begged, before the House proceeded to the great business of the evening, that he might be permitted to say a few words. He had, during a recent discussion, read to the House a paper which had been given to him in the way he then stated; and he had at that time declared, that if he should find an. imposition had been practised upon him (as was suggested by several hon. gentlemen), he would as freely acknowledge it as he had freely communicated the contents of the paper to the House. He certainly did now understand that that paper had been pronounced by very high authority, in the most dignified and temperate manner, to be a fabrication, containing nothing but falshood, and that by the same authority great weakness and credulity had been attributed to the person who could, for a moment, believe in its authenticity. For his part, he had no other reason for believing in the authenticity of the document in question, than that which he had communicated to the House the other night. But as a disclaimer had that evening been made from a quarter, and in a place to which it would not be regular in him more particularly to allude, he should feel it to be but justice to apprise the witness of the contents of the paper, in order to give that lady the opportunity of adding her disclaimer to that of the lords commissioners. If she should also disclaim it, the matter would be complete, and it would be only for him, on a future occasion, to acknowledge the error into which he bad been betrayed. But until by such reference to the witness he should be convinced that he had been maliciously and wickedly imposed upon, he must beg leave to suspend his recognition of any imposture. The paper itself he had neither bought nor sought. He had not received it from the Princess of Wales, or any one connected with her Royal Highness. He had not received it from any official quarter, from any one connected with office, or from any one in political or public life. But he had received it from such a quarter, that if it should turn out to be an imposition—in which case he repeated that he would most readily acknowledge it to be so—he was certain that the person by whom it was put into his hands had been as much imposed upon as himself. In the meanwhile, however, he must suspend any acknowledgment that it was an imposition. On the day after to-morrow, unless an hon. gentleman (Mr. Cochrane Johnstone) should withdraw his motion, an opportunity would unfortunately be afforded him of stating the result of the reference which he thought it his duty to make. If however the hon. gentleman should withdraw his motion, he would avail himself of some other occasion to deliver his sentiments on the subject.

said, that such a paper should not have been brought forward until the hon. member was sure that it was authenticated.

said, that when he produced the paper in question, he had no doubt that it was authentic. The noble lord should have considered that there was some difference between a paper being authentic, and being authenticated.

said, that when the paper was produced, the hon. gentleman had declared that he believed it to be authentic.

said, that he had produced it for the purpose of showing, that if the questions which had been put were added to the deposition, the effect of it would be altered.

remarked, that in such cases of investigation, it was not the practice to put down the questions. No minutes of questions to Mrs. Lisle, in the course of her evidence, were taken; but her answers were written down, and were then all read over to her: after which she signed the deposition. He was sorry to be obliged to differ from his hon. friend; but he must ask him, what doubt he could have upon his mind on the subject of the fabrication, unless he meant to go the length of supposing that the four lords commissioners had any view of entrapping Mrs. Lisle? After the full assertion of the Commissioners, that the evidence of Mrs. Lisle was taken as correctly, in point of form, as the nature of the proceedings admitted of, he was surprised to find his hon. friend think that there was even a possible accuracy in the paper he had produced the other night. A gentleman, he had said, had given it to him, one on whose honour and veracity he relied: but even that was hardly a sufficient inducement for the strong observations he had made. But, then, there was the strong declaration of the Commissioners! In what a situation must any man be, in such a trust, if liable to such corrections. The honour and character of the Lord High Chancellor, the Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench, of the Secretary of State, of the First Lord of the Treasury, were all called in question, merely upon the after-recollections of Mrs. Lisle. He believed Mrs. Lisle to be a most respectable woman; he had seen her, and was acquainted with her connections: but nothing should induce him to take the after-recollection of any person against what was sworn to, and signed before a court of justice. All this, on the part of his hon. friend, was nothing more than a mistake. The best of men were liable to be misled. Their judgments might be imposed upon, and he thought his hon. friend might as well give up the matter. He sincerely lamented the course his hon. friend had taken, and was surprised he should postpone for a single day an acknowledgment of the error into which he had been betrayed.

was sorry that he had fallen under the censure of his right hon. Friend; but the line of conduct which he was pursuing, he had not adopted until after mature consideration, and from it he would not depart. He would send the paper in question to Mrs. Lisle, and obtain her avowal or disavowal of its authenticity. With respect to the usage of stating the questions as well as the answers in examinations, if he had been misled on that subject, he had been misled by the examinations which had taken place in that House during the proceedings on the Tenth Report. The questions asked during these examinations had been written down, as well as the answers to the witnesses. It did appear to him extraordinary that, during so long a period as that which had elapsed since Wednesday (the day of his motion) no communication had been made to him by any of the noble lords; nor had any thing been said on the subject in another place until that evening. He repeated that, until he had done that which he had just declared it to be his intention to do, he should feel himself to blame in allowing that to be an imposition which had not proved to be so.

thought that the hon. gentleman might have known that it never was the custom to take down the questions put to a witness. If, however, there was a departure from the general custom, and if, at Mrs. Lisle's examination, the questions were taken down, the paper which the hon. gentleman had produced must have come either from Mrs. Lisle, or some one of the four Commissioners, for there had not been any other person present. It had not come from any of the four lords; it must, therefore, have come from Mrs. Lisle, if it was authentic. At best, then, it could only have been made out from the recollection of witness and it was really most extraordinary that an hon. member should produce a paper, and say that he believed it to be authentic, when the only reason which could induce him to think so, was the supposition that it had been made out from recollection, and the assumption that his friend would not give him a paper that was a forgery.

declared, that what had been said by the right hon. gentleman, would not change his intentions. He had purposely abstained from making any communication on the subject to Mrs. Lisle, until the attack with which he had been threatened, in another place, had been made. He was now told that it was a fabrication. For his own part, he did not yet feel himself ready to say this.

rose and observed, that the Charter of the East India Company being on the eve of expiring, it fell to the lot of parliament, under the direction and recommendation of the crown, to take into consideration the best means by which our extensive territory in India might henceforward be governed. In introducing to the House a subject of such extraordinary magnitude and importance, it was impossible not to be struck with the singularity of the case, that it should devolve on the supreme power in Great Britain, at the present moment, to deliberate on what should be the future system of government, in a country so much exceeding in extent and population, the parent state. He was persuaded that the Committee would feel, that in addition to the political there was a great moral trust reposed in the British legislature on this occasion, and that it was incumbent on them to weigh well measures in which the interest and happiness of so large a portion of the human race were involved. It was an unexampled feature in the history of governments, that the prosperity and happiness of a number of human beings, three-fold that of the inhabitants of this country, should be confided to the wisdom of the legislature.

