moved the Financial Resolutions, for which see July 23.

rose and said, that in calling the attention of the House to the subject now under consideration, in proposing to the House to found a Bill on the Report of the Committee, was anxious, on his own account, and on account of his colleagues, to explain the reasons which had made them feel it to be necessary to call the attention of the House to the present disturbed state of the country. The House would perhaps allow him to say, that nothing but a conviction that not to do so would be to omit that which it was their duty to do, could induce them now to bring this subject before parliament. It had been their wish and their endeavour to preserve the public peace by an ordinary course of law, and it was their hope that they would have been enabled to abstain from proposing such measures as now appeared to be necessary, without being guilty of an abandonment of duty. The delays which had taken place, he trusted the House would consider as an earnest of the wishes of government that parliament might be allowed to separate, after the arduous labours of a long session, without being called upon to give their attention to that which was now brought under their consideration, and certainly they had had reason to indulge such a hope, as several of the disturbed counties, and the town of Nottingham in particular, had been restored to a state of comparative tranquillity by the exercise of the ordinary course of law. Special commissioners had been sent down to Lancaster and Cheshire, and these, with the means which the magistrates had it in their power to call forth, it was hoped, would have been sufficient to repress the evil without any further aid from parliament. Unhappily, the disturbances, in their progress, had assumed a character which at first they did not bear. They had assumed more of a military character; they were, more regular, more formal, and consequently more formidable latterly, than they had at first appeared to be. They had been marked by a desire for arms, and that desire for arms had so increased, that his Majesty's government would have failed in their duty not to have brought the circumstances under the consideration of the House. The communications lately received from the lieutenant of the west riding in Yorkshire, and many other quarters, contained representations, not only of the progress of a system of a most dangerous and alarming nature, but they set forth, that, unless some additional power were granted in aid of the law as it at present stood, they could not cope with the evil. He (lord Castlereagh) had been anxious, if government could have made up its mind sufficiently early to interpose, to prevent the call of the House being discharged; but at that time ministers were waiting for information on the subject from the lieutenant of the west riding in Yorkshire, to enable them to determine on the line of conduct proper to be pursued; and the House would recollect that on the next day but one after the call of the House had been discharged, he had given notice that he should have a communication to make respecting the disturbed districts. In looking to the nature of the evil which now pressed on their attention, it appeared to him more material to consider its present aspect, than to trace it to its source. With respect to its causes, a variety of opinions might be entertained, and though it might be desirable to look to its origin, in order to ascertain the extent of its malignity, yet still to him its present aspect appeared of superior importance. It was his opinion that the evil would not have arrived to its present extent, but for circumstances which he hoped were but temporary in their nature. He considered it as arising in a great degree from the distresses of the manufacturing districts, aggravated as they were by the high price of provisions, which had pressed severely on the lower orders; these persons uniting, in the first instance, without any intention of carrying their proceedings to the lengths to which they had been carried, had, from making war on their masters, and against machinery, felt their own power. They then sought new enemies, and at last assumed a military character of so serious a nature, so malignant, anti so marked by conduct and deliberation, that government would be culpable longer to forbear calling the attention of the House to the subject. From the oaths by which they were bound, it must be seen, that a combination existed of a most secret nature, and when it was known that such an association was formed, that oaths were taken to commit the most diabolical crime which society knew of, if they were betrayed; it would be a delusion calculated to lull the country into a false security, not to call for some legislative measure to meet the necessity. If something were not now done to avert the evil with the strong arm of the law, there was no danger to which combination could lead, which, from the character of the present disturbances, might not be expected. Under these circumstances, the nature and character of the association had been described by the committee in their Report. They had not entered into a detail of all the transactions connected with it, as to such a detail their Report was inadequate; yet they had stated enough to call the attention of the House to the subject. He understood an hon. member to have said in the committee, when he (lord C.) was not present, that he did not imagine that any thing more was necessary than that the magistrates should exercise the law as it at present stood, with vigour; and that he seemed in some measure to blame the committee for not going into further examinations. With respect to the latter observation, he would say, that he (lord C.) had thought, that to go into parole evidence on the subject, would not give them a more perfect view of the state of the case than they had of it without going into such evidence. It was not for the committee to go into a general enquiry into the state of the country. They had been appointed for a particular purpose, and it was their province merely to enquire into the nature of one particular evil, and to consider what was the remedy which ought to be applied to it. The hon. member would not deny that it was competent for parliament to make an enactment, without first making such an enquiry; and the only question therefore was, whether government ought to have made any communication at all to parliament on the subject; or whether, having made a communication, that communication was sufficiently ample? The notoriety of the disturbances was such, that every person who at all attended to the ordinary sources of information must be in some measure acquainted with them; but when that general information was fortified with that furnished by the sources thrown open to the secret committee, he apprehended no doubt could remain of the nature of the combination. He thought no committee could have a more extensive case made out. They had before them the opinions of the various lieutenancies—the depositions given before the lieutenants, together with local informations on the subject. Various representations had been made, and particularly from the west riding of Yorkshire, stating the law, as at present exercised, to be insufficient to enable the magistrates effectually to cope with the danger. They had, besides, communications from all the magistrates of the disturbed districts, containing depositions on oath, many of which had been confirmed by facts which had come out on the trials and convictions which had taken place. They had evidence of the secret meetings of the rioters, which several subsequent circumstances proved to be correct. The events stated to have been determined on at the secret meetings had been realized. In particular, they had received intelligence of the meditated destruction of a mill, which was put off from time to time by the secret meeting, and was ultimately destroyed at the time last appointed. The subject now therefore came before parliament, not merely on the ground of the notoriety of the danger, but on the ground of that danger being confirmed by the Report of the Secret Committee; and on all the material assertions made, he believed there had been no essential difference in the committee. In looking to what length it might be desirable to go on the present occasion, he admitted that neither the magistrates nor the government had a right to expect any extraordinary powers from parliament, unless they could prove a necessity for such aid, from the impracticability of effectually meeting the evil by the ordinary course of law. He understood an hon. gent had said, the law, if exercised with vigour, would be equal to the emergency of the case. He (lord C.) was of a different opinion. As the law at present stood, it could not at once be exercised with sufficient vigour every where to remove the danger. Some magistrates, through various circumstances, were incapable of exerting themselves so effectually as others. If thus the legislature were to wait till the utmost the law could at present effect had been done every where, they might find that principle pushed too far to be very dangerous. On the other hand, it would be unfair and untrue to describe the conduct of the magistrates as having been undeserving, or, indeed, as not having been meritorious. Generally speaking, their conduct had been highly meritorious; and if some ex- ceptions appeared, if the conduct of some had appeared less praise worthy than that of others, enough was not known of all the circumstance of the districts in which they acted, to justify any thing like a charge against such magistrates. Admitting the magistrates would in every part be enabled to discharge their duty with vigour, he still contended that the evil bore a character with which the existing power of the magistrate was not able to contend. On the part of government, the most unremitting exertions had been made to avoid coming to parliament for extraordinary powers. Very early in the progress of the disturbances a large military force had been sent down to quell the disturbed districts. It was so great that at first it might appear sufficient to protect the peaceable inhabitants from any dangers, but the proceedings which had taken place