, having stated his reasons for postponing to a future period the Resolutions he had intended to bring forward this day, relative to the Irish Civil List Act, proceeded to call the attention of the House to a subject of which he had given notice, namely, the Inland Navigation of Ireland; and in doing so, he said he should have little more to do than to advert to the papers already on their table, for the purpose of bringing under one succinct view the real state of the question. By an act of the Irish parliament, the sum of 500,000l. had been granted for the prosecution of the Inland Navigation of Ireland, and it was directed by the same act, for the purposes of economy, that this sum should be placed under the management and direction of five directors, with a salary of 500l. a year to each. In this view, however, the purposes of economy, which the act had in view, by the appointment of those directors, would have been better answered, if a stipulated sum had been granted them, instead of an annuity, to prolong the duration of which they would be likely to husband the money, not so much with a view to the purposes for which it was granted, as to benefit themselves. This, in fact, had been the case; for any gentleman would find, on a reference to the documents, that within a very short period, out of 197,000l. one-fourth had been appropriated to the directors; in the last year, out of 17,700l. the sum of 5,300l. was absorbed to other purposes than those of the prosecution of Inland Navigation. On a comparison with the manner in which the concerns of the Caledonian Canal were administered, a striking difference would appear; for there, out of 540,000l. under the management of nine directors, the whole salaries and incidents, including the engineers, amounted to no more than 12,000l. being in the one, only a twenty-fifth part; while in the other, it was one-fourth of the sum expended. As a proof of the abuses which existed in this department, he referred to a letter he had received from a gentleman of great property and respectability in Limerick, which stated, that in consequence of a squabble between the trustees of the Shannon Navigation, and the commissioners of Inland Navigation, relative to some works which had been carried away by a winter flood, the whole progress of that Navigation had been put a stop to, and the public deprived for two years of the benefit of the work. His object then was, to record those facts on the Journals, as a ground-work for the last Resolution which he meant to propose, and which went to this, that the Inland Navigation of Ireland should in future be placed under the controul of the Board of Treasury in Ireland, who did not appear to be overburdened with business, and had sufficient leisure for such an undertaking. The right hon. baronet then read the following Resolutions, which he meant to propose, in order to put the House in possession of the subject of his motion:

1. "That the Irish statute 40 Geo. 3, c. 51, directs the sum of 500,000l. to be applied to the improvement of the Inland Navigation of Ireland, and in order that regulations may be established, by which the system may be carried on with propriety and economy, empowers the lord lieutenant to appoint five persons directors of such establishment, with an annual salary to each of 500l.

2. "That, between the 12th of August, 1800, when the appointment of those directors took place, and the 5th of January, 1812, the sum of 412,002l. was issued from the treasury of Ireland on account of the aforesaid grant, of which 197,260l. was paid to the directors, to be expended in detail on works carried on by engineers employed by them, and 214,752l. was paid to different private canal companies, upon certificates from the Navigation Board, of contracts entered into and completed by the said private companies.

3. "That out of the above sum of 197,260l. the commissioners entrusted with the management thereof have applied to the payment of salaries and incidental expences of their own establishment, exclusive of engineers, 57,604l. which is much more than one fourth part of the sum so expended in detail under their management, and inclusive of engineers and their incidental charges 76,946l. fully two fifth parts of the sum so expended.

4. "That upon the Caledonian Canal, between October 1803, and May, 1811, 342,915l. have been expended in detail under the controul of nine commissioners acting without salary, and that the salaries incidents and travelling expences of all persons employed under those commissioners, including engineers, amounted to 12,740l. and the charges of labour and workmanship to 259,097l.

5. "That the expenditure of such part of the Irish grant of 500,000l. as still remains unapplied, and of any further sums which parliament may think proper to appropriate in aid of the great object of improvement of the Inland Navigation of Ireland, may be adequately and effectually applied and controuled by the Board of Treasury of Ireland, and engineers under their direction; and that the further continuance of the Navigation Board of Ireland would be a profuse and unjustifiable application of public money."

