Commons Chamber

said, he had some time since brought forward a motion for an Address to the Prince Regent; and that the transactions of the last three weeks had been the consequence of that Address. He now hoped that the House would agree with him in the view which he should take of these occurrences, and in the motion which it was his intention to found upon them. His object in the former instance, had been to express the sense of parliament, that the government formed on the death of Mr. Perceval was not such as could expect to possess the confidence of the House and the nation. Three weeks had passed away from that period, and things were precisely at the same point; precisely the same government conducted the public affairs. He thought, therefore, that it was the duty of the House of Commons to obtain all the information in their power, and then to address the Prince Regent with their opinion on the course which ought to be pursued in this important crisis. In order to a clearer comprehension of the subject, he would take a review of the last three weeks. For the first ten days after the Address of the House, no advance was made towards the formation of an administration; some explanations, indeed, had passed between particular parties, but no progress was made in the constitution of a government. It was matter of regret that such delay had taken place, and to it much of the subsequent embarrassment was certainly referable. Of the negociation of lord Wellesley with lords Grey and Grenville, he would merely say, that it came to nothing; and he was free to say, that it was of such a nature that he had at the time thought that it must, and ought to come to nothing; for instead of leading to the formation of an efficient administration, it would have led to nothing but disagreement and disunion. Last Thursday, however, lord Moira had received an unlimited, unconditional power from the Prince Regent; and had expressed to lords Grey and Grenville, that all the great and leading questions of policy would be laid at their feet, to be managed at their will. Lord Moira, however, would not agree to what was insisted upon as a preliminary condition—the regulation of the houshold: and on this account it appeared, that those noble lords were content to throw away all the great and darling objects of their political wishes, for the accomplishment of which they had been contending during the whole of their lives. This appeared to him to be unjustifiable. Their excuse, indeed, was their jealousy of the influence which they-supposed existed somewhere, over which they could have no controul. The conduct of the noble lords seemed to him the very way to strengthen that influence; for suppose the persons alluded to, (he meant no personalities) were to be turned out, would they then be less able to exercise this supposed predominance; or would they, for being turned out, be less inclined to exert it? and was such conduct a proper or likely method of conciliating the mind of him whom it must be most wished to conciliate; especially when all their great leading principles of policy were allowed them in full discretion? When these great principles, in which, according to the view of the subject entertained by the noble lords, the fundamental interests of the country were concerned, were granted to them, they ought, according to his idea of the matter, to have made a peace offering of all the rest.

So much on private grounds; but on public grounds, was it wise,—was it politic to hold up such an implied charge to the public,—to promulgate such a stipulation? What proof had they,—what proof had the public, of the truth of such an implication? Was it because the noble lords were not called into office at the beginning of the Regency? He believed that the nation at large then approved of their exclusion. Was it because they were not called to the government of affairs, when the restrictions expired? Even then a great part of the nation were not displeased at their non-admission: and he thought, now that an opportunity had offered, these noble lords had debarred themselves, by their own conduct, from becoming the administration of the country. He said not this from any disrespect to those noblemen: with lord Grey he had the happiness to be personally acquainted; and no man could entertain a higher idea than he did of the superior ability and exalted honour of that noble lord: he thought highly also of lord Grenville, although he had not the honour of any personal acquaintance with him; and it was with regret that he saw the nation deprived of the services of such men; but in such circumstances as had occurred—circumstances occasioned by their own act, it was impossible the country could have had their aid.—What followed? Lord Moira resigned his powers, and by that noble lord's advice, the Prince Regent called in once more the assistance of his old servants. With this he was not satisfied, because he imagined a stronger administration might be formed, and he wished to see the state have the advantage of the talents of all parties. If he had seen a fair prospect that the Prince Regent might be advised to avail himself of the services of all who could be brought together to act on the same principles, he should not have made his present motion; but as it was, he hoped for the concurrence of the House in the Address which he should now move; but if he failed in that object, at least he should have the satisfaction to know that he had done his duty. He then moved, "That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, to express our regret that the expectations held out in his Royal Highness's most gracious Answer to our Address of the 21st of May have not yet been realized; to assure his Royal Highness of our determination to support, with undiminished zeal, such measures as may appear calculated to ensure prosperity at home, and respect abroad; but, at the same time, humbly to represent, that (consistently with the duty we owe to our sovereign and our constituents), we can no longer defer the expression of our earnest entreaties, that his Royal Highness would form, without delay, such an Administration as may be entitled to the support of parliament and the confidence of the nation."

thought this Address implied an indirect censure upon the person whose duty it was to form an administration, when in fact no such censure was deserved. He would ask, whether the executive government had not used every possible means to form an administration?—In one instance, the negociation had gone off, because the noble lords thought they would not possess a sufficient preponderance in the cabinet, while, in the other, although lord Moira had received unlimited powers, and after it been settled that every place in the cabinet should be at his and his colleagues disposal—it went off, because those noble lords could not obtain the power to dismiss the houshold. Under these circumstances, he must say, the executive branch of the government was not to blame. His hon. friend had said, that they were now come back to the same administration which they had had in the first instance. This was certainly the fact; yet, after the pains that had been taken by his Royal Highness to form an administration, in obedience to the wish of parliament, it was not unreasonable to suppose that he would, without being solicited so to do, lose no opportunity of strengthening the government by every means in his power. He did hope, that the abilities of his right hon. friend (Mr. Canning) would have been added to the ministry, and he had to regret that this hope had not been realized. Upon the whole, he could not help deprecating the adoption of any measure, which by throwing an imputation upon the executive government, might again throw the country into confusion and embarrassment, and in conclusion, he remarked, that the difficulty experienced in forming a government accordant with the feelings of the people, was the most striking proof that could be adduced of the transcendant talents of Mr. Perceval, whose unhappy fate had created such universal sorrow, and whose situation it was found so difficult to fill.

rose for the purpose of moving an amendment. He observed, that both the hon. gentlemen who had last spoken, had directed their arguments to subjects, which, in his opinion, were unfit for discussion. They did not enter into a view of the situation of the country, but talked of the quarrels which had taken place in the negociations to which they had alluded, with which the House had no business to interfere, and which had been made known to the public more for the convenience of the parties concerned, and for the gratification of their feelings, than with any intention to benefit the country.—No mention had been made of the melancholy state of the country, or of its interests being again entrusted to the hands of those who were known from experience to be inadequate to the direction of public affairs, and from whom all the evils with which it was overwhelmed were known to have sprung. If it was known, as he believed would not be denied, that this was the case, he thought the House ought plainly to express that feeling to his Royal Highness, and not lose time in presumptuously deciding upon who was fit or who was not fit to form part of the government. If there was one maxim more prominent than another, in the principles of the constitution of this country, it was that the appointment of the ministers of the crown belonged to the first magistrate. With these appointments the House had nothing to do, and any attempt which might be made to dictate the nomination of particular individuals was highly unconstitutional. The hon. gent. (Mr. Wortley) had, however, proceeded to pass censures upon two noble lords for their refusal to form part of the proposed administration. He had yet to learn, that it was incumbent upon any man to undertake a responsibility, or to accept a situation, which it might be thought his abilities qualified him to undertake, and more especially in times like the present. He conceived it was in the breast of every man to refuse or accept such appointment as he thought proper, without justly being exposed to the censure of any person whatever.—It was not a little extraordinary, that the noble lords (Grey and Grenville) had been for five years past reproached for their anxiety to get into office, but the tables were now turned, and there was nothing but censure for refusing office. This he thought was rather a harsh measure of justice to deal out to them. Then the hon. gentleman stated, however, that an interval of ten days had occurred, during which nothing had been done, and to which he attributed a considerable share of the disappointment which had since prevailed, when he admitted, moreover, that the offer originally made to those noble lords, if accepted of by them, could only have led to disunion. He was surprised at the inference to which the hon. gentleman had ultimately come. These were circumstances which, to his mind, rather went to prove that there was something latent in the whole of the negociation, and that there was something covert—which did not meet the eye, and which would not suffer those noble lords to accept of office in a manner honourable to themselves or advantageous to the country. Such was his view of the case, as made out by the statement of the hon. member. These, however, were not the real grounds on which a judgment as to the propriety of the motion submitted to the House could, according to his conception of the matter, be satisfactorily formed. Whether the noble lords were justifiable or not in the course they had thought proper to pursue, he did not mean to discuss, nor did he conceive it of any importance to the country. It appeared to him that the real consideration was the state of the country, its finances, and its foreign relations. These were the topics to which the attention of the House ought to be directed, and which it was impossible to contemplate without feeling the utmost alarm. And these were the circumstances which should be exposed to his Royal Highness in their true colours, in a firm and dignified manner, and not in the feeble language which characterised the Address that had been proposed. In that, not one word of the commercial or financial difficulties of the country had been adverted to—difficulties which were too prominent and too heartrending to escape the observation of the most unthinking individual. It was impossible not to be alarmed at perceiving,. that the country was still in the hands of the persons who had brought it into that state. If the House looked to the returns of commerce for the last twelve months, it would be found that there was a falling off in the official value, of ten millions in the manufactures of the country exported, while in the real value the diminution was not less than 16 millions, In the finance department the decrease was proportionately great. The produce of the taxes had decreased three millions, while the expenditure had increased five millions; and all this from the measures of men, into whose hands it was proposed to again place the welfare and prosperity of the country, into the hands of men who had been twice voted out of office for their incompetency. At the beginning of the war it was known that the same men were in power—they might not, indeed, hold the same offices, but they certainly occupied the same ad- ministration, and their collective talent, whatever they possessed, was the same; and when it was considered, that the self same individuals were again voted out of office within the last three weeks, upon the ground of incompetency, he felt confident the House would agree with him in the strongest expressions of disapprobation at their re-appointment. Under this conviction, he begged leave to move as an amendment, that after the word "That," words to the following effect should be inserted:—"An humble Address be presented to his Royal Highness, expressive of the deep regret of the House, that the Address of the 21st of May, praying his Royal Highness to form a strong and efficient administration, had ultimately failed of effect; stating that the House felt great concern, that after the answer of his Royal Highness, the same persons who had already experienced the disapprobation of the country, should be again intrusted with the management of public affairs; that it was the bounden duty of the House, under these circumstances, to again address his Royal Highness, and to endeavour to impress upon him the perilous situation of the realm, after all the sacrifices which had been made by his Majesty's subjects, during a series of new and unexampled difficulties; that it appeared that the trade and commerce of the country had been considerably reduced, and that the produce of the taxes had declined; and that while the national resources had been thus impaired, the public grievances had been aggravated by the depreciation of the current coin of the realm, and the substitution of a paper currency, of no value whatever, all of which it was impossible to contemplate without a full conviction, that it would ultimately tend to a national bankruptcy; and, finally, imploring his Royal Highness, for the sake of the prosperity of the country, and the safety of the crown, to appoint such men as were able, by their firmness, wisdom, and prudence, to reform existing abuses, restore the commerce, economize the resources, and support the honour and independence of the nation."

rose also to propose an amendment. The one offered to the House by the noble lord alluded to such a variety of topics, that, although he concurred in opinion with the noble lord on most of them, if not on them all, still he did not think prudent for the House thus to decide upon those most important sub- jects by one vote, without previous discussion, and to rush into the presence of the sovereign with so multifarious a request. As to the motion of his hon. friend opposite, he had heard it with a surprize mixed with regret; it fell short, indeed, of his former address, and short of public expectation. The state of the country was such as to require not palliatives, but strong and efficient measures, and to those alone the House ought to direct their attention. His hon. friend, and the hon. gentleman under the gallery (Mr. Cartwright), had introduced in their speeches a great variety of matter, quite extraneous to the subject, and with which the House was totally unacquainted. He was not sure that this was strictly parliamentary; but he was convinced that the House had nothing to do with negociations said to have taken place, or with the intrigues by which they were said to have been defeated. All this might be proper food for public rumour, but could not be entertained by the House. All for the House to do was, to enquire into whose hands the authority of the state had devolved, and whether or not they were able to wield it with effect. But three weeks ago the then ministers had been, by a vote of the House, declared incapable of governing the state: they had acquiesced in the verdict, by resigning their places the day after; and the House might judge what had been his astonishment, when on entering the House this day he saw the same faces, and found the very same men occupying the very same places from which they had been driven by the recent vote of the House. Among them he saw, too, the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose nomination to that office had been the very ground of his hon. friend's original motion; and he really could not reconcile all those inconsistencies. He had, besides, a particular objection, to have the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Vansittart) at the head of the finances of the country, as he recollected his recorded opinion of the last session on the state of the present currency, that prolific source of so many evils. But why should he look at particulars? He had already mentioned the vote of the 21st of May last; eight years ago those very ministers to whom the reins of the empire were then entrusted, had been declared incapable of holding them, by an unanimous vote of the House; and even Mr. Fox and Mr. Pitt had laid aside their long rivalship, to save their country by uniting to drive them from the places they were totally unable to fill. It was monstrous to see men thus held repeatedly to scorn and ridicule, brave public opinion, and return into power again. How would the representatives of the people reconcile their constituents to the line of conduct which it was proposed to them to adopt? Three weeks ago they had told the country that those men were incompetent to govern, and now they were called upon to vote for a motion which would, in fact, rivet them in their places, for such was the obvious tendency of the Address now proposed by his hon. friend. He could never reconcile such a line of conduct to his principles, and he would, in consequence, before he sat down, propose an amendment more consonant with the interests of the country, and better calculated to enable it to meet the present exigencies of the times. Before, however, he came to that point, he would take the liberty of reproving the personalities in which his hon. friend had indulged; at the same time he gave him full credit for sincerity and candour, he was convinced that he was sincerely desirous of seeing at the head of affairs the best ministers that could be procured under the existing circumstances; yet he would beg of him to look at the state of the country, and to see into whose hands the government had fallen. If his hon. friend had done so before, he was confident, from his impartial view of men and measures, that even for the sake of consistency, he would have submitted to the House a motion far different from the one he had introduced on that night. For his first Address, which the House had adopted, obviously meant that the then ministers, now returned into power, were unfit for their situations. If this first step, which he had himself suggested, was not followed up, the whole country would ring with charges of inconsistency and pusillanimity against the House of Commons. They would be accused of shrinking from their duty, by not daring to approach with the truth that high quarter, which nothing but the truth ought to approach. Under these circumstances, he should feel it necessary to move another Address by way of amendment, that proposed by his hon. friend being in his opinion totally unsuitable to the situation of the country. He concluded by moving an amendment, which was in substance—"That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, expressing the regret the House had experienced on seeing that the hope held out by his Royal Highness's most gracious Answer to the Address of the House, had not been realized; assuring his Royal Highness of the determination of the House to support all measures his Royal Highness's government should think necessary to adopt for the interest and security of these realms, but entreating his Royal Highness to lose no time in forming such a strong and efficient Administration as might be calculated to meet the exigencies of the times."

