Friday, April 9, 1813.

The House having again resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House to consider further of the Affairs of the East India Company, Mr. Lushington in the Chair,

WILLIAM BRUCE SMITH, esq. was called in. The following is the substance of his evidence:

Mr. Adam.] How long have you resided in India?—Above 40 years, in the northern boundaries of Bengal: as a merchant, and in reclaiming waste lands. I dealt principally in timber and indigo.—I had constant opportunities of becoming acquainted with the character of the native Indians.

Have you had an opportunity of endeavouring to promote the sale of British manufactures, or of European goods, in that country?—I had no opportunities; they were in no request. I have made endeavours but without success.—An investment of glass and Wedgwood's ware was sent to me by a gentleman in Cal- cutta, to endeavour to sell for him, which I could not accomplish, and was obliged to return. There was no demand for them, the natives did not require them.

Had you, during your 40 years residence in India, any opportunity of seeing whether the natives made any progress towards an alteration of manners or customs?—I have seen no alteration during the time I have been in that country, or very little.

Can you state the ordinary amount of a labourer's wages per day or per week?—One anna a day was the usual wages, the sixteenth part of half a crown.

Do those wages afford the means of purchasing any thing beyond their daily food and their necessary raiment?—I believe not, nothing more than that.

In what manner do the ordinary agriculturalists in India clothe themselves and their families?—A piece of linen cloth is generally the most of their apparel, one piece for their head and one piece for their body. I never saw the smallest alteration.

Is there any disposition on the part of the labouring manufacturer to become the purchaser of European commodities or of British goods?—I think not, they could be of no use to him.

Have you reason to believe that an unrestrained influx of British or European subjects would be likely to disturb the harmony of the natives, and the government in India?—I think it might: from their being unrestrained in their proceedings.

Do you consider that the present mode of supplying the Indian market with British or European commodities, is adequate to the demand?—Fully adequate, I think.

Do the wealthy Indians apply any part of their superfluous wealth in the purchase of European or British commodities?—With very few exceptions, I believe they purchase none at all. They apply their superfluous wealth in then-own mode of state; a great number of servants, entertainments, marriages and deaths, those are the principal.

(Examined by the Committee.)

What do you imagine will practically be the consequence of the agents of the British merchants going into the interior of India, under a legislative enactment, to push the enterprize and capital of the British merchants, as far as he may conceive it may be pushed, in regard to the natives?—I think it might be attended with very serious consequences.

What proportion of the population do you imagine would be able, it willing, to purchase articles of British produce or manufacture, supposing those articles to find their way to India at the least possible expence?—They must alter very much in their modes of life, to use the articles of European manufacture at all; I have seen no alteration, in the long time I have been among them.

In the cold weather, do you not think that the cheaper British woollen manufactures, and some other articles, might find a vent there?—They might find a vent, if at a very reduced price; if they were very coarse and very cheap. The natives quilt cotton stuff to keep them warm in the winter, and use blankets of their own manufacture.

Could the lowest and the cheapest kind of the British woollens be sold as cheap as their quilted cottons and their own manufactures?—I have never seen any that were so cheap as their own clothing.

Does it come within your knowledge, whether there are, or are not, British artisans and manufacturers settled at the presidencies, who work and produce many of those articles that used formerly only to be brought from Britain?—A great many in Calcutta, and at other stations in the country.—In some instances those articles are better adapted for the climate, but in general inferior.—Always cheaper than the European articles,—but the articles from Great Britain have always the preference.—At the presidencies of Calcutta and Madras I observed the shops full of European articles, completely full.—There are daily auctions, but generally of articles that are damaged, or sold as the property of bankrupts.

The Hon. HUGH LINDSAY was called in, and examined to the following purport:

Mr. Adam.]—Are you not a captain or commander of a ship in the Company's service?—I am. I have been seven voyages as a commander in the Company's service, six to India and one to China.

State what market you have found in India for your articles?—On two different voyages I had tolerably good markets, the others very indifferent indeed.

To what port or presidency did yon sail with those articles in which the mar- kets were indifferent?—To Madras and Bengal.

Can you state whether the want of a market, or the defect of market, was owing to the defect of purchasers, or to the market being overstocked; or to both?—I think from the market being overstocked.—I have frequently requested the native merchants to consider whether there might not be some new article that I might bring from Europe for them; their reply was, that there was nothing they could think of as a new article that they could desire me to bring, and that their retail was almost entirely for Europeans.

Do you consider that the present mode of supplying European and British articles to the settlements in India is sufficient to answer the demand?—I consider it more than sufficient, to afford a profit to the people who carry the investments to India.

Have you had occasion to consider whether the effect of opening the trade and exportation to India would be such as to tend to the improvement of the market for British and European goods in that country?—I should consider it would tend to a great loss in the markets in India, and that no persons would benefit by it but the auctioneers.

