports to this country, but not to receive ours in return. Such, too, was our intercourse with France. She allowed us, for her own interest, to purchase from her articles of the first necessity, but she would admit no exports from this country. Ministers had frequently been warned, that their system was attended with this great danger,—that America might be driven to manufacture for herself, and then even if the present misunderstanding should be settled, we should no longer find the market which it was in our power to have retained. Our exports might be encountered in America by domestic regulations made to protect their own manufactures. By a report of the progress of manufactures in America, it appeared that in the year 1810, there had been manufactured in the State of New York alone, above 3 millions of yards of woollen cloth, 5,700,000 yards of linen, and 211,000 of cotton cloth. By this report it was certainly intended to shew America that she could do without England. Ministers appeared to him to have been grossly inattentive to a subject of the highest importance. Whether they expected war or peace, he could not say; but it appeared to him, that commercial war must end in actual war; and that if the Orders in Council were not rescinded, there must soon be conflicts between the vessels of the different countries.—He had already had an opportunity of delivering his opinion respecting the policy of this country towards the States of Europe. He should not hesitate still to say, that he wished the advantage might be taken of the present favourable posture of affairs to try whether peace were practicable or not. He knew that he was charged with being ready to accept any peace at any time: but he trusted that he would be as unwilling as any gentleman to accept of peace on terms that were not honourable for this country. He was ready to pay the warmest tribute of his admiration to the merit which had been displayed by lord Wellington. Nothing which could happen in future could make him retract from that praise which he had given to what lord Wellington had already done: but looking at the many glorious and sanguinary battles which had lately taken place, he saw no ground for confidently anticipating a favourable result to the war. He therefore thought that it was a time that it would be proper to try whether peace might not be obtained on honourable and reasonable terms.—The other points to which he wished to direct the attention of the House was of a nature purely domestic. He could not help thinking, that with respect to the state of his Majesty's health, the country had not been fairly dealt with. Every day, from the 20th of February down to the 25th of May, the public were led to believe, by the Bulletins which were published, that his Majesty was recovering, and would be very soon fit to reassume the reins of government; and yet it now appeared that he was extremely ill, and the public had but little reason to suppose him better than he was many months ago. It appeared to him that there ought to be another examination of the physicians before the session was closed. On the former examina- tion the physicians had said, that in proportion to the duration of the disease was the danger of a relapse. Now, if his Majesty were to recover and should be advised to re-assume his power when parliament was snot sitting, and afterwards relapse, parliament would have in the next session the same tedious and operose machinery to go through again for the purpose of supplying the deficiency in the executive. When from the answers of the physicians it appeared that a relapse would be highly probable, he thought it was evident that some measures ought to be taken to prevent the country from being again for many months without any executive government. He had already given notice of an intention to propose some measure to guard against the recurrence of such a calamity, and he should certainly take an opportunity before the close of the session, of proposing something to that effect.