On this Amendment being handed to the Speaker, he informed the noble lord, that as there was then another Amendment before the House, the one he had just proposed could not be then entertained; but if he gave notice of it, it might be put to the vote in another stage of the discussion.

, adverting to the vote of the House of the 21st of May, on which so much stress had been laid, maintained that on that occasion the House had been taken by surprise. No time had been given to cool the irritation of party feelings. The motion of the hon. gentleman, who had that night proposed the Address, had been introduced after a day's notice only. This had prevented many gentlemen, who would have shared in the discussion, from attending in their places, and had the sense of the House been fairly taken on the subject, he was confident that the result would have been very different. He did not speak from party spirit, he was unacquainted with the members of the Administration except with a gentleman who no longer formed a part of it. But he believed, that ministers were as good and as likely to be efficient in their places as the hon. gentlemen opposite. They were not perhaps quite so good as he could wish—but they had experience in their favour, and this, at least, could not be denied to them. They had raised their country's glory to a pitch altogether unexampled, and their services in general were entitled to the gratitude of the nation. This was not, indeed, the language of the noble lords who had sought to avail themselves of their early habits of intimacy with the Prince, in order to grasp at his power; but had they been acquainted with human nature, or even with history, they would have known that those confidential friends of hereditary princes, who encouraged and supported them in opposition to their sovereign, were uniformly discarded when those princes came into power. He attributed no improper motives, no sinister views to those noble lords, who were styled the Prince's early political friends; but the way the Regent broke those bonds did, in his opinion, the greatest credit to his sentiments. Had he not been able to resist that early influence, he would have shewn himself unworthy of the place he was called upon to fill; he would have shewn himself deficient in that firmness which is the true characteristic of a great king. As members of parliament they were bound to support the Prince in the exercise of his just prerogatives, and give him sufficient time to settle his government. But party spirit, in their eagerness to grasp at power, would not suffer these cool proceeedings. He was not indeed completely satisfied with the present Administration; he especially found fault with their abandonment of the line of conduct which they had hitherto pursued towards the Roman Catholics, and he hoped they might not have bitter reason to repent the change. But because he did not totally approve of them, it did not follow that he felt himself authorised to interfere with the prerogative of the executive government. He would, in consequence, support the present ministers, in their general measures, when not contrary to his fixed principles; and this he would do, not from any private views, but from opposition to party spirit.

was not in the habit of taking up mach of the time of the House. He would simply put to the recollection of the hon. members, that in the year 1784, his Majesty had been driven by the violence of party spirit into nearly the same situation in which the hon. gentlemen opposite seemed to wish to place the Prince Regent. The consequence was, that his Majesty dissolved the parliament, and confidently appealed to his people. The returns of the ensuing elections proved that appeal had not been made in vain, and addresses poured from all quarters, manifesting the firm resolution of maintaining the crown in the exercise of its just and undoubted prerogative, that of appointing its ministers. [Here the hon. gentleman read one of those addresses from the county of Bucks.] He approved of the constitutional principle, that the House of Commons were bound in duty to represent to the King the misconduct of any minister, and to ask for his removal; but if they went one step further, if they attempted to dictate to the crown the choice of its servants, this best of governments would soon be changed from a limited and tempered monarchy, to a turbulent democracy. On those principles he would support ministers as long as they should deserve support by their conduct.

observed, that although the negociations about the formation of a ministry were not exactly before the House, yet they were so well known, that any gentleman alluding to them might claim some indulgence; and after what they had seen in the course of the last three weeks, the House ought to be careful how they unsettled the government of the country again. After having animadverted on the conduct of the opposition, he begged of the House to consider in what situation the Prince would be placed, should the amendment proposed by the noble lord be adopted. His Royal Highness would be, in fact, compelled to surrender the power of the throne and the prerogative of the crown at the mercy of an oligarchy. He did not pretend to say, that it was improper that ministers should have the nomination of the officers of the household; but this was nothing in comparison with the essential rights the Prince would be forced to surrender, should the amendment of the noble lord be adopted. The Regent would be put completely at the mercy of two noble lords, without any stipulations whatever. He was sure that the noble lords alluded to, and their friends would use that paramount influence for what they conceived to be the good of the country; still he could not consent to degrade so far the executive government. He admitted, that the House had an undoubted right to remonstrate against the appointment of an obnoxious minister, and, in other circumstances, he would not, perhaps, object to a motion of that description, but seeing the strong influence of party spirit exerted against the undoubted prerogative of the crown, he could not possibly think of entertaining such a motion at present. Adverting to the conduct of the marquis Wellesley, he expressed his approbation of it, and reprobated those personal animosities or objections to act with him, which had deprived the country of his services. The salvation of the country was at stake. The present ministers had conducted the nation to the brink of ruin. Little hope could now be indulged of the repeal of the Orders in Council, and if something were not attempted to alleviate the general distress, every species of disorganization, short of actual insurrection, was to be apprehended. Nevertheless, considering the proposed interference with the executive authority as highly unconstitutional, he should oppose both the original motion and the amendments.

observed, that when the Address was voted, he was one of those who concurred in opinion with the member for Yorkshire, and on the present occasion, when there was most assuredly a great sensation excited in the country in consequence of that vote, it became the House to exercise the transcendent power with which they were invested with discretion. He had heard from some gentlemen that there were extreme cases when it was necessary to interpose between the crown and the government, and by a vote of parliament prevent the government of the country from being placed in the hands wholly of the crown. There could not, however, be a more inconvenient mode of proceeding than in following up an extreme case of the kind alluded to, by putting a negative on the prerogative of the crown. It had been said, that this House had come to a vote upon the necessity of forming an efficient administration upon an extended scale. Undoubtedly they had done so, but under what circumstances? a notice of the motion had been only given the preceding day. At that time an opinion was entertained, that the delay of a few minutes in coming to the vote, would have given a majority against the motion. If gentlemen adverted to what passed on the same evening shortly after the division, they must be satisfied that such would have been the fact. If however, extreme cases were to be entertained, the very dictation to the head of the executive was in effect, taking the whole of the government into the hands of parliament. But the House would recollect, that though one branch of the legislature had expressed an opinion upon the subject, the other branch had not expressed any opinion at all; they had not stated their disapprobation of the ministry.—Was that House then to adopt the language of controul? A noble lord had put the question on a much better ground for discussion than the mover of the Address. He deprecated the conduct which brought before the public the proceedings in the negociations for forming an extended administration, as highly inexpedient and on other occasions as tending to embarrass the government. Nor was he aware how those proceedings could have been published without infringing the oath which some of the parties had taken, as privy counsellors, which oath of course precluded them from divulging any thing which passed in the council. It was true, that the letters which had been published were not actually proceedings of the council, but they were the foundation of proceedings in the council. The simple question now under consideration was, whether the present ministers could be safely trusted to manage the affairs of the state? And in deciding upon that question, the noble lord had contended, that a vote of this House had driven them from office in 1803, and therefore that they were not competent to manage the resources of the country, to carry on the war, and wield the energies of the state in this moment of peril and of difficulty. He allowed to the noble lord, that the country was in a deteriorated state; but how much better was its condition than that of other countries, which since the time alluded to, had been wrested from the domination of the lawful sovereigns. England had, under the administration decried by the noble lord, defended the cause of the peninsula with credit to herself; and if it was proper to defend that cause, of necessity great expences must have been incurred, for great exertions were called for. He would not vote either for the Address of the hon. gentleman, or for the Amendments of the two noble lords; thinking the interference of parliament incompatible with the principles upon which he had generally acted. At the same time, he did not mean to say, that he would oppose any Address which contained expressions that to him appeared unobjectionable. He expressed his entire confidence of the character of lord Moira, as a man of the strictest integrity and most unblemished reputation.

entered his protest against the doctrine of an hon. baronet (sir T. Turton), that an unrestricted influence granted to ministers would lead the country into an oligarchy. On the contrary, he insisted, that if lord Moira's propositions had been acceded to, and if lords Grey and Grenville had accepted office without demanding the removal of the great officers of the houshold, the government of Great Britain would indeed have been consigned to a desperate and noxious oligarchy. It had been said, and truly, that the constitution knew nothing of secret influence—but, unfortunately, recent experience had shewn, that it prevailed in the highest quarter to a most dangerous extent, thwarting and over-ruling measures calculated for the benefit of the state. The same influence had been secretly at work during the greater part of the reign of his Majesty; it had precipitated the nation into the American war; it had drawn down upon our heads calamities which might have been easily averted, and had now reduced us to the verge of bankruptcy. Perhaps at this moment it was more than usually active, and was supported with more than usual solicitude; it formed the cabinet of the Prince, who ruled the cabinet of the state, over which no power had controul: when the parliament had destroyed the cabinet of the state, the sovereign might retreat to his own secret cabinet, and there, as in a citadel, bold out against his besieging subjects. Should parliament sanction such a principle, the constitution would receive a wound that would soon prove fatal to its existence. Allowing that it belonged to the crown to appoint its own servants, did it not follow as a matter of course that those ministers should be adequate to their duties? And if such men were not selected, would it be denied that it was the duty of the House to interpose, to take care 'ne quid respublica detrimenti caperet?' What was the present government, if indeed that might be so called which had not the ability to rule? The last administration was composed out of the relics and dregs of the government of Mr. Pitt, which, when voted incapable, wisely relinquished office. Secret influence restored them, and Mr. Perceval was placed at their head: after his death the House of Commons again declared them incapable, they again prudently resigned, and again had secret influence restored them. What confidence was the country to repose in these relics of relics, these dregs of dregs, this rump of the rump of an administration? An hon. gentleman under the gallery (Mr. Montague) had expressed, with reluctance, his regret, that the influence of government was no longer to be employed against the Roman Catholics. Doubtless, the loss of the able support and disinterested vote of the hon. member would be sincerely regretted by ministers in their present state of infirmi- ty; but what did the statement of the noble lord on which this dissent was founded, amount to? To nothing less than a confession, that if the influence of government were employed, they could effectually resist any motion, even one which interested four millions of subjects, and which was supported by the general voice of all reasoning beings. Such an assertion was the greatest insult that could be offered to the nation, although the noble lord had made it with a tone and air of condescension, as if it had been a matter of favour and kindness. Recollecting the nature of the motion which the hon. gentleman had before submitted to and carried in the House, on the 21st of May, and recollecting the effect, or rather the no-effect, that had been produced by it, he was not a little surprised that he should this day come forward to throw cold water upon the Address he had previously suggested; because, surely, if the interference of parliament were before required, it was now doubly necessary, since the country had witnessed the ill disposition to succeed with which the negociations had been authorised. We were now reduced to such a condition, that the most desperate and dreadful events might be expected, if the House did not, in a firm and becoming tone, address the individual exercising the sovereign authority: for his own part, he was convinced, that the Prince Regent would do much better for the country if he were to appoint one man dictator without controul, than to patch up an administration of shreds and pieces, scarcely worth the picking up, from one party and from another, which might with greater ease be torn asunder and destroyed than it was fastened together. The sovereign was not reduced to this miserable extremity from a deficiency of persons of talent and honour fit to guide the helm of state, even in these tempestuous seas: such men were ready and willing to afford their assistance; but the baneful secret influence of which, not only he, but the whole nation complained, interposed itself between the country and its salvation.

began by asserting, that the history of the country, from the Revolution to the end of the reign of George the second, proved decisively, that an alteration of the houshold establishment had never taken place with a change of ministry. Latterly in the present reign the practice had been changed. With respect to secret influence, on which the last speaker had dwelt so much, he thought that, even among the most vulgar, the idea had long been exploded, and that the cry had been found to originate in the voices of those, who, having been turned out of office, complained that it was not accomplished by the mere volition of the sovereign. It had been maintained, that lord Bute for many years exercised this secret influence, but the fact was now fully contradicted. And did Mr. Pitt and lord Grenville when in power feel its effect? It was an empty cry, at all times destitute of foundation. He held in his hand a list of the household of the kings of England from the Restoration to the present time, to which, with the permission of the House, he would refer, and it would plainly appear, that the statement with which he set out was corroborated. The duke of Ormond was lord steward from 1660 to the Revolution, and from that time till 1707, it was held by the duke of Devonshire. The duke of Grafton occupied the office of lord chamberlain from 1724 to 1747, and for the same period no change had been made in the department of the lord steward. The same master of the horse continued during the whole reign of William 3. In the present King's reign, lord Talbot was lord steward from 1761 to 1781, and the duke of Montague was master of the horse from 1781 to 1790. During all these periods many changes of ministers had taken place, and party animosities ran remarkably high. He admitted that during the reign of George 3, the alterations had been more frequent, but it arose from a natural delicacy which induced the high officers of the houshold, from attachment to their parties, to resign their situations on a change of ministers.