The first Resolution being read from the chair,

said, that he hoped to be able to prove, to the satisfaction of the House, that the Resolutions proposed by the right hon. baronet were altogether unnecessary. He had made general statements of various kinds, but had mentioned no particular subjects which could attach blame either to the Irish government or the commissioners. So far from those gentlemen having had sinecure situations, their salaries were stopped, if three of them did not attend two days in every week—and out of the 57,000l., mentioned as the gross sum appropriated by them, the mere amount of their salaries for the period was 36,000l. and the overplus could be easily accounted for, when it was considered that the commissioners were obliged to have a variety of officers at all the different canals. No board could have acted with greater attention to economy, or to the public interest; and the fact was, that if government had acceded to some of the plans recommended by them, the whole sum would have been expended long ago; which sufficiently refuted what had been advanced by the right hon. baronet on that point. Though he had pronounced a severe censure on the commissioners, the only fact he had adduced was that of a squabble between them and the Shannon Navigation Company. But their conduct, in this instance, had been guided by a principle of economy, and he had no hesitation in saying, that he would most cheerfully agree to the papers respecting the whole transaction being produced. He denied also, that the board had nothing to do—for their attention had been assiduously directed to the concerns of the Royal Canal, the Grand Canal, the Barrow Navigation, &c. and, in addition, they had prepared an able memoir on the situation of Ireland with respect to inland navigation—in short, their whole time and attention was devoted to the object entrusted to them. The right hon. gentleman then paid a high compliment to the ability, diligence, and meritorious public services of Mr. Sackville Hamilton, the chairman of the board; and after denying that it would be possible for the lords of the treasury in Ireland to give their attention to the subject, from the various duties they had to perform, he concluded by moving "The previous question" to the first Resolution; and signifying his intention of moving a negative to the last, if he was successful in that motion.

said, the right hon. gentleman had entirely mistaken the object of the right hon. baronet's motion, it was not intended as a censure either of the commissioners or of the government, but of the system. This system commenced under an act passed at the recommendation of a committee of the Irish House of Commons, and consisted of placing the direction of inland navigation in Ireland under commissioners, having powers to give half a million of money in aid of new canals. On reviewing the fruits of the plan, he was of opinion, that the public had not derived that return which so large a public aid entitled them to.—That the works actually executed, were not by any means so extensive, as might have been made if this sum had been given at once to the established canal companies by parliament under proper regulations. These companies would willingly have expended a large proportional sum to the aid received; and thus the half million would probably have obtained an extension of canal navigation costing from 700,000l. to 1,000,000l. of money. These companies, particularly the Grand Canal Company, had shewn by their success and powers, in executing works of this kind, that under such a plan the object of parliament would have been by this time fully attained, and, till it was adopted, he was sure that every new effort would be attended with new disappointment. He begged to be understood as concurring in every sentiment expressed by the right hon. gentleman concerning the commissioners, more particularly in what he had said respecting the first commissioner—his objection went to the system alone, as one very expensive to the public, and very inadequate to its object. He could not admit that the works executed by the commissioners formed any ground for continuing them. To attempt to keep canals in repair, and to manage their concerns by public commissioners, was highly impolitic. Those canals ought to be sold to private undertakers, with powers to levy such tolls as would be sufficient to keep them in repair, and give a fair profit for the trouble of superintending them—the principle of suffering any body of public servants to pay themselves out of any given fund for which they were unaccountable, was improper. He sincerely hoped that some mode would be adopted to give greater efficacy to the desire of parliament, to extend the canals of Ireland; no measure would be more conducive to its general welfare, and also to the interests of this country.

passed some high eulogiums upon the chairman and other commissioners who had been appointed to carry the Resolutions of the Irish House of Commons into effect. As to the proposition for placing the duties which had hitherto been performed by those commissioners upon the Board of Treasury, he thought it highly objectionable; and one which could not, consistently with any of those principles upon which the original system was adopted, be acceded to. With respect to the suggestion that there was no necessity to keep the Canal Board perpetual, he begged leave to observe, that to this, as a general proposition, he was ready to agree; and when once the purposes for which that board was appointed was effected, he should certainly agree to their removal, but until that end was accomplished, all the objects which were anticipated, and the inland navigation of Ireland, under their auspices, had arrived at a pitch of superiority which, under any other circumstances, could not have been attained.—As the author of the measure, he felt no reason for being ashamed: but, on the contrary, was fully satisfied that the ends he had in view were fully accomplished. The noble lord concluded by declaring his intention to oppose the Resolutions.

said, that so far from being ashamed of being the author of the measure which was now the subject of discussion, the noble lord had every reason to congratulate himself and the country on the happy results which had been derived from it.—The hon. gentleman then adverted generally to the great improvements in the inland navigation of Ireland, as well in the Shannon as elsewhere, circumstances which he considered as in a great measure attributable to the exertions of the commissioners, and particularly to the talent, zeal, and experience of their chairman.