He had no difficulty in stating for himself, and for those with whom, he had the honour to act, that if they could persuade themselves that the arrangements which it was their intention to propose, would shake, the existing system in India, they would hesitate before they suggested away thing which might change a system which had unquestionably answered all the great purposes of government to a degree rarely to be found in any human institution, and more especially in one of no very remote antiquity. But he begged leave to say that his proposition would not only abstain from touching the principle of that system, but would render it more applicable to the circumstances of the times. It was a proposition that he was persuaded would conduce to the prosperity, not only of India and the empire, but to no branch of the general interest more than to that of the East India Company themselves in their commercial capacity. His Majesty's ministers had riot been blind to the excellence of the institutions of the East India Company, institutions which they were most anxious should not be dissolved. The Company had raised up an empire unexampled in the world, and the government of that empire had been administered on principles eminently conducive to the happiness of the numerous individuals living under it. It was a government founded on theory so wise, and brought to such practical perfection, that he did not believe the history of the world could exhibit its equal. It was a singular fact in the constitutional policy of India, that in the administration over fifty millions of persons, the number of civil servants empleyed by the Company did not exceed 1,600 individuals. Few European countries ever experienced so mild a government, or one more advantageous to the inhabitants. As far as he had an opportunity of judging, he declared that no public body whatever possessed servants of greater ability and higher character than the East India Company. It was almost impossible to point out a country in which an equitable system of government had been so long and so undeviatingly maintained, and in which so few acts of flagrant public delinquency had occurred. It did certainly happen, that from the liberality of their allowances, from the class of individuals out of which they were chosen, and from the wholesome discipline which they received in their official duties, that few governments could exhibit so many examples of efficient public servants abroad as the East India Company: and he should do injustice both to the individuals concerned, and to his own feelings, if he did not allow that the same remark was applicable to their servants at home. While his official duties more intimately connected him with India affairs, he had enjoyed frequent opportunities of judging of the habits of business, not only of the heads of departments, but of those by whom the Company were served in all their domestic branches; and his full conviction, founded on experience, was, that nobody could be better served, no affairs could be more ably and more efficiently managed than the affairs of the East India House.

This was his sincere feeling on the general subject; and he trusted, therefore, that it would not be thought probable that he would embrace any proposition calculated to subvert a system which, although it might be subject to the imperfection of all human plans, had happily tended to accomplish the great objects of its institution. If government, however, feel- ing the necessity of some alteration in this system, correspondent to the necessities of the times, had proposed that alteration during the existence of the charter, for such advice they would have been responsible, and it would have been incumbent on them to make out a strong case. But now ministers found themselves, at the expiration of the charter, free to. judge what would be most advantageous for the Company, for the public, at large, and for so large a portion of the human race, as that comprehended under the British government in India. They might judge erroneously: but this he would assure the Committee, that he required only to be convinced of that error to change his opinions and intentions on the subject. The question had not been taken up hastily: it had been maturely considered: and the conviction of his mind, and of the minds of his colleagues, was, that what they meant to propose to parliament was the most safe and expedient course which the legislature could pursue. But if it should appear that they were in the wrong—if greater lights should break in upon them—he was persuaded that every one of those with whom he had the honour to act, would be perfectly ready with himself to take another view of the whole transaction, and to adopt any other set of measures which might be proved to be more consonant to the real interest of all parties.

In looking at this great question, his Majesty's ministers had naturally to consider, whether the existing system of government of India should be allowed to continue precisely in its present state—whether an entire change should be effected in it—or, lastly, whether some middle course could not be adopted, satisfactory and advantageous to all parties? With respect to the first proposition, be had the strongest impression on his mind, that with reference to the interests of the empire at large, to the peculiar interests of India, and to the commercial interests of the East India Company themselves, the present system in all its parts could not be safely persevered in by the legislature. Charged as the East India Company were with such mighty interests, he was sure the Committee would feel that the terms of the renewal of their charter ought not to come too frequently under the consideration of parliament. No arrangement therefore should be made for a period less than 20 years. He could see no reason, however, why the legislature should for such a period tie up the commerce of the country from half the habitable globe, placing that half under the administration of the Company alone, and leaving it open to no other description of persons in the empire except foreigners of every description. This was a proposition so untenable that he was persuaded no adequate case would be made out in support of it.

The question must also be determined with a view not to the existing state of the Indian commerce, but to the state in which it might be before the subject could again come under the consideration of parliament. He was not prepared to deny that in the event of opening the trade much evil might not immediately arise. He certainly should look with apprehensions to the consequences of the first burst of commercial enterprise. But it was not on such apprehensions that parliament ought to legislate. It was in commerce as in war. As in the latter those who were foremost in the contest frequently laid down their lives for the good of their comrades, so in the former those who engaged in original commercial speculations, if they injured themselves, opened channels for other more prudent and more successful traders. If parliament ought to withhold their assent to any commercial measure lest rash speculators should suffer, scarcely any commercial regulation could be proposed, to which that assent should be given. Even under the existing system, hostile as it was to the private trade, it had rapidly increased. During the last 19 years the private trade had amounted to a third of the whole trade to India—the private trade being 33 millions, and the trade of the Company somewhat more than 100 millions. It was obvious on every commercial principle that the private commerce carried on in ships, the property of a different and conflicting interest must be subject to much inconvenience and unnecessary charge. He begged to be understood as considering the commercial sphere as too extended for the limited powers of a chartered company, as beyond their strength, and productive of much injury to the Company itself, and to the country at large, and as it was possible to give increased vigour and extension to that system, it became the duty of parliament not to consign the private trade to the controul of the shipping system of the Company.

Passing by, however, that part of the question, he would endeavour to apply himself to the developement of that view of it which was taken by his Majesty's ministers, without entering into those details, which there would be many future opportunities of discussing. While he stated the Resolutions on which it was proposed to legislate with respect to this great question, he felt persuaded that the Company ought not, with a view to their real interests, to desire a continuance of the present system; for while they received their exclusive privileges as a boon, it was also to be recollected that there was a trust included in it, in the discharge of which, they were bound to watch over the national interests, and to administer their own affairs with a reference to those general objects which were confided to them. He was prepared to contend that the Company had taken a burden on their shoulders beyond their power to administer, with justice to their own interests and to the public, and that the evil arising from a want of capital, compelled them to withdraw themselves from those separate branches of commerce which it would be most beneficial to them to exercise, and to engage in other transactions under distinct circumstances of loss to the Company. To apply simply to the private trade as an illustration of what he had asserted, it had been carried on at a great loss to the Company, he believed to the amount of a million and a half, simply by providing tonnage at a great loss, which the individuals for whom this loss was incurred considered as very injurious to them, in consequence of the restrictions under which they enjoyed the advantage. For the merchants were obliged to give notice months before, they were obliged to go out of their way, and to wait the pleasure of government as to the periods of sailing, and on the whole, it was perfectly easy to understand, that the present system was highly injurious to them, as well as extremely erroneous to the directors.