With respect to the influence of the King in the cabinet, gentlemen seemed to have forgotten, that when lord North was compelled to retire in 1782, so much attention was paid to the feelings of the sovereign, that he was permitted to nominate lord Thurlow as a member of the cabinet, while the Shelburne and Rockingham parties introduced five members each. In the present instance, however, common decency seemed to require that the removal of the houshold should not be insisted upon. It was impossible for the House not to have heard more than insinuations of influence exercised over the Prince Regent from another quarter, which, if it had existed, would indeed have reflected disgrace upon his Royal Highness. Although no man of common sense countenanced such unfounded and malignant calumnies, yet they were sedulously employed— greedily caught at for party purposes; and it would have been giving an undue countenance to these reports, if the principal officers of the houshold had been driven from their situations. He was sorry to find, that he had been deceived in the characters of lords Grey and Grenville; he had given them credit (however mistaken their views) at least for patriotism. Recent transactions had dispelled this pleasing illusion, for it now appeared, that notwithstanding they strenuously insisted that their measures, and their's only, could preserve the nation from destruction, yet because they could not have all the offices of the houshold, as well as all the offices of the state, they refused to effect the salvation of their country. He conceived the inference to be incontrovertible, that they had forfeited all claim to the title of disinterested patriots; they contended, that concession to the Catholics was required to preserve the integrity, and perhaps the existence of the empire; they knew, that by accepting office they could grant that concession, and yet they refused to place themselves in situations in which they might be able so materially to benefit their country. He should have imagined that it was their bounden duty to have accepted the proposal made to them, even with all the mighty disadvantages, and the great obloquy to which they would have been subjected by the continuance of the houshold in its present state. The greatest evil that could have befallen them from the secret influence they seemed to apprehend, would have been the loss of office, which their duty to, their country called upon them to accept at any risk; and, if their measures possessed that importance which was attached to them, in retiring from office they would have retired with the confidence and the regret of the country. A noble lord (Milton) had said, that any arrangement would have been preferable to that now adopted. If the noble lord could point out any practicable mode of forming a more efficient administration, even though lord Moira should be prime minister, and the member for Bedford (Mr. Whitbread) should be Chancellor of the Exchequer, he would give it his assistance, because, in the present times, he deemed it his duty to support any government. The representatives of large commercial bodies must and would support government. The only persons who could carry on the government without a coalition, were the gentlemen opposite. Should they therefore be forced upon the crown? He was disposed to support ministers, because he could see at present no better course. The talents and integrity of lord Sidmouth were such, that both sides courted his support. That noble lord was not ready (to use a vulgar expression) to go through thick and thin. He had quarrelled with Mr. Pitt, by refusing to sanction the additional grant to the duke of Athol. With respect to his retiring from office, at a time when he was in full possession of the confidence of his sovereign, and had also a majority in parliament, he had been told by his relative, the late Sir W. Pulteney, that lord Sidmouth had said, if Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox should be closely linked together, by their opposition to government, he saw the King would be unable to preserve the rights of the crown: he therefore chose to retire at an early stage, that Mr. Pitt might form an exclusive administration. It was universally admitted, that the finance had been managed with great ability and success under that government, and as to its leading members having been, as stated, twice convicted of incapacity, the fact was, that they acted with great modesty in both instances, and went out, which it was impossible for them to avoid. Mr. Fox and lord Grenville were then tried, and what was this but an experiment, and how had that experiment succeeded? Would their warmest friends venture to say, that their character as statesmen stood as high on leaving office as when they entered on it? He would refer the House to their expedition to the Dardanelles, to their continental policy, to the rapidity with which they went to war for Hanover. He felt in himself in no degree any thing like party-spirit, and had endeavoured on all occasions to square his political conduct by public opinion. He confessed he could see but small foundation for better hopes in any change of ministers, although he never had been very friendly to the principle of our Orders in Council, which he thought interfered too much with the necessary freedom of trade, and sincerely wished that a more conciliatory policy should be adopted towards America.

observed, that he merely wished to express the opinion he enter- tained of the conduct which had been observed by the noble lords (Grey and Grenville), whose names had been so often introduced into the discussion. Men of independent principles alone, and of very conspicuous political talents, ought to form the administration of the country, but it might very frequently fall to their lot to restrain their desire of holding office, unless they could do so with advantage to the country. Those noble lords had a part to perform which required the utmost consideration—for they had to evince their readiness to make every exertion for the service of the country, and to balance the acquisition of power against the abandonment of principle. The refusal of office was a crime which few were guilty of—it was not to be frequently found in the annals of the country. But it should be recollected, that, when gentlemen accepted of office, they did so with a view to serve the country as well as to exalt their own reputation; and to enable them to do this, it must be rendered evident, that they had the confidence of the sovereign—for if they were to be controuled in the administration, it would be better that they should not accept of it. A minister was he, who was possessed of the confidence of the sovereign and of the parliament; but if he was excluded from the one or the other, he was no longer such a minister as was recognized by the constitution. If the two noble lords in question were of opinion, that the appointment of the household was necessary to the strength of the government—if they thought that the existence of two cabinets, the one responsible, and the other not responsible, was not consistent with the well-being of the state, then had they acted wisely, honourably, and disinterestedly, in not taking power without the confidence necessary to enforce it. He did not now enquire whether the objections or opinions of the noble lords were well-founded, but he maintained this, that if they conceived an undue influence to exist, they had acted rightly in declining office. He lamented most sincerely that such had been the result of the late negociations, from a conviction of the great talents and integrity of those noble lords, and of the good consequences which were likely to result from their acceptance of office, but he could not condemn a resolution founded upon principle. Whatever might be the opinions entertained upon the topics which were treated as the basis of the negociations, he thought that if there remained a possibility of concord, it were better that those differences should not be animadverted on. It appeared to him that all the noble persons engaged in the negociation, lords Grey, Grenville, Wellesley, and Moira, had acted most honourable, frank, and candid parts, and had shewn the utmost disinterestedness. With regard to a noble lord (Sidmouth), who he understood would fill an important office in the state, he believed him to be a very honest and conscientious man, but he must also remember that that nobleman professed himself a decided enemy to the claims of his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects, and therefore he was not a character very likely to conciliate the people, or long retain the confidence of the sovereign. He was happy now, however, that the noble lord would not in future oppose those claims in his capacity of minister, as he did before he was compelled to relinquish his situation; but considering that the noble lord still stood pledged to oppose the emancipation of the Catholics in his individual capacity, and that he was now coming into a great office, it was for the House to consider, after the vote to which it had agreed, how far the noble lord was likely to conciliate the minds of all classes of people in the United Kingdom. From perusing the correspondence said to have lately passed, upon the subject of forming an efficient administration, he felt perfectly satisfied with the sentiments avowed by lords Grenville and Grey, while they declined accepting a part of a government in which they must act with some of the present ministers, and he felt persuaded that the public opinion went along with him. Had those noble lords acted otherwise, and accepted the offers which were made them, he should deem them as public men who had deserted the political principles which they professed through their former lives, and deserving of the most severe reprehension of that House and of the whole country.

said, that it was his intention to occupy but a very short portion of the time of the House, because the question before them lay within a very small compass; and, indeed, he did not know that he should have trespassed upon their attention at all, if he could have prevailed on himself to have given a silent vote on a subject of such magnitude and importance. To begin with the constitutional part of the question—he held it to be the clear and undoubted doctrine of the constitution, that in parliament was vested the deliberative functions of the state, and in the crown the negative on the decisions of parliament; and that to the crown was allotted the appointment to the primary and subordinate offices of the state, but to the House a controuling negative, until the government should be placed in such hands as deserved their confidence, and that of the country.—This he took to be the constitutional doctrine, and this controuling power, so vested, the soul and spirit of the constitution. Having said so much upon the general question, he next came to the consideration of the immediate subject before the House. A vote had been passed in the House on a late occasion, that an Address should be presented to the Prince Regent, stating it as the sense of parliament, that the difficulties of the country required the formation of a strong and efficient government, thereby implying, that those persons who then constituted the government did not answer that description.—The noble lord and the right hon. gentlemen themselves had acknowledged this to be the intention of the House, by tendering their resignations and stating, that they held office only during the interim employed in procuring abler successors; and the Prince Regent had been pleased to say, in answer to the Address, that he would take its purport into his immediate consideration. Three weeks elapsed from that period in various and fruitless negociations; without any decisive step being taken, until at last one of the incompetent ministers came down to the House and informed them that fresh breath had been infused into the nostrils of the expiring cabinet. It was for the House to take care that the revival of that abdicated administration should not be the evidence of the extinction of the character and authority of the House. Of the negociations and communications which had taken place, he knew nothing—but this he knew, that a vote had passed that House denouncing the ministers as incapable and inefficient, and that those same ministers, those denounced and rejected ministers, were returned upon them again in all the plenitude and authority of office, claiming that confidence of which they had so recently been pronounced unworthy. He should offer but a few words on the negociations which were said to have taken place, and should pass over altogether, that which had passed between lord Wellesley, and lords Grey and Grenville, which appeared to him to be a sort of partition treaty, into which those noble lords could not enter but under circumstances of distrust and suspicion. With respect to the negociation between lord Moira, and the noble lords, the noble earl had stated, that his authority was unlimited with regard to the principles which were to form the basis of the negociation, but it seemed, notwithstanding, that when his noble friends asked whether the usual power with regard to certain offices were to be entrusted to the persons holding the principal share in the government, the noble earl expressed his dissent from entering into that subject as a preliminary arrangement. He would ask then, whether his noble friends would not have sacrificed their own authority, and that of the government, if they had consented to come into power on such conditions? The offices to which he adverted were the household offices; and he maintained that if his noble friends had acceded to the conditions proposed to them, they would have sacrificed that legitimate influence which, as ministers, it was their duty to retain and exercise, divested themselves of their constitutional authority over the department of the household, and have recognized and sanctioned the principle of dividing the powers of government, and of setting those powers against each other (hear, hear!). He well recollected, that in the course of the discussions on the question of the Regency, enough was said of the importance of the household, and the necessity of securing to the government the influence of that department. If it was thus mighty in the support of government, must it not be equally formidable when arrayed against it; and, in conjunction with another household, waging war against the responsible advisors of the crown? It should be remembered too, that when the minute of what had occurred between those noble lords on that occasion was laid before the illustrious personage at the head of the government, it was in the possession of that quarter, which could have removed the obstacle that opposed the formation of the administration. His noble friends were then reduced to the alternative of abandoning their principles, and conceding the household; or of declining power on the refusal of that preliminary. What was the result? They found that the household was retained, and those measures abandoned which formed the basis of the negociation with his noble friends. These measures were, conciliation to the Catholics, and the abandonment of the Orders in Council; but the same ministers were again appointed, and the consequence was, the abandonment of the one measure, and the compromise of the other. The question of the Catholic Claims was now, it seemed, to be turned adrift to every blast of opinion or of prejudice, and that by those very men who, only two months ago, had declared that it was the universal opinion of the cabinet, that the question could not be entertained under the present conduct and temper of the Catholics.—This new concession came from those very ministers who had come into power as the guardians of the Church, resting their claims to confidence upon the cry of "No Popery," which they had rung through the country, and on their determination to protect the state against the peril of allowing Catholic colonels to become generals; those very men now proclaimed their intention of opposing to the Catholic claims no longer the influence and authority of government. What must be the feelings at this transition of their partizans, the friends and champions of the Church? What said the right hon. the Judge of the Prerogative Court to this sudden change of policy? What was the impression which it made on the minds of the right hon. the Judge of the Admiralty Court, the member for Oxford, and his hon. colleague? Such were the circumstances under which these ministers, after drinking to the dregs the cup of political humiliation, now came forward, in defiance and contempt of that sentence of condemnation which had been passed upon them, as men the most fit and the most competent that could be found to conduct the country through its difficulties, and meet the awful exigencies of the present time. He would trouble the House no farther than to remind them that they stood before a solemn tribunal, that they were called on to discharge a solemn duty, and that in resisting the defeat and frustration of their former vote, they were exercising an authority which emanated from the people, on whose behalf alone, therefore, it could be justly exercised.

defended the government, which was the same, he contended, that had already experienced the confidence of the country. The question was, whether the present ministry was to have the support of parliament, or whether other persons were to be appointed? And the right hon. gentleman who spoke last, appeared to press the latter alternative as the only one which could be adopted by the House. The House, it was true, had come to a vote (he should not stop to enquire under what peculiar circumstances,) that an Address should be presented to the Regent, for a broad and extended administration; but having once come to that vote, were they never to be satisfied until a different administration was formed, but to go on addressing the executive power until such an administration as they wished was appointed? He was afraid, however, that it was impossible to put out of sight all that had passed (though it was not regularly before them) in the negociations which had recently taken place; and upon that ground it appeared to him, that the motion of the honourable gentleman, and the amendment of the noble lord, unjustly cast the imputation that sufficient exertions had not been made. As for the noble lords who had been engaged in the recent negociation, if they had a feeling that any secret influence existed, they had acted as became them in declining office, and he was far from casting any imputation upon them; but he did not understand that the negociations turned upon the question of the household, as had been stated by the right honourable gentleman (Mr. Elliott,) but that it was to be left as a matter of discretion and subsequent consideration. He had understood that all the high offices of the household were to be considered as vacant, and that no feeling of a private nature was to have any weight in their disposal.—Such was the nature of the proposed arrangement as he understood it, and it did appear to him that if those high offices were to be removed at once, it would put the sovereign in a state of degradation of the most humiliating nature, and the noble earl (Moira) felt it so, and acted accordingly. The question then was, whether by pressing forward thus, they could procure what they wanted? It was idle to talk of public talents being public property to be pressed into the service of the state, for no power existed to oblige any individual to accept of office, nor was it possible to form a broad and extended administration, without considering the public principles and feelings of the several individuals who were intended to compose it. Adverting to the attack made by a noble lord on the character and mea- sures of the administration of lord Sidmouth, he contended that they had neither been driven out nor left in a minority, but had yielded to the pressure of circumstances. With respect to the conduct observed by Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox on that occasion, he had only to observe, that it was no imputation against that administration that it could not stand against their influence. He wished to God that those illustrious characters were now living to exercise their great talents for the benefit of the country. He meant no disparagement to any hon. gentleman, when he said that there were no such men now; but they must look to those materials which they had, and decide between the present ministers and those whom it was proposed to supplant them with. With respect to the determination on the part of government to leave the Catholic Question open, he asked whether it had not been held out as the pride and praise of lord Grenville, when at the head of the government, that he had carried the abolition of the Slave Trade by making it a government question which Mr. Pitt had constantly refused to do? and, he argued from that, that there must be a legitimate influence vested in the government, which was made requisite by the nature of things.—If, then, it was supposed, that the influence of government would defeat the Catholic Claims, could there be any harm to try the question without it? Then it was said, that there was inconsistency in this line of policy, for that ministers had said some months ago, that the question should not be agitated at all. Was there then to be no change?—He was not now stating his own individual opinion, for he saw no practical view on which the question could be conceded, but he only spoke in justification of those who thought the Catholic Claims might be granted under certain limitations and restrictions, which might make it wholesome to grant them. It was then fit and proper to know what those limitations and restrictions were, in order to satisfy those who could not see them.—There was, therefore, no inconsistency nor dereliction of principle in those persons who had been placed by their sovereign in the administration of the government. He had offered thus much, in order to remove, as far as he could, the great impression made by the speech of the right hon. gentleman who had preceded him, on those who only saw their own mode of conducting this ques- tion in a favourable point of view. To revert to the question immediately before the House, he could discover no mode of proceeding left, but either to go on addressing the Regent, and telling him, "We do not care what has been done, or who is in fault;" or to rest satisfied with the steps which had been taken.