, in reply, said, he did not mean to deny the merits of the chairman of the commissioners; he gave him full credit for all the talent which had been attributed to him. All he meant to urge was, that as the Caledonian Canal, which was admitted to be a work of considerable magnitude, and on which a sum of 340,000l. had been expended, was carried on without commissioners; the inland navigation of Ireland might be promoted with equal facility. It was such charges as these, as well as a variety of other charges equally unnecessary, which were observable in every department of the Irish government, that reduced the revenue of that country, and placed her in a comparatively dependent state upon England. This it was he wished to obviate, and therefore it was that he felt himself justified in submitting to the House the Resolutions which he had read.

After a few further observations the question was put, and the gallery was cleared for a division—the result of which was as follows:

For the Resolution 13; Against it 51; Majority 38. The Resolution was consequently negatived, as were all the others, without a division.

rose, in pursuance of his notice, to submit to the House a proposition relative to the tithing of potatoes in Ireland. He observed, that the tithe upon this species of property was extremely partial throughout that country. In some provinces it was collected with the utmost tenacity, while in others it was not taken at all. In Connaught, for instance, there was no tithe taken on potatoes, and in the North of Ireland, the tithe was by no means general. His object, therefore, was to bring this description of tithe under some degree of regulation, and if possible, to ameliorate, in this respect, the situation of the poorer classes of the community of that country. The principle upon which he acted, was in a great measure similar to that upon which the act of the 28th of the King was passed for limiting the tithe upon hemp. The tithe was limited with a view to encourage the growth of that article; and if it was considered expedient to encourage the growth of hemp, he thought it would be deemed infinitely more important to encourage the growth of a vegetable which constituted the sole food of the greater part of the agricultural peasantry of Ireland. He would do the clergy of Ireland the justice to admit, that they did not in general exact this tithe with severity; but in tolerating the system of tithe farming, they suffered to exist a fruitful source of extortion, by which the most helpless objects were oppressed in the most dreadful manner; a circumstance which he hoped would be considered by the House as sufficient ground for the introduction of the Bill which it was his intention to submit to their consideration. The right hon. gentleman then took a view of the right of the Church to exact one-tenth of the produce of the land, by way of tithes. This was a principle which he could by no means admit to exist in the laws of the land, and which, if duly weighed, he was convinced could not be supported by existing statutes. After some ingenious arguments on this topic, he said, his intention at present was simply to bring in the Bill, with a view to its passing through one stage, in order that it might be printed. After which it could be considered by the clergy, as well as the laity of Ireland; and in the course of the next session could be argued with all the advantages of mature deliberation and collective opinion. The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill for better ascertaining the Tithe on Potatoes in Ireland.

said, that if he had not already agreed to the introduction of the Bill, in consequence of a conversation which he had held with the right hon. mover, he should, from the principle which he had last laid down, have felt it his duty to resist it in the very first stage. What! would the right hon. gentleman assert, that the Church had no right to that property which had been considered inherent in it from the first formation of the constitution, and which was recognized by every law of the land? No proposition could be more monstrous or more inconsistent with those principles which formed the very basis of ecclesiastical right. As well might the right hon. gentleman say that he had no right to his own estate, according to ancient principles of service, and so forth. The House, he was sure, would not sanction so extraordinary a proposition. As, however, he had declared his intention not to oppose the Bill in the first instance, he should now redeem his pledge; impressing, however, upon the House his total and unqualified disapprobation of the principles which had been laid down by the right hon. gentleman as to the right of the Church to all those dues which, from the earliest periods, had been yielded to them without question.

said, if there was one time more inauspicious than another for the introduction of the measure now submitted to the House, it was the present. It would tend to shew the Protestant clergy of Ireland, who were a very numerous and respectable body, that a disposition existed to deprive them of those rights which had never heretofore been disputed. At such a time as the present, when the Catholic claims were to become a subject of general discussion, a measure for which he was the sincere advocate, he thought the proposition was calculated to produce the worst effects; and, under this impression, he should take the sense of the House on the expediency of granting the motion. As an advocate of the Catholics, he should be anxious to demonstrate to the Protestant clergy that he was no less anxious to protect their interests. The arguments of the right hon. gentleman were exactly the same which had been made use of in the National Assembly of France against the Biens de l'Eglise; and it would appear therefore, that he was indebted to French literature for all his ideas on the subject.

