rose and said: Sir; in consequence of the notice which I gave a few days ago, I rise to call the attention of the House to a subject well deserving its distinguished notice, the conduct of lord Wellington and the troops tinder his orders, at the late capture of the important fortress of Ciudad Rodrigo, and of suggesting to it the propriety of marking this achievement with its warmest thanks and most sincere approbation. Although some doubt may be entertained, whether the consummate skill, industry, adroitness, and judgment of the commander in chief, or the energy, gallantry, and zeal of the forces have reflected the greatest honour on British arras; yet I am persuaded there will be no difference of opinion in according that these two circumstances united, cast a splendour round the laurels of the allied troops, which will fully entitle them on this occasion to that proud distinction which they have frequently received before from parliament, and will raise for them claims to new distinctions, if I may so express myself, to add yet further lustre to the brilliancy of their glory. I believe that the precedents are rare (perhaps this is the only one), in which an enterprise of this kind has been made the subject of particular pot ice by the House, but. I am confident the House will feel that there are on this occasion circumstances of such a nature as to render the propriety of it obvious, and even to justify a Vote of Thanks, had it been a solitary instance in which they had been conferred. The House is doubtless aware of the transactions which occurred during the short period which was occupied in performing this brilliant exploit, and therefore I will only notice them generally. On the 8th January, lord Wellington completely invested, and on the same day broke ground, before the city. The French, in the time in which they occupied the fortress, had employed themselves in making considerable and important additions to its strength—they had erected several new redoubts, particularly on the hill of St. Francisco, connected with the place by a chain of convents, fortified by palisadoes and other judicious means of defence. By this circumstance the approach to the place by a besieging army was rendered much more difficult; but lord Wellington immediately commenced operations by a successful attack upon San Francisco, by a body of troops headed by lieut. col. Colville, and the first parallel having been thus commenced, the place itself was converted into a redoubt. From the 9th to the 13th January the operations were continued, and on the night of the last mentioned day, the convent of Santa Cruz, which communicated with the body of the fortress, was taken by surprise by general Graham—thus protecting most effectually the right wing of the allied army. On the 14th the convent of San Francisco was attacked, captured by lieut. col. Colville, and the suburbs entered and taken possession of by the British troops. From the 15th to the 19th the works were continued, and the second parallel was completed. The batteries during this period bad throughout kept up a warm fire, and had made a considerable impression on the walls, in which two breaches had been opened, conceived by the enterprising commander in chief to be at that time practicable, although such regular approaches towards; the city had not yet been made, as are usual in undertakings of this arduous nature. Lord Wellington, with the assistance of his generals, deemed an assault advisable—and taking into view the situation of both armies, the means of attack possessed by the one, and the means of defence and annoyance by the other, determined that the assault should be made after nightfall on the 19th of January. The attempt was made by the allied troops in five columns: the two right columns were led by lieut. col. O'Toole, and major Ridge; the third was formed of major- general M'Kinnon's division. The fourth column, under major-general Craufurd, was directed to make an attack on the breaches to the left; and general Pack's brigade formed the fifth. All these operations succeeded, and one of them beyond expectation, general Pack having converted the false attack he was directed to make into a successful enterprise, and by his vigorous proceedings taking prisoners all who ventured to resist his progress. Thus in less than half an hour from the commencement of the assault, the British army, with undaunted intrepidity, forced its way into the centre of the city, and reduced the enemy to the necessity of surrendering a fortress he had vainly attempted with his utmost exertions to retain. Unfortunately for the country, but more especially for the army, general M'Kinnon, in leading on that portion of the forces placed under his orders, was killed by the accidental explosion of a magazine he was approaching; and I am certain that the House will not hesitate a moment in concurring with me in thinking, that this unhappy loss should be followed by that mark of respect, affection and gratitude unquestionably due to the remains of an officer so gallant and experienced in the field of battle, and so amiable and virtuous in his private circle. I shall therefore propose, that a Monument be erected to his memory.—General Craufurd also was severely wounded, and, according to the dispatch of lord Wellington, the service, to the honour of which he has so much contributed, may be long deprived of his example and assistance. In the list of the wounded I am likewise sorry to include the name of major-general Vandeleur. These transactions, it will be obvious to common observation, as I stated in the opening, are marked with distinguished and almost singular merits: I say it will be obvious to common observation, because persons unacquainted, like myself, with military tactics, will find themselves greatly assisted in appreciating the value of this signal triumph, by having an opportunity to compare these proceedings with those of a similar attack directed against the same place; and the House and the country, upon the present occasion, possess the peculiar advantage of forming a contrast most decidedly in favour of our gallant army. Lord Wellington, it will be recollected, invested Ciudad Rodrigo after it had been most materially strengthened by all the military skill which the French engineers are acknowledged to possess, on the 8th January, and on the 19th January the British army took possession, having been engaged only twelve days in commencing and completing their works, and in accomplishing their glorious project. What is the fact with regard to the French army, when it sat down before the same place, not deficient in any of the ordinary means of attack, and by far more numerous than the allied army? It is true, that the garrison, on the present occasion, was smaller in number, but far superior in discipline, being composed of the most experienced and tried soldiers of the French army, among whom were engineers, who, with consummate skill and ability, directed the employment of every means of resistance that could be devised. Marsha) Massena sat down before the place on the 11th of June, 1810, broke ground on the 15th, opened his fire on the 24th, and the place did not surrender until the 10th July, comprehending a space of thirty day employed by the French, in investing, attacking, and obtaining the same fortress, which subsequently, much improved and strengthened, yielded to British intrepidity after a siege of only twelve days. The facts, as simply detailed, give to the House a much more just impression of the almost unexampled courage and ability displayed in this achievement, than any language of mine can possibly convey. I believe there is scarcely a gentleman in the House who has not had some opportunity, by means of private communications from those who were eye witnesses of the scene, of properly estimating this brilliant conquest, in which every local circumstance was taken advantage of by the general, and his judicious views seconded by the zealous support and determined gallantry of those whom he commanded. I know not if it be necessary for me to submit to the House any further observations upon this subject, being satisfied that the impression upon the mind of every honourable member will be so strong, that it will be in vain for me to attempt to add to it. I am sure that the House will concur with me in opinion, that the present case fully deserves that distinguished mark of approbation which parliament is always happy to be enabled by events, to confer upon the gallant defenders of their country and their allies. I shall therefore content myself with moving," That the Thanks of this House be given to general lord viscount Wellington, for the skill, decision, indefatigable exertions, and consummate judgment manifested by him in the recent siege of Ciudad Rodrigo, by which that important fortress has been wrested from the enemy in the short space of eleven days."

seconded the motion, and begged to add a few expressions of admiration, flowing, not merely from his lips, but dictated by his heart. It was impossible, he said, to add any thing, by brilliancy of description, to the lustre of the late transaction; but as the oldest general in that House, he wished to point out in it some characteristic marks of British gallantry. Whether the skill of the commander in chief, or the bravery of his troops were referred to, he defied any nation to produce an example of similar splendour, of troops so steady within arms, or so silent in attacks made under cover of the night. If the leader of any of our columns were disabled, the efforts of his troops were not relaxed. When what was technically called "the forlorn hope" was to be formed for the purpose of the assault, instead of 350 volunteers, which were required, no less than 700 men instantly offered themselves from only two regiments. He would not waste the time of the House by further dilation, since it was impossible for the genius, the eloquence, the research, or the memory, of all its members to produce an achievement, whose glory at all equalled the splendour of the capture of Ciudad Rodrigo.