Unless the House saw a probability of forcing the attainment of what it appeared to wish, they would only be drawing themselves from one dilemma into another, to their own great inconvenience, and highly to the detriment of the public service.

said, that with respect to the negociation, he knew nothing further of it than was conveyed in the statement made by the noble lord who had so large a share in it; but with respect to the household he must observe, that it was the intention of himself and his friends to resign the situations which they at present held, previous to the new administration entering upon office. This intention of theirs was well known; they took every means of stating it in quarters from whence it had any likelihood of reaching the ears of the parties interested; and in particular they communicated it to a right honourable gentleman who took an active part in the negociation, and with whom all who knew him confessed it was a happiness to spend their private hours. In short, they took every means short of official resignation, to shew that they never wished to have any connection with them. And their intention originated in a wish to save the Prince Regent from that humiliation which he must have experienced from their being turned out of office—a humiliation which could only serve to convey an unfavourable impression throughout the country against the government. He did not speak in the name of one or two, but of all the officers of the houshold. They stated expressly to his Royal Highness, that they wished to resign, and not to be turned out; and all that they requested was, that they might know, ten minutes before certain gentlemen received the seals, that such a circumstance was to take place, that they might have it in their power to make a timely resignation. He declared on his conscience, before God, that their intentions were such as he had stated, and that the only principle by which they were actuated was to save the Prince from humiliation; for he could not but consider the attempt to make this change in the household a preliminary to entering upon the negociation, as calculated to humiliate his Royal Highness in the eyes of the country.

felt it necessary to apologise to the House for the length of time he should occupy in addressing them upon the present occasion. And, first, with regard to what had fallen from the noble lord who spoke last, he affirmed, that he heard it now from his lips, for the first time in his life. Who the right hon. gentleman was who had a large share in the negociation, and whom it was so great a happiness to pass private hours with, he knew not; but he could state with certainty, that nothing of the import of what had just fallen from the noble lord had been ever stated to himself or to my lords Grey or Grenville: they never entertained the most remote idea that such an intention as that intimated by the noble lord had ever been entertained. He must say, also, that no conjecture was ever more unfounded, than that of the noble lord, that the making the removal of himself and his friends from their situations a preliminary step to all discussion, was for the unbecoming purpose of humiliating that person who, above all others, ought to be honoured and respected. Who the right hon. gentleman alluded to by the noble lord, was, he knew not; but this he knew, that no such circumstance as that now mentioned, was ever communicated by any right hon. gentleman in the course of the negociation in which he bore a part. He was sure, that if any such circumstance had been communicated to any of his noble friends, they would not have forbore to make him acquainted with it. He believed most of the right hon. gentlemen with whom he was connected were at present in the House, and if he did not speak correctly, he begged he might be contradicted. There was some part of the noble lord's declaration which it would be inconvenient to advert to at this time, and which he should afterwards examine; he meant the principle, that the responsible advisers of the crown ought to have no controul over the houshold. He intended at present to confine himself to a statement of the circumstances which gave rise to and attended the late negociation for a change in administration. On the 21st of last month, the House, as was well known, came to a vote to request his royal highness the Prince Regent to appoint a strong and efficient administration. He appealed to the hon. gentleman opposite who made that motion. He would ask him on his honour, and no man in this House, or in the country, bore a character of more unsullied honour—he would ask him if there was any communication to him (Mr. Ponsonby) of his intended motion till the communication was made to the House? (Here Mr. Wortley signified that he had had no previous communication with Mr. Ponsonby.) This Address then did not proceeed from his side of the House; and he would say farther, it was not laboriously patronized by his side of the House. Only two members on his side spoke on that occasion, and he himself did not utter one word, thinking that he was the most unfit person in the world to deliver his sentiments on the subject. Had he spoken, the observation of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Bathurst) might then have been applied to him, that he wished to turn others out for the sake of getting himself in. That right hon. gentleman was wrong also, when he said, that two thirds of the majority on that night were of his side of the House. For his part, he thought he might safely say, that never was any great question discussed in that House, when so many of the members of the opposition were absent; and it was easy to account for their absence from the circumstance of the notice having been given only one day previous to the motion, and there being therefore no means of communicating it in time. The right hon. gentleman had said, in order to come to a right understanding of the subject, the House should be informed of the negociations which had taken place. Now he begged to say, for himself and his noble friends, that they wished to have no secret or reserve with respect to the share which they had in these transactions. The more these proceedings were known the more would they be gratified, and he thought he might add, the more would their conduct be approved of by the country. When the Address was moved, a wish was expressed by many members of that House, that a coalition of public men should take place for the purpose of procuring a strong and efficient Administration. This was the opinion of the House, and it was the wish of his noble friends and himself to carry the vote of the House into effect, as far as depended on them. It never was their wish to decline acting with any persons who coincided with them in entertaining such prin- ciples as they conceived necessary for the safety and welfare of the country. With all such persons they were desirous to unite; and in the first outset of the business, when the negociation was in the hands of lord Wellesley, his noble friends disclaimed all feelings of personality or aversion to unite with all those by whose assistance the government might be rendered more efficient. The public had a right to enquire into the conduct of public men; at all events, public men had to justify their own character to the public. He therefore hoped the House would bear with him longer than usual on this occasion, while he detailed to them those events that had recently taken place, and shewed how matters really stood. The first communication was made by lord Wellesley, at lord Grey's house, to lords Grey and Grenville, on the 23d of last month. Lord Wellesley stated, that he had received a commission from his royal highness the Prince Regent, to lay before him the plan of such an administration as he should deem best adapted to the exigencies of the country—that he wished to apprize his Royal Highness of the views of all parties previous to executing the commission, that the instructions of his Royal Highness went no further, and he wished to know if there was any objection on the part of his friends to two principles—the 1st was, that the claims of the Catholics should be taken into consideration with a view to a conciliatory adjustment of them; and, 2dly, that the war in the peninsula should be conducted on a scale of greater vigour than had hitherto been done. His lordship stated also, that Mr. Canning had made a similar communication to lord Liverpool. This was the commencement of the proceedings; and the House would observe, that lord Wellesley disclaimed having any au hority to form an administration, but confined himself merely to learning what were the views of the parties. On the 24th of May, without cavilling at lord Wellesley's want of authority, lords Grey and Grenville returned an answer expressing their willingness to give effect to the vote of the House of Commons—and as to the two points selected by lord Wellesley, stating that their opinion on the first was well known, and on the second, that no persons felt more strongly than they did the advantages which would result from a successful termination of the war in the peninsula; but that the mode of carrying on the war was a matter of policy which depended on many circumstances of a fluctuating nature, and which could be judged of only to men who had access to the official documents. In the present state of the finances of the country, however, they stated they could not conceal from lord Wellesley, that they entertained great doubts of the practicability of increasing the public expenditure. These were the first steps. Lord Wellesley had said that Mr. Canning communicated to lord Liverpool nearly the same as what had been stated to lords Grey and Grenville; and his lordship was pleased to send a copy of the Minute of this communication to his noble friends. On perusing that Minute they, however, perceived a considerable difference between it and the communication to themselves. It would be a waste of time to state what the difference was; the communication between them and lord Wellesley on the subject of it was attended with the happiest effect. The next paper of any importance necessary to be mentioned to the House—he was speaking in the presence of a right hon. gentleman who would correct him if he was wrong—was a minute of a communication made by lord Wellesley to lord Grey at his house, on the first of June. It was to be remarked, that all this time no advances had been made towards the formation of a ministry, and that no authority had been given for that purpose. Lord Wellesley in this Minute declared, that he had received full authority from the Prince Regent for the formation of an administration—that his Royal Highness had no wish to exclude any person who agreed in the principles formerly stated by him, which were in tended to form the basis of the administration—that lord Wellesley himself was to be first commissioner of the Treasury, and Mr. Canning and lords Moira and Erskine were to form a part of the cabinet; that if the cabinet consisted of 12 persons, lords Grey and Grenville should nominate 4, if of 13, 5 members of it. To that proposal, the first which had been made from authority, the noble lords, his friends, were not long in coming to a conclusion, and returned an answer on the day after to the following purport:

"Camelford House.

"My lord; we have received your communication, and are desirous of renewing the negociation. We are anxious to give permanent effect to the Resolution of the House of Commons, and no personal feeling shall prevent us accepting situations, where we might hope to serve his Royal Highness usefully and honourably. The proposition that has been made does not justify our acceptance of the offer: we are invited, not to discuss questions of great policy in the usual way, but we are recommended to introduce a limited number of persons to be included in the cabinet, of which an outline has been already made. We will not enter into an examination of relative opinion; to the principle of union and jealousy we object, and to the supposed balance of authority, in a cabinet so measured out by preliminary stipulation. We are convinced that it is necessary to possess the confidence of the crown, and the assurance of its support in all the healing measures which the country requires; no hope of such a possession is presented to us by this project for the formation of a ministry on an apparently new principle. We therefore request to decline all participation in a government to be constituted on principles that can only be productive of weakness in the administration of the public interests. We are, &c. GREY,

GRENVILLE."

This reply contained so complete an answer, that it became unnecessary for him to add any thing on the subject. The proposition was unlike every thing which had ever taken place on similar changes; it left no power to the parties to arrange the cabinet among themselves; it took for granted that there must be opposition among them. This was totally unlike the union which ought to prevail in a cabinet in these times. The first and vital principle of a cabinet, indeed, in any times, was the mutual confidence of its members, and the total absence of every thing like jealousy among them—an identity of interest and principle necessary to the carrying of any measure into effect. This answer having been delivered to lord Wellesley, nothing farther passed under the authority of the Prince Regent; but a noble earl, whom he should ever be proud to call his friend, on the 3d of June addressed a letter to lord Grey to the following effect:.

"Your and lord Grenville's answer to the communications that you received, seems to throw an oblique imputation on me. When I consider the principles contained in the proposal, I find it difficult to apprehend what is meant by a counteraction of interest. With respect to the number of persons to be introduced to the cabinet, it was adopted with a perfect regard to fairness. Mr. Canning was named as one of the members, because lord Wellesley would not accept office without him. In the spirit of fairness the proposition cannot go farther. I deeply lament that arrangements calculated to be so highly useful to the country, should go off on such points. (Signed) MOIRA."

This letter of lord Moira's was written in the spirit of frankness and candour; but it was totally unauthorised. It was answered by lord Grey in the following terms:

"Nothing can be more remote from the intentions of lord Grenville and myself, than to cast any imputation upon you. Whatever our objections to the proposal may be, we feel that they have no reference to any part of your conduct. We could not, on grounds consistent with our own honour, assent to the propositions, and as we feel the highest personal kindness for you, nothing could be more painful than to enter into any controversial discussion. (Signed) GREY."

On the 4th of June lord Grey received a letter from lord Wellesley approving of the explanation lord Moira had given of his motives, but stating that he was not aware that lord Moira was authorised to make any communication to his noble friends, and expressing his belief that neither of them had received any authority to renew the correspondence, a circumstance which he deeply lamented. After some further proceedings, under authority of the Prince Regent, a conversation took place on the 6th of June, between lord Moira and his noble friends, at which lord Erskine was present. A minute of the conversation was taken, which was afterwards read to the noble lords, who declared it to be correct. It was as follows:

"St. James's Place, June 6, 1812.

"Lord Moira stated to lord Grey and lord Grenville that he was authorised by the Prince Regent to consult with them on the formation of a new government; and satisfactory explanations having taken place between them, respecting such measures as appeared to be of the greatest urgency at the present moment, more especially with reference to the situation of his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects, and the differences now unhappily subsisting with America, and that lord Moira had received this commission without any restriction or limitation whatever being laid by the Prince on their considering any points which they judged useful for his service, they expressed their satisfaction with the fairness of this proposal, and their readiness to enter into such discussions as must precede the details of any new arrangement. As a preliminary question, which appeared to them of great importance, and which they thought it necessary immediately to bring forward, to prevent the inconvenience and embarrassment of the farther delay which might be produced, if this negociation should break off in a more advanced state, they asked, whether this full liberty extended to the consideration of new appointments to those great offices of the household which have been usually included in the political arrangements made in a change of administration? intimating their opinion, that it would be necessary to act on the same principle on the present occasion. Lord Moira answered, that the Prince had laid no restriction upon him in that respect, and had never pointed, in the most distant manner, at the protection of those officers from removal. That it would, however, be impossible for him (lord Moira) to concur in making the exercise of this power positive and indispensable, in the formation of the administration, because he should deem it on public grounds peculiarly objectionable. To this lord Grey and lord Grenville replied, they also acted on public grounds alone, and with no other feeling whatever, than that which arose from the necessity of giving to a new government that character of efficiency and stability, and those marks of the constitutional support of the crown, which are required to enable it to act usefully for the public service; and that on these grounds it appeared to them indispensable that the connection of the great offices of the court with the administration, should be clearly established in its first arrangements. A decided difference of opinion, as to this point, having been thus expressed on both sides, the conversation ended here with mutual declarations of regret. Nothing was said on the subject of official arrangements, nor any persons proposed, on either side, to fill any particular situations."