allowed that on a question of supply every gentle-man had a right to introduce whatever topics he thought proper into the discussion. He trusted, however, that the House would excuse him from going at any length, into the details of the various subjects introduced by the hon. gentleman in the Speech he had just delivered, and be content with such observations as he thought it necessary to make upon the most prominent parts of it. When he submitted the Resolution he had just laid on the table to the consideration of the Committee, he had not entertained the slightest idea that the hon. gent. would go into so wide a field of argument on subjects, some of which, according to notice, he meant to bring forward for distinct and specific matter of debate. He could not, therefore, be supposed to come prepared to answer them fully when thus unexpectedly intoduced. With respect to the commercial question, he could only say, that there was no pretence for stating, in consequence of the petitions which had been alluded to, that the system had failed on our part, and that it had succeeded on the part of France. It was by no means fair to infer, that because certain extraordinary circumstances had happened in the course of the commerce of Europe, our trade and manufactures had alone been injured, and that France had not suffered in as great a proportion. This was a question on which many persons of great authority widely differed; and it was at present certainly undetermined. He for his own part, verily believed, that had we never made our Orders in Council, not a single part of the trade of the continent would have been different from what it now was, but the situation of France would undoubtedly have been far more advantageous, and her commercial concerns more prosperous, had we, as the hon. gentleman seemed to desire and recommend, acquiesced tamely in those decrees, and thereby degraded and debased the country by a sacrifice of its best and dearest rights, the careful maintenance of which had brought us to our present state of glory and comparative prosperity. If we looked to the affairs which had been passing in the Peninsula, we should find, that France, during the last six months, had not been able to pay her armies: on the contrary, we had in all that time never failed to pay ours to the utmost farthing. This was one instance of our superiority and advantage over France, for our trade alone had enabled us to do it; but if we turned our eyes to the general state of distress which pervaded the whole continent of Europe we should find that our own difficulties, great as they unquestionably were, bore but a small proportion to what were experienced abroad. The effects of our Orders in Council were not, as the hon. gent. and others had said, to prevent commerce, but to encourage it and that they had done this one strong proof was, that in addition to his Milan and Berlin Decrees, the tyrant of Europe was obliged to resort to others which condemned our goods to be burnt, in order to get rid of them—those very goods which we had the means of getting into Europe in spite of all his tyranny and vigilance. He believed, indeed, there never was a proceeding which rendered more detestable the despotism of the ruler of France, than that of the above result, flowing altogether from our Orders in, Council. With regard to what had fallen from the hon. gent. as to our commerce with America, he believed that no man in this country ever seriously believed the Milan and Berlin decrees were absolutely repealed. It was true they had been repealed prospectively and conditionally; that was to say, either when Great Britain should give up her orders in council, and also her blockade, which was stated to be a novelty. If we should consent to give, up these, and all the maritime rights on which our present power was founded, then they were to be repealed; or, if we refused to give up our maritime rights, and America should take up arms against us, then they were to stand repealed as to America, but not as to us. Could any man suppose that this country would bear such an idea, or that it would endure any set of ministers who could countenance such degrading proceeding upon such bare and doubtful evidence! The manner in which the intelligence had been brought to us was not to be depended on; it came in such a questionable shape, as would by no means warrant us in repealing our Orders in Council. He hoped the House would not think it necessary that he should answer as to the particular applications made to lord Bathurst or lord Wellesley, or the answers returned; but he knew very well that his Majesty's ministers had never any wish to delay rescinding the Orders in Council, whenever they could be fairly satisfied that the Milan and Berlin decrees had been actually repealed. The hon. gentleman had asked whether he would agree to lay before the House such papers relative to the dispute with America as had not been published by the American government. To this he would answer, that if the hon. gent. had not the whole of them in his possession, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would not consent to produce one, because, in the present state of the negotiation, nothing perhaps might turn out more injurious to the interests of both parties.—The hon. gent. had in the next place proceeded to the state of the Peninsula. On this head the Chancellor of the Exchequer said he gave him credit for a candid retraction of a former opinion; and the praises he bestowed on lord Wellington were highly honourable to his feelings. He could not, however, help thinking, that when the hon. gent. once took, up any gloomy view in the prospective, he was not able easily to get rid of it, or to suffer it to brighten on his vision. Last year the hon. gent. wished every man we had in the Peninsula were at home; and now, after all our late brilliant successes, the hon. gent. had again his doubts as to the final issue of our efforts there. For his own part, he certainly could not venture to predict what would be the ultimate fate of our army in the Peninsula; but our prospects were, in his mind, much better now than they were when the hon. gent last year looked on them with so desponding an eye. He might perhaps from the commencement of our inter- ference have entertained more sanguine hopes of success than many other, but still he thought, as we were now joined by our allies with more spirit and enthusiasm than they at first evinced, and our generals having so repeatedly shewn that they could beat the most celebrated generals and the best disciplined troops of France; we might, without being accused of too much presumption, venture a hope, that our future efforts would not be in vain, and that we might still look forward without fear or dismay.—The hon. gent. had said, he thought we should still keep our eye fixed on peace, but feared the experiment had never been fairly tried. Whether that was the case or not, he would not pretend to decide. The last time it had been tried it was by those of whom the hon. gent. of course could not but think well, and they had tried it so long, that he believed the length to which the negociation was carried, had been universally allowed to have produced the most injurious consequences, not only to this country, but to all who were at that time in alliance with us.—As to the question of his having doubted the power of the House to grant money in the case of Mr. Palmer's claim, and then coming to it a few days afterwards for a vote of credit, he considered the cases to be very different, the one being the disposal of the supply, the other the supply itself.—With regard to the remaining argument respecting the King's health, it was time enough to speak of that when the hon. gentleman should bring forward the subject. All the argument urged for it was, that parliament, in case of the King's recovery, might be improperly prorogued; but there was no more reason to suppose that in this case, than in any other. He was then asked, whether he would have any objection to produce the examination of the physicians before the queen's council. He must confess he saw no reason for it at present, but it was time enough to debate that when the question was regularly brought before the House. Upon the whole, he was glad to find that the hon. gent. had no idea of refusing his assent to the motion, but had availed himself of the opportunity, rather for the purpose of delivering a speech than of obstructing the proceedings of government.

