House of Commons
Tuesday, June 2, 1812.
Droits of Admiralty
, pursuant to his notice, rose to move for an Account of all sums taken from the Fund of Droits, and afterwards replaced, down to the present day. He observed, that he had at a former period, during the life time of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, moved for such a paper. To its production that right hon. gentleman had at first objected, on the belief that a return of Nil must be made to it, but from better information from a right hon. gentleman then near him, he had altered his opinion, and, with all that urbanity which formed part of his character, had acceded to the motion. The return then ordered had never been made, and he thought it now peculiarly necessary. These Droits were a fund out of the controul of parliament, and might be made either permanently or temporarily subservient to the purposes of the crown, at times, to the amount of five or six millions, and at this moment to the amount of half a million. The accounts were the more desirable now, when there was no executive power existing in the country, but one which had been described to be merely pro forma and pro tempore, and a fund of this description might enable them to go on even for three or four days (but if only for one day it was enough), without being obliged to apply to the only constitutional mode of procuring money by a vote of parliament. He begged to be understood, that he did not accuse the government of doing this, or of borrowing money for the time from this source. He had no doubt of their innocency; but the bare possibility of such a thing was, to say the least of it, no diminution of his arguments on the former occasion. As for their way of procuring money, if the Exchequer was so poor as had been said, he was not doctor enough in the means of raising it, to know. He knew not if they got it, as had been insinuated, from the paper-mill at Thread needle street: he hoped they had not, and that this vague assertion was without foundation. He concluded by expressing his wish to have the former order renewed, and that the accounts should be made up to this day.
said, that when the learned gentleman had alluded to this subject yesterday, the impression on his mind was, that the accounts were already on the table, pursuant to the order. He had since ascertained that his impression was well founded, for the papers had been before the House ever since the 21st of May last.
said, there had been only one or two instances of advances out of this fund for the use of the royal family, but none of its application to the public service.
The Account was ordered to be made up to this day.
Petition of Peter Battey, Respecting Mr. Mansell Philipps—A Member
Lord Cochrane presented a Petition from Peter Battey, of the borough of Stafford, shoemaker; setting forth,
"That the petitioner is an elector of members to serve in parliament for the said borough, and thereby became acquainted with Richard Mansell Philipps, now and in the last parliament one of the members for the said borough; and that the petitioner, having, during the election for the last parliament, expressed a wish to obtain the discharge of one Thomas Beakton from the royal marines, the said Richard Mansell Philipps afterwards informed the petitioner, by letter, that if the petitioner would transmit to him the sum of fifty guineas, the price of two substitutes, he would procure from the Admiralty the release of the said Thomas Beakton; and that thereupon, some time in March, 1807, the petitioner transmitted to the said Richard Mansell Philipps the sum of fifty three pounds in manner following, namely, one 2l. bank of England note, one 1l. bank of England note, and a fifty pounds Manchester bank bill, at two months, dated March 14th, 1807, and which was duly paid when it became due; and that the said Thomas Beakton not being discharged, the petitioner again applied to the said Richard Mansell Philipps, who informed the petitioner that he had paid the said sum of fifty guineas at the Admiralty into the hands of Benjamin Tucker, esq. then secretary to the Admiralty, at the desire and in the presence of Thomas Francis Fremantle, esq. one of the loras commissioners of the Admiralty, which assertion of the said Richard Mansell Philipps the petitioner soon found out to be false, and the said Thomas Beakton was not discharged until the 25th of June, 1807, when another sum of fifty guineas was paid by an acquaintance of the petitioner at the Royal Marine Office for his discharge; and the petitioner has discovered that the said Richard Mansell Philipps applied the above-mentioned fifty pounds bill to his own use, by endorsing it, before it became due, to one William Eades, who, the petitioner is informed, is a grocer at Wimbledon, to whom the said Richard Mansell Philipps was at that time greatly indebted; and that the petitioner, finding himself cheated and defrauded of the said sum of fifty-three pounds by the said Richard Mansell Philipps, did, at the Epiphany general quarter sessions of the peace for the county of Surrey, in the year 1809, prefer a bill of indictment against him for obtaining money of the petitioner under false pretences, which indictment the grand jury found a true bill: but although, by the practice of the said court, the said Richard Mansell Philipps ought to have appeared and pleaded to such indictment, and the trial ought to have been had, and, if a conviction had taken place, sentence ought to have been passed on the said Richard Mansell Philipps long before this time, yet the said Richard Mansell Philipps hath not yet appeared thereunto, though he has repeatedly had notice thereof, and the justices of the said court of quarter sessions, and several individual justices, and the right hon. lord Ellenborough, who have been repeatedly applied to to grant warrants to compel an appearance, have refused to grant the same, lest the granting thereof should be construed into a breach of the privileges of the House; but the petitioner submits, that it cannot be a breach of the privileges of the House to issue legal process to compel an appearance to an indictment, a conviction on which he is informed would be a sufficient ground for his expulsion from the House; and that the petitioner is also informed, that on the 29th of November, 1763 a Resolution was entered on the Journals of the House, that privilege of parliament does not extend to the case of writing or publishing seditious libels, nor ought to be allowed to obstruct the ordinary course of the laws in the speedy and effectual prosecution of so heinous and dangerous an offence; and the petitioner conceives that a case of deliberate fraud is within the meaning and spirit of that resolution, and that at present the petitioner is without redress, but by the interference of the House; and the petitioner prays the House to compel the said Richard Mansell Philipps to appear, plead to, and try the said indictment in the usual course, or that the House will permit the peti- tioner to prove the facts at their bar, in which case the petitioner prays he may be heard by his counsel, or that the House will grant him such other redress as may most effectually prevent the ordinary course of the laws being any longer obstructed in the effectual prosecution of so heinous and dangerous an offence."
stated, that the magistrates of the county had afforded every attention to the complaint of the petitioner, and had given him all the relief which they could, consistently with the prescribed forms of law.