And now he would ask, with what authority the noble lord had said, the re- movals in the household, were greater than were ever meditated before in any change of administration? He hoped the House would indulge him in making some observations on this subject. The object of the vote of the House was to have an administration of strength and efficacy.—Now what would give strength and efficacy to the government? The first thing he conceived was a concurrence and agreement in principles—the next thing to give strength and efficacy, was a perfect union and good understanding among all the members of that administration—the good character of those members—the opinion which the country entertained of their ability, and above all, of their honour and integrity. But there was still another thing necessary to give strength to an administration, both in parliament and throughout the country, and that was, that it should be generally believed, such an administration possessed the full confidence of the sovereign whom they served. He knew not how any administration could be considered efficient, unless those marks were given which usually designated the confidence of the crown in those who were its servants. It had been said, that upon the second proposition such an arrangement might easily have been made as would have been of utility to the country, and honourable to his noble friends; and that they were not justifiable in breaking off the negociation on the principles avowed by them. Those who maintained this opinion had not certainly well considered either the principles of the constitution, or what its practice had been. He considered this principle to have been clearly established at the Revolution; a principle which gave occasion to the Revolution itself, against which the House of Stuart contended, and in support of which the House of Hanover was seated on the throne, namely, that the sovereign should be irresponsible, that the servants of the crown should be alone responsible, but that so long as they were the responsible servants of the crown, they were entitled to advise the crown in every point in which the royal authority was to be exercised. This was a fundamental principle.—Against it the House of Stuart long contended; and if the Journals of that House were looked into, they would often find that parliament were told not to interfere with the government, and that matters of state did not belong to their cognizance. It was, no doubt, a prerogative of the crown to dis- miss its ministers; but while they were employed, he would contend, the crown was bound to take their advice in the exercise of all its powers, and all its prerogatives. It had been said, that the regulation of the influence of the household did not properly belong to the servants of the crown, that the household was totally distinct from the state, and that ministers had no right to interfere with what were called the private servants of the crown. He knew that the practice since the Revolution had been never to change from some situations; and that the groom of the stole, and the master of the ceremonies, for example, were never changed under any administration. But it had always been usual to remove from Certain other offices. He had a list of them in his pocket, which he would read. Among these were the situations of master of the horse, lord steward, lord chamberlain, and vice-chamberlain, and the captain of the band of pensioners, who had been almost always changed on every new administration. To prove that this was the case, he would refer them to the removals which had taken place at different periods during the present reign, not when there was a mere shifting in the administration, as at present for instance, but when there was a complete change. After adverting to the particulars of the different removals which had taken place from the office of chamberlain and lord steward in 1762, 1766, 1783, 1784, and other periods of the present reign, he observed that he could go, if it were necessary, through all the other offices; but any person who would take the trouble to look into Beatson's Political Index, would find all the changes mentioned there. The noble lords, his friends, merely wished to know, if they were to be permitted to make the same changes which had usually been made, they asked nothing new, nothing extravagant, nothing but what had always taken place on similar occasions. The noble lord (Moira) thought this objectionable on public grounds. His noble friends also acted on public grounds. What would the public have thought of the confidence reposed in his noble friends if they had yielded that point, and had consented not to exercise the same power, which had been exercised by every former administration? Would they not, most properly, have been accused of having abandoned the great principle on which former administrations had been raised, that of possessing the patro- nage of the principal offices connected with the court? What could be more opposite to the spirit of the constitution than that those possessing such offices, should be enabled to give advice, without any responsibility attaching to them? Why should that system be varied, which, since the Revolution, had been acted on in a greater or less degree? Why should a new distinction be made between the offices of the court and of the government? Why should it be supposed, that when the monarch called individuals to his counsels, their power, which should embrace every thing useful to the state, should be circumscribed and restricted? It was indispensably necessary for the cabinet to connect with itself all the great offices of the court; for what could tend more to enfeeble an administration, than that certain high offices should be altogether beyond their controul? He had yet to enter upon observations much less pleasant to his feelings: but he could not shrink from them, though he hoped he should observe the utmost delicacy. He would ask, would the noble lords have been justified by any thing that took place in abandoning principles which had been invariably insisted on by their predecessors? One thing he would advert to: neither of those noble lords had been honoured with admission to the presence of the Prince Regent. The ordinary practice in forming an administration was, for the monarch to send for those whom he might intend to admit into the government, and to express his wishes on the subject; but here a noble lord was sent to them instead. There was nothing, indeed, either in the proposal or in the manner of its being offered, which indicated any thing like confidence on the part of the crown. In the second proposal, also, lord Moira was instructed to request an interview, and no access to the royal person was suggested. If, therefore, those noble lords felt, as undoubtedly they did feel, that the appearance of personal confidence was desirable in their acceptance of power, it must be acknowledged that no mark or token of that personal confidence was exhibited. How could they undertake a great and important part in an administration under such circumstances? The vote of that House had substantially pronounced the then Ministry to be unfit to conduct the affairs of government, and the noble lords had shewn the most cordial desire to co-operate in forming an administration that should be efficient and satisfactory to the country. But he wished to shew the difficulties they had to struggle with. The first principle that was proposed as the basis of a new administration, was the Catholic Question. Against that question there had been a majority in parliament twice during the present session. It was impossible, however, that his noble friends, consistently with the political principles they had invariably professed, could consent to form part of any administration unless they could carry that measure; and how could they enter into that one which was proposed with that brand upon them, of the absence of all personal confidence on the part of the sovereign? Why, in order to carry that measure, against the majorities in parliament, it was necessary that the cabinet should possess every mark, and every effective countenance which the confidence of the crown could bestow. There was another point also, that which was called the revocation of the Orders in Council, but which he should rather call the adjustment of our differences with America. On that question, too, a majority in parliament had pronounced a negative. Was it a light thing, then, for the noble lords to enter upon a career, where they might have to carry measures against majorities in parliament, without that necessary authority which resulted from the avowed confidence of the throne in their proceedings? With respect to the question of America, it was the more difficult, because this country had gone on so long in a particular course, and France had been so active in endeavouring to irritate her feelings on the subject, that the nicest management was absolutely necessary. That which could have been done, a year or two ago, in consequence of the change in the situation of that power, perhaps it would be now found impossible to execute. There was another question, that of economical reform, on which a difference of opinion also existed. The Bill of an hon. member (Mr. Bankes) on the floor, peculiarly connected with this subject, had received powerful opposition from those with whom his noble friends were called on to act. In the principal division on that Bill, which had not yet passed, it was carried by a majority only of eleven; and, how could similar measures be effectively introduced, if the great body of the administration were hostile to them? But notwithstanding these circumstances, which he begged to press upon the attention of the House, it had been said, that his noble friends were not justified in breaking off the negociation. He would say, however, and he would prove it, that the rupture did not originate with them. It had also been said, they should have receded from their pretensions, upon the large and general principle of public good. In the opinion of many, that doctrine might appear wise and reasonable. In his opinion it was no such thing. How would the public have felt had they so receded?—Would the nation have believed that they possessed the requisite power of ministers, when they could not exert it even in removing two or three officers of the household?—To that it had been replied, they might have come into administration, and reserved the exercise of their power upon that particular point alluded to, till they conceived some undue practices called for it; but, in his opinion, the only manly way was to tell at once what they meant to do. For, what an odious task would have been imposed upon them!—To deny them the power which had been granted to all their predecessors, under similar circumstances, and to leave them a power, the exercise of which was most invidious. That, however, was the power, and the only power offered to the noble lords, and they thought it most consistent with manly integrity and true candour, to refuse it. He saw a right honourable gentleman in his place (Mr. Canning), and to him he appealed, whether his noble friends had been actuated by any narrow or personal feelings; or whether they had not been most anxious to carry into effect the vote of that House consistently with what had been the political principles of their whole public conduct. If an union could have been formed without any dereliction of principle, with those who at present held high situations in the government, his noble friend would have been most anxious to promote it. He had stated all those particulars, that the House might be in complete possession of the whole transaction. It had been said that other negociations followed: but of them he knew nothing.

With regard to the motion then before the House, he would say a few words. For the character of the gentleman who originated it, although he was but little acquainted with him, and although he had the misfortune to sit on a different side of the House, he had the highest respect, and he felt, therefore, much pain at being compelled to vote against his proposition. His reason for so doing was, that it appeared to him the motion went to keep that administration still in power, which at his suggestion on a former evening, had been voted out, getting for it, however, any accidental aids which chance or intrigue might offer. The motion, indeed, was not very complimentary to the ministers, for it is still insinuated, that they needed strength and efficiency; but it did not go far enough in his apprehension. There never was, he believed, an instance, where that House had come to an affirmative vote upon the dismissal of ministers, (and as such they themselves understood it, for they tendered their resignations in consequence) and yet suffered the same administration to continue. He called it the same administration, for not one new man had joined it. Even the right hon. gentleman who had preceded him, though net regularly acknowledged as such, had long been recognised as a branch of the administration. And upon what grounds were parliament to be satisfied with this administration? Was it upon its strength and efficiency? Certainly not.—Was it upon the hope that it would adopt those conciliatory measures towards the Catholic subjects of the empire, which were so essential to its prosperity? He feared the hope would prove fallacious. Was it indeed, possible, that in the present administration, constructed as it was, the Catholic Claims would be advanced. One of the ministers, (lord Harrowby) had said—(Order! Order!) He begged pardon—he had heard that one of the ministers had said, in another place, that the present administration remained in office merely to save the Church and State from falling into the hands of those whose principles were known to be dangerous to both. He should like to know then whose opinions had changed upon the subject. He had gone over all the members of the cabinet in his own mind, and he could not find one. But they were told the Catholic question was not to be a cabinet measure. He would venture to say, however, that if it was not a cabinet measure it would never become a legislative measure. For his own part, he had never read in history, that any great measure had ever been carried but by a cabinet. Was it not also a singular fact, that the government of England should avowedly have no opinion upon a question which involved the des- tiny of four millions of people! He should be most happy, however, to find his opinions erroneous; he should rejoice to find the conduct of the cabinet contradict his predictions, and he would venture to say for himself, and he believed he might do it for those who did him the honour to act with him, that if there was one in that cabinet sincerely disposed to advance the Catholic claims, that one, be he who he might, would receive as zealous, as sincere, as unabated support from them as could be given.

He could not conclude without observing, that if his noble friends had lost power, it would be some consolation to him, should they be able, out of office, to carry those measures, for the support of which they had once lost their offices. He trusted, after what he had said, that the noble lords would stand acquitted of all desire to monopolize power, or of withholding their services for the good of the country, when they could conscientiously offer them. He hoped also, they would stand acquitted of every wish to hurt the feelings of any person, and especially of that illustrious personage whose station could not be too much respected and exalted: he knew, indeed, how far they were above it; he knew how much they were incapable of any such proceeding; and he trusted they would have an opportunity of stating it in another place, when their abilities would supply all that he had omitted.

observed, that the manner in which the right hon. gentleman had done him the honour to allude to him, and the share which it had been his lot, humble as he was, to take in the recent negociations, induced him to trespass for a short time on the attention of the House. The part which he had acted under a noble lord, in the course of these transactions, left him no option but to come to the defence of the noble persons, who were the immediate friends of the right hon. gentleman, against any charge of want of candour and liberality on their part; and he now entered on this discussion, with the same temper and moderation which his noble friend had displayed throughout the whole, for the purpose of stating the colour and nature of those transactions in which he was personally engaged, abstaining cautiously from any comment, and from any mention of himself beyond what might be inevitably forced upon him by the circumstances of the case. The right hon. gentleman had truly stated the wish, which prevailed on both sides, to have been to provide a strong and efficient administration. He had also justly characterised and defined wherein such an administration might be supposed to consist, at least in point of principle and public confidence. But there was one error under which it appeared to him the right hon. gentleman and his friends laboured, and that was, that such an administration could only be understood in one way; which was, in fact, leaving all others who might join them nothing to do but to surrender the pre-eminence into the hands of him who could count the most numerous supporters in that House. Now obviously lord Wellesley did not stand in that situation; he had not the numerical followers who could give this sort of strength to an administration. Undoubtedly then, they differed in their views on this point. It was not lord Wellesley's opinion, that, because his force was not the larger of the two, therefore he was to pursue all the measures of the larger party with which he might connect himself, and into whose power his power must merge, but rather that mutual consideration, and weighing or those measures, should be the consequence. True it was, that an administration might then be pronounced most strong, when it contained no conflicting principles, and no contradictory opinions; when it came forward with long concerted plans on public subjects, and when its members had been connected for a series of years past, in political agreement. But still when such a description of men came into power, it could not be said to be an union of parties on an extended basis, but a transfer of power from one party in the state to another. When the commission was first offered to lord Wellesley, he was aware, that to lay the foundation of an extended and efficient administration, though differences of opinion might exist, as to points of inferior importance, yet an understanding should be come to with regard to the two great points of our external and internal policy,—the conduct of the war, and the claims of the Catholics. Besides these, there were others which might become matters of mutual discussion. He now referred to the Orders in Council, which involved much matter of serious deliberation, and about which there might be some difficulty in coming to a practical conclusion. This then, was a point which lord Wellesley conceived might remain fairly open in all its bearings to mature consideration. But he did imagine that an union on the two great points of external and internal policy, to which he had alluded, might form a basis sufficiently strong and extended for the superstructure of an efficient ministry to be erected upon it. He did not deny that the American question was extremely important; but still it was so complicated in its details, and so many recent negociations had taken place upon it, that it at least required the most serious and dispassionate attention. Were he called upon to yield any of the great principles of maritime law on which this country had acted, he had no hesitation in refusing his assent to any such proposition. With regard to the conduct of the war in the peninsula, no man could mean to offer the proposition that it should be persisted in at all events, or that the blood and treasure of the country should be drained in a contest evidently hopeless. In the proposition which his noble friend made to lords Grey and Grenville, it was perfectly understood that they might retain their opinions on the origin of that war; all that was wished was, that they should be prepared to agree to its maintenance in the mean time, and that they should reserve to themselves the right of examining the means, the extent, and the mode of carrying it on. The difficulty of complete concurrence of opinion on these and other points, his noble friend and himself did not disguise from themselves, nor did they disguise, that if they required conciliation upon all points, it would be impossible to form any administration. They thought it better, therefore, to limit themselves to two great objects—the one a leading feature of internal policy—the other embracing almost our whole external system. Upon these it was necessary to ascertain an union of sentiment; and that union, if complete, would, they thought, be sufficiently strong to bear the superstructure of a combined administration, though differing upon other questions, not perhaps of interior importance, but not so immediately affecting the leading features of our present policy.

With these impressions, his noble friend made a communication to lords Grey and Grenville; of which the following was a Minute:

MINUTE of a COMMUNICATION made by Lord Wellesley to Lords Grey and Grenville, at Lord Grey's house, dated May 23, 1812.