on the part of the rioters, were of such a description, that all the army of the empire could not afford protection and safety to the King's faithful subjects against their depredations, as the law at present stood. Government had also encouraged the lieutenancies to call forth, in as extensive a degree as they might think necessary, that species of force, which was so peculiarly adapted to their defence—the local militia; and he was happy to say, that on this occasion, the value and stability of that force had been most eminently conspicuous. The government had also given the greatest encouragement to voluntary associations for the defence of property. They had been anxious to impress on the minds of the inhabitants, that it was not by the military that the rioters could be effectually put down, but by those only who had a stake and property in, and a knowledge of the country. They, therefore, set the inhabitants in array against the disturbers. They had also given them the benefit of a valuable measure, enabling them to establish a watch and ward in that district. As the law at present stood, it had been frequently found impracticable to enforce it. The unlawful Oaths Act, and the Act for punishing more severely the destroying of machinery, &c. had been proposed to meet the evil, but these of themselves were not sufficient. He would now call the attention of the House to those evils which it was desirable to prevent, and to meet which, the power of the magistrates, as the law at present stood, was particularly inadequate. He would here particularly state, that he would rather look to a future recurrence to parliament, under the most inconvenient circumstances, than call at present for any thing more than those precautionary measures which circumstances rendered absolutely necessary. With this feeling he wished the law to be limited, not only in point of time, but also with respect to space. He would wish it in the first instance, not to affect the whole country, but only those districts requiring extraordinary powers. It was his intention in asking leave to bring in this Bill, to propose to limit its duration to the shortest period at which parliament could be expected to assemble, to act on its assembling as circumstances might require. He wished it to be confined to the counties where the disturbances prevailed in the first instance, leaving the crown the power of extending its provisions by proclamation, if it should appear necessary. There were three points, to which he thought attention ought to be particularly directed: 1st. To make a more effectual provision to keep the rioters from possessing themselves of fire-arms. 2. To guard against the effects of tumultuary meetings. 3 To give more effectual power and more extensive jurisdiction to the magistrates of the disturbed districts. In the first place, with respect to arms: from an early period it had been the object of the rioters to possess themselves of arms; at first this had appeared merely an incidental object, but latterly it had been their professed system to strip the country of arms. With a view more effectually to enable the magistrates to recover those arms, it was his intention to propose an alteration in the law. At present the law required that a deposition should be made on oath that arms were deposited in a certain place, before a search could be made. This being the law, even after the events which had taken place at Huddersfield, when the whole place was stripped of arms, a search could not be made without such a deposition. The first regulation he would propose was, that any magistrate of the disturbed districts should have the power of searching, and of authorising his officers, by his warrant, to search not only for stolen arms, but for secreted arms, and he thought there could be no hesitation in giving them the power of searching for both. If they were to stop there, they would not go far enough. Many well disposed persons would willingly give up their arms to the safe custody of the mili- tary, who were afraid of being seen voluntarily to give them up, lest such conduct should expose them to the fury of the rioters. He wished to give the magistrates the power of calling on the inhabitants to surrender their arms, receipts being given for the same. At the same time, he was for making a provision to suffer those to retain their arms, who would probably have occasion, and who having them, would be likely to use them in defence of their property. To persons so wishing to retain their arms, and not satisfying the magistrates with respect to the purposes for which they wished to retain them, he proposed to give the benefit of an appeal to a special session, to be held every three weeks. Tumultuary meetings had lately taken place, not merely in the night, but in the day time; a large number of persons had been seen in military array, exercising themselves in the use of arms. [Here Mr. Whitbread seemed to make some objections to what the noble lord had advanced.] The hon. gentleman might doubt to what purpose such a force would be applied when trained; but he (lord C.) thought the hon. gentleman would admit, that in no country was an army suffered to exist not trained under the law, much less raised in opposition to it. Whether the force of which he spoke should apply itself merely to effect the destruction of mills and machinery (the most innocent objects which he conceived it could be supposed to have in view) or ultimately to oppose the King's troops, he was confident that he should have the hon. gentleman's strong support on this point, that such an army ought to be put down. A body of this description, consisting of about 700 persons, had been known to assemble on Sunday, while divine service was performing at about one or two o'clock in the day, for the purpose of training themselves. On such an occasion the magistrates could only read the Riot Act and order them to disperse. They could, however, do nothing till the end of an hour, and thus the rioters had time to accomplish the purpose for which they were assembled, as they did not assemble to commit acts of violence in the first instance. The magistrates of York, in stating this, had not in his opinion overstepped their duty. They had not set forth an imaginary case, but in his opinion they had made out a clear case, and they had fairly declared, that with no more powers than they at present possess- ed, they could not be answerable for what might occur. He should propose, that the magistrates should have the power of immediately dispersing a tumultuous body, and to make those who did not disperse when so called upon, liable to be punished. The Bill would fall short of the object for which it was framed, if it only gave this power with respect to one description of meetings. It was desirable that, it should extend equally to nocturnal meetings and to meetings in the day time, and it would therefore be framed so as to give the magistrates power immediately to disperse all tumultuary meetings, whether they were for the purpose of training or drilling themselves in the use of arms or not; and not only to give the power of dispersing such bodies, for if their power were confined to dispersing them, the measure night be far from being such as was necessary to prevent the accomplishment of the rioters designs; he wished, therefore, not only to give that power, but also to give the power of arrest. He would enable the magistrates to arrest those who had not dispersed immediately, hold them to bail for the offence, and put them on their trial at the quarter sessions for a misdemeanor. The plan of the Bill was, to embrace and to meet all the proceedings of the rioters as far as possible. Now, with respect to a third point, he had to observe, that in many parts there were not a sufficient number of magistrates to enforce the law with all the rigour that might be desired, and on the borders of the disturbed counties, by escaping into an adjoining county, the law might be defeated for want of sufficient jurisdiction. He would, therefore, propose, that for the time being, the magistrates in the disturbed counties and in the counties adjacent, should have a concurrent jurisdiction. He thought the House would see the measure would be likely to be much more effectual if the limits of a county were not suffered to form a boundary to the jurisdiction of a magistrate for the present. This, the House would feel, was as small a departure as could possibly be made from the established law of the land to meet an extraordinary case, and the measure proposed would be limited in its operation, as much as possible. If these suggestions were adopted, he hoped the present disturbances would rapidly subside. It was acting on a parliamentary feeling, and on a feeling which every be- nevolent mind must approve, not to overstep the necessity of the case. He hoped much good would result from the attention of parliament being given to this subject. He had never known an instance in which respect for the decision of parliament had not produced beneficial consequences. He hoped, in the same instance, it would have a proper effect on the unfortunate and deluded men whose conduct rendered some proceeding necessary.—He called them unfortunate, because he believed many of them had been drawn into this association, ignorant of the consequences to which it would lead; and many, he believed, having engaged, were afraid to detach themselves from the confederacy on account of the oath they had taken, and from a dread of the vengeance of their companions. When, however, they saw that the attention of parliament was directed to the subject, anxious to deal leniently by them, yet firm in their proceedings, to their decision he thought they would bow. Disappointed in this expectation, parliament would be called together under circumstances the most inconvenient, to take such measures as might become necessary; but even this, unpleasant as it might be, was thought preferable to anticipating that necessity, and requiring stronger measures than appeared to be at present demanded. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill "For the preservation of the public peace in the disturbed counties, and to give additional powers to the justices for a limited time, for that purpose."

