—How long have you been in the service of the East India Company? — Thirty-nine years, nearly 34 of which I resided in India.—I belonged to the military establishment of Bengal—I now hold the office of chief engineer upon that establishment. — I returned from India about two years and a half ago.—In the course of my service I have been at nearly all the Company's stations in the interior of Hindostan, and in many places in the Mahratta country; I have also navigated the whole of the coast of Hindostan from the gulph of Cambay to the peninsula of Malacca, and on the west coast of Sumatra—I am thus acquainted with both coasts of the peninsula of India.—In the course of my professional avocations, I have had much to do with the natives of Hindostan, in forming contracts for materials, and employing workmen for carrying on public works.

Supposing from the circumstance of opening the trade from every port in the United Kingdom to every port within the limits of the Company's charter (Canton excepted) a considerable and indiscriminate influx of Europeans should take place, what effects do you apprehend might arise from that circumstance?—The effects, I think, would be fraught with the greatest danger ultimately to the Company's possessions.

Be pleased to state the reasons?—From the character of the lower class of Europeans, who, more especially upon their first going to India, hold the natives in the most sovereign contempt, and whenever they can have an opportunity, treat them exceedingly ill; from another part of the character of the lower class of Europeans, that they are extremely addicted to spirituous liquors, whenever they can get them, and the vast facility there is in every market and village in Hindostan to obtain ardent spirits at a very trifling ex-pence, and when intoxicated are apt to commit disturbances, and thus give a bad impression of the European character.—During the time that I had occasion to carry on the public works, particularly at the fortress of Allahabad, where I was employed five or six years, I was permitted by government to get European overseers from the different corps of the army, and in general the best men were recommended to me; but in a little time I found it so impossible to depute any sort of authority to those men, on account of their using the natives ill, that I was obliged to leave off employing them, and have recourse to native overseers; the same has happened in all public works that I have had occasion to carry on.

When it has happened that soldiers have had leave to go any way into the interior, or have strayed from their garrisons, what effects have you noticed from such permission or absence?—In general to get drunk, and to commit disturbances in the villages into which they go, to drive the natives out of the villages and to commit every species of disorder; but government have established strict regulations, and commanding officers are very careful to prevent their quitting the garrisons and cantonments on this very ac count.

Have offences to the natives, of a deep and serious nature, sometimes arisen from the inadvertence or ignorance of new comers?—Frequently, I dare say, from the inadvertence of new comers, especially in their interfering unwarily in their religious ceremonies; a very melancholy instance of that happened just before I left Bengal, to two young gentlemen that had just entered the service: from the cantonments of Muttra two young cavalry officers went to the temples of Binderbund, near that place, where there were a great number of monkies, which the natives about their temples hold in a certain measure sacred; those young gentlemen were inadvertently induced to shoot at the monkies, in consequence of which, the whole of the officiating priests, and a number of fakeers that were round, rose, and with stones and clods of earth obliged the young gentlemen, who were upon an elephant, to take to the river Jumna, which they endeavoured to cross, and perished in the attempt: it was entirely from ignorance in those young gentlemen, that the monkey in such a situation was held sacred, that they were guilty of this imprudent act.

If the new adventurers, in consequence of this universal and unlimited opening of the trade, were to consist of such persons as seamen, traders, and artisans, do you apprehend that the dangers which you have described would be increased in any material degree?—Certainly in a very great degree; were they permitted to visit all the ports in the vast extended coasts within the Company's dominions in India, they would commit disturbances without end.

Assuming them to have, the licence, not only of going directly to every port within the limits of the Company's charter, but to proceed from port to port according to their discretion, do you believe that such persons could be restrained from penetrating into the interior?—I think it is impossible; the extent is so great that the government could not possibly guard it at all points, with every precaution they could take.

Be pleased to state what regulations you have in contemplation in that answer, and how you think such regulations could be evaded?—The only regulations that government could adopt, would be to send a force and establish a police at every port where those people could possibly land in pushing a trade; and I do not think that government would be able to do it: on the Malabar coast alone, during the north east monsoon, from Cape Comorin to the gulph of Cambay, either in our own possession or that of our allies, the points where they might land, are I may say without number.

Supposing any material number of new adventurers, either from eluding the vigilance of government, or from any of the means to which you have referred, to make their way into the interior of India, what do you apprehend might be the effect of such ingress?—I do not think the natives in any situation would allow Europeans in a body to penetrate into the country, it is only straggling Europeans that are likely to make their way.

Would then an influx of new adventurers, ignorant of their language as well as of their manners and their superstitions, be very likely to give great and considerable offence to both their manners and superstitions?—A great influx of such Europeans would doubtless lead to great disorders of every kind.

Supposing those who should speculate on going to India, under the presumed act for opening the trade, should be disappointed in such speculations, do you apprehend that they would succeed in obtaining settlement in some part or other of India; or to what means might they have recourse to repair the loss which they shall thus have met with?—I really know not; I very much fear that if small vessels were allowed to navigate to India in very great numbers, the losses that they would incur (which I am certain would necessarily happen) might lead some of them to commit depredations on the small native vessels, to make up their losses. We know that upon former occasions, upon a disappointment in trade, piracies did take place; and I think it was in reign of king William that there was an establishment of pirates at Madagascar, under a pirate of the name of Avery, who assembled many vessels there, and commited depredations on the coast of Malabar and other parts of India.—In the eastern Archipelago, and on the coast of Borneo, there are a great number of piratical vessels, that will never fad to endeavour to overpower vessels that are not extremely well armed.