What are the articles of importation from the presidencies of Madras and Bengal, in which you have particularly dealt?—Piece-goods, raw-silk, silk piece-goods, indigo, and a few drugs.—I do not consider that the habits of the natives are likely to create any consumption of European articles beyond what they have been in the habit of using for the time past.—In 1801 I was senior captain of a fleet of eight sail of ships, and in our voyage to Bengal I went in with the fleet to Acheen Head, in the island of Sumatra, for refreshments; and although we had, I believe, on board that fleet, every article that is exported from this country to the East, yet we could not find among the whole ships any article in which we could pay for the cattle we received from the Acheenese by the way of barter, and we were obliged to open our stock dollars to pay for the refreshments we obtained there.

(Examined by the Committee.)

Does it come within your knowledge, whether there are, or not, British artisans and manufacturers now settled at the presidencies, who work and produce many of those articles that were formerly brought from Great Britain?—There are, particularly coach-makers, carriage-builders; in Calcutta they build carriages as well as they do in London, I think, nearly.—They make exceedingly good boots and shoes, and a variety of articles, and there are a great many other artisans, who work exceedingly well, in Calcutta.—They are not quite so good as the same articles brought from Great Britain, but they are very much cheaper, except in the glut of a market, when European goods are sold at 50 per cent. less than they cost in London.

Is it not then probable, that in the course of no very long time the increase of those artisans and manufacturers may prevent the importation altogether of British articles, except some very choice ones, that may be made use of by those Europeans who can afford them?—I think it very probable indeed.

Were the cargoes always sold?—Yes; sometimes at a very considerable loss; and I have no hesitation in saying, that if I had never traded in articles for export from this country, I should have been richer than I am at this moment; upon the whole, I think I have lost by my outward-bound investment.

LESTOCK WILSON, esq. was called in, and examined as follows:

Mr. Adam.]—Were you in the Company's shipping service?—I was, 34 years, and made eleven or twelve voyages; five as a commander.—I retired from that service in 1799, and have since been engaged in a house of trade to the East Indies.—I never was at Bengal but once in my life, in 1767; I have been twice at Madras, and three times at Bombay, and the rest at China.

Could you judge whether the market was overstocked with British and European commodities at those presidencies?—I certainly have seen it overstocked, when the goods would not fetch prime cost and I have seen it otherwise.

Do you consider that up to this time, and during all the time you have been employed as an agent for Indian importation and exportation, the means afforded by the Company for exportation of articles to India were sufficient?—I should think they were.

Can you state any particular instances in which you have found it difficult to obtain the means of completing a shipment of goods to India?—I am under the greatest difficulty at this moment, having a ship which is to return to India, and finding it extremely difficult indeed to find commodities to put into her that are likely to produce their prime cost; and if the Company had not relaxed a little, and given us leave to carry out goods, which it was in their option to do or not, we could not have sent back the ship at all, except in ballast: the fact is, that there are but four articles in her cargo within my recollection, which are the produce of this country or its dependencies, namely, empty glass bottles, and I believe there may be 20 or 30 tons of English iron, there may be as much Swedish, there are about 20 or 30 casks of porter or ale, not chusing to risk more, and some chalk; those are the only articles of the produce of this country that we chose to risk our money in. I consider those the only articles that are likely to bring a profit in an Indian market, at present.

(Examined by the Committee)

What sum would you wish to invest in goods by the ship you allude to as about to sail for India?—Not more than twelve or fifteen thousand pounds.

Do you intend this as a remittance to India, or as a speculation from which you look to a profit in the first instance?—It is a speculation to India certainly, to be returned in some way or other; perhaps it may be drawn for, perhaps it may be sent back in a commodity, perhaps it may be lent to other people; there are various ways, and the consignments may come to our own house.

You are no doubt aware that the staple articles of iron, steel, copper, and lead would generally, if not always, yield a saving remittance to a very great extent?—I certainly am aware of the contrary from experience, having sent copper, and lost considerably by it.

Have you experienced the same loss upon iron, and steel, and lead, as upon copper?—No, I do not know that I have; I have lost as a commander, upon the aggregate, by the outward bound investment; some of those things I may have gained by, and some I may have lost by.

Have you observed a greater glut of European articles in India, than there generally is of most articles of trade in this country?—If I am to look to the late disastrous times, with the continent closed up, and the Vast influx of Indian articles here unsaleable, certainly not; but still there have been times when there has been a very great glut of European articles in India.

You have mentioned, that in making up a cargo you were going to send out now to India, you would have been under great difficulties, but for permission of the Company; what are the articles which the Company prevent from being exported by the private traders?—Strictly speaking, we have a right to export nothing but what is the growth or manufacture of this country or Ireland; no foreign commodities: they have allowed us to carry out brandy, which we could not do as a matter of right; logs of mahogany which are to be manufactured by cabinet-makers, and a few articles besides.

They have not mahogany or those kinds of wood in India?—I do not know that they have; I understand it is a good commodity to send to Bengal for the purpose of being manufactured there, and therefore we are sending it; whether it will prove so we shall see in the result.

WILLIAM FAIRLIE, esq. was called in, and examined as follows:

Mr. Adam.]—Did you not reside for many years, and how many, at Bengal as a merchant?—I resided thirty years at Bengal, as a merchant and agent. Entirely in Calcutta.

Do you think the consumption of European commodities in India rests with the English who are settled there in the service of the Company and otherwise, or whether the native Indians are customers to any extent for those commodities?—There is a very small consumption for the natives, they are chiefly for the Europeans in the Company's service, in the army and civil service, and Others that are settled in the country out of the Company's service. I have endeavoured to import some articles, cloths, and some few other articles for them, but to a small extent.—The wants of the natives being so few for European articles is the chief reason, and the greater part of the lower orders are unable to purchase them. There is not any general tendency among the higher orders to purchase them; some of the richer natives in Calcutta have expended money in that way upon their houses, and some articles of European manufacture, glass-ware, and some few showy articles of that kind, otherwise there is very little required by them.

Have you found that the supply of British and European articles, as it is now afforded to Calcutta, has been perfectly sufficient for the demand?—Fully equal, and indeed I should think greatly exceeded it, from the loss I have known almost invariably to be sustained by the importation of articles from Europe; and for these 4 or 5 years past, particularly, there has been a loss upon almost everyone of the cargoes that were imported.

Have you any experience in the use that the native Indians make of English broad cloths or long ells?—There is a pretty large consumption of the coarser kinds of broad cloth, in the upper part of the country, where the climate is colder, and a small quantity used in Calcutta, by those who can afford to purchase it.

Do you think that there is any likelihood of any particular articles of commerce being forced more into the market by opening a free trade?—I do not think that any large importation could be disposed of, but to a loss; but certainly in the consumption of some articles there might be in time a gradual increase.

Have you had occasion to observe whether the natives, who have been taught to manufacture and fabricate those articles manufactured at Calcutta, have been adroit and expert in the performance of them?—They are almost wholly manufactured by the natives; one European carpenter may perhaps employ 50 or 100 natives, with not an European among them; the same with the shoemakers, and also with plate; in fact there are not many European tradesmen who work themselves; tailors there are a few, but in comparison not one in fifty, the persons that are employed are natives. The artisans receive, according to their abilities, from perhaps 7s. 6d. to 20s. or 25s. according to their expertness, a month.

Have you had any opportunity of observing whether the native Indians have come into the habit of using such articles as have been lately specified?—I know of few or none; the richer part of them, some few of them have carriages for show, to please the Europeans chiefly, I believe; and they have for their houses, some of their principal halls, some glass ware, and chairs and tables. [Withdrew.

The Chairman reported progress and asked leave to sit again.

A Petition of several booksellers of the city of Edinburgh, was presented and read; taking notice of the petition of the booksellers and publishers of London and Westminster, stating the expence and grievance which will be sustained by the publishers of books, if, in consequence of a recent determination in a court of law, they should be compelled to deliver eleven copies of all works printed and published; and setting forth,

"That the petitioners the booksellers of Edinburgh, humbly submit that the compulsatory delivery of eleven copies of all books that shall be printed and published will, in many cases, be a heavy burthen on authors and proprietors of books, that it will operate generally to the discouragement of literature, and will particularly tend to diminish the publication of large and valuable works, and that the petitioners Will be greatly aggrieved thereby; and that these works are frequently of great importance to science and learning, and it is usual to print no more than in all probability will be sold, and therefore the delivery of so many copies will be a serious diminution of that fair remuneration which authors and proprietors hope to receive as an indemnity for their labour and risk in composing and publishing the same; a great many works are published by authors themselves at a considerable expence, and with only the prospect of a slow and uncertain sale, but such expence will be considerably enhanced, and their remuneration diminished, by the delivery of eleven copies gratuitously, and therefore this burthen will in all probability operate to prevent many useful works from being undertaken; and that, in evidence of the very grievous injury which the petitioners would sustain from the compulsatory delivery of eleven copies of all the new works published by them, the petitioners are prepared to establish that upon six books recently published, or now in the course of publication, in Edinburgh, the expence would amount to no less than 1,426l. 8s. 6d. sterling; and that the petitioners also humbly submit that the delivery of five copies to Scottish libraries is too large a proportion, and that the delivery of copies to one or two libraries in Scotland will be sufficient for the encouragement of its literature and science; and also that the termination of copy-right at the end of 14 years, in case the author should not then he alive, is too short a period of copy-right for the present state of literature; and that the civilized nations of Europe are now striving to excel each other in important and costly publications, and the great expences which are now risked in most publications, and the labour and talents which they require, cannot be adequately repaid or remunerated in so short a period as fourteen years; and praying, that the House would be pleased to take these matters into consideration, doing in the same as they may see right."

Ordered to lie upon the table.

On the motion of sir Samuel Romilly, the House resolved into a Committee on the Bill for altering the punishment in cases of conviction for high treason; and, after some conversation, in which sir S. Romilly, sir W. Garrow, sir Thos. Plomer, sir Charles Mordaunt, Mr. Yorke, and sir J. Newport took part, the clauses of the Bill were agreed to, upon an understanding that the debate on the principle of the Bill should take place at a future period.

The House having resumed, and sir Samuel Romilly having moved that the Report should be received on Monday,