rose and said—I never addressed the House with such heartfelt satisfaction as on the present occasion; because after what passed on a preceding night, it is to myself peculiarly pleasing to learn, that this day an Order has been issued by his Royal Highness in council, of a nature which, to me, and to the hon. friends, with whom have con- sulted, is perfectly, in every way, satisfactory^*. In consequence of this gratifying proceeding, I rise to move that the order of the day for calling over the House, which is fixed for Thursday next, be discharged, since the necessity for enforcing it no longer exists. Under these welcome circumstances. I cannot sit down and close my lips as it were for ever upon the important subject of the Orders in Council, without expressing my sense of the frank and manly conduct of government in the mode they have adopted of recalling them [Hear! hear! from all sides.] To say more than this would be superfluous, and might be imputed to motives to which I shall not now refer; and to say less, would be refusing to do what in my mind is but an act of strict justice. As one of the country, and on behalf of the country, I beg to thank ministers for the manly and becoming Declaration they have made. It is fit that these expressions of satisfaction should originate on this side of the House, because, when an individual or a government, by circumstances, has been entangled in a certain set of measures, and the question is pressed upon them whether they shall be abandoned, I am persuaded that the fear, natural to human weakness, lest their opponents should indulge in a species of ill-judged triumph, has, more frequently than was fit, been the reason why those measures have been persisted in, long after the welfare of the state has required that they should be relinquished. For this reason I have thought that what I have said should come from me. I know that the effect of the revocation of the Orders in Council will be the revival and reanimation of our expiring trade and manufactures, and I hope that it will be met with a proper spirit in the UnitedStates. The language employed by the British ministers is not foreign to that of conciliation, and I trust, therefore, that an equally conciliatory and friendly disposition will be shewn, as indeed it naturally must, by the American executive. If such an amicable feeling be not excited, though I cannot anticipate such an event, I shall be one of the last men in the country to say that in such a case, the government of the British empire ought not to be firmly supported—[Hear! from all sides.] One of the most beneficial effects of the mode in which this revocation has been made is, that it will have an advantageous operation on our negociations with the United States, and it is far better than if the Orders in Council had been formally annulled by a vote of parliament. It is a most forward step to offer the hand of friendship, and if accepted, I am convinced that neither of these independent nations will make any sacrifice of honour by mutual conciliation.

^* From the Supplement to the London Gazette.

At the Court at Carlton-house, the 23d of June, 1812; present his royal highness the Prince Regent in Council.

Whereas his royal highness the Prince Regent was pleased to declare, in the name, and on the behalf of his Majesty, on the 21st day of April, 1812, "That if at any time hereafter the Berlin and Milan Decrees shall, by some authentic act of the French government, publicly promulgated, be absolutely and unconditionally repealed, then and from thenceforth the Order in Council of the 7th of January, 1807, and the Order in Council of the 26th of April 1809, shall, without any farther order, be, and the same are hereby declared from thenceforth to be, wholly and absolutely revoked."

And whereas the Chargé des Affaires of the United States of America, resident at this court, did, on the 20th day of May last, transmit to lord viscount Castlereagh, one of his Majesty's principal secretaries of state, a copy of a certain instrument, then for the first time communicated to this court, purporting to be a Decree passed by the government of France, on the 28th day of April, 1811, by which the Decrees of Berlin and Milan are declared to be definitively no longer in force, in regard to American vessels.

And whereas his royal highness the Prince Regent, although he cannot consider the tenour of the said instrument as satisfying the conditions set forth in the said Order of the 21st of April last, upon which the said Orders were to cease and determine, is nevertheless disposed on his part to take such measures as may tend to re-establish the intercourse between neutral and belligerent nations, upon its accustomed principles; his royal highness the Prince Regent, in the name and on the behalf of his Majesty, is therefore pleased, by and with the advice of his Majesty's privy council, to order and declare, and it is hereby ordered and declared, That the Order in Council bearing date the 7th day of January, 1807, and the Order in Council bearing date the 26th day of April, 1809, be revoked, so far as may regard, American vessels, and their cargoes,

being American property, from the 1st day of August next.

