adverting to the present allowance made to officers of the navy, for the supply of their mess tables, observed, that the scantiness of this allow- ance was a very great hardship upon the officer, in course of whose duty it was to keep a regular table for the other officers on board his ship. Many complaints had been made upon this subject, and it was agreed on all hands that the present allowance was wholly inadequate to the purpose. It was therefore his intention to bring forward some proposition before the House upon this subject, unless it was taken up by the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. W. Dundas.) His intention was to propose that an, additional allowance should be made to the officers actually commanding, in the proportion of 10s. per diem to officers commanding 2d rates; 8s. per diem to officers commanding 3d rates; and 6s. per diem to officers commanding 4th, 5th, and 6th rates.

said, a measure somewhat of a similar nature was in contemplation, and would be proposed for, the consideration of the House. For himself, he should say that such a measure was absolutely necessary, and he should be happy to receive any suggestions, or meet any ideas of the hon. baronet upon the subject.

in bringing forward the Estimates of the Navy, was not aware that it was necessary for him to go at any length into the details, as they were framed in the usual manner. If there uppeared an excess over those of last year on the face of the present Estimates, it was to be remembered, that the number of our enemies had increased. Though he did not propose to enlarge on the subject, he wished it to be understood, that he had no objection to every item being examined and criticised. He then proceeded shortly to state the amount of the present Estimates, and explained the causes of their differing in some instances from those of last year. He concluded by moving, That the sum of 1,255,932l. be granted for the Ordinary of the Navy for the year 1813."

said, he rose to object to the grant of 1,000l. to the paymaster of marines, upon the same grounds that he objected to the salary to the paymaster of the forces, upon a former night, upon the discussion of the Army Estimates. But he chiefly grounded his objection upon a report of a former committee of that House, on sinecure offices, who had examined the right hon. George Rose, treasurer of the Navy, Mr. Smith, captain Barlow, and some others, who had given it as their decisive opinion, that this office was useless and wholly unnecessary, and ought to be abolished. Mr. Rose had stated that no inconvenience could arise to the public service, from the abolition of this office, as the business could be as well conducted, and with better security to the public, by the paymaster of the navy. He therefore moved, as an amendment, That this grant should be reduced by deducting the sum of 1,000l.

observed that the hon. member might have called the attention of the House to this subject at a more proper season; it was not for any committee to dictate laws to the House, and this office was found both expedient and necessary. As he understood a Bill stood for second reading this night, which contained a sweeping clause to abolish this, as well as many other offices, he thought the hon. gentleman might have waited the fate and fortune of that Bill before he brought forward the present motion.

never heard any thing less satisfactory than the statement of the right hon. gentleman, except it was the attempt at explanation which he had just made. The right hon. gentleman would place the House in this situation; they were either to wait the fate and fortune of a Bill which stood for discussion that night, or they were to forego the only legitimate means they had of abolishing an office which had been declared useless and unnecessary. The right hon. gentleman seemed to express himself with exultation, and could scarcely conceal his joy at the expected defeat of this Bill, which one of the ministers of the crown had intimated his intention of opposing, and the right hon. gentleman, who was well known to be an enemy to all such Bills, seemed to hope, that the fate of this Bill would be like that of a similar Bill in the House of Lords last year. It was now not less than four years since they had waited for the abolition of this place, and still it was introduced in the estimates every session. He hoped, therefore, his hon. friend would take the sense of the Committee upon it, for if the salary was once withdrawn, the office would fall to the ground, and this of all others was the most legitimate mode of proceeding for that purpose. But the right hon. gentleman vauntingly said, he had no trick, no evasion, he was not prac- tised in legerdemain, and yet he never met any one who could shuffle the cups and balls with much greater dexterity, "here we are, all's fair, all above board, no trick, no evasion," and yet he never heard a less satisfactory statement made to that House. The right hon. gentleman seemed to pay no regard to the report of a committee of that House, when some of the oldest stagers at the Admiralty gave it as their decisive opinion, that no inconvenience whatever could arise to the public service by abolishing this office. The office itself had been brought under the cognizance of the House, and was allowed to come under the denomination of a complete sinecure. The House was now called upon not to vote this sum of money, but the right hon. gentleman refused, because there was a sweeping clause (as he termed it) in the Bill for discussion that night (which he hoped would not pass), which puts an end to all sinecure offices. He trusted upon these grounds the House would not vote that sum; to do so would be a scandalous mockery of public economy, and a shameful waste of the public money.

contended for the absolute necessity and great utility of this office, which could only be abolished upon two grounds; first, that of economy, and next, that of public security. It was admitted on all hands, that there must be a person to receive and make the disbursements of this department, through whose hands a very large sum of money must pass. If this office was to be abolished the duties must be transferred to the Navy-office; and the first object would be to appoint an additional accountant, with a salary of 750l. per annum. There could, therefore, be no great saving in point of economy, and the money being deposited in the same way with that of the Navy-office, there could be no great risk to the public. The great difficulty and inconvenience was found in endeavouring to unite this office with that of the paymaster of the navy. The sums paid, sometimes on board, and sometimes on shore, made it a matter of great difficulty; and it was almost impossible to unite the offices for this reason. He, therefore, trusted the Committee would not agree to this amendment, upon such grounds.