"Lord Wellesley stated, that he had received the commands of his royal highness the Prince Regent, to lay before his Royal Highness the plan of such an administration, as he (lord Wellesley) might deem adapted to the present crisis of affairs.

"That he had apprised his Royal Highness of the necessity of ascertaining the views and dispositions of all parties with regard to certain general principles, previously to the formation of any such plan.

"That he considered himself merely as the instrument of executing his Royal Highness's commands on this occasion; and that he neither claimed, nor desired for himself any station in the administration which it was in his Royal Highness's contemplation to form.

"Under these circumstances he requested to know, whether any obstacle existed to the concurrence of lords Grey and Grenville, or their friends, in the following general principles, as the basis upon which an administration might be formed:—

"1st. That the state of the laws affecting the Roman Catholics, and the claims of that body of his Majesty's subjects, should be taken into immediate consideration, with a view to a conciliatory adjustment of those claims;

"2nd. That the war in the peninsula should be prosecuted on a scale of adequate vigour.

"Lord Wellesley stated, that as Mr. Canning and he agreed in these principles, he had requested Mr. Canning to communicate them to lord Liverpool.

"Lord Wellesley has reduced the substance of this communication to writing, and now submits it to lord Grey and lord Grenville. (Signed) WELLESLEY."

To this communication the noble lords made the following reply:

MEMORANDUM from Lords Grey and Grenville, dated May 24, 1812.

"In such a moment as the present, we feel it to be the duty of all public men, both by frank and conciliatory explanations of principle, and by the total abandonment of every personal objection, to facilitate as far as may be in their power, the means of giving effect to the late vote of the House of Commons, and of averting the imminent and unparalleled dangers of the country.

"Lord Wellesley has selected two, among the many important subjects which must engage the attention of any men, who could, in such circumstances, be called upon to consider of the acceptance of stations of public trust.

"On those two points our explanation shall be as distinct as it is in our power to make it.

"On the first, indeed, our opinion is too well known, and has been too recently expressed, to need repetition.

"We have derived a very high gratification from lord Wellesley's powerful exertions in support of the claims of the Roman Catholics; as well as from the manner in which that subject is adverted to in his minute; and we do not hesitate to assure him, that we will warmly support any proposal made by any ministers, for the immediate consideration of those claims with a view to their conciliatory adjustment; a measure, without which we have already declared, that we can entertain no hope in any case of rendering our own services useful.

"As to the second point, no person feels more strongly than we do the advantages which would result from a successful termination of the present contest in Spain. But we are of opinion, that the direction of military operations in an extensive war, and the more or less vigorous prosecution of those operations, are questions not of principle but of policy; to be regulated by circumstances, in their nature temporary and fluctuating, and in many cases known only to persons in official stations,—by the engagements of the country, the prospects of ultimate success, the extent of the exertions necessary for its attainment, and the means of supporting those efforts without too great a pressure on the finances and internal prosperity of the country.

"On such questions, therefore, no public men, whether in or out of office, can undertake for more than a deliberate and dispassionate consideration, according to the circumstances of the case as it may appear, and to such means of information as may then be within their reach. But we cannot in sincerity conceal from lord Wellesley, that, in the present state of the finances, we entertain the strongest doubts of the practicability of an increase in any branch of the public expenditure."

Lord Wellesley's declared object being to form a comprehensive administration, which should unite, if possible, all the great parties of the state, it was necessary that a proposition should also be made to the members of the suspended government.

At the same moment, therefore, at which his noble friend made the communication which he had read to lords Grey and Grenville, he (Mr. Canning) made a proposition to lord Liverpool; of which the following was a minute:

MINUTE of Mr. Canning's PROPOSITION to Lord Liverpool, dated Fife-house, May 23, 1812.

"The Prince Regent having laid his commands upon lord Wellesley to form a plan of an administration, to be submitted for his Royal Highness's approbation, Mr. Canning was requested by lord Wellesley (as the channel of communication thought likely to be most agreeable to lord Liverpool) to enquire of lord Liverpool, whether there would be a disposition on the part of lord Liverpool, and of his colleagues, or of any of them, to entertain any proposal which should be made to them for forming part of that administration.

"The principles upon which the administration was intended to be formed were stated to be, first, the taking into the early and serious consideration of the executive government the state of the laws affecting the Roman Catholics, with a sincere and earnest desire to bring that important question to a final and satisfactory settlement: secondly, the prosecution of the war in the peninsula with the best means of the country.

"It was stated, that there would be the strongest wish to comprehend in the arrangement, without any individual or party exclusion whatever, as many as possible of such persons as might be able to agree in giving their public services to the country on these two principles.

"With respect to the distribution of offices, it was stated, that nothing of any sort was decided or stipulated; but that every thing would be open to be arranged to the honour and satisfaction of all parties."

To this proposition the noble earl answered as follows:

LETTER from Lord Liverpool to Mr. Canning, dated Fife-house, May 23, 1812.

"My dear Canning; I have communicated to my colleagues the memorandum which I received from you this afternoon.

"They do not think it necessary to enter into any discussion of the principles stated in that memorandum; because they all feel themselves bound, particularly after what has recently passed, to decline the proposal of becoming members of an administration to be formed by lord Wellesley.—Believe me to be, with sincere personal regard, my dear Canning, very faithfully your's,

(Signed) LIVERPOOL."

With regard to the proposals made by his noble friend to lords Grey and Grenville, he was willing to admit that they were met in a fair, frank, and conciliatory manner. He would willingly admit also, the force of the objection made by the noble lords to the second proposition, that it was a matter of policy rather than of principle, and that its adoption was to be regulated by considerations that could arise only from knowledge of official details. At the same time, however, the right hon. gentleman would concede to him, that to form an administration, without knowing, generally, what were the opinions of its members, upon certain great leading questions, would be to risk dissention and discord in the very outset. It was no part of his noble friend's desire to dictate to the noble lords, that they should carry on the war in the peninsula, under all circumstances, that they should drain the country of its resources to prosecute a hopeless contest, and that they should disclaim all considerations of expediency; but he was justified in asking, if they would come to the question with the disposition to continue the war, if they found its continuance a matter justified by every circumstance they should learn? and if they replied, that their disposition was to continue the war, provided they should be convinced, from official details, that it would be a measure of sound policy, then their demand to know those details before they gave any pledge, would be considered only as the demand of men acting from the dictates of just discrimination and good sense.

The right hon. gentleman had stated, that there was some difference in the terms of lord Wellesley's communication to lords Grey and Grenville, and in those of his (Mr. Canning's) communication to lord Liverpool; but he had not distinctly described the extent of that difference, or the mode in which it was subsequently explained. Lord Grey required an explanation in the following letter:

LETTER of Lord Grey to Lord Wellesley, dated Portman-square, May 27, 1812.

"My lord,—I have the honour of returning the papers which your lordship was so good as to put into my hands this morning.

"I observe a material difference between the terms in which the two principles, proposed as the basis of a new administration, are stated in Mr. Canning's minute, and in that sent to lord Grenville and me by your lordship. I think it necessary to call your lordship's attention to this circumstance, because if these discussions should proceed further, it may become of the utmost importance. I am, with the highest regard, my lord, your lordship's very faithful humble servant,

(Signed) "GREY."

To this Letter lord Wellesley replied as follows:

LETTER of Lord Wellesley, to Lord Grey, dated Apsley-house, May 28, 1812.

"My lord, I should have returned an earlier acknowledgement of the honour of your lordship's letter of yesterday, had I not thought it necessary to see Mr. Canning before I troubled your lordship with any answer to your observations on our respective minutes.

"Having carefully examined those papers, and compared them with our view of the points to which they refer, we have drawn the enclosed paper for your lordship's information, and have authenticated it by our respective signatures.—I have the honour to be, &c.

(Signed) "WELLESLEY."

PAPER signed by Lord Wellesley and Mr. Canning.

"The variance in point of phrase in the two propositions as stated by lord Wellesley and Mr. Canning in their minutes of conference, arises from this circumstance, that lord Wellesley and Mr. Canning went to their respective conferences without having thought it necessary previously to reduce into a written form the communications which they were to make, being in full possession of each other's sentiments upon the subject of them.

"The two minutes were written by them as containing the substance of their respective communications; that of Mr. Canning in lord Liverpool's presence; that of lord Wellesley immediately after his return from lord Grey.

"There does not appear to lord Wellesley and Mr. Canning to be any substantial variance in the first proposition.

"The word 'early' in Mr. Canning's minute might be exchanged for the word 'immediate,' used by lord Wellesley, without in any degree altering the sense: as with a motion actually pending in the House of Commons, which, (but for the events that have recently taken place) would have come on this very day, the object of which was to compel the executive government to take the subject of the Catholic question into consideration, it cannot be necessary to say that Mr. Canning has no wish to defer that consideration. On the other hand consideration by the executive government is the object which it is lord Wellesley's intention to recommend: nor does he conceive any farther parliamentary proceeding to be necessary or practicable this session than such as might be sufficient to insure, either by compulsion upon a hostile administration, or by pledge from a friendly one, the consideration of the question during the recess with a view to its being brought before parliament by the recommendation of the crown, early in the ensuing session.

"A committee to enquire into the state of the laws has been already negatived in both Houses this session.

"A 'conciliatory adjustment' of the claims of the Irish Catholics is the object which lord Wellesley and Mr. Canning have equally at heart; and it enters equally into both their views that to be 'conciliatory' that adjustment must be so framed as to embrace the interests and opinions of the English Catholics,—also, to obtain the enlightened and deliberate consent of the Protestants of both countries. They would think any adjustment very imperfect, which instead of extinguishing discontent, only transferred it from the Catholic to the Protestant.

"But they concur in entertaining a confident belief, that the great purpose of securing the peace of the empire may be best answered, not by giving a triumph to any one party, but by reconciling all.

"In the substance of the second proposition, there is no variance as to any practical and prospective purpose, though undoubtedly there is, and it is natural there should be, some as to the past, arising from the difference of Mr. Canning's and lord Wellesley's respective situations.

"When Mr. Canning says, that the pe- ninsular war is to be carried on 'with the best means of the country,' he intends the greatest scale of exertion which the means of the country may be found capable of sustaining.

"If lord Wellesley's expression, 'a scale of adequate vigour,' may be construed to imply the proposition, that the late exertions of this country have not been proportioned to the great object of the war, or have not been duly distributed or apportioned; this proposition Mr. Canning certainly does not intend either to affirm, or to deny; simply because, not having been in the government during the last two years, he has not sufficient information to be able to pronounce an opinion, whether the exertions of those two years have or have not been below the proper scale, or have been well or ill administered; nor how far they may now admit of being extended or more judiciously applied.

"He concurs, however, entirely with lord Wellesley, in wishing to extend them to the utmost power of the country; and to apply them in the manner best calculated to answer their end.

(Signed) "WELLESLEY.

"GEORGE CANNING."

To this communication lord Grey made the following rejoinder.

LETTER from Lord Grey to Lord Wellesley, dated Portman-square, May 29, 1812.

"My lord,—I had last night the honour of receiving your lordship's letter, enclosing a paper explanatory of the difference which I had remarked between your lordship's minute and Mr. Canning's, together with a copy of the latter.

"I beg your lordship to be assured that in the observation to which I had thought it necessary to call your lordship's attention, I could have no object but that of preventing the possibility of any future misunderstanding. We had not entered into any explanation, which, under the circumstances of the moment, would perhaps have been premature, of the details of conduct necessary to give effect to the first of the propositions, offered by your lordship as the basis of a new administration. From the difference of the time used by Mr. Canning in stating that proposition, I was apprehensive that it might be his opinion, in concurrence with your lordship's, that no parliamentary proceedings with reference to the claims of the Catho- lics, should take place during the present session. To such an opinion I could not have assented; and I felt it to be due both to your lordship and to Mr. Canning, immediately to draw your attention to a point on which it was so desirable that there should be a clear understanding between us.

"I hope it is unnecessary for me to state, that I can look at the situations of the Catholics (both Irish and English) with no other view than that of the public interest; and that nothing can be further from my disposition, or my intention, in a matter of such pre-eminent importance, than to give to any one party a triumph at the expence of another. But I do not conceive, that the repeal of the disabilities of which the Catholics complain, can give any just cause for discontent to their Protestant fellow subjects; and I am strongly of opinion, that the efficacy of that measure must in a great degree depend on its being carried into effect with the least possible delay, and with the clearest demonstrations of a conciliatory and confiding spirit. Under this impression I should very reluctantly abandon the hope of passing a Bill for such repeal, even during the present session; but if this cannot be done, I hold it to be indispensable, that the most distinct and authentic pledge should be given of the intention, both of the executive government and of parliament, to take this matter up as one of the first measures of the next. To a proceeding of this nature, from the Paper signed by your lordship and Mr. Canning, I am led to hope that you would not be averse.

"As to the second proposition, the difference which I had observed was much less important. It is impossible to reduce a question of this nature to any fixed principle. Whatever we can say with our present means of information, must necessarily be general and inconclusive, the whole subject being left open to future consideration and decision. I can have no hesitation in subscribing to the proposition, that, if it shall be found expedient to continue the exertions we are now making in the peninsula, they should be conducted in the manner best calculated to answer their end.

"I have, I fear, troubled your lordship much more than is necessary under the circumstances of our present situation; and I will only add, that if we should be called upon to pursue these considerations in their practical details, it will be my most anxious wish, that no difference of opinion may be found to exist between us, respecting the conduct to be adopted by a government equally solicitous for the internal peace and harmony of the empire, and for the prosecution of military operations in such a mode as may appear most conducive to our ultimate security. Lord Grenville, to whom I have communicated your lordship's letter, and its enclosures, desires me to express his cordial concurrence in this wish.—I have the honour to be, with the highest regard, my lord, your lordship's very faithful humble servant,

(Signed) "GREY."

In consequence of the declaration on the part of lord Liverpool and his colleagues, that they must decline becoming members of any administration to be formed by lord Wellesley, he (Mr. Canning) had thought it his duty to write the following private letter to lord Liverpool:

LETTER from Mr. Canning to Lord Liverpool, dated Gloucester Lodge, May 24, 1812; ½ past 8, A. M.