made a single observation, in which he suggested the propriety of conferring some additional mark of gratitude on lord Wellington.

was proceeding to notice some misrepresentation of what he had staled on the question of voting thanks to lord Minto, when he was interrupted by the Speaker, who informed him that such a subject was wholly irrelevant to the matter before the House.

observed, that what he was about to remark might be irrelevant also, but he could not help inquiring why ministers had not proposed a Vote of Thanks to general Hill, for the defeat of general Girard, at Merida?

was anxious that the name of major Napier should not be for- gotten among the list of those who had signally distinguished themselves. He was one of three brothers who had received among them eleven wounds. The late Sir John Moore had expressed his high opinion of this brave officer, who bad served and suffered in his country's cause as much as any man in the army.

paid a high compliment to the talents of lord Wellington, in whom the army had perfect confidence, whether he was acting on the defensive, or leading his troops to the attack. Another reason which induced him to concur in this vote was, the incitement it would be to young men yet undetermined to commence a career of glory in the army, when they held in prospect the honourable reward which was now bestowed. The Vote of Thanks to lord Wellington was then passed, nem. con. as were also the following. Resolved, nem. con." 2. That the thanks of this House, be given to lieut. general Thomas Graham, second in command, to lieut. general Thomas Picton, major-general the hon. Charles Colville, major-general Robert Craufurd, major-general John Vandeleur, and to colonel Dennis Pack, brigadier-general in the Portuguese service, for their distinguished exertions-during the recent siege of Ciudad Rodrigo, which was gloriously terminated by the successful assault of that important fortress upon the evening of the 19th of January last. 3. To the officers of the British and Portuguese forces who so nobly led the allied troops to the assault of Ciudad Rodrigo upon the evening of the 19th of January last, and brought the siege to a speedy and successful termination by exertions of the most signal valour and intelligence. 4. To the officers belonging to the corps of royal engineers, and to the officers belonging to the royal artillery and Portuguese artillery, serving under the command of lord viscount Wellington at the recent seige of Ciudad Rodrigo, for the professional ability and indefatigable zeal displayed by them throughout the operation. 5. That this House doth roost highly acknowledge and approve of the distinguished bravery, zeal, and discipline so conspicuously displayed by the non-commissioned officers and soldiers of the British and Portuguese forces employed in the glorious assault of Ciudad Rodrigo upon-the evening of the 19th of January last. 6. That this House doth highly acknow- ledge and approve of the good conduct, spirit of enterprize, patience and perseverance manifested by the other general officers, officers, non-commissioned officers, and soldiers belonging to the British and Portuguese forces which served under the command of general lord viscount Wellington in the recent siege of Ciudad Rodrigo." Ordered, That Mr. Speaker do signify the said Resolutions to general lord viscount Wellington; and that lord viscount Wellington be desired to signify the same to the generals commanding the allied armies at the late siege and capture of Ciudad Rodrigo. Resolved, nan. con. That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, That he will be graciously pleased to give directions, that a monument be erected in the Cathedral Church of St. Paul London, to the memory of major-general Henry Mackinnon, who fell gloriously on the 19th of January last in the assault of Ciudad Rodrigo, by which that fortress was wrested from the possession of the enemy; and to assure his Royal Highness that this House will make good the expence attending the same.