The Committee then divided;

then went through all the different items in the estimates, objecting to each as he went along. A thousand pounds here and a thousand pounds there appeared to be nothing, but it was the accumulation of all these different thousands that was the serious evil of which the House and the country had to complain. A salary of 500l;. a year to a librarian to the Admiralty, he thought, was an uncalled for and unnecessary expence, from which no real advantage could arise. He objected also to the large sums thrown away at Chatham; and also to the profusion of money squandered on the erections for the breakwater, which could never do any good. He begged to enforce on government the prosecution of the intended new dock at Northfleet, as infinitely more advantageous to the country than either the docks at Sheerness or at Chatham.

entered into a minute detail and vindication of the different articles, objected to by the gallant admiral, and took a comprehensive view of the naval strength of the country. That a librarian for the Admiralty was not so unnecessary as the gallant admiral seemed at first to suppose, he hoped he would be ready to admit, when informed, that the hydrographical library of the late Mr. Dalrymple had been purchased by the Admiralty; that they possessed upwards of 4,000 volumes of the best hydrographical and geographical books; that it bad been thought expedient that this subject should be attended to, and that there should no longer be suffered that lamentable want of information on this important subject which had so long existed. The librarian had shewn great skill and ability in the execution of his office, and the salary allowed was far from being too much, on the contrary it was greatly short of his merits. He hoped government would have credit with the House for their exertions, when he stated that there were 38 line of battle ships now building in the King's yards, and not one line of battle ship in the merchants' yards. This mode of conduct they had adopted from their predecessors in office, and nothing but absolute necessity should induce them to depart from it. The King's yards were not equal to the support of our navy, small craft and all; and therefore, in order most effectually to consult the glory of the country, by keeping up our navy, the plan of government had been to build all the larger ships in the King's yards, and the smaller ships in the merchants' yards. He was happy to inform the House that there were now building fifty frigates, every one of which he had the expectation of seeing afloat, and in the way of being useful to the country before the end of autumn; some of them even in the course of the month of April next. Neither, however, had the government been unattentive to economy. Having a quantity of plank on hand, they had sold it at the rate of 12l. a load, to the persons with whom they had contracted for building their vessels, thus giving their own materials, and leaving only the work to those with whom the contracts had been made. The great increase of the naval force of our enemy, with the stinted means which he possessed, was indeed wonderful, and such as called for great exertions on our part to preserve our usual naval superiority. Every post announced to us the building of another and another vessel in almost every port. All our energies at sea, however, we needed not fear, would soon be exerted to produce something like Trafalgar, St. Vincent, or the Nile, to bring them back to their former state of comparative weakness. He was sensible that since the commencement of the French war, we had not had so formidable an enemy to cope with as we had at this moment. If the enemy went on increasing his means, we must do so too; and we must not forget that our navy must be the first object of our anxiety, as it was of our security; being assured that the country would not sanction the idea of its standing still while the navy of our enemy was increasing. The hon. gentleman went on to state, that the improvement of Northfleet was at present under consideration; but no expence which could possibly be saved was deemed expedient at a moment like the present. As to the yard at Chatham, though it was inconvenient for refits, or for laying up in ordinary, it was the best yard of, all for the construction of Vessels, or for large repair.

in explanation, contended, that in the King's yard, the construction of small and large vessels should be united, as it would lead to a proper application, and a great saving of the several sorts of timber.

, in explanation, said, that in the present urgent circumstances of augmenting and preserving our navy, no means ought to be neglected; and therefore justified the building of vessels at Bombay.

was obliged to the hon. gentleman for having gone so much more into detail, than the right hon. gentleman who opened the business, had thought it necessary to do. He begged however, to ask for information on one point, as to which the hon. gentleman had not spoken; he meant as to the construction of our vessels in point of durability. He particularly alluded to the Queen Charlotte, as to which it was reported, that while she had only gone from one port to another, and before she had at all proceeded on any hostile object, it had been found necessary either to take her in pieces, or to expend a large sum indeed in repairing her He wished to be informed on this head, and also whether any precautions had been adopted to prevent the recurrence of such things in future. He begged strongly to recommend to the consideration of government a suggestion of the late lord Melville as to the propriety of building ships in the East Indies of teak wood, and every vessel so built should bring home, aboard of her, wood sufficient to build another vessel.