said, that the excuse of the noble lord for not sooner requesting the advice and assistance of parliament, and for having discharged the order for the call of the House, only a day or two before he gave notice of the communication which led to the measures he proposed to bring forward at the present moment, was, that he waited until government should obtain some information from the north, which should enable them to make up their minds upon at least one subject; not indeed upon the question of what measure should be recommended by the cabinet, but whether they should take upon themselves to recommend any at all. This was not a matter of much importance as respected the present debate; but it shewed what confidence the House and the country were to place in men of suck vaccillating minds, and of such indecision of character in times like those in which they lived. The noble lord had alluded to differences of opinion in the committee. The noble lord wished merely to look at the surface of the evil: he (Mr. Whitbread) on the contrary, was anxious to ascertain its cause, as the only means of applying an effectual remedy. That the short delay that would thus have been occasioned would have produced no injury, he had the satisfaction of knowing from the circumstance, that from the 23d of June to the 8th of July, ministers had received no further intelligence from those quarters, whose duty it would have been to have transmitted it, if the evil had been aggravated. For his own part, he felt it his duty to declare, he was by no means satisfied with the present mode of proceeding. The consequence of not being allowed to enter upon the verbal evidence was the jejune report, with which the House of Commons had been affronted, and the House was left in comparative darkness, instead of being provided with such facts of the testimony, at least, as could, without danger to the witnesses, be published. The noble lord had made a long statement of what he called facts, which was wholly unwarranted in many parts by the Report upon the table. His (Mr. Whitbread's) wish had been to try the truth of the anonymous information communicated, but although he divided the committee, and had in one instance seven out of seventeen, and in another nine out of nineteen in favour of his proposal, they were obliged to content themselves with that intelligence which government thought fit to supply. He called upon the noble lord to point out to him any part of the Report upon the table, or of the documents on which it was founded, which authorized the assertion he had made, that there existed an army arrayed in the country, and that it was necessary to put a stop to the increase of that army. He denied positively that such was the case—nay, so far from an army, he would undertake to say there was no evidence of there being a regiment—not a company—nay, not even half a company of such persons as the noble lord had so emphatically described. The noble lord had naturally shewn a great reluctance to enter into the origin of these unfortunate events, but the real truth of the case was, that we had a very extensive manufacturing population, brought, from want of employment, into a state of the most deplorable distress, out of which dreadful state all those as- semblies had arisen. The nation depended for its prosperity on the success of its manufactures—the system of policy pursued during the last twenty years, had reduced the manufacturing classes to a state of distress which had given rise to the disturbances so much lamented in Nottingham, Yorkshire, Lancashire, and Cheshire. The noble lord had talked likewise of leaders, but where was there one to be found? Only in the terrified imaginations of ministers. No distinct combinations were proved: no one, two, or three men were found connected to manage the proceedings of the rioters: they were on the contrary, all disunited, and disjoined, without even any apparent and settled purpose. That the distress existed was certain, and the cause of it was equally obvious, as well as that the origin of the disturbances was that distress. But was there the shadow of evidence to shew that there were any such dreadful and terrific combinations as the noble lord had conjured up? It was true that designing men had taken advantage of this disorganization to promote their private and unworthy views, but not to produce general dissatisfaction against the constituted authorities, or to overturn the government. It was ridiculous to imagine that it could be so. Where did the disturbances begin? In Nottingham. What was the origin? Disputes between the workmen and their masters. What was the state of Nottingham now? That of profound quiet. Such, he trusted, if the laws were vigorously executed, would soon be the state of all the districts at present disturbed. A machine at some one place, perhaps, had been broken, and then they began at another; and, misled by self-interested individuals, the contagion soon spread, and great atrocities had been committed in various parts of the kingdom. Most of those who had been the principal actors, had however been brought to justice, for they had been convicted, and had expiated by their lives their offences against the law. The noble lord had complimented the magistracy all over the kingdom; nothing would have given him greater pleasure than to have subscribed to that opinion, but he must assert, without meaning to make any individual allusions, that in some particular districts, the magistrates had not done their duty.

With respect to the Watch and Ward Act, which the noble lord had chosen to introduce into his speech, but for what purpose he (Mr. W.) could not penetrate, the fact was, that in the committee there was not the smallest evidence brought to shew that it had ever been carried into execution; but there was sufficient evidence to shew that the inhabitants could not be brought to execute it; that the ill-affected impressed the well-affected with such a terror, that nobody would venture to expose himself by his activity. Why, he would ask, had no attempt been made to execute the existing laws? He denied that any such attempt had ever been made. He, for one, therefore, could not give his consent to the introduction of this new proposition, except the latter part of it relative to the concurrent jurisdiction of the magistrates in adjoining counties. The noble lord had alluded to extensive seizures of arms accumulated in one place—but he denied that there was any evidence of this. Could the noble lord point out where 50 stand of arms had ever been seized at any one time. It was true that, at Stockport, there were 200 stand of arms taken; but how many were taken by the troops from the rioters at any one time, was not known. It had been said by one person, that there was a depot of arms in a wood; but of this the evidence was not satisfactory. If so, however, that was the very place where he should wish the arms to remain, as it shewed so evidently the want of skill and combination of those who could ever think of depositing arms in such a place. One of the witnesses had imputed all the mischief to jacobinical emissaries, who had been at work every where through out the country; but the evidence of this person was of such a violent and contradictory nature, as to shew that no reliance whatever was to be placed on it. Another act of outrage which had been laid great stress on, was the burning of West Houghton mill, which was said to have been the work of a most alarming combination. But a number of the persons who were concerned in that affair were tried at Lancaster, and paid the forfeit of their lives; and what more could be wanted than that? What necessity did that exhibit for new laws?

