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Commons Chamber

Volume 23: debated on Monday 1 June 1812

House of Commons

Monday, June 1, 1812.

Negociations for Forming a New Administration

said, that seeing in his place an honourable friend of his (Mr. Stuart Wortley) who had lately originated a motion respecting the present administration, and seeing also in his place an honourable gentleman (Mr. Martin of Galway) who had expressed his intention of making on Wednesday next a motion of a similar tendency, he thought that it might be convenient to take that opportunity of apprising those hon. gentlemen, that he had on that day received an intimation from a noble friend of his, a member of the other House of Parliament, that upon the morning of that day, his royal highness the Prince Regent had been graciously pleased to give directions to that noble friend, (the marquis Wellesley,) to proceed forthwith in taking such measures as appeared to him best calculated to form a strong and efficient administration.

thought it necessary, in consequence of the statements that had appeared in several of the newspapers, to put two questions to a right hon. gentleman opposite. There were at present, two sorts of political writers for the periodical press, those whose sole aim it was to vilify and abuse all public men, and those who were employed in defending them. He thought it but fair to give the right hon. gentleman and his friends an opportunity to meet and publicly repel the insinuations which had been so lavishly thrown out against them in certain publi- cations. With this view, he had committed to paper two questions to put to the right hon. gentleman, to which he trusted an answer would be given. He would ask of him, in the first place, "Whether any person, up to this morning, did make any proposition to the right hon. gentleman, or to any of his right hon. friends, to form part of an administration; and did the right hon. gentleman, or his friends, give a refusal on personal grounds, or on what other grounds?" Secondly, "Whether—

here rose to order, observing, that there was no question before the House, and he thought the hon. gentleman was irregular. (An universal cry of Move! move! Chair! chair! succeeded.)

. The hon. member, without any motion before the House, is—(The cry of Chair! chair! was repeated.)

. I apprehend that the hon. gentleman had announced that he was about to propose some motion, and therefore I conceived he was in possession of the House.

did hope, that upon an occasion so important as the question respecting the formation of a new government, he should not have been stopped in what he had to say. He would therefore restate his first question, namely, "Whether any person, up to this morning, did make any proposition to the right hon. gentleman, or his friends, to form part of an administration; and did he, or they, give a refusal on personal grounds, or on what grounds?" Secondly, "Whether, in what had passed in those propositions, if any were made, his friends insisted upon any, and what conditions?"

rose at the same moment. The House generally called for Mr. Ponsonby, but some of the friends of Mr. Wilberforce called for that gentleman. The cry of Chair, chair! became then universal. Mr. Fremantle rose, as he stated, to speak to the question. The cry of Chair, chair! was repeated. At length order being restored,

said, If any hon. member offers himself to order, or to offer a notice, of course he has a right to be heard; but he must place himself within the rules of debate to be entitled to attention, and not keep the House debating, when, in fact, there is no question.

then rose and said, I move you, Sir, that the House do go into a committee on the Southern Whale Fishery Bill. It is incumbent on the House to hear the answers to the questions proposed by the hon. gentleman, and not to allow the characters of public men to be whispered away in the manner attempted to be done.

again rose and declared, that he knew nothing of the transaction referred to by the hon. gentleman who had put the questions, but there did seem to arise an inconvenience to the public service in putting the questions, without the possibility of coming by the answer, to any decision: he had risen before to suggest to the chair the propriety of stopping questions which appeared at least to his mind as irregular. For himself, he could have not the least personal objection to these questions.

. From the statement of the hon. gentleman at his outset, I thought he was in possession of the House.

. I speak to order. I trust the House will allow the questions to be put and answered.

hoped also that the House would allow the answers to be given. In the last instance of the kind which had occurred, the House had so decided: that was during the administration of lord North. Some questions were then put exactly similar to those just now proposed to his right hon. friend. On that occasion a dispute had occurred between lord North and the duke of Portland, and the necessary explanation was allowed to be given.

observed, that he was in order, he believed, now, for there was a question before the House, raised by the right hon. baronet.

said, that though perhaps the present was not a convenient time to put the questions, yet there could be no objection to the principle of them, as tending to explain the conduct and clear the characters of public men.

. I trust it will occur to the House, after the questions put to me by the hon. gentleman, that it will be an unexampled hardship to deny me the opportunity of answering them as correctly, as fully, and at the same time as concisely as possible. I therefore will trouble the hon. gentleman to put the questions again.

. No person whatever, up to this morning, has made any proposal to me, or to any gentleman whom I have the honour to call my friend, either in this House or in the other House of Parliament, to form part of an administration, and therefore no refusal was given, or could be given, either on public or personal grounds.

. To that question there is no answer required; for, in fact, the answer which I have given to the first question is the answer to the second. Where no proposals have been made and received, no conditions of any kind could be given.

asked whether the publications and statements on this subject, in the newspapers, were authentic.

The conversation here dropped.

wished to ask an hon. gentleman, before the House resolved itself into a committee, whether it was now his intention to bring forward, on Wednesday, the motion of which he had given notice?

replied, that he should be guided by the measures that would be adopted in the interim for the formation of a ministry.

Lincoln Gaol

, adverting to the Petition presented, and the statements made by sir S. Romilly and Mr. Brougham, on Saturday, respecting the abuses in Lincoln gaol, which statements he declared were such as to affect not only the character, but the peace of the county, intimated his intention of moving, on Friday, for a committee to enquire into the state of that gaol.

, in the absence of his hon. and learned friend, (sir S. Romilly), trusted, that as his hon. and learned friend had given notice of a motion on the subject for Wednesday se'nnight, when justice would be done to all parties, that the hon. gentleman would not persist in his notice. He was prepared by evidence to corroborate the statement which he had made.

hoped the motion would be enlarged, so as to embrace the conduct of the magistracy of the county, as their conduct had been arraigned.

expressed his concern that any unfavourable impression should have been made on that quarter from any thing he had said. His wish was that the motion should be made as general as possible.

Irish Loan

proposed that the House should go into a Committee of Ways and Means, for the purpose of moving a Resolution, sanctioning the contract for a Loan for the service of Ireland.

opposed it in the present state of the administration. He thought that the committee should be postponed to some future day, when a responsible minister might be present to move it in the committee

said, that the Loan had been contracted for before the death of Mr. Perceval, and that any delay might be productive of great injustice to the individual contractors, as well as injurious to the publicservice. He was, however, under the correction of the House, and would withdraw the motion, if they thought right; at the same time, he had discharged his duty in bringing it forward, and should be absolved from all blame in case of inconvenience arising.

thought that great inconvenience might arise from delay, while none could result from the House now proceeding to vote, as the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer was before them, and in a responsible situation.

said, that the responsibility rested properly with the First Lord of the Treasury, and that at present there was no minister: he observed, also, that the loan was different from the loan bargained for in the life-time of Mr. Perceval.

said, the House ought not to recognise the acts of a pro tempore government: however, if the transaction was entirely the same as existed before the death of Mr. Perceval, he would not oppose the present motion.

said, that Mr. Perceval wished to raise two millions in Ireland; that the gentlemen who came forward could only contract for one million and an half; that Mr. Perceval agreed to this arrangement, and the same gentlemen were the contractors.

insisted that the House of Commons should be jealous of its right to interpose in money matters, especially when there was no responsible minister.

applauded the constitutional doctrine of his hon. friend, and reprobated the conduct of those advisers of the crown, who had led the House into the present scrape.

said, that the hon. gentleman had misunderstood him. He had not accused the right hon. gentleman, but other persons of leading the House into a scrape; in which they were obliged either to injure the character of the government by delaying the contract, or to pledge themselves to a money-vote without a responsible minister.

The House then went into the Committee of Ways and Means: when Mr. W. Pole moved a Resolution, that the sum of one million and an half be raised by annuity, for the service of Ireland.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee on the Petitions against the Orders in Council.