rose to make his promised motion on this subject. It was, he said, a principle not to be departed from, that all applications to parliament for an increase of the Civil List, should be appeals to the justice rather than to the generosity of the House. The civil list was intended to meet the expences incident to the support of the dignity, power, and splendour of the royal establishment. It was independent of parliament on the one band, and calculated on the other to preserve the people from additional burthens. When once limited by parliament, it was the duty of those who superintended and controled its expenditure, to square their measures with the allowance given, and it was not for parliament to keep pace with their extravagance. He was aware that circumstances might arise to render augmentation necessary, but in that case it was the duty of the House to examine whether that arose from a proper expenditure or from mere idle extravagance. They ought to see that a real necessity existed, and not grant additions, which were made necessary by waste. It was under these feelings the House had acted in 1802, when Mr. Addington wished to augment the civil list. He had moved for the appointment of a committee, which sat and made several reports, in some branches recommending further payments, in others retrenchment. According to these reports, the civil list was augmented in the sum of 60,000l and further by the taking away charges formerly bearing upon it, to the amount of 138,000l. more. The House had also in the late bills, but without inquiry or investigation, added 130,000l. to the civil list. It was his intention to call the attention of the House to these circumstances, and to shew how far the expences of this list bad exceeded the estimates since 1804. His purpose was to shew that the funds were not managed with proper economy. The civil list revenue was divided into nine classes. The first, consisting of salaries to the royal family, was liable to no variation, except from the increase or decrease of their number, and it had accordingly diminished in amount, owing to the late death of one of the princesses. The second class was of a similar description, containing the salaries to the Lord Chancellor, the Speaker of the House of Commons, and the Judges, and consequently susceptible of no variation. The third class was salaries to ministers at foreign courts. This head, in 1804, was estimated at 112,330l. and was of a nature to lessen with the diminished extent of our foreign relations. Its other bead consisted of pensions to ministers in retirement. The expences of these two items taken together, were below the estimate, though they had increased during the last three years, he believed, from the increased number of new appointments. In the fourth class the greatest excess had taken place; namely, for approved bills of trades-people and artificers. This head was, in 1804, estimated at 172,000l.; but in 1805, it amounted to 296,000l. This great excess arose in the departments of the Lord Chamberlain and the Lord Steward. The Lord Chamberlain's expenditure had been estimated at 65,000l. but in 1805, it rose to more than double that sum, being 133,000l. And in other subsequent years, it had reached a still higher sum. In Mr. Burke's bill, introduced in 1782, for the purpose of limiting and controuling this department, it was provided that no expence Arising-therein, beyond the amount of 1,000l. should be paid without being previously submitted to the Lord Chamberlain, and to the Treasury, and also enacted a variety of other excellent checks. He wished to know, if these regulations had been attended to? The very first charge in the paper before them was 3,522l. for a Gothic entrance to the Treasury; which is a building, as every body knows, that has no style, or character of architecture about it. But this was a trifling matter, compared with others. The repairs for Windsor for four years amounted to 55,000l. and furniture for the same palace 76,000l. These undoubtedly appeared very large sums; but he might be told, that Windsor being peculiarly the royal residence, the expences could not be measured on a common scale. If Windsor, however, was the royal residence, Kensington was not: for the expences of Kensington, he saw 25,000l. charged, and for what? It was not for building a house suitable to the residence of one of the junior branches of the royal family, but merely for repairing and altering the suit of apartments occupied by the duke of Kent! Sixteen thousand pounds were also expended in altering and repairing apartments for the princess of Wales; and, in addition to this, there was a charge of 56,000l. for furniture, making in the whole a sum of nearly 100,000l. expended for repairing and furnishing two sets of apartments!—He was most willing to contribute liberally to every thing consistent with the splendour of royalty; but when parliament gave such allowances to these royal personages, and some of them also held high and lucrative offices, it was not right to pass over such matters without inquiry, and the enactment of further checks, if those already imposed were found to be insufficient. With regard to the Lord Steward's department, it was estimated in 1804 at 75,000l. the following year it was 129,000l. A little more economy had, indeed, prevailed in the next year, but within the last three years the expenditure had again increased. Last year, one of gloom and despondency on account of the illness of his Majesty, it would have been expected to be much diminished; but on the contrary, it amounted to 115,424l. an excess which could not be accounted for by the depreciation of the currency, which, even by alarmists, could not be taken at 50 per cent. In his opinion, great reform was necessary in this department.—Although many of these things taken separately were hardly worth detailing, yet when put together the amount was very serious. It might be said that it was difficult to suggest reforms; but it would not be difficult to carry into effect those principles of reform which were suggested in 1782, namely, supplying by contract instead of purveyance, abolishing useless offices in the household, and paying by salaries instead of perquisites. He should just mention one great abuse on this head. The charge for candles alone were 20,000l. and yet it might well be supposed, that the object of this royal illumination was not so much to administer satisfaction to the royal family by this transient splendour, as to put money in the pockets of those who had perquisites from those candles. In some departments no reform was necessary. None could be better managed than that of the Master of the Horse, where no such increase of expence had taken place as in most of the other departments.—The sixth head of expenditure consisted of Pensions, but these did not require any notice at present, as he believed the whole of their amount did not exceed the sum which was fixed in Mr. Burke's bill. Neither should he say any thing on the, seventh and eighth classes of expenditure under the Civil List Revenue, but proceed to the ninth class, which contained various items well deserving the attention of the House, as he conceived it had been subject to great abuses. The estimate of 1804, for Home Secret Service money, was 10,000l. and this sum was annually charged like an annuity, as if nothing ever caused it to vary in the slightest degree. This he considered as somewhat curious. The second item was for Special Service and Royal Bounty, which had greatly exceeded the estimate. This had been accounted for, by saying that some new classes of payments were added to this account; but would the same apology apply for the rise from 12,000l. in 1804, to 31,000l. in 1808, and 32,000l. in 1810? Within the last year, however, it, appeared to be reduced to 19,496l.; and he really thought some explanation was due to the House on a subject where such variations of expence took place.—The next head of expence to which he begged to call their atention, was that of Extraordinary Disbursements to Foreign Ministers. This, doubtless, was a subject of considerable delicacy; and he might probably be told that it belonged-to the very nature of secret, service money of this sort, that the pur- poses for which it was expended should not be disclosed. He was aware of the force of this reasoning, and that it might be both unjust to individuals and injurious to the interests of the country, to publish in what way these sums were disposed of: but he must be allowed to observe, that a very large sum was annually appropriated out of the supplies, for the purpose of secret service money; and was it to be borne, that the same sort of expenditure should also be mixed up with the various charges on the Civil List revenue? He should be most unwilling to examine with rigid severity into these disbursements to Foreign Ministers, particularly where they may have consisted in payments for secret service: but still it would be a fair subject of enquiry for a committee, what receipts and vouchers had been given in to the Treasury; and still more, why two services had been mixed up together, and secret service money charged on the civil list, while so large an annual sum was appropriated by parliament for that very purpose, But the same reasons of delicacy and danger as to any explanation about secret service money would not extend to the equipage expenses of foreign ministers. It would be necessary for the committee to examine why large sums had been given for the outfit of some ministers who had never gone out to the place of their destination. One right hon. gentleman (Mr. Arbuthnot) had on a former night expressed his willingness to give every explanation with regard to the expences of the embassy on which he had been employed. This explanation he trusted to hear that night; for really he could not see at present why a sum of more than 40,000l. should stand against that right hon. gentleman's name, as the amount of extraordinary disbursements on his embassy to Constantinople; and why it was at all necessary to build a palace for the British legation at that capital, which should cost 26,000l.—The next charge was that of Contingent Expences of the Treasury. This, in 1804, was calculated at 1,500l. but had gradually increased to between 4,000l. and 5,000l.—He trusted that he had, upon the whole, established sufficient ground for the House going into a Committee of enquiry on this subject. There was every appearance that in the course of no long period, the House would have to settle the amount of the civil list. This was an event to be looked forward to in the common course of nature; and, therefore, the House should not be unprepared to come to a right determination upon it. Upon all these grounds he should now move," That a Select Committee be appointed to consider of the charge upon the Civil List Revenue; and that they do report the same, with their observations-thereupon, to the House."