A great deal had been said of the meeting on Dean Moor, on the night of the 19th of April, immediately previous to the burning of the mill; but of the 40 persons who were present on the moor, it appeared from the evidence of the colonel and adjutant of the Bolton Local Militia, that 10 were local militiamen, disguised with blackened faces, who described themselves as having passed two by two, before the general of the assembly, whose name was Hurst, and who, except the 10 militia-men, was the only person in disguise there. He could not but testify his dislike of this system of espionage. It appeared that one of these militia-men, in the effervescence of his zeal, endeavoured to instigate another person to burn the work-house, who immediately said, "If we burn the work-house, we shall burn a number of poor people who are in it." "O, the devil care for that," replied the militia-man, "let us only do all the mischief we possibly can. It appeared, therefore, that these misguided people had been frequently induced by such means to go greater lengths than they would other wise have thought of. Here were men employed as spies, abetting and inciting the multitude to daring and desperate acts of violence; and on account of these acts, the House was applied to for the purpose of arming the government with new laws, and investing them with extraordinary powers hitherto unknown to the constitution. He must object strongly to the proposed measure of searching for arms. The noble lord had had some experience in that way in Ireland, and we ought not to throw away all our experience with respect to Ireland. Though the noble lord applied for those extraordinary powers, with all that mildness, placidity, and softness, which he knew so well how to assume; the House would, he hoped, recollect that the noble lord had been intimately concerned in measures of a similar nature in Ireland: they should also consider, that there were other persons forming the government, who were concerned in those transactions. They would not forget that lord Camden was a member of the present administration; and that during his rule in Ireland, such dreadful scenes were exhibited, that the bare recollection of them agonized and revolted the minds of Englishmen. Was it not so? Could all this be so soon forgotten? Why were arms to be searched for? This was the very way to produce dissatisfaction in a country; as it would not only enable government to search for arms, but to disarm the whole country. The people whose arms were demanded might very well say, "We will not give up our arms, for if we did, the rioters would mark us out as having done so, and we should be unable to defend ourselves."—There were many in- stances in which persons, by having arms, had courageously and effectually defended themselves and their property, and saved both from ruin and devastation; and yet, by the proposed system, you would deprive those of arms who would use them in their own defence, and in support of the laws. The defence of Mr. Cartwright, at Lawton Mill, was of that nature, and there were other cases of a similar nature. It was too much for persons who had arms but would not use them, to call on the House to take them from those who were willing to use them. This was one of the most objectionable measures that could be resorted to. In Ireland it certainly had not produced all the advantageous effects which had been expected from it; and its execution there was attended with horrors from which the mind recoiled. Did the noble lord mean to say that houses might be entered by night as well as by day? When people were found to be so heated with terrors and apprehensions, as in the present case, calling out for short processes; and when in one place it was said the danger was not alarming, and in another they were demanding all the most rigorous measures of a despotic government, it was impossible to say what consequences such a power might not produce.

On these grounds he certainly should not vote for the Bill of the noble lord; although had the noble lord asked merely for a concurrent jurisdiction to the magistrates of different counties, he should have at once supported the proposition. He denied that there was any evidence of any funds whatever, being at the command of those people. It was ridiculous to suppose such a thing. It appeared on the contrary, that they were absolutely destitute of money, and had the utmost difficulty in contributing their miserable two-pences, and in some places ten-pences. For want of money the whole system at Manchester fell to the ground. One man, who turned informer, said he had been promised 30s. and had not received more than 14s. 10d. Another person who applied for 20s. was long refused it, till the treasurer, having received the strongest assurances of being reimbursed, at last gave 19s. keeping one shilling to himself. These were all Se funds which they had to foster discontent.

The revocation of the Orders in Council gave the greatest reason to suppose, that the evil would subside of itself. There was another reason to which the disturbances might be in a great measure attributed, namely, the high price of provisions. When there was a great population, not absolutely starving, but greatly straitened for food, it was impossible to expect they would be in the same contented state as in better times. All the persons who had been called to give evidence concurred in stating, that their hopes of the restoration of order depended mainly on a good harvest.

There was but one remedy for all these evils, which must unavoidably be borne, so long as peace could not be obtained. But peace ought by all means to be obtained if possible; for the country was going progressively into a state of things from which every thing was to be feared. The right honourable gentleman over against him must be aware of the truth of what he was stating, as he had predicted, that if peace was not made in time, we should be compelled to make it whether we would or not. Peace was the only remedy for our internal grievances, and the only remedy for our external grievances also. And, in his opinion, a more favourable occasion for a general peace never existed than we had at this time. It had been said, that the disturbances were occasioned by the instigation of our enemy, and that a correspondence had been carried on between the rioters and the prisoners of war. The noble lord knew very well there was no ground for this supposition. The number of prisoners in this country at present was certainly a very great evil: and even if peace could not be obtained, that evil might perhaps be remedied by an exchange of prisoners. But on this subject he would not take up the time of the House; as there would be other opportunities of expressing his sentiments; and he would therefore conclude with stating, that he was exceedingly glad he had watched the evidence given in the committee. The Report of the noble lord, though not expressed in the same language as a publication which he had seen, which certainly drew the most extravagant and unwarranted conclusions from the evidence, had an unquestionable tendency to excite the same unfounded alarms.

, alluding to the observations of the honourable gentleman who preceeded him, on the subject of peace, said, that if he could believe this was the best time to obtain a peace, he should most anxiously wish for that blessing. By suffering evils like the present to exist, however, without any adequate restraint, we should place the country in such a situation, that we should be unable to treat for peace on a proper and honourable footing, and to obtain such terms as would be consistent either with our security or with our honour. It was impossible for him, connected as he was with that part of the country which was the scene of disturbance, to contemplate the necessity for the provisions now proposed to be introduced, without feelings of a most painful nature. It was with great pain that he must consent to deviate from the common course of law in those districts. It appeared to him, however, that his Majesty's ministers had set about this business in the proper spirit, and that they had no disposition to out-run the necessity of the case. In his opinion the measures proposed did not exceed the necessity of the case. In spite of all the unpopularity which might attach to such a declaration, he would go the length even of saying, that if government had asked for larger powers, not for the purpose of carrying them at once into execution, but for the sake of, as it were, feeling their way cautiously according to the actual situation of the country, he, for one, would have had no hesitation in consenting to bestow such powers on them. His honourable friend (Mr. Whitbread) had observed, that the powers already conferred on the magistrates had not been executed. It was easy for members sitting at their ease in that House, to talk of the way in which laws might be carried into execution.

"He jests at scars who never felt a wound."

In his opinion it ought not to be rashly concluded that the magistrates were deficient in spirit, because they found the laws inadequate to the preservation of tranquillity. The magistrates said, they could obtain no information on oath against any individuals, and therefore could not execute the laws as they stood. The terrible measures which were resorted to, of assassination and burning of houses, indisposed every person to come forward to give evidence. His honourable friend had referred to the Irish rebellion, and said, that the mind of the noble lord was so full of the Irish rebellion, that he felt greater alarm than the circumstances warranted; and was perhaps, ready to run the same career here as was done in Ireland, in the measures taken to put down the rebellion there. He had been, however, informed by persons who had been in Ireland in those calamitous times, that there was an astonishing similarity between the measures pursued by the deluded persons in the disturbed districts, and the events which had taken place previous to the rebellion in that country. So far however from wishing the same measures to be resorted to, to put down the spirit of insurrection here, it was because he wished that there should never be a necessity for such measures, that he would rather that powers larger should be given at present. It was hard, indeed, to foresee what measures were likely to be resorted to when a country was reduced to a general scene of confusion and civil war,—when family was armed against family, and village against village; and when fear, the most cruel of all passions, generally operated on the minds of all, and prompted them to deeds of cruelty and bloodshed. He could not believe that the bulk of the magistracy of the country would ask or wish for larger powers, if they were not absolutely and indispensably necessary. The proposed measures did not originate in the fear of these womanish magistrates, as they had been represented; they were asked for by persons of the coolest heads, and the bravest hearts, but his Majesty's ministers were unwilling to resort to them till they appeared to be indispensable.