But whereas by certain acts of the government of the United States of America, all British armed vessels are excluded from the harbours and waters of the said United States, and the armed vessels of France being permitted to enter therein; and the commercial intercourse between Great Britain and the said United States is interdicted, the commercial intercourse between France and the said United States having been restored; his royal highness the Prince Regent is pleased hereby further to declare, in the name and on the behalf of his Majesty, that if the government of the said United States shall not, as soon as may be, after this Order shall have been duly notified by his Majesty's minister in America to the said government, revoke, or cause to be revoked, the said acts, this present Order shall in that case, after due notice signified by his Majesty's minister in America to the said government, be thenceforth null and of no effect.

It is further ordered and declared, that all American vessels, and their cargoes, being American property, that shall have been captured subsequently to the 20th day of May last, for a breach of the aforesaid Orders in Council alone, and which shall not have been actually condemned before the date of this Order; and that all ships and cargoes as aforesaid, that shall henceforth be captured under the said Orders, prior to the 1st day of August next, shall not be proceeded against to condemnation till further orders, but shall,

in the event of this Order not becoming null and of no effect, in the case aforesaid, be forthwith liberated and restored, subject to such reasonable expences on the part of the captors, as shall have been justly incurred.

Provided, that nothing in this Order contained, respecting the revocation of the Orders herein-mentioned, shall be taken to revive wholly or in part the Orders in Council of the 11th of November, 1807, or any other Order not herein-mentioned, or to deprive parties of any legal remedy to which they may be entitled under the Order in Council of the 21st of April, 1812.

His royal highness the Prince Regent is hereby pleased further to declare, in the name and on the behalf of his Majesty, that nothing in this present Order contained, shall be understood to preclude his royal highness the Prince Regent, if circumstances shall so require, from restoring, after reasonable notice, the Orders of the 7th of January, 1807, and 26th of April, 1809, or any part thereof, to their full effect, or from taking such other measures of retaliation against the enemy, as may appear to his Royal Highness to be just and necessary.

And the right honourable the lords commissioners of his Majesty's treasury, his Majesty's principal secretaries of state, the lords commissioners of the admiralty, and the judge of the high court of admiralty, and the judges of the courts of vice-admiralty, are to take the necessary measures herein, as to them may respectively appertain. JAMES BULLER.

.—It must always afford his Majesty's government great satisfaction to merit the approbation so liberally bestowed, but more particularly at the present moment. I was persuaded when the question, so long the subject of angry discussion, was stripped of the prejudices by which it was surrounded, that the step now taken would be viewed in its proper light. I hope, however, that it will not by any be supposed, that ministers have unadvisedly departed from their original intention, by the Declaration to which such encomiums have been applied. It is true, that there is a variation, and the difference is this: it was the wish of government, as expressed on a former occasion, that a suspension, and not a revocation, of the Orders in Council should be adopted, and the hon. member will not fail to recollect that in a resolution which he himself once proposed to the House, a suspension only was recommended. On consideration, however, it was found, that the word Suspension was not to be found in the Non-intercourse Act, and the President of the United States was only empowered to repeal it, on condition that the Orders in Council were revoked. It therefore appeared to ministers proper, in order that no risk might be incurred, that a revocation and not a suspension of the Orders in Council should be determined upon, Great Britain still preserving all the powers and rights she would have possessed provided the other course of proceeding had been deemed more expedient. In every other respect the Declaration was conformable to the original intention of government. The House will also find, that ministers, in a spirit of conciliation which was not less their desire than their duty, have made it not merely a revocation, but a retrospective revocation, to be in force from the moment that the French Edict declaring the Berlin and Milan Decrees repealed have been communicated to them. I have now only to return my thanks to the hon. member for the handsome manner in which he has introduced the subject, and I trust he will not consider that ministers are indisposed to receive his approbation because they think it necessary to state in what degree they deserve it.