said, the hon. gentleman who had just sat down had so particularly called upon him, that he hoped the House would excuse him if he rose thus early in the debate. He should not follow the hon. gentleman through the whole of his statement, but he begged to mention one obvious reason why it appeared to him impossible, that, without injury to the public interests, and without injustice to private individuals, the House should grant the Committee moved for by the hon. gentleman, at least as far as it related to foreign ministers. He was sure the House was not aware of the detriment which frequently ensued from the publicity given to the dispatches of ministers sent by this country to foreign courts. In order to shew the injurious consequences which sometimes follow from the publication in this country of the dispatches of foreign ministers, he begged leave to state a circumstance that occurred to him in one of the missions in which he had had the honour of being employed It would be obvious to the House, that he could not, with propriety, mention the place, or the names of the persons to whom he was alluding; but the fact be meant to state was, that it once happened to him, when employed upon a mission of considerable importance to the interests of this country, to be upon terms of the most confidential intimacy with the minister of an allied power, resident at the same court. That minister received dispatches, with the contents of which it was of essential consequence that he (Mr. Arbuthnot) should be acquainted. It was of the more consequence, because it frequently occurred that the ministers of foreign courts received more regular dispatches than our ministers did; and, at the very time to which he was alluding, it did so happen that he had not received any dispatches from this country. The only means he had of ascertaining the relations subsisting between his own court and that of the minister to whom he was referring, were from a perusal of the dispatches received by that minister. He accordingly applied for, and obtained, permission to peruse those dispatches, which were of a nature to make it evident that it was necessary for him to support the representations of that minister, and be had, at the time, no other grounds upon which to form his conduct, not having, as he had before stated, received any instructions from his own court. It happened that, about that time, English papers were received at the place to which he was alluding, containing some public dispatches which had been printed by order of that House, and which, if he might be permitted to say so, had better have been kept secret. The instant that these papers were received, the minister, with whom he was in confidence, refused any longer to make those communications to him, alledging, that he could' not do it consistently with his own safety. If that minister had acted upon that resolution, he (Mr. Arbuthnot) would have been at a loss what conduct to pursue. Circumstances had occurred which seemed to indicate that the court, to which that minister belonged, was not so intimately connected with the court of London as he had previously supposed it to be; although, indeed, as he afterwards ascertained, these were but mere appearances. In the difficulty into which he had been brought, and brought by the indiscreet publication of dispatches at home, he had but one course to pursue. He requested the foreign minister, to whom he was alluding, to inform him at least how the court which that minister represented and the court of London were acting together; and at the same time he declared to him that, if this information were withheld, he could no longer continue to support his representations. With this request that minister at length complied, but it was upon condition that he would promise, upon his honour, that those communications should not be transmitted to England in his public dispatches. He gave the promise required, but he asked permission to convey the information in private letters, to which, after much entreaty, the minister consented. This circumstance reminded him of an observation made once by a member of that House (by a noble lord he believed) that he could not understand what was meant by private letters from foreign ministers. He begged to assure the House, that if it were not for such private communications, no foreign minister would be able to discharge the duties of his mission. An hon. friend of his opposite to him had, upon his mentioning what had happened to himself, related facts to him of a much more curious and important nature. He did not feel himself at liberty to state the particulars; it was sufficient to say, that even the salvation of Europe might at that time have seemed to depend upon his hon. friend having a free communication with those to whom he was directed to unfold himself confidentially; but such was the jealousy entertained by all foreigners in consequence of the publicity given to dispatches in this country, that it was considered dangerous to communicate with the ministers of this court. With regard to his own pecuniary accounts, he was so circumstanced that he had no excuse to make for not giving a full detail of them; there was no explanation which he was not ready and willing to give. [Here there was a general cry of Hear, hear!] But he wished to stand as it were in the gap between the House and other ministers who had been employed in foreign missions, and who, some of them, might be differently circumstanced from himself. It might be urged, that if it were necessary that these secret expences should be incurred, they ought to be defrayed out of the Secret Service Money, not out of the Civil List. The observation would be one which be should not pretend to dispute; but still it might happen, as in particular instances it had actually happened, that this could not always be the case. He begged also to state, that it was not merely the publicity given to diplomatic papers which produced the whole of the injury. It was to the very principle of such publicity to which he must object. It was not to be expected that persons on the continent, unacquainted with our usages, could be aware of the extent to which we made our dispatches public; but when they saw that so much publicity was given to whatever was connected with our diplomatic relations, how could they be sure that their names and their communications would not also be made known to the world. This was a point which he was most anxious to press upon the attention of the House, because it was one which most materially affected our interests in our intercourse with foreign nations. He trusted that, before he sat down, he should be able to satisfy the House that there were such cheeks upon the disbursements of foreign ministers, as would render the appointment of the proposed Com- mittee unnecessary, as far at least as the accounts of those ministers were concerned. He should now proceed to give the explanation which he had promised. The sum charged against his name was not, as had been stated, 46,000l but 47,897l He should class the heads of expence in a different form from that in which they were laid before the House; the sums, however, would be the same, but he thought that the mode he should pursue would make the subject more intelligible. The different heads under which he proposed to class them were, First, those relating to the British palace erected at Constantinople: Secondly, the extraordinary disbursements of the mission: and thirdly, the compensation he had received for his own losses. The hon. gentleman desired to know, why it was necessary to erect a palace at Constantinople. He would give him, he hoped, a satisfactory answer. He was afraid he should trespass too long upon the time of the House in giving these details, but he trusted he should be pardoned. It was necessary to state that such was the nature of Pera, the suburb of Constantinople, in which foreign ministers resided, both with regard to houses and streets, that it was impossible to find a house there fit for a minister to live in. Of this fact his hon. friend who succeeded him, he was sure, was convinced, and would confirm his statement. Not only the more powerful nations of Europe, but even all the smaller ones, which sent embassies to Constantinople, had palaces annexed to their missions. In former times, when there was not the same political importance attached to the British mission to Constantinople, that there has recently been, the British minister had a palace, and that palace had been inhabited a century ago by Mr. Wortley Montague, and being entirely composed of wood it had been found impossible to repair it. When lord Elgin was at the Porte, there being no French ambassador there, his lordship occupied the French palace. But the Porte being desirous of manifesting its respect for this country, gave a piece of ground, and undertook to build a palace for the British minister. Lord Elgin thought it necessary to send for architects from other countries to superintend the erection of the palace, as other ministers had done, and not to build it according to the Turkish manner. The Porte, as he had already stated, had most liberally advanced the money for the erection of this palace. The ground allotted was also very extensive, as the Porte insisted that the British palace should be as superior to others, as our court was then, in their estimation, superior to that of the other nations of Europe. When lord Elgin left Constantinople, the palace was not finished; the building, however, was considerably advanced; the outside walls and some of the inner walls having been erected. His lordship was succeeded at Constantinople by Mr. Drummond, who disliked the residence in that country so much, that he wrote home to be recalled, and therefore did not take upon himself the trouble or responsibility of finishing the palace; he, however, had it covered over, leaving it to future ambassadors to complete it. Such was the stale of the palace when he (Mr. Arbuthnot) was appointed to the Turkish embassy. Upon his arrival at Constantinople he learnt from Mr. Stratton what was the actual state of the palace, and he was informed by biro, that it must immediately be completed, as there was not any other residence even fit for a minister of the lowest order to reside in. Under these circumstances he felt it to be his duty to write to lord Harrowby, then Secretary of State for the foreign Department, for instructions how he was to act. His lordship gave him discretionary powers, it being impossible on account of the distance of the two courts to give precise directions; but his lordship desired, however, that the government might be apprized and consulted before any large expences were incurred. As he found that a large sum would be necessary, he wrote home to lord Mulgrave, who had succeeded lord Harrowby, and stated that, in order to save the public money, he intended to sell a part of the ground, though it would be injurious to the view of the palace, and he did actually agree to sell a part for 3,000l Lord Mulgrave sent him directions to complete the building of the palace. Soon after the arrival of these instructions from lord Mulgrave, he was informed of a circumstance of which he was not before aware, viz. that as the ground had been purchased by the Porte for a British palace, it would probably give offence if any part of it were sold, this induced him to apply to the persons to whom he had agreed to sell the ground, and to request that they would restore it to him, which of course increased the expence. Under these circumstances he proceeded with the building, which certainly was upon a very extensive scale; but he was not responsible for its size, as it had been begun, and the walls as he had already stated, had been built by lord Elgin. He would now state the different sums which he had drawn for on this account—he would state the details if the House thought it necessary. [Here there was a cry of no, no!] The sum drawn for was large, but as the building was immense, as large he believed as was ever inhabited by a private individual, he trusted that the House would not think that the expence had been extravagant. His hon. friend opposite to him (Mr. Adair,) who had seen the palace, would, he was confident, confirm this part of his statement, and would satisfy the House that the expence incurred in the decorations or furniture was not greater than was absolutely necessary. In addition to the expence of building the palace, was that of furnishing; and he was obliged to procure the chief part of the furniture from this country. The sum necessary for this purpose (the expence of carriage and freightage being very great) amounted to 5,817l. The vouchers for every shilling of these sums were deposited in the foreign office. He begged leave here to state, that when his salary was arranged, it was understood that he should find a house to reside in without any expence to himself; but that not being the case, it had been deemed reasonable that he should be reimbursed the expence he was put to in procuring one. In this