The Petition was ordered to lie on the table.
Negociation for Forming a New Administration
, said, that previous to the withdrawing of the motion on the subject of an efficient administration, of which he had given notice for to-morrow, he wished to put two questions, the answers to which would enable him to judge whether he ought to withdraw that motion altogether, or to vary it in any sort. There was, he knew, seldom a person of any consequence in such an assembly as that, who had not what the French called a Double to represent him. To such person, if there was any such in the House, he wished now to put similar questions to those which had been put yesterday by an hon. gentleman to a right hon. gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby), whom he did not now see in his place, namely, "Whether up to that moment a proposition had been made to him or his friends by any person whatever, to form part of an administration, to which they had given a refusal on public or personal grounds?" &c. He assured the House that no man was privy to his intention of making the present motion, and therefore that no man to whom the present questions might be found to be addressed could justly be accused of feigning astonishment, as he understood, if report spoke truly, was the case last night, in requiring the reading and rereading to him of questions which had been framed in his own presence. He hoped he was not irregular or disorderly in alluding to the name of a noble marquis (Wellesley), and asking if any such refusal had been made to a proposition coming from him? The line of conduct to be observed by him to-morrow, should depend upon the answer he received from the right hon. baronet opposite.
declared, that he had no means of information on the subject alluded to by the hon. gentleman, and that the questions of that hon. gentleman might as well have been directed to any other member of the House as to himself.
begged to say a few words, as to an insinuation which seemed to have fallen from the hon. gentleman who spoke last but one, that a concert had existed between him and the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby), as to the questions put by him last night, to that right hon. gentleman. It was, no doubt, true, that he did lay before that right hon. gentleman copies of the questions he meant to put to him. (Hear, hear!) He told him, "these are questions which I intend to put to you, and will you answer them?"—He did so to the right hon. gentleman as he would have done to any other member of parliament, and he did so as a man connected with no party. He had no doubt, he knew whence the remark of the hon. member proceeded. It had been said in a print of this morning, that he (Mr. Wortley) had gone to the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby) and attended a meeting of his party. This he denied. He called upon the right hon. gentleman when five or six gentlemen were with him, and, being requested to retire into another room, declined doing so, but publicly stated the cause of his visit. If any of the gentlemen alluded to were now present, he begged of them to say whether the fact was not so. He declared that he was allied to no party whatever: in the steps he had taken in this important business, he had taken advice from no man.
said he had no wish to attribute any thing improper to the hon. gentleman. All he meant was to express his astonishment, considering how things really stood, at the extraordinary surprize at the questions put to him, affected by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby.)
said, after all that had passed on this subject, the House was still left in the dark, as to the intention of the hon. member. It would be better if he would tell the House, whether it was his intention to bring on his motion to-morrow or not; and if it was not convenient for the hon. gentleman himself, it no doubt would be convenient for other hon. gentlemen to have this information.
thought as to the cry raised against his right hon. friend (Mr. Ponsonby), as if he had affected surprize at the questions put to him last night, there was really nothing in it. His right hon. friend had not affected surprize, being, as he was, aware of the questions that were to be put to him; but had only desired that the questions might be repeated, in order that both they and the answers to be given to them might be the more clearly understood by the House. As to the fact, of the nature of the questions to be put to his right hon. friend having been previously communicated to him, that was a mode of proceeding which all parliamentary practice sanctioned; and it must seem to be a most unauthorized freedom to use with any member, to put a question to him, without using such a formality.
having moved that the motion, of which he had given notice, for Wednesday, be read, stated, that he had no hesitation in saying, that his object in the motion, was to facilitate as much as in him lay the commission which he understood had since been given to lord Wellesley, to form an administration.
repeated the question he had already put to the hon. gentleman, namely, whether in the present state of the country he would think it proper to make the motion of which he had given notice for to-morrow? To this question, he submitted, the hon. gentleman had given no answer, but had only stated, that any motion he should make would go to facilitate any arrangement of the noble marquis, to whom had been confided the task of forming an administration. This was no satisfaction to the House, as to the question whether the hon. gentleman would or would not bring forward his motion to-morrow.
had no hesitation in saying, that he thought it extremely improbable he should make the motion of which he had given notice, to-morrow; but at this time he thought it not inconvenient that something should remain on the orders to enable any gentleman who chose it to agitate a question of so much importance to the country. His wish was to preserve to himself and to others, the possibility of making such a motion, not to pledge himself that it should actually be made. Should a concert be formed amongst a number of men to force the sovereign to receive into his councils obnoxious ministers, he should be one of those who would resist such a measure. He should not be one of those who would say, that the sovereign had not a right of challenge against any noxious individual or individuals of the kind he had alluded to. As the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby) had shewn that he had no objection to interrogatories, he wished to reserve to himself the power of putting some to him to-morrow if he should see occasion. He again repeated, it was highly improbable he should bring forward his motion to-morrow, but still it was not impossible.
The House then resolved itself into a committee on the Petitions against the Orders in Council.