Are you of opinion it is probable that, in the case of thus opening the trade, there will be any material increase in the consumption or purchase of European articles among the natives of India?—I by no means think there will; I believe the great consumption of European articles is now, as it almost ever has been, by the Europeans themselves; that consumption has within these 30 years past very much increased, but that, I conceive, has been chiefly owing to the great increase of European inhabitants and their descendants, who have the same habits and use the same articles as their fathers. About the time I mentioned, there were only two king's regiments in India, at present there are twenty; our military establishments have more than doubled, as I imagine has also the civil service; this vast increase of European inhabitants, therefore, fully accounts for the increased consumption of European articles.—The European residents out of the Company's service, but residing with their express permission, have also very materially increased; about 20 years ago there were not more than 5 or 600 Europeans not in the Company's service, in the whole of Bengal; three years ago, when I left India, there were nearly 2,000 in Bengal only.

Be pleased to give your reason for thinking that among the natives no particular increase of European consumption will take place? — Because the general class of the lower order of the natives have it not in their power to purchase those articles, even if they had the inclination; and the superior class of the natives have manufactures of their own that they are more attached to than ours, and therefore have no great inclination for them: broad cloth, the useful metals, watches, some articles of ornament, mostly used at the principal settlements, such as looking-glasses, framed prints, lustres, and a small quantity of hardware, is all that I know the natives of Hindustan wish to take from us.

Do you know what or whereabouts is the estimated native population of Cal- cutta?—There have been various opinions upon the population of Calcutta, but I do not believe there has ever been a very correct census made. Sir Henry Russell a very few years ago declared, upon, an occasion from the bench, that the inhabitants of Calcutta and its environs amounted to one million; I myself believe that there are between four and five hundred thousand.

How long have you been acquainted with Calcutta?—It is now 41 years since I first visited Calcutta.

During the whole of that period, have you observed any increased propensity in the natives to the adoption of European fashions, or the consumption of European articles; or do they continue to adhere to the fashions and tastes which prevailed when you first knew them?—I do not see a greater inclination in the natives at this time than there was when I first went to India. The lower classes of the natives in Calcutta have retained their habits, as they do in every other part of Hindostan.—In the other great towns of Hindostan that I have visited, there are very few of the natives that adopt our manners: at Lucknow, the late and the present nabob of Oude have had a very singular taste for European articles; the present nabob Sadit Ali is the only native I ever knew who had a real taste for European conveniencies; he has excellent houses of his own building, well furnished, carriages, horses, a table well served in the European style, and every thing in as good style as any gentleman can have in this country; with him it is matter of taste.

State the articles which you allude to as indicating a conformity to European taste in the inhabitants of Calcutta, to whom you have referred?—Having in their houses chairs and tables, instead of sitting upon the ground; having their walls ornamented with pictures and looking glasses; having lustres hung up, having, many of them, European close carriages; but I do not think it extends to many other articles.

Can you state whether more manufacture of European articles is pursued now in Calcutta and the other presidencies, than formerly?—A great number of European artisans have established themselves in Calcutta, in Patna, at all our cantonments, at Lucknow, and almost all the great towns where there are, Europeans, for carrying on the various manufactures of articles used by Europeans, such as car- riages, furniture of all kinds, palankeens of a peculiar construction invented by the Europeans, plate, sadlery, boots and shoes, salting meats, in making guns and pistols, and a variety of other articles that I do not now recollect; they have taught the native artificers, who are very acute and dexterous, to execute every article in a manner almost to emulate those that are sent from England: but. I have to observe, that the whole of these manufactures is for the use of Europeans, as they can furnish them at a cheaper rate than those of the same kind imported from Europe; and I firmly believe that if we were by any means to leave Hindostan altogether, that they would entirely drop those manufactures, and employ themselves in carrying on their own.

Do you think that in time such an ingress of artificers might not be the means of very much superseding the necessity for the importation of British manufactures to India?—It has already in a great measure superseded that necessity, and the increase of articles which have gone from this country has not been in proportion to the increase of the European population.

Do you think that such opening of the trade will be consistent either with the happiness of the natives, or with the security of the British interests in India?—, I do not think it can possibly be conducive to the happiness of the natives, and I think it would in a material degree risk our safety in that country.

(Examined by the Committee.)

Supposing the foreign possessions, Pondicherry, &c. &c. to be restored at a general peace, would not a promiscuous admission of British subjects to India render it next to impossible to prevent their access to the interior becoming very general, and also facilitate their entrance into the service of the native powers?—Undoubtedly I think it would very much facilitate their entrance into the interior of the country, and in that event it would be much more dangerous than it is at this time.

Supposing the trade opened to the eastern islands, the Moluccas and Banda, might not adventurers, English and other Europeans, settle in them; and being without controul, become pirates, and embroil Britain in serious difficulties in preserving a good understanding with the empire of China?—There is no manner of doubt that there are many places in the eastern islands, where, by a concerted plan of a few European vessels, they could establish themselves and even fortify themselves in such manner, so as to give government much trouble in rooting them out; and during that time they would have an opportunity of committing great depredations upon the eastern trade.

Have you not known, in many instances, of vessels employed in the country trade of India, when trading to the Malay ports, that the ships and cargoes have been seized, and the whole of the crews murdered, by the natives?—There is nothing so common, the thing has happened almost annually since ever I recollect; the ships that engage in the Malay trade, especially those that go to the coast of Borneo, are obliged to be very strongly armed, to be fitted out at great expence, to hire a military force of sepoys to protect them, with a very strong crew, and even then they are sometimes cut off, if they do not use the greatest precautions.