But it was not in the private trade only that the Company felt the injurious consequences of the present system; for while they laboured to maintain on a liberal and extended principle all the interests committed to their charge, they did so at a great inconvenience to themselves and to the commercial interests of the Company; for they had to keep up the investments on an extended scale, and in consequence of the insufficiency of the capital stock, they were driven to the monied market of India, where loans could not be had at an interest less than ten per cent. They were also prevented from pushing their commerce with the empire of China, to which he was persuaded they might have access with more facility, and to a more extensive degree than any other powers. He was satisfied that at the period they were now entering upon, the field was too large for the exertion of the Company (great as their exertions had unquestionably been), and that they were unable to charge themselves with the commercial concerns of so vast an empire. Upon these grounds it appeared, therefore, highly expedient that the national capital of the country should be let in to the relief of the Company, acting on the principle of the regulations which took place in 1793, or the improved system which was adopted in 1802.

The other extreme alternative which was looked to, was one which he certainly should not be disposed to cherish until all other arrangements appeared impracticable; for he could not think that, after sifting the subject to the bottom, any individual interests could be so bound up in the perseverance in the present system as to prevent a cheerful and cordial acquiescence in such measures as should appear best adapted to promote the general good. If he could persuade himself that the interests of the Company and the country were incompatible, he felt that, in that case, it would be more manly and fair in his Majesty's government to state that to be the result of their deliberate judgment, which he had no hesitation in saying that nothing could justify, unless it appeared that the Company were disposed to abdicate the government of India, if the public seemed disinclined to such concessions as they might think right.

He knew that it had been stated, that there existed a constitutional bar to any other system than the present; and he was perfectly prepared to admit that the patronage of a great empire should not be transferred without the most ample guards. It would be such an evil as the public interest should not be exposed to without the most grave necessity, but if, unfortunately, the moment should arrive when it became unavoidable to transfer the patronage, he should meet the necessity on the admitted ground, that in any arrange- ment which might take place, government should be divested of the patronage. He hoped, however, that he might not be considered in any quarter as holding out a menace, or speaking insincerely when he said, that great as the difficulties were upon this point—grave as the necessity ought to be which would authorise such a change, yet he felt satisfied that if the legislature found that they could not work out their purpose, except through that course, it would appear on a nearer approach to the subject, that the difficulty-had been greatly over-estimated.

Having stated the two extremes of the question, he next proceeded to observe, that there was no plan which might not be liable to some objections, but when the subject was thoroughly sifted, it seemed impossible to maintain that the transactions of the Company should remain on the basis hitherto subsisting without an enlarged modification. The course would be to open his Resolutions as he went along, and in doing so, to advert to the leading objections which had been made by the opponents of a change in the present system. He was perfectly aware, at the same time, that there was a question in the back ground between his Majesty's government and those who were advocates for a more extended trade than it was proposed to allow, but this he should not now advert to. His first Resolution was a general one, and it stated, that the whole system of Indian government should be continued in its full force, with the exception of such modifications as would be brought forward in the subsequent Resolutions, and the House would perceive that the course of legislation which it was proposed to adopt, was to give a continuance of the charter, under a new arrangement, for the term of 20 years, subject to such regulations as might hereafter be adopted, without particularising any of them; for he hoped the Committee would be of opinion, that it was better, in this stage, to state general principles, than to enter into minute regulations, which would be the subject of future discussion.

The next Resolution applied itself to the question of trade, and upon this branch of the subject there were two large classes of opinion. Those who thought the trade of China should be opened, as well as that to India, would contend that there was an objection to the Resolution on each ground. The second branch of this Resolution would go to declare, that the restraint on the intercourse with China should continue to exist, and that the Company alone should have the privilege of importing teas; thus giving them a monopoly of the commercial intercourse with China, as well as that of the tea trade. On these points he would not argue at present, as they would be discussed at length hereafter; but he was prepared to contend, that the existing system of intercourse with China had answered so well, that, without the existence of a strong necessity, no other should be substituted, for, besides the advantages fairly derivable to the Company, from this source of commerce, in increasing the dividend, it might also be applicable as a joint fund to the reduction of the Company's debt, which must otherwise devolve on the public in some shape, and there was no form in which they might be so advantageously relieved. Upon these grounds he was prepared to contend, that this branch of commerce, as a measure of political prudence, and with reference to their own interest, was bound up with the public advantage, by continuing in its present channel.

This brought him to the consideration of the grounds of intercourse, and he should observe upon that, that it had not occurred to his Majesty's ministers, to except any part of the east but China, from the private traders, nor any importable article but tea—that was, that all other articles which were at present imported should be liable to importation. This commerce was proposed to be carried on in ships of a given size—to be confined to British ships, whose registered tonnage was not less than 350 tons—that was, generally speaking, to ships of 400 tons burthen. The next point was, that this external commerce was to be open to all the ports of the empire generally, but that instead of the homeward bound commerce being confined to the port of London, it should be opened to such ports as should give the greatest facility to the securing of the revenue, and which would be provided with warehouses and docks. He was not prepared in the first instance to name the ports to which the import trade should be extended, but he was of opinion that a survey should be instituted, and a decision formed upon it. The proceeding should be made with as much deliberation and responsibility as possible, and afterwards be made the subject of an order in council, which should be laid before parliament in the ensuing session. The next arrangement, and the only exception to the general principle of allowing all access to the outports, was piece goods, which should be still confined to the port of London, because he was sure there was no species of goods on which it was so difficult to set a value without some sort of auction, besides they were a conflicting article with the home manufacturers of the British empire; for if they should come illicitly into the market, and be sold at cheap prides, they might excite a competition dangerous to the goods of domestic manufacture. Those piece-goods, however, would be allowed to be sent to the out-ports for the purpose of re-exportation, which was in compliance with a revenue regulation already existing.

The noble lord next adverted to the consideration of smuggling and the revenue, and argued against the apprehensions entertained upon this subject—observing, at the same time, that it was a source of peculiar satisfaction that the interests of the Company could not suffer in this respect without awakening the fears of government, and deterring them from encountering any risk. On the question of revenue, he wished to state, that the whole amount was about 4,400,000.; of which sum 4,000,000l. was leviable on the article of tea alone, leaving no more than 3 or 400,000l. on all other articles imported from Indian and China. He was ready to admit that tea was an article liable to be smuggled, both on account of its small bulk and the high duty levied upon it. The reason of the high duty, however, he conceived to be, because it was an article that appeared capable of bearing the duty; but if the moment should arrive when smuggling would derive a facility from that circumstance, it might be expected that the duty would vary. It was argued that a great facility would exist of getting tea among the Indian islands; but though that fact was admitted, it was to be recollected that the regions of the Pacific Ocean were not the only places where that article might be procured; for that, before the war, it was procured in America, and had frequently been imported from Ostend, from France, from Sweden and other parts of the continent, by those who were disposed to encounter the risk: so that it did not appear, on the whole, that any additional risk would be incurred; while, at the same time, such regulations would be adopted as appeared to offer the greatest security against the apprehended evil.