With regard to the source of the disorders, it was a subject of great delicacy, but he could not avoid saying something upon it. He could not agree with his hon. friend, the member for Bedford, that they proceeded from an interruption to commerce, or a scarcity of provisions.—He must state that the disease was, in his opinion, of a political nature. He would not quarrel with his hon. friend for the contrary opinion which he entertained; and his hon. friend would allow, that he concurred with him in wishing for a more thorough investigation into all the particulars of this subject. Alas! alas! He wished he could believe the disorders were owing to any such accidental and temporary causes. It was undoubtedly true, that the state of the country, from the high price of provisions and the want of employment, was such as to increase the discontents. Under such circumstances popular discontents would always thrive; they always grew up and flourished in a rank soil; but this disease arose from causes of a more deep and general nature. It arose from the pains taken, in certain mischievous publications industriously circulated, to alienate the affections of the people from the laws and government of the country, and to stir them up to measures injurious to the community, and miserable to themselves. But he would not enlarge on this subject: it was too gloomy to dwell on. Temporary discontents had been known formerly to take place from a disagreement about wages; but the House ought not to be deceived in the present case, and think it as insignificant. Was it not known that letters were sent to individuals, threatening assassination, and burning houses, and that these threats were but too often carried into execution? Was he to be told that all this was trifling? No! No! It must be a great and serious cause indeed, which could shew itself in such alarming effects; when grave, decent, and orderly persons could be so far misled, as under the forms and ceremonies of religion, to bring themselves to contemplate the commission of the most horrible and atrocious crimes without remorse. It shewed a diseased state of mind, which viewed every thing through a false medium, and which seemed to subvert all the ordinary moral feelings of our nature. No! they were certainly not going too far in entrusting the government with such powers. As to the searching for arms, he did not expect much effect from it. It was unnecessary for him to trouble the House longer on this subject, as it was generally agreed that it was the best and most humane way to intercept those evils in the beginning. The hon. gentleman had said, "Why did you not take up those people and hang them?" Now he, for his part, did not wish to hang them; but merely that they should be tried for misdemeanours, and that the administrators of the laws should be empowered to try them in this way. The greatest good he anticipated, was from the power given the magistrates of suddenly seizing persons assembled together, and subjecting them to a mild punishment, which might prevent the necessity of ever having recourse to a more severe one. There was nothing, in his opinion, in the measures, which could give the smallest reason to conclude, that parliament were actuated in any wise at present by passion; and they should therefore receive his support.

explained. He disclaimed having thrown any imputation on the magistrates. The hon. member for York- shire had said, it was easy for persons sitting at their ease in that House, to blame the conduct of others. That was not his affair. He hoped he should behave himself properly whenever he was placed in a situation where it was necessary; but at present his own conduct had nothing to do with the question; he had merely to contemplate the conduct of others.

could not avoid expressing the jealousy he always felt at any alteration of the old laws of the country. He thought that they had always, in the long run, been found the best for protecting the liberties and the peace of the country. The hon. gentleman who spoke last, appeared to him to be content to go to any length (even to the torture as practised in Ireland), if necessity should appear to require it. (Mr. Wilberforce signified dissent.) The hon. gentleman had certainly said, that he hoped the proposed measures would preclude the necessity of going to such lengths; and as he wished that something more than the present measures had been proposed, he did infer from this, that the hon. member for Yorkshire had been disposed to go the whole length of extorting confession by torture as in Ireland, if it should appear necessary. It appeared to him, that if government provoked the people to these disturbances, and turned a deaf ear to all their complaints for a long time, that they had not a right to recur to extraordinary measures of severity. He trusted that the noble lord would not wish to run the same career here as had been run in Ireland. He had with pleasure heard him disown having been a member of the Irish government at that time, and there was a gentleman (Mr. Finnerty) now in prison, for asserting that he was connected with that system of torture. If he understood those measures to be changing from a system of capital punishment to the punishment of misdemeanour only, then he should certainly approve of them, and be ready to adopt whatever might be necessary to carry them into effect. If, however, as he could not avoid fearing, by those enlarged powers magistrates would be able to construe a harmless meeting of a few individuals into an unlawful assembly, he could not forbear from expressing his disapprobation of powers which might be so misapplied. As to the power of taking arms from any man they thought proper, he knew no right to which a man was more entitled, by nature and by law, than to have arms to defend himself, his house, and family. The taking those from him might be in effect taking from him every thing that was dear to him in the world. The exercise of this power would naturally lead to eternal vexations. He could not believe the statement, that those disturbances were increasing, as every information he had been able to receive was directly the reverse. No act which could be passed would be able entirely to prevent disturbances which a few individuals might be disposed to commit. He was informed by a gentleman of great credibility, who came from the neighbourhood of Houghton Mills, that the account of that case had been very much exaggerated. This gentleman he had recommended to go before the committee; but they refused to receive any evidence but what coincided with their own views. Of the forty persons who met on the moor, ten of whom were spies, twelve were afterwards convicted, a pretty considerable proportion. As to the executions at Lancaster, there were many at the recital of which he was shocked. Women executed for stealing potatoes; and children, as he might call those of sixteen years old. Executions of this nature appeared to him much more likely to produce disgust than any beneficial example. Indeed, if those cases had been laid before the Prince Regent, he had little doubt but that his humanity would have prompted him to extend his mercy to them, as he had done to many who had been convicted at Chester, where but two persons were executed. The hon. member for Yorkshire attributed those disturbances, not to the want of employment, or high price of provisions, but merely to political causes; and yet, when they recollected the evidence given before the Committee on the Orders in Council, stated the utmost degree of human misery to prevail among the poor manufacturers, there was no need to look to other causes to account for the disturbances. If the fact were examined, it would be seen that the first rage of those concerned in those disturbances, was against the machinery, which ignorant people considered as the great cause of their want of employment. If the disturbances were merely occasioned by seditious publications, what was to be the remedy? Would the hon. gentleman wish to stop the press, and put an end to all discussion upon those subjects on which the people were now discontented? If he did not go so far, why then be would not be going to what he himself considered the root of the evil. He really thought all the evidence before the committee was not only insufficient to ground new measures upon, but that it was hardly sufficient to render a debate necessary. A committee of secrecy had reported to them nothing more than what every body knew before; and what was to be found in all the newspapers. An hon. gentleman had conceived peace was the only cure for those disorders. Although he was fully sensible of the advantage of peace, it was not, however, certain, that that advantage was in our power. There was another measure, however, which certainly was in our power, and which, in his opinion, would be more efficacious, although it was one in the expediency of which, not many in that House would perhaps concur with him, he meant the great measure of reform. He should say nothing more on that subject at present, as he would probably have an opportunity before the end of the present session, of calling their attention regularly to it. He should reserve himself to speak more fully on the subject when the Bill should be before the House; but at present he must express his dissent to the measures proposed, both because he was convinced that the disturbances were not increasing as had been asserted, and because he was equally convinced, that the laws as they now stood, were perfectly adequate to the necessity.

in explanation, denied that any thing had ever fallen from him, from which it could be fairly inferred that he would support a system of torture such as had unfortunately taken place in Ireland. He certainly did not conceive that any necessity would justify such a system, and he had before expressed his disapprobation of it.

begged pardon for having misunderstood the hon. gentleman.