defended the Orders in Council, and the answers given to the merchants by lords Bathurst and Wellesley.

spoke against the Orders in Council. He thought ministers might very safely and properly have rescinded them on the declaration by France to America that the Milan and Berlin decrees had been repealed. It was evident from the conduct of the French government, that Buonaparté was fearful we should think they were repealed, and dreaded our acting accordingly. He (Mr. B.) was of opinion, that if ministers had rescinded the Orders in Council at that time, Buonaparté would have been greatly mortified.

asked the right hon. gent. to judge of the effects of their Orders in Council from the petitions on their table from so many thousands of their hitherto flourishing manufacturers? To consider if there could be found any where a body of men more distressed? If in any situation or in any country, they could find a body of industrious and ingenious men more helpless, or hopeless, than they. Then they might plume themselves on their Orders in Council, but not till then. The Resolution was then put and agreed to.

expressed, on the part of the Catholics of Ireland, some apprehensions as to the security afforded to them by the Bill for the free exercise of their religion, on account of the very few places of Catholic worship in this country. He proposed a clause for appointing Catholic chaplains to the regiments.

contended, that the Catholic soldier had been protected in the exercise of his faith, in consequence of the order of the commander in chief.

was of opinion, the Catholics could not exercise their form of worship in many of the counties of England for want of Priests. He believed that the regiment of Tipperary, composed as they were, nine-tenths of Catholics, would not be secure in their worship.

having the honour to command the regiment alluded to, wished to state, that he had communicated with the officers of his regiment upon the subject, and desired them to state, for the information of the soldiers, the debates upon the measure. The result of that communication was an unanimous desire, on the part of the regiment, to extend their services to England, satisfied that they would experience protection in their worship in the fullest degree.

supported the clause.

considered that the religion of the Catholics was perfectly secure without the clause of the hon. gent. which would not, if adopted, give any additional security.

insisted, that the Bill being compulsory, parliament were bound to insure protection to their religious rights, which the order of the commander in chief did not insure, because that order was revocable at pleasure.

denied that the Bill provided for the exercise of worship by an order of the commander in chief otherwise than as acted upon in Ireland. The right hon. gent. stated, that five or six other regiments, in addition to the Tipperary, had offered their services, convinced that in England they should be perfectly secure.

supported the clause, and Mr. Bankes opposed it.