The next question was the mode of taking the duties. This was at first thought to be a serious difficulty, affecting the revenue of the country, if the goods were not brought to the East India Company's sales, and the duties taken upon them in that manner. But, upon examining the book of rates, it was found that of the unrated articles a considerable number might be transferred to the rated duties. It appeared, also, that almost all the articles which were charged with ad valorem duties, were small in. number, and small in value, and that the whole amount of duties levied upon ad valorem articles did not exceed 40,000l. a year; so that in changing that to a duty upon the declared value by the importer, it was thought both by the Board of Excise, and Board of Customs, the country would not be exposed to a loss of more than five per cent. which upon 40,000l. a year was no great loss to the revenue. The other branch, and the most important one, was the rated duties, but almost all the great and bulky articles, such as cottons, sugars, and he believed indigo, were imported upon rated duties.

The next topic which he should advert to, not argue, was the objection that the opening of the trade would lead to an indiscriminate intercourse with the natives, which might in the end endanger the whole system, and the whole of our power in India. But in this apprehension he thought the India Company themselves could not be very much in earnest, as they had admitted of that middle course, which allowed the carrying out manufactures to India indiscriminately from the out-ports, only contending that the exports from India should be brought to the port Of London. As to the idea of colonization there, it seemed quite chimerical, as the price of labour was so low as to leave no inducement to the hard-working classes of the community to go out there; and with respect to the higher classes, who had objects of preferment and power in view, it was well known that no person could acquire any property in the country, that was not perfectly distinct from the soil, and independent of it. At the same time, that he thus argued on general principles, he did not mean to place an implicit reliance on them, unbacked by the authority of an efficient and vigilant government. Now, it was his intention to leave the India Company in full possession of all their authority to expel every individual whose con- duct or intentions they might find or suspect to be dangerous. With this restriction and controul he felt no apprehension on the subject of colonization; nor did he think the character of the people of this country so obnoxious, that they alone should be rigidly excluded from our empire in India, while not only the Americans but numberless Europeans and Asiatics Were allowed free and unrestrained access to that country, and while it was found that this intercourse was productive of no ill effects. Besides, the intercourse with India was at this moment as open as it was ever likely to be. In reality, any adventurer who was so disposed might go to India, by first going to the ports of the continent. The difficulty was not for any one to get to India, but the question which every rational man asked himself, before he set out, was, what would be his lot when he got there? It was this consideration, and this alone, which kept our intercourse with India within due bounds; and though this intercourse would no doubt be extended with the extent of our commerce, yet he did not believe it would ever be carried to a dangerous excess. For his own part he was convinced that it would be for the advantages of the moral habits of our countrymen, that our communication with the natives of India should be as much narrowed as possible.

It was said that it was a considerable advantage to the East India Company to have their remittances in their own hands, and that any other mode of transacting this part of their financial concerns would be unsatisfactory, and liable to various objections. Yet he could not conceive that the nature of the Company's government was so different from all others, that they could not transact their remittances by any hands but their own. If the government of this country, for instance, had a subsidy to make to any of our allies, it was not surely necessary that they should turn merchants in order to effect it. In whatever hands the commerce was placed, through whatever channels it flowed, the remittances might always be made through the commerce.

In viewing the subject in another light, as a question of profit, he did not think that the Company were commercially interested in retaining the exclusive possession of the India trade. If this part of the trade had been entirely in other bands for the last 20 years, without injuring their general and political prosperity, their af- fairs, as a trading Company, would have been in a much better state than they were at present. In the reports given in by the court of directors themselves, it appeared, that the excess of their profits on the whole of their trade above their expences, was six millions, within the period above-mentioned. Their profits on the India trade were two millions one hundred thousand pounds; while those on the China trade were 18 millions five hundred thousand pounds, So that the advantage on the side of the China trade was in the proportion of 18 to 2, or 9 to 1. But we were also to consider what were the capitals employed in these different trades. Now though the India trade was so infinitely less profitable than the other, there was more capital embarked in it. If, then, you charge the dividends and the interest of bonds equally on each, there will be the half of about 15 millions to be set against the profits of the India trade; that is, 7 millions and a half against little more than 2 millions, leaving a balance of nearly 4 millions and a half against the India trade. Such was the sacrifice of the commercial interests of the Company necessary to the carrying on of this trade. On the whole, and managed as it was by the Company, it had clearly been a losing concern, and to it had been sacrificed a great part of the advantages which were derived from the China trade. Such was the account of this trade for the last twenty years; and the inference to be drawn from it would surely apply much more strongly to the next twenty years, unless it was maintained that the trade itself could make no farther advances. If it were not in its own nature stationary, a period must necessarily arise in its progress, in which the Company's government would want capital, would want means and authority to carry it on. Fortunate as the establishment of the Company in its present form had been, prosperous as it had been in its growth and enlargement, yet there was a limit which it could not be allowed to exceed, without becoming unwieldy and unmanageable, subversive of itself, and detrimental to the country. If suffered to go on, it would grow up to a height in which the magnitude and complexity of interests contained in it could no longer be controlled by the court of directors, able and upright as they were; it would resemble a body without a head. The interest of the various proprietors and private tradesmen in this great city overawed and controuled the directors; they could not discharge their duty to themselves or to the country. It was, indeed, from the conflict and strength of men's personal interests that the harmony and good order of the whole resulted, but it was also necessary that these interests should be under the controul and guidance of some higher authority, of more enlarged and general principles of action. The noble lord then said that into whatever hands the conduct of the Company's affairs should fall, no good could be done without an efficient principle of economy and retrenchment of expence. On this head it was satisfactory to him to be able to state, that since the date of the papers which were laid on their table, the results of farther investigations into the Company's affairs were highly favourable. For the year 1811-12, the surplus profits had been originally stated at only 300,000l. It now appeared that there was in fact a surplus of 1,500,000l. And though the surplus for 1812-13, had only been positively stated at 5 or 600,000l. it was expected to exceed a million. He would only offer one word of advice on the subject of the Company's mode of keeping, their accounts. He thought it extremely desireable, that in future, the territorial and commercial accounts should be kept more distinct, so that it might be possible with a single glance of the eye to ascertain their relative amount.