said, he founded the Bill on its own merits, and not upon any observation he had made, or opinion he held, respecting the rights of the clergy.

wished to shew that the right hon. gentleman was not entitled to place so much confidence in his own opinion, of the impracticability of commuting tithes. He begged leave to state that there were very great authorities who differed from him. In the first place, he would name a dignified clergyman, archdeacon Paley, he had said that a commutation was very easy to be effected; next, he would quote a great lawyer, lord chief justice Mansfield, he had been the advocate of a commutation; and lastly, he would refer him to the opinion of a great statesman, Mr. Pitt. He had prepared a Bill for a commutation of tithes in England, and would never have said, as he had said in his speech on the Union. that tithes were a great pressure on the lower orders of the Irish people, and a great practical evil, unless he had prepared a plan for giving relief. What the right hon. gentleman had said, in respect to his intentions, concerning lay tithes, was not correct, he meant to commute them also; and so far from the exemption from tithes on some articles, being an advantage to the Irish, as that exemption depended on the clergy not enforcing their right, the right when enforced, as was now daily the case, operated as the greatest grievance.

professed himself to be one of the most strenuous supporters of the rights of the Church; but he would not, however, oppose the introduction of the Bill, because he wished to give it fair play, and to see what it would propose to the legislature. He was sorry to hear the distinction made by the right hon. gentleman, between Church, and other property.

. I made no such distinction.

.—Then I am glad to be set right; for the property of the Church has a prescription reaching into ages, which no lay property can boast.

spoke against the introduction of the Bill.

thought his right hon. friend extremely hardly dealt with. The usage of the House was swerved from in the present instance, for the debate was renewed after his right hon. friend's reply. He then ridiculed the solicitude of the noble lord opposite, for the sacred rights of the Church,—that very noble lord, who, at the Union, recognised the Act of Agistment,—when he must have well known that the consequences of that Act were, that the clergy had lost their right of tithe to the pasture of the rich, and were driven for support to the potatoe gardens of the poor. How conscientious was his regard for the rights of the Church!

said, that he had no objection to withdraw his opposition after what had passed.

objected to the principle of the Bill, as, in his opinion, it would go to take away the right of tithes to potatoes, where they had not as yet been cultivated.

The question was then put, and leave given to bring in the Bill.

moved, that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of Supply; and the Speaker having left the chair, his lordship said the case he had to lay before the Committee was one that was attended with several circumstances of a particular nature and of peculiar hardship. In the manufactories of cotton goods, carried on at Manchester, great advantages had for many years past been derived from machinery; the first article of this kind which had been produced was called a jenny, and had prevailed for a considerable length of time. On this a very great improvement had been made by sir Richard Arkwright, who thereby acquired an immense fortune, and the public, through the extension of our manufactures, most extraordinary and extensive benefits. After this improvement had continued for several years. Mr. Crompton, whose case he now brought forward, had invented an article of machinery, further improving on that of sir Richard Arkwright, which Mr. Crompton denominated a Mule, from the use of which, advantages almost incalculable had been already, and were likely to be derived in future. It happened, however, as was unfortunately too often the case with superior genius, that Mr. Crompton was in that class of the community, a common manufacturer, and having nothing to depend on for his subsistence but his daily labour, he had not the pecuniary means of securing it to himself by a patent—the only regular and legitimate security applied to on similar occasions—and was not able to bring into action those alterations and improvements with which his mind was so deeply impressed. Having, however, communicated to many respectable manufacturers those ideas on the subject, which he could safely divulge, without imparting his secret, he was recommended to try the experiment of a subscription, and from various promises of assistance and support in that way, which had ultimately turned out almost nugatory, he had been induced to lay open his secret, and the public had for many years derived from it the greatest advantages. He had thus been compelled to petition parliament,^* and the late Mr. Perceval, from what he saw of the case, sanctioned its going to a committee above stairs, who, after hearing a great deal of most respectable evidence, reported, that the petitioner was entitled to remuneration by parliament. The committee had not named any sum, but had commissioned him, as their chairman, to bring the matter forward; and he would conclude by moving, That a sum, not exceeding 5,000l. be granted to Mr. Crompton, as a remuneration for his invention.

seconded the motion.

expressed himself satisfied that Mr. Crompton deserved this remuneration.

could not avoid saying this was one of the transcendant cases that were taken out of the general mass applying to parliament for aid, and he hoped the remuneration would be granted without fee or deduction.

^* For the Petition see Vol. 21, p. 1173.

The resolution was then agreed to.