contended, that the object of the proposed Clause was not the appointment of Roman Catholic chaplains to the several Irish regiments, as was apprehended, but to secure to the Roman Catholic soldier the free exercise of his religious opinions, not only by the permission of attendance, at reasonable times, at the service of his own communion, but to secure him also from a compulsive attendance at the service of the Established Church; and this latter provision he pressed most seriously on the attention of the House, as it militated much stronger against the feelings of Catholics to be compelled to attend such a service, than to be prevented from assisting at their own. The canons of their church; the reserpts of sovereign pontiffs, and the injunctions of their bishops and pastors, were uniformly opposed to their appearance at places of worship of another communion, and these regulations are enforced by the practical censures of their church. If it be contended that Catholics do not complain to their commanding officers, it does not follow that they do not. feel:—complaint on the part of the private soldier, we must be aware, might often expose him to serious difficulties.—The clause moved by his hon. friend was in fact a part of the memorable bill introduced in 1807, by a noble earl (Grey) who now enjoyed a seat in another House, and we know that the only avowed objection taken to that bill was the unlimited extent of a provision to empower his Majesty to grant military commissions to any of his Majesty's liege subjects, who should take and subscribe to the proposed oath and declaration. The enactment in favour of religious freedom of worship was proposed to be secured, not only by permission to the soldier, of whatever religious communion, dissenting from the church of England, to attend, at seasonable times, the public service of his own communion, but also that he should not be compelled to attend the religious service of the establishment; and those provisions were likewise secured by exposing any commissioned officer acting in violation of them, to be suspended or dismissed from his Majesty's service, by the sentence of a court martial.—The hon. baronet said, he wished to be understood as making no complaint that general orders had not been issued on reasonable application made to the proper officer, with a view to obviate the recurrence of such complaints. He knew, indeed, that four such general orders had been issued in the western district alone, by direction of his royal highness the Duke of York. Those general orders, however, had only a temporary operation, otherwise indeed the repetition could not have been urged.—Sir J. H. said he would not take up the time of the House, by adverting particularly to the great mass of testimony he had received on this head, and which was of the most unquestionable authority. He would barely mention, that since the discussion of this question in the present session, although the general orders had been pleaded to an officer commanding in a northern part of the kingdom, he did not think himself competent to grant permission to the Catholic soldiers of his corps to attend their own chapel, without a special recurrence to the general officer commanding the district, and having obtained his sanction, and permission accordingly given, to attend the service of their chapel, they nevertheless were afterwards marched to the established church with the rest of the regiment. It was unpleasant, sir J. H. said, to state in the House the names of the officers acting under the same influence of habitual practice, but he had no objection to state the several facts, and the authority on which they stood, to his Majesty's ministers.^*

^*Sir J. H. immediately after his speech communicated several letters, &c. to Chancellor of the Exchequer on this subject.

said, that the facts respecting the Roman Catholic chaplains, had been much misconceived. Those chaplains who were appointed to the four regiments of Irish brigade, on the Irish establishment, were commissioned in consequence of a particular provision of the legislature, authorizing the reception of those corps, the officers and men being wholly Catholics, into his Majesty's service. The case of the Glengary regiment, which he had repeatedly mentioned in that House, was very differently circumstanced—it was a regiment raised in Great Britain, and under the ordinary provisions of the Mutiny Act; yet his Majesty's ministers did not scruple to recommend the appointment of a Roman Catholic priest as chaplain to that regiment, whose commission was signed by his Majesty, and gazetted in 1794.—This fact is the more remarkable, as in 1798 the law officers of the crown gave their official opinion, "that advising his Majesty to grant a commission to a Roman Catholic, is a misdemeanor which may be the subject of parliamentary animadversion, supposing it not to be an offence directly punishable by any proceeding in the ordinary courts of justice." In the present instance, in the Irish militia regiments not avowedly and exclusively Catholic, though a very great majority were of this description, unquestionably it would be a very conciliating measure, to countenance the use of a small tract, or manual of devotion, which had been expressly drawn up, by the authority of the Roman Catholic prelate of the London district, and recommended to the use of the Catholics serving in the fleets and armies of Great Britain. An ardent hope was expressed, in the introduction to that work, that, by the authority of the legislature, and a just attention to the conscientious feelings of so numerous a body of his Majesty's subjects, Roman Catholic seamen and soldiers, they would be exempted, by law, from attending the service of the established church; and also, that they might be assembled in some convenient place, with the permission of their officers, and some one among them selected to read the form of prayer indicated in the manual. The general injunctions introduced in this little tract, as applying to the duties of allegiance, as well as social conduct towards those of a different communion, and particularly the explanation of the doctrines and practice of confession and absolution, are points certainly worthy of reference, especially as they are continually misrepresented, and most injuriously to the general interests of the state.