rose to bring forward his intended motion on the subject of Irish schools. So long ago as 1806, he had moved for a committee to be appointed to inquire into the state of education in Ireland, and the House had no less than 14 Reports of that Committee lying on their table, yet nothing had been effectually done on the subject. He could have wished that no step had been taken by the Irish government, till the 14th Report had been published, which contained a general plan of education for Ireland. The object would be best attained by a committee of that House, composed both of English and Irish members, which would prevent that local bias which was almost inseparable from local interests and connections. In Ireland there was a large mass of property applicable to the purpose of education, consisting partly of crown grants, and partly arising from private donations. The former, particularly the crown grants in Ulster, he thought, might be transferred to the kingdom in general. The funds, arising from private donations, he conceived, should be strictly appropriated according to the intentions of the donors, however narrow they might be. The salaries of many of the schools in Ireland were too large; in some they amounted to 1,000l. in others to 1,400l. per annum.

He did not think that this was the principle best adapted to produce excellent schools—it was not supplying a stimulus to exertion, but was making a provision for indolence. The great public schools in England, as Eton and Westminster, had no such enormous endowments for the masters; and the two best schools in Ireland, namely, Kilkenny and Beltown, had no salary, except what arose from the number of the scholars. He wished to avoid every topic that might lead to acrimony of discussion; but he thought it necessary to state his decided opinion, that the schools of Ireland should be bottomed on the principle of giving to the rising generation the best moral instruction, independently of any differences of religious opinion. The introduction of these would evidently defeat. the end in view altogether. In this he had the authority of the 14th Report, which recommended the avoiding every religious difference. If schools had been kept up from the time of queen Elizabeth, in Ireland, according to the spirit of the Act passed in that reign, what benefits might we not now have seen flowing from it! It had been pretended, indeed, that it was impossible to avoid this rock of dissension in a country like Ireland—that Protestants would wish to make these schools an instrument of conversion from Popery, as Catholics would of conversion from Protestantism. But there was one fact which contradicted this opinion: from the Report of the Dublin daily and weekly School Committee, lately published, it appeared, that 28,000 children had been educated in that school, from its first establishment; that 1,400-children, male and female, belonged to it in the last year; that many of the most respectable traders in the city of Dublin had been educated in it, and that the most complete harmony had always subsisted between those who had the conduct of it. Yet among these we found respectable names of all religious professions—there were the names of several of the Protestant as well as titular bishops of Ireland. He stated this fact, because he thought it an important one, to shew how far differences of opinion on this subject might be mutually avoided in the attainment of this great national object. The right hon. baronet concluded with moving, "That a Select Committee be appointed to examine into the State of Education in Ireland, and specially to consider of the evidence furnished, and the, plans and measures suggested, in the fourteen Reports presented to this House from the commissioners appointed under an Act of the 46th year of his Majesty for that purpose; and that they do report their opinion as to the fittest. course which can be adopted for speedily and permanently extending the benefits of education to all the people of Ireland, and for duly securing, augmenting, and rendering efficient the funds destined to that most desirable object."

acquiesced entirely in the views of the right hon. baronet, though he differed much as to the means he had thought proper to adopt to promote them. The right hon. baronet had stated the object of his motion to be to prevent the reports of the commissioners from, being a dead letter, but he could not conceive that he would be farther removed from its attainment though he had deferred any discussion of the subject till the second reading of the Irish School Bill, which was fixed for to-morrow. The right hon. baronet would recollect, that he had admitted, in private conversation with him, that this Bill was imperfect, and that he had even suggested some alterations. by which it might be improved. There was one alteration in particular which was meant to meet one of the chief objections which had been advanced by the right hon. baronet, namely, the state of the masters of the schools.: this was provided for by an entire new clause. He could not think that the select committee moved for by the right hon. baronet was otherwise than, completely nugatory. Assuredly, he was the last man who would throw any obstacle in the way of the extension of the advantages of education to the Irish people; never would a refusal to such effect be more pregnant with injustice, for in no case could the claim be stronger, if capacity and anxiety to employ it could constitute a claim. Many instances evincing the thirst of knowledge felt by the Irish peasantry, such as must arouse the warmest feelings in every generous mind, had come within his knowledge. It was a thing quite frequent for working people to deprive themselves of all advantage from the labour of their children, in order that they might have their whole time devoted to literary acquirements; and he knew one parish in which there were no fewer than eleven evening-schools, where adults used to repair after the toils of the day, in order. to procure that culture which had been denied in their earlier years. He could not let the opportunity now afforded him pass without endeavouring to expose the injustice of the cry which had been raised against the clergy of the established church, and this, he conceived, would be in a great measure effected by his stating, that the Fourteenth Report, which had received from the right hon. baronet so much and such just eulogium, had been signed by many dignitaries of the national church. The right hon. member here proceeded to name the archbishop of Armagh, and some other persons of high rank in the established church, and after a few observations, concluded by expressing his intention of opposing the motion. Upon the whole, he thought the subject could not be put in a better train than at present pursued, and that the motion was unnecessary.