, before the matter was set at rest, wished to offer his congratulations to the ministers and to the country, both on the termination of the Orders in Council, as well as on the manner in which they had been terminated; the government, finding that it was necessary to abandon the system, had resigned it in a fair and liberal way. The honour of the country would in no respect be prejudiced, and her commerce and manufactures would be most materially benefited. He rose principally to express his own and the nation's obligations to the hon. member who mainly by his individual exertions, had brought the subject to so happy a conclusion—a conclusion which he believed must, and he knew ought to satisfy the American republic. (Hear! hear!) However eager the witnesses produced at the bar, and however anxious the manufacturers in general might be for the repeal of the Orders in Council, they would cheerfully make any sacrifices, however considerable, if America should make demands inconsistent with the interests or honour of the nation.

concurred in the general opinion of the wisdom which the Prince Regent's government had displayed on the present occasion. But there was one point to which he wished again to call their attention, because it was one, which, perhaps, more than any other was likely to prevent or interrupt harmony with America—he meant the impressment of American seamen. The other day he had mentioned the impressment of one Williams, who, he understood, was really an American seaman, and he should be glad to know whether his case had been enquired into.

said, that his hon. friend (Mr. Croker) being absent, he could not give any immediate answer to the question.

wished to observe, that in the present stage of the negociations with America, the most active steps had been taken, to put an end to this source of misunderstanding. Our ambassador had asked a list of all persons in our navy, who were supposed to be American seamen, and when that list was procured, their cases would be forthwith enquired into.

entertained very little doubt, that the Order now issued would be perfectly satisfactory to America; but should she think proper to rise in her demands to what was unreasonable and unjust, no man would be more forward than himself to support the rights and interests of this country.

had no question that this measure, now so happily adopted, would prevent the breaking out of hostilities with America. He would now only observe, that it was impossible to contemplate the happiness and delight which its prospect had diffused among the manufacturing districts of the country, without congratulating the House and the country on the occasion; and they would soon have the satisfaction of going to their several homes, and of every where finding the people employed, industrious, and satisfied. It was unnecessary for him to pass any eulogy on the manner in which his hon. friend had conducted himself through the whole of the inquiry; that conduct had been witnessed by the House itself. He hoped that concord with America would be speedily restored; and that together with it, in the course of a very few months, an attempt would be made by ministers to restore peace with France, which could not fail to be attended with the greatest blessings to the country, and which he believed had hardly yet been gone about in the spirit of conciliation, in any instance.

The order of the day for the call of the House on Thursday was then discharged.