If the intercourse is enlarged by vessels from this country, do not you think that those accidents would much more frequently occur?—I do not conceive that the possible profit would justify the expence of fitting out and arming a vessel from this country, to trade on the Malay coast; in the first place, I know of no articles that they could carry from Great Britain to the Malay coast, that would answer the purpose; the whole of the articles of commerce with which the Malay trader supplies himself, I believe, are opium, a small quantity of piece-goods, and a peculiar species of silk known by the name of Muggaduties; those articles, with a few Lascar knives and red woollen caps, are the only articles that the Malays take from them; I do not believe they indulge in European articles in any way; I should therefore conceive that any speculation from Great Britain directly to the Malay coast, would end in a total loss.

What effect do you think would be produced upon the peace of the country, and the British power there, if the Poligars had the means of procuring arms from private traders and private ships?—The making them more turbulent and unmanageable than they are at present.

What, in your opinion, has been the general effect produced upon the minds of the Company's officers, by their exclusion from the higher stations in India, and from those marks of honour and public distinction which are usually the rewards of eminent military services?—It certainly has been very depressing, and has caused them to leave the service whenever they conveniently could.

Is it not of essential importance that all the officers, whether superior or subaltern, employed in the sepoy service, should understand the customs, languages, manners, and usages of the natives?—It is certainly very essential: I have the pleasure to say, that I do not believe that there can be a finer set of officers than there is at present in the Bengal sepoy corps, or who know their duty better, or are more acquainted with the manners of the people, or the languages of the country. [The witness withdrew.]

WILLIAM YOUNG, esq. was called in, and examined as follows:

Mr. Adam. —Have you not served the East India Company in their civil service?—I have. From 1765 to 1786. I rose to the rank of senior merchant, and held that rank till I quitted the country.—The first five years I passed in the accountant's office; I was then sent on a particular commission to the districts to the south of Calcutta, where I was employed between one and two years; I was afterwards collector of Tirhoot, in the province of Bahar, for some time; and the rest of my time in the public service was as member of the provincial council of revenue at Patna.

Do you consider, from the opportunities you had of making observations upon the character of the Indians, particularly the Hindoos, that an unrestrained influx of Europeans would be attended with evil consequences to that country?—I think that it would be attended with very serious evil consequences.

In what respect do you consider that it would be attended with such consequences?—From their violence, and from their ignorance of the usages, ways, and habits of the people, particularly with respect to their religious habits.

Do you conceive that the conduct of of Europeans, if checked by the authority the law, would have a bad effect upon the English authority over the Indian natives?—I think that any punishment of Europeans in that country always has a tendency to degrade the British character in the opinion of the natives.

Do you conceive that the general bulk of the people are likely to become customers for European commodities?—If by European commodities is understood articles of merchandize, they are customers in some degree. They purchase various articles imported by the Company, such as broad cloth, long ells, and other sorts of woollen manufactures, also metals of various sorts; but I recollect scarcely any thing else that they purchase.

At the period of your residence in India, was the means of supply of those commodities, through the medium of the Company's ships, sufficient to answer the Indian demand?—I believe it was always most ample.

Have you any reason to suppose, from the state of Indian manners at the time you left Bengal, that there was a likelihood of such an alteration as to produce an increased demand for European commodities?—I do not think that there was; the people appeared to me, when I left the country, precisely the same as they were when I arrived there.

DAVID HALIBBRTON, esq. was called in, and examined, as follows:

Mr. Jackson.]—How long were you in the service of the Company?—Five and twenty years: upon the Madras establishment:—I was appointed Persian translator in 1788.—I was in the revenue department from 1782 till 1795, when I returned home. I was at the head of the revenue department for the last four years of my residence in that country—I endeavoured to form an opinion of the character of the natives, as far as came within my means.—I became, I believe, acquainted with the customs and manners of the people.

Supposing British subjects to be allowed the right of going from every port in the United Kingdom to every port in India, and a material influx of Europeans to take place in consequence, what effect do you apprehend that might have upon the British interests in India?—I think it would be injurious to the interests of the British government in India. When Europeans arrive in that country first, I think I have observed that they have a great contempt for the natives, and suppose themselves a superior order of beings; that they often maltreat them, and sometimes will hurt their feelings in many things, without supposing that they are doing so, in respect of their manners and their religious customs, and other prejudices; that it has been found necessary on occasions when large bodies of Euro- peans have arrived at Madras, in the navy, for example, and have been obliged to land at the hospitals or other places, to put them under some restraint, for fear of their giving offence to the natives; and the same when any large bodies of troops, such as King's regiments, have arrived there in my time, and have been sent up into garrisons, it depended very much upon the commanding officers to keep them under proper restraint from committing violences and outrages in the neighbourhood of such forts. I think the longer stay Europeans make in that country, they form a better opinion of the natives than they had upon their arrival, especially if they have attained the languages of that country.

Do you apprehend that an influx of strangers, such as seamen, traders, and artificers, ignorant of the language and ignorant of their customs, might not be the means, either wilfully or ignorantly, of giving very serious offence to the natives?—Certainly it must have that effect.