With regard to the question, on what footing ships built in India should be considered, he wished them to be placed on the same footing as all other vessels, namely, that they should be manned according to the Navigation Act, with two thirds British sailors, but with the provision that this should extend only to times of peace. The Indian vessels would thus afford a nursery for British seamen, who might be immediately transferred to the more effectual service of their country in time of war, by then allowing a greater proportion of Lascars to navigate our vessels. He should also wish some provision to be made by which all persons bringing the natives of India from their own country should be bound to take proper care of them, and carry them safely back. Another regulation which he should propose as to the application of the funds of the Company, was, to enable them to grant pensions to their civil and military servants, which they were not at present authorised to do, except to a small amount. By a singular incongruity in the statutory enactments which regulated the proceedings of this great body, while they were enabled to grant sums of money to any amount, they were not allowed to grant a pension of 300l. per annum. This, therefore, would form the subject of another resolution.

The more he looked at this question, as to its general effects, and its particular details, the more he was persuaded that while the government of the continent of India remained in the hands of the Company, far from weakening those hands, it was, if that could by any means be effected, desirable to strengthen them. This led him to the consideration of an important part of the question—the command of the native army of India. Formerly the leaning of his opinion was, that it would be expedient to separate the command of this army from the Company, and to give it to the crown. This opinion arose probably from the weight which the sentiments of an illustrious connection of his, (marquis Cornwallis) had with him. That noble marquis had afterwards, however, been satisfied with some arrangement on the subject, without so great an alteration. There were high authorities on both sides of the question, and it seemed at first sight, an objection to the present state of this species of force, that so large a military body should be in other hands than those of the sovereign. But, after a mature consideration of the question, his colleagues and himself were of opinion that to separate the command of the army from the civil administration of India would be to sap the authority of that government. The army, if transferred to the crown, must remain in the condition of a local force, formed on no other principle than that of seniority, without reference to the rest of the military force of the empire. As, therefore, no material alteration could be made in this body if transferred to the crown, it would be a gratuitous sacrifice of the interests of the Company to take this force out of the controul of the local sovereign, and so long as the Company retained the government of India, it would be an anomaly to take from them the power of the sword, while they were permitted to hold the power of the law. There was another branch of the subject nearly connected with this, and which woald form the subject of a Resolution, on which he apprehended no difference of opinion. King's troops were sent to India, but in very uncertain numbers; and it must be obvious, that inconvenience must arise from this uncertainty, particularly as to the finances of the Company. There were times at which it had been advisable that there should be a force in India sufficient to meet the attacks of France when that power was making rapid strides towards universal sovereignty. But whenever the defence of India became necessary for the interests of the whole empire, it was unjust that the Company alone should defray the whole expence of it. What he should propose on this subject therefore was, that there should be a stated number of troops to form, as it were, the garrison of India, and that any additional troops which it might at any time be necessary to send there, should be paid by this country.

It was his wish that the Company should be upheld in India, and that all the acts of government should bear their name; but there were cases of great importance to this country, in which it was desirable that the Company should receive, and in which they were willing to receive, the advice of government. The other regulation which in his Resolutions he should have to propose, in addition to the existing ones, was, as to the different appointments to the presidencies. The crown has at present the virtual power of appointment, by the power of recal.—Whether or no, this power was originally designed to apply to cases of misbehaviour only, it was now applied to the extent which he had stated, and was a most invidious way of exercising the power of disapproval of appointments. The Resolution which he should propose on this subject, would leave the appointment of the members of the presidencies in the hands of the directors, but would render necessary the approbation of the crown under his Majesty's sign-manual.

Another Resolution which he should propose would be on the subject of religion. He was aware, that it was unwise to encroach on the subject of religion generally, and that this, under the circumstances of our government in India, was a most delicate question. But there was one regulation on the subject, necessary even for the sake of decency. The Company, entrusted with the supreme government in this as in other matters, had permitted the free exercise of religion at their settlements, but there was no sort of religious controul, and the members of the church of England could not receive the benefits of those parts of their religion to which the episcopalian functions were necessary; for example, the ceremony of confirmation. He hoped the House did not suppose that he was coming out with a great ecclesiastical establishment, for it could only amount to one bishop and three archdeacons, to superintend the chaplains of the different settlements. The Company, he hoped, would not think it an encroachment on their rights, that while British subjects were governed in India by British law, they should be permitted to exercise their national religion. There were two considerations of importance, one of a general, the other of a commercial nature, on which it might not, however, be necessary to propose any Resolutions. It was desirable, whatever the Resolutions of parliament at this time might be, to take care that no impediment should hinder the judgment of parliament from adopting in future such regulations as it might from time to time think expedient. The principle on which the trade with India was at present regulated, was that it should be carried on between that country and this; and it was a wise policy to endeavour to procure to this country the intermediate profits which resulted from the carrying trade between our eastern possessions and foreign nations. But a time might arrive, when the foreign traders, who would trade directly between the east and foreign nations, might only be to be met by British merchants, by a similar direct commerce, such as was permitted by the Act of Navigation in other branches of trade. At this time, when America and the other nations, which engaged formerly in the carrying trade, were crippled or unable from peculiar circumstances to embark in it, it was not wise to alter our present system of policy; hut when the stream turned another way, and it was only by conforming ourselves to a direct trade with foreign states, that we could compete with foreigners, it would be advisable to conform to it, and this not for the purpose of getting all the trade of the world into our own hands—(hear!) for he was one of those who thought that there was commerce enough for all nations of the earth, if they could engage in it in amity, but because he was unwilling to travel in a course so opposite to the natural course of things as to force British capital out of a line of commerce so peculiarly British.

Having gone through all the heads of the measures he had to propose, with as much rapidity as possible, he was sensible that he had left much unsaid, but he hoped hat the Committee would not receive any of his propositions the more unfavourably on account of the incompleteness of the statements with which they had been ushered in. He hoped the Committee would suffer the Resolutions to be read pro forma, and to be printed, and the consideration fixed for a day as near the present as was consistent with the magnitude of the question, and of the greatest importance it certainly was, whether the magnitude of the commerce, or the numbers of the population affected were considered. As his Majesty's ministers had not volunteered to bring this subject forward, but had been bound in duty to propound these arrangements, he hoped the House would receive their propositions with the greater indulgence. Though there were conflicting interests in the country, yet these interests had so many points of union, and so few of difference, he hoped that by some sacrifices of interest, and what were still greater sacrifices, by those of feeling, he hoped the British parliament, which had raised the empire to its present pitch of prosperity, would not be found insufficient to surmount this difficulty, in the overcoming of which the prosperity of the British empire in so high a degree depended. The noble lord then handed the following Resolutions to the chairman of the Committee, by whom they were read:

"That it is expedient that all the privileges, authorities, and immunities, granted to the United Company of Merchants trading to the East Indies, by virtue of any Act or Acts of Parliament now in force, and all rules, regulations, and clauses affecting the same, shall continue and be in force for the farther term of 20 years, except as far as the same may hereinafter be modified and repealed.