rose pursuant to his notice, to submit a motion to the House respecting tythes in Ireland. He said he felt that some explanation was due from him for bringing forward a subject involving interests of so much importance—and some apology for the trouble he should be obliged to give the House, in hearing him re-state arguments which he had before advanced. His explanation was, that the consideration of this question had become necessary, in consequence of the petitions and public declarations of nine of the largest counties in Ireland, all of them concurring in opinion, that some alteration in the system was absolutely indispensable. There was no doubt, the same opinion prevailed throughout all Ireland. Even the clergy were themselves well-wishers to some plan of relief. Bishop Woodward had said, that that man would be a great benefactor to the clergy, who could devise a plan by which they could receive an equivalent income by other means.—There was the authority of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Pole) that tythes were a great evil. He said, last session, he should consider himself the most fortunate servant that ever served the crown, if he could discover an adequate remedy. Mr. Perceval had acknowledged the evil, he having prepared a Bill to give relief. Lord Redesdale had also prepared a Bill—and Mr. Pitt, in his Union speech, had said that tythes operated as "a great pressure on the lower orders, and were a great practical evil." Under all these authorities, he felt himself perfectly justified in calling the attention of the House, to adopt a remedy for this great and galling grievance. His apology for again proceeding to re-urge his former arguments, consisted in the necessity of making the peculiar circumstances of Ireland, in respect to tythes, thoroughly understood. Unless these circumstances were known, an English House of Commons might conceive the system was the same in that country as in this, and that no evil existed. He rested his case wholly on the dissimilarity of the circumstances of the two countries. He did not wish to bring to his aid those general objections which great authorities had made to tythes, as a provision for a clergy; but he wholly waved them, and would shew, that there did exist in Ireland that peculiar state of things, which would admit of the commutation of tythes there, without affording any precedent for a similar measure in this country. The first distinction consisted in the religion of the Irish. If, according to the best authorities, their number was taken at five millions, (a very moderate calculation,) it would be found that one-tenth of these only belonged to the established religion. Primate Boulter and bishop Woodward were evidence of this fact, nine-tenths of the people therefore paid two establishments. But they were not the complainants. The Protestants alone had petitioned. The Catholics paid the tythes, without any complaint—they had not interfered in the discussion of the question, not wishing to allow any one to suspect them of a wish to meddle with the Protestant establishment. It was, however, but common justice to enable them to pay this establishment in a way the least onerous and oppressive. The second distinction consisted in the modern enforcement of the payment of tithes in Ireland. Primate Boulter says, "since the Reformation, while the lands were mostly in Popish hands, the clergy took what they could get thankfully; and very few went near their livings."—Things remained in this situation until the surrender of Limerick, and at this period, and not before, the Protestant clergy began to realize the right to tithe; which, before, had only existed in laws not applicable, and not submitted to by the Irish people. Primate Boulter says, the tithe of agistment was only demanded in 1720. The demand was not acceded to; and the vote of the House of Commons in 1734, took away no realized right, but one which the Irish people had never acknowledged. To this day, the clergy had never been able to enforce the tithes on many articles, which, though given by the ecclesiastical interpretations of the law, have always been in abeyance. The inference from which circumstance is this, that the assertion is not founded in fact, that the lands of Ireland are sold and let, subject to a deduction of one-tenth of the produce to the Church. From this state of things arises a third distinction, between tithes in England and Ireland; namely, the uncertainty of what things are titheable, and of what rates are payable. In some parishes no tithes have ever been claimed on hay; in others for potatoes; and in others on flax; though the legal right is vested in the clergy to enforce the payment of them.—When these parishes fall into new hands, this right is often enforced, and the greatest injury is done to the landholders who have made bargains for their farms, calculating the charge of tithe according to what has before been claimed. This uncertainty gives the clergy the means of exercising the greatest oppression—it puts the whole of the landholders entirely into their power, and is the source of endless litiga- tion, injustice, and oppression.—A fourth distinction consists in the way tithes are collected in Ireland. Every individual in Ireland, as a matter of course, is a landholder, if he can possibly become so. The poor exist on the produce of their own ground, and not, as in this country, on the wages of day labour; and there being no restraint on the division and alienation of land, there is a great facility of acquiring it.—The ground held by them is all in tillage—that held by great farmers is nearly all in pasture, and free from tithes. The consequence is, the income of the clergy is paid by the poor occupiers—by those who, in this country, would be entitled to parish relief. The further consequence is, that the clergyman is obliged to employ tithe proctors and tithe farmers to collect his tithes. The unlimited powers of the clergy on the one hand, and the absolute poverty of the people on the other, together with the severe habits of the proctors and tithe farmers, produce a degree of suffering and oppression, so galling and so universal, as it is scarcely possible to describe, almost impossible to be credited. Every art and every threat is made use of to extract from the landholder the greatest possible sum, as a composition for his tithe, and in case of refusal, the tithe is sold to the highest bidder. If a composition is agreed to, promissory notes payable in a year are taken, and thus all the lower orders are placed in the power of the proctors, it constantly happening that their notes cannot be paid when they fall due. A fifth distinction consists in the dissimilarity of the laws of England and Ireland; modern Irish statutes having deprived the Irish landholder of the redress, by compelling the clergy to draw their tithe, and in case of litigation of the trial by jury. Under all these circumstances, there was a good case for the interference of parliament, and enough was said to support the motion. But so much confidence had been expressed by the opponents to an alteration in the system, in the assertions they had advanced, that it was requisite to make some observations upon them. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Pole) had said, tithes are not the grievance which oppress the poor of Ireland. Landlords are the oppressors: in them the evil is to be found. This was a very inconsistent argument, from one who has proved the existence of the evil, by the declaration that he would consider himself the most fortunate public man that now served the crown, if he could discover a remedy for it. But this charge against the landlords of Ireland was wholly unfounded—it was equally so, if brought against those persons who were called middle-men. Nothing was more unfounded than the prevailing opinion of the character of this class of men; their origin sprung from the Catholic penal laws—the confiscations of property, the expulsion of the great Catholic families—a state of things rendering it impossible for any quiet proprietor of land, a century ago, in Ireland, to obtain any thing from it, except by letting on long terms to the few solvent Protestants that inhabited the strong towns. But whatever evil might belong to the system, it was daily wearing out. The middle-men might in some instances have acted with severity towards their tenantry; but for the most part they were highly useful and exceedingly kind and charitable to the lower orders of the people. It had been said with great confidence, that if tithes were abolished, the landholder would gain no advantage, because his rent would be raised, even higher than the tithe he paid. No one could urge this without betraying an utter ignorance of the nature of rent and tithe—rent was a portion of the profit of land—tithe of its produce—if there was no profit to be made, there could be no rent paid—if there was any produce tithe must be paid.—A man gave rent as the price for the acre of land, voluntarily, and in order to receive a valuable return for his labour and time. Tithe was paid by nine-tenths of the people of Ireland, without receiving any corresponding advantage. Rent was paid in sums that were of a fixed amount, and at certain periods of time. Tithes were neither certain in amount, or paid at any fixed times. The landholder who paid a rent, received back the whole produce of his labour and capital. In paying tithe he gave a one tenth part of his improved crops away. The laws protected most effectually the tenant in his dealings with the landlord—they placed him, in respect to tithe, wholly at the mercy of the clergy; it was, therefore, plain that the argument derived from this part of the question was good for nothing. But it was said, there is no particular plan—this, however, was a mere assertion to supply the place of better ways of combating the desired change. It was a mere trick of debate, and a most stale one, urged not only now, but against every proposition of a great and radical reform of a long established and inveterate grievance. Though the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Pole) might not have been able to discover a plan, it was no proof that every one was equally incapable of devising one. Every good system of politics was equal to the redress of every species of evil. There could be no doubt, that if the House would sincerely undertake the task, the result would be an adequate remedy. It is well known, Mr. Pitt had prepared a plan for the commutation of tithes in this country. He never would have held out the system of tithes in Ireland as a great practical evil, if he had not a plan digested in his mind for removing it. The fact was, that the only and true difficulty consisted in making a choice of several practicable plans. The first he should mention was—1st, a valuation of tithes by commissioners on the precedents of the acts of 26 Henry 8, c. 3; 27 George 3, c. 3; and 28 George 3, c. 44.—2d. An acreable tax on lands now subject to tithes, equivalent to the value of tithes now received, to be paid to the clergy. 3d. A provision to secure the clergy from the alteration of the value of money, on the precedent of 18 Eliz. c. 6, for, securing to the universities the value of their lands, by making corn the criterion of the value of the rent received in letting them. Another plan was, 1st. A valuation as before. 2d. Payment by the treasury from funds to be derived from some general equitable tax; and 3d. A provision as before mentioned, relative to the alteration of the value of money. Another plan—by giving lands in lieu of the present value received by the clergy. Another, the enacting of a general modus; and further, a remedy might be gradually obtained by only the repealing of one act of parliament; namely, the 13th of Elizabeth; as it appears, in the opinion of justice Blackstone, that before the passing of that act, every landed proprietor could, by common law, make a composition with the clergy for the tithes payable on his estate, by giving a portion of it to the clergy with the consent of the ordinary. Of these several plans, the hon. member said, if he was to give an opinion which was the best way of proceeding, he should propose, in the first instance, to adopt an acreable tax; but at the same time make an arrangement by which lands should be purchased as fast as they could be procur- ed, to be the final equivalent for the tithes to be taken away. The acreable tax to be continued to be paid to government, as interest for the sums necessary to be advanced to purchase the lands. It was not his business now to enter into the details of the plan; as his motion only required the House to consider the subject early next session. But if that motion was carried, he would be prepared to prove to the House that such a plan might be adopted upon the precedents of existing statutes, and with complete justice to the rights and interests of the Church.