What consequences would you apprehend from such offence being given in any material degree?—It depends entirely upon the situation in which those offences might be committed, for the Hindoos in general, in that part of the country near Madras, are a timid race of people; they perhaps might submit and suffer such; violence; in other situations, particularly in hilly situations or woods, where they are of a more ferocious disposition, and apt to resent any injury, they might return violence. An instance I recollect of a gentleman, in the, Ramnâd, about 300 miles south of Madras, who was a paymaster; he thought he could entertain some company that he had better by giving them veal, for which he ordered a calf to be killed; he was seized by the Hindoo inhabitants, and very nearly put to death, if he had not been rescued by some military force: this happened in 1772.

Do you think that a series of aggressions from adventurers ignorant of their language and their manners, might provoke such a description of people to insurrection?—Very much depends upon the character of the people of the district where the injury is committed; but, in general, the Hindoos I have met with have been of a very timid race. I think the Mahomedans are rather bolder, but there are very few of them in that part of India, except at the seat of the nabob's court; the Mahomedans are but thinly scattered in the Carnatic.

Do you think that, in consequence of opening the trade, any material increase of demand is likely to take place for European articles, for the consumption of the natives?—I think not.

State why you think not?—From the habits and the few wants that the people of the country have; even at Madras, which is the oldest English establishment in India; for it dates as far back as 1620, one would suppose that the people there would be more in the habit of using English articles than at any other place, but the purchase of those articles there is confined to very few.

Are their habits, according to your observation and understanding, of a fixed and unchangeable nature?.—Certainly, I think so; I have no doubt in my mind, about it.

How long did you know Madras?—I arrived there in 1770, that is 43 years ago. I remained there the whole time I was in India, 25 years.

During the whole of that time, did you observe any increasing taste in the native population of which you have spoken, towards the Europeans, or to the consumption of European articles?—None towards the habits of the Europeans; but a few might have had a taste, such as the class of people called dubashes, who are native interpreters to the gentlemen there, or their commercial agents and money brokers, to purchase European articles of furniture in their houses, but to a very small extent.

Did such of the natives as acquired property, direct their expenditure towards the purchase of English articles?—To a very small amount, perhaps watches, and a few toys, or glass ware, but to a very inconsiderable amount.

During the whole of the time that you were there, was there an ample supply of European articles?—Yes, certainly.

If the mass of the natives had been disposed to such purchase, would they have had the means?—Certainly, many of them had the means; when I arrived in the country there were a set of men called the Company's merchants, through whom the investment was provided; those men were rich men; there were many other men of wealth, but very few of them purchased any European articles: I think there was only one carriage kept by a native, except the nabob's family.

Can you contemplate any possible increased demand for European articles, which the present system is not more than equal fully to supply?—I think not;

GRÆME MERCER, esq. was called in, and examined as follows;

Mr. Impey.]—How long have you been in the service of the Company?—Nearly 25 years.—I was appointed to the medical department, but have been employed both in the revenue and political departments frequently.

Have you been enabled to make accurate observations upon the characters, manners and observances of the natives?—It is difficult to form a general character of the natives of an empire which extends from near the equinoctial line to 31 degrees of north latitude: if called upon for a general characteristic of the natives of that empire, I would say that they are mild in their dispositions, polished in their general manners, in their domestic relations kind and affectionate, submissive to authority, and peculiarly attached to their religious tenets and to the observance of the rites and ceremonies prescribed by those tenets: in referring to any distinction in this general characteristic, I should say that the inhabitants of the northern provinces of Hindostan were of a more bold and decided character, and less submissive to authority than those of the southern provinces, but equally attached to the observance of their religious rites and ceremonies.

Do you think that if a free trade were authorised by law between this kingdom and India, and free traders were permitted to go from hence, and to penetrate into the country, and to reside in it at pleasure, such permission would be attended with any mischief, and what, to the peace and happiness of the natives?—I think it would be attended with great detriment to their happiness, from the violent character and disposition of the Europeans, who would be thus probably forced into an intercourse with them, and who are apt to indulge an habitual contempt for their manners, customs, and religious tenets; this would consequently lead, and does actually lead, Europeans of this class, to treat the natives with contumely and insult.

Are you of opinion that the prejudices of the natives are much more likely to be violated by such persons, than by those who are in the service of the Company?— I can have no hesitation in answering that question in the affirmative; the Company's servants are regularly instructed to respect the customs and religious prejudices of the natives, and know that disgrace or punishment would follow any attempt on their part to insult those religious prejudices; this could not be effected in an unrestrained intercourse of Europeans newly arrived in the country.

If a free trade were opened with India, in your opinion would there be any increased demand among the natives of India for European articles or manufactures?—I am decidedly of opinion that if any increase of demand could exist, it would be very gradual, and very inconsiderable for a long period of time.

Have the mass of the population in India either the means or the desire of purchasing any European manufactures?—I am not of opinion that they have any desire, and I am certain that the great body of the people have not the means.

Among the higher ranks of the natives, is not the desire of purchasing European manufactures and commodities extremely limited?—Very limited, and only amongst those who are particularly connected with the European inhabitants.

You having been at the Nizam's court, is not that considered as one of the richest of the native courts in India?—It was considered, during the period I was there, as the court in India which retained most of the old customs, and the greatest degree of ceremony, agreeably to the forms of the Mogul government; the government was supposed also to be rich.

If opulent persons there have a desire for purchasing European manufactures and articles, would they not have an opportunity, under the present system of trade, of gratifying that desire?—They certainly would, from the abundance of such articles at all the principal settlements of the Company's government.

Did you observe any European articles, in the possession of the Nizam, or any of the opulent inhabitants of Hydrabad? — I do not recollect any, except a pair of lustres, which were sent by his present Majesty as a present to the Nizam.