"My Dear Liverpool,

"I have received your letter of last night, which I will immediately transmit to lord Wellesley.

"Before I do so, however, and of course, therefore, without lord Wellesley's consent or privity, I cannot forbear suggesting to you to consider, whether the sort of personal objection which your letter evidently and exclusively implies, will stand fairly before the country; at such a moment, as a justification for refusing to act in an administration, to the public principles of which you do not feel, or at least do not state, any insurmountable repugnance.

"I would suggest to you further to consider, whether, resting your refusal on an objection merely personal, you do quite justly either by yourselves or by the individual concerned, in leaving the precise nature of that objection wholly unexplained.

"In offering these suggestions, I perhaps exceed the limits of a correspondence such as ours is, upon this occasion: but they strike me so forcibly, that I think I owe it to you, not to withhold them. Whether to communicate them to your colleagues or not, I leave entirely to your discretion; but you at least will not resent, so far as you are yourself concerned, a freedom which may be justified by that regard with which I am, ever, &c.

(Signed) "GEORGE CANNING."

To this private letter Lord Liverpool sent the following reply:

LETTER from lord Liverpool to Mr. Canning, dated Fife-house, May 24, 1812.

"My Dear Canning,

"I have this moment received your answer to my letter of last night.

"As that letter was not written without all due consideration, I do not feel that it can be necessary for me to call my colleagues again together upon the subject of it.

"I can answer, however, for myself, (and I am confident equally for them,) that I am not actuated, in declining the proposal made to us, by any objection of a nature purely personal. But when I advert to the opinions and statements recently sent forth to the world respecting public men with whom I have been connected, and public measures in which I have been engaged, I do not feel that I should have acted consistently with my own honour and character, or with the respect which I must ever owe, and shall ever feel, to my departed friend, if under such circumstances, I could have consented to have entertained the proposal which you were authorised to submit to me.

"As these considerations afforded an insuperable obstacle to my becoming a party to the proposed arrangements, I thought it wholly unnecessary to enter into any explanation on the two principles on which the administration is stated as intended to be formed, or on other points of the greatest public importance; and I must protest against any inference whatever being drawn from my silence in this respect.

"I can assure you that I am most willing to render you every degree of justice for the motives which have dictated your answer to my letter. And I remain with sincere regard, &c. LIVERPOOL."

He had entered into these details, because be thought it due to both parties to do so; and because he wished to render exact justice to all. Lord Wellesley had had the opportunity of such complete and ample justification in another place, that it would be quite unnecessary for him to travel over the same grounds. He would content himself with observing, that the whole of the noble lord's negociation discovered the most marked characteristics of a magnanimous spirit and an innocent heart. The right hon. gentleman had justly stated, that there was here an interval, during which nothing appeared to be done. It was his duty to account for that interval; and he could assure the House, that it was not unemployed,—that the commission of his noble friend was not suspended, but that attempts had been making to induce the late colleagues of lord Wellesley to form part of the intended administration. It was true that these attempts had not been successful; but surely upon their own principles, the gentlemen opposite could not censure the effort. Upon the principle of numerical strength, on which they acted, they had no right to quarrel with what was not a very unusual thing,—a stipulation of numbers in, or a balancing of the cabinet. It ought, however, at the same time to be remembered, that however balanced, or however dissected, the cabinet might be, there was a majority of one offered to the noble lords. This concession of his noble friend, might, on the principle of a balanced cabinet, be considered even rash; but, under the present circumstances of the state,—in the present divisions of public men, he did not know how a cabinet could be got together between no two of whom there should be a difference of opinion. All hope of such a cabinet was now gone; and it was not too much to assume, that they who had put an end to that hope, thought that they ought to have, and to continue to possess, exclusively the power of the government. He did not say that that might not be very fit, but it was not certainly the principle on which the negociation was founded; and on the whole he could not help again declaring, that the offer made by his noble friend to the noble lords was generous, was liberal, was even rash: that offer was rejected, and it was not for him to say one word on the motives which dictated that rejection. He did not by any means impeach their conduct,—but they withheld their services; and it was in his opinion a just conclusion, that unless the whole power of the government was put into their hands, their pretensions could not be satisfied. Again he begged leave to observe, that he did not attach blame to the noble lords. He did not say that they rated their po- litical consequence too high, but he only wanted to shew the principle on which they acted. The right hon. gentleman complained, that the noble lords were not honoured by the Prince with a personal interview; his answer to that complaint was, that somebody was sent for. And here again what could those complaints mean, but that the right hon. gentleman thought, that the whole government should be yielded to the disposal of his noble friends? He did not blame the noble lords, nor the right hon. gentleman, for thinking they had a right to such disposal: he was only explaining the principle on which lord Wellesley's offer was rejected. That offer being, however, thus rejected, lord Wellesley surrendered his authority, and it was then consigned to lord Moira. As to lord Moira's negociation with the noble lords, he of his own knowledge could say nothing, nor indeed should he advert to it at all, except that he wished to do justice to the noble lord, whose efforts had been rendered unsuccessful by the condition made so peremptorily and entirely by the noble lords. He had before stated, that he could say nothing of his own knowledge of the steps taken by lord Moira subsequent to the failure of lord Wellesley's negociation. The reason that he was thus ignorant was, that as he had been one of those mentioned as a cabinet minister in the first proposition, he had a motive of delicacy in wishing not to be mentioned by lord Moira in his transactions with lords Grey and Grenville, until he saw what progress would be made in the arrangement between them. He wished to watch their proceedings; reserving to himself, after what had passed, the right of acceding or not to any proposal which might be made to him. He at the same time told lord Moira, that if this new negociation should happen to be broken off, then his services would be at his lordship's command. This was, perhaps, all that he was called upon to say concerning the late negociations, as far as they regarded himself; but he thought it was due to lord Moira, to give all that evidence of the sincerity with which he acted, by alluding to the letters which passed between him and the noble lords. On the 4th or 5th of June, he sent his compliments to the noble lords, "begging them to advert to his communication of the 3d of June, and stating how happy he should be to obtain permission from the Prince Regent to address them formally, with respect to the very objects they all had in view." This letter was written by lord Moira under a notion that his former communication was some way or other considered disrespectful, and that the noble lords did not conceive themselves approached in a manner consistent with their dignity. The answer of the noble lords to this communication declared, "how desirable any personal communication of the noble lord could be always to them, but that they did not conceive how any unauthorised discussion could be useful." It stated also, "that they would ever receive, with feelings of the highest respect, every communication from his Royal Highness, and that they yielded in zeal for his interests to none others whosoever." To this lord Moira replied, "that he would leave no efforts untried in the pursuit of the object he had in view, and that he was authorised to communicate with them from the Prince, but that he wished lord Erskine to be present with him, at his interview with the noble lords." This brought down the transactions to the minute read by the right hon. gentleman, which was commented upon in a manner that to him appeared the most unfair. It was said by the right hon. gentleman, that lord Moira insisted on a denial of power which the noble lords considered inseparable constitutionally from the government. In the right hon. gentleman's view, it would appear that lord Moira thought as if some "hedge or sanctity" had been thrown over the houshold which protected no other political department: but lord Moira thought no such thing. With that candour and frankness which ever distinguished lord Moira, and which to say the truth were called for by the equal candour and frankness of the noble lords, that noble lord said, it was not to the existence of the power of displacing the houshold, but to the application of that power, now, under all the circumstances of the case, that he objected: and he himself would contend, that in thus acting, lord Moira was swayed as well by public principle as by private feeling; and that if he had acted otherwise, he would have betrayed both. Lord Moira did not hold that in ordinary cases this power should not be exercised; but what he protested against was, the making the exercise of it, in the present instance, the very first act of the new administration. The noble lord was of opinion, that the present exercise of that power would be fastening on a quarter which it was most desirable should be free from imputation, those calumnies which were so much in the mouths of men. He did not object to the right of the new Administration to displace the great officers of the household, but it was the policy of doing so which he condemned. Such policy, he knew would tend to fix a stain indelibly, where no spot ought to be allowed to remain. Now in this conduct of the noble lord, he would ask the right hon. gentleman, could he be accused of any partiality or predilection for the persons whose interests seemed to be declining? Could it be thought, that he wished to stand in the way of realizing that efficient government of the formation of which he himself was to have had the credit and the honour? The fact was, that lord Moira acted solely on public grounds. He saw that a construction would be given to the displacing of the officers of the houshold far beyond the opinion of the noble lords, and that great public mischief would be the direct consequence. He, in one word, resisted the application of a power which he acknowledged to exist. There was one point connected with this part of lord Moira's conduct which he was authorised to state particularly. Fearing that he was not entirely understood by the Prince when he received his unrestricted commands to form an Administration, when he returned to the royal presence, he put this question directly: "Is your Royal Highness prepared, if I should so advise it, to part with all the officers of your houshold?" The answer was, "I am": Then said lord Moira, "your Royal Highness shall not part with one of them." In this conduct of lord Moira, he (Mr. C.) saw nothing, but what was most honourable, and it was quite unfair to say with the right hon. gentleman, that this was an attempt to put persons holding high offices beyond the controul of government. But supposing, as a preliminary step, that lord Moira had agreed to the exercise of the power alluded to, and that afterwards some other point of difference should arise which would be fatal to lord Moira's patriotic efforts, what would the country say of the failure? The country, panting with the expectation of an Administration, would have said, "You have come out of a five hour's negociation, and what have you done? You have disjointed a houshold, but you have not formed a government." Whatever others might think of lord Moira's conduct, he thought him right; and he, therefore, upon the failure of the negociation with the noble lords, placed his humble services at his disposal. What happened afterwards it was unnecessary for him to state; but on Monday morning the noble lord surrendered his commission. As to any further mention or defence of the noble lord, he had now only to correct a misapprehension which had gone abroad, that on surrendering that commission he advised the revival of the present Administration. It was not for him to say what passed between the noble lord and his Prince; but of this he was assured, that five minutes after the interview between them, the noble lord related to him every thing that had passed, and in the whole of what he said, there was not one tittle as to any such advice. He stated this with no particular view, but merely for truth's sake; wishing to correct an erroneous impression, and not caring how that correction might be felt. As he was on the subject of correcting erroneous impressions, he thought it right to advert to a misapprehension of the right hon. gentleman, in an allusion to the speech of a noble lord (Yarmouth.) In speaking of the houshold, that noble lord did not say that there would be, if lords Grey and Grenville were in power, more removals than are usual on ordinary changes of Administration, but that there would be more voluntary resignations. He had now gone through the course of those transactions which afforded an opportunity of confiding the affairs of the country to that powerful phalanx, so splendid in great names, and so brilliant in ability. On public grounds alone he believed they most sincerely acted, and from him they should ever have the credit of having withheld their services from public views alone. He lamented that such an opportunity was not likely soon to occur again. (Here Mr. Whitbread smiled.) The hon. gentleman might smile, because he, perhaps, thought that the talents and character of his friends would yet force their way into power; but notwithstanding, he should continue to lament, that such an opportunity had been lost for realizing what had been long considered by many a mere creature of imagination, namely, an honest coalition of public men sacrificing some of their opposite doctrines to the general good of their country. He could not help thinking that such an opportunity would not speedily recur, whatever the hon. gentleman opposite might hope for. To those who looked on such a coalition as that to which he alluded as a mere chimerical experiment in politics, the present failure would be a matter of rejoicing; but to him, who had always held a contrary opinion, it was matter of sincere regret. He should now allude to one point more, and then sit down. The right hon. gentleman, and those on his side of the House, seemed to consider, that the great families and connections of this country had a kind of right to interfere in the nomination of ministers. He himself, who was so very humble an individual, who could not boast of any of those high connections, and who, perhaps, though unknown to himself, was influenced by those circumstances of his humble rank, did not certainly believe in the existence of any such right or pretension in the aristocracy. He thought that in the very best spirit of the constitution, the crown had exclusively the appointment of ministers, subject, of course, to the controul or advice of a free parliament. He did not, however, blame many of the gentlemen opposite for holding such an opinion. It was one that did not want the sanction of exalted authority; for even that great man, whose genius, infinitely more than that of all his cotemporaries, would mark our time with posterity, Mr. Burke himself, held that opinion. He concluded his speech by saying, that he did not feel himself called upon to vote for any of the amendments; and advised his hon. friend, in the peculiar circumstances of the present government, to withdraw his motion.