said, that he agreed with the right hon. baronet and with the rt. hon. gentleman, that this was a subject of the highest importance; he thought it deserved the most serious attention of parliament, and that it should be thoroughly considered by the House; but he could not concur in the proposition of the right hon. baronet to refer the Reports of the Board of Education to a select committee. He was of opinion that it was the duty of the executive government to take the great question discussed in those Reports under their care, and having maturely weighed it in all its bearings, to submit to parliament such a plan or plans as might appear to them the best calculated to attain the high and beneficial objects which parliament had in view when the Board of Education was established. The commissioners (of whom it was impossible to speak in too high terms) had collected all the information which the right hon. baronet could hope to obtain by the appointment of a select committee. It appeared to him, that they bad performed the exact functions which such a committee as the right hon. baronet proposed would have to execute. They had collected the materials on, which the executive government could form their plans for the consideration of parliament; and from which parliament would be enabled to decide upon the propriety of adopting or modifying what might be submitted to them. They had in fact spent nearly seven years in collecting the very materials that a select committee, were they appointed, would be bound to collect. He could not therefore see upon what ground the House could be called upon to appoint a committee The information contained in the Reports was amply sufficient to enable government to take the necessary steps, and to enable the House to decide upon the propriety of any measure which ministers might propose. During the time that he held a high official situation in Ireland, he had felt it to be his duty to turn his attention particularly to this subject, and to consider it deeply, and he was now prepared to state distinctly and candidly what in his opinion were the steps which government ought to take. Indeed it would be affectation, in him to pretend that he had not made up his mind on the whole question; either he must have been wholly unfit for the situation he had held in the Irish government, or he must upon so important a question have informed himself completely, and have fixed his opinions as to the proper course to be pursued. The right hon. baronet was not quite correct in stating that the first notice which the Irish, government had taken of the labours of the Board of Education, was after thirteen of their Reports had been laid upon the table of the House. The fact was, that in the session of 1811, when only eleven Reports had been presented, he had attentively examined them with a view of then submitting some measure to parliament upon the subject, but he found that they were so complicated in their nature, and em-braced so many points, that he could not with propriety at that time propose any definitive measure to the consideration of the House. He however had felt it to he his duty to bring in, what he stated at the time to be a mere skeleton of a Bill, with the view of calling the attention of the House to the subject. Having introduced this Bill, he, with the permission of the House, had it printed, and let it lie over till the next session, in the hope that during the recess gentlemen would turn their attention to it, and that when they met again, some efficient measure might, after such mature deliberation, be adopted. But during the recess between the session of 1811 and 1812, so many new lights were thrown upon the subject, and so much fresh information was obtained from the Board of Education, that it was thought-more advisable to wait until the commissioners had concluded their labours, and by the lord lieutenant's order they were directed to make their 14th Report upon the general system of education for the people of Ireland, that the whole subject might he brought at once under the view of parliament. He had, therefore, not renewed the Bill in the last session, but had left it in his office, where it had been found by the right hon. gentleman. and introduced as he bad stated.—He certainly did not think the Bill in its present shape at all applicable to the present circumstances of the case, the additional lights thrown upon the subject since he had framed the Bill in 1811, having entirely changed its bearings. The period was now arrived, when all the Reports were before the House, and he was sure every gentleman would agree with him when he said that they contained a most valuable mass of most important materials, He would say of the 14th Report in particular, that more wisdom, more liberality, more benignity, he believed were never displayed in so short a compass. He would now, with the permission of the House, take the liberty of stating the opinion which, after the best consideration, he had formed upon the whole of this great and complicated question, an opinion which he should not have presumed to offer if his attention had not been necessarily so particularly directed to the subject as a matter of paramount public duty. The subjects treated in the fourteen Reports of the Board of Education should in his opinion be divided pretty much as the Board had divided them in the 14th Report.