Has it fallen within your knowledge that the Bengal government used every effort in their power to introduce the use of European commodities into the ceded districts of Oude?—It was the particular wish of the governor general lord Wellesley, to give every facility to the commu- nication in trade of the ceded provinces with the neighbouring countries, and to the vent of British commodities in those countries; for this purpose he instituted fairs upon the borders of the Rohilcund country, for barter with the people of Napaul and Serinagur; for the fair of Hurdwar, where immense numbers of people from the northern countries of Cabul and Candahar and the Punjab meet those of the Company's provinces, for purposes of barter and for performing their religious ceremonies, he ordered the commercial resident at Bareily, the nearest station, to be provided with a large assortment of British woollens of every kind, which could be supposed likely to meet the taste of the inhabitants of those northern countries, and ordered the resident to attend them himself to the fair at Hurdwar; this experiment was, I believe, entirely unsuccessful, from the small quantity that could be sold, hardly sufficing to pay the expences of the conveyance.

Can you form any estimate how many persons attend the fair at Hurdwar?—At the annual fairs it is supposed that from two to three hundred thousand are collected; once in twelve years, when particular religious ceremonies are observed there, the number is generally computed to be almost a million of people.

Having stated that many persons from cold countries resort to the fair at Hurdwar, what manufactures are made use of in those cold countries, which prevent the natives of them from purchasing British woollens when offered to them?—The lower ranks of people wear coarse woollens of their own manufacture; and the higher ranks are clothed in shawls, great numbers of which, of a coarse manufacture, are also brought to the fair at Hurdwar.

Are not the natives of India generally a manufacturing people, skilful in manufacturing operations, and likely to provide for themselves whatever manufactures they stand in need of?—They are very much so, and have hardly any, if any, wants from foreign countries.

Have not many of the natives been lately taught European arts, to supply the wants of the Europeans at the presidencies of India?—Many native artisans have been taught by Europeans, and are now settled in every principal town or station; where Europeans reside, and furnish a great proportion of the articles required by Europeans, In the various parts of India in which I you have been, has not the market for European commodities been fully equal to the demand?—I have never found a deficiency in any part of the country where I have been, except perhaps, I may say in Scindiah's camp, where the insecurity of property and the difficulty of conveyance must naturally deter any merchant from carrying such articles.

Is not the present system fully adequate to the supply of any increased demand that may probably arise among the natives of India for European commodities?—In my opinion perfectly adequate.

DAVID VANDERHEYDEN, esq. a member of the House, was examined in his place, as follows:

Mr. Jackson.—Were you in the service of the East India Company?—I was. Five and twenty years, upon the Bengal establishment.—For the first ten or twelve years, according to the custom of the Company's service, I was employed in inferior situations, principally in the revenue department, in the province of Bahar; in 1790, I was appointed collector, judge, and magistrate of the 24 Pergunnahs, a district in the vicinity of Calcutta; in that situation I remained only a few months, when I was appointed by lord Cornwallis a member of the board of revenue, in which situation I remained nearly eight years; upon the insurrection of Vizier Ali, in the province of Benares, and the assassination of Mr. Cherry, I was appointed by my lord Wellesley chief judge of the court of circuit in that district, and agent to the governor general; I remained in that situation about two years, and then was compelled to come to England from ill health. I have been returned about ten years.

Supposing, in consequence of an open trade and free access to every port in India, there should be a considerably increased number of Europeans, indiscriminate as to their pursuits and characters, what effect do you suppose it would produce upon the general British interests in India?—I think it would have a most pernicious effect.

Be pleased to state in what respect you think it would be so pernicious?—From the discordance of the European character from that of the natives, and the contempt and contumely with which the Europeans on their first arrival, and particularly the lower orders, treat the natives.

Do you think that such intercourse would materially affect the happiness of the natives?—I think essentially.

What do you think might be the political consequence of such an intercourse?—I think in that point of view it would have a most pernicious effect, as tending to degrade the European character in their eyes.

What consequence would you apprehend from such degradation of the European character?—I think the consequence must be obvious, when we consider the great disparity of numbers between the Europeans who control there, and the immense population of the country; it can be only by a high estimation of our character, by which our government there can be upheld in strength and pre-eminence.

Do you think that that estimation which you describe as essential to the upholding of the government, might be materially and seriously affected by such intercourse?—I certainly think it would; and I believe in that I concur with every man of any experience who has been there.

Do you think that the sort of usage you apprehend from such an indiscriminate influx of people, might drive the natives to extremities?—I should think it would: in some instances they are a very patient and forbearing people, but I think they would probably have such provocations as would drive them to extremities.

At present, are the British subjects amenable to any but the principal court at the presidency?—They are amenable only to the principal court at Calcutta; the magistrate of the district has the power of apprehending any person, and of sending him to Calcutta, but there his duty terminates.

The station where such offenders are apprehended is frequently, is it not, several hundred miles from the court in which he ought to be tried?—Very frequently five or six hundred, or in some instances nearly a thousand miles.

Supposing the earnings of these people to be, as has been stated, from 3 to 5s. a month, do you think it within a possibility that such injured natives should obtain legal redress?—Certainly not; but it is not unusual, when accidents of this kind happen, for the government to supply the native with the means of proceeding to Calcutta, or at least the magistrate on the spot.

If, from indiscriminate intercourse, the number of offences should increase in proportion, do you think that that mode of redress could continue to be pursued?—Certainly not; it would be attended with such enormous expence and inconvenience, that some other mode must be resorted to.

Be pleased to describe the general nature and constitution of the native courts, such as that over which you yourself presided, as to the laws by which they are governed?—They are chiefly governed by regulations of our own government: if it is meant with respect to criminal cases, the Mahomedan law principally obtains in the courts; but that is modified by regulations of our own government, to render it, as we, conceive, more consonant to natural justice.

Supposing this free trade from every port in the United Kingdom to every port within the limits of the Company's charter, and looking to the line of either coast of the peninsula, do you think it would be possible to prevent such persons as have been described, from gaining admission into the interior?—I think it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible; more especially as so large a portion of the coast of Malabar is not under our authority; but, however, even in that portion which is under our authority, I think it would be scarcely possible, in the case supposed, that of an unlimited trade, to keep Europeans from getting into the interior of the country.

Supposing new adventurers to succeed in getting into the interior of the country, do you apprehend that any political evil might arise therefrom?—I should think very great political evils.

Be pleased to state such evils as you apprehend would arise?—From their intrigues at native courts, if they made their way, and in fomenting disturbances.

Do you think that such persons, supposing their object to be that of military or political service, might not find secret or open encouragement at such native courts? — Yes, I should imagine they would; there have been various instances of Europeans in a low situation of life, getting into the interior of the country, and rising to situations of great importance.

Do you suppose that this misconduct which you have apprehended towards the natives, would be in some degree dependent upon the station in life of the person who should gain access to India?—Undoubtedly; a man of education and re- spectability who might find his way there, would be more likely to conduct himself well than a desperate adventurer.

If, for instance, the supposed ingress should consist of seamen, tradesmen, and artificers, do you apprehend that, from their ignorance of the language and manners of the natives, those dangers of insults and oppressions towards the natives would be in proportion?—They would be likely to commit great disorders.

Supposing such open trade to take place, do you apprehend it would lead to any materially increased demand for European articles, for the purposes of the consumption of the natives?—I should apprehend not; their manners, customs, religion, the whole state of their society, preclude the probability of any increase of the consumption of European manufactures; and above all, the slender circumstances of the mass of the people render it, I should almost say, impossible.

Does this poverty of circumstances, to that degree which precludes the purchase of European articles, apply to much the greater proportion of the natives?—By far the greater proportion; almost entirely.

During your residence in India, did yon observe any progressive advances in the natives towards assimilation to European habits or manners?—None whatever in the upper parts of the country; in Calcutta, in some very slight degree, but to no extent.

Do you mean exclusively among the higher orders?—Exclusively, the others are precluded from their narrow circumstances, and indeed from their inclination.

Among those who possessed wealth, in what way did they generally direct their expenditure; was it towards the purchase of European articles?—Very little; their taste does not lie that way at all; in marriages, in religious ceremonies, in supporting religious establishments, in charities from the same motives; those are among the principal modes in which the Hindoo natives of rank expend any considerable portions of their property.

Have any material proportion of the higher orders showed any disposition towards the purchase or consumption of European articles?—Very few.

Were those few, generally speaking, such as resided at the different presidencies?—At Calcutta, the nabob of Oude also expended large sums in the purchase of European articles.

Can you say whether, during the time that you were in India, there was always a full and ample supply of European articles?—I imagine quite abundant; I resided for many years at Calcutta, and I never heard the least complaint of a want of those articles, and I believe upon very reasonable terms.

Will you name such of the European articles as the natives were in the habit of purchasing?—There were instances of natives purchasing an European carriage, but those were amongst the highest orders; occasionally some glasses, or a lustre; I think those are nearly all the articles.

Do you know whether there has been an increasing disposition in the Indian artificers to manufacture articles for European use?—Yes, they are themselves very ingenious, and excellent imitators; and they have been also taught by European artificers; they manufacture various articles, such as carriages, furniture, plate, and various other articles, very nearly to approach those manufactured in Europe, in point of excellence.

Supposing, in consequence of the increased facility of visiting India, that an increased number of artificers should go there, and looking to the immense disproportion of the price of labour between India and this country, do you apprehend that in time the necessity of import of British manufactures, might not thereby be in a great degree superseded?—I should think it would annually diminish from that cause.

Looking, to any probable increase of European population or the Indian want, do you believe that the present system properly regulated, will afford as full and ample means for the supply of European manufactures as can be required for the market of India?—I think the system as it exists at present, is fully ample for that purpose, I mean for the supply of European commodities.

Looking to so general and so indiscriminate an accession of Europeans as has been described, do you, according to your experience, believe that it would be consistent with the security of the British empire in India, or with the happiness of the natives?—I certainly think it would not.

Do you apply that to both branches of the proposition?—Undoubtedly that was implied in the answer.

GUY LENOX PRENDERGAST, esq. was called in, and examined as follows:

Mr. Grant.]—Are not you a civil servant of the East India Company on the Bombay establishment?—I am.

How long have you resided under the presidency of Bombay?—About 17 years.—Principally in Guzerat.—I first went to Guzerat as resident at Baroach, a city belonging to Scindiah, and remained in that capacity for seven years, until the commencement of the warfare in Guzerat in 1802, when I accompanied the army to the field as paymaster; and in 1805 I was appointed judge and magistrate, and revenue commissioner for settling the revenue affairs of Baroach and its dependencies, then newly conquered, in which situations I remained until about three years ago, when I returned to England.—During the time I resided at Baroach as resident, I had no other society whatever but the natives, and had an opportunity of intercourse with almost all ranks of them; I think I had a full opportunity of becoming acquainted with their habits, characters, and language.

State whether the manners, habits, and institutions of the natives, are not such as seem strange to Europeans?—Very dissimilar and strange.

Are you able to say whether, in point of mental or bodily vigour, the great majority of native population be equal to Europeans in general?—In bodily vigour certainly very much inferior; in mental capacity, in general, I do not think they are inferior.

Have you observed in Europeans unacquainted with the national peculiarities of the natives, a tendency to insult their prejudices or make light of their peculiarities?—I think it is remarkable that on Europeans first arriving in India, they are disposed to treat the natives, their religious ceremonies, and their prejudices, with a considerable degree of contempt and derision, probably arising in a great measure from the description of persons who get about Europeans on their first arrival, being generally those out of employ, and not of the best character.

Supposing a free ingress of Europeans to be permitted into those ports of British India with which you are conversant, and a free intercourse to take place between; the Europeans so introduced and the natives, what effects would you apprehend to the welfare of the natives, and the stability of the British government?—I think such unrestrained admission of Europeans into the Guzerat country would be productive of the greatest possible disorder; the local authorities, as at present constituted, would be totally unable to controul or regulate them; they would be complained of in a variety of instances for offences, the magnitude of which, as affecting the native prejudices, it would be very difficult to explain to such Europeans, who would thence be led to believe that the local authorities encouraged frivolous and vexatious complaints against them; this would lead them in return to treat the local authorities with every mark of personal disrespect they could with impunity, and they would thereby be lowered in the eyes of the natives, who, on the other hand, would feel the incapacity of the local authorities to afford them that protection they had a right to from the government; general disaffection would prevail, and a continuance of those causes increase that disaffection probably into insurrection.

From the observations which you have made upon the character of the British residents, can you say whether there prevails among them a considerable degree of that mutual and national fellow feeling which is known so generally to characterize British subjects residing in a foreign country, and among a population of singular habits?—I think that national feeling does exist.

Can you state whether there is any part of the Malabar coast not subject to British jurisdiction?—From Goa up to the mouths of the Indus is upwards of 800 miles, the whole of which, excepting within about 200 miles, belongs entirely to the native powers; and within those 200 miles, excepting Bombay, there is only Surat and Baroach belonging to the English, and those parts belonging to the English are divided in many places from each other by the native territory.

Supposing frequent resort of the vessels of private British adventurers to the Malabar coast, would it not be practicable for the crews of those vessels to effect a landing on some part of that coast, and to penetrate into the interior of the country?—No doubt; in the fine season, almost all along that coast crews might land, and proceed almost in any direction they pleased.

Are you not of opinion that very great abuses might result from the occurrence of such an event?—The greatest possible abuses and disorder.—The contempt which such description of Europeans are generally disposed to hold the natives in, might naturally be expected to lead them into considerable excesses, where they were under no description of control; insults to the native women, intrusion upon the houses and pagodas of the natives; all of which would be resented by the natives, and where they would have no authority to apply to they would have recourse to force.

Have you had an opportunity of observing how far there prevails among the natives of that quarter of India with which you are acquainted, a taste for the use of European commodities?—I have not observed any disposition or taste among the natives of Guzerat for European articles.

Can you state, whether, within the period of your Indian experience, there has been a growing taste for European commodities among the higher orders of the native population?—I think they have been perfectly stationary ever since I have had any intercourse with them.

Are persons in menial situations found to imbibe European tastes, or affect European fashions?—I do not think they are. Have the native inhabitants of Bombay itself copied in any degree European manners and fashions?—The Hindoo and Mahomedan inhabitants of Bombay I do not think have; the Parsees of Bombay have a good deal copied the European manners, such as riding in carriages, sitting on chairs, and dining on tables, furnishing their houses; but this is but a small number, and principally those connected with the European houses of agency, and the very opulent.

Whatever improvement may hereafter take place in the condition of the Indian people, is there any rational prospect of such an advancement in their means of purchase, as shall place European commodities generally within their reach?—I do not think there is; and if they were within their reach, I do not think they shew any disposition to possess them.

Has the Bombay government, within your knowledge, shewn an anxiety to promote the consumption of European commodities among the natives under its supervision?—It has long been an anxious object with the Bombay government to obtain a vent for European articles in the interior of the territory under Bombay, and through them up into the Scind country: I was particularly myself spoken to on that subject, when I had charge of the factory at Baroach, and made every enquiry of those natives I conceived best qualified to give information on that subject, and the result of those enquiries left no reason to believe that the thing was practicable.

Do you conceive that the present system of trade is sufficient to meet any iucrease which may take place in the demand for European commodities among the natives of India?—I think it is quite sufficient.