observed, that the right hon. gentleman who spoke last appeared to him from his speech to have entered on the late negociations with warm and, as he believed, unfounded prejudices against the high connections which existed among his friends. He contended, that with respect to the proposition made by the marquis Wellesley, it was merely asking the noble lords Grey and Grenville, and their friends, to join an administration already said to be formed, and that even thus, lord Wellesley had not sufficient authority to explain subsequently a misunderstanding alleged to have arisen. With respect to lord Moira's negociation, his noble friend had been charged with having sacrificed the hopes of the country to their enmity to the existing houshold. In the first place, the question put by lord Grey was merely as to those places in the houshold usually subject to the controul of the administration; such officers as were usually removable upon a change of ministers, and not a change of the whole houshold, or any thing like it. To this lord Moira objected in limine: and here they had to learn something entirely new. Instead of doing what he (Mr. T.) would have done in similar circumstances; instead of reading the minute of the conversation to his Royal Highness without a comment, and then waiting his Royal Highness's further commands; instead of this, he takes a course highly theatrical, as far as effect may be considered, independent of motive, to which he (Mr. T.) did not intend the slightest objection; but, like the right hon. gentleman, he came forward with a sudden display. "Is," said the noble lord to the Prince Regent, "Is your Royal Highness prepared, on my advice, supposing public exigency to require it, to part with the whole of your houshold?" Then what was the answer of his Royal Highness?—precisely what might be expected from his good sense and public spirit—"I am ready," replied the Prince, "to part with them all."—"Then," rejoined the noble lord. "not one of them shall be removed." Now really this appeared to him as rather going to a greater length than circumstances called for. For if the noble lord had stopped at this gracious reply on the part of the Prince Regent, and reported it to the noble lords in question, there could be no doubt that every difficulty would have been at once removed. But there was upon this very point a most unfortunate misunderstanding. It had been rumoured, that certain noble lords, now in the household, would have resigned the moment his noble friends had agreed to come into office. There had been certainly various rumours, particularly respecting the different accounts given by two brothers upon this matter; a noble lord (lord Yarmouth) had gone so far as to state, that his noble friends were aware of the intention on the part of the noble lords alluded to, to resign their places in the houshold, the moment those noble friends had consented to form an administration: to prove how improbable it was, that there was any such consciousness in that quarter, at least, he begged leave to state a circumstance that had occurred on that day. Having referred to a right hon. friend, (Mr. Sheridan) as to the truth of the statement respecting the intended resignations, that right honourable gentleman answered, "I will bet five hundred guineas no such thing was ever in contemplation."—He denied therefore, that his noble friends broke off the negociation; it was not their act, but that of lord Moira. And now here they were after all these negociations, brought back to the old question they had decided upon three weeks ago, with the self same gentlemen before them, partly recovered from their suspended animation, and begging that they might be kept a little longer from sinking. Why, the only obstacle to the formation of an efficient government had been already removed. (No, no! from the ministerial benches.) He could certainly very well understand why gentlemen on the other side should take the alarm at any apprehension of such obstacles being removed—but as this matter of the houshold was now so much better understood, he did not see why the negociations might not be resumed tomorrow, and all the gentlemen opposite put under water again.—He could account for the amiable milkiness of disposition that tempted gentlemen in power to call upon all those out of power to support them by an union, but the sober truth was, that in the present mode of extending an administration they could not expect to get new till they got rid of the old, so that question would not be merely the difficult one of who was to come in, but the still more difficult one of who was to go out. The members of the old administration were, naturally, very averse to go out. They would be happy however it seemed to get an accession of strength. "Very glad to see you, but can't ask you to sit down; here are no chairs." But if they could make room they might very well say, "Ours is the most convenient cabinet in the world for you to join: we care nothing about your principles; the basis of the present cabinet, is that we have no cabinet measures,—every man may do according to his own discretion,—no very limited latitude;—it is in short, Liberty hall; every man may do as he pleases." Still however there might be some awkward jostling between opposite discretions; between those, for instance, who thought the Catholic Question a vital one, and those who thought that it involved the safety of the principles of the Revolution, and the sanctity of the coronation oath; and he believed that there were two members of the present cabinet, who thought that the constitution and the coronation oath would be risked by a concession of the Catholic Claims. There might, to be sure, be questions where this liberty of discretion might give rise to some slight symptoms of practical difficulty, as should one member of the cabinet propose an immediate application of all the wealth and military means of the country, to support the campaign in the peninsula upon a grand and striking scale, and require a vote of 20,000 men and five millions of money for that purpose; and this campaign were not a cabinet measure, there might be another proposition from another member of the government, refusing in the exercise of his discretion any further aid to the peninsula, than that of 500l. and a corporal's guard. Was it possible to form an efficient administration on such principles? He exhorted the House to act upon that night in the way best calculated to enable them to go back to their constituents with an honest confidence, by consistently supporting the spirit of their former address.

, in explanation, observed, that the right hon. gentleman had resorted to personal allusions, which he was called on by a sense of propriety to notice.

, in explanation, repeated the conversation which had taken place between him and his right hon. friend, and disclaimed any personal allusion.

stated the determination of he houshold officers to have resigned, in the event of lords Grey and Grenville coming into the administration.

observed, that the whole matter clearly came out now, and it was shewn, that all that the noble lords wanted was to get power and patronage. All they asked was, "shall we have so and so? shall we be allowed this place, and shall we have that?"—Was this their love for their country?—was this their pretension to patriotism? No! it was a love of places and pensions, and power, and emolument.—It was a steady enquiry what places they could get to enrich those who could tell them they had done so and so. They were determined to take every thing, and not to leave their Prince even the friend of his heart. But lord Moira had acted like a man of honour, and the whole country felt and acknowledged that he had proved a true friend to his Prince. As for all these motions for the formation of administrations on broad bases, by such means, they could never be realized.—These noble lords had had the fairest pro- positions made to them, but they would not throw aside their prejudices, either for the good of their country or for the service of their sovereign. Lord Chesterfield had laid it down over and over again, that where a man begun to truckle about places he was no patriot. In this case the country would support the men placed at her head in opposition to an oligarchy, the very worst of all governments—a government of ten cardinal Wolseys, instead of one. He desired them, if they chose, to go back to their constituents, and was sure they would not have twenty votes in the country. Neither their principles, nor these sort of motions, were necessary, and they ought to be resisted. If they thought themselves better than the ministers appointed, let them attack their measures, and put themselves in their places if they could—but he was convinced the country and the House would support the present government against all such attacks.

, thought the Prince Regent had done all that was possible to fulfil the Address of the House, and if he had been frustrated, it was owing to the persons with whom he was obliged to treat. The call made on his Royal Highness to dismiss his houshold in the manner it had been made, was, in his opinion, to insist upon his stultifying himself, and giving a colour to all the base charges that had been circulated to the prejudice of his servants.

, at that late period of the night, would not trespass long upon the House. If the question rested on the comparative merit of the different addresses that had been proposed, that subject had been so satisfactorily argued, that he would not have risen on the occasion; but there were one or two points connected with the transaction so accurately detailed by the right hon. gentleman, on which he wished to make some remarks. In commenting on transactions of such a delicate nature, he would be cautious not to aggravate the differences of public men, or to widen breaches, injurious to the welfare of the state. With respect to the original motion, the expressions which it contained were unexceptionable. He concurred in the sentiment of every member of that proposition. In the first place, the thanks to the Regent for his gracious attention to the express wishes of the House; in the second, the regret that his Royal Highness had not found it possible to form a more comprehensive administration. To all this he would have no hesitation in being a party, and to the further expression of hope, that his Royal Highness would avail himself of any opportunity that might occur for strengthening his present administration. But when it came to be asked, with what motive this Address was moved, he put it to the House if the obvious import of it was not calculated to throw a shade over the administration, which (subject to the view of parliament) was charged with the fate and the interests of the country. The Address was uncalled for by any message from the crown. It could lead to no practicable result. Its only effect would be to bring the administration under the insinuation, founded on its external structure and not on its conduct, that it was not likely to possess the confidence of the country. He trusted, therefore, that the hon. gentleman would withdraw his motion—for he could not conceive it possible that the House, by adopting it, would sanction it for no other purpose but to disqualify the government from executing the arduous task in which they had engaged. With respect to that administration, whatever might have been their public services, they certainly had not shewn any disposition to stand between the crown and the people.—All parties, it was confessed, had acted, during the late transactions, with the greatest liberality. Three or four distinct negociations had failed, and the crown was obliged to call on the present administration to charge itself with the affairs of the country. It was his consolation that while on the one hand he and his colleagues had never stood between the crown and the people; so on the other hand they had never shewn a disposition to shrink from the discharge of public duties, deterred as they otherwise might be by the accumulated difficulties which the late transactions had occasioned. Ministers were ready to do all that was required of them, trusting that parliament would give them fair and full confidence.—They wished their conduct to be judged by their acts, in order that they might receive the support of parliament if they were deserving of it, and if they were not, that they might bow to the decision of the House. He hoped that the late transactions would induce the House not again to push the principle which they had so strongly asserted. Those must be blind who could not see the calamitous consequences which the occurrences of the last three weeks were calculated to produce on our foreign and domestic relations. For although the sentiments manifested in the various negociations had been honourable to all parties, he could not held thinking that the mode which seemed to be in practice in modern times of forming an administration, was most injurious, and might be fatal to the interests of the country. Never, in ancient times, had a negociation between public men been exhibited to the eye of parliament and the country at large, and exposed to all the invidious comments which the malignity and the ignorance of mankind passed upon them. For his part he could never augur well of any negociation in which two men could not approach each other in a private room, although on public principles, without coming armed with pen and ink, and prepared to allow every thing they might utter to go forth immediately for the judgment of the public. After the termination of such a negociation, it had been common for something of the proceedings to be made public, but never till of late had it been the practice of those who were forming an administration, to submit their propositions and intentions to the public while yet they were but in progress. The consequences of such conduct, as developed in the present instance, would, he trusted, have the effect of preventing the recurrence of such scenes for the time to come. He had now to speak to that part of the late transactions with which he was connected. He had waited on his Royal Highness on the night of the 21st, to report to him the proceedings in parliament, previous to his Majesty's ministers giving their advice on the subject of that vote: and from that night, till he and his colleagues were recalled to their offices, excepting in the circle at the levee, he had never seen the Prince. He had only been connected with the negociations when the marquis Wellesley invited the members of the late cabinet to form an administration. It was a painful task for him to speak on this subject, but he disclaimed every thing like personal animosity to the noble marquis. He trusted it was not necessary to go through the whole of the detail, as the circumstances must be fresh in the memory of the House. The paper which had been published, he understood to have been published without the consent of the noble marquis; but after such a paper had appeared, describing the late minister and those who had acted with him, as the paper to which he alluded did, he would put it to the House if gentlemen situated as were his colleagues, could without degradation meet such a proposition in any other way than that in which it had been met. For the noble marquis he entertained the sincerest respect, with the highest admiration for his accomplishments and his talents; all he felt in this respect was heightened by the consideration, that he was the brother of the greatest soldier this country had produced. It was therefore a peculiarly painful task for him to be called upon to decide on such a question, as the propositions of the noble marquis brought before him; but the feelings of his colleagues were naturally such, that but one answer could be given. This he (lord Castlereagh) felt, and though he was not included in this description, yet the description given of his colleagues being unjust and inaccurate, according to his ideas, as, instead of those he acted with being persons who were incapable of rendering their country any service, he conceived them to be gentlemen eminently calculated to extricate it from its difficulties with honour; feeling this, he must have abandoned every sense of duty if he had not been anxious to repel the charge. It was under these circumstances, that the answer given had been returned to the marquis Wellesley; but that the proposition which he had made had been rejected with any thing of personal animosity, was an idea which he trusted the House and the country would dismiss altogether. Such an idea was now, he trusted, dismissed from the breast of the noble marquis himself, for as he (the marquis) had declared that he would never again, under any circumstances, serve under his departed friend Mr. Perceval, as well might he (lord C.) accuse the noble marquis of having cherished a feeling of animosity against that illustrious character, as he (the marquis) could accuse him (lord C.) and his colleagues of such a feeling from their recent conduct. No feeling was more absent from their mind, nor more abhorrent to their nature, than a feeling like that which he had described on such an occasion. With respect to the late negociations he would say, that if there were in the first instance difficulties in forming an administration, those difficulties must be always increased, if the negociations under the eye of parliament, or of the public, were exposed in their progress to the observations of the critic. Parliament had no reason to be afraid of such negociations being privately carried on, as it would always be wiser for them to act on their public conduct, than to interfere, as they had done, in the present instance. He declared, in the English history, a proceeding so sudden, with so short a notice, was not to be found, as that which they had lately seen, when the House decided, not against a government who by their own immediate and direct conduct had proved themselves unworthy of confidence—but against an administration, of which the formation was but in progress. He hoped their conduct, in this instance, would form a precedent which future parliaments would never follow. A great deal had been said of the unconstitutional conduct of the administration, in stating that each member of the cabinet would be left to act in his individual character on the Catholic question; but really he did not see that there were any grounds for all the horror expressed by his right hon. friend and the gentlemen opposite. The gentlemen opposite who were so much struck with this arrangement, on looking closer into the business would find that it was only a plagiarism on their own conduct. In lord Grenville's administration, though the Catholic question was a cabinet measure, it was allowed to two of the cabinet (lords Sidmouth and Ellenborough) to defend their own opinions, which were in opposition to the concession; and he hoped the present government might be sheltered under the wing of such a precedent from the charge of venturing upon new principles. For himself he felt perfectly at liberty to take any course on the Catholic question which his judgment might dictate, and he had no hesitation in saying, he should be willing to go into a discussion on that subject with any man in or out of that House, that seemed to promise to lead to any practical and beneficial result. Adverting to the point on which the last negociation, that of the earl of Moira, had broken off, he would say, though he would be the last man to impute any thing of disrespect to the crown on the part of either of the noble lords, that that for which they had contended, though he would never say that it ought to be placed on any footing distant from other political arrangements, had never been contended for as in the present instance, prior to the discussion of the other arrangements. It was clear, lord Moira had understood this to be a subject of after consideration, as he had declared, "that it was impossible for him to concur in making the exercise of power over the houshold officers, a positive and indispensable condition in the formation of a government." The subject had unfortunately been taken up in a tone of harshness which the country would never countenance in those who approached the throne.

"And now, all I have to say for ministers," concluded the noble lord, "is—they claim the constitutional support of parliament, till their actions seem to speak them unworthy of it, and though the present government may not possess within itself all those attributes which we have heard given to broad and extended administrations, they have at least one recommendation to public confidence (and it is not a small one), that they have no disunion among themselves. We have no private ends to answer; we are all anxious to serve our country, to do our best, and to submit our conduct to the judgment of parliament."

in reply said, he had not expected any opposition from the noble lord (Castlereagh) to his motion, because that noble lord owed his re-existence as a minister to him. The late government would have been strangled in its birth had not his motion taken place; but he would acknowledge that it stood better than at its first formation in the eyes of the country. He did not think that the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby) had cleared up the conduct of the noble lords. With respect to his motion, he did not wish to go to a division on it, because he thought he should lose both sides of the House. He should not, however, withdraw it, but suffer it to be negatived without a division, in order that it might stand on the Journals. Having said thus much with respect to his own motion, he should support the amendment moved by a noble lord, because he could not consent to tell the country by his vote that he thought the present a strong and efficient government.

intimated his wish to withdraw his amendment.

vindicated the share which his right hon. friend (Mr. Canning) had had in the late negociations.

expressed his intention not to suffer the amendment of the noble lord to be withdrawn.

Lord Folkestone's Amendment was then negatived without a division; after which, that of lord Milton was put, upon which the House divided—Ayes 164; Noes 289; Majority 125.

Mr. Wortley's motion being then put and negatived, the House adjourned.

Hansard

Volume 23: debated on Thursday 11 June 1812

House of Commons

Orders in Council

Eccesiastical Court

Petition of Samuel Scuffum, a Prisoner in Lancaster Castle

Mr. Stuart Wortley's Motion Respecting the Failure of the Negociations for Forming a New Administration