The hon. member then proceeded to shew that his measure would contribute to the stability of the Established Church—that it would never be safe while the increase of its income generated so much discontent—that it would enable Ireland to extend her tillage, and thereby supply England with the food she could not grow for her own wants. That it would promote the internal tranquillity of Ireland, and by conciliating the people of that country, concentrate the resources of the empire; and concluding by moving—"That this House will, early in the next session of parliament, take into its most serious consideration, the state of the laws relating to tythes in Ireland, with a view to a legislative measure conducive to the relief of the lower orders of the people—and the more satisfactory provision of the clergy of the Established Church."

wished to avoid going over the ground which he had stated in his speech of last session, on a motion similar to the present, then brought forward by the hon. gentleman. There was nothing new in the speech of that hon. gentleman, nothing which was not stated last year. He had shewn him then, that not one of the plans which had yet been proposed for the commutation of tythes, but would have the effect of making the people of Ireland pay more than they at present paid. He called upon the hon. gentleman last year, to exert himself on the subject, and to endeavour to methodize his thoughts in a Bill, which, when brought into the House, he promised to discuss fairly with him. But instead of doing this, he had merely repeated this session what he had done in a former. The hon. gentleman had said, he wished to know what the clergy of Ireland really enjoyed at present, before proceeding to attempt to commute it. He (Mr. Pole) stated last year, that the clergy enjoyed between a twentieth and a thirtieth part of the produce; in many cases not more than a thirtieth. But in all commutations, it would be impossible to proceed upon any other principle than allowing the clergy what they were entitled to by law, namely, a tenth. If they then were to receive less than this, they would be deprived of their right; and if they were to receive a tenth, the people of Ireland would be paying more than the double of what they at present paid. The hon. gentleman had proposed an acreable tax; but this had always been found ineffectual; and it could not be carried into execution without great injustice and great violation of the existing laws. All pasture land was declared by the Irish parliament for ever free. The worst acre of land too would be put on the same footing with the best. They paid no tythes; so that there were difficulties on every point. He had said last year, that tythes were a great grievance among the lower orders of Ireland—and why? Because they did not understand the subject. The hon. member had accused him of speaking unfavourably of middle men. He would ask the hon. gentleman if he had ever heard of what were called land pirates, in Ireland? A gentleman in Ireland let 3 or 400 acres to what was called a solvent tenant, to whom it was not convenient to live on the ground, and who let it out again at a profit rent to persons who distributed it out into small parcels, and so it came at last into the hands of land pirates. The occupier of the ground had in this way, four or five rents to pay. The payment of tythes in Ireland compared to what it was in England, was a mere flea-bite. In a great part of Ireland there was no tythe on hay, in other parts, a very small tythe on potatoes; and all pasture land was free.

said, the noble lord opposite (Castlereagh) must surely have thought that some plan for the commutation of tythes was practicable, otherwise, why did he lead the people to believe so at the Union—this was one of the pledges at the Union. The right hon. gentleman who spoke last had said, that any commutation would only have the effect of making the people pay more than at present; but even supposing this to be the case, would not a man consent to pay even something more when he knew the utmost extent of it, and knew that, let him lay out what he chose in the improvement of his land, he would not be deprived of his return by additional exactions for tythes. He had the authority of a most respectable clergyman in Ireland who had resided between forty and fifty years in his parish, for saying, that if the Irish clergy were to collect their own tythes, there was not one of them that would not be an advocate for commutation. The right hon. baronet proceeded in illustration of the tyrannical exactions to which the people of Ireland were subjected by the tythe laws, to read a Notice served by Mr. James Moreland, the clergyman of the parish of New Ross, in the county of Wexford, on one of his parishioners, in which he warned him that he would not take his tenth till he should dig up all his crop at once, and that he would not allow him to dig up one potatoe before. This was the more oppressive as it was well known that the people were compelled, as their only means of subsistence, to live on the new crop of potatoes, long before a crop was fit to be dug up. This very living had been raised by Mr. Moreland in the space of seven years from 1,100l. to 3,000l. Was it to be wondered at then, if the legislature left them to themselves, that this oppressed people should be driven to the commission of the outrages at which the remembrance of 1798 made him still shudder. It might be proper to add, that this Mr. Moreland had formerly a living in Cavan. The parish was withdrawn from tillage to pasturage, for which it was unfit. One farmer said, it was impossible for any man to till in a parish where Mr. Moreland was rector. The people were obliged to procure the potatoes on which they lived, from another parish.