"That the existing restraints respecting the commercial intercourse with China, shall be continued, and that the exclusive trade in tea shall be preserved to the said Company during the period aforesaid.

3. "That subject to the provisions contained in the preceding Resolution, it shall be lawful for any of his Majesty's subjects to export any goods, wares, or merchandize, which can now or may hereafter be legally exported from any port in the United Kingdom to any port within the limits of the charter of the said Company; and that all ships navigated according to law, proceeding from any port within the limits of the Company's

charter, and being provided with regular manifests from the last port of clearance, shall respectively be permitted to import any goods, wares, and merchandize, the product and manufacture of any countries within the said limits, into any ports in the United Kingdom which may be provided with warehouses, together with wet docks or basins, or such other securities as shall, in the judgment of the Commissioners of the Treasury in Great Britain and Ireland respectively, be fit and proper for the deposit and safe custody of all such goods, wares, and merchandize, as well as for the collection of all duties payable thereon, and shall have been so declared by the orders of his Majesty in council in Great Britain, or by the order of the lord lieutenant in council in Ireland, provided always that copies of all such orders in council shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament in the session next ensuing.

"Provided also, that no ship or vessel of less than 350 tons registered measurement, shall be permitted to clear out from any port in the United Kingdom, for any port or place within the limits aforesaid, or be admitted to entry in any port of the United Kingdom from any place within those limits.

"Provided also, that no such ship which shall have so navigated, shall be admitted to entry in any port of the United Kingdom, without a regular manifest, duly certified, according to such regulations as may hereafter be enacted.

"Provided also, that no article manufactured of silk, hair, or wool, or any mixture thereof, shall be entered or taken out of any warehouses except for exportation, unless the same shall have been brought into the port of London, and deposited in the warehouses of the said United Company; and such articles shall by them be exposed to public sale by auction, in order to ascertain the duties payable thereon; and in all other parts, as well as the port of London, such articles, when entered, and taken out for exportation, shall be charged according to their value, under regulations legally applicable in other cases to duties payable ad valorem.

4. "That as long as the government of India shall be administered under the authority of the said Company according to the provisions, limitations, and regulations hereafter to be enacted, the rents, revenues, and profits arising from the territorial acquisitions in India, shall, after defraying the expences of collecting the same, with the several charges and stipulated payments to which the revenues are subject, he supplied, and disposed of according to the following, order of preference:—in the first place, in defraying all the charges and expences of raising and maintaining the forces, as well European as Native artillery and marines on the establishment in India, and of maintaining the forts and garrisons there, and providing warlike and naval stores.—2dly, In the payment of the interest accruing on the debts, owing, or which may hereafter be incurred by the said Company in India.—3dly, In defraying the civil and commercial establishments at the several settlements there.—4thly, That the whole or any part of the surplus that may remain of the above described rents, revenues, and profits, after providing for the several appropriations, and defraying the several charges before mentioned, shall be applied to the provision of the Company's investments in India, in remittances to China for the provision of investments there, or towards the liquidation of debts in India, or some such other purposes as the Court of Directors, with the approbation of the Board of Commissioners, shall from time to time direct.

5. "That the receipts into the Company's treasury in England, from the proceeds of the sales of their goods, and from the profits arising from private and privileged trade, or in any other manner, shall be applied and disposed of, as follows: First, in payment of bills of exchange already accepted by the Company, as the same shall become due. Secondly, for the current payment of debts, (the principal of the bond debt in England always excepted) as well as interest, and the commercial charges and expenses of the said Company.—Thirdly, in payment of a dividend of ten pounds per cent. on the present, or any future amount of the capital stock of the said Company: also, in the payment of a further dividend of ten shillings per cent. upon such capital stock, after the separate fund upon which the same was originally charged by the 124th clause of the 33d, cap. 52, shall have been exhausted, the said payments respectively to be made half-yearly. Fourthly, in the reduction of the principal of the debt in India, or of the bond debt at home, as the Court of Directors, with the approbation of the Board of Commissioners, shall from time to time direct.

0 6. "That when the principal of the debt bearing interest in India, shall have been reduced to the sum of ten millions of pounds sterling, calculated at the exchange of 2s. the Bengal current rupee; 8s. the Madras pagoda; and 2s. 3d. the Bombay rupee, and the bonded debt in England shall have been reduced to the sum of three millions of pounds sterling; then and thereafter, the surplus proceeds which shall be found to arise from the revenues of India, and the profits upon the trade, after providing for the payments aforesaid, shall be applied to the more speedy repayment of the capital of any public funds or securities which have been or may be created for the use of the said Company, the charges of which have been, or may be, directed to be borne by the said Company, in virtue of any act or acts of parliament; and that any farther surplus that may arise shall be set apart, and from time to time paid into the receipt of his Majesty's exchequer, to be applied as parliament shall direct, without any interest, to be paid to the Company, in respect or for the use thereof, but nevertheless to be considered and declared as an effectual security to the said Company, for the capital stock of the said Company, and for the dividend of 10½ per cent. per annum, in respect thereof, not exceeding the sum of twelve millions of pounds sterling, and that the excess of such payments, if any, beyond the said amount of twelve millions, one sixth part shall, from time to time, be reserved and retained by the said Company for their own use and benefit, and the remaining five-sixths shall be deemed and declared the property of the public, and at the disposal of parliament.

"Provided also, that if the Company's debts in India, after the same shall have been reduced to 10,000.000l. sterling, shall be again increased beyond that amount, or if their bond debt in England, after the same shall have been reduced to 3,000,000l. shall be again increased beyond that sum, then and so often as either of these cases shall happen, the surplus proceeds shall be appropriated to the reduction of such new debts respectively, until the debts of India shall be again reduced to 10,000,000l. sterling, and the bond debt in England to 3,000,000l. sterling.

7. "That it is expedient, that ships built within the British territories in the East Indies, and employed in the commerce between India and the United Kingdom, should, during the present war, and for 18 months after the conclusion thereof, be permitted to import any goods, wares, or merchandize, the produce or manufacture of any countries, within the limits of the East India Company's charter, except as aforesaid, or to export any goods, wares, or merchandize from this kingdom to the British settlements in the East Indies, or to any of the places within the said limits in the same manner as ships, British built, and duly registered as such, and that after the expiration of the period above-mentioned, the said India-built ships should be liable to such other provisions as parliament may from time to time enact, for the further increase and encouragement of shipping and navigation; and that effectual provision should be made, at the charge of the owners and commanders of such ships, for the maintenance, while in the United Kingdom, of the Asiatic sailors employed in the navigation thereof, and for the return of such sailors to their native country.

8. "That it is expedient to make provision for further limiting the granting of gratuities and pensions to officers, civil and military, or increasing the same, or treating any new establishments at home, in such manner as may effectually protect the funds of the said Company.

9. "That all vacancies happening in the office of governor general of Fort William, in Bengal, or of governor of either of the Company's presidencies or settlements of Fort St. George or Bombay, or of governor of the forts and garrisons of Fort William, Fort St. George or Bombay, or of commander in chief of the forces in India, shall continue to be filled up and supplied by the court of directors of the said united Company, subject, nevertheless, to the approbation of his Majesty, to be signified in writing under his royal sign manual, countersigned by the President of the Board of Commissioners for the affairs of India.

10 "That the number of his Majesty's troops in India to be in future maintained, by the said Company, be limited, and that an augmentation of force exceeding the number so limited, shall, unless employed at the express requisition of the said Company, be at the public charge.

11. "That it is expedient that the church establishment in the British territories in the East Indies should be placed under the superintendance of a bishop and three archdeacons, and that adequate provision should be made from the territorial revenues of India, for their maintenance."

deputy chairman of the East India Company, was bound in candour to admit the great liberality of manner with which the noble Secretary had treated both the servants of the Company in India, and the directors at home. This was particularly satisfactory, when a great change of system was proposed, as it shewed that there was no complaint of mismanagement, but a full approbation of their measures. He claimed the attention of the Committee from the vast importance of the subject before them. It concerned two empires; the happiness of 60 millions of persons in India, and of 13 millions in Great Britain. It had the sanction of sixteen acts of parliament under various sovereigns—had lasted for 213 years; and departed statesmen, who had great authority with different and adverse parties in that House, had all joined to support a monopoly of trade to the East India Company. When the hon. member recollected this, he could not believe that such a system would be set aside. He read several quotations from the departed statesmen alluded to, and said the spirits of the mighty dead gave a solemn warning to the House. The noble Secretary had treated this as a commercial question, but if it was so, it was also tenfold more a political one, and in this point of view he should take leave to consider it. The noble Secretary had intimated that the sovereignty of India was left with the directors, and that only a commercial change was to be effected. But what, he would ask, would the natives of India think of the sovereignty of the out-ports—Liverpool sovereigns—Bristol sovereigns, and sovereigns from the county of Cork? The Hindoos might not be ready to worship this new political Baal; quarrels and contentions would perhaps ensue in a country governed by opinion, and we might lose India by the dangerous experiment. He said the Company was not a political play-thing, that could be taken up and laid down at discretion. If we deranged its machinery, or gave it into many hands, it might be destroyed, never to be repaired again. He spoke of the dangers to be apprehended from an influx of adventurers into the Indian territories, and the colonization that would take place. The noble lord had not detailed the whole of his plan, and had failed to be exact and specific in naming the out ports, or number of out-ports that were to have the benefit, or as be should call it, the evil of this new monopoly, and who were to undertake the arduous task of changing the climate, the manners, the customs, the prejudices of the people in India, and of enriching the eastern world. With respect to the Petitions on the table of the House, some of them were from places which could derive no possible benefit from the extension of the India trade. There was one from a district of Scotland which could export nothing but horned cattle. He wished the petitioners had addressed themselves, in their petitions, more to the head and less to the passions. The Petition of the Kidderminster manufacturers complained of having suffered by the calamities of war, and prayed that if peace could not be restored, that at least the nuisance of the East India Company would be abolished. In the pamphlets and publications which he had seen on the subject, it was astonishing to see the manner in which the credulity of the country was attempted to be worked on. It was said, Would they allow foreigners to run away with the trade? He should be sorry that this should be the case: but it was very hard to the East India Company, that because the Americans had been so much favoured in a treaty in which the East India Company's interests were little consulted, the East India Company should now be sacrificed on that account. America carried on trade in her neutral character; and when the ports of other countries were shut to us, it was not easy to put a stop to that trade: but America had not exported any of our manufactures to India; and the example of that country could not be adduced as a proof, that the exports from this country to India could admit of any considerable increase. It was, in fact, impossible for the natives of India to be the consumers of our manufactures. How could one of their people, whose annual income amounted only to between four or five pounds, afford to purchase any of the costly manufactures of this country? With respect to colonization, he would affirm, that the influx of foreigners who might drive the trade to India would, if they met with a disappointment, endeavour to get into the vortex of the Indian courts. What remuneration were the gentlemen of the out-ports prepared to give, for the cruel sacrifices to which they wished to subject the Company? Before the commencement of the troubles of France, the universal cry in that country was "liberty and trade," and now their ports were completely shut to trade. That ought to be a lesson to them, how they listened to idle clamour. He thought, that if it was possible, without being intolerant and without risking the peace of the country, to introduce a purer religion among the natives of India, commercial habits were more likely to be introduced among them from that circumstance than in any other way. He wished the House to hesitate before they gave their sanction to the proposed innovation. Would they change experience for theory? The East India Company were of no party; they threw themselves on the country; and they trusted that every consideration would be given to the subject before any thing should be concluded upon.

differed in opinion with the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, whom he considered as the organ of the East India Company: he would not, however, enter into any discussion that night, but had no doubt, he should be able to shew at a proper time the futility of the arguments advanced by the hon. gentleman.

recommended that the House should take the proper course pointed out by the noble mover, suffer the Resolutions to be printed, and then come to the discussion upon them.

apprehended that the Resolutions might be in the hands of members by to-morrow evening or the following morning. With respect to evidence, it was a question whether they ought to have it or not. It was the opinion of many with whom he had conversed, that the time of the House ought not to be wasted with evidence. He had no reluctance to consent to the debate coming on in the latter end of the week instead of the beginning; but if evidence should be gone into, it could not be too soon.

contended that there were many persons in the country, capable of affording much information to the House with respect to India, and the consequences which would be produced by an extension of trade, and he should therefore move, at a proper time, that evidence be called to the bar.

said, it was not his intention to enter into any observations upon the question at present. The time of the House ought to be occupied with the statement of the noble lord, who had performed his task in a very able and satisfactory manner. The Resolutions ought to be a sufficient time in the hands of members to allow them to make up their minds before entering on any discussion. The hon. gentleman who spoke last, had anticipated, in some measure, what it was his intention to say. He wished for evidence on one or two points, on which he did not know where to turn for information at present. The speech of the noble lord had narrowed his attention to one or two points. The noble lord had stated the great advantage which had accrued to our Indian possessions, from the system of management which had been pursued for the last twenty years. In this eulogium he cordially agreed with the noble lord Although he had no doubt that many improvements might yet be made in the system of management, he had no hesitation in stating that it was highly creditable to the East India Company, and the board who had the superintendance of Indian affairs. Let gentlemen look back to the Reports on this subject in the time of Mr. Burke, and they would see that the great object was then to draw the attention of the House to the abuses in the government of India. But now there was no attempt made to state the existence of abuses in India. This was a point which ought not to be lost sight of; that the system by which India was governed, was one which was acknowledged to have contributed to the happiness of our subjects of that country. He stated this to shew the value of the object which was at stake. That from the mode on which India was governed, the people enjoyed happiness, was attested by every side of the House; and he was, therefore, unwilling to expose that happiness to any hazard. There were persons in this country at present, who could deliver an opinion on this subject from their personal experience; the evidence ought not to be span out; but proper persons might be examined, as to what, in their opinion, would be the result of an influx of persons of all descriptions into India. He knew the noble lord had said he had checks. But he could not see how that cool be called a free trade, when a native of Liverpool might be allowed to go to India, where he could not be subjected to his own government, but that of his competitors and rivals, who might send him home without assigning any reason for so doing. He wished to see what compensation was to be held out to induce him to agree to this alteration in the Indian system. The persons who were calling for an open trade, might be admitted to be good evidence with respect to the advantages of an open trade. He had not as yet seen any thing beyond assertion on the subject. His own opinion was that the exports would be increased by the extension to a very considerable degree; but he wanted to hear from the manufacturers what assurance they had upon this subject, as they were the persons who ought best to know where they sent their goods to. However, after the blunder they committed on South America, he was not disposed to place the greatest confidence in their opinion. If they were to hazard the safety of India, he wanted to see the evidence of the great gain for which this was to be done. For the question now narrowed itself to this point—having a great empire well governed, they were to put this empire to hazard for the sake of an increase of trade! Was it asking too much to wish to know where that trade was to come from? And if from the evidence it should appear, that this increase would be but trifling, it then became a question whether it was worth while to risk that empire for such a cause? The noble lord bad stated the revenue from the Indian trade to be 400,000l. Suppose that revenue doubled by the alteration—if persons of experience were to tell them that to come at this they might hazard the overthrow of their India empire, would any man say, that in such a case the increase of revenue ought to have any weight on their minds? All he wanted was, that before the House argued the question, they might have something to argue upon. It was not enough to say, Here is a country of such an extent, with such a population, and of course this population will be induced to take off a quantity of our manufactures. He recollected hearing of a person having sent out a most excellent assortment of mouse-traps to the Brazils. The person said he knew there were mice in the country, and as the traps were good, a sale was certain; but when the traps arrived the people would not use them; it seemed they had a prejudice against mouse-traps.—If they were to apply to the evidence immediately, it would be ready by Easter, and might be put into the hands of members before the Easter holidays. What they might lose in evidence they would save in speeches. He was desirous to have the opinion of such men as lord Teignmouth, lord Wellesley and Mr. Hastings on this question.

said, if any of the parties before the House wished for evidence, there could certainly be no objection to it. He knew not for his part, whether his constituents were disposed or prepared to bring forward evidence. He did not see that it was necessary for them to support the proposition of a free trade by evidence. What the right hon. gentleman had said with respect to absurd cargoes might be answered in this way—that having happened once, it was less likely to happen again. The manner in which the noble lord had opened the subject to the House, was as temperate and candid as possible; the interests of all parties seemed to have been weighed by him deeply, and balanced against each other. The first of the noble lord's Resolutions went to affirm the expediency of maintaining the government at present existing in India. That government had received the complete approbation of the House and of the country. But in reflecting on former periods, although the contrast was favourable to the present, they ought not to forget that to the discussions which formerly took place much of the good which now existed might be owing. He said he was as free to form an opinion on this subject, as if he represented the borough which he had given up. With respect to the China trade, admitting that the India Company was a fit instrument for the government of India, and that to carry on that government, it was necessary that they should be in possession of an adequate revenue, still the question was open for consideration, whether the best revenue was the assignment of the monopoly of a beneficial trade. If it could be proved that it was possible to carry on this trade more beneficially by others, he would say throw it open, and assign a proper revenue to the Company for carrying on their government from some other source. It was a question, however, whether the country was yet ripe for this trade. He thought it would be better not to bind up this trade during the whole term of the charter. Oft the whole, the Resolutions appeared to be framed with an anxious regard for the welfare of all parties, and he earnestly hoped they would be considered in the same spirit with which they had been offered, the whole terminating in a measure calculated to promote the prosperity of the country.

made a few remarks on the speech of the noble lord. He said, that the argument derived from the opening of the trade to the Americans was of no force; for this was an act of the British government, not of the India Company. The remedy, too, was easy. It was only to shut out the Americans. The noble lord apprehended no danger from colonization. But many, who had resided a long time in India, thought differently; for instance, lord Cornwallis and others. He did not like the scheme now proposed, which went to throw down the whole fabric of the India Company. He was also hostile to hurry, and wished that evidence should be heard on certain points; for instance, as to the probability of increasing the export of British manufactures for Indian consumption. It was certain that no new articles had been sent out to that country since the opening in 1793.

wished to know if the noble lord's intention was to restrain the ships licensed from this country from engaging in the coasting trade of India, as he apprehended ruin must ensue to the native traders if that were permitted?

thought it unlikely that any trade in which British ships could engage, should be productive of the ill effects which the hon. gentleman imagined must be inflicted on the Lascars and native traders. He agreed to the hearing of evidence, and expressed a hope, that it would not be pushed to an inconvenient extent. It was sincerely his wish so to shape his Resolutions, as to afford every facility for discussing the question in the clearest and most ample manner; and though there were reasons for not adopting the method, hinted at by a right hon. gentleman, he should be open to any suggestions for alteration, which might give scope to fair discussion.

complained, that the Resolution of the House, of the 14th of May 1793, relative to the religious and moral instruction of India, had not been attended to. He was unwilling to leave the same power in the hands of the directors for twenty years to come, who had set their face against the introduction of preachers into that country for twenty years past.

observed, that there was great apprehension of risk on that point, and a question of such magnitude ought to be left to the government of a country who were best acquainted with the circumstances which would ensure its quiet and safety. He then went generally into the commercial subject, and censured the government for its conduct in the correspondence with the India House.

said, the subject of religion was one of equal delicacy and importance. If the East India Company did not understand what was best for the country, he was sure they were not fit to govern it; if they were fit to govern it, he thought it would be invidious to interfere with them in the manner mentioned by his hon. friend. With regard to what ports the trade should be extended to, it was not his intention to confine it to those which might be qualified to enter upon the traffic now, but that it might be left with the Treasury, to extend the privilege from time to time, whenever a port, by its regulations and provisions against smuggling, &c. appeared in a condition to be safely entrusted with the trade.

concurred in thinking it expedient that evidence should be procured by the examination of witnesses at the bar of the House.

spoke against confiding the morals of the people of India for 20 years more to the East India Company.

thought that the House was called upon to legislate for the civil rights of the people of India.

The Chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again on Tuesday next.