having been one of the committee, and having now heard from one hon. member, that the measures proposed were stronger than he could agree to, and from another, that they did not appear to him strong enough, felt himself bound to declare, that, in his opinion, the measures proposed were well calculated to meet the present case. If he had any doubt upon the subject, he felt more inclined to the opinion of his hon. friend (Mr. Wilberforce) than to that of the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Whitbread.) He said this from circumstances which had come within his knowledge extraneous to the Report itself, and not therefore exactly in evidence. He thought, however, that the Report proceeded on such principles, and that such facts had been clearly stated, as left his Majesty's ministers no option but to call upon parliament to adopt such measures as would be likely to be sufficient to meet the evil. He had himself been one of those members of the committee who had called for the introduction of evidence, which the committee resolved not to receive In calling for this evidence, it was by no means with a view to fortify his opinion upon the propriety of the measures now proposed; but if it had turned out on the examination of witnesses that the disturbances had had their origin in political causes, and not in the distresses of the times, then he should have thought with his hon. friend that stronger and more decisive measures ought to have been resorted to. The existence of great and enormous outrages by which the peace of whole districts had been disturbed, and the lives of their inhabitants endangered, was substantiated, but there had been no proof before the committee, of the causes to which they were to be attributed. He thought that the Report rather understated than overstated the facts which were in evidence. Indeed, he thought it was right that it should do so; and that, if there were any error in it, the error should be on the side of leniency. He approved of the measures which had been proposed, especially when coupled with the declaration, that if they should not be found to be sufficient, there would be no impediment thrown in the way of re-assembling parliament, to consider what farther measures should be resorted to. Something had been said about a wish on the part of the magistrates to be vested with great and extraordinary powers. Now he thought that it must be an extraordinary ambition indeed to long for being invested with powers, the exercise of which could hardly be gratifying to any human being. As to the imputation of negligence on the part of the magistracy, he must say, that we ought never to forget how much we were indebted to the respectable and gratuituous magistracy of this country, which afforded a greater protection to the liberty of the subject than was afforded by the magistracy of any other country. The hon. baronet had said, that if the root of all those evils lay in the press and free discussion, there could be no remedy but stopping the press and free discussion altogether. Now he had imagined that there was no principle upon which people were more perfectly agreed, than that it was often necessary to compromise, among evils, in order to produce the greatest good. The liberty of the press and of free discussion, should certainly be fostered and encouraged by every wise government, as the sources from which the greatest benefits to mankind flowed. But, at the same time, if they were pushed to an extreme by bad men, from wicked motives, the law had power to correct the evils which might be derived from this perversion of a principle from which the greatest good ought to be expected. As to the sympathy which might be felt by some, for the individuals who suffered for their conduct in the recent disturbances—if the attention were exclusively directed to the individual at the moment he was expiating his crime, and not at the time of his committing it, hard indeed must be the materials of his heart who would not allow the contemplation of such a wretch's sufferings to efface for a moment the recollection of his guilt; but the measures proposed were not for the purpose of punishing, but for the purpose of saving. It was to save the great mass of the community from the evils produced by those disturbances: it was to save even the great mass of the poor deluded people themselves, that those measures were proposed. He thought perhaps that it was an overstatement to speak of the rioters as a force regularly armed and disciplined. The evidence only proved, that arms had been stolen, and that men were seen drilling at nights. Now, although it was not proved, that the men so drilled were armed with the arms so stolen, yet there could be very little doubt, that in time those arms would come into their hands. It could hardly be supposed, that two such operations should be going on in precisely the same part of the country, and yet that it was never intended the arms, and the rioters should meet together. Upon the whole, he was prepared to approve of the measures which were proposed, and he expressed his hope that they would be found sufficient for the purpose.

contended that on the face of the information, there was sufficient evidence of the existence of a system of outrage under which no person or property was safe, and which, at least called for the grave consideration of parliament. With respect to the provisions of the Bill now proposed, it might be a matter of deliberation, whether the odium which the power of searching for arms must occasion, would be counterbalanced by any advantage that the possession of such a power would give to the magistrates. This and the other provisions of the Bill would be fit subjects for future discussion; but that some extension of authority was indispensable, he thought no one would deny.