admitted that individual cases of oppression must exist under any administration of law; but he thought it was not fair in the right hon. baronet to hold up in this manner, to public indignation, an individual who was not there to answer for himself, and who, upon examination of the case, might possibly be found to have acted in a manner different from the information which the right hon. baronet had received. He thought it was incumbent upon those, who felt an evil to be of sufficient magnitude to state to parliament, to propose some remedy for it. Although, in some cases of the greatest magnitude, like the question of last night, parliament might take it upon itself to find the remedy; yet in all ordinary cases of legislation, it was for the gentleman who stated the evil to propose the remedy. He thought that was the course which the hon.

mover ought to have taken in this instance, He thought the right hon. baronet was too ready to consider every opinion delivered in debate as solemn pledges, which no times or circumstances could remove. He had been always friendly to a commutation for tythes, if it were practicable; but the great difficulty was to find any substitution for it which would not be felt still more heavily. Any arrangement must go on the principle, that the clergy had an absolute estate equal to one-tenth of the growing tillage of the country. He found very great difficulties in suggesting any substitute, notwithstanding all the pains he had taken on the subject. He should, however, be happy to confer with any one on the business, and would be glad to find any feasible plan proposed.

said, he had often heard the cry, that the Church was in danger, but it was not from Sectarists, Catholics, or Dissenters of any description. The danger arose chiefly from the misconduct of its own members. For this reason he had always regretted that tithes had ever existed, as they had every where created a discontent which alienated the minds of the people from the religion they were bred in. He should, therefore, support the motion, because he thought it would tend to do away tythes.

, knight of Kerry, said, there were some who doubted whether they should meddle at all with tythes, as being church-property; others doubted, whether they could legislate respecting them with any effect: but he was sure something ought to be done in regard to them, in order to relieve the grievous oppression which they were the means of inflicting on the Irish peasantry. Mr. Pitt had given it as his decided opinion, that it was a subject of vital importance, and well deserved the serious attention of the House. His hon. friend had therefore done no more than his duty in bringing forward his present proposition; and he would have been criminal if he had neglected to do so, and to call on parliament to take the subject into consideration early in the next session.

declared, that he should be glad to see a total change in the principle of tythes, but not without an ample security to those who had property in them. If he could state to the House the instances of oppression of which he had heard and read, respecting tythes in Ireland, it would make the feelings of Eng- lishmen revolt. Convinced that these was no subject of greater importance to the empire, he should certainly support the motion.

asked to whom were the people of Ireland to look for redress but to their representatives? The grievances with which the system of tythes abounded, were acknowledged by all parties, and he could not therefore perceive any rational objection to the motion.

was astonished, at the difficulty of obtaining information on the subject of tythes in Ireland; but it was evident in many parts of that country the peasantry were much oppressed. It was a great advantage of the Union, that it brought the condition of the lower orders of the people of Ireland more completely under the contemplation and consideration of the empire.

said, that after the very able manner his arguments had been supported by his hon. friends, he should not detain the House many moments. He begged, however, to call their attention to the declaration of the noble lord. He had said he felt the strongest impressions of the great evils under which tythes are collected in Ireland—of the great relief, a remedy consistent with the rights of the clergy would afford—and of the value such a remedy would be to the stability of the Church. These are the three propositions which it was the object of his argument to prove.—He therefore felt that he had been most completely borne out in the correctness of that argument by the noble lord's declaration. His offer to communicate with him on the subject, with a view to the arrangement of some remedy, he would accept most thankfully; and he should undertake the task with a determination that the noble lord should not find him wanting in zeal and industry to give effect to those intentions of fairly meeting the difficulties which he believed him seriously to possess. In regard to the speech of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Pole), it was rather hard that he should censure him for not obeying his injunctions to prepare and propose a plan in the beginning of it, and then occupy two-thirds of his argument in endeavouring to shew his plan was a bad one. What he had said in respect to that plan, was wholly irrelevant, and when the proper time should come, he would shew that none of his objections deserved the least credit.

For the motion 36; Against it 39; Majority 3.