stated, that an improvement had been suggested as to the strengthening of vessels, by Mr. Sippens, master shipwright at Chatham, namely, that of extending carpentering to ship-building, which, after trial, had been found to be of the most beneficial nature. The Ramilies, the Tremendous, and another vessel had had a trial of the beneficial effects of this improvement made upon them, and had come out of it most triumphantly. So excellent was this plan found to be, that one of those ships on which it had been tried, was now believed to be the strongest vessel in the navy, although the repairs or rather the alterations had been made with what was called off fall timber. Another ingenious gentleman, of the name of Corry, had suggested an improvement in the mode of fastening vessels; and the board had ordered a vessel to be fastened in the mode suggested by Mr. Corry, in order to give a fair trial to his suggestion. All the plans that had been suggested to the board had received a patient and full trial, and much benefit was expected to result from giving what appeared good in theory, a trial in practice. As to the question put by the hon. gentleman in regard to the Queen Charlotte, it was no doubt true, that that vessel had required a very large repair. He was happy to say, however, that she was now ready to receive lord Keith's flag, and to proceed to sea, with credit, he trusted, to those on board of her. At present they were only in the dawn of science of this kind. Mr. Sippens was of opinion that the plan suggested by him would have the effect of preventing the recurrence of such misfortunes as that which had attended the Queen Charlotte. There were a number of scientific men in town, whom government had been in the use of consulting, particularly sir H. Davy, from whose suggestions many other valuable improvements might naturally be expected. He was happy to think that the evil, said to arise from the dry rot, had been much exaggerated; but, if it could afford us any satisfaction to know that our enemy's ships were in a much worse situation from the same cause, that was a satisfaction which he could assure the House they might enjoy. The Rivoli, after she had been only twelve hours out of port, being then a new vessel, was fallen in with in the Adriatic by captain Talbot, in the Victorious, and was captured. Captain Talbot sent a lieutenant and part of his crew on board, who rigged her with jury masts, and brought her into port in a tempest, which the Victorious herself could hardly weather; but when she was brought into port, though she was only a few days old, she afforded symptoms of the disease to which he had before alluded, to such an extent, as made it necessary to take her almost entirely to pieces. She was now, however, nearly ready for sea, and he hoped would not be long, in her turn, of capturing another ship of the enemy, and as she herself had been, of bringing it into a British port.

said, that the dry rot might be avoided, by building the ships under cover.

pointed out the expediency of losing no time in forming the docks of Northfleet. He also suggested the propriety of building our ships upon some plan by which their duration might be ensured. The ships built one hundred years ago, were even now in a state of soundness, while those built in modern times were often unfit for service at the end of twelve or fourteen years.

said, that one of the great causes of the bad state of our ships was the use of timber which had not been properly seasoned. He objected to the confined state of our dock-yards, and said that the timber was piled like the pyramids of Egypt, instead of being allowed to have the full benefit of the wind and weather. Our largest dock-yard at Portsmouth did not contain more than 80 acres, while that intended to be formed at North fleet would cover an extent of 1,500 acres. Here there would be room properly to season the timber, and this he considered a cogent reason for proceeding with that work with all possible expedition.

was happy to announce to the House, that, for the first time, a supply of timber adequate to three years' consumption in the navy, had been laid in during the present year.

congratulated the country upon this circumstance, and hoped the House would no longer have to complain of the decrepitude of our ships of war.

, on the next resolution, wished to know then why so large a sum was required for the pay of navy admirals, so much greater than it had been in any former year.

, in reply, admitted the sum to be greater than in any former estimate; but it was to be recollected that a greater promotion had taken place within the last year than usual of captains to the rank of admirals. When the services of this very meritorious class of men were considered, this promotion could not be complained of, which, in the ordinary course, must necessarily be so very slow.

On the Resolution including provision for prisoners of war, Mr. Whitbread wished to know from the noble lord if any negociation for an exchange of prisoners, as was commonly reported, had been proposed by the enemy, and if so, on what grounds the proposition had been rejected?

admitted that a proposition of this description had been made, but not on such terms as this country could accede to.

thought that almost any terms ought to be acceded to, in order to remedy the present inconvenience. Without looking to our own prisoners in France, the number of French prisoners here at present, not less than 60,000, was of the most serious consideration.

deprecated the idea of accepting any terms, however humiliating. Such a wish was the sure way to lead to disgraceful terms. Every effort had been made to obtain fair terms, but without success.

in explanation, pointed out an instance in which a certain description of French prisoners taken by us, had been improperly detained.

declared that this government had never shewn any disposition to refuse reasonable terms.

wished to know from the noble lord if this proposition of negociation had been rejected, as was vulgarly reported, by the interference of any foreign minister. He thought it proper, at any rate, that the correspondence should be laid before the House, and gave notice that if the noble lord was not inclined to do so, he should move, on a future day, for the whole of that correspondence.

thought it would be time enough to explain when the hon. gentleman brought forward his motion.

The Resolutions having been severally agreed to, the House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be brought up on Monday.

adverting to an article that had appeared in the newpapers of today, purporting to be a Manifesto of the king of France, wished to know from the noble lord if this Proclamation had the sanction of our government. If so, he was afraid that peace was removed to a still greater distance than before.

disavowed any knowledge or sanction of the production alluded to.