—First, the endowed schools for classical education—next the schools for the education of the, poor. He would separate the regulation of these two classes, and provide the means of controlling each distinctly. He was of opinion that all the public endowed schools in Ireland, whether of royal or of private foundation, should be under the inspection and controul of commissioners, appointed under the sanction of an act of parliament, who should be responsible to government, aye, and to that House, for the due execution of their duty. It was impossible to read the Reports of the Board of Education without being convinced that there was not a single endowed school in Ireland that had not at some time or other since its foundation been greatly mismanaged. He spoke of these establishments without exception, whether classical or otherwise; the Protestant charter schools—the Diocesan schools—Erasmus Smith's schools—the schools of royal foundation—Preston's schools—in a word all the endowed schools, and all the charity schools receiving aid from parliament, had, as appeared by the Reports, been at some time or other grossly mismanaged, and suffered to fall into decay. Many of those schools were now most admirably conducted, but that was owing principally to the exertions of the commissioners, who had in many instances compelled the persons who had the care of them to do their duty. And yet the trustees of all the schools which had been so mismanaged were persons of the highest rank, and the most exalted character. The inference he drew from these circumstances was—that all these establishments would inevitably lapse into error unless there were some persons whose duty it was constantly and vigilantly to inspect their conduct. It appeared to him, therefore, that it would be absolutely necessary to appoint some superintending power to watch over them. The plan then that he should propose would be to have two sets of commissioners appointed by separate acts of parliament. One he would invest, with the superintendence of all the schools founded for classical education in Ireland, which were, as appeared by the Reports, about 46 in number. These commissioners ought not in his opinion to be persons filling the high offices of the state, or bishops, but gentlemen properly quali fied for the task, who should be paid large salaries for the due performance of their duty. Besides these schools for classical education, there were 44 charitable establishments, receiving aid from parliament, for the education of the Protestant poor in Ireland, and these he would also place under the superinten-dance of the same commissioners. There were, as appeared by the Reports, eighteen schools on private foundations, endowed for the education of poor Protestants; these he should also propose to place under the controul of the commissioners of classical education. These three descriptions of schools, being about one hundred and eight in number, should be in his judgment under the inspection of the first class of commissioners, who should not be allowed to interfere with the subject of the general education of the country. The House would recollect that in the first 46 schools which he had mentioned, the Diocesan schools were included. With respect to those schools, he quite agreed in the opinion expressed by the right hon. baronet, that in some instances they had been neglected by the bishops. The right hon. gentleman who spoke last (Mr. Peel) had said, that the fault lay with the grand juries, who were bound by law to provide the necessary funds for the erection of diocesan school houses, and that unless the grand juries erected the school houses, the schools could not be kept. But he was sorry to say that he could not acquit the bishops of a considerable degree of negligence If the bishops found that the proper schools were not erected in their dioceses, they ought immediately to apply to the grand juries, and he was sure if they did so, the necessary sums would be most cheerfully granted. Had any respectable bishop attended at assizes, and represented to the foreman of a grand jury the propriety of granting money for building a diocese and school-house, there was not an Irish gentleman in the House, who would not agree with him when he said, the money would in such a case have been granted by acclamation. He came now to the consideration of the second branch of this subject, he meant that which related to the general education of the lower orders of the people. He approved very much of the plan suggested by the Board of Education on the 14th Report. It breathed a spirit of liberality and conciliation, highly creditable to the great names under whose authority it had been framed: it would be a lasting monument of the wisdom and benignity of the commissioners. He applauded the suggestion, that the religion of the children should not be interfered with in the schools, but should be left to the care of their parents at home. This appeared to him to be most eminently calculated to promote harmony and good understanding among the people.—He agreed with the Board of Education, that it-was of the utmost importance not only not to interfere with the religion of the children, but to have it clearly and unequivocally understood by the public, that you did not intend to do so. He thought nothing could be better calculated to attain the great object desired than the plan; as far as it went he admired every part of it. He thought commissioners should be appointed as the Report recommended, and that they should commence their labours in the order proposed, by creating seminaries for the qualification of masters for the supplementary schools which were hereafter to be established. The deplorable ignorance of the teachers at the numerous schools of the poor in Ireland was an evil that called most loudly for correction; it was most forcibly described in some able papers attached to the 14th Report. And he agreed with all that had been said in the 14th Report or this subject, and thought that one of the first objects of the commissioners appointed to superintend the education of the lower orders should be the providing persons properly qualified to act as school-masters. The adoption of proper books for the schools was also an object of the highest importance: and selecting extracts from the sacred scriptures, such as avoiding, all points of controversy, could not give offence to any sect or description of Christians, would be justly entitled to the early