wished to say a few words in reply to a few of the observations which had fallen from some hon. gentlemen in the course of the debate. And in the first place he would observe, on the regret expressed by his hon. friend, the member for Yorkshire, that more extensive evidence had not been entered into in the committee. The fact was, that the evidence of the persons whom it had been proposed to examine, was as completely before the committee, as if those persons had been actually examined. Undoubtedly, had government thought that the result of any parole evidence would have been to shew parliament the necessity of granting a larger and more operative authority than that proposed by the Bill for which he had had the honour to move, it would have been their duty to call for the assistance of such evidence: but this was not the case. He had endeavoured to shew the committee that by no evidence could it be established, that the existing mischiefs were as great and comprehensive as those which existed a few years ago; and therefore, that it would be wise to treat the present case in a more indulgent manner than that to which he had just alluded. He confessed he never had listened to any speech in parliament, so unsuccessful in the endeavour, by trite and misplaced argument and illustration, to give to the proceedings, in which the necessity of the proposed measure originated, a character of insignificance, as that which had been uttered by the hon. gentleman opposite. His hon. friend, the member for Yorkshire, had sufficiently answered that part of the hon. gentleman's speech. But if the hon. gentleman had been unsuccessful in attempting to shew that the circumstances were not worthy the attention of parliament, he was still more unsuccessful in attempting to shew that the existing power of the magistrates was competent to the reduction of the disturbances, even if they were as serious as they had been represented to be. When the House reflected on all that had occurred during the last three months, in the disturbed districts, he thought they would require something of the hon. gentleman's nerves, before they could consent to dismiss the subject as unworthy their attention, and to allow matters to proceed uninterruptedly, notwithstanding the call made upon them by the magistracy for that additional power which was found to be indispensable to the restoration of tranquillity. His hon. friend, the member for Yorkshire, in his remarks on that provision of the proposed measure which went to give the magistrates the power of searching for arms, seemed to think that this power could not be exercised with such rapidity and surprise, as to effect the object desired. He admitted that to take arms by surprise (except indeed in some cases offensively, when they were actually in the hands of the disturbers of the public peace) could scarcely be expected; yet in his painful experience in another country, he knew, that although arms had not been collected by surprise, yet that in consequence of the legislative measures adopted in Ireland, not less than one hundred thousand had been withdrawn by the military and the magistrates from the hands of the insurgents. As he was speaking of Ireland, he must be allowed to say, that although he trusted the wisdom of the legislature, the activity of the magistrates, and the good sense of the people at large, would prevent this country from being brought into the situation in which Ireland once was, yet he should very much deceive the House, and very ungenerously compromise the character of those who had the superintendance of public affairs in Ireland at the period to which he had alluded, if he did not distinctly declare, that were this country to be involved in similar dangers, it would be impossible for the government and the magistrates to conduct themselves in a manner more creditable to their humanity, than the government and magistrates of Ireland had done. It was extremely easy for the hon. gentleman opposite, who knew nothing, by personal observation, of the difficulties and dangers attendant on the task of suppressing disturbances in a country, to hold such perils cheap; but those who had protected Ireland when she was threatened with civil destruction, better knew how to estimate them. The hon. gentleman's observations on lord Camden had been most ungenerous and most unjustifiable. The hon. gentleman might not approve of the measures of lord Camden's government; those measures were fairly open to his animadversion. But every one who knew any thing of the kind and benevolent heart of that nobleman must know that he would revolt from all unnecessary exercise of severity. An hon. baronet also had chosen to throw out an imputation upon the government of Ireland under lord Camden's viceroyalty, which, if true, ought to bring upon that government the detestation of all good men, and that was, that they had countenanced the practice of inflicting torture for the extraction of evidence. He could assure the House, that there had been no instance of torture ever known or authorised by the Irish government. It was true that during the disturbances in Ireland, when all other laws had ceased to exist, there was no resource for the security of the lives and property of the peaceable and loyal inhabitants, but the substitution of martial law. The necessity of martial law on that occasion had been sanctioned not only by the legislature of Ireland, but subsequently by that of the United Kingdom. The Bill by which martial law was proclaimed, certainly gave to the military a discretionary power of punishment. If, therefore, the hon. baronet meant by torture, the infliction (in the administration of martial law) of corporal punishment on any individual, or in other words the infliction of the same punishment that existed in the local militia, and in the army at large, he might be justified in the assertion. Certainly, during the continuance of martial law, the general officers in Ireland inflicted on the rebels the same punishment for their offences as they would have inflicted on their own soldiers. But as to extorting evidence by torture, no such act had taken place under the sanction of government. He did not say that no such act had occurred. In the midst of a rebellion, during which the whole system of society was deranged, he believed that such acts had occurred; but he solemnly denied that they had occurred under the sanction or with the knowledge of government. The hon. baronet had adverted to a recent trial for libel, in which he (lord C.) had been charged with the legal murder of one Orr, in 1797, who having been tried, and found guilty of the offence for which he was tried, had been executed by the order of the lord lieutenant, under the advice of the judge who tried him. On this ground he had been charged with being a legal murderer. That the occurrence alluded to did actually happen, was the fact; but it was also a fact, that it happened seven months before he was in office. This was certainly a pretty good alibi. But let it not be supposed that he was not perfectly prepared to share all the responsibility of lord Camden's government, and to consider it a personal honour that he had served under that nobleman in that government. He had merely stated the circumstances which he had just narrated to shew the facility with which such stories were invented and narrated. The person tried for the libel to which he had alluded, went, previously to his receiving judgment, to Ireland, for the express purpose of obtaining affidavits of the cruelty of the Irish government, and particularly of his (lord C.'s) individual cruelty. On his appearance in court, the reading of those affidavits was objected to by the judges. Two of them, however, had been previously read. The one related to a man who, it was alleged, had been sent to Botany Bay by an arbitrary act of his. Now it happened that he had two letters, the one from lord Bantry, the other from a captain of a fencible regiment both of whom sat on a court martial in the southern district, in which this man was sentenced, under the laws of that country at that time, to transportation; a sentence which he (lord C.) in the due discharge of what he conceived to be his duty, had ordered to be carried into effect. The other affidavit charged him with having been present at the corporal punishment of a man, and with having, on that occasion, uttered expressions, of which he trusted that those who knew him would believe him to be incapable. The fact was, that not only he had not witnessed that, punishment, but that he had never in his life, by any accident, witnessed such a punishment. So much for the accuracy of these affidavits. Such accusations proceeded from those who, when they failed in their plans of wickedness, resorted to the practice of villifying the individuals to whose exertions that failure was attributable. He certainly never expected to make his peace with that class of persons. Their hostility was the best testimony that he had performed his duty conscientiously, and he hoped he might say, firmly; and although he never expected to experience their approbation, nor indeed wished to do so, knowing that it would be given only if he did not deserve it, he trusted that he had lived long enough to convince those who knew him best, that there were no feelings of cruelty in his disposition; but that in the conduct which he had pursued amidst the difficult circumstances in which the disturbances in Ireland had placed the government of that country, he had been influenced solely by a wish, to protect the unoffending, and to restore general tranquillity.

stated, that it had come within his knowledge, that the sheriff of Tipperary had in the market place of a considerable town, picked out an obnoxious individual, and without trying him by any court-martial, had employed a drummer of the regiment to which he (the hon. member) belonged, to punish that individual more severely than he had ever known any man punished who had even been tried by a court martial. This happened before the rebellion. During the rebellion he saw, not now and then, but every day, men tied up and flogged, in order to make them confess. He did not say that this was done by order of government; all that he was aware of was the simple fact. In many of these cases the persons punished confessed; in others they did not. He remembered one instance, in which a man who had been first threatened was afterwards hanged, and his comrade threatened, flogged, and induced to confess.

, in explanation, obsered, that what he had said was, that he did believe such acts as those described by the hon. gentleman had occurred, but that he denied that they had occurred under the sanction and authority, or with the knowledge of the Irish government. As to the high sheriff of the county of Tipperary, two actions had been brought against him for his conduct, on both of which he had been convicted: and notwithstanding a subsequent act of indemnity, had suffered the imposition of very heavy fines.

said, atrocities similar to those which he had described as having taken place in Tipperary, had, in his knowledge, occurred in Clonmell long before the rebellion.

repeated his positive denial that such acts had received the sanction of the Irish government.

said, that never were more cruel oppressions committed in any country than had been committed in Ireland. He was not against giving magistrates additional powers to assist them in doing their duty; but he denied the accuracy of several of the statements of the noble lord respecting Ireland. He was just entering the doors of the house when he heard the noble lord say, that government had obtained possession of 100,000 arms in Ireland, from which an Englishman might suppose a hundred thousand stand of arms was meant. It was no such thing, however. Those arms were all pikes, and they were merely pikes of parade and shew, and made on purpose to surrender to the emissaries of government, when they came in search of them. As a proof, he would state that not 24 hours after those 100,000 arms were lodged in Dublin Castle, the rebellion broke out in Kildare, and every rebel had a pike in his hands: so that seizing the arms did not answer the purpose, though it gave people power to break open houses at all hours and perpetrate atrocities. The arms taken were mostly from loyal subjects. He acquitted the noble lord personally from the charge of torture; but he must have heard of it. Some smiths in Dublin were flogged in the castle-yard, by the hands of noble lords of the Irish House of Peers. He had himself seen a man picketted in a town in the county of Kilkenny till he fainted, and then left with a priest to extort confession; after two days he was picketted again, to make him confess the man's name who had administered the oath to him.

said the man was prosecuted in that case.

observed, that this was but one case of many.

explained the nature of the Irish indemnity.