opinion the succeeding governments with which he corresponded had concurred. In addition to the above sums, he had been forced to the necessity of drawing for 1,000l. under the circumstances which he would state to the House. It was his usual practice to take from the banker at Constantinople the various sums which he wanted on public account, and the government here had taken such a length of time to examine and to pass his accounts, that the sum which he had mentioned had he-come due to the banker for interest before the money was remitted from Great Britain. He was sure that the House would not think that a debt so incurred ought to fall on him; and he must here remark, that the tardiness evinced by each succeeding government to pass his accounts, supported as they were by the most unobjectionable vouchers, afforded no mean proof that the public disbursements of foreign ministers were sufficiently checked and controuled. He had also to pay interest for money advanced by his banker to him, but he had taken care to separate all the sums which were on his private account, from that which was advanced for the public service. He now came to the second head, which was that of extraordinary disbursements. The first item was for messengers, 3,133l. 9s. 8¾d. He did not know whether this would appear to be a large sum for messengers, but upon his arrival at Constantinople, he put the establishment of messengers upon the most economical footing. He did not permit them to be upon the usual footing of messengers from England, but ascertained the expence of their journies, and he paid them accordingly. He had to carry on a very extensive correspondence not only with England, but with Petersburgh, Vienna, Bagdad, Egypt, the Morea, Albania, and other places which it was not necessary to enumerate. He had also to state, that in consequence of the great insecurity of the roads, he could scarcely ever carry on his correspondence by the post, but was obliged to send messengers. He therefore hoped the House would not think the expence too large. The next item he had to state was that of presents and money given to janissaries. It was necessary to observe, that a foreign minister could not obtain an audience with the ministers of the Porte without upon every occasion making presents to them:—the sum charged for this purpose was 1,899l. 10s. 5¾d. It might be supposed that as he gave, so he also received presents in return; but this was not the fact, he had never received a single present, except two pelisses at his public audiences from the Sultan, which was in conformity with the custom of that court. The foreign ministers of other courts constantly received presents; he, however, had never done so; but he claimed no merit from this circumstance, as his immediate predecessor Mr. Drummond had first put an end to that practice. It had also been the custom of the foreign ministers to receive considerable sums of money from those persons who were under the protection of the mission, but he had never received any such sums; here again he claimed no merit, as Mr. Drummond had also abolished that practice. He had therefore distinctly to state, that although be had made presents to others, be never had in a single instance received one himself. (A general cry of hear! hear!) The next item in the account was 1863l. 12s. 9d. for dragomans., in former times when our missions to Constantinople were more of a commercial than a political nature, and belonged in fact more to the Levant Company than to the government the expence of dragomans was defrayed by the Levant Company; but when it became necessary to send an embassy purely political to Constantinople, that Company refused to any longer defray the expence of the dragomans, and it of course fell upon government. Under these circumstances, it became his duty to pay the dragomans, and this he had done in the most economical manner. The various sums he had already enumerated amounted to above 30,000l, not one single shilling of which had in point of fact passed through his hands. The banker at Constantinople had advanced the money; he examined the accounts, and regularly transmitted the vouchers to his government. The next item was for extraordinary expences. When he went on the mission, his salary as paid net to him, was fixed at 6,452l. but he soon found that it was impossible for him to live upon that salary, for his expences amounted to double that sum. He immediately informed his court of that circumstance. Being at that time unable on account of domestic circumstances to attend as much as he could have wished to all the details of his establishment, he requested his friend the Russian minister, M. de Italinski, to examine the state of his expenditure, and to give his opinion whether or not it was too large. [Here Mr. Arbuthnot read a letter from M. de Italinski, stating that he thought his establishment much too small; in particular, he said it was deficient in valets and livery servants, as a great degree of shew and splendour was necessary in that place. He also added, that as the price of every article was daily increasing, his expences would annually exceed 150,000 piastres, about 10,000l.] Finding, as he had already stated, that he could not live upon his salary, he wrote home to his court stating the situation in which he found himself, and adding that unless his salary should be raised he could not remain at Constantinople. He begged leave here to mention another circum- stance which had added considerably to his expences. When he was about to leave England to proceed upon his mission, he received directions to go to Vienna, instead of proceeding at once to Constantinople in a frigate as was at first intended. Sir A. Paget, our minister at Vienna, had signified a wish to come to England upon his private affairs, and he had been directed to carry on the business of that mission diving his absence. It afterwards appeared that Sir Arthur was not desirous of quitting his post; but it was scarcely necessary to state that he had been put to a very considerable expence in travelling with his family across the continent, and during his stay at Vienna. While he was remaining, in that capital he had written to Constantinople to procure a house, as the palace was not completed; he had also given directions for procuring a country residence, which was necessary; and he likewise gave orders for the proper number of servants to be engaged. When he left Vienna to go to Constantinople, he applied to lord Nelson, who at that time commanded in the Mediterranean, for a frigate, but several months elapsed before he could procure one for his passage from Trieste. The result was, that a very considerable and unlooked for expence had been incurred; and he could here state, that such extra-travelling expences, when incurred by foreign ministers, were invariably defrayed by government. The expence, indeed, which he had incurred in travelling across the continent, and keeping up his establishment at Constantinople even before he had arrived there, was so great, that he found he had incurred a very large debt with his agent in England, and that it was impossible to subsist upon the salary allowed to him. He therefore drew upon government for 5,732l. 4s. 2d. for his extraordinary expences since his departure from this country. If this sum of 5,732l. were divided into three parts, it would add 1,910l. for each of the three years that he was employed upon his mission, and the net salary which he had thus received would amount in the whole to 8,362l. a year. He could assure the House that he had, during the whole time he was thus employed, lived as economically as he possibly could; yet he was under the necessity of spending every shilling of his private income, besides taking 3,000l. from the principal of his private fortune, and he was now actually paying the debts which during his mission he had contracted. He was not making any complaints, or looking for compensation. He could assure the House he felt more pleasure in detailing these losses, than he should have in stating that his private fortune had received any increase from his public missions. (Here there was a general cry of hear, hear! from all sides of the House.) When he undertook this mission, he had been told that he was going upon a new service—that they did not know what salary to allow him, but that care should be taken that he should not be ruined. He had not only gone beyond his salary on this occasion, but, if he were to go into particulars, he could shew, if necessary, that upon the several missions on which he had been employed, he had spent several thousand pounds more than he had received. He did not say that he had been ruined; but he could say that if he had now all the sums which he had spent upon his missions beyond the salary he received, he should have sufficient to purchase an annuity equal to the pension he should receive from the country if he were not in office. A noble lord, a friend of his, had most liberally refused to take the pension allowed to foreign ministers; but he would throw himself upon the candour of the House, and ask, whether having thus impoverished his fortune and deprived his children of many thousand pounds, he could be expected to act as liberally as his noble friend to whom he had alluded. He had thought it right to mention this fact respecting his noble friend, because though he knew it, the public might not. He had omitted in its proper place to state the mode which be had adopted with a view to guard against any overcharge or improper expence in the building of the palace. Not being able to examine the bills of the different workmen in that country, he had directed a dragoman to investigate all their accounts, and to him he had entrusted the care and management of the whole of the building. When these accounts had been thus investigated and examined, they were delivered over to Mr. Morier, his Majesty's counsel, who from his long residence in Turkey was well qualified for the task, and he was directed to make every observation which occurred to him upon them. It was not till this full examination had taken place that the accounts were transmitted to England, and he trusted, that from what he had stated, the vouchers for each separate expence being deposited in the foreign office, it would not appear that he had acted incorrectly in the manner in which he had conducted his pecuniary accounts, or that the government had been over ready in reimbursing the money he had expended, or in sanctioning the expence incurred. The last head of expenditure to which he wished to call the attention of the House, was the compensation for his losses. The sum was 7,765l. 11s. and the sum for his secretary and servants 794l. 11s. 11d. making together 8,560l. 2s. 11d. On the subject of compensation for losses, when he stated that the whole value of the effects he had at Constantinople, amounted to 21,000l. it might be said, that his establishment was too large; but it appeared from the statement he had read from M. de Italinski, that it was not only not a very expensive one, but that it was less than it ought to have been. He had expected to remain at Constantinople along time, and therefore had taken the whole of his effects with him; he would if the House chose read the detail. (A cry of No, no.) Mr. Arbuthnot then read a letter which he wrote to Mr. Canning, dated 6th November, 1807, stating, that the amount of the effects which he left at Constantinople amounted to 21,496l. It was impossible for him at the time he wrote to Mr. Canning to calculate precisely the amount of his actual loss, but he was then confident that 7,700l. was as small a sum as ought to be applied for. He had learnt that the palace had been pillaged and his property plundered after he had left Constantinople, and the nature and extent of his loss bad been in part made known to him; but he might in justice to himself, observe, that in laying before government a detailed statement of the value of his effects, he had taken no notice whatever of that part of his property for which he had not the means of producing vouchers. After he had ascertained that all his property had been lost, except his plate, some of his books, and china, he made an application to government to be further reimbursed, but he had previously applied to his honourable friend opposite to him (Mr. Adair), who knew what losses he bad sustained, and who had declared to him, both verbally and in writing, that he was fully warranted in making the application. In consequence of this application, he was allowed the additional sum of 3,000l., which further and final compensation had been paid since the making up of the accounts now upon the table. Before he made this application he laid the accounts in all their details before his honourable friend, and it was not till he got his assurance that the property was lest, and that he believed the account a just one, that he made his application for reimbursement. Having gone through the whole of his explanations, it might not be improper to recapitulate what he had stated,

	£	s.	d.
Palace	17,265	2	7¼
Miscellaneous, connected with the palace	6,827	17	4
EXTRAORDINARIES.
Messengers	3,173	9	8¾
Presents and Janissaries	1,899	10	5½
Dragomans	1,863	12	9
Extra expences	5,732	4	2
Compensation for losses	7,765	11	0
For secretary and servants	798	0	0
Total received	45,281	19	11½
Add exchequer fees.	2,615	5	8½
	47,897	5	8

He was not aware how far the House might think that a foreign minister should be compensated for his losses, whether occasioned by his own act or by the acts of others. It would be painful to him if he thought he had been compensated for any losses which might have been avoided (hear, hear!). When the circumstances of his departure from Constanstinople were mentioned in that House, he had not the honour of a seat in it, and if he troubled the House with any observations not immediately connected with the subject before them, he hoped he should be pardoned for so doing. It was not his wish to re-agitate that question, or to introduce any party feelings into the discussion. His object was to do justice to others where he felt that justice was due; to take responsibility upon himself, when he was aware that he alone ought to-be responsible; and to justify himself when he was confident that full and entire justification could be offered. (Hear, hear!) With respect to his own justification, it would depend entirely upon the circumstances which he should state to the House. Upon the review of the whole of his conduct, he believed that he could not do otherwise than he had done, and if it were to be done again, he should pursue the same conduct. When he spoke of doing justice to others, he alluded particularly to lord Grey, from whom he had received the instructions upon which he had acted. Many persons had said to him, that having received instructions and obeyed them, he was no longer responsible, but these were grounds upon which he would not rest his defence. Lord Grey was certainly not bound to have given him such instructions, but he never wrote a dispatch from Constantinople, without calling upon his lordship to give him the instructions which he had afterwards received. He had suggested the necessity, of pursuing those measures which were pursued; and he had stated, that unless a British squadron were sent to act with efficacy at Constantinople, the court of Russia would think we were not sincere in the common cause. He therefore should ever feel that the instructions had proceeded from the opinions given by him, and upon him ought in justice to fall, whatever responsibility had been incurred by such instructions. He should now state shortly the causes which led to the termination of his mission. As soon as general Sebastiani arrived at Constantinople (not to go farther back) it was perceived that the Porte, which until then had been willing to act up to its engagements, was disposed to break the alliance with Russia. A Russian frigate having appeared in the Bosphorus, general Sebastiani declared, that he could not permit such a circumstance, and if the Porte wished to preserve friendship with France, Russian ships must not be allowed to enter the Bosphorus. At that time the Hospodars of Moldavia and Wallachia were displaced in violation of the treaty with Russia, and this was done at the instigation of Sebastiani: the Court of Russia ordered the Russian minister to complain of this circumstance and to threaten to leave Constantinople if they were not restored; his application had not the desired effect; he then applied to him (Mr. Arbuthnot) to support his representation, which he did, and after a negociation of 14 days, the Hospodars were reinstated. Nothing could be greater than the influence of the British Court at the Porte at that time, as was proved by the restoration of the Hospodars. But about six weeks afterwards, it was rumoured that a Rus- sian army had crossed into Moldavia. He was immediately applied to by the Ministers of the Porte upon the subject, but he could not give them any satisfactory information, M. de Italinski, the Russian minister, not having received any intimation of the event. As his object was to prevent a war betwen Russia and the Porte, he prevailed upon the Turkish government to wait until dispatches were received from Petersburgh. He obtained a delay of three weeks; at length the janissaries and the uhlema became impatient, and clamoured for a war with Russia. The Russian minister was then ordered to leave Constantinople, and it being supposed that the court of London would adopt the same conduct as that of Petersburgh, the influence of France became predominant. He had before this time requested that an additional squadron should be sent to Constantinople. Lord Grey concurred in that opinion, and he received dispatches from his lordship informing him that orders had been given for a squadron immediately to proceed to that capital. As soon as he received those dispatches, he demanded an audience of the Turkish ministers, and at that audience requested that the treaty with Russia should be observed, and he added, that if his propositions were not complied with, Great Britain would declare war against the Porte. His propositions were refused. He then applied for passports to send messengers to England and the Dardanelles, where he expected the English admiral was arrived, but these were also refused. He had been instructed that admiral Duckworth would be ordered to correspond with him before he proceeded to hostilities; but he found that communication with the admiral would not be possible without the passports. It was also recently intimated to him, that there was an intention of preventing the British admiral from acting, by keeping the British factory and himself (Mr. A.) as hostages. He therefore thought it necessary to put the British factory in a state of safety. He knew that the admiral would be called upon to act, and that in consequence of a want of communication with him he would not know how to proceed. As he found that he could not negociate with freedom; as the means of corresponding with his government or with the British admiral were denied; and as secret intimation had been given that he and the other British subjects were to be detained as hostages, it was of the utmost importance that the factory should be removed. He could not think, however, of leaving Constantinople until every British subject had been placed in safety. Secrecy alone could insure the success of his arrangements. He desired therefore, that the whole of the factory should be invited to dine on board the British frigate, and when he had received information that every individual was on board, then, and not till then, he embarked himself. He afterwards proceeded to the Dardanelles, and there waited till admiral Duckworth had arrived. Contrary winds detained the squadron for a considerable time below the Dardanelles, and in the meanwhile the Turks were actively at work in fortifying that passage. While he and the admiral were waiting for a fair wind, an opportunity offered for renewing the negociation with the captain Pacha who was stationed at the Dardanelles. He went on shore to confer with that officer, and as in so doing he had placed himself in the hands of the Turks, he had given a proof, he trusted, that in retiring from his post, personal safety had not been his object, but that all which he had had in view was to secure the safety of the British subjects, and to obtain the means of negociating with freedom. (A general cry of hear, hear!) So great had been his desire to preserve peace, that he had offered, if the works at the Dardanelles were discontinued, to accompany the captain Pacha in a Turkish row boat to Constantinople, and from thence to proceed to the Russian general in Moldavia with a view to negociate for the renewal of the amicable relations, which had so unfortunately been interrupted. The captain Pacha declared that he did not venture to suspend the fortification of the Dardanelles. Admiral Duckworth and himself felt therefore that the passage must be forced. The history of that passage was already known to the House. When they reached the sea of Marmora, his responsibility, as it must be evident, had then ceased; for he could not pretend to direct the operations of a fleet, and he was then suddenly attacked by so severe an indisposition that for weeks his life was despaired of. It was right however to inform the House, that the wind which had carried them through the Dardanelles failed them on their entrance into the sea of Marmora; and all that could be done was to drift to the Princes islands, where they were obliged to cast anchor, and it never afterwards was in the power of the squadron to act against Constantinople. From what the admiral and his fleet had effected, the House and the public might infer what would have been performed if the opportunity had ever offered. He would now if the House thought it necessary, read some letters from lord Howick, and from Mr. Canning, expressive of their approbation of every part of his conduct, (a cry of No, no!) Since it was not the pleasure of the House to hear those letters, he could only express a hope that the House would take it for granted, that the political part of his conduct had been approved by government. With regard to his pecuniary disbursements, he should also hope that his explanations had been of a nature to satisfy the House that he had done all which could have been required of him. He should only say that he had not made one single assertion which was not borne out by vouchers. If any gentleman thought that any further explanation was necessary, he would most willingly give it, and he assured the House, that there was no degree of publicity respecting his conduct, which he would not anxiously court. [Hear, hear! from both sides of the House.]

was happy to have it in his power to confirm the statement just made to the House by his right hon. friend, in every part where he had been appealed to. As to the building of the palace, he thought it was necessary; and that the expences attending it ought very fairly to be defrayed by the government. Though no person was less inclined than himself to revive the mention of a forgotten controversy, yet he begged to trouble the House with a few circumstances connected with the departure of his right hon. friend from Constantinople. He certainly confessed, that if he had been in Constantinople under the circumstances in which his right hon. friend was, he could not have acted otherwise than his right hon. friend did; bat, at the same time, in justice to the government which placed the squadron at the disposal of the British ambassador, he must say that that squadron was fully adequate to the objects which it was intended to accomplish. No blame, however, attached to the gallant admiral (Sir J. Duckworth) nor, as he knew, to any other person, although it must be always regretted that the British fleet did not sail up to the walls of Constantinople. As soon as the fleet had effected the passage of the Dardanelles, so great was the consternation of the Turks, who thought the forts impregnable against any human effort, that the Sultan declared to Sebastiani his determination not to have his capital insulted: and ordered him to quit Constantinople. Sebastiani burnt his papers; but the Sultan being somewhat reassured by the Spanish ambassador, a negociation was artfully set on foot, which unfortunately succeeded, and to the success of which the circumstances which afterwards occurred ought, in some measure, to be attributed.

, in explanation, admitted the adequacy of the naval force sent out at that time under the command of Sir John Duckworth.

bore testimony to the liberal and hospitable manner in which the right hon. gentleman, who spoke last, had supported the honour of his official station when on a mission from this country at the court of Sweden.

, in complimenting the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Arbuthnot) on his general conduct as art ambassador, and the credit with which he had acquitted himself in different missions to Sweden, Portugal and Turkey, could not help saying that his right hon. friend had given him credit for a forbearance and liberality which he did not merit. He was not so circumstanced as his right hon. friend, who had gone through the different gradations of the foreign line, and had made it his profession, and was therefore fully entitled to the remuneration for his services which a pension offered.—The noble lord then explained the items charged to his mission at St. Peterburgh. The first was 5,000l. in 1806, incurred, while following the Emperor of Russia through Germany; and the second in 1808, when he was suddenly recalled, an insurance of 25 per cent had been imprudently effected by his banker, on the effects belonging to the embassy, which it would be hard that he should pay. On the whole he could assure the House, that he was very far from being a gainer by those missions

said, that of all the persons who ever undertook a foreign embassy, no one was less likely or less inclined to shelter himself behind the secrecy connected with that station than the marquis Wellesley. That noble lord went out on a special mission; the amount of the charge against his name was 16,903l.; but when deductions were made from that sum, which arose from the loss of several effects, and from other causes, his expences would be found reduced to 12,000l.: and when it was considered that the marquis had to keep a table for all the officers who resorted to him, in a country where the necessaries of life were then extremely dear, the House would judge whether that sum was more exorbitant than his station and situation required.^*

could not held remarking how reasonable all the expences connected with the foreign missions had been found, when they had thus been subjected to minute examination. There were, however, many secret sources of expenditure, which it would be inconvenient to the public service, and ruinous to individuals, to explain. As the object of the proposed committee was to

said, he would not be bound in the committee by what the right hon. gentleman had stated. He did not wish to push the examination of the civil list expenditure to an unnecessary extreme; but if it should be found that a veil of secrecy had been thrown over certain items, he should like to know whether those

said, that the honour of any of the gentlemen who had been employed on missions to foreign courts, was a sufficient pledge for the accuracy of their statements, and he was sensible of the inconvenience and difficulty attached to the transactions with foreign courts, under the circumstances of publicity which all proceedings were subjected to here. But the great view of the question was, what practical examination those accounts should be submitted to—what was the manner in which they should be audited? It was necessary to have some rule by which they should be guided. He concluded by moving, as an amendment, that there be added to the original motion, "And that the said committee do further inquire into all the casual and hereditary sources of revenue which have accrued to his Majesty, and report their opinion thereupon to the House."

said, that, as he was proposed to be one of the committee, he should be glad to know explicitly the line of examination which it was intended to pursue. Committees had been appointed in the years 1802, 3, and 4, to inquire into the State of the Civil List, which were of extreme importance, as the subject matter of examination was a debt of no less than 900,000l, that had accrued on it. In consequence of the investigations, 60,000l. per annum was added to the civil list; and part of the debt, to the amount of 100,000l. was subtracted. Those inquiries went only to the general charge on the civil list, and the committees had not the power of sending for persons and documents to assist their examination. If they adopted that principle now, they would be going far beyond what they had ever done before. The power and scope of the committee should be strictly defined, and on that point he desired information. He thought, as far as the provisions of Mr. Burke's act went, they had a right to enter into the state of the civil establishment; to examine any checks which existed under that Bill; and to see whether those checks were sufficient, or any others were necessary. In his opinion, it would be found that the present checks were not effectual for the purpose to which they were originally directed, and probably some alteration of the provisions contained in that Bill would be considered proper.

said, if the House determined that the committee should not have the power of sending for papers and examining persons, they were only losing their time in appointing it at all. If they were to be allowed no other information than that which the accounts already made up could furnish, they had better move to have them laid before the House at once, and thus save trouble. What he wanted was, to see whether exceedings had not taken place in particular classes, and to trace those exceedings to their origin. By looking at the papers he could perceive the excess, but, to account for it, vivâ voce evidence was necessary. The committees appointed in 1802, 3, and 4, examined minutely into each separate class, and possessed a much more extensive power than the right hon. gentleman had allowed.

having laid the report of a former committee on the table, thought himself called on to say a. few words. When the application was formerly made to regulate the civil list, in reference to the debt which had accrued on it, a noble friend of his (lord Sidmouth) had thought it was due to parliament to investigate the manner in which that debt had been incurred. But it was not thought right to invest the committee with powers to examine the private concerns of the sovereign. It was never in contemplation to permit them to send for persons, documents, and records, with a view to that investigation. Such a proceeding Would not be merely a question of public economy; it would be an inquiry into the economy of the sovereign. And, he would ask, would it be proper to send for and examine even the meanest servant of the crown, and to scrutinize, with a suspicious eye, the characters of all those connected with it? The committees, formerly appointed, had attained every necessary object, without examining witnesses, which must have the effect of giving the matter a greater degree of publicity than was necessary. They were furnished with estimates from the different departments, the Lord Chamberlain's, for instance, which, if demanded for the committee about to be appointed, would, of course, be granted. That degree of delicacy ought to be observed, which was never lost sight of on former occasions. He considered that the committee might execute a very efficient inquiry without having the power of calling for witnesses.

said, that when he made his motion, he had no idea that the committee was to be deprived of its right of inquiry. The object of its appointment would be to examine the expences of the civil list, and having weighed what was proper and what improper, to propose measures to prevent a recurrence of the latter. In the investigation it might be found necessary to examine witnesses; and if that power were not granted to the committee, its appointment would be nugatory. He would move that necessary addition to his motion.

thought it would be better for the committee, in the first place, to endeavour, from the accounts, checks, &c. which should be laid before them, to supply themselves with the requisite information; and if they found it necessary, on any particular subject, to send for persons, papers, and records, they could' come to the House for liberty so to do. The practice of the House was uniformly to restrict committees in the first instance, and he presumed they would not be disposed to depart from this usage on the present occasion. As to the amendment proposed by his hon. friend (Mr. Bankes,) he should prefer a mot ion for an Address to the crown for the accounts alluded to, and when granted, it would be in the power of the House to refer them to the committee, or not, as they might think proper.

said, he was at a loss to conceive how the committee were to proceed without a power to send for persons, papers, and records. It might be necessary to call on the Lord Chamberlain and Lord Steward personally to appear before the committee; and if it was to be thus confined, it would be useless.

agreed to withdraw his motion; which was, with leave of the House, withdrawn accordingly.

said, that if the House delegated to this committee a power to send for persons, papers, and records, they would give a power they had never exercised themselves. He should, therefore, oppose such a proposition. That power had not been granted to the former committees; and the House itself bad never called for the details of the civil list, except by address, a mode which left to the advisers of the crown the option of withholding or granting the papers. There was but one instance to the contrary, and that a fortnight old.—In the year 1780, when the question of Economical Reform was before the House, it was a disputed point whether they had a right to examine the civil list at all. An appeal being made to the then Speaker (sir Fletcher Norton), he gave it as his opinion, that they had a right to inquire into it; but he made a distinction as to that part which related to the Royal Household: and the hon. member who then represented the borough of Woodstock, in supporting Sir Fletcher's opinion, ridiculed the idea of "serving the Royal Household by contract."—Much stress had been laid on the annual exceeding of the civil list over the estimate of 1804, which was stated at 124,000l. per annum. If that estimate had been made on the average of three years preceding 1804, it would be found that the exceeding was only 28,000l. per annum, and only 18,000l. in the last year.—The classes not relating to the Household, were already the subject of detailed accounts before the House, and came with the reference to the Committee on Public Expenditure. He thought that at this particular period, of the dormancy of the powers of a King who had had for fifty years the good opinion of his people, it would be indecent to commence the proposed enquiries." Is it now" (said Mr. C.)" that we will begin to make comparisons between the late and present King, to the disadvantage of the latter, and for that purpose to make erroneous statements of fact? For that has been done by an hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Brougham). Is it now, that we will apply the contemptuous epithet of nonsense to the religious scruples of the royal breast? Is it now that we will, for the first lime, commence enquiries into the detail of the King's Household, from which we have hitherto abstained?

thought, that without the power to send for persons, papers, and records, the committee would be of no avail and that if the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer meant to refuse that power, he had much better act with sincerity at once, and refuse the committee altogether.

hoped that the House would not now do any thing which might seem to exhaust the motion of which an hon. friend of his had given notice for to-morrow, and also another motion of which he himself had given notice for Friday. He alluded to the name of Mr. Stratton, and expressed his surprise that the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Arbuthnot) had not done justice to him in his statement.

said, that not a more honourable man than Mr. Stratton existed, and he might even add, that he had perhaps more merit in the principles he had laid down than Sir W. Drummond himself.

contended, that if the committee were not to have proper powers, it would be better that the matter should not go to a committee at all. He thought a committee of that House might be so far trusted as that it might be believed they would not unnecessarily inquire into any thing which delicacy forbad them making public.

was against the appointment of a committee, unless it was to be an effectual one, The country was wearied out, and must naturally now begin to think that all committees were appointed for the purposes of deception and of delay.

propose ed, that the name of Mr. N. Vansittart should be substituted for that of lord A. Hamilton.

said, he would rather have Mr. Vansittart's name added to the committee.

objected, because the committee was to consist only of 21 members, and the addition would make it 22.

said, he had frequently been on committees originally consisting only of 21, to which members had been added, making them 22 and 23.

said the same; and that if the right hon. gentleman did not consent to have the name added, he should take the sense of the House on the proposed substitution. A division accordingly took place on the Chancellor of the Exchequer's motion.—Ayes 84; Noes 26.

then moved," That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records;" upon which a second division took place,—Ayes 27; Noes 80. Majority against Mr. Eden's motion 53. After the divisions, Mr. Eden and Mr. Tierney declared their determination not to attend the Committee; seeing that it was destitute of the necessary powers.