attention of the commissioners. In fact, they could not in his opinion be established upon a more wise, humane, and liberal principle than that recommended, nor could they proceed upon their labours in any order more likely to be beneficial to the public than that pointed out by the 14th Report. He agreed also with the Board that the time of those who were to carry the new plan into execution, would be wasted unprofitably by endeavouring to reform existing schools; and that it would be far better that their attention should be turned to creating new ones, whose example might in a great measure tend to improve those now existing. But he could not think that this observation ought to be applied to the parish schools, whose present situation afforded in his judgment the best means of carrying into effect the wise plan recommended by the 14th Report, and yet if he understood it, the commissioners meant to exclude the parish schools intirely from their plan. These schools were established in the reign of Henry the 8th, for the purpose of teaching the inhabitants of Ireland the English language, and the law directs that they should be kept by or at the expence of the clergyman of the parish: from that circumstance it appeared at one period to have been inferred, that the children brought up in the parish schools were to be educated exclusively in the Protestant religion. But that opinion is exploded, and in point of fact at present, children of every religious persuasion were eligible to be educated in these parish schools. There ought to be by law one of these schools in every parish in Ireland; and as there were 2,400 parishes, there should of course be as many schools. Every clergyman upon his induction into his, living took an oath to keep or cause to be kept a school in his parish. He was sorry however to say that the law was very imperfectly complied with. The Board of Education with all its diligence had pro- Cured returns from only between 7 and 800 parishes; and it did not appear that there were above 550 parish schools now established in Ireland. In presenting his Bill in 1811 he had stated that he looked to the parish schools as the foundation upon which a general system for the education of the lower orders could be best erected; and he then declared that he thought the clergy should furnish a part of the funds which would be necessary. He was glad to find the principle upon which he proposed to act in some degree recognised by the Board of Education. In the appendix to the 4th Report they recommend 2s. in the pound to be assessed upon each clergyman for the support of the parish schools; but they do not recommend to establish them upon the principles laid down for the system of general education — they state the number of parishes to be 2,400, and they calculate that the parish schools ought to educate 120,000 children: they state the present number of children educated in the existing parish schools to be 23,000. Now what be wished was that the parish schools that were now in existence should continue upon their present footing; but that where new parish schools were established, they should be under the same regulations as the supplementary schools, and be furnished with a Protestant or Catholic master, according to the predominance of the religion in the parish, upon the same principle as the supplementary schools were to be created. You would by this means continue to leave the 23,000 educated in the parish schools, as they now are, and the remainder of the 120,000-would be formed upon the new and improved principle. This would certainly give a great facility towards carrying into effect practically and speedily, the benevolent views which have so laudably actuated the respectable persons who proposed the system of general education; and it seemed so obvious to him to take advantage, of it, that be could not help thinking he had in some way or other mistaken the meaning of the Report in this particular. It would be a matter of the utmost importance to select with care and judgment the commissioners who were to superintend the education of the lower orders. Upon their discretion, credit, assiduity, and ability, as the Report observed, almost every thing would depend. They ought in his opinion, like the other commissioners which he had recommended, to be amply remunerated for their labours, and they should be strictly responsible to government and to parliament. They would. undoubtedly have most laborious and important duties to per-form, but he had no doubt but that gentle men would be found who would ably and conscientiously discharge this interesting trust. The plan however could not only not be complete, but in his opinion it would be very imperfect indeed, unless some of the commissioners were Roman Catholics. A selection should be made from the most respectable part of both communions, to form the board to be entrusted with the execution of this charge, the most interesting that the mind of man can imagine—a trust, which if executed in the same spirit of benevolence with which it has been conceived, must tend most materially to enlighten and to amend the lower orders of the people of all persuasions. Upon the whole he was of opinion that the information then before the House was sufficient to enable them to legislate upon this subject, and that therefore it was not necessary that a select committee should be appointed. The House, he was convinced, might safely trust the arrangement of this great measure in the first instance to government, who certainly could have no other object or interest in this business but to give universal satisfaction; and he was sure the noble duke at the head of the government of Ireland, would be most happy to close his labours by the accomplishment of so, great a work. He had no doubt but that his grace would offer to the House something worthy of the hand from whence it came, and of the assembly to whom it was presented.

did not think the course proposed by the right hon. baronet would lead to the attainment of the object he had in view; In conformity to the spirit by which the reports of the commissioners were dictated, he thought that the best plan would be to leave the measure where it then was, and not to enter into any struggle for the credit of per. fecting it. It should be left in the hands of those, who, if there were any act of grace, ought to have the glory of originating it; and he trusted that the House would not consent to rob the noble duke at the head of the Irish government of the satisfaction of effecting that which was one of the greatest objects of his political life; or impute to him, by acceding to the motion, that he had been guilty of any neglect of his public duty.

made a short reply, after which the motion was negatived without a division.

rose, and begged permission of the House to state to them the sequel of what had passed in consequence of the step he had yesterday stated he should take on the subject of the paper he had thought it his duty to read, and to remark on, to the House last week. As much misrepresentation had gone abroad as to the mode in which he had used that paper, he begged now to repeat what he had stated at the time, and as to the accuracy of which he was in the recollection of the House. He had stated that he did not vouch for the authenticity of the paper; though, from the quarter whence he had received it, he believed it to be authentic. He had stated that he was informed that many of the papers had given incorrect copies of the depositions of the witnesses, and had expressed his opinion, if the paper now in question was correct, that many of the impressions abroad against her royal highness the Princess of Wales must be removed. He did not say that the Lords Commissioners had been guilty of any fabrication; that they had been guilty of any suppression or addition, in the evidence which. had been taken by them. But he had said that, if the paper which had been put into his hand was to be considered as authentic, the conduct of the Princess of Wales, as to the imputation of having acted in a manner unbecoming a married woman, was very much relieved. He did not read the questions as having been actually put; but only said, if such questions had been put, that they ought riot to have been put. He had believed that the questions, as well as the answers, had all been taken down, as was the practice in taking evidence before the House of Commons, and also before private committees, as well as in the court of Chancery, so, in a commission of so important and delicate a nature as the one in question, he had presumed that a similar rule would have prevailed. He had been led to believe that the questions and answers had been taken down. He was sorry, at the time, not to see an hon. and learned friend of his (sir S. Romilly) in his place; but the moment he had heard from his hon. and learned friend that the questions bad not been taken down, that moment he felt that he could not set up the paper as an authentic document, and so he stated to the House. Still, however, he did believe that the witnesses could not be entirely forgetful of the impressions under which they gave their evidence; and being of opinion that if the questions contained in the paper were the questions actually put to Mrs. Lisle, on which she gave the narrative contained in her deposition, that those questions, as he had for-merly expressed himself, took the sting out of that deposition, agreeably to what he had intimated to the House last night, he had written to Mrs. Lisle as follows;—

"Dear Madam; I am exceedingly sorry to be troublesome to you, and especially on such an occasion; but when I have stated the case to you, I have no doubt you will acknowledge the necessity I am under of, addressing, you.

"On Wednesday last, before I went to the House of Commons, a paper was put into my hands, of which I send you a copy inclosed.

"I was assured it contained an authentic account of your examination before the Lords Commissioners on the conduct of the Princess of Wales.

"Believing in the integrity of the per-son who made the communication to me, I read the paper, as I was told, I might freely do, in the House of Commons; and, as I thought, that justice demanded I should.

"Lord Ellenborough has, this evening declared, in the: House of Lords, that the paper is a false fabrication, as I understand, from those who heard him; and that the other Commissioners have expressed their opinions, although more mildly, to the, same effect.

"So circumstanced, I, am compelled to ask you, whether you agree in the character ascribed to the paper by the noble lords—if you do, I shall only have to lament that I have been so imposed upon, and to acknowledge the imposition practised upon me.

"If he paper should ever before have been seen by you, I shall be extremely glad to receive all such information as, you may have it in your power to give respecting it, that I may trace the fabrication to its author. I have the honour to be, dear Madam, your faithful servant,

(Signed) "SAMUEL WHITBREAD."

"House of Commons, March 22, 1813."

He wished to state the House,. that in his letter to Mrs. Lisle he had selected the softest expressions reported to him to have been used by lord Ellenborough. He had heard of such terms employed by that noble lord, as had been long banished from all the intermediate classes of society. Such terms as were not necessary for the assertion of innocence, the vindication of character, nor even for the purpose of premeditated offence. Amongst the very west of mankind they were common and disregarded, and amongst the highest, he hoped and believed they were exclusively confined to the sacred person of the Lord Chief Justice of England. Unexpectedly this morning he had received the following answer:—

"Canbury, March 23, 1813.

"Dear Sir; I received this morning your letter, with the accompanying account of my examination when before the Lords Commissioners, in the year 1806, and having compared it with the original documents, I find them exactly similar.

"On my return from the Lords Commissioners, I, to the best of my recollection, committed to paper the questions which had been put to me, and my answers; and I transmitted a copy to the Princess of Wales, having received her Royal Highness's commands so to do.

"It has never been my intention to set up these recollections against my deposition; and as little has it been my wish, that they should be made public. Indeed, so scrupulous have I been in this respect, that with the exception of the copy sent to the Princess, immediately after my examination, the paper now in question, was not till very recently seen by my nearest connections; even now it would not have been seen by them, had not erroneous statements and garbled extracts from my deposition, appeared in some of the public papers.

"How the paper has found its way into your hands, I guess not, as I have already stated, it has not been by any act or intention of mine; but certainly the paper which you have sent me is a correct copy of the one that I had written. I am, dear Sir, your faithful and obedient servant,.

"HESTER LISLE."

Having read this letter, he hoped neither the House nor the public would expect him to say that he had been imposed upon. This was a paper containing Mrs. Lisle's recollection of questions put to her at the time of her deposition, and which she immediately afterwards put down in writing. She did not wish this paper to be taken as in opposition to, or in contradiction of her deposition, more than he (Mr. W.) did. There was no difference alleged as to the answers. The only dispute was, as to the questions, and as to the meaning in which the term "married woman" was to be taken. In no other respect did he mean to set up the impression of Mrs. Lisle's mind at the moment, against the deposition of Mrs. Lisle, taken down in writing by the Lords Commissioners. He never meant to charge the noble lords with any fabrication or falsification of evidence whatever. But he must still say, that he should esteem himself blameable, if, having the questions in his hand, be had not, by reading them along with the deposition, endeavoured to extract from it its sting. In doing what he had done, he was satisfied that he had consulted justice.—He could not now pretend to say, that the Lords Commissioners had taken down questions as well as answers, but he could not think of throwing out so gross an imputation on an honourable person like Mrs. Lisle, as to suppose that she would put down, as part of her examination before the Commissioners, any thing which did not take place. So cautious was she, indeed, that as to one question, of the precise answer to which she was not certain, she leaves it blank. He was sorry to give pain to any one, particularly to noble lords, with whom he had always stood on the most friendly footing; and to a noble lord of such elevated rank as the Chief Justice of England. He had a duty to discharge, however, paramount to all feelings of the kind. And he must now say, that if the same thing presented itself to him at the present moment, he would follow the very same course he had done; and would with confidence throw himself on the justice and candour of the public. (Hear! hear!)

should not have risen, except for the concluding declaration of the hon. gentleman, who bad stated, that he would act over again the same part, if it were necessary. The hon. member surely, could not have read the paper which had excited so much animadversion, unless he then believed that the deposition either Suppressed what was true, or contained what was false. For it would be, indeed, a strange perversion of justice, and a most unprecedented course of proceeding, if the formal testimony and recorded depositions of witnesses under exa- mination in any court, or before any magistrate, were to be contradicted by sub sequent explanations, and imperfect and distant recollections, to be set up in parliament against regular and attested evidence. The proceeding was rendered still more objectionable, as it tended directly to a derogation of the great judicial authorities of the country. The hon. gentleman himself was too well read in the constitution, and he was confident that its principles were too deeply impressed on his mind, not to justify him in contending on his behalf, that an imposition had been practised upon him. He conceived that the hon. gentleman ought to hare consulted others respecting the authenticity of the document, before he had produced it to the House, and: that the circumstance of his hon. and learned friend (sir S. Romilly) having attended the investigation, should have operated as an additional motive with him, to ascertain, in the first instance, whether the paper was such as might be justly contrasted with the deposition, or considered as entitled to the same degree of credibility and confidence. He hoped, therefore, that the hon. gentleman was prepared to admit, that he was at least so far in error, and had been con-Victed of acting hastily and imprudently.

said, that the noble lord had put many words into his mouth, for the purpose of making him acknowledge what he by no means did acknowledge; He denied, distinctly, that any imposition had been practised upon him, and if it had, he should be ashamed to throw upon another his own defect, in not having made due enquiry; Thus far he might have been deficient; But to say that he had been imposed upon, if by that was meant that Mrs. Lisle had fabricated the document in question, or that the person who gave it to him meant it should convey an impression different from the true one, he must contend was unfounded. He would further say; that he did not intend to derogate from the authority and character of the commissioners; but he did express his surprise that questions, such as he had described, had been put to the witness by so high a legal character as lord Erskine. Had he been told at the time that the paper contained only the recollections of Mrs. Lisle, he should equally have thought it his duty to comment upon it in the way he had done.

replied; that as a ge neral principle he did not; cenceive the hon. gentleman was warranted in commenting upon the recollected evidence of the witness, in opposition to her formal and attested deposition.

rejoined, that he had not produced the copy to oppose, but to explain the testimony of the witness.

said, he had no desire to protract the discussion of a subject so painful and inconvenient as the present; but at the same time, he could not forbear expressing his decided disapprobation of that irregular proceeding Which had caused so much animadversion. In his opinion, the paper that had been introduced by his hon. friend, and which had been called evidence, and an authentic document, deserved neither of these appellations. He was sorry his hon. friend had been betrayed into such a proceeeding, for although he imputed nothing but the purest intention to Mrs. Lisle, her copy of the examination could never be made the foundation of any parliamentary measure, or of any authentic parliamentary statement. Questions were, indeed, taken down before some commissioners, and in particular courts, but never before magistrates, at his hon. friend, who had so often acted in that character must well know. There were many reasons for not noticing questions; the object was always information, not the mode by which it was acquired; and supposing that they were negatived, or productive of no material answer, it would be utterly useless to mi ante them down in writings The most essential interests of justice must suffer and be endangered, if the solemn and sworn testimony delivered by a witness; were to be subjected to after correction; or to be explained away at a subsequent period. Few or no persons could entertain sufficient confidence in their memory, to repeat with precision the words in question that had been put to them. His hon; friend had therefore, he conceived, acted with precipitation and he the more regretted it, as he had; in so acing, affixed a stigma on the conduct of high and grave personages, who had been engaged in the discharge of a very arduous and important duty.

expressed great reluctance to protract the irregular discussion then be fore the House, but hoped he should be permitted to say a few words upon the question He would acknowledge that the impression made upon his mind by what had fallen from his hon friend on a former evening was (to use his hon. friend's expression) that the published deposition of Mrs. Lisle was only an abstract of that which she had really made; and that consequently suspicions attached to the four noble Commissioners. The matter, indeed, now wore a very different appearance, and he strongly deprecated the notion of his hon. friend, of setting up the subsequent testimony of Mrs. Lisle against her formal deposition. He did not mean to speak with disrespect of that lady; he had the honour of knowing her. and of holding her in the highest respect and estimation. His hon. friend had admitted that she was much afflicted during her examination; that her mind was in a state of great agitation; and yet she was able to recollect distinctly upon her return home all the questions that had been put to her, and all her answers to them. Mrs. Lisle would not, he was certain, state that she had such a memory. Yet, though Mrs. Lisle declared she would not pretend to oppose her recollections to the deposition authenticated by the Commissioners, his hon. friend had maintained that if she asserted the authenticity of the document he had read, he should still persevere in his opinion of it. A principle like that he did consider as affecting all the recorded evidence in the country; he regretted its adoption by his hon. friend, and he also regretted that he had produced a minute of that sort without cautiously ascertaining its authenticity.

declared, that he had intended nothing more in the observations with which he had introduced the paper in question than to express his surprise that the answer of Mrs. Lisle to the question relative to her opinion as a married woman was not inserted in the deposition. His hon. and learned friend (sir S. Romilly) had said, he believed that no original copy was preserved. of the examination, but that after the proceedings had terminated it was destroyed. [Here sir S. Romilly said, "certainly not."] He had then mistaken, but had not intended to misrepresent his hon. and learned friend. He again averred that he never had any intention of imputing improper motives to the noble lords entrusted with the commission.

observed, that it was entirely a mistake to suppose him-ever to have said that a single paper belonging to the commission had been destroyed, He believed, too that might be material to add, that there never was but one copy of the evidence, the original paper being retained with all the corrections of the wit-nesses, before they signed the depositions; In one instance only, he believed, although he could not be confident; the corrections and interlineations were so numerous, that a fresh copy was taken.

said, here could not possibly be a more forcible illustration of the frailty of human memory, and of the little dependence which could safely be placed on it, than had been afforded by his hon-friend himself, who it seemed, was incapable of recollecting either what he had himself, or what his hon. and learned friend had said a few nights ago. With respect to the paper then read, his opinion at the time was, that it must be a fabrication. He had returned from the House to write a note to his hon. and learned friend, to acquaint him with the nature of the paper that had been produced, and had stated to the House, that if it were authentic, it must overwhelm the Commissioners with disgrace. His hon. friend had said he did not mean to set up that recollected testimony against the formal deposition. But he begged leave to say that his hon. friend could not do so; and if he did, the only effect would be to destroy the credit of the witness whose credibility he wished to uphold. And now he must say, and he said it with regret, but it was a course which candour and honour pointed out to him, that he did think he had great cause to complain of the conduct of his hon. friend. He hoped his hon. friend would not be offended if he spoke plainly, and sincerely his opinion. He sat by the side of his hon. friend on the night he made his motion, and he never once intimated to him that he meditated so grave a charge against four noble persons, with three of whom he was intimately connected, and in whose character he felt an interest as deep as he felt in his. own, He did think therefore, that he had great cause of complaint against his hon. friend, in not giving him an opportunity of ascertaining from those noble lords, the authenticity of, that document, if his hon. friend did not think proper to do so himself. He could not help saying, that the impression on his mind, at the, time, was, that the Commissioners had not taken down, the deposition faithfully, but that they had substantially falsified it. He said, on that night, that a graver charge could not; be brought against them; and he would now say, that if the Commissioners had so acted, in a case of: such magnitude as one touching the life and honour of the wife of the heir apparent to the crown, they would have merited impeachment in that House, and the severest punishment parliament could inflict upon them. He hoped his hon. friend would excuse what he had said of his hasty conduct, at least, to use the mildest term, in not apprising him, or the noble lords, of the existence of such a document, before he brought it forward in so solemn a way.

could see no grounds for the accusation in which so many hon. members had joined against the hon. gentleman, who appeared to him to have exerted himself most successfully and most honourably to promote the ends of substantial justice. He thought the country was indebted to, him for those exertions, and he knew not how to account for the concern and feeling evinced by those who were parties to an enquiry, which had now produced so satisfactory a result, and so general a conviction of the innocence of the individual immediately affected by it. That conviction was to be attributed in a great measure to the eloquence and zeal of the hon. gentleman who had been so lavishly and unreasonably condemned. The right hon. gentleman who spoke last had talked of the frailty of memory, and appeared to him. to have taken an unworthy advantage of the hon. gentleman, as if parliamentary language and the ordinary mode of expression in that House were not more vague and uncertain than testimony given in a court of justice. The hon. baronet said he was of opinion, that those proceedings were altogether anomalous and unconstitutional, and it was not surprising if irregularities took place, and if technical rules were disregarded, which might be very proper under more regular and legal proceedings. Considering the secret manner in which Mrs. Lisle had been examined, he saw nothing extravagant in the claim to be allowed to correct what she might conceive to alter the complexion of the body of her evidence. He would not. now make any observation as to the legality of the commission, but hoped: a time would come when that question would be discussed. At present he should content himself with returning his warmest thanks to the hon. gentleman for having been the cause of rendering the innocence of the Princess of Wales manifest to the whole world.

denied that he had taken any unworthy advantage of his hon. friend., He had only observed a mistake into which he himself had confessed that he had fallen.

said that he did not impute to his right hon. friend the taking any unworthy advantage. He was quite welcome to all the freedom he bad used. He, Mr. Whitbread, retained his opinion of the propriety of his own conduct. He had given all the circumstances to the House and the public: and the observations of his right hon. friend, on the defectiveness of his memory, he conceived, were very little applicable to the case of Mrs. Lisle.