The chairman was directed to report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the better relief of the poor debtors confined in the King's-bench, Fleet, and Marshalsea. He observed, that the humanity of parliament had now for many years been directed to the object of improving the condition of the prisoners in our jails. Formerly, there had often been no prison allowance for prisoners confined for debt even in our county jails, an evil of which Mr. Howard had complained: prison allowances had, however, become general in our county prisons; and in the last year an Act had passed of which the object was to afford an allowance of sixpence a day, at the discretion of the magistrate, to prisoners for debt under mesne process in pri- sons not being county prisons. That Bill had supplied the means of affording allowances to the poor prisoners in the Marshalsea, the King's-bench, and the Fleet; but it had done this in a manner very inconvenient and burthensome to the parishes in which these prisons were situated, and consequently a Bill was now before the House which had for its object to except those parishes from the operation of the Bill in question. He had felt it to be his duty to devise some other mode of furnishing what was clearly necessary to the support of the prisoners confined in the three prisons just mentioned. These means easily suggested themselves: the 43d of Elizabeth had directed, that the magistrates of every county should annually consider what was the sum necessary to be supplied for two of those prisons, and that each county should furnish at the least 40s. a year for their support; which had accordingly been annually transmitted to them. His intention was simply to increase that allowance,—to increase it, however, with some reference to the comparative population of the several counties, probably taking only about 10l. from the smaller counties, and enlarging the sum considerably in the counties of Middlesex and Surrey. He trusted that a sum would thus be supplied, which being distributed at the discretion of the magistrates, might afford all the necessary relief. The House might possibly recollect, that some few years ago a death occurred in the Marshalsea, which was ascribed to the want of food. On examination the rumour proved to be unfounded. It must, however, be painful to the House to allow even of suspicions of this sort arising out of a defective system of prison allowance. It was true, that a trifling sum, consisting partly of charity and partly of the small allowances from the counties which he had spoken of, was now divided among, those prisoners, who declared themselves on what was called the poor's-box. The number of these, however, was extremely small, often only five, or six, or eight out of four or five hundred; and one condition of their participating in these charities was the degrading circumstance of becoming literally beggars by holding the poor's box, or standing at a grate to call out for alms. He wished to afford relief without subjecting them to this mortification. He thought, however, that every person benefiting by the fund ought to take an oath that he was not worth more than a certain sum. Perhaps some distinction also should be taken between prisoners for debts amounting to larger and smaller sums, In all cases the discretion of the magistrate ought to be exercised. If the sum raised by the means he had mentioned should prove more than adequate, the surplus, he thought, might be given to Bethlehem Hospital, an institution which had lately received some aid from parliament on the ground of its being in some sense national. This disposal of the surplus was in conformity with the Act of Elizabeth, which had directed the surplus to be paid to hospitals and other charities in the counties. He studiously endeavoured to avoid all novelty in the measure he proposed. He followed the general spirit of the clauses in the 43d Elizabeth, which he proposed to amend. He was anxious not to exercise a mistaken humanity. In the Fleet prison, and in the King's-bench, be knew that it was necessary to guard against imposture, In the Marshalsea, he believed that the allowance was as much wanted as in any county prison, the prisoners there being of a lower order. His intention was to limit the aid of sixpence a day to prisoners under mesne process. The subject had been mentioned by him to some authorities in the other House, and particularly to the Lord Chief Justice of the King's-bench, from whom he had received encouragement; and he trusted, that when the Bill was printed, it would be approved of by the House.

Leave was given to bring in the Bill.

objected to the power that was given to a committee of that House, to interfere with devises to a more distant relation than nephews and nieces. He really thought that the Bill would throw almost insurmountable difficulties on election committees, and that it would be better to take another principle for preventing the splitting votes, by not allowing a vote to any one that had a less interest than forty shillings annually.

allowed that there must be difficulties thrown on the Committee, but he saw still stronger objections to the limit which had been stated. In the early times of our history, a freehold of 40s. annual value, was the qualification to vote for a country. If the proper qualification were now to be fixed, perhaps it would be a different sum. But in boroughs there never had been such a limitation, either as to value or tenure. It would be, therefore, altering the whole constitution of the boroughs of the kingdom now to say, for the first time, that no man should vote who had not a freehold of 40s. If the House chose by an arbitrary act to alter the constitution of the boroughs, he did not see why 40s. should be fixed upon as the proper qualification to vote.

said, that there was certainly at present no general limitation as to value or tenure, to entitle a person to vote in boroughs. He thought, however, that parliament might easily devise such limitations as would remedy many palpable abuses.

spoke against the clause as it stood.

conceived that this Bill was the most objectionable measure ever, perhaps, submitted to parliament; for it proposed to introduce quite a new principle of legislation, by subjecting wills to the decision of a committee of the House of Commons. Suppose a will should be declared good by a court of law or equity, or by both, and pronounced bad by a committee of that House, he would ask whether such a thing were ever heard of before? Yet the case was quite probable, if this Bill passed into a law. The Bill professed only a desire to take away the vote created by a will for splitting votes; but by its enactments it would go to take away the property also. Thus it would not only annul the vote, but the bequest, and give a destination to the property, different from that which the devisor intended, which he conceived to exceed the real view of the Bill and its authors. He therefore recommended a postponement of the motion, in order that the matter might be more maturely considered, and the anomaly he had mentioned removed.

saw nothing anomalous in the arrangement pointed out by the right hon. gentleman. On the contrary, he asserted that the provision alluded to was quite parallel to the principle of the statute of Mortmain, which not only annulled the bequest, but made a disposition of the property different from the intention of the testator. This Bill, the hon. and learned gentleman also maintained, was perfectly analogous to the provisions in the statute of William, respecting fraudulent conveyances, with a view to create occasional votes.

The Amendments were agreed to, and on the motion that the Bill be engrossed,

, referring to the arguments of the hon. and learned gentleman who spoke last, observed, that there was this material difference between a conveyance and a will, that the person conveying property for the creation of occasional votes, would most probably be alive, and his property would revert to him upon the votes being set aside, whereas the testator would be no more, while his testament would be annulled by the vote of a committee of the House of Commons, against perhaps, as he before said, the decisions of both courts of law and equity.

contended that the Bill had no tendency to do more than it professed to have in view. Its object was to abolish fraudulent votes, and it could only effect that object by striking at the root and substance of the fraud which created such votes.

The Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.