regretted that the noble lord whose caution in debate was usually such as to prevent him from laying himself open to contradiction, had on that occasion, uttered things which would almost call upon those to speak in that House who never spoke before, and who, he was sorry to add, must reply to him by an unqualified contradiction of what he had asserted. He had listened with considerable distrust and apprehension to the first notice which was given respecting the introduction of new measures, the object of which might indeed be defended, but the consequences of which he feared might be of a very ambiguous nature. When, however, he heard the noble lord talk of the possible necessity of assembling parliament for the purpose of adopting yet stronger measures, and in addition to this, heard him deny the existence of torture in Ireland, during the unfortunate period of the rebellion, his alarm was not a little increased. To the fact of the practice of torture having prevailed, particularly in and near Dublin, at that time, be could pledge himself. It had been aserted that they were not authorised or approved by the government; he could however state from his own personal knowledge, that in 1798 atrocities the most cruel had been perpetrated in the very seat of the Irish government, under its eye, and within its hearing. He had seen the victims of these outrages paraded through the city, and exposed, for the purpose of adding indignity to torture, to the gaze of the metropolis. He wished, therefore, that those members who were ignorant of what had taken place in Ireland, should be on their guard before they committed the liberties of this country to the discretion or the mercies of that noble lord. He had himself, at a time when he was in a yeomanry corps, on one occasion seen a person high in rank bring drummers and triangles into the four courts hall to torture men to give evidence. He complained to his captain, who turned out that gentleman of high rank with his drummers. A servant of the lord mayor was punished several times in the guard-house, and shewn for days weltering in his blood. Dead bodies covered with blood, and lying on straw, used to be exhibited in the lower castle yard, Dublin. A French teacher at Clomwell, was flogged by order of Mr. Judkin Fitzgerald, the sheriff of the county, merely because he had two letters in his pocket which were written in French. It was melancholy to recall such recollections, and he wished they could be buried in oblivion. When that rebellion broke out, although no man had been more hostile to the government than himself, he cheerfully lent his support and exposed his person in its defence. It was his belief that lord Camden had disapproved of the proceedings of that day. He deemed it necessary to make these observations after what had been indirectly introduced into the debate. Upon the subject immediately before the House, enough had certainly been proved to demand the attention of parliament, not however to enact new laws, but to give full operation to those in existence. He viewed with jealousy any power of entering private houses; and the indecorous licence, so far as it regarded the female members of families, that was too often exercised in Ireland, strengthened his objections to any authority of this kind. After all, every evil under which the country was now labouring, might be traced to that fatal system of policy which had been maintained for the last twenty years. To alter that system, and recur to radically sound principles of government, was, in his estimation, the best means of allaying the discontents, by removing or alleviating the distresses of the people.

once more said, that he had never denied that torture had taken place, but that all he had asserted was, that it did not take place under the sanction of the Irish government. At the time to which the hon. gentleman alluded, the rebels were at Rathfarnham, a few miles from Dublin, which was in a state of complete confusion; and the Irish government was as little answerable for the disorders which then took place, as the government of this country was for the riots of 1780.

did not think that the Irish government was sufficiently justified by the declaration, that the enormities alluded to did not take place under their sanction. If he thought it possible that the present measure should be followed up by martial law, and martial law by such scenes as those which had been exhibited in Ireland, he vowed to God that he did not know any state of things which would induce him to concur in the first step of such a course of horror.

remarked, that an hon. gentleman opposite had adduced a number of facts to prove the cruelties which existed in Ireland during the late rebellion. Of one of those facts he happened to have personal knowledge, and the manner in which the hon. gentleman had described it, induced him to suspect that the other facts stated by the hon. gentleman might be as incorrectly detailed. The hon. gentleman had said, that the dead bodies of two men who had been tortured were exhibited in the lower castle yard weltering in blood. It chanced that he (Mr. C.) was on duty as a private volunteer at that place, and at that time. It was certainly true that two dead bodies were so exhibited; but the hon. gentleman had omitted to state, that they were the bodies of two rebel leaders who had been actually killed at Rathfarnham, in action with the King's troops, and being unknown, were exhibited in order to discover who they were. If other hon. gentlemen knew as much about the hon. gentleman's other facts as he happened to know about that individual fact, the probability was, that they would appear to be equally mis-stated.

, admitted that many horrid atrocities had been committed in Ireland during the rebellion; but ascribed their continuance to the conduct of the parliament rather than to that of the government of the country. He had himself been able to live in tranquillity during the whole period of the rebellion, without keeping a single musket in the house; and this circumstance certainly seemed to shew that unusual severity had not been called for. He had always disapproved of the Indemnity Act, but he wished to state that its author was not lord Kilwarden, but lord Norbury. Feeling that some measure was necessary, at the present moment, to strengthen the hands of the magistracy, he should support the motion of the noble lord.

, adverting to what had fallen from the Secretary of the Admiralty, re-asserted the truth of all his former allegations, and observed, that the hon. gentleman had better take care how he ventured to contradict any of his statements.

warmly animadverted on the style and manner which the hon. gentleman assumed, as completely unusual in that House, unparliamentary, and inconsistent with the freedom of debate. He had held out a threat of he knew not what; but which would not have the effect of intimidating either his noble or his hon. friend, or of preventing him from asserting facts which came within his knowledge. His hon. friend had not denied the statement of the hon. member; but having been himself an eye-witness, he had added those circumstances, which gave the whole case another complexion. He (Mr. R.) did not know whether he should regret the mention of the atrocities that had taken place in Ireland; but this he did know, that the recollection of these scenes inculcated the imperious necessity of guarding the tranquillity of this country by precautionary measures, and of preventing in time the recurrence of similar atrocities, which, however, were not without exam- ple in the history of England. At the close of the rebellion in Scotland, in 1745, there were acts of atrocity perpetrated, which could not be laid at the door of the government. As to the subject immediately before the House, he was convinced that, whatever share of the disorders in the disturbed districts was ascribable to temporary distress, there still lay at the bottom of them a lurking spirit of discontent, of disaffection to the government, and of revolutionary principles, which could not be too narrowly watched. An hon. baronet, in the declamatory style which was usual with him against all the constituted authorities and the administration of justice, had censured the execution of a female for stealing potatoes. The circumstances of aggravation which attended the case were these:—A farmer was bringing his potatoes to market at Manchester, but hearing on the road that the mob had seized the provisions already there, and were selling them at their own prices, he turned about his cart and made off, but was overtaken by this woman at the head of a mob. She took possession of his cart, and by an agreement between her and the mob, the whole of the potatoes were sold at what price they pleased. This was the offence, and it was too characteristic of the disorders and turbulence which prevailed. He was fully convinced that revolutionary principles were at the bottom of these disturbances, and that the temporary distress that was felt was only the pretext.

, in explanation, re-asserted the fact which he had previously stated, and at the same time declared, that in the expressions he had used, he meant nothing disrespectful to the hon. gentleman or the House. He disregarded the impotent indignation of the ex-secretary.

observed, that his hon. friend (Mr. Croker) had not contradicted the hon. gentleman, but had merely stated that the hon. gentleman had left out all those circumstances which shewed that the fact had no bearing on the case of illegal atrocities.

The motion was then put, and carried without a division.

then brought up his Bill, which was read a first time, and appointed for a second reading on Monday.

trusted the Bill would be printed by Monday, as he should take the sense of the House upon it.

obtained leave to bring in a Bill to repeal certain acts and amend other acts, relating to religious worship and assemblies, and persons teaching or preaching therein. He stated that, in consequence of certain decisions at the quarter sessions, doubts had arisen as to the question of qualifications. The object of the intended Bill was to place the Dissenters in the situation in which they practically stood previous to such decisions.

expressed his satisfaction at the introduction of such a measure, though it did not go the length to which he could wish it to extend.

The Bill was then brought in, read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday.